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View Full Version : The Mavs are a better team when Finley shoots less


LAM0015
03-12-2001, 03:22 PM
I know Finley is an All-Star, and he's deserving. But, I think the Mavs are a better team when he plays under control and takes 12-15 good shots a game. I think Finley takes too many turn-around fade-away 18 footers. Finley is an enormous asset to this team. But, as we've all seen, when Finley drives and dishes to the open man, this team is much improved. As long as he is more selective with his shots, this team will continue to improve. The Mavs have 4 great scorers on the court at tip-off. Finley doesn't have to carry the offensive load anymore. Actually, he's not even the most capable offensive threat on the team anymore. Finley is a solid all-around player and a team leader but his role shouldn't be for him to be the #1 offensive threat. The Mavs have several guys that are offensive threats and can lead the team in scoring any game. But, Dirk is the real deal. And he's only going to get better.

LonestarROB
03-12-2001, 04:03 PM
I couldn't agree with you more. Finley drives me CRAZY i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif shoting so many wild fadeaways. He has to much talent and doesn't need settle for those.

Mavinator
03-12-2001, 06:07 PM
I don't know if it's a matter of who's taking the shots, just that the main four scorers just let the offense come to them and don't try to force anything... With good ball movement and passing, something the Mavs usually have an abundance of, people are going to get good looks and we're going to score... the way I look at it, some nights Finley will get a lot of looks, and some nights he won't, and it shouldn't matter, if the offense is flowing like it should... I know that's a vague outlook, but it's the way I look at a system with four players that could easily be the leading scorers on lesser teams...

big_pth
03-12-2001, 06:58 PM
Finley needs to cut to the basket more...He's too good to not be going strong to the hole and getting mucho foul shots...

erub
03-12-2001, 07:39 PM
He hoists up a lot of low-percentage shots. Although a good amount of them good in, a lot of em don't...I do think he is the #1 offensive threat on the team. He's one of the reasons that Dirk can sit in the corner and hoist up 3s all day.

dallmav
03-12-2001, 08:12 PM
I agree that Finley should take it to the basket more often. He should be at the free throw line 10 times a game in my opinion.

MavsFanFinley
03-12-2001, 09:28 PM
I don't know how many times Im suppose to have this argument. I think we can all agree that Fin is probably one of the more unselfish players on the team, in the league actually too. My point? He will look for his teammates, whether it's Dirk or Najera, Nash or Maxwell, if they have a better shot than him. With Howard on board now, I would look to see him average more points than Fin. It's Fin who will score less now and dish out more. People were worried about Howard taking shots away from Dirk, it's Fin's shots that will decrease. The people surrounded by Fin now are KNOWN scorers. Fin use to take a lot of shots because if Davis, Alexander, Laettner, Trent or whoever couldn't hit theres, he would try to pick up the load. If you look at the boxscores and Fin has 20+ shots, in most cases it's because the role players didn't hit there shots and he tried to take the game over. Now that he's back to his natural position, you'll see him dish out more assists, be a better rebounder and shoot less. I'll bet he's relieved that he doesn't have to put up 20+pts every night for the team to win.

MavsFanFinley
03-12-2001, 09:49 PM
I re-read my post and Im not sure if I made my point clear. So, Im going to try again. It's going to piss me off if people claim the reason we're winning is because Dirk is leading in scoring and not Fin. No doubt, Dirk has stepped up his game and will only improve. I don't mean to take anything away from him, I want to make that clear. Im just saying that Fin would gladly average 10pts a game if their winning games. He has said as much. He don't care if he leads the team in this category or that category, it don't mean nothing if they lose. That's why I brought up the boxscores. If you look at the ones where he had 20+ shots, I bet you'll see that Davis, Laettner, Trent, Najera, Buckner, Eisley, etc...weren't hitting there shots and he tried to pick up their slack. He wasn't hoisting up shots to rack up numbers. Now, with Howard on board, I doubt you see Fin take more than 15 shots a game unless he or Dirk isn't hitting there shots. In those wins, you'll see there's a balanced scoring now, whereas before, you saw Fin and Dirk with big numbers but no one else really. Except Nash on some nights.

Mavinator
03-12-2001, 10:04 PM
I'm with MavsFanFinley... it's all about shot distribution...

mavsfan-972
03-12-2001, 11:04 PM
I also believe finley is the #1 threat on the team, although he forgets he is not playing alone somtimes his teamates will pull throgh.

nash is getting better and better

LAM0015
03-13-2001, 07:18 AM
I think we all agree that finley is a very good player. He's a more complete player when he distributes the ball. When he does shoot, he needs to take it to the hole. Look at his career field goal percentage and three point percentage. You can see that he's not among the better shooters in the league. Finley's game has to be to where he takes it to the hole. When he does this, defenses will rotate to cut off the drive and he can dish to the open man or take the shot. My main point is, is that the Mavs are best when he takes fewer jumpshots. He needs to drive, he needs to dish. Yes, Dirk is the premier scorer on the team. Yes, Finley is probably the premier offensive player on the team at this time. Neither of these are the main point. It is that Finley is a better player when he drives or when he looks for other people. Sometimes he doesn't do that, most of the time he does. It's when he does do this that the Mavs are at their best. When he does this, it's like having two premier point guards (fin and nash) on the court at the same time. This is when the Mavs main foursome become most potent.

Evilmav2
03-13-2001, 08:00 AM
When the Mavs are playing their best offensive ball, Finley, Dirk, Nash, and now Howard all key off of each other... When Dirk hits a couple of jumpers the defense opens up for Nash driving the lane, or Fin taking his man one on one, or Howard cutting to the paint... The same kinds of reactions also work when Fin starts going off, or if Nash is driving to the hole with impunity- then Dirk gets open looks... The main reason we are scoring more than most of the rest of the league is the fast tempo of our game, but also the way our weapons all feed off of each others' games, and complement each other. And that is only going to get better as Dirk continues to mature, and Howard becomes an indesposable offensive option...

big_pth
03-13-2001, 08:44 AM
As far as the winning goes, I'm sure that if the Mavs keep winning, Finley is the kinda guy to simply do what needs to be done...He is probably the classiest act in the NBA right now. He seems like a throw back, win first, care about the individual numbers later...To bad there are so many people who are the opposite nowadays...

LAM0015
03-13-2001, 08:57 AM
Yes, Finley is a class act. I completely agree. Yes, he is a team player, I completely agree. He gives alot of effort but no-one on the team gives more than steve nash. No, he's not my favorite player, but no one busts their a*s more than he does. Diving after loose balls..he's always on the floor.
Finley's not a throwback player for one simple reason....he has a below average jumpshot for a shooting guard. You can't be a throwback if you're not a good shooter.

03-13-2001, 01:28 PM
I read a lot of the posts and to be honest, I think Nash is average at best. I don't think the Mavs have four capable scorers who can do it night in and night out. I think they have two, Finley and Dirk! As far as Finley goes not being a throwback player, he's the closest thing to it because he does something NO OTHER ALL-Star does and that's play defense. If you follow his career, he's always done what's been asked of him. When he was with the Suns, he was asked to get loose balls and play the toughest offensive player on the other team and he did so. He came to Dallas as that type of player. Then he was asked to score more he did. Then he was asked to carry the team and he did carry the offensive load. He is now asked to be more of a team player and he is doing so without complaining or a problem. That's why this team is going to be successful, because the team goes as their leader goes and their leader is doing a fine job. I don't think anyone should have a problem with his shot selection because for every bad shot he takes, he does five good things for it.

scooterj5
03-13-2001, 11:44 PM
I don't really care about shots. I mean everyone here is a team player. Nobody is upset about who takes what shots. We're winnig 60%, all is good!!

LAM0015
03-14-2001, 07:15 AM
Nash isn't a scoring threat? How can you say that? Anyone that is shooting 50% from the floor is a scoring threat. Anyone that hits 40% of his three point attempts is a scoring threat. Anyone that drives to the hole like he does is a scoring threat.
And you're an idiot if you think Finley plays solid defense. Yes, he may be average, but he's not an above average defensive player by any stretch of the imagination.

TheKid
03-14-2001, 07:56 AM
OK, he just gets the toughest offensive assignment everynight and leads his team in steals but he's not an above average defender? Come on, like I said on another post, Nash is damn good but it seems like people on this post are willing to put him among the leagues elite and I'm sorry but he's just not there yet. NOW, does he have the ability to be there, YES, but he's not there yet.

LAM0015
03-14-2001, 08:32 AM
Finley does not get the toughest defensive assignment everynight. Tell me this, what teams in the NBA have had better Point Guard play this year than the Mavs? if you come up with some teams, back it up with some statistics. Like I've previously mentioned, last year, the two guard for opposing teams scored more points per game against the Mavs than what Finley scored against them. Go back, look it up.

LAM0015
03-14-2001, 08:36 AM
just because you lead the team in something (like steals) does not mean that you're a good defensive player. It means you take more risks. It's like a cornerback, he may guess on the out route and break before the pass is thrown....if he's right, he has an interception...if he's wrong and it's an out and up, he's burnt often times for very long gains. Finley is average at best defensively. Take in a game...watch him get torched when guards go to the basket

TheKid
03-14-2001, 09:06 AM
LamOO I don't understand what you mean when you say look at the other teams and what they did against him. Let me give you an example. When the Mavs play the Rockets, Mike guards Francis. So if Francis comes in and score 25 points against Mike then Nash matches up with Moochie Norris and Moochie only scores 10 does that make Nash the better defender? No. Mike may not get the toughest assignment every night but he gets tougher assignments way more than NASH. My point is when Mike was in Phoenix he was their best defender and did get the toughest assignments then. Now he's considered more of a scorer so they don't want him having those assignments every night. Nash never has or never will be asked to go in a game and guard the best scorer. You don't think if Nash had to guard Iverson or Payton they wouldn't look at that like a mismatch?

However I will agree that steals doesn't mean you're the best defender but it does say something about your ability to be in the right place at the right time. (anticipation) For instance Mike has the season high for steals in a game this year. That doesn't say anything about his defensive ability?

LAM0015
03-14-2001, 12:08 PM
that's why i said he's an average defender, because he does have alot of steals. and yes, i know that at times there will be different mismatches but when you look at a season as a hole, and your 2 guard is outscored by your opponents 2 guard, maybe you should pay some attention to that

TheKid
03-14-2001, 12:34 PM
Or maybe you should look at the system they run too. They're a run and gun team which leaves more opportunities for a team to run against them. Let me tell you this, the way you're talking is saying if a teams two guards scores a lot of points against there's reason for concern. If that is what you want to look at, Cleveland and the NEW YORK Knicks have GREAT defending guards. No one scores against them, however that has MUCH more to do with their offensive system than their actual defense. If that's the case then you're telling me, Allan Houston is a better defender than Michael Finley, NO WAY. You're also saying Wesley Person (who is the starting shooting guard for Cleveland) is a better defender also. So that is NOT the only thing you should look at when you're looking at defense. In the NBA stopping someone or shutting them down is HARD, but making someone work for their points is. So what you should be looking at is the percentage people shoot when they play against Mike? I'm sure that would make a difference.

djb
03-14-2001, 12:40 PM
This is why I hate bringing up stats..

LAM0015
03-14-2001, 06:38 PM
as a matter of fact, I have the shooting percentage of when players are defended against Mike last year. Would you like for me to tell you what it is? Well, it's 48.375%
are you happy? Sorry, I love stats, I was a stats major in college. if you'll notice, the field goal percentage is 48.375, which is definitely higher than Finley's field goal percentage

TheKid
03-15-2001, 08:10 AM
Lam, you didn't even understand my last statement. I said field goal percentage would be a better statistic. Also you must realize last year as well as this year, some of the defensive assignments Mike has gotten has been small forwards and some point guards. He doesn't guard the two guard every game. Like I said also, I guess now, Wesley Person and Allan Houston are the two best defensive shooting guards in the NBA!!!

LAM0015
03-15-2001, 08:42 AM
I completely understand your statement. Is it my fault that I did a paper and extensive study on this very thing for a graduate level stats class last year? Well, actually, maybe it is. but, i don't mind

TheKid
03-15-2001, 10:29 AM
This is why you have to be a basketball fan also, stats NEVER tell the entire story. It tells alot, but not the entire story. So if you want to say Dirk has better statistics than Mike, go right ahead however the coaches choose the reserves for the All-Star team right. Mike was chosen over Dirk, so I would like to believe they have "some" knowledge of the game.

LAM0015
03-17-2001, 10:16 PM
the last time finley was the best defender on his team was probably high school. I can't believe how much you people worship that over-valued 2-guard. Yes, he's good, but he's not great and he never will be. Yes, he's a class guy, but he's not a great basketball player by NBA standards. He's solid, but not great.

TheKid
03-19-2001, 12:51 PM
Lam, this will be the last I respond to your nonsense on this thread. Your last remark is just silly, Finley is a two time all-star has lead his team in MANY statistical categories not once twice but three times, and you're saying he's over valued, but Dirk is great. You're ridiculous.

03-19-2001, 01:19 PM
yes, stats tell alot, ..no, they don't tell everything. but, they do tell more than either or your opinions on here. kid, the stats are alot more valuable than your opinion. lam0015, maybe even yours. finley is a good player, no, he's not great. alot of people have been all-stars, that doesn't mean they are great, it means they might put together a couple of solid years. the only reason finley made it and not dirk was because the western conference is so loaded at the power forward position this year. finley is a good player, but keep his play the past couple of years in context...(kinda like gary trent's from a couple of years ago). even bad teams have to score sometimes..that's probably why finley's average was so high..and that's probably why trent had a good year a couple of years ago. everyone can't suck completely on a bad team. now that the mavs are good, you can see that finley isn't the top player or the most important player on the team.

Mavs#1Fan
03-19-2001, 03:21 PM
LAM0015 on Mar 17th you posted:

>I can't believe how much you people worship that over-valued 2-guard. Yes, he's good, but he's not great and he never will be. Yes, he's a class guy, but he's not a great basketball player by NBA standards. He's solid, but not great.<

You're not the only one who can pull up stats. All of these shooting guards/ swingmen made the All-Star Game this year. This comparison throws out Kobe & Vince Carter (those two are the best by far).

Points per game
Finley 4 straight years over 20
Allen 2 of last 5 years over 20
Houston 8 straight years under 20
McGrady 1 of last 4 years over 20
Sprewell 3 straight years under 20
Stackhouse 2 of last 4 years over 20

Rebounds per game
Finley 4 straight years over 5
Allen 1 of last 5 years over 5
Houston 8 straight years under 4
McGrady 3 of last 4 years over 5
Sprewell 9 straight years under 5
Stackhouse 5 of last 6 years under 4

Assists per game
Finley 4 straight years over 4
Allen 2 of last 5 years over 4
Houston 8 straight years under 3
McGrady 1 of last 4 years over 4
Sprewell 2 of last 3 years under 4
Stackhouse 2 of last 6 years over 4

Shooting percentage
Finley 6 of last 7 years over 44%
Allen 3 of last 5 years over 44%
Houston 3 of last 5 years over 44%
McGrady 3 of last 4 years over 44%
Sprewell 1 of last 8 years over 44%
Stackhouse 6 straight years under 44%

Minutes per game
Finley 4 straight years over 40
Allen 1 of last 5 years over 40
Houston 8 straight years under 40
McGrady 1 of last 4 years over 40
Sprewell 2 of last 5 years over 40
Stackhouse 1 of last 6 years over 40

The stats don't lie. Finley is arguably the 3rd best shooting guard in the league right now.

TheKid
03-19-2001, 03:25 PM
That was pretty good, the funny part is even though Kobe probably is better, he hasn't even done what Finley has done over the past four years. That's pretty good Mav.

IZZO
03-19-2001, 03:58 PM
finley has played on a very bad dallas maverick team, any above average two guard would have put up extraordinary numbers on that mav team because their was no one else.
look at finley's stats this year, they aren't good...look at the shooting percentages, they are not good. he has to be one of the worst 3-point shooters from the 2-guard spot in the NBA. yes, he does do some other things but he has to do other things to make up for his poor shooting. if ray allen played on the mavs the past 4 years, i'm sure he would have averaged 25+
get with it

03-19-2001, 04:01 PM
truthfully, the NBA is very weak at the 2-guard spot. but, the nba is loaded at the forward position. it is harder to stand out at the forward spot than it is at the 2-guard spot, but that's exactly what dirk is doing, he's standing out and showing that he's one of the premeir players in the nba, at the same time, finley's stats are looking more and more average. the only thing that makes them look good is the fact that the two guards in the nba aren't that great right now

Mavinator
03-19-2001, 05:15 PM
Finley is NOT a bad three-point shooter... it's just that he's ALWAYS the one who ends up taking the crazy, last-second, fadeaway three-point shots. He's taken a statistical pounding both from this and from multiple terrible-shooting nights during the absence of Steve Nash... come on, now, you've seen Finley nail those things dozens of times over the season. You KNOW he can shoot the three pointer when you see him shoot from five feet behind the arc and watch it swish in... his stats lie. I'd estimate him to be a 36% shooter if he only took the kind of shots Dirk and Nash take....

Mavs#1Fan
03-19-2001, 07:08 PM
IZZO said >>finley has played on a very bad dallas maverick team, any above average two guard would have put up extraordinary numbers on that mav team because their was no one else.<<

Maybe you should look up a stat or two before you tell others to "get with it". The Mavs are very good this year (2000-01). The Mavs were good last year (1999-2000). The Mavs had Trent (16 PPG) and Ceballos (12.5 PPG) in 1998-99. The only year that Finley was the sole threat for the Mavericks was 1997-98. All I see from Finley's statistics is that he is getting better as the talent around him is getting better. Consistent excellence.

2000-2001 21.0 PPG, 5.1 RPG, 4.5 AST, 45.9% FPCT, 31.6% 3PCT
1999-2000 22.6 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.3 AST, 45.7% FPCT, 40.1% 3PCT
1998-1999 20.2 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.4 AST, 44.4% FPCT, 33.1% 3PCT
1997-1998 21.5 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.9 AST, 44.9% FPCT, 35.7% 3PCT

IZZO said>>...look at the shooting percentages, they are not good. he has to be one of the worst 3-point shooters from the 2-guard spot in the NBA.<<

Again, you should look up a stat or two before you tell others to "get with it". You are so wrong it hurts.

3 point percentage
Finley 1 of last 5 years over 40%
Allen 3 of last 5 years over 40%
Houston 2 of last 5 years over 40%
McGrady 4 straight years under 40%
Sprewell 5 straight years under 40%
Stackhouse 5 straight years under 40%

I am still making the case that Finley is the 3rd best 2 guard in the league. If you are going to argue with me, have some numbers ready.

Mavinator
03-19-2001, 07:11 PM
You're damn right Finley's the third best 2 guard in the league... keep fighting the good fight, Mavs#1Fan...

thirdbse
03-19-2001, 07:40 PM
those are impressive Finley stats
The thing about finley is for the last 75 or so qames is he is less streaky than he was.
The stat Nelson looks at anyway is how well does the team do when you are in the game, That is the whole story. /Those stats are somewhere.
i know they are in Nelsons hand

IZZO
03-20-2001, 07:09 AM
if you look at the stats of how the mavs do when certain players are in the game, well, then bradley would be the best player on the team. we all know that isn't the case, nash would be second, dirk third and finley fourth out of the starters...i didn't include howard because he's been it's been just a few games that he's been here

TheKid
03-20-2001, 07:10 AM
Mav # 1 You are on top of your game for sure..... I'm laughing my ass off over here. Point out ONE OTHER THING!!! THE MAN HAS NOT MISSED A GAME SINCE HE'S BEEN IN THE LEAGUE!!!! These other guards don't go in night in and night out and deal with all the bangs, tiredness. Not to mention he's been in the top 3 in minutes played the last three years. Do I think ANY other two guard would be able to be as consistent without fatigue setting in all year long?????? NO!!!! Keep up the good work Mav.

TheKid
03-20-2001, 07:15 AM
Oh one more thing. Did anyone see ESPN lastnight?? Well after the Laker game, after Terry LIT Kobe up for 36 points, they showed who had the top performances against the Lakers this year. Well these are all people who Kobe guarded.

Marbury 44 points
Iverson 37 points
Terry 30 points
Stackhouse 33 points

All of them average over 30 points. NOW, when I said earlier about Finley's defense it has a lot more to do with the system, I'll say it again. Kobe is first team all defensive team, now according to LAM (the great statistician he is) this proves that Kobe is no more than an average three. Once again, these averages (statistically speaking) show Wesley Person is a better defensive two guard than Kobe and Finley. NONE of these players have averaged more than 30 points against Person this year. So be more realistic please. I like stats as much as anyone else, but it doesn't give you the full picture always. As Mav has shown you all for every argument you have, someone can find stats to back up the other side.

Mavs#1Fan
03-20-2001, 06:07 PM
Well I've done a little more stat work on Finley. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a spreadsheet, a dsl, and a slow day at work.

I took all the final game stats for the opposing team's starters at shooting guard and small forward (Finley is a swingman after all). If I could not determine who the starters were from ESPN's player list, I took the forward or guard who had the best game (most players did have a defined position).

For the first 30 games of the season, the other teams starters were:
Shooting Guard 46.8 PCT, 1.0 STL, 4.5 RPG, 2.7 AST, 15.0 PPG
Small Forward 46.7 PCT. 1.1 STL, 6.0 RPG, 2.4 AST, 13.6 PPG

Finley's line for the year:
45.9 PCT, 1.5 STL, 5.1 RPG, 4.5 AST, 21.0 PPG

I'll give up under 1% on shooting percentages for those other numbers.

But I have to downgrade Finley to the 4th best shooting guard. Iverson is listed as a shooting guard now. I always thought of him as a point guard.

TheKid
03-21-2001, 07:29 AM
Mav it's funny how Lam, just left this thread alone after you started pointing out those comparisons.