View Full Version : Dirk, a classic debate
03-12-2001, 12:36 PM
I think it's obvious and that we should recognize the fact that Dirk has taken over as the Mavs #1 offensive scoring threat.
I think it's obvious that on any given night, any one of our Big Four can take over as the Mavs #1 offensive scoring threat i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif
03-12-2001, 01:26 PM
I agree with you DJ but there's no doubt in my mind that Dirk will be our main offensive threat for years to come. Just wait until he developes a better low post game. He's be unstopable(if he isn't already).
LAMOO15, welcome to the board. Be sure to go Here (http://www.dallas-mavs.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=29) to tell them who told you about this place.
That would be me incase you've forgotten already i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif .
03-12-2001, 02:16 PM
I know that any of the following; nash, dirk, finley, howard, and even eisley can lead the Mavs any night in scoring. But, on a night in night out basis, Dirk is the man. He's 21 or 22, he'll only get better, alot better. Finley is getting close to his peak, but Dirk still has alot of time and room to grow as a player. As he continues to develop his low post game, he will become one of the most dominating offensive threats in the game. He could realistically get to the point to where he averages 28 points a game. One thing that could keep him from reaching such gaudy numbers is that the Mavs are becoming more and more talented, which leads to less shots for all
03-12-2001, 02:46 PM
As soon as Dirk can consistently post up smaller defenders in the post and score with his back to the basket, he is going to be relatively unstoppable... He is already pretty unstoppable from the perimeter when he is hitting his jumpers- that's when we get to see him driving and dunking because opposing players get really afraid of the three pointer after he hits one or two...
03-12-2001, 03:19 PM
It's hard to believe how fast Dirk's gotten comfortable in the NBA. Just two years ago he was considered a draft bust. Now he is one of the most promising players in the league.
The think that amazes me the most about Nowitzki is that he has the ability to be an All-Star at three positions. The list of players who could do that is very short.
And he probably won't mature into his full game until he's 27 or 28.
03-12-2001, 04:28 PM
For the last year and a half, you could just see his improvement week by week... The way he just picked up the knack of rebounding this season really shows how much better he can get... I see a very frightening turn-around jumper in the lane in his near future... That was one of Kiki's moves, and Croshere (Kiki's old student) tries to force that shot all the time...
03-13-2001, 12:11 AM
#1 scoring threat - #1 defensive problems
03-13-2001, 08:20 AM
Did you know that last year, the mavs opponents 2-guard actually scored more points when playing the Mavs than what Michael finley scored?
I'm sure you didn't know that, did you?
Yes, the Mavs have problems on defense but most of them come from penetration by other teams guards.
You know what's amazing is how great of a scorer everyone say Dirk is, however the question I have is would he be as great a scorer if you take Finley off the court? I would be willing to bet he wouldn't. I think he's a Scottie Pippen but better than Pippen ever was as a scoring threat.
That may be true, but keep in mind that Dirk is only 21 and has really only been playing for about two years. Unlike guys like Pippen, Dirk's never played college ball, so just imagine how good he'll be by the time he's 25! He's just starting to blossom..give him time i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif Finley's still the man, but I really believe Dirk will surpass him (in terms of pure skill) sometime in the next couple years.
I'm not sure about that one, I could never see myself choosing Dirk as an option before Mike. HOWEVER, don't get me wrong because I think Dirk is GREAT. I think he should have been on the All-Star team, I think he's one of the top power forwards in the league. However just like Pippen, once you take another Michael out of the picture, statistic wise he's going to improve however leading a team entails more than just scoring and rebounding etc. etc. Don't you think? In my opinion all of the intangibles define the great ones from the good ones.
I agree with what you're saying, but don't you think it's possible that Dirk will shed his Pippen-like role and develop into a superstar-caliber player sometime in the next 3-5 years? Finley's already reached his max potential imo (which isn't a bad thing!), but Dirk's ceiling has yet to be determined. The one thing that Finley has over Dirk right now is maturity and team leadership. But again, Dirk's only 21 and these things will undoubtedly come in time. Finley will be the team's leader for as long as he dons the Mavs jersey, but I believe the day will come when Dirk becomes the team's top player and number one option. The fact that we're already comparing him to Scottie Pippen this early in his career is quite telling.
Well while I'm actually a Pippen fan so I see what you're saying about it being a great thing that we're comparing Dirk to Pippen so early in his career. Do I think the sky is the limit for Dirk yes, but I disagree with you in the sense that Finley has reached his potential. I think he still has much more growing as well. Someday Dirk will be that option, however what I need to see is how he handles the pressure of being the number one option. A team comes into to each game and put their toughest defender on Finley while Dirk doesn't get that matchup. NOW a lot of that has to do with the mismatch that he presents, which is also what makes him so great. He'll never get a great defender on him mostly because how many 6'11" versatile forwards are in the NBA? So he can exploit that.
I guess to answer your question as long as Finley is there, I think he'll always be second fiddle. If Finley leaves and Dirk proves he can carry the team, he'll be the man in eyes.
Finley is 28 and has been playing competitive organized ball for ten years. He's in the prime of his career and imo has just about started to plateau (skill-wise). Nevertheless, the beauty of the whole Fin-Dirk relationship is that Dirk is the complete opposite of Kobe Bryant i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif He recognizes the fact that this is Finley's team and is content with that.
In the end, however, I think Dirk has a shot at superstardom, something Finley probably won't achieve. I love Fin, but guys like Shaq, Duncan, and Garnett are clearly on a totally different level.
BTW, why don't you sign up here rather then post anonymously? I like chatting with fans who know their stuff and stick to their beliefs i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif
I don't know how to sign up, I would like to.
Just click the "join" tab along the top of the screen. It takes just a few seconds to sign up i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif
03-13-2001, 04:48 PM
Sweet, I'm in now, I have an identity.
Big Boy Laroux
03-13-2001, 05:44 PM
Ok, the thruth of the matter is, these two need each other. Dirk blossoms when fin draws double-teams. fin thrives if they double dirk. Why does someone HAVE TO BE THE MAN!? look what's happened to LA and all their bickering. It starts with the fans, then it gets into the players' egos. We should just be happy that these two great players are both playing for our beloved mavs, and that together, they can bring us to the promised land...
they're both studs, and the complement each other extremely well. It's just like all those people who argued that kobe would be the best player in the world if he didn't have to play with shaq, yet fail to realize that most of kobe's opportunities come because of shaq's presence.
Fin + Dirk + Nash = S-U-C-C-E-S-S
03-13-2001, 06:04 PM
I don't fail to realize that Kobe would NOT be great without Shaq. I'm not one of those people. Also, I do believe they're both studs, I'm just saying before I'm willing to say Dirk can come night in and night out on a consistent basis (longer than a year and a half) then I'll be willing to say he's an option before Finley is. However you're right about one thing, they both compliment each other well and I am glad there's no bickering like the Lakers squad.
Big Boy Laroux
03-13-2001, 06:11 PM
yeah, and i think we may be arguing the same thing here. I think Dirk is awesome, but i don't think he's taken over this team, nor will he for some time. i just think these arguments are pointless. personally, i think labeling dirk as the savior of our franchise may be too much pressure for the young german.
Of course we'd all rather have Fin play consistently night-in and night-out at this point! He's been in the league FAR longer then Dirk, and like I said, has played 10+ yrs of organized competitive ball. Compare this with Dirk's two years of pro ball and ZERO years of college ball. With time, Dirk WILL become the better player, but for the time being, no one is disputing Finley's role as team leader and go-to guy status.
I agree BBL. We should all just be happy we have guys of this caliber on the team, willing to play together and unselfishly.
03-14-2001, 12:53 AM
I say Dirk should get into the rap business. Sure he would suck but who wouldn't buy a CD of a German guy trying to rap. I would find it very funny.
03-14-2001, 08:11 AM
Dirk is 21. He's a better scoring threat than Finley is right now. Finley is arguably at the height of his career based on age. Dirk is a much better shooter (2 point percentage, 3 point percentage, and free throw percentage). Dirk's inside game is getting better by the week. He's also driving to the basket more than Finley does
Honestly, I don't think it's Finley's presence that enhances dirks performance. It probably has more to do with Steve Nash than Finley. Obviously, the big four all feed off each other. There is one reason why Finley would not come back and sign a long term contract for the Mavs. That would be because he realizes that by next year he WON'T be the top dog on the team. But, since Finley is a team guy, I do believe he will sign a long term deal with the Mavs. He wants to win and he loves it here.
03-14-2001, 08:16 AM
i´m new to the board and my first post doesn't even have something to do with basketball.
but we have some really good rappers here in germany. they've been featured by krs-one, the gza, mos def and many more.
to the topic. i think a main reason for dirk's rise is that his style of play will not cause as much injury problems as the game of the high flying guard of these days. mcgrady, kobe or iverson get beat up night in and night out plus their game is already ankle breaking, not just of the opponents also their own ones. dirk's game is very efficient and should help him stay healthy.
Big Boy Laroux
03-14-2001, 08:42 AM
The main difference here is that Dirk is primarily a shooter right now, although he is picking up the other aspects of the offense (driving to the hole, posting up, etc.) quite well. Finley is a pure scorer. He may not be the best shooter, but he can find ways to score. well, at least he could, before he started taking all those crazy fadeaways. Drive, Mike, Drive! (that's been a sticking point all season).
03-14-2001, 09:04 AM
Out of the last few posts the only thing I will say is, Dirk is driving to the basket more than Finley, I agree. That's my biggest arguement with Fin, but as far as saying his all around game isn't as good as Dirk's, has anyone realized the last two years Mike has lead his team in triple doubles. He only has one this year, but that's not something just anyone could get. The reason Mike can get assists is he draws a lot of attention to himself. I'm going to say this, Dirk is going to be great but I have to disagree with everyone in saying that he's going to be better or ahead of Mike someday. Actually Mike could be leading the team in scoring right now easily except he prefers to win over being selfish. If anyone doesn't think Mike couldn't average 25 points a game easily, they're crazy. He defers to Dirk ALOT. Now that he's surrounded by more scores, (Dirk, Nash, Howard, Eisley) he'll sacrafice his own personal statistics for the sake of the team. That says more about him as a player than anything else he's done if you ask me.
03-14-2001, 09:39 AM
How can you say that? Look at which player is getting to the foul line more? If you know anything about basketball, you know that people that drive to the basket get to the foul line more often than people that primarily shoot jumpshots. Dirk has attempted almost twice as many free throw attempts this year than Finley has. What does that mean? Combine that with the fact that he's shooting 48% from the floor it means that he's at least as effective driving to the basket as Finley is. Take in a game... If you want to argue, have some statistics to back up what you're arguing occassionally
03-14-2001, 09:45 AM
good point on Finley needing to drive.
Dirk is a pure scorer. He's a pure shooter, he's 7'0 tall and athletic. He can put the ball on the floor, he can drive and this season he has become more comfortable about doing that. Dirk has a very good shot at being able to average 28 a game by the time he's 25. How many people have done that in the history of the NBA? Ladies and gentlemen, you have a chance to see a guy develop into one of the premier scorers in the NBA history. No, I'm not saying that he'll be a top 10-20 scorer...but, i'm saying he has a realistic shot to score 28,000-30,000 plus for his career. No offense to Mica Finley, but that is completely out of his reach. How often does a 7'0 guy come along that can put the ball on the floor and shoot so well from the outside? How quickly is his game developing? Yes, we all agree that he's not at the peak of his game right now, but he's one of the top players in the Western Conference already. Take a look, appreciate what you're seeing. Dirk has a combination of gifts and abilities that 95% of the players in the NBA only dream of having.
Big Boy Laroux
03-14-2001, 09:57 AM
man, i feel like i'm on some board where people are arguing kobe vs. vince. do you guys realize these guys play on the same team that we all love and follow?! no need to get all angry and stuff...
why don't we just make a list of everything we hate about our own players? i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif
03-14-2001, 10:20 AM
I don't consider this arguing, I consider this voicing opinions. Neither one of us are saying one is a bad player or that either one of them are not great players, we're talking about where they're going.
Now to get to that point, I just want to add. The thing about Dirk that I don't think you're realizing is you're focusing on his age as opposed to numbers of years in the league. Personally I think Mike would have progressed just as much as Dirk has if he came in the league on a sorry team. Dirk came into the Mavericks when they were winning 30 games a year. Mike was a rookie on a team that had Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Robert Horry. Then when he came to Dallas he came with Sam (I haven't met a shot I don't like) Cassell. My point is saying that, Dirk progression has a lot more to do with who he's playing with and what surrounding him. That is what I'm saying is the beauty of Mike. I hate to disappoint you but if Mike wanted to could be among the top five in the league in scoring. Granted he would probably be shooting 30% from the field but he could do it. Actually if he drove to the basket more like he should he could be averaging 25 now. That would be easily another 6 additional trips to the free throw line.
Dirk is something amazing definately. A freak of nature actually, however I just want you to remember what they said about another 6'11 versatile player when he was 21 averaging what Dirk's averaging. He goes by the name of Kevin Garnett. They thought by his sixth year in the league he would be leading the NBA in scoring. Well he's not. Now granted Kevin is PHENOMENAL and probably could average more than he does, but he probably won't improve much more from a point standard than he is all ready. That's my point about Dirk. His game is going to get much better and he'll add different aspects to his game, but to think he'll go from 21 to 28 is being very lofty don't you think?
Big Boy Laroux
03-14-2001, 10:55 AM
I'm just saying that both of you have valid points, but we could go on like this for days. Personally, I agree with The Kid. Give them both their props. There is no need to say "dirk is the man now, move over Finley!" both are more than likely sacrificing part of their own games for each other and the rest of the team. Finley could easily average 25. so could dirk, if he decided to just jack up 3s all day. Point is, they're learning to play well together. Let's hope we can keep them both for years to come.
oh, and if bradley keeps playing the way he is, looks like we may have a Big 5, one of the toughest starting Lineups in the League.
03-14-2001, 11:17 AM
Big Boy ok, let's not get crazy now, I don't know about the best starting five. I will say this though, Bradley is playing GREAT!!!!! If he keeps that up, or when the Chinese dude gets here, they mine as well start fitting the Mavs for their rings.
03-14-2001, 01:00 PM
My point isn't that finley sucks. That's not it at all. My point is, is that Finley is at the top of his game. Dirk isn't. Dirk will mature and become more consistent. Dirk will develop a more consistent inside game. Dirk will hit 50% + of his field goal attempts. Dirk will be a tremendous outside threat from 3 point range. Finley won't do any of the above. Finley is at his peak. Finley will never consistently hit 40% of his three point attempts. Dirk has a tremendous upside, yes, i know that finley makes dirk a better player....at the same time, dirk makes finley a better player. Dirk is as good or better of an offensive threat as finley is, BUT DIRK WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE MAJOR STRIDES. AND IF YOU THINK THAT BECAUSE DIRK HAS BEEN IN THE LEAGUE FOR 3 YEARS THAT HE WON'T. JUST LEAVE IT AT, I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG.
Big Boy Laroux
03-14-2001, 01:10 PM
riiiiiiiight... honestly, though, with as many threes as dirk takes, he'll probably stay consistently around 50%. there is no doubt that dirk will continue to improve. he's young. but it's almost as if you're writing finley off as "the old veteran." he's got a whole lot of seasons left. who's to say he won't improve? players are always discovering new facets of their games.
Fact : Finley is a great player.
Fact : Dirk has a tremendous Upside.
personally, i like dirk better than finley. dirk's one of my favorite players. but i recognize that finley is a tremendous player and the leader on this team. i don't think dirk has the ability to carry a team consistently.
03-14-2001, 01:13 PM
maybe not 28, maybe 27.5
is that better?
No, i don't think it's too lofty for dirk to average 28 for a year. no, i don't think it's unrealistic for dirk to average 25 or better several times. the rate he's going right now, (which is 22 points a game), he might be up to 23 by the end of the season. that would be a huge jump from his second season to his third season. use your head, come on now, get with the program.
Like BBL said, Dirk has TREMENDOUS upside (moreso then Fin at this point). However, both are awesome players and both are equally reponsible for the team's success. For the time being, Dirk lacks the maturity and leadership qualities that Finley possesses. This is what really differentiates the two - this is Fin's team and no one is questioning that. Whether or not Dirk develops into a number one option type of player still remains to be seen. It's too early to tell, but judging from his consistent improvement (in almost every facet), it's clearly not out of the question.
03-14-2001, 01:28 PM
Well Lam everything you're saying is all speculation. You're saying Finley is at his peak, but how do you know. It's funny you say that because when he averaged 15 points a game SEVERAL coaches and GM's said that was the most he could average a game. One of those people being Jerry Krause. That's why Mike averages almost 27 points when he plays the Bulls. So to say he's hit his peak is pure speculation on your part. To assume Dirk is only going to improve and that he is not near his peak is pure speculation also. Yes he will improve, but so will Finley. For starters, if the Mavs keep the nucleus they have now for the three to four years, Dirk will NEVER average 25 points. There aren't enough of shots. Do you really think Nash and Howard won't become more involved in the offense if the nucleus stays together?
So I'm in the game, but I'm being realistic about the entire thing. Realistically speaking BOTH of them could if they wanted to be a top five scorer in the NBA, whether one shot 50% or 5% it doesn't matter, both have the ability to put the ball through the hoop. If either one decides to become more selfish they score MANY more points.
I don't think LAM is equating improvement to increased points production. Personally, when I talk improvement, I'm referring to Dirk's improving rebounding, post-up skills, etc. Finley excels in many categories, but he really hasn't added anything new to his repertoire the last couple seasons. This is in no way a bad thing, since he's a pretty balanced player. But take for example, we Mav fans have probably all been wishing he'd drive to the basket more! This is something he might improve on, but there's been no indication of this the past couple seasons. He just seems to content shooting the mid-range fadeaway.
Ok I'm going to stay out of this now i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif I've said my piece..both players are awesome and I hate having to compare them in any way.
03-14-2001, 02:31 PM
I don't think anyone can argue that Dirk and Finley complement each other on the court... Finleys' game has allowed Dirks' to emerge a lot faster than it might have, because of the defensive attention that Finley requires... Similarly, the emergence of Dirks' game is going to continue to make things easier for Fin... I don't think their should be any conflict between which player is our leading scorer, because I think that Nelson and the Mavs are going to continue to do what they have throughout Nelsons' reign- they are going to take whatever our oppositions' defense gives us...
Big Boy Laroux
03-14-2001, 02:44 PM
exactly, evilmav. take last night for example. fin, dirk, and howard all score 25 (27 in howard's case). pretty darn good. not gonna happen all the time, but the possibility is there. if there's a game against a team with a weakness that dirk can exploit, nellie will make sure they get dirk the ball. likewise with fin, howard, and nash.
take what the other team gives you, and ram it down their throats!
03-14-2001, 02:55 PM
You two are right are right. It just kind of bothers me that someone is not reckonizing the importance that Finley has had on Dirk. While I agree, Dirk makes Finley's job a lot easier also.
I'm in agreement, Mike needs to drive more. I think that's why he doesn't score 25 points a game. With the number of shots he takes, he should be going to the free throw line about 7 to 8 times a game AT MINIMUM, instead of 3 or 4. That can improve, I think what stops him from doing that is ball handling. I think he can improve there as well. Dirk also is a player I think that should reduce his threes too. I don't want to see him become a three point shooter, that will DESTROY HIS GAME if he does that.
Bottom line is this, Mike is the best player on that team right now. If Dirk will become the better player that remains to be seen but all I can talk about is the here and now and here and now, Mike is the better player. However I'm GLAD Dirk is on his team, I can only think of one player I would trade for him and that's Garnett.
03-14-2001, 02:56 PM
That's one of the things that makes watching this Mavericks' team so enjoyable to watch. I love watching the free-flowing unselfish offense of the Mavs, and it is winning a lot of games for us. Any of our big guns can be the leading scorer on any given night, because Nelson and the team itself recognizes and rewards whoever is playing well, and whoever has good matchups. They are playing the game the way it is meant to be played, so in my opinion it really shouldn't matter who's the leading scorer as long as we keep winning...
03-14-2001, 02:59 PM
Also, I think Fin will continue to work his mid-range game and drive the lane. It all depends on matchups, and he has to save something for the playoffs- think about how many minutes he has played over the last few seasons, without ever missing a game. He is an ironman, but even though he never complains about his hurts (like ms. kobe) those minutes have to take something out of him...
03-14-2001, 03:05 PM
Excellent point Evilman..
03-14-2001, 03:22 PM
Have any of y'all registered for the MFFL team on ESPN.com? For anyone who hasn't, I think there's still a little bit of time to do it...
03-14-2001, 07:35 PM
Traditionally speaking, a player in professional basketball at Michael Finley's age does not improve significantly. Yes, there are exceptions, of course, there are exceptions to everything. Why should Dirk not shoot threes? Yes, if he relies solely on his jumpshot, his progress will be delayed. But, the guy is almost a 40% shooter from three point land. If you don't remember, he's been second the last two years in the three point contest. With Finley's three point percentage we could say that he shouldn't be shooting them. I think he's crawled to around 29% (which is pathetic for someone that has attempted as many threes as he has). Yes, Dirk will average 25 a game. He may average 23 this year. Use your head, take in a game.
03-14-2001, 09:42 PM
i guess i won this argument.
03-15-2001, 09:27 AM
There's no argument to win here, you voiced your opinion. Your comment about being 28 and hitting your plateau. Jordan and Pippen just to name two had their BEST years statistically when they were 30 years old!!!!
Just so you know, I've taken in MANY Mavericks games.
03-15-2001, 09:39 AM
No, Jordan did not. Look it up.
get with it
Big Boy Laroux
03-15-2001, 09:41 AM
The Kid, that's why I earlier posted about this being an argument. You're not arguing, but it seems as though LAMO won't quit until everyone and their mother recognizes that he is the stats god.
wait, who said dirk shouldn't shoot threes? he's our best threat from out there. I just don't want to see him become only a marksman (a la chuck person). If all he does is shoot threes, he'll definitely impeded his progress in other areas of the game. If he continues at his current pace, however, I believe he could one day be MVP of the league.
03-15-2001, 11:20 AM
Thank you Big Boy, and for your info Lam you're such a stat's god, Jordan's best year statistically ALL AROUND was when he was thirty. I'm not talking about his best scoring year, all around. YOU look it up.
03-19-2001, 02:12 PM
YEAR GP MIN FGM-FGA PCT FTM-FTA PCT OFF-DEF-TOT AVG AST PF-DQ STL BLK PTS AVG
84-85 82 3144 837-1625 .515 630-746 .845 167-367-534 6.5 481 285-4 196 69 2313 28.2
85-86 18 451 150-328 .457 105-125 .840 23-41-64 3.6 53 46-0 37 21 408 22.7
86-87 82 3281 1098-2279 .482 833-972 .857 166-264-430 5.2 377 237-0 236 125 3041 37.1
87-88 82 3311 1069-1998 .535 723-860 .841 139-310-449 5.5 485 270-2 259 131 2868 35.0
88-89 81 3255 966-1795 .538 674-793 .850 149-503-652 8.0 650 247-2 234 65 2633 32.5
89-90 82 3197 1034-1964 .526 593-699 .848 143-422-565 6.9 519 241-0 227 54 2753 33.6
90-91 82 3034 990-1837 .539 571-671 .851 118-374-492 6.0 453 229-1 223 83 2580 31.5
91-92 80 3102 943-1818 .519 491-590 .832 91-420-511 6.4 489 201-1 182 75 2404 30.1
92-93 78 3067 992-2003 .495 476-569 .837 135-387-522 6.7 428 188-0 221 61 2541 32.6
94-95 17 668 166-404 .411 109-136 .801 25-92-117 6.9 90 47-0 30 13 457 26.9
95-96 82 3090 916-1850 .495 548-657 .834 148-395-543 6.6 352 195-0 180 42 2491 30.4
96-97 82 3106 920-1892 .486 480-576 .833 113-369-482 5.9 352 146-0 140 44 2431 29.6
97-98 82 3181 881-1893 .465 565-721 .784 130-345-475 6.3 283 151-0 141 45 2357 28.7
michael jordan's best year was probably when he was 25-26..his best all around year, that is. this was the 88-89 year.
thank you, get with the program.
03-19-2001, 02:56 PM
How can you expect anyone to read that? It's painful just looking at it.
yeah, it is painful, but it does prove his point
03-20-2001, 08:05 AM
What year did he win his first NBA championship, YOU GET WITH THE PROGRAM!!!!!
moron, you don't win the championship by yourself. jordan's best statistical years were when he was younger than 30, but he also didn't have scottie pippen around and some of the other parts of the team weren't in place. yes, he did win the championship, but that wasn't what you were arguing earlier in the postings. you said that jordan's best statistical year was when he was thirty....and that's not true. look at the stats, learn how to read them and get back with me
03-20-2001, 08:53 AM
I'm not even going to start calling you names but you're showing your true ignorance. The entire thing started because you said a PLAYER reaches his peak at about 27-28. You said they can't grow anymore and I SAID, BULL. Jordan won his championship at 30. Not only that, he became a more complete player at that age. It was THAT year (STAT GURU), that he played thirteen games as a point guard. Over that 13 game period he averaged almost triple double. It was that point when he added what became towards the end of his career his patent move, his turn around jumpshot something he didn't have before. MY POINT WAS, AT THE AGE OF 30 his game IMPROVED, and he won a championship!!!! Not to mention, he raised EVERYONE's game around him. So your statement about FIN and players typically reaching their peak at 27 or 28 whatever it was you said was WRONG!!! Then I added PIPPEN had his best STATISTICAL year at 30!!!
03-22-2001, 12:54 PM
30 for dirk....didn't do much good though, gotta have more than one person show up per game. tuesday night, juwan played pretty well...tonight, dirk...gotta have at least 2 of the guys hitting to have a good shot to win...against the elite teams, we'll probably need 3 of the main 4 hitting if we want to win... just a thought
03-22-2001, 07:50 PM
Dirk needs 40 pounds and 2 more yrs of age, And if hes hanging around
Nash I hope he still uses the weights.
Dirk will be a monster if he does,
Nash could use a little weight work this summer, Ortacle keeps showing close ups of nash's arms talking about bruises and his arms look flabby.
03-22-2001, 08:25 PM
dirk doesn't need 40 pounds. don't act like you're a basketball expert. if he puts on 40 pounds, he'll probably lose some of his shooting touch and possibly lose some of his mobility. his mobility is what makes him very hard for power forwards to defend and his shooting touch (at his height) is what makes him hard for small forwards to guard.
why does he need 40 pounds? his defensive has improved by leaps and bounds since his rookie season and it will continue to improve. yes, maybe he needs to bulk up some but not 40 pounds and not at the expense of his quickness and shooting touch. you're wanting him to be something he's not, he's never going to be a dominating defensive center probably. that's why he plays the small forward and power forward spot.
03-22-2001, 09:59 PM
Nash should be more worried about finding his comb
03-22-2001, 10:01 PM
I'm pretty damn happy with Dirk the way he is now. He is an incredibly quick and agile seven footer. Put 40 pounds on him and you turn him into Sam Perkins. Thanks but no thanks.
Big Boy Laroux
03-23-2001, 07:59 AM
ok, just an observation here.
thirdbse says dirk should gain 40 pounds. I personally don't agree, and neither do lamo and madape. however, madape replies with his own opinion. lamo replies with his own opinion and the put down, "don't act like you're a basketball expert."
dude, lighten up.
03-23-2001, 08:12 AM
oh yeah, sorry..i forgot about my mother teresa image.
sorry, you can be a sports expert if you want to
03-23-2001, 09:57 AM
I don't like to agree with Lam too often, but that is ridiculous to think Dirk could be as effective as he is now putting on 40 lbs. That's a quick way for people to start hating him.
03-23-2001, 10:24 AM
thekid, i don't like for you to agree with me either.
but, you know, i can see why you would have trouble not agreeing with me.
considering how articulate, well-spoken, intelligent, and personable i am.
03-23-2001, 11:17 AM
Another 40 pounds would only make Dirk more effective at playing a more effective conventiaonal pivot game... I still think he is going to gain another 15-20 pounds naturally as he fill out his frame, but I think he will still be able to cause the same kind of offensive mismatches that he currently does... I also still think that he will continue to develop the ability to post up smaller defenders. That is going to cause all kinds of problems for our opponents defensive schemes...
03-23-2001, 12:39 PM
there's a difference from naturally filling out your frame and going in and busting your arse trying to add 40 pounds of muscle. If dirk adds 40 pounds of muscle and it doesn't affect his quickness or his shooting, then i'm all for it...but i don't think that it would have a positive affect on his game.
yes, 40 pounds and maybe he could become a more traditional center..but as far as i know..he's really not playing much center...he needs his quickness and his durability.
03-23-2001, 12:58 PM
Dirk will naturally fill out, but I guarantee you he is hitting the weights and probably the rip fuel and supplements to... I don't want to see him bulk up that much, but to some extent it is probably going to happen...
Dirk will probably fill out a little in the next couple years, but 40lbs of muscle?! Last I heard, the NBA had an anti-juice policy i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif
03-23-2001, 01:05 PM
I agree with you there... If he gained 40 pounds it would be over the course of quite a few years. I think Madapes comparison to Sam Perkins is a good one... He was pretty thin early in his career, and he is a big lumberer now...
03-23-2001, 03:18 PM
yeah..completely agree..if he gains 40 pounds of muscle, it has to be over a 4-5 year period. anything else would mess up his quicknes and/or his shot. even then, 40 pounds of muscle could mess things up with him.
look at ex-ranger Sierra, when he came to camp one year bulked up, he quickly became an liability in the outfield because he lost his quickness, he became so big that he lost some of the fluidity in his throwing motion.
at the plate, he lost bat speed. the same things might happen to dirk if he added alot of muscle. no, he wouldn't lose bat speed but he might lose quickness and agility. could screw up his shot.
thanks, great, bye
03-23-2001, 03:18 PM
40 pounds and 20 is a big difference. Just ask Charles Barkley who probably has put on about 60 since he stopped playing. Dirk does not need 40 pounds. He does need to hit the weight room so he can be more effective in the post, but not 40 pounds.
03-23-2001, 03:23 PM
I never came up with that 40 pound number... I would be much happier with 10-20 over the next couple of years...
03-23-2001, 03:26 PM
i know evilmav, it was thrdbse that said he needed 40 pounds and 2 years..or something like that
03-23-2001, 03:52 PM
Karl Malone came into the NBA at a pudgy 250 lbs. Now he is 256 lbs of rock solid muscle with good flexibility.
Dirk weighs 250 now and is only 3 inches taller than Malone. If Dirk hit the weight room with the proper program, he probably wouldn't gain more than 10 pounds and would keep his flexibility and quickness.
Ruben Sierra went for pure muscle mass. He thought that if he was bigger, he would be a better hitter. Boy was he wrong.
03-23-2001, 04:11 PM
i see your point..but, dirk and karl's games are quite a bit different. i don't think dirk would keep his three point touch if he put on as much muscle as some of the aforementioned people have suggested
03-23-2001, 04:20 PM
Dirk would probably be unable to do the things he does now at a much higher weight. 10 pounds, 15 at the max.
But he does need to add strength to improve his low post game.
03-23-2001, 04:23 PM
oh yeah..of course..but not 40 pounds of muscle like was mentioned earlier by someone.
yeah...some extra strength would be great for dirk....
now bradley could use 40 pounds of muscle (but, i don't think we have to worry about that happening)
03-23-2001, 04:32 PM
Y'all should love Mr. Bradley just the way he is... With another forty pounds on his frame, he might not be the best running 7-6 player in the history of the league...
03-23-2001, 04:36 PM
Isn't he the ONLY running 7-6 player in the history of the league?
03-23-2001, 04:44 PM
Manute Bol and Big George Muresan used to try to run... But they were 7-7...
03-23-2001, 04:47 PM
didn't manute bol once hit 6 of 12 three pointers in one game?
03-23-2001, 04:49 PM
I liked watching Manute, he made me laugh. He would either run with his arms stiffly at his sides or he would run with his arms flapping like a scared chicken. LOL
03-23-2001, 04:51 PM
Didn't Manute also knock out his front teeth when he missed a slam dunk? God I miss him.
03-23-2001, 04:54 PM
I was trying to look up stuff on Manute Bol the other day... I think he is supporting a village in Africa right now...
03-23-2001, 05:00 PM
i think he has two of the best games in NBA history when it comes to blocked shots..i think he blocked 15 in a game twice, or something like that.
whatever happened to that korean guy that's 7'9?
is he going to come to the U.S. and play in the NBA.... we better hope not..or nellie may have him in here by the end of the week
03-23-2001, 05:02 PM
I am sure that Nellie has tried to bribe or sneak his way into getting scouting reports of that North Korean HGH-Gigantism experiment...
"It looks like he came from another world" remarked one awestruck observer...
03-23-2001, 08:28 PM
Ok maybe not 40 pounds, but 20 for sure. I am not sure Dirk will be shooting so many threes in a few yrs. Not when he finds out how easy it will be to just stuff it in the hole.
Hes young and its fun to shoot the 3's right now. And Nelsons offense has him out on the 3 line all the time.
What is going to happen when Nellie is gone and someone trys to stick hime in a triangle or some crazy offense.
03-23-2001, 08:48 PM
Assuming present trends continue, by the time Nellie is gone--which would include his retiring from the GM position as well as the coaching, Nowitzki is going to be the kind of star that coaches shape their system around--or get themselves fired (remember Nelson-Ewing in New York?)
03-24-2001, 01:55 AM
thirdbse, as good of a shooter as dirk is from the behind the arc, he'll continue to shoot threes.
it's absurd to think otherwise. you don't take someone completely out of one of their strengths....and shooting threes is obviously one of dirk's
03-24-2001, 01:23 PM
averaging over 25 per game since the all star break
03-27-2001, 10:45 AM
i think we should pitch in and buy dirk a full body cast..he needs it after last night..
No we should buy him a crowbar..
03-27-2001, 10:58 AM
well, he needed the crowbar last night..i'm sure they've already flown out of utah..so, the body cast might be more fitting now
03-27-2001, 12:24 PM
here's a thought.... play dirk at 2-guard, finpooch at point, howard, bradley and booth at the forward and center postitions... this might be a good lineup when playing a big team when nash is in need of a breather... just a thought.
if any 2-guard drove around dirk...he'd have three trees there to block his shot.
actually, i just wanted to be the 100th person to post here
Technically you're the 101st person to post here i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif There were already 99 replies (100 total including the original post).
03-27-2001, 12:40 PM
good point...but, i had the 99th reply also...so, more power to me.
Hehe didn't see your previous post..my bad i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif
03-27-2001, 12:47 PM
bjbackslash..is it your personal goal to beat down every comment that i make? to constantly antagonize me? if so, you're doing a good job.
LAM0015, is your personal goal to misspell my nick every time you post something? Hehehe chill man..I think you're starting to grown on everyone i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif
03-27-2001, 01:03 PM
i'm just giving you a hard time... i think the biggest problem is that several people just can't catch on to good sarcastic remarks...or to the subtle complexity in which i write. i think that all members as a whole need to work on this.
yeah..i do enjoy screwing your name up...just one of the simple pleasures in life
03-27-2001, 01:04 PM
oh yeah..and for everyone concerned...the "finley's overrated" remark was purely for shock value.
03-27-2001, 01:09 PM
"I think the biggest problem is that several people just can't catch on to good sarcastic remarks"
Try using different smilies in your posts. It better protray's diffenent remarks. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif .
03-27-2001, 01:10 PM
rob, that would take the fun out of it...besides, i tried that..and it didn't work either.
so, i guess we'll just have to learn to live with it.
03-27-2001, 01:15 PM
Yes, but it also takes the fun out of it for others when someone doesn't understand your being sarcastic and an arguement is started. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif
03-27-2001, 01:21 PM
rob, by arguing and voicing our opinions....that is how we come to the best conclusion to what the mavericks need to do.... it is in the best interest of the franchise if we continue to discuss and argue over the mavericks. through the hard work of this board, we will bring the Mavs a championship
besides, look how this board has exploded in popularity recently....apparently people are doing something right. alot of good basketball fans are jumping on board with this sight.
03-27-2001, 02:37 PM
Yes, I think I have brought an excellent knowledge to this board since I have signed up on it. I'd like to thank you Lam for giving me Kudos for signing on the boards. I will continue to enlighten everyone with my great basketball knowledge.
For all that didn't recognize it I WAS KIDDING!!!
03-27-2001, 03:15 PM
Personally, I wish Lameo would get tossed like nellie last night.
You see, that's just my opinion, and other's might have differing takes on it. But unlike you lameo, I actually listen to other's opinions instead of blindly arguing what I believe to be right. For being the smart guy that you claim, you sure don't know $hit...
(sorry dj, I'm just sick of this guy's bs)
03-27-2001, 05:42 PM
crippler, it might be a good idea for you to let go of some of the personal issues that you are bringing to the forum. i understand that you are bitter for some reason, but can we just talk basketball? that's what i'd love to do
thank you crippler, i hope your day is going better than what how it appears to be going from you post.
thekid, you may be a bit off base on some of your ideas (we'll have to work on those later), but i think you've done a commendable job since joining up
03-27-2001, 05:52 PM
crippler, i can accept other people's point of views..if they are right? which is why i generally don't accept yours unless you are agreeing with something that I have already said. therefore, it would be my opinion having a positive affect on yours...and would technically be my opinion instead of yours. in other words, i could then accept your opinion because your opinion would, in all likeliness, be a direct result of my prior posted opinion.
Crip, do you think the mavs will win this wednesday night?
03-27-2001, 11:32 PM
No answer? i'm going to have to go with "Yes". i do think the mavs will win. i think we should all try and be a bit more supportive to the mavs next time the question comes up
umm..please, let's limit physical violence
03-27-2001, 11:56 PM
crippler, this is the kinder, gentler LAM0015. I have it on good authority that aliens have secretly substituted Mr Rogers for him.
We'll know world domination is at hand when LAM0015 replaces his signature with one of Gandhi's sayings.
04-13-2001, 05:02 PM
well, let's hope the mavs will break out of their funk
is this "signature" a bit more appropriate?
Back to the holy icon eh LAM00?
04-13-2001, 11:35 PM
There were way too many posts to read, I was wondering how we went form Dirk to talking about how we all hate LAM? But for the record, LAM pisses me off too.i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif
04-14-2001, 08:31 AM
I think LAM is stuck with the "holy" icon. We seem to win more when he uses it.
04-14-2001, 09:37 AM
i thought i would use this icon because it is a better reflection of my personality
05-02-2001, 10:25 AM
dirk, finley, nash
what a future for the next 5-6 years (at least)
05-02-2001, 10:30 AM
wow...bringing up old posts. Murph, don't do this, or someone might leave the board. Dirk/Fin debates are strictly regulated...i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif
05-02-2001, 10:31 AM
Well you know what's interesting is that a NEW Member went all the way back there to find this post. Or could it be an old member with a new identity who knew it was there. Is it really LAM? i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif
05-02-2001, 10:41 AM
05-02-2001, 10:46 AM
actually, i just found this sight.
it's cool, the crippler introduced me to it. i've spent the last 6-7 hours reading anything mavericks that i can get my hands on
05-02-2001, 10:51 AM
Well welcome, it's a sweet spot!
05-02-2001, 12:31 PM
05-02-2001, 04:06 PM
05-02-2001, 07:01 PM
the mavs..that's what's up
07-13-2001, 05:16 PM
just bumping up a classic debate between good and evil, dirk and finley.. lam and the rest of the board
07-13-2001, 11:04 PM
Lam is a bad bad man.
07-14-2001, 01:06 AM
Dirk does not know how to make high five. Honestly, he may be the worst in the NBA today. Whenever he finish low post training. Finley, pleazse show Dirk how to do it.
07-14-2001, 01:07 AM
Dirk does not know how to make high five. Honestly, he may be the worst in the NBA today. Whenever he finish low post training. Finley, please show Dirk how to do it.
He needs to work on his trashtalking too i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif
07-14-2001, 05:33 PM
I think he could be pretty intimidating if he just yelled random German words at people.
07-15-2001, 09:07 AM
if he started mouthing off some pro hitler trash talk
07-15-2001, 10:43 PM
Dirk, one more thing to your to do list. F-L-O-P !! Take flop away from Marlone, he is an average star. Add flop on Dirk, that will be pretty.
07-16-2001, 06:18 AM
dj: BTW, why don't you sign up here rather then post anonymously ?
I like chatting with fans who know their stuff and stick to their beliefs.
Kid: I don't know how to sign up, I would like to.
dj: Just click the "join" tab along the top of the screen.
It takes just a few seconds to sign up.
Kid: Sweet, I'm in now, I have an identity.
dj: Welcome to the board !
So that's how TheKid was born ... that was a sweet story ...
I love kids and babies b/c they're PURE and NAIVE ... especially babies ...
so cute and adorable and their giggle always makes me happy i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif ...
But I have to disagree with some of what TheKid said ...
Finley's presence helps Dirk's performance ? ... maybe ... but not much ...
Didn't he score 42 (career BEST) without Finley's help ?
He did score 42 without Finley's help, Nash's help, 3-pointers, being selfish ...
and his free-throw percentage that night was 77.7%
which was BELOW his average (83.8% in last season).
Without all those, he can STILL score his BEST, how about THAT !!!!!!!!
Kid: However the question I have is would he be as great a scorer
if you take Finley off the court?
NotEnuffI's2C: D@mn, you NEVER give up, do ya ? The answer is "Yes", he would !!!
and I do believe he will become one of the greatest players
'cause he is NOT selfish, I LIKE that ...
Trash Talk ?
The reason why I like Dirk is he is still PURE and NAIVE ... they're priceless,
and that makes him SPECIAL ...
I don't think I'm pure and naive any more,
I lost them a long time ago and NO way to get them back ...
however I don't think Dirk is stupid,
so he'll do some trashtalking and something dirty ... but THAT is sad ....
Sorry, TheKid, I had no choice, you see, I think I'm in love with Dirk i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif,
he's so special, so pure, so good, so cute i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif ......
but sorry Kid, I didn't mean to offend you ...
07-16-2001, 06:23 AM
But the night when Dirk scored 42, I wasn't happy ... b/c we lost ...
No matter how many points you can score, it's no big deal ...
Basketball is a team game ... TEAM comes FIRST ...
Team's winning, team standing is D most important thing ... The RESULT
07-16-2001, 08:57 AM
Not enough.. I've decided I'm leaving the arguments for when the season starts. Everything I've had to say has been said, and I'm not speculating anymore on what the future holds, we'll just have to see.
Sorry but you missed the fun stuff.. No offense taken.
07-16-2001, 09:57 PM
I missed the fun stuff ? am I late again ?
Gee, I'm always late ...
11-29-2001, 08:16 PM
just bumping this up because i wanted to
02-08-2002, 10:19 PM
what happened to NEETS..
well, i just thought i'd bump up this classic thread
02-08-2002, 10:25 PM
why did it only get bumped up to here instead of the top of the board?
is it ok if IZZO comes back?
he was just curious
Also, the birth of TheKid
There is nothing classic about these debates. Just truth and lies. We know where the truth is and we know where the venomous lies come from
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