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LRB
12-02-2003, 05:21 AM
All-Star out of lineup vs. Clippers (https://http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1675580)

Associated Press
LOS ANGELES -- Tim Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs was suspended for one game by the NBA on Monday for pushing an official to the floor.



The two-time league MVP and five-time all-star made contact with Jack Nies in the third quarter of the Spurs' loss Saturday night to the Golden State Warriors.



Duncan was setting a pick near the Spurs' 3-point line as Nies was trying to untangle himself from another player. Duncan cut to the high post, put both hands on the official to clear some room, and Nies tumbled to the floor. The official quickly got up and called a technical.



"Circumstances and facts have to be considered in each case, and I think that clearly, here, it's obvious that the contact was both inadvertent and accidental," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said before San Antonio's game against the Los Angeles Clippers. "To be suspended, the rule states that it's got to be intentional contact. So whether you want to speak intellectually, philosophically, factually, there's absolutely no support for such a decision. It's just a bad decision. It's absurd."



Popovich said his star player was surprised by the league's decision.



"Tim was shocked," Popovich said. "I mean, he almost let out a laugh, like `Are you kidding me?' It was just like a funny incident to the fans, and nothing was written about it. He was flabbergasted."



Duncan, also the series MVP when the Spurs won the NBA title last spring, was out of the lineup against the Clippers, who beat the Spurs 91-83 Monday night.

Usually Lurkin
12-02-2003, 08:34 AM
thug

Simon2
12-02-2003, 09:31 AM
I wish I could see the replay. That must have been so funny to watch. Why was the ref so close to the action? I am surprised that the league is suspending Duncan.

LRB
12-02-2003, 09:36 AM
Almost makes up for the time Eddie got suspended when the Ref jumped up into his face and caused him to be hit by Eddie swinging his arm in frustration.

MavsFanatik33
12-02-2003, 09:48 AM
A stupid suspension, the ref needs to get out of the way. He was at the free throw line like an idiot, how can Duncan go set a pick for his main man Parker.

Usually Lurkin
12-02-2003, 10:12 AM
The ref should be suspended for interfering with the play.

Rhylan
12-02-2003, 10:27 AM
The refs are out of hand, man. When will someone tell them that fans don't pay to see them throw T's in people's faces?

MavsFanFinley
12-02-2003, 10:46 AM
I couldn't believe he was suspended either. What a joke.

I watched the game and they showed several replays. The ref was clearly in the way of play and Duncan pushed him aside to get to the player outside. The ref was just embarrassed that he tripped and everyone was laughing. Including Duncan.

MavKikiNYC
12-02-2003, 10:51 AM
This 'decision' probably involves some degree of concern about the league appearing to favor league MVP Duncan when coaches like Sloan have been suspended for 'less' contact.

Haven't seen the play, but based on the description, and based on what has been observed from Duncan, it's hard to imagine that a suspension is justified. Did Nies even eject Duncan from the game?

Also, why no appeal of the decision on the part of the Spurs, or from the NBA Player's association? If the NBAPA is going to make so much noise over Colangelo's calling Fortson a thug, why not defend their membership against unwarranted and ridiculous actions on the part of the league?

MavsFanFinley
12-02-2003, 11:04 AM
Did Nies even eject Duncan from the game?

No, he wasn't ejected MavKikiNYC. He was only given a technical.

LRB
12-02-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
This 'decision' probably involves some degree of concern about the league appearing to favor league MVP Duncan when coaches like Sloan have been suspended for 'less' contact.

Haven't seen the play, but based on the description, and based on what has been observed from Duncan, it's hard to imagine that a suspension is justified. Did Nies even eject Duncan from the game?

Also, why no appeal of the decision on the part of the Spurs, or from the NBA Player's association? If the NBAPA is going to make so much noise over Colangelo's calling Fortson a thug, why not defend their membership against unwarranted and ridiculous actions on the part of the league?


Obviously because Duncan is a pure thug who is out of control and needs to be put in his place. i/expressions/moon.gif i/expressions/rolleye.gif

sike
12-02-2003, 11:38 AM
fine with me. every game he's out is a game they lose...is a game more of a cushion for the Mavs to have as a lead before they(the Spurs) get hot and start up the chase!

edited to clairify

cdeleon
12-02-2003, 01:36 PM
The ref should have been suspended for being in the damn way. Has anyone heard an excuse as to what he was doing at the freethrow line during live action? What a stupid suspension.

EricaLubarsky
12-02-2003, 01:55 PM
and I wondered why most of my friends are only into college ball.
Things are out of control in the NBA

MavKikiNYC
12-02-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by: cdeleon
The ref should have been suspended for being in the damn way. Has anyone heard an excuse as to what he was doing at the freethrow line during live action? What a stupid suspension.

Suppose Nies runs into a player out there, causes the player to fall, and an injury results--what then? Is the player suspended for not avoiding the referee?

Nies has a lot of years of experience as an NBA official (for better or wosre), but if he can't manage to stay out of the fray while the ball's in play, why penalize a player for inadvertent contact?

LRB
12-02-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
and I wondered why most of my friends are only into college ball.
Things are out of control in the NBA

Correction it's not things, it's NBA refs that are out of control.


And Kiki I agree with you, the ref should keep his ass out of the players way during play. And if he doesn't, the ref not the player should risk getting punished. Look at NFL refs. They get killed by huge guys wearing for all intents and purposes armor. Do you see NFL stars getting suspended for this? No. Also no need to suspend the NFL ref, he's already gotten his ass kicked that should be enough of a wake up call.

Chiwas
12-02-2003, 02:38 PM
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p8790563eb5314cabcadfe2ab0f206b1e/fa66f4b0.jpg

mary
12-02-2003, 02:39 PM
If you'd like to see the play in question and have broadband, here's a link (http://pete.sarkasmos.com/)

mary
12-02-2003, 02:50 PM
"To be suspended, the rule states that it's got to be intentional contact. So whether you want to speak intellectually, philosophically, factually, there's absolutely no support for such a decision. It's just a bad decision. It's absurd."

I don't think Duncan meant for the Ref to go flying to the floor, but the actual contact itself looks completely intentional IMO.

MavKikiNYC
12-02-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by: mary
If you'd like to see the play in question and have broadband, here's a link (http://pete.sarkasmos.com/)

Avoid this site and the 'free' ad-supported software if you're sensitive to the issue of spyware.

dirno2000
12-02-2003, 03:31 PM

mary
12-02-2003, 04:00 PM

u2sarajevo
12-02-2003, 04:19 PM
During installation, when it gives you the options to install, uncheck the player, leave the codec checked. The codec is all you need to be able to view the stream.

mary
12-02-2003, 04:25 PM
Thanks U2, I knew for some reason I didn't have to download the player to look at the clips, but I couldn't remember why. Its been a couple of months since I first came across this site.

u2sarajevo
12-02-2003, 04:27 PM
No problem mary... off topic I know, but did you look at that dish from Nick to Damp? I miss him sometimes.

MavKikiNYC
12-02-2003, 04:34 PM
Clip is sorta truncated, but it looks like Nies was clearly out of position.

NO FREAKING WAY should Duncan have been T-ed or suspended for THAT.

mary
12-02-2003, 04:38 PM
Not sure I'm missing Nick but that was definitely a sweet play i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

I certainly wish I could have seen the entire game.

LakerMania
12-02-2003, 04:40 PM
http://cctvimedia.clearchannel.com/woai/duncan-ref-animation.gif

Doesn't exactly look completely innocent.

MavKikiNYC
12-02-2003, 04:44 PM
But what was Nies doing down there?

A forearm to the head would've looked suspicious.

But that shove out of the way?

LRB
12-02-2003, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by: LakerMania
http://cctvimedia.clearchannel.com/woai/duncan-ref-animation.gif

Doesn't exactly look completely innocent.


Yeah, I'd definitely say the ref should be investigated.

Jeeze the stoopid SOB changed directions at the last minute and ran right into Duncan's path. Tim was just trying not to make a road kill special of him. And WTF was he doing in the middle of the court during live play?

Sorry that idiot ref is the one who should be suspended and probably fired.

seelenjaeger
12-03-2003, 11:22 AM
Well, actually if the contact would have occured during traffic, or somehow else, Iīd go with the Duncan is innocent stuff.

If the ref - for whatever reason - is just interfering with a play, or covering the space Duncan plans to move to and Duncan pushes him out of the way, he deserves the technical.

The ref - as far as I know - is out there to check the plays. He has an area where he -should- stay, but thatīs not a "must" stuff. Damn, he is definately out of place there, but you can aswell tell him in a TimeOut. If you touch him, or shove him, intentionally - and Duncan did - you cannot be surprised if you get punished.

This was intentional contact. At least the technical is obvious. Whether this is worth a suspension might be debated, but actually I can follow the argument.

Hey, Picture the ref shoving a player out of his sight in order to see any action ... that would be pretty inacceptable aswell, wouldnīt it?

Thereīs a difference between making a mistake and intentional contact. The Ref was out of position. Fine. Shouldnīt happen. But does it justify Duncans action? Of course not.

bernardos70
12-03-2003, 11:52 AM
I don't think duncan was really trying to push him down, more like he knew the ref was moving so he kinda let him know that he was on the way by touching him, it looks like he wasn't trying to move the ref with the push is what I mean, more like a heads up push with no intent to move the ref

kingrex
12-03-2003, 12:09 PM
I saw this replay from 2 angles. The first was facing the basketball goal and the second is the one here.

My first impression was that it was all incidental, and that Nies over-reacted.

Now, watching the play from this second angle, it was clear that Duncan could have avoided pushing Nies. Duncan's push didn't come in a tight play with multiple bodies around him and Nies just happened to be in the way, it happened at the top of the key with only Duncan and Nies. As fleet of foot as I've seen Duncan play, I don't believe that his shove of Nies was unavoidable.

Therefore, Nies was justified in his call even if he was not supposed to be there. The fact is Duncan chose not to avoid his contact with Nies and his shove should be punished. If any player shoves an official, it should be punishable.

LRB
12-03-2003, 12:11 PM
Did Duncan "push" or "shove" the ref intentionally? Yes. But it was to keep from doing worse to him. The ref basically cut in front of Duncan and it was this or run the ref's ass over. I guarrantee you the ref would have gotten worse if Duncan had run his ass over. Which is what he should do next time. Forget trying to be nice to the ref. And if Duncan can "accidently" hurt the sucker, then he should do that as well.

The ref clearly starts to move to Duncan's right. Then stops. And moves back towards Duncan's left. By this time Duncan is moving at near full speed to come up and set the pick. He can't avoid the ref and has to choose to 1) try and move the ref out of the way to protect the ref or 2) run his scrawny little ass over. If the ref is going to park it in the middle of the court during play and basically fake backdoor cuts, then he shouldn't be protected from contact. This was inexcusable for the league to suspend Duncan who was only trying to protect the ref.

LRB
12-03-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by: kingrex
I saw this replay from 2 angles. The first was facing the basketball goal and the second is the one here.

My first impression was that it was all incidental, and that Nies over-reacted.

Now, watching the play from this second angle, it was clear that Duncan could have avoided pushing Nies. Duncan's push didn't come in a tight play with multiple bodies around him and Nies just happened to be in the way, it happened at the top of the key with only Duncan and Nies. As fleet of foot as I've seen Duncan play, I don't believe that his shove of Nies was unavoidable.

Therefore, Nies was justified in his call even if he was not supposed to be there. The fact is Duncan chose not to avoid his contact with Nies and his shove should be punished. If any player shoves an official, it should be punishable.

?????????? i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif

How could Duncan have avoided the ref???? Duncan's running at near full speed and this dumbass steps in front of him. Go back and watch it again. Look at Duncan's speed and his feet. He was clearly trying to go by the ref where the ref would have been on Duncan's right. The refs original motion was to Duncan's right which was the time Duncan started to make his move. Everything would have been fine except the Ref didn't continue with his initial motion. He stoped and changed motion and started heading back to Duncan's left, without looking I might add. By this time Duncan was in motion and committed to his path. Duncan couldn't stop because he was going too fast. He couldn't pass the ref where the ref would be on Duncan's left because Duncan is pushing off of his right foot leaning left when the ref makes the dumbass move. The only alternative Duncan has is to try and pass the ref where the ref is on Duncan's right. But Duncan's defender is in the way of Duncan making that sharp of a cut. So that leaves Duncan with the choice of placing his arms out and trying to push the ref out of the way of what looks like it will be a really bad collision or to run the stupid little SOB over and and have 260 lbs of Spur center fall on him as well as being knocked to the court.

Unfortunately the refs ego was too big to admit that this was totally his fault and the contact was only accidental on Duncan's part. Big problem with refs in the NBA is that they almost all have waaaaaaay to high an opinion of themselves and have a terrible time admitting when they are wrong. For some reason the league office always trys to cover up a refs mistake by trying to blame it on a player or coach. Duncan and the spurs got screwed here, big time. If it was up to me, I would have fired the ref for not admitting his stupid mistake.

Usually Lurkin
12-03-2003, 12:32 PM
Duncan should have flopped.

bernardos70
12-03-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin
Duncan should have flopped.

i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif Now that would have been absolutely hilarious.

LRB
12-03-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin
Duncan should have flopped.

LOL. Good one. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

superheadcat
12-03-2003, 01:09 PM
Nelson said. "Eddie Najera is still paying the price for when he bumped the referee, and that was as innocent as you can get. He didn't deserve [a suspension]"
Though the Mavs believe Najera's suspension was unwarranted, owner Mark Cuban applauded the NBA for applying the same standard to San Antonio's Tim Duncan, who received a one-game penalty for pushing an official Saturday.
--from fwst

LRB
12-03-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by: superheadcat
Nelson said. "Eddie Najera is still paying the price for when he bumped the referee, and that was as innocent as you can get. He didn't deserve [a suspension]"
Though the Mavs believe Najera's suspension was unwarranted, owner Mark Cuban applauded the NBA for applying the same standard to San Antonio's Tim Duncan, who received a one-game penalty for pushing an official Saturday.
--from fwst

I guess Cubes is saying that if you're going to screw my pooch, then you should screw everyone else's as well.

LakerMania
12-03-2003, 01:23 PM
And WTF was he doing in the middle of the court during live play?

What you are seeing is immedietly following a jump ball, that's why he was in the middle of the court. As soon as the ball went into play he was on the move, unfortunately he didn't make it very far. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif This is what I have heard, didn't anyone see the game?

LRB
12-03-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by: LakerMania

And WTF was he doing in the middle of the court during live play?

What you are seeing is immedietly following a jump ball, that's why he was in the middle of the court. As soon as the ball went into play he was on the move, unfortunately he didn't make it very far. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif This is what I have heard, didn't anyone see the game?

The jump ball makes some sense, but he was slower than molasses during a Siberian winter in getting off the court. Plus he out faked Duncan on which direction he was going to move once he did move. Refs' have got to take responsibility for the actions, and it was the refs fault more than anyone that this happened. Unfair to blame Duncan because the ref is a dumbass and can't tell his left from his right.

MavKikiNYC
12-03-2003, 02:37 PM
The jump ball scenario doesn't seem plausible given the relative positions of 1) the ball; and 2) Nies. The ball would have to have been tapped to midcourt, and Parker is already controlling the ball when the clip starts, and Nies is still wandering around like a chicken with his head cut off.

What happens when a ball in play hits a referee? The referee is regarded as part of the playing court. The player passing the ball isn't assessed a technical for hitting the ref with the ball, and if the ball goes out of bounds, the last team to've touched the ball loses possession.

Why doesn't that principle apply here? The ball is in play, the ref is part of the playing court. If he gets in the way and gets stepped on, play on. To my eye, Duncan did him a favor by trying to push him out of the way. I would be more inclined to see Duncan penalized if he had merely bowled the muthuh over. That he appeared to try to prevent Nies from being the recipient of even more forceful contact speaks more to his intent and his regard for the physical well-being of the churlish Nies.

Duncan was screwed twice.

LRB
12-03-2003, 02:49 PM
Duncan was screwed twice.

And not even kissed once. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

EricaLubarsky
12-03-2003, 03:20 PM
I think that Barkley was right when he said, "refs are part of the game", but refs are responsible for not interrupting the movement of players and the ball. period.
1) On review of multiple angles of the play, it is clear that Nies is officially "a clutz". Although there was contact, Nies fell from getting caught and not from undue contact. Duncan is a strong guy, and he held Nies so he wouldnt fall-- oops.
2) Nies should not have been where he is after that much time. He should have seen the path to the baseline and should have headed there trying to avoid interfering with players and/or getting between players.

seelenjaeger
12-03-2003, 06:39 PM
Just because "the Refs are regarded as part of the playing court" does not justify stepping on them ...

Whether or not Nies was supposed to be where he is is irrelevant once you make INTENTIONAL contact. You can aswell argue with the refs about where they are during a Time Out or launch a protest regarding the Refīs movement, but pushing or shoving them intentionally without Traffic is the wrong method and will get an appropriate response.

The Refs are allowed to make mistakes without getting shoved around. A player losing his assignement and standing in the Refs line of sight cannot be pushed by the refs, why should a Ref losing position be allowed to cleared off by the players?

LRB
12-03-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by: seelenjaeger
Just because "the Refs are regarded as part of the playing court" does not justify stepping on them ...

Whether or not Nies was supposed to be where he is is irrelevant once you make INTENTIONAL contact. You can aswell argue with the refs about where they are during a Time Out or launch a protest regarding the Refīs movement, but pushing or shoving them intentionally without Traffic is the wrong method and will get an appropriate response.

The Refs are allowed to make mistakes without getting shoved around. A player losing his assignement and standing in the Refs line of sight cannot be pushed by the refs, why should a Ref losing position be allowed to cleared off by the players?

But the contact wasn't intentional. Duncan's actions were to try and prevent or reduce harm to the ref. The ref made a mistake, and paid for it somewhat. Why should Duncan be punished for a mistake the ref made?

seelenjaeger
12-03-2003, 07:16 PM
Well, we can argue if the contact was intentional or not - I do think it was, and the replay I saw gave me enough insight to follow the arguments.

I probably wouldnīt have suspended him if Iīd been in charge, but I can see why they did it.

And I do think the Tech was justified. This is where the discussion may begin.

Look LRB, I sse your point, but itīs like the discussion of the "bench player stepping to the court" argument when thereīs a riot. It doesnt matter if the bench player is entering the court to stop the riot or to take part in - heīs just not thought to be there, and if he is, he gets a suspension.

You are not thought to touch the ref, and when you do it though you can avoid it, you get punished by a tech.

From the Refs point of view, Duncan could have avoided the intense contact. He didnīt, and got the Tech that lead to further observation of this situation. And Stu Jackson and his crew followed the arguments of the tech-calling ref and suspended Duncan. Thatīs okay as far as I am concerned.

Remember Garnett beeing ejected earlier when he went mad on a ridicolous no-call? The decision to eject him was right, though he was right about the no-call. Still, that doesnīt affect the punishment of his misbehaviour.

You just cannot allow players to make contact with the refs intentionally. So - when there is a chance that the contact was intentional, and it looks like it might - you get punished. Works for me.

LRB
12-03-2003, 07:34 PM
It's obvious that Duncan extends his hands and touches the ref on purpose, but he was trying to soften the blow IMO. If Duncan hadn't done this the ref would have been hit much harder. But I see nothing to give a tech over. It's like penalizing a player for not trying to hurt a ref. Football refs get hit all the time like this but bigger and stronger guys moving much faster and wearing body armor which compounds the hit. Penalties aren't called on the players, because it was accidental on their part. It is the refs job to stay out of the way of the players. If the player has a resonable rationale for going where the ref is on the field of play, it is up to the ref to recognize this situation and avoid being in that position. The game is about the players, not the refs. This only is common sense. Duncan didn't go after the ref. The ref got in Duncan's way in such a manner that Duncan could not avoid him. It is not Duncan's responsibility to note the position of the ref and not to make any moves that might accidentally cause contact as it is with the opposing teams players. Because the opposing team wants to draw a charge or foul, they will purposefully place themselves in position to do this and will purposefully not remove themselves. They actually have a right to do that. The ref doesn't. His instructions are to keep the hell out of the way. He has no rights to draw charges or fouls and should immediately vacate any position on the court where there a significant likelyhood that a collision with a player might occur. If the ref had been an opposing player, that player would have been guilty of a foul on Duncan. He moved into Duncan's path and was not set when contact occured. Now the NBA is saying that the refs can essentially not only draw charges, but aren't even held to as strict of rules of doing so as the players are. This is all part of making the game about the refs rather than the players.

This incident was entirely the refs fault. I doubt that he did it on purpose, but he was the one who did things wrong, not Duncan. Duncan made a move to make a legal play. There was no reasonably way that Duncan could know that at the last minute the ref would inexplicably change direction and move into his path. This occured after Duncan was committed to taking that path by the laws of physics. IMO God, the creator of the Universe, or Nature if you're not religious, overrules David Stern and his stoopid cronies.

The only possible explanation for the ref being in the middle of the floor and not be in total violation of doing his proper job would have been to administer a jump ball. If that was the case, he should have vacated the court in a timely manner. He failed to do so. Which was mistake #1. Mistake #2 was not looking where he was going. The ref blindly changed directions without looking to see if approaching traffic was headed his way. The long and short is the ref should not have the "right of way" in an incident like this.

LRB
12-03-2003, 07:38 PM
From the Refs point of view, Duncan could have avoided the intense contact. He didnīt, and got the Tech that lead to further observation of this situation. And Stu Jackson and his crew followed the arguments of the tech-calling ref and suspended Duncan. Thatīs okay as far as I am concerned.


How can the ref make that call when he didn't see what happened? He can't.

And why would Duncan intentionally run down a ref? That makes absolutely no sense. If Duncan had intentionally tried to run down the ref, he would have failed because of the refs unpredictable movements.

The bottom line is the NBA refs are a bunch of spoiled babies with big egos and thin skin. There's not more than one or two who don't deserve to be fired. This ref is one of them.

seelenjaeger
12-03-2003, 08:05 PM
Well, thereīs a difference between American Football and Basketball - in both speed and situation. If American Football players make contact with a ref beeing NOT in traffic they will get punished. If in Hockey a player checks a ref without beeing involved in a playing action he will likely get ejected.

I assume the ref made the call because he was standing in an area with not many players around, so he could be quite sure that Duncan was NOT in traffic. Itīs not like the ref got lost under the basket. He was in a merely crowded area, so you have to assume that a guy like Duncan, a professional and highly intelligent player is able to avoid heavy contact with him by either not moving there, or maybe even setting the screen half a foot shorter.

Actually the ref himself was responding to the playing action. It looks to me like he was realizing about his interference of the play, and once Tony Parker approached him, he tried to leave for the weak side.

If you say that Duncan was not able to avoid contact with a unpredictably moving ref, but you see him approaching the refs position from the low post and preparing for contact, that rises the question why he just didnt stopped his movement completely.

The reason is obvious - he didnīt WANT to stop his movement, because he (1) didnīt expect the Ref to move that way and (2) didnīt want to blow the play. Now while (1) is speaking for his innocence, (2) is his coffin nail. Why? Because you can argue that he was taking the risk of touching and probably shoving the Ref in order not to break up the play.

And here we are with the "donīt step on the floor" ruling - if you are willing to take the risk to commit an illegal action, you have to carry the punishment. So if youīre not in traffic, and you can hardly call the Duncan situation traffic imho, stay away from the ref or take the consequence.

LRB
12-03-2003, 08:33 PM
I assume the ref made the call because he was standing in an area with not many players around, so he could be quite sure that Duncan was NOT in traffic. Itīs not like the ref got lost under the basket. He was in a merely crowded area, so you have to assume that a guy like Duncan, a professional and highly intelligent player is able to avoid heavy contact with him by either not moving there, or maybe even setting the screen half a foot shorter.


Any where on the end of the court where the ball is in play and the ref can't have all the players in front of him is a bad place. And he could not be sure that Duncan was not in the traffic. The ref was between the Duncan and the ball. Duncan made a move towards the ball to set a pick. This required him to move as fast as he could to get there and have the greatest possibility to successfully exectue the play. The ref changed direction as the last instant and moved into a path that Duncan could not avoid because of his spead, momentum, and position of other players. Duncan did make a highly intelligent move. The ref didn't. I hit dumbasses like the ref who change direction every day. At work. Out shopping. Wherever I go and there are people. Only I'm not running at full sprint like Duncan and can avoid knocking them down most of the time. But even if I did knock their sorry asses down it would be their on fault. They move into my path by a last minute change of direction which give me no options to avoid them and they did not look to see if this would cause a problem before making the move. Even if I was a superior athelete like Duncan I would still hit these people. Intelligience doesn't help, because they are taking actions that you cannot predict.

Furthermore the ref is obligated to call only the things he can positively identify as being in violation of rules. The ref was not in a position to make the call. And if it was made by one of the other refs, then he was hallucinating which actually would be kind of normal for NBA refs.




If you say that Duncan was not able to avoid contact with a unpredictably moving ref, but you see him approaching the refs position from the low post and preparing for contact, that rises the question why he just didnt stopped his movement completely.
Duncan started preparing for contact after it was too late to stop. Duncan did stop, but only after over running the position where the ref was. I'm sure he made a super human effort just to do that. Duncan initiated his move before the refs made his move to the near sideline. Once Duncan say the direction that the ref was heading he commited him self to passing what would have been behind the ref. But the dumbass stopped his movement and changed directions. But this time physics had take over and Duncan had precious few options and none of them good. He made the best of a bad situation, a situation which was caused by the inattentive actions of another.


The reason is obvious - he didnīt WANT to stop his movement, because he (1) didnīt expect the Ref to move that way and (2) didnīt want to blow the play. Now while (1) is speaking for his innocence, (2) is his coffin nail. Why? Because you can argue that he was taking the risk of touching and probably shoving the Ref in order not to break up the play.

But this is where you are wrong. The ref is not due this protection. Duncan has every right to try and make a play. He can't delay because of a 24 second violation. The ref is not doing his job properly by even being in the position that he is at the start of the clip. There is not valid reason for him to be there. Since he is the ref has to assume full responsibility for the risks, not the players.

The same thing applies to driving. I have the right to drive my car on city streets at the posted speed limits under optimal weather conditions were I have the legal right of way. I do this because I'm in a hurry. But if some idiot or a child runs in front of my car with no warning and I'm going too fast and hit them, then it is there fault or in the case of the child the fault of their caretaker. I would never do this on purpose and would do all I could reasonably do to avoid it. But I will not drive everywhere at 5 miles per hour just because this could happen. That is not reasonable. The law clearly states that the pedestrian assumes the risk of looking both ways an it is their responsibility to avoid being hit by me.

Duncan did everything within the rules. The ref didnot. Therefore the ref is at fault.


And here we are with the "donīt step on the floor" ruling - if you are willing to take the risk to commit an illegal action, you have to carry the punishment. So if youīre not in traffic, and you can hardly call the Duncan situation traffic imho, stay away from the ref or take the consequence.


No that is not right and is outside of the context of the rules. The players have the responsibility of keeping track of 9 other players and a ball that is moving back and forth. There is absolutely no valid reason why they should be tasked with the responsibility of keeping track of the refs positions. It is the refs responsibility to get out of the way and stay out of the way. And if the ref violates it, then he or she pay the consequence and should have no right to complain.

bernardos70
12-03-2003, 08:46 PM
This is why the NBA refs are the way they are. This is what happens in the NFL: NFL ref gets fined half of his paycheck (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpNWZic251BF9TAzI1NjY0ODI1BHNlYwN0 aA--?slug=ap-refereefined&prov=ap&type=lgns)
What happens in the NBA? Blame someone else, like the players.

LRB
12-03-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by: bernardos70
This is why the NBA refs are the way they are. This is what happens in the NFL: NFL ref gets fined half of his paycheck (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpNWZic251BF9TAzI1NjY0ODI1BHNlYwN0 aA--?slug=ap-refereefined&prov=ap&type=lgns)
What happens in the NBA? Blame someone else, like the players.

Which is why I have a high regard for NFL refs and consider NBA refs to be less than a bucket of crap. At least crap is good for something, fertilizing the soil.

MavKikiNYC
12-04-2003, 09:41 AM
Jalen Rose of the Indiana Pacers was fined $5,000 by the NBA and suspended for one game for tripping New York's Patrick Ewing and throwing a forearm that inadvertently hit referee Dick Bavetta. Ewing was fined $2,500 for what the NBA said was "escalating the altercation with Rose."

Does anyone remember the game where Jalen Rose tripped Patrick Ewing, Ewing got up and went after Rose, Rose took a swing at Ewing and ended up tagging Dick Bavetta who was trying to step between them.

For making "inadvertent" contact with Dick Bavetta in a FIGHT, Rose was supsended for precisely one game.

For pushing Nies, who was clearly out of position, out of his path, thereby avoiding a potentially more serious injury to Nies, Duncan gets the same penalty. And please....no one try to tell me that the $5000 fine distinguishes the two punishments.

Where is the rhyme or reason?

LRB
12-04-2003, 11:18 AM
Where is the rhyme or reason?

There is none except the refs' egos are more out of control than ever and the NBA League office are more in support of this than ever.