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Lvubun1
10-14-2003, 12:45 AM
Take it with a grain of salt but some guy on the Warriors board with a "inside source"(though he did post the Jamison-NVE trade a day before it broke) Said that the Knicks are going to send KVH and Lampe to GS for NVE.

If its true its much better then the KT/Ward trade, and it might work for both teams, though KVH blows.

Link (http://forums.warriorsworld.net/main/msgs/487929.phtml)

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 12:51 AM
i think i'd hold off on that deal if i'm the knicks..

Evilmav2
10-14-2003, 01:01 AM
That would be a devastatingly good trade for Golden State. Lampe might not pan out, but Van Horn is one of the most versatile, underrated big men in the league...

Build for the future Warriors, and don't look back! Van Horn would be a devastatingly effective partner for Dunleavy today, and Lampe could grow to become the bedrock of your team tomorrow! Additionally, disgruntled Nick the Quick would certainly enjoy the bright lights, if not the shitty Knick's teammates, of the Big Apple, and dealing him there might well forestall any future problems that lay in the Warriors future in terms of keeping the volatile Van Exel happy...

This looks like a win-win situation to me (at least for the next year or two of high level Van Exel production)- but this trade will eventually favor the Warriors, and might actually eventually counterbalance the heist that was the Mavs-GS trade of this Summer. If Mullin and the Warriors can make this happen, I think they would be insane not to pull the trigger...

EricaLubarsky
10-14-2003, 01:07 AM
I thought Dunleavy was the new SF prospect?!?!

If he's good enough to give away Jamison to develop, then he should start over KVF

I also thought that NYC thought that KVF was a magical missing piece.

dirno2000
10-14-2003, 01:08 AM
I can see NY moving Van Horn. Those fans will eat him alive. He doesn't strike me as a NY type of guy. He'd fit much better in GS. If Knicks fans liked Starks and Spree, they'll love Nick.

I thought NY liked Lampe.

ReDIRKulous
10-14-2003, 05:48 AM
Nick Van Exel would be such a fan favorite in New York, Scot Layden, (the Knicks GM) could probably save his job if they got him... even if they gave up Lampe and KVH to get him.

Hitman
10-14-2003, 06:32 AM
If Layden gave up Lampe for NVE New York would absolutely eat Layden alive and hang his remains in Times Square.

Once the baseball playoffs are over, that is.

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 07:26 AM
The New York media would eat NVE alive... How much patience do you think they have left up there? Do you think they have alot of patience for one of the most inconsistent players in the NBA? Hell no. NVE would quickly go into pout mode as soon as the NY media called him out for shooting around 30% in 10 of his first 13 games..but 70% in the other 3.

plus, NY would simply be giving up too much for NVE.

MavKikiNYC
10-14-2003, 07:44 AM
Won't happen.

ReDIRKulous
10-14-2003, 07:52 AM
Wasn't Spree a lot like NVE though? Didn't they love him, too? I thought that they were upset they lost Spree for KVH? So what they would essentially be doing is trading Spree and Lampe for NVE. But remember that most people thought we were dumb to give up NVE for Antawn(who is obviously better IMO, but the rest of the world doesn't see it that way). So is Lampe going to be better than Antawn? Oh... wait NY fans think Lampe is goign to be better than DIrk! lol

dirno2000
10-14-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by: Murphy3
The New York media would eat NVE alive... How much patience do you think they have left up there? Do you think they have alot of patience for one of the most inconsistent players in the NBA? Hell no. NVE would quickly go into pout mode as soon as the NY media called him out for shooting around 30% in 10 of his first 13 games..but 70% in the other 3.

plus, NY would simply be giving up too much for NVE

Nick may or may not pout but he'd bounce back. He had one of his biggest games (against SA) when the fans and media turned on him because of his Bush comments. He's mentally tough.

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 08:24 AM
He's not always mentally tough. I don't think that's what they'd call him in Denver or in LA. NVE had the perfect situation here in dallas. Why? He was in a winning atmosphere where he could come in and be the sixth man. As a sixth man, when you come in and look good, you often look like the 'hero'. However, in Dallas, there's very little scrutiny for the Mavs. Why? Dallas is a football town first...hell, basketball is probably third in line. The Mavs organization and their players simply aren't under the same type of microscope that players in New York are under.

Did they love Spree? Sure, sometimes. I would harely classify it as a huge consensus by any means either. Were they upset that they lost Spree? Well, yeah..for one reason. What reason is that? The media and fans didn't want KVH. He's not exactly a popular guy on the east coast.


I can think of no reason for an team already littered with some players that draw social security to bring in an aging PG in exchange for a couple of guys that could be long term pieces of the puzzle.

dirno2000
10-14-2003, 08:33 AM
Maybe we have a different definition of mentally tough, because in my mind, he's been mentally tough since college. He may have been immature in LA and Denver, but it didn't affect his game. When he steps on the court he brings it, no matter what's going on around him. When he's challenged he steps up.

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
Maybe we have a different definition of mentally tough, because in my mind, he's been mentally tough since college. He may have been immature in LA and Denver, but it didn't affect his game. When he steps on the court he brings it, no matter what's going on around him. When he's challenged he steps up.




Maybe we have a different definition of mentally tough, because in my mind, he's been mentally tough since college

Perhaps we do have a different definition of mentally tough. What is your definition?


He may have been immature in LA and Denver, but it didn't affect his game

I would say immturity has affected his game most of his career. How can a guy with as much talent and as good of a shot as NVE be a 40.7% career shooter? How can he be a 40% shooter in the playoffs? It isn't maturity. A mature player would probably have a little better shot selection.


When he steps on the court he brings it, no matter what's going on around him. When he's challenged he steps up

Well, once again, the statistics don't show this to be true. NVE is a 40% playoff shooter for his career. How could he ever be in a situation that is more challenging than the playoffs? What do the statistics show? They show that he's a good yet very inconsistent player. When he's hot, he can be dominant. When he's not, he can quickly lose a game for you. Last season in the playoffs, he was hot for an extended period of time. Yet, by the end of the playoffs, he had done a total 180 and was struggling to just have a positive impact on the court.

dirno2000
10-14-2003, 09:21 AM
I don't see the connection between his shooting percentage and his maturity. Nick is a 40% shooter. Always has been and always will be. He takes tough shots because he has so much confidence in his game. You may not like it, but that's just Nick. His maturity problems have been off of the court. Yet, while he was bitching about being in Denver, he still performed and did everything he could to help that team win.

How can you knock his career playoff shooting percentage when it mirrors his overall career percentage. You said yourself yesterday that very few players shoot a higher percentage in the playoffs.

Being mentally tough goes beyond the numbers. Think about the LA debacle in the 4th quarter when certain players were running away from the ball, Nick was taking shoots. He missed some and made a big one, but he was there. You can't talk Nick out of his game; you can be physical with him and get him out of his game. You just don't like his game, so if course you won't like him. I've said for year (long before he was a Mav) if I could have one player take the final shoot in a game, Nick would be in my top five. He has no fear in a league where lot's of players with game experience shrinkage in the last minute.

MavsFanatik33
10-14-2003, 09:36 AM
I think if New York was still going after Van Exel, they would have done it by now. Van Exel is going to remain a Warrior IMO.

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 09:49 AM
I don't see the connection between his shooting percentage and his maturity.
Basketball maturity...basketball intelligence. However you'd like to say it, it doesn't really matter. A player with NVE's ability to get to the basket and ability to shoot the ball should not shoot 40% for his career. Why does he shoot that poorly? Because he's not a mentally mature basketball player. He makes poor decisions with his shot selection.


He takes tough shots because he has so much confidence in his game
Perhaps he should lose a little bit of the confidence and gain a little more intelligence on when it's appropriate and not appropriate for him to take a shot.


His maturity problems have been off of the court.
I wouldn't tell that to Del Harris...also, see my first example.


Yet, while he was bitching about being in Denver, he still performed and did everything he could to help that team win.
NVE has been a good player his entire career. But, once again, he will always be haunted by his poor shot selection.


How can you knock his career playoff shooting percentage when it mirrors his overall career percentage. You said yourself yesterday that very few players shoot a higher percentage in the playoffs.
It's easy to knock a players shooting in the playoffs when it's lower than his career regular season percentages. Why? Because I'm also knocking his regular season percentages.


Being mentally tough goes beyond the numbers. Think about the LA debacle in the 4th quarter when certain players were running away from the ball, Nick was taking shoots.
Sure, there's no question that NVE is willing to take any shot at any time. Perhaps that means that he's not scared by any situation. Perhaps it could make him mentally tough. Yet, mental toughness without intelligent decision making does little good. And at the same time, Dirk, Fin, and Steve have all shown the willingness to take the big shots at any time in the game. Using one or two examples really doesn't do alot to challenge that.


You can't talk Nick out of his game
This is unfortunate at times. It would be nice to be able to talk him out of shooting so many low percentage shots. But hey, if that's his game, then his numbers will suffer.


You just don't like his game, so if course you won't like him.
NVE is a good player. I've never said that he wasn't. But, his 'game' isn't a good match with the Mavericks needs. The Mavs already have three big time players that perform in the clutch AND are much more efficient than NVE could ever be. NVE has his ups and downs. Fortunately for the him and the Mavs, he happed to be in an up for most of the playoffs last year. However, I'm more than happy to be rid of the inconsistency. Why? Because he takes shots away from more productive players, and he's just as likely to shoot 30% from the floor throughout the playoffs as he is to shoot 45-50%. I can live without that.


I've said for year (long before he was a Mav) if I could have one player take the final shoot in a game, Nick would be in my top five. He has no fear in a league where lot's of players with game experience shrinkage in the last minute
That's fine. He would have been my 4th option to take the final shot as a Mav last year. That's not a knock on NVE. But, he's very inconsistent. I'd much rather have Fin, Nash, or Dirk taking the last shot any day. Give me Dirk who will either knock down around 47% of his shots and/or get to the line. Give me Nash who actually makes it inside and finishes on a regular basis or shoots well over 40% from behind the arc. Give me Fin who is usually one of the better jump shooting 2 guards in the league. All three of these players have shown the ability to knock down tough shots in the clutch. Sure, they make some and miss some just like NVE. But, at least with Fin, Dirk, and Nash, you can almost guarantee that they'll get a good look. With NVE, you never know.

MavsFanFinley
10-14-2003, 10:15 AM
What a great trade for the Warriors...if it happens. This would certainly go a long way to redeeming the Warriors after the Mavs trade.

Good grief, NY can not seriously be considering this deal.

dirno2000
10-14-2003, 10:19 AM
I'm not going to knock any of the Mavs because they're my team, but I'd feel just as comfortable with Nick taking the last shot as I would with Fin and Nash. I'll give Dirk the edge because he's more likely to get the foul. There's a reason that everybodyís saying, "hopefully what Nick brought rubbed off on the team".

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 10:22 AM
How many clutch shots has fin, dirk, and nash drilled in big games the past 3 years or so? They all have an uncanny knack for coming up big in the clutch. I can't believe you're even mentioning that they are not.. Sometimes the mavs have issues with having too many good options in the closing seconds..but, i would be happy for any of the big three to get the last shot. I'll gladly take my chances with them.

dirno2000
10-14-2003, 10:25 AM
I never said they're not. I've seen them all muture into big shoot makers. I said I'd feel "just as comfortable" with Nick taking the last shot.

I also said I would let Dirk take the shot before the other three.

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 10:30 AM
So from this entire post, you basically have nothing that you'd like to contest?



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I don't see the connection between his shooting percentage and his maturity.
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Basketball maturity...basketball intelligence. However you'd like to say it, it doesn't really matter. A player with NVE's ability to get to the basket and ability to shoot the ball should not shoot 40% for his career. Why does he shoot that poorly? Because he's not a mentally mature basketball player. He makes poor decisions with his shot selection.


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He takes tough shots because he has so much confidence in his game
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Perhaps he should lose a little bit of the confidence and gain a little more intelligence on when it's appropriate and not appropriate for him to take a shot.


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His maturity problems have been off of the court.
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I wouldn't tell that to Del Harris...also, see my first example.


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Yet, while he was bitching about being in Denver, he still performed and did everything he could to help that team win.
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NVE has been a good player his entire career. But, once again, he will always be haunted by his poor shot selection.


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How can you knock his career playoff shooting percentage when it mirrors his overall career percentage. You said yourself yesterday that very few players shoot a higher percentage in the playoffs.
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It's easy to knock a players shooting in the playoffs when it's lower than his career regular season percentages. Why? Because I'm also knocking his regular season percentages.


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Being mentally tough goes beyond the numbers. Think about the LA debacle in the 4th quarter when certain players were running away from the ball, Nick was taking shoots.
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Sure, there's no question that NVE is willing to take any shot at any time. Perhaps that means that he's not scared by any situation. Perhaps it could make him mentally tough. Yet, mental toughness without intelligent decision making does little good. And at the same time, Dirk, Fin, and Steve have all shown the willingness to take the big shots at any time in the game. Using one or two examples really doesn't do alot to challenge that.


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You can't talk Nick out of his game
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This is unfortunate at times. It would be nice to be able to talk him out of shooting so many low percentage shots. But hey, if that's his game, then his numbers will suffer.


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You just don't like his game, so if course you won't like him.
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NVE is a good player. I've never said that he wasn't. But, his 'game' isn't a good match with the Mavericks needs. The Mavs already have three big time players that perform in the clutch AND are much more efficient than NVE could ever be. NVE has his ups and downs. Fortunately for the him and the Mavs, he happed to be in an up for most of the playoffs last year. However, I'm more than happy to be rid of the inconsistency. Why? Because he takes shots away from more productive players, and he's just as likely to shoot 30% from the floor throughout the playoffs as he is to shoot 45-50%. I can live without that.


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I've said for year (long before he was a Mav) if I could have one player take the final shoot in a game, Nick would be in my top five. He has no fear in a league where lot's of players with game experience shrinkage in the last minute
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That's fine. He would have been my 4th option to take the final shot as a Mav last year. That's not a knock on NVE. But, he's very inconsistent. I'd much rather have Fin, Nash, or Dirk taking the last shot any day. Give me Dirk who will either knock down around 47% of his shots and/or get to the line. Give me Nash who actually makes it inside and finishes on a regular basis or shoots well over 40% from behind the arc. Give me Fin who is usually one of the better jump shooting 2 guards in the league. All three of these players have shown the ability to knock down tough shots in the clutch. Sure, they make some and miss some just like NVE. But, at least with Fin, Dirk, and Nash, you can almost guarantee that they'll get a good look. With NVE, you never know.

u2sarajevo
10-14-2003, 10:35 AM
This is beginning to get ridiculous, the talk about NVE. Remember this is the guy that would frustrate during the regular season because of his uncanny tendency to be a ball hog. His annoying tactic of shoot first (and miss 60% of the time).

I understand that he was clutch and provided leadership in the post-season (I was a big proponent of his during the playoffs, and was sad to see him go), but I think that his absence is making hearts grow way fonder of him than he deserves.

...are we forgetting the playoff performances of Dirk and Fin(and Nash), not only in last years playoffs but the years prior?

dirno2000
10-14-2003, 10:39 AM
Depends on the situation and the look he's getting. I agree that Nick takes bad shots (althought last year there wasn't a big difference between him and Fin % wise). However, if overall fg% is the best indicator of who should shoot, then Najera should have led the team in shoots last year.

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 10:41 AM
Obviously, dirno, you can't JUST look at FG%.
Hopefully you would realize that no one is saying that you should solely look at FG%. Obviously, you have to look at how a player scores his points as well... how well a player can get to the line..

but none of that really helps NVE in comparison to the big 3

and if you're not going to respond to my above posts..i see no reason to further discuss this with you.

u2sarajevo
10-14-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
Depends on the situation and the look he's getting. I agree that Nick takes bad shots (althought last year there wasn't a big difference between him and Fin % wise). However, if overall fg% is the best indicator of who should shoot, then Najera should have led the team in shoots last year.

Although the missed shots are annoying, what I take issue with is the shoot first attitude he seems to bring into some games. That coupled with the majority of those shots not dropping into the basket makes him one of the most frustrating players last year. I had a love/hate relationship with him.

dirno2000
10-14-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by: Murphy3
Obviously, dirno, you can't JUST look at FG%.
Hopefully you would realize that no one is saying that you should solely look at FG%. Obviously, you have to look at how a player scores his points as well... how well a player can get to the line..

but none of that really helps NVE in comparison to the big 3

and if you're not going to respond to my above posts..i see no reason to further discuss this with you.

What did I not respond to? I must have missed something.

dirno2000
10-14-2003, 11:03 AM
I'm sorry; I didn't see the above post. I didn't respond to those points because I'm not arguing playoff MVP, Nickís overall merits, or any of the other Nick discussion thatís taken place over the few weeks. My initial point is that Nick would fit in NY because of he has the mental toughness to deal with the media and even the fans if they get on him.

It's obvious we have a different definition of mental toughness. You keep expanding it to his shot selection. I see that as a totally different issue. Obviously his shot selection is not the best at times and thatís why heís a 40% shooter.

Characteristics of a mentally tough player (IMO)
Extremely confident
You canít take him out of his game by talking to him
You canít take him out of his game by being overly physical
Does not let of the court distractions affect his game
Does not show shrinkage in big games or late in close games
Comes into games with the mind state the heís going to destroy the man across from him

This list is not all inclusive, just what I game up with off the top of my head. My contention is that NVE is a mentally tough player. Once again thatís why people are saying ďhopefully some of what he brought to the table rubbed off on the team."

kg_veteran
10-14-2003, 11:08 AM
This trade isn't happening.

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
I'm sorry; I didn't see the above post. I didn't respond to those points because I'm not arguing playoff MVP, Nickís overall merits, or any of the other Nick discussion thatís taken place over the few weeks. My initial point is that Nick would fit in NY because of he has the mental toughness to deal with the media and even the fans if they get on him.

It's obvious we have a different definition of mental toughness. You keep expanding it to his shot selection. I see that as a totally different issue. Obviously his shot selection is not the best at times and thatís why heís a 40% shooter.

Characteristics of a mentally tough player (IMO)
Extremely confident
You canít take him out of his game by talking to him
You canít take him out of his game by being overly physical
Does not let of the court distractions affect his game
Does not show shrinkage in big games or late in close games
Comes into games with the mind state the heís going to destroy the man across from him

This list is not all inclusive, just what I game up with off the top of my head. My contention is that NVE is a mentally tough player. Once again thatís why people are saying ďhopefully some of what he brought to the table rubbed off on the team."



If that's mental toughness, then it's definitely overrated.

Perhaps other players don't "take him out of his game by talking to him". Perhaps they do. NVE has a tendency to start talking crap with other opponents.. No, he doesn't back away. What does he do? He becomes even more of a one-on-one player. He gets pissed off and this stagnates HIS team's offense. Personally, I'd much rather have a player that keeps their cool and plays a team game instead of trying to make it into a pissing match...

I think we saw that in the Spurs series. NVE was so caught up in the hype and caught up in what he had done in the previous series that he decided that it was up to him to win it or lose it. He quickly became a selfish player that looked for his own shot instead of getting the ball to a red hot Mike Finley who was drilling around 50% of his shots. No, that's NOT toughness. That's the opposite.

Yes, he has an "F'em" attitude but that is not always a good thing. Especially when he decided to bend mike finley over and screw him in the San Antonio series.

Perhaps it's not showing "shrinkage" in the big games. But, perhaps he does the exact opposite. He's so full of himself that he cannot see that he's not the best option. That is not mental toughness. Mental cockiness, sure, maybe so. But not mental toughness.

ReDIRKulous
10-14-2003, 11:28 AM
I'd much rather have a player that keeps their cool and plays a team game instead of trying to make it into a pissing match...

A good example of this was game 6 against Sac. Nick had like 40 points in that game... but it was like 1 against 5 -- Nick Van Exel vs the Sacramento Kings. I think Nick played right into Sac's hands that night and the Mavs lost the game.

jayC
10-14-2003, 12:55 PM
I can count how many times shawn bradley has missed a dunk or been posterized yet you make nick sound as if he sucks. He is a clutch performer when finley and nash weren't right against sacramento he picked it up. And against portland he had some big games too. Don't penalize the guy for playing like nellie wanted him to play. And anyone would be devistated to go from a 60 win LA team to a Denver team with no shot at the playoffs. Even Kobe couldn't take the lakers to the playoffs without shaq 11-17 record without him.

Sure hes inconsistent but so are a half a dozen shooters in the league. But he steps up when it counts. Stop with the revisionist history. Dirk was average for most of the sacramento series just shooting 43 percent from the field nick stepped up when we needed him to. When is the last time you remember kobe willing his team to victory. I honestly can't remember. That it is why nick van exel is so damn good. Execuse my expletive but thats the way I feel about it.

ReDIRKulous
10-14-2003, 01:11 PM
I can count how many times shawn bradley has missed a dunk or been posterized yet you make nick sound as if he sucks.
Bradley isn't overrated though, that is the difference. Bradley is actually UNDERrated. He is a dominant defenseive player against 95% of the league... but as for clutch... Bradley is as anti-clutch as you can get I would guess. But anyway.. I do understand your point. But I personally always have said that Nick IS a good player.. just totally overrated and he is not a better player than any one of the big three, imo.

dirno2000
10-14-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by: Murphy3

Originally posted by: dirno2000
I'm sorry; I didn't see the above post. I didn't respond to those points because I'm not arguing playoff MVP, Nickís overall merits, or any of the other Nick discussion thatís taken place over the few weeks. My initial point is that Nick would fit in NY because of he has the mental toughness to deal with the media and even the fans if they get on him.

It's obvious we have a different definition of mental toughness. You keep expanding it to his shot selection. I see that as a totally different issue. Obviously his shot selection is not the best at times and thatís why heís a 40% shooter.

Characteristics of a mentally tough player (IMO)
Extremely confident
You canít take him out of his game by talking to him
You canít take him out of his game by being overly physical
Does not let of the court distractions affect his game
Does not show shrinkage in big games or late in close games
Comes into games with the mind state the heís going to destroy the man across from him

This list is not all inclusive, just what I game up with off the top of my head. My contention is that NVE is a mentally tough player. Once again thatís why people are saying ďhopefully some of what he brought to the table rubbed off on the team."



If that's mental toughness, then it's definitely overrated.

Perhaps other players don't "take him out of his game by talking to him". Perhaps they do. NVE has a tendency to start talking crap with other opponents.. No, he doesn't back away. What does he do? He becomes even more of a one-on-one player. He gets pissed off and this stagnates HIS team's offense. Personally, I'd much rather have a player that keeps their cool and plays a team game instead of trying to make it into a pissing match...

I think we saw that in the Spurs series. NVE was so caught up in the hype and caught up in what he had done in the previous series that he decided that it was up to him to win it or lose it. He quickly became a selfish player that looked for his own shot instead of getting the ball to a red hot Mike Finley who was drilling around 50% of his shots. No, that's NOT toughness. That's the opposite.

Yes, he has an "F'em" attitude but that is not always a good thing. Especially when he decided to bend mike finley over and screw him in the San Antonio series.

Perhaps it's not showing "shrinkage" in the big games. But, perhaps he does the exact opposite. He's so full of himself that he cannot see that he's not the best option. That is not mental toughness. Mental cockiness, sure, maybe so. But not mental toughness.

Mental toughness is not overrated. You may disagree with the extent to which those qualities apply to Nick, but there's never been a great player who didnít' have them. Mental toughness is essential.

The problem is that a lot of being mentally tough is playing your game no matter what. Well if you don't like Nick's game thatís a problem. I understand why you don't like his game and it is a defensible point. I could make an equally compelling case for the merits of Nick as a player, but both sides have already been argued to death.

As far as him "bending Michael Finley over" in the SA series, lets look at the losses:

Game 2 - Nick did shoot 5-16, but Mike took 20 shoots and Dirk took 18. Nash was cold, so somebody had to shoot the other shots. Plus the fact that we gave up 119 points probably contributed to the loss more than Nickís 16 shots.

Game 3 - Nick shot 6-15 (his 40%), but Fin was 4-11 and Dirk was 7-20. Doesn't look like he shot them out of this one.

Game 4 - Nick was 10-22 Mike was 10-19. Maybe he should have given Fin a couple of his shots, but it's not like he was shooting bad.

Game 5 - Nick was 8-19, Mike was 5-12. Nick's percentage was a little higher. If anybody was taking Fin's shots it was Walt who shot 15 times.

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 01:17 PM
sorry, but NVE should rarely have more attempts than finley...if they're both shooting poorly, i'd much rather see NVE actually distribut the ball to fin to help get him started


anyways, check out the "clutch" stats in the mavs section.

i think we can put to rest the idea that NVE is a clutch shooter in big situations... between the stats illustrating his playoff performances for his career and the clutch stats listed in the mavs section, it would be foolish to continue to argue PRO NVE as one of the top clutch performers in the league in big games or just overall.

NVE had a great playoff run last year...and yes, NVE IS a good player.. this is taking nothing away from NVE. It's just destroying the MYTH THAT IS NVE.

Epitome22
10-14-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by: Murphy3

i think we can put to rest the idea that NVE is a clutch shooter in big situations... between the stats illustrating his playoff performances for his career and the clutch stats listed in the mavs section, it would be foolish to continue to argue PRO NVE as one of the top clutch performers in the league in big games or just overall.


I'm sorry, but how do crunch time numbers for the regular season (that didn't include playoffs) during a season when he was a non starter, somehow put to rest the notion that NVE is a clutch shooter?

DrtyFlthyNasty
10-14-2003, 09:00 PM
honestly murph, why dont you like nick? why do you hate him?

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 09:20 PM
epitome, he's been a mediocre to poor shooter all his life. mediocre to poor shooters don't all of a sudden become top 5 clutch shooters when the game is on the line

sure, he might have gotten hot in the playoffs, but that IS NOT his norm. He's a worse shooter in the playoffs for his career than he in the regular season.

so what, does he shoot 30% in the first three quarters and 60% in the fourth?

come on, give me a break.. use your head

DrtyFlthyNasty
10-14-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by: Murphy3

so what, does he shoot 30% in the first three quarters and 60% in the fourth?


Thats all that matters. The last qtr. Rather have that then 100% in the first 3 qtrs and 30% in the 4th.

And murph seriously, why do you have such hate towards nick. I feel it in the way you write about him. What did he ever do to you? I mean I read some of your posts saying you wish him the worst and so on. What gives?

Murphy3
10-14-2003, 09:49 PM
don't be ridiculous, of course he doesn't shoot 30% from the field in the first three quarters and 60% in the 4th.


I don't 'hate' NVE.

please, come up with a logical/intelligent response to anything...hell, it doesn't even have to be about NVE..just anything

DrtyFlthyNasty
10-14-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by: Murphy3
don't be ridiculous, of course he doesn't shoot 30% from the field in the first three quarters and 60% in the 4th.


I don't 'hate' NVE.

please, come up with a logical/intelligent response to anything...hell, it doesn't even have to be about NVE..just anything

ok i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

Max Power
10-14-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by: Murphy3
sorry, but NVE should rarely have more attempts than finley...if they're both shooting poorly, i'd much rather see NVE actually distribut the ball to fin to help get him started.

Very true.

If Finley gets his offense rolling then he is far more effective than NVE. Plus when Finley is cooking on offense then he is usually boarding and playing defense (a concept that has eluded NVE for his entire career).

Why do I care if NVE scores 20 if he gives up the same 20?

Lvubun1
10-15-2003, 03:03 AM
Chad Ford pretty much killed all Knicks rumors today so I don't expect it to happen.

Epitome22
10-15-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by: Murphy3
epitome, he's been a mediocre to poor shooter all his life. mediocre to poor shooters don't all of a sudden become top 5 clutch shooters when the game is on the line

I'm sorry? is your assessment that whether someone's clutch or not depend on their shooting percentage overall? that which includes the first 3 quarters of the game or those 4th quarters where the game isn't on the line? Your initial assessment that it could be proven by your NBA Clutch scorers link that Nick is not clutch. Those stats are completely compiled during the 4th quarter or overtime when the game is on the line. That's a matter of contradiction there. For the sake of argument, let's assume that you'll stick with your initial assessment that the NBA Clutch scorers link you posted is plenty evidence that Nick isn't clutch. Also for the sake or argument, let's push aside the fact that the numbers were compiled during a season in which Nick didn't start and that they didn't include playoff numbers. That NBA clutch scorers link in various categories featured names such as Jerry Stackhouse, Andre Miller, Allen Iverson, Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Lattrell Spreewell, Chauncey Billups, Jamal Mashburn, Jalen Rose and a few others. All players with poor to unremarkable shooting percentages be it last season, career wise or both. Some of them even poorer than Nick's. Yet somehow all of these players are noted for their ability to excel with the ball in their hands when the game is on the line. You know, those "clutch" situations. So to answer your question, yes, sometimes medicore to poor percentage shooters become clutch performers when the game is on the line. Any other questions?




sure, he might have gotten hot in the playoffs, but that IS NOT his norm. He's a worse shooter in the playoffs for his career than he in the regular season.

Do you perhaps have a statistic on hand that compiles all of Nick's statistics from the playoffs during those "clutch" situations when the game is on the line? Fair enough, for argument's sake, let's assume your argument that him shooting poorer percentage overall in the playoffs(an important time) is further evidence of how unclutch Nick is. According to that Link you posted, there appear to be some players listed as clutch performers, even some who have otherwise respectable shooting percentages, who have some rather pitiful performance records in the playoffs. Paul Pierce (.401%) Iverson (.396%) Mashburn (.389%) Billups (.385%) Marbury (.363%) Marion (.388%) Michael Redd (.404%) Eric Snow (.408%) Rashard Lewis (.418%) Stackhouse (.352%) Cassel (.408%) Van Horn (.400%) Spreewell (.417%) Not to mention those players who's playoff shooting numbers, while respectable, are a considerbale drop off from their regular season numbers, and the fact that the number of players on that list and the NBA in general who shoot a poorer percentage in the playoffs than they do in the regular season is near uncountable. So what's the deal? are these players "clutch" shooters or not?




so what, does he shoot 30% in the first three quarters and 60% in the fourth?

I'm not sure. Perhaps you could order game transcripts and compile the numbers yourself?



come on, give me a break.. use your head

I just did.

Murphy3
10-15-2003, 11:08 AM
hey, never said that just because you're a clutch performer in the regular season that you must do so also in the post season.

just said the NVE stays pretty much at the same level regardless of whether or not it's the playoffs OR the regular season.

NVE is inconsistently consistent


Sure, many players are perfectly capable of being 'clutch' performers in the regular season but then not putting up good numbers in the playoffs.

However, to date, no one has posted one ounce of evidence to show that last year's post season was nothing more than a 'once in a lifetime' thing for NVE. Until last year, he had been a very mediocre performeer in the playoffs. I'm glad he got hot for an extended stretch. He helped the mavs to extend their season. However, his performance in the playoffs last year are not indicative of what he's done over his career in the post season.

Epitome22
10-15-2003, 11:18 AM
I don't 'hate' NVE.


I don't know whether you "hate" NVE or not but it is very clear you do not like him ,and that dislike is not completely based on NVE's BBall play but rather on personal afflictions you have with him, be they imagined or otherwise. You have repeatedly trashed him since he initally arrived with the Mavericks from the Denver trade. When he has had successes you have rarely given him his due and have never missed an opportunity to undermine any of his successes or exaggerate any of his failures. Even if you wish to argue that any such disagreements stem from your dislike of Nick as a player and not any personal grievance you have with him, your passages (which you have graced us with more than once) in which you communicate in plain words that you "wish for nothing but failure" for him and also adding in another post "i'm tired of his sorry-ass attitude
i wish for nothing but failure for the guy for the rest of his basketball career someone has to fail..and I pick him"

Quotes that range from peculiar and unsettling to downright disturbing. Add onto that the fact that your new signature is devoted to your uest to whipe away the "myth of NVE" I think it's safe to say you have a hateful, personal grievance against the man that borders on unstable and I imagine compromises your mental health to some degree.

kg_veteran
10-15-2003, 11:23 AM
I think it's safe to say you have a hateful, personal grievance against the man that borders on unstable and I imagine compromises your mental health to some degree.

Glad to know who the resident mental health professional is.

LRB
10-15-2003, 12:34 PM
Where's the statistical evidence that NVE has been a clutch performer throughout his carreer? I'm not talking about a few games, because even average players can have a few good clutch shooting games. I like NVE and believe that at times he can be great and can hit big shots. But he also can shoot his team out of games and series in the playoffs. Just because you hit 4 game winners out of 10 opportunities doesn't necessarily make you a great clutch shooter. No doubt NVE is one of the more talented players in the league and I would love to have him back if we didn't have to give up more talent than we receive. Of course that's what makes a great trade for your team, getting more talent than your give up. I think we did that in the GS trade. That doesn't mean NVE sucks. And just because NVE is a very good talent, doesn't mean he's one of the greatest shooters of all time or even currently in the NBA.

Hitman
10-15-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by: LRB
Where's the statistical evidence that NVE has been a clutch performer throughout his career".... he also can shoot his team out of games and series in the playoffs.

This is NVE in a nutshell.

Is he afraid to take the big shot?

No.

Should he shoot the big shot?

Probably not, except if he is on the Warriors or Nuggets.

On the Mavs, certainly not.

Murphy3
10-15-2003, 09:33 PM
I don't know whether you "hate" NVE or not but it is very clear you do not like him
What exactly does this have to do with our conversation? I dislike Kobe Bryant as much as I dislike NVE. However, it does not affect what I think about his abilities on the court. I know that Kobe is a top 5 player in this league.

What does it tell me when you use this as part of your comeback? It tells me that you're grasping for anything to hold onto just to stay alive in this discussion.


You have repeatedly trashed him since he initally arrived with the Mavericks from the Denver trade

Once again, what does this actually have to do with our discussion of NVE being a clutch player? Absolutely nothing. Stick to the topic. If that's all you have to hang on to, I'd suggest not replying.

You know what? I've gont through your entire thread, and there is absolutely nothing of substance. I'm ashamed that I even replied to it. If you'd actually like to stick to the topic at hand, let me know. Until that point, straying off the subject in an attempt to discredit me does absolutely nothing for your argument

XERXES
10-15-2003, 10:19 PM
I'd be willing to pony up more for Lampe than what GS is offering. I know it won't happen...but that would be a steal for GS. Lampe will be a legit 5 in 2 years and those (especially in "Big D") are hard to come by!

Epitome22
10-16-2003, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by: Murphy3
[quote]

What exactly does this have to do with our conversation?

This has very little to do with "our" conversation. Your remarks still stand as do my rebuttals. This has to do with another poster's insinuation that you hate NVE and your Denial of the allegation in which I contributed my own thoughts.



I dislike Kobe Bryant as much as I dislike NVE. However, it does not affect what I think about his abilities on the court. I know that Kobe is a top 5 player in this league.

I do not know the levels to which you dislike certain athletes and will spend no time trying to equate them on some type of chart. I do not know whether or not your supposed dislike of Kobe Bryant, compromises your assessment of him as a player, but I would argue your dislike of NVE certainly does.




What does it tell me when you use this as part of your comeback? It tells me that you're grasping for anything to hold onto just to stay alive in this discussion.

Hardly, and the otherwise cool and calm Murph needn't be so defensive and accusing (struck a nerve?). Your sophmoric attempts to discredit NVE are still undermined by my rebuttals which are still there, based on the exact same evidence you used to try and prove your point. This is a separate matter altogether (though somewhat related) dealing with your brooding despise of NVE, the depths of which are so great, you cannot cloak the fact that you sometimes openly wish failure upon him.





Once again, what does this actually have to do with our discussion of NVE being a clutch player? Absolutely nothing. Stick to the topic. If that's all you have to hang on to, I'd suggest not replying.


You're right, it has little if anything to do with our discussion of whether or not Nick is a clutch player and everything to do with your assessment that you don't "hate" NVE which I proved very much otherwise. If me using your own words and actions against you is toll infuriating, I would suggest you refrain from making such statements.


You know what? I've gont through your entire thread, and there is absolutely nothing of substance. I'm ashamed that I even replied to it. If you'd actually like to stick to the topic at hand, let me know. Until that point, straying off the subject in an attempt to discredit me does absolutely nothing for your argument

The only thing lacking of substance was your initial case. Standing on weak legs and easily knocked down by the most insignificant gust of wind. It may yet be proven that NVE's reputation is a complete fraud, but certainly not by you, no matter how many disturbing hateful thoughts you have about the man. Using my clamping down on you about your statement that you don't hate NVE as an excuse to exit a losing argument on your side is a slightly clever but painfully obvious one. Too bad. Game over. Try again.

Murphy3
10-16-2003, 07:30 AM
can you actually tell me where i'm wrong in any area of this conversation?

LRB
10-16-2003, 09:41 AM
So NVE isn't going to the Nick's because Murphy3 personally doesn't like NVE? i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif