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LRB
10-17-2003, 02:16 PM
Kobe Has Yet To Play In Preseason (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1639817)

Associated Press
LOS ANGELES -- Beleaguered Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant did not play against LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers on Thursday night. It is possible he will see his first preseason action Friday against the Phoenix Suns, though.

"I haven't ruled out tomorrow for Kobe, depending on how feels," Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. "I think he could play five minutes, seven minutes, something like that."

After returning from Eagle, Colo., after the end of a preliminary hearing in his sexual assault case, Bryant was excused from the team's morning shootaround Thursday. He was not available for comment before the game against the Cavs -- the Lakers' fourth game of the preseason.

Bryant has not taken part in full practices or scrimmages while recovering from knee surgery. He said he lost 15 pounds during the offseason, mostly from stress, and his conditioning will be a factor when he eventually returns to the court.

Friday night's matchup with the Suns will be the final preseason game at Staples Center, and Jackson seemed to feel it was important to get Bryant onto the court in a non-hostile environment.

"It's kind of good to get him into a public arena in a situation where there's a game-type situation against other NBA players," Jackson said.

The Lakers' final three preseason games will be played in Bakersfield, Anaheim and Las Vegas. They open the regular season Oct. 28 at home against the Dallas Mavericks.

Shaquille O'Neal (bruised heel) also sat out against Cleveland. Jackson said he did not know when O'Neal would be ready to play.

LRB
10-17-2003, 02:17 PM
I knew that he had lost weight, but didn't realize it was as much as 15 lbs. I wonder just how ready he will be for the opener against us?

Drbio
10-17-2003, 02:40 PM
I contend that the Lakers area better team right now without the drama queen.

Shaq Attack2
10-17-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by: Drbio
I contend that the Lakers area better team right now without the drama queen.

And everyone else contends you're on drugs. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

LakerMania
10-17-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by: Drbio
I contend that the Lakers area better team right now without the drama queen.


After going 8-8 and dropping 21 points in the 4th quarter in one of the greatest comebacks in NBA history, I can see why you might think he has some drama in his game. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Epitome22
10-17-2003, 05:53 PM
Agreed.


Kobe is excellence

LRB
10-17-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by: Epitome22
Agreed.


Kobe is excellence

Kobe has a good chance of being the next MVP (Most Vaulable Prisioner)

DrtyFlthyNasty
10-17-2003, 06:36 PM
kobe is a very very good player with awesome talent, but its all shaq. if shaq wants to win, the lakers WILL win.

MavsFanFinley
10-17-2003, 09:44 PM
Bryant out vs. Suns; unlikely to play Sunday

By CHRIS SHERIDAN, AP Basketball Writer
October 17, 2003

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Just 24 hours after saying he wanted Kobe Bryant to get some playing time Friday night, Lakers coach Phil Jackson pushed back the timetable for Bryant's return by several days.

``He's not ready to play. I think it's more conditioning than (his surgically repaired) knee,'' Jackson said prior to the Lakers' exhibition game against the Phoenix Suns.

Shaquille O'Neal, hampered by a bruised heel, also sat out against Phoenix.

``We are listing them as day to day, but the chances of them playing Sunday are slim and remote,'' Jackson said.

A Colorado judge is to decide Monday whether to order Bryant to stand trial on a sexual assault charge. A 19-year-old Eagle, Colo. woman accused the Los Angeles Lakers' guard of raping her June 30 at the mountain resort where she worked. Bryant has said the two had consensual sex.

Bryant has not scrimmaged or taken part in a full practice with the Lakers, yet Jackson said Thursday that he'd like to get Bryant on the court for five to seven minutes in Friday night's exhibition game -- the Lakers' last appearance at the Staples Center prior to their regular season opener against Dallas on Oct. 28.

The Lakers play the Cavaliers in Bakersfield on Sunday night, then have three days off before playing the Clippers next Thursday in Anaheim and the Sacramento Kings next Friday night in Las Vegas.

``The fact that he hasn't been able to practice, we'd just as soon not have a player -- unless he's pretty much up to speed with who we are -- just jump on the floor and play rather than practice and get himself acclimated to the team,'' Jackson said.

``We have practice Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday where I'm hoping he gets on the floor and starts to practice with us then, and that'll open the opportunity for him to maybe play during the last two exhibition games. We'll just wait and see.''

Drbio
10-18-2003, 12:27 AM
I love when whiney sour grapes spew from the unintelligent minds of Laker fans. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif


They are much better without the sideshow.

Shaq Attack2
10-18-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by: Drbio
I love when whiney sour grapes spew from the unintelligent minds of Laker fans. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif


They are much better without the sideshow.

Give it a rest, the Lakers are not better without Kobe.

Drbio
10-18-2003, 11:24 PM
Of course they...you are just too homer to realize it.

Psychedelic Fuzz
10-18-2003, 11:29 PM
I definitely think they are better without the distraction. With the new weapons in LA, and the kobe circus, I think he's irrelevant at best. the fortune of this team is dependant on shaq anyway.

EricaLubarsky
10-18-2003, 11:34 PM
Kobe scored a lot of points but he didnt spread the Defense. I think without him they have more talent. If they can play together as effortlessly as they did two years ago, they will win a championship. I really doubt they can do that this year, though.

Shaq Attack2
10-19-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by: Drbio
Of course they...you are just too homer to realize it.

I won't even ask you to support that ridiculous argument, because I know you can't. I'll just let the regular season and playoffs speak for themselves. I just hope that when reality hits you (the reality being that Kobe is essential to the Lakers' success) you'll be man enough to admit that you were wrong.

Drbio
10-19-2003, 12:46 AM
SA2 pulls it out of the butt again. Is there no flaker board for you to troll? I wouldn't expect an ignorant flaker fan to open his mind to the fact that kobe will add nothing more than distraction to his team. Idiot.

Shaq Attack2
10-19-2003, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by: Drbio
SA2 pulls it out of the butt again. Is there no flaker board for you to troll? I wouldn't expect an ignorant flaker fan to open his mind to the fact that kobe will add nothing more than distraction to his team. Idiot.

Haha, predictable answer. i/expressions/rolleye.gif

jayC
10-19-2003, 12:51 PM
Drubs,
I hate the lakers but too. But they aren't better without him. Could they win a title without him maybe, shaqs the mvp of the team so I don't know?

Psychedelic Fuzz
10-19-2003, 02:37 PM
Kobe is not in shape. The situation is obviously taking its toll on him. I think his play will be lackluster until this blows over. That, in combination with the sideshow that will be following the lakers around could make kobe a liability for an otherwise great team.

LRB
10-19-2003, 02:42 PM
Kobe is a cancer with tremedous talent. However his isn't fully recovered from his surgery, he's out of shape, and his mind isn't near 100% on the game. He's more distraction than benefit right now.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 05:09 PM
Okay,

If I heard right Kobe has not been going to his rehabilitation
He has not been at training camp
he has lost 15 pounds
he hasnt been playing ball
he had a feud with Shaq last year
he is probably not happy about now
he probably is not focused on basketball
fans and the media will be all over him whenever he plays

How is he going to help the team? Even if he was the best SG in the game before the end of the season, temporal issues have diminished his ablilities on the court and his mindset both on and off. The team will be better without him and his circus

grbh
10-19-2003, 05:56 PM
Erica, let's just say Kobe takes a huge step nackward this year. Say 20 points, 5board, 4 assists, and plays slightly above average D. Does that not help the Lakers?

Granted I don't even think his numbers will be that close to the poor, but to contend the Lakers are better without Kobe, asinine.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 06:01 PM
You never talked about those objections, some of which are serious. IF he hasnt played, hasnt played with his team, hasnt practiced for months and has gotten out of shape he is not going to be "Kobe".

And normative words like Asinine? C'mon.

Kobe hasnt fully recovered from surgery
AND he's going to test the team's chemistry
AND he's going to test the team's resolve
AND he's going to bring cruelly close media attention to himself and his team
AND he's out of shape and hasnt been practicing

grbh
10-19-2003, 06:18 PM
Most of your objections are valid, but the circus is their Kobe or no Kobe. If he doesn't play the media is still hounding the players to get their opinion on the trial etc. It won't go away for the lakers even if Kobe isn't playing, tempered perhaps

Kobe probably isn't in great shape, has his mind on other matters. That said he is still a great player, and if he puts up those terrible numbers for him he is still an asset to the Lakers.

Murphy3
10-19-2003, 06:25 PM
kobe's gonna have to be hobbling on one leg with a dozen pending rape charges for the lakers not to be better with him than without him

LRB
10-19-2003, 07:07 PM
Actually I remember year before last when Fin came back to the Mavs after being out with an injury and the Mavs having gone on a big win streak that the Mavs were actually temporarily worse off until Fin and the team could get readjusted to each other and Fin was back fully to playing shape. Kobe although more talented than Fin, has more problems physically and has serious chemistry problems from his "Me 1st" attidtude. Kobe still has lots of talent, but it's not about the numbers that he brings, but about the disruption of a team desperately trying to gel.

Murphy3
10-19-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by: LRB
Actually I remember year before last when Fin came back to the Mavs after being out with an injury and the Mavs having gone on a big win streak that the Mavs were actually temporarily worse off until Fin and the team could get readjusted to each other and Fin was back fully to playing shape. Kobe although more talented than Fin, has more problems physically and has serious chemistry problems from his "Me 1st" attidtude. Kobe still has lots of talent, but it's not about the numbers that he brings, but about the disruption of a team desperately trying to gel.

no reason to even make this comparison. kobe is a top 5 player in the league...fin is a top 40..maybe top 25 during the time period you're discussing.
The NBA is a game of superstars,..no way in hell they're better without having someone of kobe's level in the game. Playing with controversy won't be a big issue for any of the main players on the lakers team..

LRB
10-19-2003, 08:09 PM
Kobe's no where near a top 5 player right now. The NBA depend a good deal on superstar, but teamwork and team chohesion is still very important. A bunch of superstars dosen't guarrantee anything. Remember houston with Hakeem, Barkley, and Pipen?

Drbio
10-19-2003, 08:14 PM
Sat what you want to...the fact remains that the flakers are better without showbe right now. Ignore the facts if you want, but it is your deficiency....not mine.


And SA2...if I had wanted to hear from an asshole I would have farted. Stop being a dick on a Mavericks site please. Go be a dick in a Laker board.

Murphy3
10-19-2003, 08:26 PM
i guess it means alot to be a better pre-season team

grbh
10-19-2003, 09:11 PM
This thread making me crazy. To say the Lakers are better without Kobe is about the dumbest sports point I have ever heard.

Shaq Attack2
10-19-2003, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by: grbh
This thread making me crazy. To say the Lakers are better without Kobe is about the dumbest sports point I have ever heard.

Agreed.


Originally posted by: LRB
Kobe's no where near a top 5 player right now.

Highly debatable. You have no idea what game shape Kobe is in right now, you haven't seen him play in 5 months.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by: grbh
This thread making me crazy. To say the Lakers are better without Kobe is about the dumbest sports point I have ever heard.

Thanks for your comments on how dumb Dr Bio and my thoughts are.

You also never asnwered anything. Show-be is a cancer on the team, and thats the end of it. Until you can say, "Kobe put up good numbers and brought his team together" then I think your idea is the "Dumbest Sport Point I have ever heard"
i/expressions/rolleye.gif


The NBA is a game of superstars,..no way in hell they're better without having someone of kobe's level in the game.

The NBA is also a game of chemistry and talent. Kobe has not shot hoops for months, he has not worked out in months, he has not gone through therapy on his knee and shoulder, he has the body of a rookie after an injury, he is distracted, he is a cancer on the team and that is the end of it.

grbh
10-19-2003, 09:46 PM
Fine Erica, i would like you to give me a scenario where the Mavs are better without Dirk. I will start listening to you then.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by: grbh
Fine Erica, i would like you to give me a scenario where the Mavs are better without Dirk. I will start listening to you then.

It doesnt work that way. Dirk
A) isnt a cancer
B) doesnt have another identical upcoming 7'0" PF behind him
D) is a leader
E) isnt hounded by media about one of the worst crimes someone can commit against someone else
F) isnt out of shape
G) Played, practiced and worked on his game all summer
H) Put on 10 pounds instead of losing 15
I) Is a Power Forward, a position that the Mavs need.
J) And Dirk didnt have a knee surgery over the summer that he has neglected to rehabilitate.
K) Is focussed on winning in the NBA
L) Isnt feuding with his coach
M) Isnt feuding with team members

I dont know why I repeated this. I thought by my quantified objections which you never responded to you would easily be able to assume the same statemements could be made for Dirk.

LRB
10-19-2003, 09:57 PM
Highly debatable. You have no idea what game shape Kobe is in right now, you haven't seen him play in 5 months.

and Kobe hasn't played or worked out in months. You don't have to see someone not to expect them to be top 5. His very absence speaks that he's nowhere near top 5. Even the greastest to ever play couldn't step back in and resume top form. MJ on his first come back was no where near top 5 the 1st season although he was in MVP form the next. The difference? Working out all summer, coming to camp in shape and ready to play, and participating fully in team training camp and preseason. Kobe hasn't done any of these. Therefore it's safe to assume he's nowhere close to where he was. His team composition has changed greatly and he's hard very little time even on the practice floor to get used to his new teammates. No one, not Kobe, not MJ, no one can come back and be at top 5 form under these circumstances.

Drbio
10-19-2003, 09:59 PM
grbh- this has nothing to do with Dirk. I'm not going to get into a pissing match over some dipshit flaker player, but showbe is a gargantuan distraction on that team. It would be best for them to allow him to get his situation handled. He doesn't look like the physical specimen he usually looks like, Shaq is busting on him openly, noone has really backed him outside of the obligatory remarks, and even he isn't sure if he should play based on his comments. Ergo...the flakers would be better off without him at this point.

edit---> As soon as he can devote all of his time to the game, then the flkaers would be better with him....until then, he is a distraction and not good for the team.

sike
10-19-2003, 10:06 PM
Dear Doc, I listen to what you say....but man, you are just wrong!...
THere is no other player in the league with less than a minute in the game greater than Kobe....and that could be said for the previous 47 minutes as well.....now I hate him, don't get me wrong...but he is greatness

I know what you are thinking, but I respectfully disagree with ya on this one...

grbh
10-19-2003, 10:13 PM
Actually Erica I covered most a lot of your posts in my previous posts.

I am going to answer them all for your edification now, though I would like a good reason form you why he is actually a greater detriment to his team than what he brings to the table.


He has not been at training camp

Partilarly true, however he hasn't missed the entire camo.


he has lost 15 pounds

Looks like it


he hasnt been playing ball

Granted not as much, but he has been playing some


he had a feud with Shaq last year

Well that is interesting. I suppose that is the first tie that has happened.


he is probably not happy about now

No he is probably not. I never knew that unhappy people are detrimental to their team though


he probably is not focused on basketball

Not exlusively, but I am sure it is a priority.


fans and the media will be all over him whenever he plays

Definately the first time he will ever be following him closley, and boo him

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by: Drbio
grbh- this has nothing to do with Dirk. I'm not going to get into a pissing match over some dipshit flaker player, but showbe is a gargantuan distraction on that team. It would be best for them to allow him to get his situation handled. He doesn't look like the physical specimen he usually looks like, Shaq is busting on him openly, noone has really backed him outside of the obligatory remarks, and even he isn't sure if he should play based on his comments. Ergo...the flakers would be better off without him at this point.

edit---> As soon as he can devote all of his time to the game, then the flkaers would be better with him....until then, he is a distraction and not good for the team.

my thoughts exactly. When he can bring it, he will help the team but right now he will not. We'll see in the PHX@LAL game if he plays that.

Drbio
10-19-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by: sike
Dear Doc, I listen to what you say....but man, you are just wrong!...
THere is no other player in the league with less than a minute in the game greater than Kobe....and that could be said for the previous 47 minutes as well.....now I hate him, don't get me wrong...but he is greatness

I know what you are thinking, but I respectfully disagree with ya on this one...

I think you are wrong. It's no problem to disagree though. I understand your point, I just don't think showbe plays well and will be a huge distraction.

grbh
10-19-2003, 10:18 PM
Doc I don't disagree that he is a huge problem, but he is still a bigger asset than distraction. This team wins more game with him at SG than without. IMO

Drbio
10-19-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by: grbh
Doc I don't disagree that he is a huge problem, but he is still a bigger asset than distraction. This team wins more game with him at SG than without. IMO
I have no problem with that opinion. I still think the flakers will be better off in the long run if kobe is nowhere near the team until he gets the legal crap behind him.

grbh
10-19-2003, 10:26 PM
Isn't that legal crap still there even if Kobe disappears. Granted itr is less but isn't every question:What do you think about Kobe's situation: Do you fell like Kobe left this team, ec.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 10:26 PM
No he is probably not. I never knew that unhappy people are detrimental to their team though

Danny Fortson, Anthony Mason. Do you want more names?


Not exlusively, but I am sure it is a priority.

Priority #1- Dont go to jail for life Priority #2- keep the marriage together for the kid and for priority #1


Definately the first time he will ever be following him closley, and boo him

Huh? I dont know if this will be as big of a deal, but the crowds will always be less favorable. The bigger point is media scrutiny


he hasnt been playing ball

When you are an NBA player, and you miss months of regular practice, you are really rusty


Looks like it

the bigger deal is that he hasnt been conditioning.


Partilarly true, however he hasn't missed the entire camo.

He has yet to play a single game in the preseason. Thats pretty scary when 40% of your starting lineup has changed and the rest of the team is practically all new.

Epitome22
10-19-2003, 10:30 PM
You also never asnwered anything. Show-be is a cancer on the team,

any particular objective reason you are referring to kobe Bryant by a derisive nickname?


and thats the end of it. Until you can say, "Kobe put up good numbers and brought his team together" then I think your idea is the "Dumbest Sport Point I have ever heard"

If for some reason the burdern of proof of whether or not Kobe is a "cancer" to the Lakers rests on if and only if he puts up good numbers and brings the team together to charge for a championship, then I think in equal respect any assessment that he is a "cancer" to the team becomes valid when and only when you can document that Kobe's poor physical health, the stigma of his scandal and feuds with teammates are bringing his team losses and keeping them out of a playoff race. Not based on amatuer speculation and conjecture.



Kobe has not shot hoops for months, Could you please give us a more detailed and specific rundown of Kobe's off/pre season training regimen or lack thereof? If for some reason you cannot meet this request, a simple link to an article or quote from Kobe himself or a trainer or Phil jackzen or a clsoe friend, paraphrasing in whatever sense that "Kobe has not shot hoops for months"




he has not worked out in months, he has not gone through therapy on his knee and shoulder, he has the body of a rookie after an injury,

I think we can do some simple consolidation here and say that the assessment that Kobe is a cancer to the team because of his current sup-par physical conditioning. His rookie body has more to do with the drama in his life currently that's most likely affected his eating habits and workout regimen than any injury he recieved. Assuming that Kobe is aquitted of charges, the only matter of consideration if we are to even speculate if Kobe is detrimental to his team as it wouldn't matter if he was going to jail. If so, he will get better, start eating again and get back into shape. Shaq plays himself into shape every year, why not Kobe for a season?





, he is a cancer on the team and that is the end of it.

cancer is a strong label, one that requires a greater burden of proof than speculation on various reasons as to why kobe may be detrimental to the team. A Cancer is something that can rot away a franchise and spoil the whole club. Such labels have been applied to Nick Van Exel (and rightly so) as well as Stephon Marbury. Beyond the current drama that follows Kobe around this year, I see no reason to think that the 5 time all star, 3 time champ, and man many conclude to be the most talented player in the game today, is a cancer.

grbh
10-19-2003, 10:34 PM
Erica, I am not rude very often, but I'm going to be here. I don't like Kobe; he bugs me, and he might be a rapist.

I could continue to play the qupte breakdown game, but it gets tiring.

That said Kobe is one of the best players in the NBA, and to say the Lakers are better without him, makes you look like an enormous homer.

And I still haven't heard how the Mavs are better without Dirk?

Drbio
10-19-2003, 10:40 PM
What I see happeneing here is that everyone pretty much agrees on showbe's talent level. We only disagree on whether or not it would be best for the flakers to have him around at this point in time. I think he needs to settle his legal and domestic issues before playing. It is in the best interest of him, his family, the legal system, and imho the flakers. My opinion won't change on that and those who don't agree and feel showbe should play through will probably not change either. At least respect the other view, no matter which side you fall on in this issue.

LRB
10-19-2003, 10:50 PM
That said Kobe is one of the best players in the NBA

Kobe WAS one of the best players in the NBA. Whether he still is, is a very debatable point. Physically he's nowhere close to where he has been physically when he was one of the best players in the NBA. He hasn't practiced or been able to work out near like he had been able to. And he has a felony trial hanging over his head that could send him to jail for the rest of his life. That would affect almost anyone's concentration. And to top if off he has to try and overcome an infedelity problem in his marriage. Gee, IMO, that's plenty of room to doubt that Kobe is anywhere close to being one of the best in the NBA.

Epitome22
10-19-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

That said Kobe is one of the best players in the NBA

Kobe WAS one of the best players in the NBA. Whether he still is, is a very debatable point. Physically he's nowhere close to where he has been physically when he was one of the best players in the NBA. He hasn't practiced or been able to work out near like he had been able to. And he has a felony trial hanging over his head that could send him to jail for the rest of his life. That would affect almost anyone's concentration. And to top if off he has to try and overcome an infedelity problem in his marriage. Gee, IMO, that's plenty of room to doubt that Kobe is anywhere close to being one of the best in the NBA.

IMO it's not much room at all to doubt whether or not Kobe is still one of the best players in the NBA because very little of it has anything to do with his physical playing ability and the little that does is in no way something that is permanant or career affecting. The rest is conjecture and speculation that frankly, doesen't amount up too much. It doesen't become a very debatable point of whether Kobe is still one of the greats until he steps out on the court and shows that he can't play anymore. The most that could be feasibly summed from this conjecture is that Kobe will have a poor season. None of it has any impact on whether or not Kobe is one of the elite players in the league, until his play demonstrates this season and successive seasons that it does.

Drbio
10-19-2003, 11:03 PM
Isn't it also conjecture and speculation to assume the legal and home problems won't affect him negatively?

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 11:05 PM
cancer is a strong label, one that requires a greater burden of proof

I didnt know this was a court room. There is no burden of proof. This is just childish. Cancer is a metaphorical term used often on this site and others for a player that hurt a team. Period. Youve been around for a while you should know that.

What I said is that I wouldnt believe Kobe would be worth having until he actually played AND helped his team. That is not burden of proof material.

And if you dissagree with me then you dont think he is a cancer right now. This isnt some court case here.


any particular objective reason you are referring to kobe Bryant by a derisive nickname?

because he no longer is Kobe, he is a television show and a newspaper column AND I stole it from Dr. Bio. Go bug him about it.

Not based on amatuer speculation and conjecture.

Where, on any place on this thread is there an example of anything but "speculation and conjecture". What I say is speculation and conjecture, but what others say about last years performance is not?


think we can do some simple consolidation here and say that the assessment that Kobe is a cancer to the team because of his current sup-par physical conditioning. His rookie body has more to do with the drama in his life currently that's most likely affected his eating habits and workout regimen than any injury he recieved. Assuming that Kobe is aquitted of charges, the only matter of consideration if we are to even speculate if Kobe is detrimental to his team as it wouldn't matter if he was going to jail. If so, he will get better, start eating again and get back into shape. Shaq plays himself into shape every year, why not Kobe for a season?

If you would have read my posts carefully you would have read that my assessment of Kobe is a temporal one. Right now and until Kobe gets into shape and gets his legal and psychological matters taken care of he is a cancer. Shaq's lack of an excercise regimen doesnt have anything to do with this.


Such labels have been applied to Nick Van Exel (and rightly so) as well as Stephon Marbury.

Wait, I need to give evidence for why a player who doesnt play for the team and is on trial for RAPING A WOMAN is a cancer but Starbury and NVE, you admit, are? Try to keep yourself straight, Epi


I see no reason to think that the 5 time all star, 3 time champ, and man many conclude to be the most talented player in the game today, is a cancer.

You admitted yourself he is out of shape and not the same guy as last year. Let me quote LRB because you arent reading enough of this thread.


Kobe WAS one of the best players in the NBA. Whether he still is, is a very debatable point. Physically he's nowhere close to where he has been physically when he was one of the best players in the NBA. He hasn't practiced or been able to work out near like he had been able to. And he has a felony trial hanging over his head that could send him to jail for the rest of his life. That would affect almost anyone's concentration. And to top if off he has to try and overcome an infedelity problem in his marriage. Gee, IMO, that's plenty of room to doubt that Kobe is anywhere close to being one of the best in the NBA.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by: Drbio
What I see happeneing here is that everyone pretty much agrees on showbe's talent level. We only disagree on whether or not it would be best for the flakers to have him around at this point in time. I think he needs to settle his legal and domestic issues before playing. It is in the best interest of him, his family, the legal system, and imho the flakers. My opinion won't change on that and those who don't agree and feel showbe should play through will probably not change either. At least respect the other view, no matter which side you fall on in this issue.

good rundown, Dr

LRB
10-19-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by: Epitome22

Originally posted by: LRB

That said Kobe is one of the best players in the NBA

Kobe WAS one of the best players in the NBA. Whether he still is, is a very debatable point. Physically he's nowhere close to where he has been physically when he was one of the best players in the NBA. He hasn't practiced or been able to work out near like he had been able to. And he has a felony trial hanging over his head that could send him to jail for the rest of his life. That would affect almost anyone's concentration. And to top if off he has to try and overcome an infedelity problem in his marriage. Gee, IMO, that's plenty of room to doubt that Kobe is anywhere close to being one of the best in the NBA.

IMO it's not much room at all to doubt whether or not Kobe is still one of the best players in the NBA because very little of it has anything to do with his physical playing ability and the little that does is in no way something that is permanant or career affecting. The rest is conjecture and speculation that frankly, doesen't amount up too much. It doesen't become a very debatable point of whether Kobe is still one of the greats until he steps out on the court and shows that he can't play anymore. The most that could be feasibly summed from this conjecture is that Kobe will have a poor season. None of it has any impact on whether or not Kobe is one of the elite players in the league, until his play demonstrates this season and successive seasons that it does.

The point is Kobe hasn't even been able to step out on the court and show us anything. It may not be conclusive to absolutely determine whether he's totally slipped out of elite status or not. But there is still lots of room for legitimate debate. Just because he's to F'ed up to play, be it mentally, physically, or a combination of the both doesn't mean there is no room to debate his ability. Considering how a layoff can affect even the greatest players. And all Kobe needs to really drop to is the level of Fin, not to a Raja Bell, for it to be ablicable that the Lakers might be better without him than with him.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by: grbh

And I still haven't heard how the Mavs are better without Dirk?

I told you. Next time read the posts. I thought it would be obvious by telling you what was wrong with Kobe and what Dirk is doing that makes him NOT a cancer. I read all your posts. The considerate thing would be to read mine before commenting

Epitome22
10-19-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by: Drbio
Isn't it also conjecture and speculation to assume the legal and home problems won't affect him negatively?


It's a valid assumption to assume that Kobe's legal and domestic woes would affect his playing. It' sobviously taken a toll on him physically. But it is speculation and conjecture when you are making the case that such current woes will be a career altering experience or that they will somehow turn arguably the best player in the game into a non elite caliber player.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 11:12 PM
The point is Kobe hasn't even been able to step out on the court and show us anything. It may not be conclusive to absolutely determine whether he's totally slipped out of elite status or not. But there is still lots of room for legitimate debate. Just because he's to F'ed up to play, be it mentally, physically, or a combination of the both doesn't mean there is no room to debate his ability. Considering how a layoff can affect even the greatest players. And all Kobe needs to really drop to is the level of Fin, not to a Raja Bell, for it to be ablicable that the Lakers might be better without him than with him.

I award LRB 6 points.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 11:12 PM
the "derisive" 2x

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 11:14 PM
But it is speculation and conjecture when you are making the case that such current woes will be a career altering experience or that they will somehow turn arguably the best player in the game into a non elite caliber player.

Read my post next time.

Epitome22
10-19-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: Epitome22

Originally posted by: LRB

That said Kobe is one of the best players in the NBA

Kobe WAS one of the best players in the NBA. Whether he still is, is a very debatable point. Physically he's nowhere close to where he has been physically when he was one of the best players in the NBA. He hasn't practiced or been able to work out near like he had been able to. And he has a felony trial hanging over his head that could send him to jail for the rest of his life. That would affect almost anyone's concentration. And to top if off he has to try and overcome an infedelity problem in his marriage. Gee, IMO, that's plenty of room to doubt that Kobe is anywhere close to being one of the best in the NBA.

IMO it's not much room at all to doubt whether or not Kobe is still one of the best players in the NBA because very little of it has anything to do with his physical playing ability and the little that does is in no way something that is permanant or career affecting. The rest is conjecture and speculation that frankly, doesen't amount up too much. It doesen't become a very debatable point of whether Kobe is still one of the greats until he steps out on the court and shows that he can't play anymore. The most that could be feasibly summed from this conjecture is that Kobe will have a poor season. None of it has any impact on whether or not Kobe is one of the elite players in the league, until his play demonstrates this season and successive seasons that it does.

The point is Kobe hasn't even been able to step out on the court and show us anything. It may not be conclusive to absolutely determine whether he's totally slipped out of elite status or not. But there is still lots of room for legitimate debate. Just because he's to F'ed up to play, be it mentally, physically, or a combination of the both doesn't mean there is no room to debate his ability. Considering how a layoff can affect even the greatest players. And all Kobe needs to really drop to is the level of Fin, not to a Raja Bell, for it to be ablicable that the Lakers might be better without him than with him.

We're talking about a layoff of maybe 2-3 months permanantly affecting Kobe' elite ability. Players have been seriously injured longer than that, missed more time and still seemed to pick up where there careers left off. Considering that there isn't even a potentially career altering injury factored in, then that is just not a sound argument.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 11:17 PM
That said Kobe is one of the best players in the NBA, and to say the Lakers are better without him, makes you look like an enormous homer.


congratulations! DrBio, LRB and Myself are the newest homers to the board.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 11:18 PM
We're talking about a layoff of maybe 2-3 months permanantly affecting Kobe' elite ability

no.

we arent.

Epitome22
10-19-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

But it is speculation and conjecture when you are making the case that such current woes will be a career altering experience or that they will somehow turn arguably the best player in the game into a non elite caliber player.

Read my post next time.


??? I'll make a note to read your post next time when I'm actually addressing you or something which you have said.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 11:24 PM
LRB wasnt talking about Kobe's career either. If you had read any of DrBio, LRB's or my posts you would know that.

Anyway, Im getting some sleep and as there isnt a true answer here I will show my respect to those that disagreed with me, although I wont for those that didnt read the posts and didnt follow the real arguments being made.

Is Kobe a cancer on his team right now? Maybe. Are his ablilities on par with last year? Definitely not. Is anyone arguing that he wasnt a top5 player or that he cannot become one again? no.

ten points to all for playing. It's nice to get some hot debate going, although it left the real subject at the bottom of the first page. My reponse to GHB might have started that.

Epitome22
10-19-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

We're talking about a layoff of maybe 2-3 months permanantly affecting Kobe' elite ability

no.

we arent.


??? You're right WE Weren't but since you joined the discussion, since my statements were addressed to LRB particularly his case which can be summed up with the paraphrasing of "Kobe Was one of the best players in game" and no longer is, allegedly because of something that's happened in the last few months then yes that is what "We" are talking about.

EricaLubarsky
10-19-2003, 11:30 PM
??? You're right WE Weren't but since you joined the discussion, since my statements were addressed to LRB particularly his case which can be summed up with the paraphrasing of "Kobe Was one of the best players in game" and no longer is, allegedly because of something that's happened in the last few months then yes that is what "We" are talking about.

Come on man. Let me say it again to pad my number of posts, No one is saying Kobe wasnt a great player and no one is saying that he won't get back to that level. The only thing I have read and I have read all the posts, is that Kobe's talents are diminished right now.


You're right WE Weren't but since you joined the discussion

Since I joined the discussion? You were specifically responding to something said earlier, so when did you switch and since when has anyone been talking about the above. Oh, maybe you are awarding yourself value because I somehow jumped into the argument much later. It was your first post that somehow established your earlier place in this thread


Originally posted by: Epitome22
Agreed.


Kobe is excellence

LRB
10-19-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by: Epitome22

Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: Epitome22

Originally posted by: LRB

That said Kobe is one of the best players in the NBA

Kobe WAS one of the best players in the NBA. Whether he still is, is a very debatable point. Physically he's nowhere close to where he has been physically when he was one of the best players in the NBA. He hasn't practiced or been able to work out near like he had been able to. And he has a felony trial hanging over his head that could send him to jail for the rest of his life. That would affect almost anyone's concentration. And to top if off he has to try and overcome an infedelity problem in his marriage. Gee, IMO, that's plenty of room to doubt that Kobe is anywhere close to being one of the best in the NBA.

IMO it's not much room at all to doubt whether or not Kobe is still one of the best players in the NBA because very little of it has anything to do with his physical playing ability and the little that does is in no way something that is permanant or career affecting. The rest is conjecture and speculation that frankly, doesen't amount up too much. It doesen't become a very debatable point of whether Kobe is still one of the greats until he steps out on the court and shows that he can't play anymore. The most that could be feasibly summed from this conjecture is that Kobe will have a poor season. None of it has any impact on whether or not Kobe is one of the elite players in the league, until his play demonstrates this season and successive seasons that it does.

The point is Kobe hasn't even been able to step out on the court and show us anything. It may not be conclusive to absolutely determine whether he's totally slipped out of elite status or not. But there is still lots of room for legitimate debate. Just because he's to F'ed up to play, be it mentally, physically, or a combination of the both doesn't mean there is no room to debate his ability. Considering how a layoff can affect even the greatest players. And all Kobe needs to really drop to is the level of Fin, not to a Raja Bell, for it to be ablicable that the Lakers might be better without him than with him.

We're talking about a layoff of maybe 2-3 months permanantly affecting Kobe' elite ability. Players have been seriously injured longer than that, missed more time and still seemed to pick up where there careers left off. Considering that there isn't even a potentially career altering injury factored in, then that is just not a sound argument.

Really which players have had a several month layoff and been able to come back at their previous level without fully rehabilitating, without several weeks of working out and practicing, and with a major felony charge hangin over their heads? Just who are these players.

And there are several players who have had injuries and off the court problems who have never been able to come back to their previous levels. Just because some do, doesn't mean all do. And most don't immediately get back to their former level. There takes a breaking in period where they just don't play at that level.

IMO Kobe should be back and practicing for several weeks before playing or the Lakers risk him being more of a detrimate than a positive just from the physical aspect. Now you throw in the emotional baggage that wouldn't fit on a 747, who knows what will happen. BTW how do we know that this isn't a potentially career altering injury? I doubt that it is, but nothing is 100% certain. Any injury that requires surgery has a potential to be career ending.

And how will kobe handle the pressure. What he's going through, no popular athelete of his magnitude has gone through at his age and while competing. Roy Tarpley and a host of others succumbed to emotional pressure that wasn't near what Kobe is going through. Maybe he will come through fine. Maybe he won't. But to think that it will have little affect on him is very naive IMO.

Shaq Attack2
10-20-2003, 12:11 AM
Are his ablilities on par with last year? Definitely not.

You're assuming that Kobe needs to be in 2003 shape to be effective, and you're sorely mistaken. A 2002 Kobe is more than adequate (Lakers did win the title that year after all), and he's still a legit MVP candidate in 2002 form. Kobe gained 15 pounds of pure muscle in the summer of 2002 and lost 15 pounds of muscle this past summer. He's gaining it back as we speak, and it's reasonable to assume (based on his history) that he will be back to 2003 form (or better) by the end of this year.


Is anyone arguing that he wasnt a top5 player or that he cannot become one again? no.

Then what's the point of even having a debate about Kobe being a top 5 player if the person debating that point knows that Kobe will likely be in top 5 shape within a 2 or 3 months anyway? Is it just to say "Kobe will not be in shape for 12 whole weeks!", knowing that that period will be insignificant to begin with?

And again, this is all assuming Kobe's play will be affected by the rape trial. Based on his history of coming through during adversity, that's a silly assumption. Sure, it's a rape charge and it's quite serious, but tell me again why Kobe should be scared at all if he knows he's innocent? If I'm innocent and have the best lawyers money can buy am I really going to be affected by those facts while playing basketball? Please. Of course, it's a whole other story if he's guilty in reality. But again, no one but Kobe knows that. And again, no one but Kobe knows how his marriage will be affected by this case. For all we know it's brought the couple closer.

Therefore, right now, any speculation about how Kobe's play will be affected negatively by the rape trial isn't based on any evidence whatsoever. People arguing that Kobe will not be affected by the rape trial on the court have his history to point to as evidence to support their argument. Me, Iím taking a neutral stance on this because itís such a serious charge that has garnered massive media attention. However, if I have to lean somewhere I will lean towards Kobe being between 2002 and 2003 form for the beginning of the season and well on his way past 2003 form by next yearís playoffs.

EricaLubarsky
10-20-2003, 12:19 AM
SA2 you are using as much speculation as we are. Just so you know.


Then what's the point of even having a debate about Kobe being a top 5 player if the person debating that point knows that Kobe will likely be in top 5 shape within a 2 or 3 months anyway?

You are saying EXACTLY what everyone else has said and THAT is a waste of time. If you dont want to be a part of a debate that has to do with Kobe's current abilities then don't comment here, buddy.



this is all assuming Kobe's play will be affected by the rape trial.

No, its not. Its assuming that coming back in poor shape will affect his play. Its all based on the fact that Kobe lost 15 pounds and hasnt kept up with his conditioning and training

Shaq Attack2
10-20-2003, 03:55 AM
SA2 you are using as much speculation as we are. Just so you know.

Just so you know, you're wrong.


You are saying EXACTLY what everyone else has said and THAT is a waste of time. If you dont want to be a part of a debate that has to do with Kobe's current abilities then don't comment here, buddy.

I have been commenting on the debate just fine. Apparently you'd rather nit pick how good Kobe will be as of this very moment than actually admit that, based on his history, Kobe will be back to true form within just a couple months. Though, only when the realization of this fact dawns on you towards the end of the year when Kobe will be playing MVP ball will you admit as much, and admit that it's of basically zero consequence if Kobe is in 2002 or 2003 shape at this very moment given that either Kobe is still an MVP candidate.


No, its not. Its assuming that coming back in poor shape will affect his play. Its all based on the fact that Kobe lost 15 pounds and hasnt kept up with his conditioning and training.

No, apparently you don't really follow Laker basketball much so it's understandable that you under little of what's actually going on here. In the summer of 2002, Kobe decided to go on what's called the 6-6-6 program, something he had never done (at least in its fullest form) before. The 6-6-6 program is intensive, calling for 6 hours of workout per day for 6 days a week for 6 weeks straight. The workout is usually heavily oriented toward weight training, but I believe Kobe said he did some significant cardiovascular workout as well.

Anyway, this past summer, Kobe obviously didnít have the time (or inclination) to continue with this program or at least do some variation of it, since too much of the 6-6-6 can affect play negatively, as weighing 220 lbs is more than enough given his height (and too much actually if you ask me, he played better defense in 2002 when he was lighter IMO). So understandably, Kobe lost 15 lbs this summer and is back around the 205 mark he was at in 2002.

Anyway, the point is that Kobeís 6-6-6 program that allowed him to gain that 15 lbs of muscle in the summer of 2002 simply wasnít executed this summer. To say he is out of shape or not conditioned is false when Kobe himself said he was still able to get in some workout this summer (this was said about 3-4 weeks ago) and also when he said just a couple days ago that he felt unusually well conditioned for this time of year (at this point, Kobe had been training for two weeks). When Kobe plays in his first game this Thursday it will have been about 3 weeks since training camp.

In the end, itís ludicrous to think that Kobe is out of shape based on some hack job article or based on Philís media-twisting Zen comments. Though, you donít have to agree of course, just wait until this Thursday and perhaps then you'll have a different tone.