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Evilmav2
10-09-2003, 12:32 AM
Shaq says he will play until he is 39 or 40
http://www.manmademultimedia.com/magazine/features/former/delahoya/shaq.jpg

By Marc Stein
ESPN.com

An angry Shaquille O'Neal took his anger out on the Warriors' front line.

HONOLULU -- They are the last team that needs more drama. They also apparently don't get a choice.

Something is always simmering with the Los Angeles Lakers, and there is already something new. That would be Shaquille O'Neal's increasingly loud push for a contract extension, which pretty much drowned out everything else that happened here in L.A.'s preseason opener.

Gary Payton and Karl Malone wore gold uniforms for the first time, and the new guys functioned reasonably well in basic configurations of Phil Jackson's triangle offense, but nobody really wanted to talk about that. Not after O'Neal:

Responded to a flurry of jumpers -- never mind that a couple were defended by the 6-foot-8 Popeye Jones -- by glaring at Lakers owner Jerry Buss on the way back down the floor.

Viciously spiked a Mike Dunleavy shot into the stands, whipping the crowd into a frenzy, then repeatedly bellowed a message for Buss as he strolled back to the bench. That message: "Now you gonna pay me?"

Announced after the display that there should be no concerns from the Lakers about extending his contract for another three years, at more than $100 million, because the 31-year-old now plans to play until he's 38 or 39.

How many more years, Diesel?

"Seven or eight," he said. "Easily."

So make that at least two dramas in Lakerland for the moment, even though O'Neal is signed through the 2005-06 season. With Kobe Bryant safely tucked away in a basement office at the Stan Sheriff Center, watching the game on TV before Wednesday's trip back to the mainland in time for Thursday's pretrial hearing in Colorado, O'Neal raised questions about someone else's mind-set on an otherwise sleepy evening.

His own.

Although he tried to downplay the histrionics in his postgame comments, it's already evident that the Lakers' reluctance to extend his contract now is weighing on the slimmed-down Shaq. While admitting that there's "really not an urgency" because his current deal still runs for three more seasons, O'Neal has been dropping hints about his desire for another extension ever since he got to training camp last Thursday. This is the first month he's eligible to sign another extension, and it certainly sounds as though sheriff school can suddenly wait until he's closer to 40.

That's probably because Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak, asked about an O'Neal extension before veterans arrived in Honolulu, suggested that the Lakers were reluctant to discuss a new contract at this time. This season is the first season on O'Neal's last extension -- a three-year deal worth nearly $90 million.

That extension came after the Lakers' first of three consecutive championships, when O'Neal was 28 and the league's reigning MVP. Buss and Kupchak are naturally wary now about O'Neal's future, at 31, after two toe surgeries and ongoing concern about his knees and other joints.

Another issue is the significant sacrifice made by Payton and Malone to play in Hollywood's epicenter of drama. Those two will earn only $6.4 million combined this season, and with Bryant bound for free agency this summer -- assuming he can retain his innocence through the Colorado court system -- the Lakers clearly have much to consider on top of O'Neal's demands.

O'Neal, meanwhile, is pointing to history and a devoted summer of fitness work to back his claims for extension No. 2. He reminded his audience that the Lakers won two more championships after the "last time they took care of it" and pointed out that "on a good toe or a (bleeped)-up toe, I always give my maximum."

True. It's also fair to point out that O'Neal does look rather good, even though it's a bit much to celebrate the abuse of a Warriors front line that didn't even include the injured Troy Murphy and Adonal Foyle. In a preseason game.

The good news? Shaq has noticeably slimmed, in his midsection and in his face. He's down from at least 380 pounds to closer to 340 and appears to have shaken off the ill effects of a bruised left heel that held him out of two early practices.

Asked to clarify his pay-me shouts at Buss, O'Neal said: "You read my lips and you read 'em clearly." Yet when asked if his contract quest will be a distraction, O'Neal softened. "I'm not really worried about it," he said. "I've always been professional. I've been here, what, seven years now, and I've always played hard and (given) my maximum, even when I was hurt. So I just want the same honesty and respect in return. (But) if it gets done, it gets done. If not, we understand."

Sound convincing?

A slightly more encouraging tone came from Jackson and Malone, neither of whom took O'Neal too seriously. And both of whom know that a peeved, motivated Shaq is generally when he's most productive.

"It's always fun to see the big guy out there having a good time," Jackson quipped.

Said Malone: "I'm not going to let him get in a bad mood. Like I tell (Shaq) all the time, 'Hell, y'all didn't pay me enough for (that).' "

Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com. To e-mail him, click here. Also, send Stein a question for possible use on ESPNEWS.

MFFL
10-09-2003, 12:51 AM
I can't believe that Shaq thinks he is fooling anyone into thinking he will play until he is 40. How dumb does he think we are?

EricaLubarsky
10-09-2003, 12:58 AM
http://www.whymyfoothurts.com/images/whydoesmybigtoehurt.gif

LRB
10-09-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by: MFFL
I can't believe that Shaq thinks he is fooling anyone into thinking he will play until he is 40. How dumb does he think we are?


Probably as dumb as he is if he thinks he can play to 40. Gotta love the team spirit of Shaq demanding an extention when GP and Malone took major pay cuts. Guess shaq figures he has to make a big move if he wants to one up Kobe in selfishness.
i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif

Rod1975
10-09-2003, 03:24 AM
Step over the line, backpedal....step over the line, back pedal......
When will this idiot shaq stop with his personal spindoctoring? Who does he think he's fooling?
We all know he's an arrogant, spoiled, egomaniac. Why does'nt he just give up on the spin/damage control?

And as far as him playing until he's 40.....ha! Does Patrick Ewing ring a bell?

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 07:30 AM
shaq's one of the more entertaining players in the NBA. it's a shame he gets treated like garbage

Simon2
10-09-2003, 09:01 AM
This only means that Shaq wants a 7 or 8 year deal. I hope the Lakers botch this up and he goes to the East. Maybe to the Grizzlies. I don't think the Mavs can get him to play here.

MavKikiNYC
10-09-2003, 09:14 AM
Now wait just a minute, FatBoy.........

Interesting how he's proposing the classic pay-me-today for what-I'll-do-for-you-tomorrow. The extension is justified in his own peanut head because he worked really hard in the off-season? Let's see if His Lardness can make it through a regular season without the bones in his feet crumbling, and then what he's got left for a playoff campaign before they start extending his extension..

The galling point is, as Stein points out, that he's screeching about his contract after Payton and Malone basically came to play pro bono (or the nearest NBA equivalent). Here's one for the spin-meister: Shaq was just trying to demonstrate his leadership skills by deflecting the media attention from a beleaguered teammate.

Nice try, FatBoy.

kg_veteran
10-09-2003, 09:28 AM
Shaq is making it an issue THREE years before his contract runs out because he knows that when he's 34, he won't command 30 million per year.

The problem with his maneuver is that Kupchak is smart enough to realize what he's doing and to sense his desperation.

If I'm Kupchak, I make him wait until the summer after the 2004-2005 season to even discuss it. What's he gonna do? Leave? He told us he always gives his "maximum". Shaq can't win this power struggle, because he doesn't have any leverage.

dirno2000
10-09-2003, 09:42 AM
Shaq just needs the carrot dangled in from of him. Much like Emmitt Smith, he seems to play better when he feels disrespected and has something to prove. He has 3 years and over 60 mil left on his current deal, so I really don't think it's a money issue.

As far as Malone and Payton, they have nothing to do with Shaq's money. First of all, I don't think they came to L.A. to do Shaq a favor and help him get the title back. They came because they wanted a title and playing with Kobe and Shaq gave them the best chance. Everybody's out for self. He doesn't owe them anything for coming to the Lakers.

And It's not like the turned down max deals elsewhere. Who was going to pay Payton more then the mid level exception to play for them? Possibly Mil. but it doesn't seem like he liked it there. Beyond that, would any of the teams under the cap waste their cap room on a 35 year old pg. I doubt it since most of them were bad teams. SA wasn't interested, so what was he going to do. Malone could have got more, but Utah was not offering what he wanted. He went to the team that gave him the best chance to win the title.

kg_veteran
10-09-2003, 09:47 AM
I'd agree that Malone and Payton had selfish reasons for coming to the Lakers, and Shaq's extension doesn't really have anything to do with them. It just makes him look "extra greedy" when he's asking for another $90-100 million extension when his elder brethren are making in the $1.5-4.9 million range and probably could have collected at least $7-8 million a year a piece elsewhere.

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 09:47 AM
i can understand someone not thinking that shaq will be successful with this maneuver as KG stated.

but, kinda pointless taking shots at Shaq such as calling him "fatboy" or whatever. He's the most dominant player in the NBA. I really don't see the obsession with attempting to beat him down. It's like he's accused of raping a woman or anything. He catches more shit on this site than Kobe does. All Shaq has done is come out and won three titles while being the most dominant player in the NBA and one of the better centers of all time

dirno2000
10-09-2003, 09:51 AM
I couldn't agree more Murph, but this is a Mavs board. IMO Shaq is the biggest obstacle to us getting a title so it's just frustration. Otherwise, how can you not like Shaq. He seems like a good guy, he's entertaining, doesn't just speak in sound bites (Michael Finley), and he's good for the league.

kg_veteran
10-09-2003, 09:53 AM
I think anyone and everyone who is honest concedes that Shaq is the best basketball player on the planet. I don't buy the distinctions between "best" and "most dominant". Are there players with more diverse skills? Sure. Players who can do more things on a basketball court? Sure. But Shaq is the best basketball player on the planet. He does everything he can do so well that he completely dominates games.

As for why people hate Shaq so much, well, there are probably a variety of reasons. The foremost, however, has to be the rather accurate perception that Shaq is the NBA equivalent of the big kid on the playground. While he is an amazing athlete who has great quickness and agility for his size, Shaq dominates the game to a large extent because he's bigger and stronger than everyone else. That seems inherently unfair to people who aren't named Shaq.

dirno2000
10-09-2003, 09:55 AM
Edited: off topic

kg_veteran
10-09-2003, 10:02 AM
I don't see any way they get 7-8 mil elsewhere. I beleive MFFL posted an article saying Utah wouldn't give Malone 7 mil. If they wouldn't who would. I never got the impression that the Bucks went hard after Payton, so who was going to pay him. Like I said, SA wasn't interested and all of the bad teams with cap room wanted to get young. I just don't think the market is that great for 35 year old point guards, even if you are Gary Payton. We'll see next year, because he's opting out after this year.

I'm at work and don't have the time to do the research right now, but I'm pretty sure the article MFFL posted said they wouldn't pay more than 7 million. That's why I said 7-8 million (because I was referring to both guys). As for Payton, I know that the Bucks were discussing sign-and-trade deals that would allow them to get something in return for Payton's departure and also would get Payton more than the MLE. I can't speak with any intelligence at the moment as to what the proposed deals were. However, the MLE is 4.9, so one would think Payton was going to receive at least a fair amount more than that.

MavKikiNYC
10-09-2003, 10:11 AM
Literally LOL-ing.

High comedy (or as high as this board gets) to see one of the biggest smack talkers on the board defending Mr. O'Neal's honor. Birds of a feather?

Nobody seriously denies Mr. O'Neal's oncourt dominance, although there are legitimate points to be made about the disparate amount of latitude allowed him by NBA officials, much as there were about Mr. Jordan.

Mr. O'Neal degrades his own standing in the league, both among his contemporaries and previous greats, by being a classless boor; making belittling, disrespectful comments toward opponents and teammates alike; and despite his oncourt dominance, fostering the perception among many observers that he's more dedicated to his offcourt image and activities than his oncourt career.

No question as to what he and his teams have accomplished, rather slightyly disappointed speculation about how much more it could be, and how much more classily it could have been done.

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 11:57 AM
"Mr. O'Neal degrades his own standing in the league, both among his contemporaries and previous greats, by being a classless boor; making belittling, disrespectful comments toward opponents and teammates alike; and despite his oncourt dominance, fostering the perception among many observers that he's more dedicated to his offcourt image and activities than his oncourt career."

if that is your opinion, perhaps you should have stated something similar in your original post. I wouldn't have felt the need to comment on this opinion...but, to start calling him names simply makes people look either uninformed and/or jealous. and mavskiki..i know you're not uninformed. i also assume you're not jealous.

kg_veteran
10-09-2003, 12:26 PM
I don't like him, not because I'm uninformed or jealous, but because I think he wouldn't be very dominant if he were 6'11", 240 lbs.

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 12:28 PM
probably not KG...and i agree pretty much with your post above as well.

but, to be as quick as he is with such enormous size is quite amazing

kg_veteran
10-09-2003, 12:33 PM
I agree.

I guess it's similar to my feelings toward Jordan. While I rooted for Jordan more earlier in his career when he was an underdog, I had far more respect for his game when he became the smartest player in the league and had to do something other than just jump over everybody.

Shaq hasn't made a similar transformation. If not for physical superiority, Shaq would not dominate. Jordan dominated even when he was no longer physically superior.

Thus, Jordan is the greatest player of all time, and Shaq is just a great player.

OutletPass
10-09-2003, 12:35 PM
What a joke...who else would be complaining about a contract extension with 3 years to go on his ?

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 12:37 PM
in fairness to shaq, he has made considerable strides with his touch around the basket. He now has an ugly little hook that somehow goes in.

but, when saying he's made considerable strides in that area really isn't saying much considering how little touch he had when first entering the league

and, he is a good passer from the center position

superheadcat
10-09-2003, 12:39 PM
ok, nevermind, kg edited it...

but still, i am curious how kg honestly thinks about larry bird, for example, in comarison with other black great players.

LRB
10-09-2003, 12:45 PM
I'll say that I dislike Shaq because of his IMO abrasive personality. ie he's a jerk. I really don't feel that he is that much of a team player either. And I agree with KG, that Shaq still relies almost entirely on his considerable physical attributes to dominate the game. And Shaq can't hold MJ's jock strap when it comes to greatness. Plus it's hard to like someone who after 10+ years in the league still can shoot FT's worth a darn and has the worst FT form I've ever seen.

Drbio
10-09-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by: OutletPass
What a joke...who else would be complaining about a contract extension with 3 years to go on his ?

Exactly. And showing up the owner is a pretty classless thing to do. Nice that Shaq is grateful for what Buss has done for him huh?

dirno2000
10-09-2003, 01:30 PM
Shaq is a personality. As such some won't like him, which is understandable. I actually like him for the reason that some don't. If he has a problem with David Robinson, he has no problem saying so. I find that refreshing. From everything I've seen and heard about him, he's a good teammate.

I donít agree with the argument that if Shaq were 6'11 240 he wouldn't be as good. How can we know this? He's developed his game based on his natural ability and physical characteristics. How do you know he wouldn't have adapted otherwise? The man has a cross over dribble for god's sake!

He doesn't dominate on size alone. Jerome James pretty big, but he's a spare. Shaq is quick, agile and coordinated. That's his edge. Plus, to echo Murphy, he's made himself into a really good passer. Malone will be the beneficiary of that more than once this year.

As far has his shooting that will always be bad. His wrist was broken and never healed right. You can tell by the was he shoots.

Jeremiah
10-09-2003, 02:03 PM

EricaLubarsky
10-09-2003, 02:06 PM
he's a good teammate.

yeah when he bitches at his team for not getting him the ball, and telling them openly he's pissed at their poor performance.

dirno2000
10-09-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

he's a good teammate.

yeah when he bitches at his team for not getting him the ball, and telling them openly he's pissed at their poor performance.

That's what he should do. What great player doesn't bitch when he doesn't get the ball. I want Dirk to bitch more. Most consider Jordan the greatest of all time and nobody was harder on teamates than him. I consider Magic the greatest, he was hard also. When it's all said and done those guys know Shaq is there for them.

LRB
10-09-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

he's a good teammate.

yeah when he bitches at his team for not getting him the ball, and telling them openly he's pissed at their poor performance.

That's what he should do. What great player doesn't bitch when he doesn't get the ball. I want Dirk to bitch more. Most consider Jordan the greatest of all time and nobody was harder on teamates than him. I consider Magic the greatest, he was hard also. When it's all said and done those guys know Shaq is there for them.


Classy people praise in public and critize in private the members of their team. Wait a minute, we're talking about Shaq. My bad. Shouldn't use the words "class" and Shaq in the same sentence.
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dirno2000
10-09-2003, 02:22 PM
Give me an example of Shaq calling out a teammate by name.

Plus, I'm not arguing about how classy he is. That's your opinion and I respect it. I'm saying he's a good leader. His troops rally around him.

EricaLubarsky
10-09-2003, 02:26 PM
Shaq adds nothing to the league; he makes the NBA far less like NCAA ball and more like WWF wreslting. Talking crap about his team and others, bending and breaking rules the rules of the game, and bringing on a villain persona. I don't want wrestling, I want basketball.

LRB
10-09-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
Give me an example of Shaq calling out a teammate by name.

Plus, I'm not arguing about how classy he is. That's your opinion and I respect it. I'm saying he's a good leader. His troops rally around him.

dirno2000 you're entitled to your opinion as well. As for examples of him bithcing about teammates in public, I'll have to get back to you later when I have time to do the research. I'm at work now.

dirno2000
10-09-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Jordan screwed with Washington pretty good by doing that.

He didn't screw up Washington. They werenít going anywhere with or without him. Kind of hard to knock his body of work.

As far as him adding nothing to the league, that's just not true. He adds a lot to the league from a business standpoint. He's one of the marquee attractions on the leagues glamour team. The league changed the playoff format in mid-season to make sure Shaq and Kobe advanced past the 1st round!

Everybody bends the rules. When's the last time someone was called for carrying. He's the hardest player in the league to officiate. He gets away with fouls, but all superstars get preferential treatment. He also gets fouled more than any player in the league.

EricaLubarsky
10-09-2003, 03:09 PM
The argument that if he makes the NBA more flashy, then he brings something to the NBA doesnt do anything for me because Im not looking for flash and entertainment value- Im looking for real basketball- competition where talent rises to the top. I see what the NBA is doing by giving the Lakers and Shaq special treatment, but I don't like it.

It undermines the NBA's credibility when a team/player gets special treatment and no one has gotten more than Shaq. It is difficult to ref his games, but there are many instances where Shaq uses illegal body contact to forge an advantage for himself, and those should always be called. There are many instances of non-calls where he will drop a shoulder into someone, wave the non-shooting arm or elbow-shove defensive players.

I guess your argument that "everyone does it" works for you, but when I look at Dirk's game I do not see the sheer percentage of obvious referree-observed abuses that I see with Shaq. It's one thing for a ref to miss something, another thing completely when a player uses his body to gain an obvious advantage on the court and the ref sees it and does not call it.

The fouls called against opponents are part of that trouble. Shaq gets advantages on both sides.

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 03:39 PM
the rules are not only bent for shaq, but they are bent against him as well, erika. He has to be the most difficult player in the NBA to officiate. Nearly every time he touches the ball, he's fouled at least once. Sure, many of the times, he could be committing fouls himself and/or traveling. Shaq must make NBA officials lives a living nightmare. Do you want him at the line 30 times by the end of the first half every game?

Shaq Attack2
10-09-2003, 03:54 PM
Even as a Laker fan, I find Shaq to have two main negative attributes:

1. Disrespectful: not really towards his teammates, which he has supported publicly for the most part for his entire Laker career, but disrespectful to other teams. This mostly centers around his clowning of the Kings, which as a Laker fan I find very funny, but as a basketball fan I know is simply uncalled for.

2. Questionable: questionable in terms of his work ethic. The two summers before this past summer, it was clear that Shaq was injured and that that had an impact on how much he was able to work out. However, there was no excuse for him to come in the league at the weight he was at last November, surgery or not. He simply did not diet properly and did not do his best to keep in shape. Asking for a contract extension any bigger than the one he has now is just plain stupid. Shaq will never play as well as he did 3 years ago when he was MVP, even though he can still get close to that form in the next couple years. Even then, it's not worth 30 million or more.

However, I also find Shaq to be quite hilarious at times (admittedly as a Laker fan sometimes). There are plenty of other players in the league that are more classless, duller, and just plain more idiotic than Shaq. The hatred for him usually just stems from jealously of his titles, and the fact that he's an L.A. Laker. I'm sure Kings, Mavs, or Spurs fans wouldn't be as hard on him as they are now if Shaq were on their teams. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

And no, the idea that Shaq's muscle and weight is the primary reason he is the most dominant player in the NBA doesn't make any sense. Otherwise, Sabonis would have been one of the greatest players in the NBA the last 10 years. i/expressions/rolleye.gif

EricaLubarsky
10-09-2003, 03:55 PM
the offication specifically talks about advantages. When Shaq is not called for shifting his weight to make room for himself, then players will hack at him. There is little advantage to tipping hands forward while trying to block a shot, but there are advantages to creating space for yourself illegally.

Shaq Attack2
10-09-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
the offication specifically talks about advantages. When Shaq is not called for shifting his weight to make room for himself, then players will hack at him. There is little advantage to tipping hands forward while trying to block a shot, but there are advantages to creating space for yourself illegally.

Not sure what you're getting at. A player can "shift their weight" as much as they like, as long as they make sure their opponent doesn't stand still out of the restricted area to take the charge. Backing someone down with your weight is perfectly legal.

Tarzan
10-09-2003, 03:59 PM
I think there is a simple solution to the officiating. Call a foul a foul. If Shaq gets fouled then call it. If Shaq commits a foul then call it.

Shaq Attack2
10-09-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by: Tarzan
I think there is a simple solution to the officiating. Call a foul a foul. If Shaq gets fouled then call it. If Shaq commits a foul then call it.

The problem is that the simple solution is not exactly simple to carry out.

dirno2000
10-09-2003, 04:03 PM
That sounds good in theory, but the NBA is a business first. Nobody wants to see Shaq foul out in the 1st quarter, or see him on the line 30 times in the first half.

EricaLubarsky
10-09-2003, 04:04 PM
You cannot create room for a shot by using an arm or other part of your body to push someone from their defensive position whether they are moving or not. Thats one rule.

Dont tell me they've gotten rid of that one.

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 04:06 PM
How often do players use illegal arm bars when guarding shaq? Virtually every play.

It's like the NFL. Officials have always said that they could call a penalty on every play. Hell, they usually say that they could call a holding penalty on every play. But is it realistic to do so? What would it do to the game?

Shaq Attack2
10-09-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
You cannot create room for a shot by using an arm or other part of your body to push someone from their defensive position whether they are moving or not. Thats one rule.

Not exactly. For example, it's perfectly legal for me to dribble the ball up court and use my left arm to create some space between myself and my defender, as long as it isn't excessive. It happens all the time and officials see it as clear as day. It becomes near impossible to back someone down to the hoop or drive inside for a basket if you can't protect yourself a little from other defenders.


Originally posted by: Murphy3
How often do players use illegal arm bars when guarding shaq? Virtually every play.

It's like the NFL. Officials have always said that they could call a penalty on every play. Hell, they usually say that they could call a holding penalty on every play. But is it realistic to do so? What would it do to the game?

Exactly. There is a grey area with the rules in any sport. In the NBA's case, using your arm or hand a little is not illegal until it becomes excessive. The officials define excessive just fine in my book, but others may disagree.

EricaLubarsky
10-09-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by: Murphy3
How often do players use illegal arm bars when guarding shaq? Virtually every play.

It's like the NFL. Officials have always said that they could call a penalty on every play. Hell, they usually say that they could call a holding penalty on every play. But is it realistic to do so? What would it do to the game?

How about the officiation in the NCAA? Because the refs call everything, there is no messing around. The rules are so much sharper than they are in the NBA, especially around star players. There is no reason at all to believe that the NBA has a grey area. The rules are clear and if advantage is given unfairly to one player for breaking the rules then it is a foul pure and simple. Either way.

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 04:16 PM
no, the refs don't call everything in college basketball. it's impossible to call everything. TJ Ford's already known for his NBA ball handling ability...he had the carrying the ball down to an NBA art while playing at UT

for shaq, the arm bar isn't the best example. not a bad one, but not the best. what would be better is how often do you see players attempting to move shaq with their lower body? plus, shaq is using his illegally as well.

it's impossible to call everything. many people believe that players allowed to get away with too much down low..it's not just the case with shaq, it's throughout the league. If you want to gripe at anyone, gripe at the detroit pistons when they were making their championship run. they're the ones that changed the game for the worse

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 04:19 PM
something that makes it very, very difficult to officiate in the NBA as compared to college ball is the skill, size, strength, and quickness of the athletes. They're simply on another level.
Increased size and strength obviously increase the physical nature of play in the NBA and make the job more difficult for the refs..

Psychedelic Fuzz
10-09-2003, 04:23 PM
I might be in the minority here, but I'd rather have refs letting things slide than have some technical happy clown like Joey Crawford coming out and showing off to the point where he could alter the outcome of a game.

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 04:41 PM
you have to let some things slide..there's simply too many fouls to call. I wish they attempt to get rid of some of the overly physical play in the paint. But, that would both hurt and benefit a player like shaq.

Obviously, I'd like to see the traveling and carrying violations called on a consistent basis. that seems like perhaps the easiest issue to address.

LRB
10-09-2003, 05:14 PM
While Shaq definitely does get fouled a lot he gets away with a tremendous amount more fouling others than he gets fouled himself. Percentage wise he is by far in the lead. All stars in the NBA get some form of the star treatment. Shaq's is just much more than others. And backing people down doesn't mean you get to run over them.

Murphy3
10-09-2003, 05:26 PM
LRB, i very seriously doubt that.

even befor shaq begins backing a player down, the defensive player is almost always illegally using arm bars or using their knee to try and gain leverage.

they go hand in hand.

LRB
10-09-2003, 05:33 PM
Murphy that may be your view, but what I see is most of the contact is initiated by Shaq. Yea the defenders do use some illegal tactics, because the refs will allow Shaq to run right over them with no call or a foul on the defender if they don't. And the defenders get calls on them much more than Shaq gets called for a foul.

EricaLubarsky
10-09-2003, 06:42 PM
I think we will leave it there. The fundamental argument seems to be based on facts that people can't agree on. LRB and myself see things differently than Murph, et al. We won't find any agreement here, but I urge people to watch Shaq playing especially in the last three years. Look at the types of calls and the number of calls. I will review old tapes I have of Shaq to see how he's knocked around too, but from what I have seen originally and upon review is that Shaq gets more swing because he is ineffective if the refs call him every time they should.

The argument about Shaq getting fouled more- people definitely foul him harder when they do, because coaches urge that; if you foul Shaq you foul him hard enough so that he will miss the shot and get freethrows.

Did you watch the Sacramento-Laker games in the Western Finals a couple of years ago? No one can deny that the officiation was uneven and horrible. There is a standard in each game, and that needs to be upheld.

LRB
10-09-2003, 06:48 PM
Did you watch the Sacramento-Laker games in the Western Finals a couple of years ago? No one can deny that the officiation was uneven and horrible. There is a standard in each game, and that needs to be upheld.

Actually I'd love to see the NBA's star system of reffing go away. Get rid of David Stern, an absolute must is change is to be enacted, and replace him with someone with a reputation for more credibility in officiating. Say Vince McMahon of the WWE for example. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

dallas_esq
10-09-2003, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Did you watch the Sacramento-Laker games in the Western Finals a couple of years ago? No one can deny that the officiation was uneven and horrible. There is a standard in each game, and that needs to be upheld.

Actually I'd love to see the NBA's star system of reffing go away. Get rid of David Stern, an absolute must is change is to be enacted, and replace him with someone with a reputation for more credibility in officiating. Say Vince McMahon of the WWE for example. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif
I don't see this inconsistent reffing in any other sport. It is an accepted truth all over the NBA that star players get more calls, get away with more. I don't see how anyone could refute that. The better player you are, the more calls you get. The harder you go at the basket, the more calls you get.

MavKikiNYC
10-14-2003, 07:48 AM
Sounds like Zen may be doubtful.

Shaquille O'Neal Has Bruised Left Heel
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: October 13, 2003


Filed at 9:20 p.m. ET

EL SEGUNDO, Calif. (AP) -- Shaquille O'Neal has a bruised left heel, an MRI disclosed Monday.

O'Neal sought the MRI because his heel hasn't improved since he injured it more than two weeks ago.

``I'm really not concerned at all about the injury,'' Los Angeles Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. ``I'm very surprised that he's got this type of an injury. Those are things that usually are minor.''

O'Neal participated in some half-court drills Monday, while Kobe Bryant only ran a bit as he continues rehabbing from offseason knee surgery.

``It's a disappointment for Shaq, if he's worked as hard as we've heard he's worked this summer to be in condition, that we haven't been able to build on that conditioning for the season,'' Jackson said.

The Lakers will hold a shootaround Tuesday in El Segundo before heading to San Diego for an exhibition game against Phoenix that night.

Jackson said he thinks O'Neal will play against the Suns. Bryant, however, isn't expected to play. He has to be back in Colorado on Wednesday for the second part of a preliminary hearing on the rape charges against him.

``Hopefully, he'll play a game before this week is up,'' Jackson said.

Bryant's next chance to get into his first preseason game will come Thursday and Friday when the Lakers host Cleveland, Phoenix and the Clippers in a four-team round-robin event.

Rookie Brian Cook will have surgery Tuesday to repair a fracture dislocation of his left ring finger. He is expected to be out a minimum of six weeks.

Cook, a first-round draft pick out of Illinois, averaged 1.5 points, 2.5 rebounds and 1.5 assists in 12 minutes in two preseason games.

Horace Grant is finding that his comeback is tougher than expected. He rested Monday because of a tight hip flexor, which Jackson attributed to ``a little bit of creakiness going on.''

Grant, 38, hasn't played since being released by the Orlando Magic last December. He played only five games with them last season.

``He'll find his way,'' Jackson said. ``There may be situations where he'll miss a game here or there.''

LRB
10-14-2003, 08:46 AM
No surprise here.