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Dirkenstien
12-04-2003, 11:50 AM
Dallas trades: SF Antawn Jamison (14.1 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.3 apg in 28.6 minutes)
SF Josh Howard (5.7 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 13.9 minutes)
C Shawn Bradley (3.2 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.1 apg in 11.4 minutes)
Dallas receives: C Greg Ostertag (6.3 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 29.9 minutes)
SF Andrei Kirilenko (17.4 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.1 apg in 36.3 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +0.7 ppg, +4.0 rpg, and +2.7 apg.

Utah trades: C Greg Ostertag (6.3 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 29.9 minutes)
SF Andrei Kirilenko (17.4 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.1 apg in 36.3 minutes)
Utah receives: SF Antawn Jamison (14.1 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.3 apg in 18 games)
SF Josh Howard (5.7 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 14 games)
C Shawn Bradley (3.2 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.1 apg in 16 games)
Change in team outlook: -0.7 ppg, -4.0 rpg, and -2.7 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

u2sarajevo
12-04-2003, 12:09 PM
No thanks. Switch potato for Bradley and Daniels for Howard and I would do it.

Dallas trades:
SF Antawn Jamison (14.1 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.3 apg in 28.6 minutes)
PF Danny Fortson (2.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.0 apg in 11.8 minutes)
SG Marquis Daniels (4.1 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.5 minutes)
Dallas receives:
C Greg Ostertag (6.3 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 29.9 minutes)
SF Andrei Kirilenko (17.4 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.1 apg in 36.3 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +2.7 ppg, +5.0 rpg, and +2.9 apg.

Utah trades:
C Greg Ostertag (6.3 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 29.9 minutes)
SF Andrei Kirilenko (17.4 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.1 apg in 36.3 minutes)
Utah receives:
SF Antawn Jamison (14.1 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.3 apg in 18 games)
PF Danny Fortson (2.8 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.0 apg in 12 games)
SG Marquis Daniels (4.1 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 0.8 apg in 11 games)
Change in team outlook: -2.7 ppg, -5.0 rpg, and -2.9 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

edit: To add realgm's approval of the deal. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif We would have to wait until December 15th because of Daniels being a rookie.

jayC
12-04-2003, 12:42 PM
Id do it. Ostertag is slightly better then bradley and Andrei is a better defensive player then Jamison without being an offensive liability. I like the thug image that Fortson gives us, bradley would never foul some one on his ass on the way to the hoop. I might not sure if Id give up howard either.

u2sarajevo
12-04-2003, 12:52 PM
I don't think we are willing to give up what it will take to get Kirilenko to be honest. He still has tremendous upside (has proven that his first two seasons and continuing to prove that now).

Utah is not going to give us their #1 option and their Center... heck they wouldn't give that to anyone right now.

LRB
12-04-2003, 01:10 PM
Dirkenstein, I would not do your trade. We don't gain enough to be worth the risk of a trade. We're better to stay where we are instead of start over with jelling. Also this doesn't fill any fundamental needs for the Mavs. At best it increase the talent at at a couple of positions fro the price of a very promising rookie. At worst we lose a promising rookie and are worse at 2 positions to boot. The risk/reward ratio is not worth it.

U2 I might do yours. It does fill a need. We would have 2 7 footers besides Dirk to play center. AK 47 gives us good return for Jamison, not as good as Jamison is now IMO, but could potentially be better. But we fill an important need so the risk reward is much better.

sike
12-04-2003, 01:37 PM
news flash: Jazz are not going to give up on their new white star......they think he is going to blow up....and are probably dead on!

LRB
12-04-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by: sike
news flash: Jazz are not going to give up on their new white star......they think he is going to blow up....and are probably dead on!


You're probably right Sike. But 1st I look at a trade to see if it will help us more than hurt us. And even many of the trades that Utah probably wouldn't do because of how high they are on AK, would still hurt the Mavs more than help.

sike
12-04-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: sike
news flash: Jazz are not going to give up on their new white star......they think he is going to blow up....and are probably dead on!


You're probably right Sike. But 1st I look at a trade to see if it will help us more than hurt us. And even many of the trades that Utah probably wouldn't do because of how high they are on AK, would still hurt the Mavs more than help.

i agree with a snowman who loves a lioness....crap I sound like a Springer episode!
edited to add a "p"

LRB
12-04-2003, 02:20 PM
I must have missed the Springer episode where Michael Jackson was on. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

EricaLubarsky
12-04-2003, 02:23 PM
I thought Ostertag was coming up on the end of his contract and wanted to head to Dallas- why would we trade for him, and why would Utah take on Fortson?

LRB
12-04-2003, 02:30 PM
why would Utah take on Fortson?

Because their Fan base would love it. Utah borders upon Idaho and many of the Jazz fans live there, and as you know Idaho is know for its Potatos. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Dirkenstien
12-04-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

why would Utah take on Fortson?

Because their Fan base would love it. Utah borders upon Idaho and many of the Jazz fans live there, and as you know Idaho is know for its Potatos. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

yes, they would have their mascot and player in one person. Thats a combinatoin that ensures nothing but fan support.

sike
12-04-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by: LRB
I must have missed the Springer episode where Michael Jackson was on. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

ONE DAY YOU AND I WILL MEET SOMEWHERE.....YOU'LL SEE ME, I'LL SEE YOU(AND WE'LL KNOW EACH OTHER CUZ WE LOOK JUST LIKE OUR AVATARS).....AND WHEN THAT DAY COMES SNOWMAN...i'm takin' your carrot and runnin' like heck!

Dirkenstien
12-04-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
I thought Ostertag was coming up on the end of his contract and wanted to head to Dallas- why would we trade for him, and why would Utah take on Fortson?

Utah knows they might not land Ostertag this summer which may help to persuade them to trade him even more because this way they could get Bradley whom they have shown interest in and who already has a house up in Utah.

Kirilenko does not address our need down low but he does give us great defense, size, and athleticism while also providing scoring skills on offense. AK47 and dirk would be lethal together but we would still have the log jam at the 4 with Walker and Dirk.

Walkerforthree
12-04-2003, 03:08 PM
how could you not do this trade??? And IMO AK is better then jamison, more ppg, more rpg, more aspg, more bpg, more spg, wayyyyy better d, higher fg%, higher ft%, higher 3p%

Dirkenstien
12-04-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by: Walkerforthree
how could you not do this trade??? And IMO AK is better then jamison, more ppg, more rpg, more aspg, more bpg, more spg, wayyyyy better d, higher fg%, higher ft%, higher 3p%

i dont know...I would do this in a heart beat.

LRB
12-04-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by: Walkerforthree
how could you not do this trade??? And IMO AK is better then jamison, more ppg, more rpg, more aspg, more bpg, more spg, wayyyyy better d, higher fg%, higher ft%, higher 3p%

Which trade are your referring to? "this trade" is highly ambigious since at least 2 have been mentioned in this thread that involve AK and AJ.

As for comparing AK to AJ, AJ has a higher career scoring average and a higher career rebounding average.

sike
12-04-2003, 03:54 PM
really not fair to compare AK's stats with Aj's.....hes coming off the bench for goodness sake.....he's a #3 or 4 option....you should know better forthree!

Walkerforthree
12-04-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: Walkerforthree
how could you not do this trade??? And IMO AK is better then jamison, more ppg, more rpg, more aspg, more bpg, more spg, wayyyyy better d, higher fg%, higher ft%, higher 3p%

Which trade are your referring to? "this trade" is highly ambigious since at least 2 have been mentioned in this thread that involve AK and AJ.

As for comparing AK to AJ, AJ has a higher career scoring average and a higher career rebounding average.

my bad lrb. I would do either trade, the second one is a steal for us. Yes, Jamison has a higher career avg, but that's because AK is young and is just now becoming a star.

Walkerforthree
12-04-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by: sike
really not fair to compare AK's stats with Aj's.....hes coming off the bench for goodness sake.....he's a #3 or 4 option....you should know better forthree!

that's true. But that doesn't really change fg%, ft%, 3pt%, spg, or bpg

sike
12-04-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by: Walkerforthree

Originally posted by: sike
really not fair to compare AK's stats with Aj's.....hes coming off the bench for goodness sake.....he's a #3 or 4 option....you should know better forthree!

that's true. But that doesn't really change fg%, ft%, 3pt%, spg, or bpg

to be sure, AK is having a great year and there is no reason to think it is only an apparition, but no way the JAZZ part with this guy..they think hes theri future...nice thought, but not gonna happen.....unless we get stupid....and in the long run, AK may be a more complete player than AJ....that is yet to be seen!

Dirkenstien
12-04-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: Walkerforthree

Originally posted by: sike
really not fair to compare AK's stats with Aj's.....hes coming off the bench for goodness sake.....he's a #3 or 4 option....you should know better forthree!

that's true. But that doesn't really change fg%, ft%, 3pt%, spg, or bpg

to be sure, AK is having a great year and there is no reason to think it is only an apparition, but no way the JAZZ part with this guy..they think hes theri future...nice thought, but not gonna happen.....unless we get stupid....and in the long run, AK may be a more complete player than AJ....that is yet to be seen!

If it came down to Utah offering Kirilenko for Jamison..would you accept or decline? Kirilenko would absolutely be more valuable to our team than Jamison from my perspective...i would take him over Jamison any day regardless if Jamison is a more complete player now or not

sike
12-04-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by: Dirkenstien

Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: Walkerforthree

Originally posted by: sike
really not fair to compare AK's stats with Aj's.....hes coming off the bench for goodness sake.....he's a #3 or 4 option....you should know better forthree!

that's true. But that doesn't really change fg%, ft%, 3pt%, spg, or bpg

to be sure, AK is having a great year and there is no reason to think it is only an apparition, but no way the JAZZ part with this guy..they think hes theri future...nice thought, but not gonna happen.....unless we get stupid....and in the long run, AK may be a more complete player than AJ....that is yet to be seen!

If it came down to Utah offering Kirilenko for Jamison..would you accept or decline? Kirilenko would absolutely be more valuable to our team than Jamison from my perspective...i would take him over Jamison any day regardless if Jamison is a more complete player now or not

one major atvantage in AJ's favor in my mind,is his post game....AK has not really developed one yet.....or not to the extent that AJ has....that may be enough to wing me in Jamison's favor....but not going to spend too much time pondering this one...it aint gonna happen!

Dirkenstien
12-04-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: Dirkenstien

Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: Walkerforthree

Originally posted by: sike
really not fair to compare AK's stats with Aj's.....hes coming off the bench for goodness sake.....he's a #3 or 4 option....you should know better forthree!

that's true. But that doesn't really change fg%, ft%, 3pt%, spg, or bpg

to be sure, AK is having a great year and there is no reason to think it is only an apparition, but no way the JAZZ part with this guy..they think hes theri future...nice thought, but not gonna happen.....unless we get stupid....and in the long run, AK may be a more complete player than AJ....that is yet to be seen!

If it came down to Utah offering Kirilenko for Jamison..would you accept or decline? Kirilenko would absolutely be more valuable to our team than Jamison from my perspective...i would take him over Jamison any day regardless if Jamison is a more complete player now or not

one major atvantage in AJ's favor in my mind,is his post game....AK has not really developed one yet.....or not to the extent that AJ has....that may be enough to wing me in Jamison's favor....but not going to spend too much time pondering this one...it aint gonna happen!

obviously its very likely this trade isnt going to happen and it seems as though no one in particular has rumored this trade to possess a legitimate chance of materializing, rather it was a technique devised to see who you would rather have on you team right now at this very moment when given the opportunity to choose between Jamison or AK.... you chose Jamison.

A more suitable preference through my perspective would be to take Kerilenko, his tough defense both out near the perimeter as well as down low outweigh Jamison's post game tremendously and I would hope after considering this you would ponder the fact that we are not in need of an offensive attribute as such Jamison's post game provides more so we could advantagely benefit from the Solid D that Kerilenko provides.

Still though, if you prefer an offensive attribute over a defensive one on our team right now then that is your choice, however, it is not what the Mavericks are in need of to make themselves a more competitive team and strive for a championship.

Walkerforthree
12-04-2003, 08:21 PM
AK aint trash offensively, 18 ppg on over 50% shooting with few other options.

dirkformvp
12-04-2003, 08:23 PM
that is not trash at all, thats very decent, he is explosive on offense and he has great defense on players smaller or bigger than him

LRB
12-04-2003, 08:38 PM
I don't do a straight up Jamison for AK (with the requisite filler spares) trade. I'll admit that AK might be better than AJ. But it's no sure thing. But is he that much better now, no, not IMO. What do I mean by that much. I mean is AK enough better to off set setting the Mavs back in their jelling. Pluse AK hurts the Mavs postup game. We're not great, but AJ is our best postup option. AK as has been pointed out earlier isn't as far advanced as AJ there. This trade fulfills no major need for the Mavs. It sets them back this year. At some point you have to stop the trades that will give you a chance next year to win it all and decide that come hell or high water that you will focus on winning this year. IMO we've got a better chance for a ring this year with AJ than with AK.

dirkformvp
12-04-2003, 08:42 PM
jamison is an all around player, he has defense, can score and he is a team player, AK will try to do everything by himself unless he knows he wont be able to score on that possesion. i dont think we have a better chance with AJ than AW, i think walker will help us since he has got the playoff experience, jamison might fell alittle nervous since it will be his first time.

LRB
12-04-2003, 08:50 PM
i dont think we have a better chance with AJ than AW,

i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gifi/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif

We're talking about AJ(Jamison) versus AK(kirilenko) how does AJ versus AW(Walker) enter into the picture???

We already have both Walker and Jamison.

dirkformvp
12-04-2003, 08:53 PM
your the one who sed that we have a better chance to get a ring with jamison than walker, all i was doing was contradicting on what you said LRB, but i'll try to stay on the topic. jamison is better in our team right now, than kirilenko

LRB
12-04-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by: dirkformvp
your the one who sed that we have a better chance to get a ring with jamison than walker, all i was doing was contradicting on what you said LRB, but i'll try to stay on the topic. jamison is better in our team right now, than kirilenko

Excuse me. Where in this thread did I say that Jamison is better than Walker. I have been discussing AK vs Jamison. Until your post, I haven't mentioned walker and did so only to question why you did.

Murphy3
12-04-2003, 09:15 PM
Most of you don't realize how good AK is. The guy either is or shortly will be a better player than Jamison. There's no way Utah does this deal. AK is one of the best all around players in the NBA. The guy blocks shots, scores, rebounds, steals the ball, passes well and plays good man to man defense.

the guy is an all around stud.

LRB
12-04-2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by: Murphy3
Most of you don't realize how good AK is. The guy either is or shortly will be a better player than Jamison. There's no way Utah does this deal. AK is one of the best all around players in the NBA. The guy blocks shots, scores, rebounds, steals the ball, passes well and plays good man to man defense.

the guy is an all around stud.

Murphy, I don't disagree that Utah wouldn't do the deal. I wouldn't do it from Utah's perspective myself. I just don't think AK brings enough extra this year to justify it. In future years he probably would.

dirkformvp
12-04-2003, 09:27 PM
right now we dont need a back up forward, we need to figure out how to get a back up center or at least a decent one.

Murphy3
12-04-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Most of you don't realize how good AK is. The guy either is or shortly will be a better player than Jamison. There's no way Utah does this deal. AK is one of the best all around players in the NBA. The guy blocks shots, scores, rebounds, steals the ball, passes well and plays good man to man defense.

the guy is an all around stud.

Murphy, I don't disagree that Utah wouldn't do the deal. I wouldn't do it from Utah's perspective myself. I just don't think AK brings enough extra this year to justify it. In future years he probably would.


You wouldn't do it from Utah's persective? And you wouldn't do it from the Mavs perspective
hmmmm
interesting.

I'd honestly trade anyone on the team for AK except for Dirk and maybe steve

Dirkenstien
12-04-2003, 09:55 PM
through my perspective AK gives us a better chance to win it all than Jamison does. Also, LRB I'm not sure I would agree with you saying Jamison is our best post up player...Walker has a great post up.

dirkformvp
12-04-2003, 09:58 PM
how is AK give us a better chance than AW? he's just saying that because maybe walker is more of the outside shooter than he is a post up

LRB
12-04-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by: Dirkenstien
through my perspective AK gives us a better chance to win it all than Jamison does. Also, LRB I'm not sure I would agree with you saying Jamison is our best post up player...Walker has a great post up.


An arguable point, but I still put Jamison firmly at #1. Walker is better at other aspects though. Jump shot, driving, and passing. But AJ is better at getting his shot off against tough lowpost defenders.

dirkformvp
12-04-2003, 10:13 PM
walker is pretty much an all around player but he isnt a good post up player as he is a shooter or driving to the basket

Walkerforthree
12-04-2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by: Murphy3

Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Most of you don't realize how good AK is. The guy either is or shortly will be a better player than Jamison. There's no way Utah does this deal. AK is one of the best all around players in the NBA. The guy blocks shots, scores, rebounds, steals the ball, passes well and plays good man to man defense.

the guy is an all around stud.

Murphy, I don't disagree that Utah wouldn't do the deal. I wouldn't do it from Utah's perspective myself. I just don't think AK brings enough extra this year to justify it. In future years he probably would.


You wouldn't do it from Utah's persective? And you wouldn't do it from the Mavs perspective
hmmmm
interesting.

I'd honestly trade anyone on the team for AK except for Dirk and maybe steve



My thoughts exactly Murph. AK is just insane, the guy is freaking amazing. And yes we have a better chance for a ring with AK47 as he is an INSANE defender and near as good if not better offensively.

dirkformvp
12-04-2003, 10:30 PM
well i dont think that we will be trading jamison anytime soon unless the occasion calls for it, but AK wont be coming to soon anytime soon.

thebac
12-05-2003, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by: Murphy3

Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Most of you don't realize how good AK is. The guy either is or shortly will be a better player than Jamison. There's no way Utah does this deal. AK is one of the best all around players in the NBA. The guy blocks shots, scores, rebounds, steals the ball, passes well and plays good man to man defense.

the guy is an all around stud.

Murphy, I don't disagree that Utah wouldn't do the deal. I wouldn't do it from Utah's perspective myself. I just don't think AK brings enough extra this year to justify it. In future years he probably would.


You wouldn't do it from Utah's persective? And you wouldn't do it from the Mavs perspective
hmmmm
interesting.

I'd honestly trade anyone on the team for AK except for Dirk and maybe steve

For Kirilenko, I'd give any two players (leaving aside contract issues), including Steve. I don't see how Cubes would turn down either deal. Of course, the Jazz would never do it. The argument that Kirilenko's career stats are lower than AJ's doesn't hold--he has been playing in Stockton and Malone's shadow until this season (though he's always brought it defensively, averaging more than 1.5 steals and 2 blocks a game in just 28 minutes for his career! This season he's averaging an otherworldly 2.5 blocks and 2.25 steals a game!).

Look at the stats more closely:
AJ averages 19.8 PPG, on 17 FGA and 5.3 FTA, with 7.4 RPG, 1 SPG, 2.1 TOPG, in 36 MPG, 45.5 FG%
AK averages 12 PPG on 8.2 FGA and 4.6 FTA, with 5.3 RPG, 1.5 SPG, 2 BPG, 1.6 TOPG, in 28 MPG, 47.6 FG%

so they are comparable on rebounding (adjusted for minutes, especially seeing how AK did increase his rebounds this year with more minutes), TOPG (again adjusted for minutes, though admittedly with AJ taking more shots, you would expect him to have even more TO's), and APG.

Where is AJ superior? One might point to scoring, b/c he averages 19.8 PPG over his career, and AK is just averaging 17.5 PPG this season. However, when you look more closely you see: a) AJ shoots a lower percentage b) AJ takes more shots. Besides, on a Mavs team with a bunch of scoring options, do you really need another scorer like AJ who scores 19.8 PPG for his career on 17 FGA? Or would you rather give up a few shots to Dirk, and have AK who scores 17.5 PPG on 11.8 FGA!!!

Where is AK superior? Higher shooting percentage, better contract, much better defense!

Consider this: In 19 games this season, AK has had

19 games with at least 1 block or steal
18 games with at least 2 of either blocks or steals or a combination
14 games with at least 1 of either blocks or steals and 2 of the other
7 games with at least 2 blocks and 2 steals

I know blocks and steals are not the ultimate measure of a defender, but this guy is a superior perimeter defender who blocks shots as well, and you wouldn't give up AJ and change to get him?

sike
12-06-2003, 12:49 PM
I know blocks and steals are not the ultimate measure of a defender, but this guy is a superior perimeter defender who blocks shots as well, and you wouldn't give up AJ and change to get him?[/quote]

yes bac, the Mavs would do this deal...but not in 100yrs do the Jazz!