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Nicky31
11-06-2003, 09:54 AM
I know that is early in the season, but I don't know how many shots A. Walker took away from D. Nowitzki last night. A. Walker is trying to take Dirk's role on this team, and it's making me sick. In my opinion he has thrown our starting 5 spots out of wack. Him being the starting PF for this team makes me sick because your saying he is a more dependable PF than Nowitzki, and that's insane... i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif


I love what Nellie has done with this team, but he has gone away from the core of this team the BIG 3...

Any possible trade senarios for Walker to get a defensive player inside the paint because that should be a bigger concern for this team in my opinion?

Murphy3
11-06-2003, 10:00 AM
Don't penalize Walker for simply playing solid basketball.
It's up to the coach from time to time to call someone's number. In Dirk's case, Nellie probably should have put him down on the blocks early in last nights game to get him going.

It's just 5 games into the season. A bit early to start talking about 'trading Walker'.
Let's give the team a little more time than slightly over a couple of weeks.

Nash13
11-06-2003, 10:05 AM
This is exactly what Nelson wants. 31, get used to seeing the ball in Walker's hands the most. Also, Dirk couldn't penetrate and had a hard time shooting. You can't blame Walker for that.

Charlie Brown
11-06-2003, 10:06 AM
it's too early to say, but from what i've seen early on, i can see why antoine walker was a problem in boston and why ainge wanted him out. he definitely does have a very dominant personality, seeks to be the leader, and likes the ball in his hands. now, that would be great if he was a michael jordan, tim duncan, or even a dirk nowitzki, but . . . he's antoine walker, a guy who's average in the post, average from the three point line, and slightly above average passer for somone his size. now, he has put up good numbers so far, but his shots and possessions have come at the expense of nash, fin, nowitzki, and jamison . . . all guys who, besides finley, are far more efficient shooters.

i don't see a lot of this being a problem early on but later on, as games get more important, and especially in fourth quarters, i'd really hate to see walker take a chunk of crunch time shots because he believes himself to be the best player on the floor when in fact he has to defer to dirk.

i'll give this time, but i don't feel good about this . . . and if we had to trade someone, i'd trade walker over jamison, although it appears that Nellie has got some man-crush on walker at the moment.

Nicky31
11-06-2003, 10:09 AM
Murph,


How can you defend A. Walker after last night?

He was trying to score when he was being doubled, and D. Nowitzki was wide open out on the 3 point line begging for the ball not once but several times.

In my opinion, A. Walker is starting to show signs of why the Celtics wanted him gone so badly.

madape
11-06-2003, 10:14 AM
Antoine Walker makes this team a devastating half court team. He passes the ball better than any big man in this league, with the possible exception of Chris Webber. He has incredible range, he can run the court, he's a decent defender, he's an incredible leader. He's just a great, great player. Ainge didn't want him in Boston because he perceived Walker as a selfish player who cared about nothing more than his stat line, and who's game consisted entirely of jacking up three pointers.

Ainge was dead, dead, wrong about Walker. He's one of the most versatile forwards in this league and I really think he gets more joy out of making a great pass than he does about dropping threes on people's heads.

He makes Dirk better. He makes the whole team better. Sure, he'll take some shots away from Finley, Nash, and Dirk. But the overall quality of shots on this team will be much better with Walker on the court than with someone like Jamison, who is basically a "give me the ball and get the hell out of my way" type of player. Don't get me wrong, I love Jamison, but Walker is on another level. He is perfect for this team. I hope we don't do something stupid and trade him for a mediocre big man. That would be just plain stupid.

Note to Ainge: Yes, I'm talking about you. Stupid.

Murphy3
11-06-2003, 10:20 AM
Personally, I like what Walker can bring to the Mavs especially when him and Dirk are both down low.

However, I just don't see that happening enough. The two have shown the ability to play off of each other down low already this season. However, when Dirk's stuck out behind the three point line, it's difficult getting much going on between the two down low.

As long as Walker is taking high percentage shots, then I have no problem with him shooting.

Dirk and Walker will work extremely well together. Now, it remains to be seen how well Jamison will necessarily fit into the picture. Sure, he's a very good player, but just how many PF's do you need that can post up and hit the three? How much room is there down on the low blocks?

Am I advocating trading Jamison? No, not at all. I'm just not as certain as to how he fits into the equation.

grbh
11-06-2003, 10:20 AM
To this point Walker is doing everything I hoped he would.

Distribute, Rebound, Improve Shot Selection.

Almost all his shots have been within the flow of the gaem. Very few of the random jacked up 3s. He is averaging about 4.5 3s a game as opposed to 7.5-8. While that is still probably a little high for my liking it is hard to get on him too much when he is shooting them at 43%.

Yes, Dirk needs his shots, but maybe those should come at the expense of Fin, Nash, Jamison. and others not Walker.

If Walker continues to do what he is doing for the remainder of the season this trade will go down as a coup.

seelenjaeger
11-06-2003, 10:24 AM
Fine, Nicky, following your logic "he was trying to score while so-and-so was wide open LAST NIGHT" you have to ...

- trade Nowitzki for not hitting the glass, nor his shots.
- trade Finley for not hitting his shots, nor playing D with effort.
- trade Jamison for forcing up shots frequently recently.
- trade Nash for his injury prowness and his sometimes out-of-control game.
- trade NVE for his jacking up of in-your-face-three.

Oh, wait, we did the latter. No. Not true. He was traded for his lack of D, and size. Not for his offense.

Actually A.W. (and AJ) was carrying our abysmal offense last night, while Dirk and Fin were as cold as the Ice at the Southpole.

What Iīve seen so far from A.W. makes me think he will fit in pretty fine with the Mavs, and that heīs more than willing to leave the spotlight to those who can carry the team further than he himself. I just havenīt seen much from those already.

Murphy3
11-06-2003, 10:28 AM
Actually A.W. (and AJ) was carrying our abysmal offense last night, while Dirk and Fin were as cold as the Ice at the Southpole.

Well, unfortunately we have no way of knowing whether or not dirk would have been hot early in the game or even up until the end of the first half. Four attempts in the first half is simply unacceptable (the 4th was a rushed attempt shortly before half time intermission)

However, I do not place blame on Walker.

ItalianMobbstah187
11-06-2003, 10:28 AM
Antoine is doing just fine.....no reason for this thread....

Murphy3
11-06-2003, 10:30 AM
So far, he's been the best player for the Mavs this year. But, it is just 5 games.

kingrex
11-06-2003, 10:39 AM
I almost didn't post as Murph and Madape have pretty much stolen all my thunder, but I have to question the way Madape described Jamison. Do you mean he is a more selfish player than Walker or do you mean he has less ability to pass out of the post?

As for the validity of this thread, I feel it is too early to call for any trades of anyone, and more so to call for a Walker trade.

As for Ainge, he traded Walker because he wanted his voice to dominate that team and Walker held too much sway on that team to keep him there.

Charlie Brown
11-06-2003, 10:45 AM
definitely, walker has played well thus far. shooting high percentage shots, passing the rock, etc. but i think he's been unselfish because he's trying to feel his way into the team.

all i'm saying is that i see signs that walker may overrate his offensive skills and i just get this feeling that he may be the one that screws us in crunch time by taking shots away from dirk. hasn't happened yet, but i'm just predicting that's what will happen.

also, if you look at all the top teams, most of the offense is run through their superstars: duncan, shaq and kobe, garnett, etc. on this team, there's been way too many times where i have seen dirk on the outside just waiting to catch and shoot with the offense mostly running through antoine and steve nash. if this continues or gets worse, this is a huge problem IMO. i think a lot of posters here are overrating walker's passing abilities. i do see him making nice assists here and there, but he sometimes forces the pass and if he doesn't see an open man, he sometimes ends up forcing bad shots.

personally, i think we have yet to see the best of jamison and have yet to see the worst of walker. and a lot of this is due to confidence. i'm sure jamison's ego was hit when he learned he wouldn't start and worse when his playing time decreased considerably. i like jamison because he gives us the best inside post presence, better than nowitzki and walker . . . very important in the playoffs, when your offense is not clicking and you need high percentage inside shots . . . more importantly, he's the best offensive rebounder on that mavs team with maybe the exception of fortson . . . and i think a lot of that is because of body's natural tendency to gravitate towards the inside . . . and last of all, i think he recognizes dirk as the best player and he doesn't mind being a role player . . . of course, a lot of this is just assumption, but it's just what i'm seeing from body language . .

also, i don't think ainge was stupid for getting rid of walker. i think he was stupid for getting rid of walker for just lafrentz. but if he is being honest that no other GM really wanted to give up anything of value for walker, then i don't think ainge did that bad of a job . . .

dirno2000
11-06-2003, 10:50 AM
Why would we even consider trading Walker at this point? He's done everything that's been asked of him. Like most people here, my main concern when we traded for him was his shot selection. The fact that he's shooting 50% would indicate that he's taking good shots. When we made our final run last night, he missed a three. The ball ended up in his hands again, but instead of jacking up another three pointer he want to the hole for the easy bucket. As long as he continues to make decisions like that, he's an asset.

Dirk hasn't had a problem getting his shots this year. Like Monday, when he's hot the ball ends up in his hands. Last night he was clearly not into the game. When Dirk isn't rebounding something is wrong.

Charlie Brown
11-06-2003, 10:53 AM
anyways, despite my defense of jamison and criticsm of walker, i'm not positive that jamison is better for this team than walker, but i am fairly certain that the jamison-walker-nowitzki front line cannot coexist unless one of them sits on the bench in crunch time . . . with this front line, i'm surprised other teams even take jump shots against us . . . but i guess this is a good problem to have, since we at least have chips to work with if we need to make more moves . . .

Murphy3
11-06-2003, 10:53 AM
Dirk hasn't had a problem getting his shots this year. Like Monday, when he's hot the ball ends up in his hands. Last night he was clearly not into the game.

I must disagree a bit there. Dirk simply must get more looks than he did through the first 47 minutes and 30 seconds of the game. Three simply doesn't cut it. Four doesn't cut it by half time.

madape
11-06-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by: kingrex
I almost didn't post as Murph and Madape have pretty much stolen all my thunder, but I have to question the way Madape described Jamison. Do you mean he is a more selfish player than Walker or do you mean he has less ability to pass out of the post?

As for the validity of this thread, I feel it is too early to call for any trades of anyone, and more so to call for a Walker trade.

As for Ainge, he traded Walker because he wanted his voice to dominate that team and Walker held too much sway on that team to keep him there.


No, he's definely not a selfish player. My point was that compared to Walker, he's not a great passer or floor leader. From what I've seen, he rarely makes plays for other people. He's not the kind of player that involves other people in the offense. He needs people to involve HIM in the offense.

That's not a bad thing, it's just who he is. I do like the way he's been hitting the boards. It shows that he wants to help the team out in any way he can. Sometimes we'll really need his low post scoring. We'll always need his rebounding. He's got a great attitude.

Nicky31
11-06-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by: seelenjaeger
Fine, Nicky, following your logic "he was trying to score while so-and-so was wide open LAST NIGHT" you have to ...

- trade Nowitzki for not hitting the glass, nor his shots.
- trade Finley for not hitting his shots, nor playing D with effort.
- trade Jamison for forcing up shots frequently recently.
- trade Nash for his injury prowness and his sometimes out-of-control game.
- trade NVE for his jacking up of in-your-face-three.

Oh, wait, we did the latter. No. Not true. He was traded for his lack of D, and size. Not for his offense.

Actually A.W. (and AJ) was carrying our abysmal offense last night, while Dirk and Fin were as cold as the Ice at the Southpole.

What Iīve seen so far from A.W. makes me think he will fit in pretty fine with the Mavs, and that heīs more than willing to leave the spotlight to those who can carry the team further than he himself. I just havenīt seen much from those already.



I agree with the fact that there are flaws with probably every player in the league right now, but it's hard to envision how this team will ever have better chemistry than they did last season with the makeup of this team. I know it's early so I will leave it alone, but I have a bad feeling about A. Walker being a team player deep into the season.

kingrex
11-06-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by: Murphy3

Dirk hasn't had a problem getting his shots this year. Like Monday, when he's hot the ball ends up in his hands. Last night he was clearly not into the game.

I must disagree a bit there. Dirk simply must get more looks than he did through the first 47 minutes and 30 seconds of the game. Three simply doesn't cut it. Four doesn't cut it by half time.

Murph, I agree with you in principle, Dirk does need more attempts than four by halftime, but in a team with multiple scoring options would it behoove the team to try those other options especially if one of the Big 5 is cold, or is it better to force feed Dirk until he shoots himself out of being cold? I can see the benefit of both sides.

PiusDoe
11-06-2003, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by: Charlie Brown
it's too early to say, but from what i've seen early on, i can see why antoine walker was a problem in boston and why ainge wanted him out. he definitely does have a very dominant personality, seeks to be the leader, and likes the ball in his hands.

I really don't see the big problem with Walker being the leader on this team. He is obviously the only Maverick with the personality to do so. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to be the person taking the most shots. It simply means he's the one that will do the talking, light fires under his teammates' asses, and talk smack to the opposing players. As long as his leadership isn't along the lines of, "Ok guys. Now you all give me the ball so I can take 20 three pointers a game.", I think its great that he has a dominant attitude. No one else seems to have one on this team. It would be ideal if Nowitzki ever had a chance of developing some sort of Terminator persona, but that's a real real long shot. As long as Nowitzki keeps playing his game and Walker his (bringing the attitude along with), we'd be fine.

Being a Philly area sports fan, I see similarities in this argument to that of Scott Rolen when he was with the Phillies. The entire organization, especially the coach, wanted Rolen to be the man, the voice in the locker room, the dominant vocal leader. However, that wasn't his personality or strength and so both he and the Phillies suffered until he was traded and was able to simply play the role that his attitude suited. I am in no way suggesting trading Nowitzki, I'm just stating that the team would have a better overall chemistry if Walker's dominant personality led vocally and the passive Nowitzki just played his game, leading by example with his play. Like jamming a square peg into a round hole...

Charlie Brown
11-06-2003, 11:08 AM
anyways, i don't even know why i'm posting in this thread . . . this topic really can't be discussed seriously until this team matures more during the season and we see exactly what walker and jamison bring to the table . . .

it'll be interesting to say the least, but i find myself rooting for jamison . . .

Charlie Brown
11-06-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by: PiusDoe


I really don't see the big problem with Walker being the leader on this team. He is obviously the only Maverick with the personality to do so. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to be the person taking the most shots. It simply means he's the one that will do the talking, light fires under his teammates' asses, and talk smack to the opposing players. As long as his leadership isn't along the lines of, "Ok guys. Now you all give me the ball so I can take 20 three pointers a game.", I think its great that he has a dominant attitude. No one else seems to have one on this team. It would be ideal if Nowitzki ever had a chance of developing some sort of Terminator persona, but that's a real real long shot. As long as Nowitzki keeps playing his game and Walker his (bringing the attitude along with), we'd be fine.

Being a Philly area sports fan, I see similarities in this argument to that of Scott Rolen when he was with the Phillies. The entire organization, especially the coach, wanted Rolen to be the man, the voice in the locker room, the dominant vocal leader. However, that wasn't his personality or strength and so both he and the Phillies suffered until he was traded and was able to simply play the role that his attitude suited. I am in no way suggesting trading Nowitzki, I'm just stating that the team would have a better overall chemistry if Walker's dominant personality led vocally and the passive Nowitzki just played his game, leading by example with his play. Like jamming a square peg into a round hole...

well, if Walker knows how to be a leader without being the go-to guy, then i guess it'd be okay, but i guess it remains to be seen . . .

but i still have pipe dreams of Dirk Nowitzki becoming the vocal leader on this team . . . i always thought that he wasn't vocal b/c he was still learning English early in his career . . . but it seems fine now, but his personality hasn't changed all too much

kg_veteran
11-06-2003, 11:15 AM
Honestly, I don't get this thread at all.

It's WAY too early to call for the trading of any of the new players. We need to give them some time to see how they will mesh together. To say that they absolutely won't fit together after five games is just an assumption you can't possibly make.

If you look objectively at how the team has played so far, it seems to me that Walker is everything the Mavericks had hoped he would be. He's taking good shots, shooting an excellent percentage, showing the ability to score in the paint and in the post, taking timely three point shots, driving to the basket, passing the ball well, and playing decent defense. Oh yeah, he's also rebounding the ball quite well.

The key acquisition who has looked to be a bit of a questionable fit is Jamison. He is the type of scorer who needs people to clear out and get out of his way when he operates on the block, and he doesn't have the same passing ability or instincts that Walker has with the ball in the post. His offensive skills tend to leave others standing and watching rather than being involved as cutters or options out of the double team. His rebounding has been fine, but I'm not clear on who he can guard, if anyone. Of course, I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that he CAN'T fit in. I think it's possible. But if you were going to overreact and suggest a trade, perhaps Jamison would be the place to start. Or Finley.

Big Lo
11-06-2003, 11:15 AM
sometimes these knee jerkers here make me a lil sick, but who cares. AW has been the most solid mav this season, and hes playin solid basketball now, and putting up consistent numbers. hes disributing the ball, hitting shots, taking it to the hole, rebounding ; you name it. and most importantly, hes showed up every night. you can blame the big 3 for their inconsistent play as of yet. AW has found dirk on a numberof occasions last night but dirk simply could not hit. funny how the players that havent been up to par have been the big 3. and there may be reasons for that, but to sit here and say hes detracting from the team is idiocracy. hell something are better learned than taught ya know.

knowing how to go get the ball when u want it for one. and theres no complaining about it and there shoudlnt be. when u play out in the rec leagues, say red bird, oak cliff area; you have to go get the ball. demand it, and demand that respect. and dirk he doesnt seem selfish enough to do that. and dirk is all but assertive when he nessesarily needs to be. especially with the floor general out. it was AW and jamison that kept them hangin tight whilst washing forward and guards lined up the floor with a foundation made out of the bricks fin and dirk layd up. u call it dominant, i call it wanting to win. and when u havent been winning long enough, you have that edge. and when u have the opportunity , you take advantage of it. for all the lack of respect that mavs recieve, youd think that lite a fire under his german arse, but go figure. youd think he have a notion to take control. and yet we criticize a newcommer for bringing something to the table that weve been panning about for months. problem with you is that its comming from the wrong person.problem last night, is that theres a lot of things that dirk can or cant to with the ball, and when hes not the focus, he sort of shades out. it happens all the time. hes highly dependant on someone to to feed him opportunities. well i for one think its time for him to move beyond that, and play some real ball.
and as i have seen teh games, walker doesnt jack up shots; not so long as hes been here. and if you think he has, you should watch NVE.

and wanting him gone so badly? o plz. hello! paul peirce!! for that matter, the entire celtic team! hello! plz you make a thread do dog a guy that produces when no one else is. what you should have seen out there last night was pride from the core, and i dont think we saw that.

Charlie Brown
11-06-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by: Charlie Brown

but i still have pipe dreams of Dirk Nowitzki becoming the vocal leader on this team . . . i always thought that he wasn't vocal b/c he was still learning English early in his career . . . but it seems fine now, but his personality hasn't changed all too much

although I see Nowitzki like a Duncan, who is also a passive personality himself but had to make himself into the vocal leader as the Spurs made him the central figure to their offensive and defensive game plan . . . with the Mavs, it just appears that they're not really cultivating this by bringing in guys like Walker who take away more possessions from Nowitzki . . . even when Nowitzki talks, he talks as if he's a role player and not the man on the team

anyways, hard to complain since walker's playing well. hopefully, it all works out. but just can't say that i don't have doubts . . . that's all

Charlie Brown
11-06-2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by: Big Lo
sometimes these knee jerkers here make me a lil sick, but who cares. . . .

as i have seen teh games, walker doesnt jack up shots; not so long as hes been here. and if you think he has, you should watch NVE.

and wanting him gone so badly? o plz. hello! paul peirce!! for that matter, the entire celtic team! hello! plz you make a thread do dog a guy that produces when no one else is. what you should have seen out there last night was pride from the core, and i dont think we saw that.

well, it could also be considered knee-jerking to simply praise Walker and say he's good for the team after just a couple of games . . . if you're going to compare him to NVE, NVE didn't jack up shots when he first came to the Mavs either. it was only gradually, with Nelson's insistence particularly, that he started jacking up shots . . .

anyways, the jury is out on both Walker and jamison . . . and i think it will continue to be out until the end of the season after we see how they perform in the playoffs . . . i'll reserve my full judgement until then

Big Lo
11-06-2003, 11:41 AM
nve jacked up shots b4 nelson had talked to him; its just that after then, he jacked them up with greater frequency. is it also knee jerking to praiise a dog after he carries in the paper? or jus berate him, and say hell lets see what he does tommrw. at what point do you feel its acceptable for him to be worthy of accolade. or is it thast youd rather save your self the irritation if it doesnt pan out.

XERXES
11-06-2003, 11:55 AM
I know that is early in the season, but I don't know how many shots A. Walker took away from D. Nowitzki last night. A. Walker is trying to take Dirk's role on this team, and it's making me sick. In my opinion he has thrown our starting 5 spots out of wack. Him being the starting PF for this team makes me sick because your saying he is a more dependable PF than Nowitzki, and that's insane...


I nominate Nicky31 for the coveted "2003 Knee-Jerker of the Year" Award...


...can I get a second?...

Charlie Brown
11-06-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by: Big Lo
nve jacked up shots b4 nelson had talked to him; its just that after then, he jacked them up with greater frequency. is it also knee jerking to praiise a dog after he carries in the paper? or jus berate him, and say hell lets see what he does tommrw. at what point do you feel its acceptable for him to be worthy of accolade. or is it thast youd rather save your self the irritation if it doesnt pan out.


dude, you're free to praise whoever whenever however you want. it's just that there's some posters on this board that like to use the term "knee-jerking" way too liberally to anyone who has a negative response to what they feel as too short of a time frame for analysis . . . all i'm saying is that if knee-jerking is a just a quick analysis based on short time frame, then you're knee-jerking as well. i mean, how the hell do we know if walker can continue what he's been doing when he's only played 5 games . . . anyways, i have no problem with your praise of walker. he deserves it. but i don't think bashing those who have the contrary opinion is necessary as well, unless they're criticizing walker just for the hell of it . . .

and nve was far more of a team player before nelson intervened . . . walker's already taking a lot of shots (not a criticism per se) . . . i'm just wondering what a bit more pride, a little bit of nelson intervention (saying he's not shooting enough), and bit more comfort with the team will do to his shot production and selection later on . . . my guess is that could increase so that it's a detriment to the team, but we'll see . . . like i said, this could all work out well, but i still need to see way more games to make full judgment on this . . .

although i will admit that saying that we should TRADE walker already is a bit extreme . . . i can't tell if you're criticism is based on that or based on the fact that walker shouldn't even be criticzed at this point .

Big Lo
11-06-2003, 12:12 PM
of course thats true, and i do agree that time will tell to see if it is ultimately worth the shot, but most of that comment i said was prescribed to the owner of this thead. grant it is hard to no like what weve seen so far out of him, and even nve, turned out to be as advertised since he first came here, and a lot more. i dont think its a whole heck of a lot to think of AW in that same light. im attacking the regime that feels that any potentially positive addition into the mix, such as in this instance is horrible the fact that it detracts from the old boys as they were. assuming the product of what we created this offseason would be junkfruit. those are the same ones against stiring the pot a lil bit but want something done. the same people that feel that tried and true is better than new and innovative. i am of the school that believes that in time, this team will be a lot better than we all expected.

lol im not bashing you, did it seem like it? ill raise my hand for a foul on that.

FineCubanCigar
11-06-2003, 12:42 PM
the fact is Finley, and Nash and recently Dirk have not produced . . . look at thei fg% and you will see it is not mere shot attempts that are the problem. . . w/o Walker i don't think we would have won 1 game. If the "big 3' keep this up, i believe Finley and or Nash will be traded before the bottom falls out of their value. I like Murph, will delay judgement until the break.

Charlie Brown
11-06-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by: Big Lo
of course thats true, and i do agree that time will tell to see if it is ultimately worth the shot, but most of that comment i said was prescribed to the owner of this thead. grant it is hard to no like what weve seen so far out of him, and even nve, turned out to be as advertised since he first came here, and a lot more. i dont think its a whole heck of a lot to think of AW in that same light. im attacking the regime that feels that any potentially positive addition into the mix, such as in this instance is horrible the fact that it detracts from the old boys as they were. assuming the product of what we created this offseason would be junkfruit. those are the same ones against stiring the pot a lil bit but want something done. the same people that feel that tried and true is better than new and innovative. i am of the school that believes that in time, this team will be a lot better than we all expected.

lol im not bashing you, did it seem like it? ill raise my hand for a foul on that.

it's all good . . . i just didn't want to be called a knee-jerker (or at least negative concept of knee-jerker that appears to be prevalent here) for what was simply my impression based on a couple games . . . i got flamed a lot when i first came here for just basic impressions here and there and that kinda annoyed me . . . but your points are well-taken

for me, i do believe some posters, but especially the media like to characterize players as being either good or bad, i.e. they either like to just focus on pros or just focus on the cons . . . an extreme example is when the media portrayed NVE as the savior of the mavs after his great in the playoffs last year . . . they hyped up his shooting ability, his guts, and his fire, but hardly ever mentioning that he was extremely streaky during the regular season, inconsistent in both the blazers series and the spurs, and that his size and shaky defense at shooting guard was an albatross to this team . . .

it's important to remember that nearly every player has his pros and cons and you have to weigh both to measure his value to the team . . . it's nice that a lot of posters are focusing on antoine's good box scores in his limited time with the mavs so far . . . but has the TEAM played well and won games as a result of it? . . . not necessarily . . . now, i'm not saying antoine is the reason why we haven't played well, but i also think it's difficult to make the connection that antoine's individual play has resulted in great team performance and wins . . .

both AW and AJ have their pros and cons and every bit of it deserves to be scrutinized over this whole season . . . but when I look at Antoine, I see that he's a good passer, but I say to myself, would his passing have made a huge difference last year in the playoffs . . . marginally, maybe, but not a huge difference . . . we succeeded last year with steve passing the ball and having the offense run through dirk as well . . . we had no problems scoring last year . . . the only problem we had scoring was when our outside shooting was off and we had no one to throw the ball down to inside for easy baskets . . . it just seems AJ gives us that much more than AW and AJ can get to the free throw line better . . . with AW, his outside shooting can easily be transferred to Dirk or Nash for more highly efficient shots . . . also, the most glaring weakness last year was offensive rebounds, which once again gives the nod to AJ versus AW . . . although individually, AW has put up better stats than AJ so far, in the long run, I feel that AJ fills a more glaring need than AW . . . but we'll see . . . let's not just focus on AW's stats and his individual play . . . let's see if it actually translates into us becoming a better team . . . the jury's out

Charlie Brown
11-06-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by: FineCubanCigar
the fact is Finley, and Nash and recently Dirk have not produced . . . look at thei fg% and you will see it is not mere shot attempts that are the problem. . . w/o Walker i don't think we would have won 1 game. If the "big 3' keep this up, i believe Finley and or Nash will be traded before the bottom falls out of their value. I like Murph, will delay judgement until the break.

perhaps they're not producing due to the presence of the new guys . . . not saying that's the reason, but it's a possibility . . . definitely remains to be seen to see if the old guys and new guys can gel and play consistently well together and not just show us flashes of how good they could be . . .

Murphy3
11-06-2003, 12:50 PM
the fact is Finley, and Nash and recently Dirk have not produced . . . look at thei fg% and you will see it is not mere shot attempts that are the problem. .

Was it dirk's 11-18 shooting in the second game of the season that he didn't produce in?
Or his 6-8 shooting in game 3?
How about his 12-22 shooting in game four?

just curious

Psychedelic Fuzz
11-06-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by: XERXES

I know that is early in the season, but I don't know how many shots A. Walker took away from D. Nowitzki last night. A. Walker is trying to take Dirk's role on this team, and it's making me sick. In my opinion he has thrown our starting 5 spots out of wack. Him being the starting PF for this team makes me sick because your saying he is a more dependable PF than Nowitzki, and that's insane...


I nominate Nicky31 for the coveted "2003 Knee-Jerker of the Year" Award...


...can I get a second?...

second!!
Lets see, where to begin...
I don't think he's a better pf than Dirk, and this lineup with dirk at the 5 is a bit much, but walker has been solid on the court. You have to get used to a couple of things with this team...

a. that sometimes a player has an off night. regardless of why, someone has to step up when it happens.
b. this is a team with five big time scorers, that means evey one of them has to give up a little to acommodate the others.
c. time, time, time !!! it is waaay to early to talk about trading anyone. give these guys a couple of road trips, a couple of big games, and then start talking about who needs to go.

FineCubanCigar
11-06-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by: Murphy3

the fact is Finley, and Nash and recently Dirk have not produced . . . look at thei fg% and you will see it is not mere shot attempts that are the problem. .

Was it dirk's 11-18 shooting in the second game of the season that he didn't produce in?
Or his 6-8 shooting in game 3?
How about his 12-22 shooting in game four?

just curious


Dirk would be theexception Murph, but they way he was shooting last night, i wish he would have passed to Jamison everytime he touched the ball! Finley too for that matter.

thebac
11-06-2003, 01:09 PM
Obviously trading AW is a ridiculous idea at this point, given that he's been the Mavs' best player so far. He's done everything asked of him--shoot a high percentage, cut down his 3pt attempts, pass, cut down on turnovers, I must say I'm impressed.

However, why doesn't he get to the line more? He's taken 4 free throw attempts in 5 games this season. The 4 attempts in 5 games is below his career average PER GAME. I know he's taken more of an initiator role (as opposed to a finisher) on this team, but shouldn't he take it to the rack more (and post up more)?

I'm not ragging on him (he's played above and beyond what I had HOPED for), just curious what others think.

Nicky31
11-06-2003, 01:19 PM
The point of this thread wasn't to knock A. Walker's skills as a player, but what serves best for the Mav's as a team....


It was to point out that this team went to the WCF last season with the big 3 leading the way (so we know that this formula at an all start level PG+SG+PF can take you far in this league). I was under the impression that what this team was lacking was a one-n-one defender down in the post to guard the likes of Shaq or Duncan. I agree that either Jamison or Walker can be the fourth option on scoring like Van Exel. To this point I like Jamison because he is accepting his role, and wants to be what Van Exel was to this team last season, and Walker wants to be more like Shaq is to the Laker's (this is Walker's team attitude)...


Walker definitely is playing at a better level than he did at Boston, but will he be that defender that will shut Shaq and Duncan down come playoff time, and that's in reality what this team is needing. I feel that Dallas has the pieces to make a move to get an improvement from what they have in their interior to matchup better against those other teams, but if they stay pat and play like they did last night in the playoff's they will knocked out pretty quick.

If Walker is the answer than maybe the big 3 should come into question, and another rebuilding time will come into place.

With all this to the side; Nellie has alot of work again to do with this team.

kingrex
11-06-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by: thebac
shouldn't he take it to the rack more (and post up more)?


That is the question that should be asked of the entire offense. When a jumpshooting team is not making it's shots on the outside, then they need to start taking it to the rack. Do we have the guys to do that? Some will say no, I say we do.

FineCubanCigar
11-06-2003, 01:34 PM
"the big Three" have peaked (except Dirk obviously), Finley might even be regressing because his athleticism is the very thing that made Finley, Finley . . . and Nash is 29 and his career has already been injury riddled! Whats best for the Mavs is to sell high (which means moving players before they regress to far) . . . however it takes more than a measly 5 games to be able to have a valid opinion one way or another!

Murphy3
11-06-2003, 01:40 PM
"the big Three" have peaked (except Dirk obviously), Finley might even be regressing because his athleticism is the very thing that made Finley, Finley . . . and Nash is 29 and his career has already been injury riddled! Whats best for the Mavs is to sell high (which means moving players before they regress to far) . . . however it takes more than a measly 5 games to be able to have a valid opinion one way or another!

To be honest, I don't think the 'big 5' will ever gel the way that Nellie intended. I honestly think that it's foolish to have this many top notch scoring options on one team especially when all of them are average defenders at best. What will happen? The team will often look out of sync and the better options will sometimes struggle to get shots even when they're desperately needed. Plus, the team will just continue to struggle defensively until Nellie decides that it's 'ok' to play players such as Bradley.

I didn't think this team would gel like Nellie intended before the season, and I don't think so now. However, as far as trades go, I do believe it's a little early to decide who fits and who doesn't. But, if someone knocks you off your feet with a great offer, it's not too early to pull the trigger.

FineCubanCigar
11-06-2003, 01:48 PM
i agree with most of that as much as i hate to admit it

Max Power
11-06-2003, 03:26 PM
Good post murph.

The thing that will be the hardest for the team to work out IMO is when a player is cold early. Normally with 2 or 3 scorers they have a chance to shoot themselves out of it. But with FIVE options the cold player is not as likely to get the shots they need to get out of the slump. Take Dirk last night. If he had another 10 shots who can say he wouldn't have hit 7 of them? But because he struggled early other people took his shots.

Murphy3
11-06-2003, 03:39 PM
The thing that will be the hardest for the team to work out IMO is when a player is cold early. Normally with 2 or 3 scorers they have a chance to shoot themselves out of it. But with FIVE options the cold player is not as likely to get the shots they need to get out of the slump. Take Dirk last night. If he had another 10 shots who can say he wouldn't have hit 7 of them? But because he struggled early other people took his shots.

I think you're correct with your statement. But, I believe there's an issue equally as important to possibly watch out for. With 5 options, the hot player could end up not getting enough looks. How often did it occur last year with 4 options to where Dirk or Fin would be on fire but couldn't get the ball? That issue will only be magnified adding a 5th top scoring option.

kingrex
11-06-2003, 04:30 PM
I believe with more playing time together, each guy will get to know how each player wants to score. Case in point, Stockton knew exactly how Malone wants to be fed down low or on the wing to make his shot. Walker is already starting to figure out how to feed Nowitzki. As the season goes on, I have no doubt that this team will start to gel (I know the hated word) offensively.

I am more concerned about their defense. Will they ever figure out how to defend in the zone? Can the 'Big 5' stop anyone? There is where my doubts lie.

Nicky31
11-06-2003, 04:38 PM
Good post Murph,

That was the message I was trying to convey with this thread, but I guess I didn't use the right words when creating it.

Another problem that might occur is more pressure to make your shots because if you get cold early then you probably will get overlooked later on in the game especially if other players have it going. When before the player with the best look takes the shot. To throw one more problem into the mix this team was built around the big 3 plus a 4th scoring option, and role players who didn't care about how many minutes they played or if they started or came off the bench. How many players can you count that fit that description vs. last season.



I miss Reja Bell or Adrian Griffin coming off the bench...i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

FineCubanCigar
11-06-2003, 05:02 PM
Well, SOMEBODY or a couple of somebodies will be shipped off by the deadline to aqcuire some of the best roleplayers around, and a big man. Thats why the walker, and jamison trades were great even though it might not be immediately obvious in the win column

FilthyFinMavs
11-06-2003, 06:19 PM
My main problem is when Walker does pass the ball to anyone in the paint they never finish. I don't know if it is becuase they are too soft or what but they don't go aggressive with the ball at all.

FilthyFinMavs
11-06-2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by: Nicky31
I know that is early in the season, but I don't know how many shots A. Walker took away from D. Nowitzki last night. A. Walker is trying to take Dirk's role on this team, and it's making me sick. In my opinion he has thrown our starting 5 spots out of wack. Him being the starting PF for this team makes me sick because your saying he is a more dependable PF than Nowitzki, and that's insane... i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif


I love what Nellie has done with this team, but he has gone away from the core of this team the BIG 3...

Any possible trade senarios for Walker to get a defensive player inside the paint because that should be a bigger concern for this team in my opinion?



I nominate this post for "The Dumbest Thread in D-M.com History". Walker is playing great ball. Him and Jamison are some of the only positives i've seen so far this season. You have Finley not shooting well at all. You have Dirk not rebounding the ball. You just lost Nash to an injury. Things just keep getting worse but the reason i'm not posting stupid trade propasals is that I think this will all change when the Mavs get a chance to jel. Mavs fans thought that when Nellie said this team needs time to jel he was just kidding himself. It is true and you can see the results in the Mavs game thus far.

Murphy3
11-06-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
My main problem is when Walker does pass the ball to anyone in the paint they never finish. I don't know if it is becuase they are too soft or what but they don't go aggressive with the ball at all.

?
What type of 2pt percentages do Dirk and Jamison need?