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kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 12:13 AM
The other day I suggested some changes that could be made to "fix" the Mavericks. This is the second installment of "The Solution", and it involves a mammoth trade that I think would turn the Mavericks into legitimate title contenders -- now, and in the years to come.



Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)

Dallas receives: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -4.9 ppg, -4.7 rpg, and -0.8 apg.

Orlando trades: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)

Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +4.9 ppg, +4.7 rpg, and +0.8 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

+++

We'd have to wait until Dec 20th for the various trade restrictions to clear

Here's your new roster:

Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan - Najera
Josh Howard
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk


And if you want to take it even one step further, you deal Najera for Mihm and Sundov.

Mihm - Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan
Josh
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk


Thoughts are welcome...

bogey
12-08-2003, 12:29 AM
I like it if for no other reason that it would bother the hell out of murphy3 (he loves Juwan you know i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif )


Of course, Orlando never makes this trade. Their franchise guy is TMac and I cannot see them trading him, even if they are getting value or even winning in the return. But, I would do it in a heartbeat. You probably get nothing out of Hill but a mystery paycheck going off into na-na land, I like Howard's game, I really like what DeClerq has done this season, and of course there is that little throw in McGrady.

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 12:30 AM
Of course, Orlando never makes this trade.

Ah, but they might, especially with things going the way they are in Orlando. This trade would make the Magic a top 4 team in the East right now.

EricaLubarsky
12-08-2003, 12:35 AM
Thoughts are welcome...

well Im not sure you are joking or not....i/expressions/moon.gif

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 12:35 AM
I'm as serious as I can be. I'd make this trade in a heartbeat.

bogey
12-08-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I'm as serious as I can be. I'd make this trade in a heartbeat.

So would I! I just don't think Orlando could survive the fan backlash of shipping out a superstar in McGrady for non-superstar players. I know Finley is a marquee guy, so are Jamison and Walker, but those superstar type guys are so very rare. A rule in every sport is generally that you don't trade megastars for even a package of great players.

EricaLubarsky
12-08-2003, 12:39 AM
PS
I hate Juwan Howard
McGrady is Kobe Bryant only more effective on offense and less interested defensively. In other words, a perfect fit
I hate to admit it- but I kinda like parts of the deal.

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by: bogey

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I'm as serious as I can be. I'd make this trade in a heartbeat.

So would I! I just don't think Orlando could survive the fan backlash of shipping out a superstar in McGrady for non-superstar players. I know Finley is a marquee guy, so are Jamison and Walker, but those superstar type guys are so very rare. A rule in every sport is generally that you don't trade megastars for even a package of great players.

They don't trade superstars for one or two really good players -- but three? The Magic get three guys who could make the Eastern Conference All-Star team and who legitimately could lead that team deep into the Eastern Conference playoffs. They haven't gotten past the first round with McGrady -- they almost certainly would with this trade.

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
PS
I hate Juwan Howard
McGrady is Kobe Bryant only more effective on offense and less interested defensively. In other words, a perfect fit
I hate to admit it- but I kinda like parts of the deal.

Juwan's not a great fit if you have to count on him a lot -- but the Mavs wouldn't have to. He's got a decent low post game and could give the Mavs some bench scoring -- because I envision him as a bench player on this team.

This trade is about McGrady. He makes the deal worth it.

Misfit Mav
12-08-2003, 12:46 AM
Interesting. Orlando has to be worried now that McGrady will fly the coop this summer anyway-- this might be a good way to get something in return for him while they still can. It's obviously a great trade for us. Dirk and TMac would be the best scoring tandem in the league for the next decade, and we'd retain Nash, and with Josh Howard coming on strong we don't even end up with a hole at forward. The only problem I see is that Nellie would quickly resort to using Juwan Howard at center, I think.

The new Orlando line-up would probably be:

Drew Gooden/Steven Hunter
Antoine Walker
Antawn Jamison
Michael Finley
Ty Lue/Reece Gaines

Pretty good for the East. But would they be willing to give up McGrady? I think they might if they are convinced he will not resign. I do not know what's going on behind the scenes in Orlando, although I assume it's ugly. I don't think it will happen, but I wonder if we'll see "McGrady Wants Out" rumours around the trading deadline.

bogey
12-08-2003, 12:49 AM
I always put on my GM hat when thinking about deals......

While wearing my Mavs GM hat I make the deal every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
While wearing the Orlando GM hat, I teeter back and forth but never can make myself pull the trigger. I mean...It's TMac for God's sake. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 12:52 AM
Interesting. Orlando has to be worried now that McGrady will fly the coop this summer anyway-- this might be a good way to get something in return for him while they still can. It's obviously a great trade for us. Dirk and TMac would be the best scoring tandem in the league for the next decade, and we'd retain Nash, and with Josh Howard coming on strong we don't even end up with a hole at forward. The only problem I see is that Nellie would quickly resort to using Juwan Howard at center, I think.

You hit on one of the reasons Orlando might do it -- McGrady's upcoming free agency.

If Nellie uses Juwan at center, so what? Dirk was playing center before this trade, so does it matter who guards whom? Dirk will still effectively be the center on the floor.

The best part of this deal is that three of your five starters would then be 25 or younger. If you added in the Mihm deal, 4 of your 5 starters would be 25 or younger.

Oh yeah, and you'd have two legitimate superstars and an All-NBA point guard as your third best player.

MavsFanFinley
12-08-2003, 12:52 AM
Why does Orlando do this deal? They'd be trading away the one good center they have right now. Not to mention Howard, who has been giving a lot of minutes there. Anyway Bradley or Najera can be worked into the deal?

They'd have a logjam at sf with the addition of Jamison. What about Giricek and Harvey? Not to mention Garrity. I know Jamison is clearly an upgrade, but somebody isn't going to be happy.

Hunter/Pachulia
Walker/Gooden
Jamison/Giricek/Harvey/Garrity
Finley/Bogans/Gaines
Lue/Strickland/Williams

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 12:53 AM
Bogey, you might be right, but then again, as Misfit pointed out, they might want to get a pretty nice return on T-Mac rather than be forced into a painful sign-and-trade or get nothing at all later on.

EricaLubarsky
12-08-2003, 12:54 AM
as crazy as it seems, Orlando may do it
Who is the GM? Even if he isnt as dumb as Ainge, he might pull the trigger

DeClerq is awful

Orlando doesnt want Hill around anymore

Grant Hill will fill that spot on the IL that needs to be filled and he will be a good surrogate for Alonzo Mourning for star player that will never play again. Hey we were looking for one last summer...

What would it take to get Mihm/Cleveland in on the deal? He and Kaman are the only two youngins that I really like.

Najera>Mihm/Sundov would never happen

Psychedelic Fuzz
12-08-2003, 12:56 AM
Ah, but they might, especially with things going the way they are in Orlando. This trade would make the Magic a top 4 team in the East right now.

they should be one already.
I don't see either team trading most of it's marquee guys like this, or Orlando trading away the face of the franchise for anyone. other than that, this deal intriques me. I wouldn't want Grant Hill, we got rid of the dead weight on the roster, we don't need to add more, but that's really the only problem I have.

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 12:57 AM
Nobody thought that GS would deal Jamison and the rest of the package for NVE and a bunch of bench warmers.

Nobody thought that Boston would deal Walker for the crap we gave up.

And let's not act like Dallas isn't helping Orlando out.

The Magic are immediately better.

The Magic get to dump their biggest albatross -- Grant Hill's contract.

The Magic avoid the embarrassment of losing another marquee player to free agency.

MavsFanFinley
12-08-2003, 12:58 AM
Throw in Bradley and Pat Garrity and the deal still works.

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 12:59 AM
I'd do that if I had to.

EricaLubarsky
12-08-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Nobody thought that GS would deal Jamison and the rest of the package for NVE and a bunch of bench warmers.

Nobody thought that Boston would deal Walker for the crap we gave up.

And let's not act like Dallas isn't helping Orlando out.

The Magic are immediately better.

The Magic get to dump their biggest albatross -- Grant Hill's contract.

The Magic avoid the embarrassment of losing another marquee player to free agency.

true. That or they could get a decent coach. They were playoff competitive last year. Who knows....this is one of the craziest years I have seen for years in sports- HUGE trades, Coaches' heads are flying, good teams are bad, elite teams are average, bad teams are suddenly atop the division....

MavsFanFinley
12-08-2003, 01:03 AM
Orlando would be stupid not to do a trade of Bradley/Walker/Jamison/Finley for DeClercq/Howard/Hill/Garrity/McGrady.

Would Dallas pull the trigger though? I think so.

EricaLubarsky
12-08-2003, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
Orlando would be stupid not to do a trade of Bradley/Walker/Jamison/Finley for DeClercq/Howard/Hill/Garrity/McGrady.

Would Dallas pull the trigger though? I think so.

We lose any semblance of having a center
We lose out at Forward
-----Two things we went into the season trying to fix


Garrity shoots the three and is a decent, traditional SF
T-Mac is phenomenal.
DeClerq is no better than Eschmeyer
JuWan sucks butt and wouldnt want to come back

but none of that matters since Walker is a point forward and Nellie will never give him up

Dirkenstien
12-08-2003, 02:04 AM
This trade seems a bit iffy at first, but just imagining Dirk, Nash, and McGrady on the same team intrigues me very much. Lets hope Orlando continues to lose so this would have a more probable chance of actually happening...this does make them instant competitors though and IMO puts them in a race for the NBA finals, hell perhaps even favorites to go to the finals out of the east.

Nonetheless, this trade makes us younger and if nothing else sets us up to be championship favorites next season if we brought in a decent center. I'd do this in a heart beat and believe it may be difficult to decline atleast without heavy consideration, from both participating teams.

Lvubun1
12-08-2003, 03:27 AM
Decent idea, and much better then most of the trade ideas on here but you would have to include Nash. T-Mac is a superstar, period. You don't trade a couple good players for a superstar. If it was possible would you trade Finley, Walker, and Jamison for Dirk, hell no you would laugh. T-Mac and Dirk are on the same level, so if the Mavs wouldn't do it for Dirk, what makes anybody think the Magic would do it for T-Mac. Unless they are really trying to give him away and/or they think he will leave, they would probably hang-up the phone almost right away. Finley as much as I love the guy, the window for getting equal value is gone, G.S could have had him but didn't want to take on his contract, and that was before a slow start this season. Jamison I have harped on many times, a max player who shouldn't be one, the Magic were going to offer the max to Duncan but instead they are going to be paying it to Jamison, not a chance. Walker might have actually raised his trade value some this year, before this year I would even say he would almost have negative value, like a "If you want this guy, you have to take him" ala NVE and Raef. Think about it, he was traded for Raef, probably one of the top 10 overpaid guys in the league, how easy would it have been for every single team in the league to offer more then Raef? Every team in the league probably has 4-5 players with more trade value then Raef, that they could have traded to get Walker, nobody bit.

And lastly and the #1 reason is Magic would be taking on 38 million dollar in salary per year with this trade, 38 MILLION for 3 players, none superstars, unheard of. I might be crazy but I would rather have T-Mac at 13 mill a year then Walker, Finley and Jamison at 38 million. Even when Grant Hill's contract ends they would still be paying Jamison and Fin a combined 34 million. The other trades(Walker, Jamison) are two different situations. Either the team did it to clear space(Jamison) or just to get rid of a player(Walker). The Magic damn sure wouldn't be clearing space, and I don't think the are trading to get rid of T-Mac, plus as it has been said T-mac is a superstar.

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Would Dallas pull the trigger though? I think so.

We lose any semblance of having a center

Maybe this year, but the odds seems really good that the Mavs can add a decent center in the offseason in Ostertag. With three scorers like Dirk, McGrady, and Nash, you just need complementary guys around them. Ostertag is that kind of guy.


We lose out at Forward

We lose some depth, but it allows Josh Howard to go ahead and start. Ask yourself this: Who do you view as the small forward of the future? Howard or Jamison? Give me Howard.

Nash13
12-08-2003, 09:24 AM
MFF, i thought Garrity had an injury that put him out for the season.

Erica, this is the same GM that let go of Ben Wallace, Chauncy Billups, and Troy Hudson. So this is a possibility.

I think that's a little too much to give up. I'd keep Jamison.

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by: Lvubun1
Decent idea, and much better then most of the trade ideas on here but you would have to include Nash. T-Mac is a superstar, period. You don't trade a couple good players for a superstar. If it was possible would you trade Finley, Walker, and Jamison for Dirk, hell no you would laugh. T-Mac and Dirk are on the same level, so if the Mavs wouldn't do it for Dirk, what makes anybody think the Magic would do it for T-Mac.

You raise a legitimate point. But if you're offering the Magic three All-Star level players for one superstar, it starts to make more sense. It's at least possible.

If this were Garnett, I'd agree with you -- no way it happens. But superstar swingmen simply don't have the same value as superstar bigs.


And lastly and the #1 reason is Magic would be taking on 38 million dollar in salary per year with this trade, 38 MILLION for 3 players, none superstars, unheard of. I might be crazy but I would rather have T-Mac at 13 mill a year then Walker, Finley and Jamison at 38 million. Even when Grant Hill's contract ends they would still be paying Jamison and Fin a combined 34 million. The other trades(Walker, Jamison) are two different situations. Either the team did it to clear space(Jamison) or just to get rid of a player(Walker). The Magic damn sure wouldn't be clearing space, and I don't think the are trading to get rid of T-Mac, plus as it has been said T-mac is a superstar.

This is a legitimate point too. I just think that the Magic might look past this from the standpoint that they are instantly becoming more competitive, and they have a chance to do some damage in the East. A chance they don't have right now.



I hear a lot of people telling me it will never happen -- something I readily concede is a possibility. Is there anybody out there who would NOT make this trade from a Dallas perspective? Is there anybody out there who thinks this trade doesn't make Orlando better?

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by: Nash13
I think that's a little too much to give up. I'd keep Jamison.


I don't see any way that it happens if you don't offer all three.

Dirkenstien
12-08-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Originally posted by: Nash13
I think that's a little too much to give up. I'd keep Jamison.


I don't see any way that it happens if you don't offer all three.

yeah, you would definitely have to trade all three to pull McGrady away. IMO this trade makes both teams better and I could see both teams doing it.

kingrex
12-08-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

I hear a lot of people telling me it will never happen -- something I readily concede is a possibility. Is there anybody out there who would NOT make this trade from a Dallas perspective? Is there anybody out there who thinks this trade doesn't make Orlando better?

This trade would create a new and improved Big Three (upgrade being McGrady over Finley), but wouldn't they be in the same situation as last year? The Big Three with no center? Now granted we now have a legit superstar in McGrady, but I'm not convinced that this new and improved Big Three has a better chance than our current Big Five. Therefore, from the Dallas perspective, it is always tempting to get a guy like McGrady, but I would only do a trade this year that improves our situation in the middle and nothing else.

As for Orlando, they need to do something, almost anything to shake things up, because nothing they're doing right now is working. However, losing McGrady is akin to Dallas losing Nowitzki. I agree that the price of a swingman is less than a big man, but McGrady is not just any swingman. Having said that, I agree this would improve Orlando instantly, but as someone else has already posted, the only way that Orlando would do this is if they felt they would be losing McGrady anyway. In the final analysis, if I were their GM, I'd do it, but do it reluctantly.

MavsFanFinley
12-08-2003, 11:06 AM
You don't trade a couple good players for a superstar.

As a rule, you're right Lvubun1.

This is a different situation though. Orlando isn't going anywhere with McGrady. They've brought in other pieces and it still isn't working. They need a change and trading their superstar might be the best option now.

I can't think of another superstar that is on the block that would be close or equal value to McGrady. Given the chance, I think Orlando would take back 3 stars instead of letting him walk. Especially if a team is willing to take on Grant Hill's contract.

Unless they get a deal where they want to go young as in Chicago offers a package of Curry/Chandler plus more. Or Clippers offer something like Brand/Maggette/Kamen.

LRB
12-08-2003, 11:19 AM
I'd do it KG. I would try to get a draft pick out of it if possible. we are trading 2 allstars for 1 superstar, 2 spares, and 1 huge contract for a player who'll never play again.

TMac has better handles and can drive the ball unlike Fin. He certainly could fulfill Nellie's vision of a point forward. We'll take somewhat of a hit on rebounding, but it shouldn't be that bad. This would be an even better deal it would could get rid of Tony Delk here or in another trade. As long as Delk is here, I'm afraid that JHo will benched for Delk. Most likely Nellie puts TMac at the 3 and and Delk at the 2 to start. SMALL BALL rules in Nellies mind. I'd look for a starting lineup of Nash, Delk, TMac, Dirk, and Juan Howard. Still this will probably help next year when we get a new coach. I like the idea of 2 superstars, 1 allstar, and 1 potential allstar all able to play in the lineup without anyone being out of position than 1 superstar, 4 allstars, 1 potential star with only 4 of the 6 being able to play at once without someone being out of position. I agree that JHo has potential to be much better than Jamision because of his ability to play both sides of the ball so well. Going against TMac on a regular basis would really make him great ala Pippen going against Jordan in practice.

I think the trade hurts us this year, but it looks like Nellie has already conceded to the Lakers this year anyways so it shouldn't matter. If we finish in 5th place instead of 2nd, it's no big deal. This will also really let Dirk grow. I really think the senergy of TMac and Dirk could be tremendous. Throw Nash and JHo in the mix and we've really got something. Now if we can add another decent center such as Mihm or Ostertag to go with Bradley and a already strong bench at the other 4 positions, then I think we're set for a long series of title runs. Just need to find a coach with some balls. But it's unlikely that we'll address that here.

So, I'll do the trade regardless, but I'd still try to wring a little more from Orlando in a future draft pick.

kingrex
12-08-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by: LRB
I'd do it KG. I would try to get a draft pick out of it if possible. we are trading 2 allstars for 1 superstar, 2 spares, and 1 huge contract for a player who'll never play again.

TMac has better handles and can drive the ball unlike Fin. He certainly could fulfill Nellie's vision of a point forward. We'll take somewhat of a hit on rebounding, but it shouldn't be that bad. This would be an even better deal it would could get rid of Tony Delk here or in another trade. As long as Delk is here, I'm afraid that JHo will benched for Delk. Most likely Nellie puts TMac at the 3 and and Delk at the 2 to start. SMALL BALL rules in Nellies mind. I'd look for a starting lineup of Nash, Delk, TMac, Dirk, and Juan Howard. Still this will probably help next year when we get a new coach. I like the idea of 2 superstars, 1 allstar, and 1 potential allstar all able to play in the lineup without anyone being out of position than 1 superstar, 4 allstars, 1 potential star with only 4 of the 6 being able to play at once without someone being out of position. I agree that JHo has potential to be much better than Jamision because of his ability to play both sides of the ball so well. Going against TMac on a regular basis would really make him great ala Pippen going against Jordan in practice.

I think the trade hurts us this year, but it looks like Nellie has already conceded to the Lakers this year anyways so it shouldn't matter. If we finish in 5th place instead of 2nd, it's no big deal. This will also really let Dirk grow. I really think the senergy of TMac and Dirk could be tremendous. Throw Nash and JHo in the mix and we've really got something. Now if we can add another decent center such as Mihm or Ostertag to go with Bradley and a already strong bench at the other 4 positions, then I think we're set for a long series of title runs. Just need to find a coach with some balls. But it's unlikely that we'll address that here.

So, I'll do the trade regardless, but I'd still try to wring a little more from Orlando in a future draft pick.

So I get the feeling you don't like Nelson that much? ? i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Stressboy
12-08-2003, 11:24 AM
I would have a real problem with this trade from a Mavs perspective. We would go back to being the worst rebounding team out of all of the contenders and instead of a productive Fin and his max contract we would have Grant Hills sitting on the bench, and don't tell me Josh Howard is going to make up the rebounding slack with his avg 5 fouls per game. Outside of rebounding and salaries, I also have a problem with T-Macs attitude. I have no doubts in my mind that if Finley replaced T-Mac on that team this year, they would have won a few more games. T-Mac pisses on his teammates, and quit on his coach.

I don't know if anyone else saw it, but during the game the other night, T-Mac was yelling at Lou about a turn over or somthing and Lou shot back an F-you type comment. That team sucks because the superstar has become a baby. Sorry, but don't give me that. With all that being said, I do the trade for Fin/Walker or Fin/Jamison in a heartbeat, but I don't give it all up for a baby with a bad back.

Stressboy

LRB
12-08-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by: kingrex

Originally posted by: LRB
I'd do it KG. I would try to get a draft pick out of it if possible. we are trading 2 allstars for 1 superstar, 2 spares, and 1 huge contract for a player who'll never play again.

TMac has better handles and can drive the ball unlike Fin. He certainly could fulfill Nellie's vision of a point forward. We'll take somewhat of a hit on rebounding, but it shouldn't be that bad. This would be an even better deal it would could get rid of Tony Delk here or in another trade. As long as Delk is here, I'm afraid that JHo will benched for Delk. Most likely Nellie puts TMac at the 3 and and Delk at the 2 to start. SMALL BALL rules in Nellies mind. I'd look for a starting lineup of Nash, Delk, TMac, Dirk, and Juan Howard. Still this will probably help next year when we get a new coach. I like the idea of 2 superstars, 1 allstar, and 1 potential allstar all able to play in the lineup without anyone being out of position than 1 superstar, 4 allstars, 1 potential star with only 4 of the 6 being able to play at once without someone being out of position. I agree that JHo has potential to be much better than Jamision because of his ability to play both sides of the ball so well. Going against TMac on a regular basis would really make him great ala Pippen going against Jordan in practice.

I think the trade hurts us this year, but it looks like Nellie has already conceded to the Lakers this year anyways so it shouldn't matter. If we finish in 5th place instead of 2nd, it's no big deal. This will also really let Dirk grow. I really think the senergy of TMac and Dirk could be tremendous. Throw Nash and JHo in the mix and we've really got something. Now if we can add another decent center such as Mihm or Ostertag to go with Bradley and a already strong bench at the other 4 positions, then I think we're set for a long series of title runs. Just need to find a coach with some balls. But it's unlikely that we'll address that here.

So, I'll do the trade regardless, but I'd still try to wring a little more from Orlando in a future draft pick.


So I get the feeling you don't like Nelson that much? ? i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Actually I really do like the guy. I really do appreciate what he's done for the Mavs so far. I just believe we'll never get a championship with him at the reins. He just doesn't have that killer attitude to infuse into the players. He's also more equiped to coach an underdog team than a favorite or near equal to the favorite.

I think that this trade has to take into consideration what the coaching situation will be and what our options will be on deciding what direction it will take.

kingrex
12-08-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by: Stressboy
I would have a real problem with this trade from a Mavs perspective. We would go back to being the worst rebounding team out of all of the contenders and instead of a productive Fin and his max contract we would have Grant Hills sitting on the bench, and don't tell me Josh Howard is going to make up the rebounding slack with his avg 5 fouls per game. Outside of rebounding and salaries, I also have a problem with T-Macs attitude. I have no doubts in my mind that if Finley replaced T-Mac on that team this year, they would have won a few more games. T-Mac pisses on his teammates, and quit on his coach.

I don't know if anyone else saw it, but during the game the other night, T-Mac was yelling at Lou about a turn over or somthing and Lou shot back an F-you type comment. That team sucks because the superstar has become a baby. Sorry, but don't give me that. With all that being said, I do the trade for Fin/Walker or Fin/Jamison in a heartbeat, but I don't give it all up for a baby with a bad back.

Stressboy

I agree that McGrady has not stepped up as a leader of that team this year, but he is also very young and needs to mature a bit more. Under a guy like Nelson, he may learn to play better team ball.

I also agree that McGrady will not improve our rebounding (see my post above), but there is no doubt that McGrady is a an upgrade to Finley.

Having said that all that, if I were GM for Dallas, I wouldn't make this trade, but then again there's a reason why I'm not GM for Dallas. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

LRB
12-08-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by: Stressboy
I would have a real problem with this trade from a Mavs perspective. We would go back to being the worst rebounding team out of all of the contenders and instead of a productive Fin and his max contract we would have Grant Hills sitting on the bench, and don't tell me Josh Howard is going to make up the rebounding slack with his avg 5 fouls per game. Outside of rebounding and salaries, I also have a problem with T-Macs attitude. I have no doubts in my mind that if Finley replaced T-Mac on that team this year, they would have won a few more games. T-Mac pisses on his teammates, and quit on his coach.

I don't know if anyone else saw it, but during the game the other night, T-Mac was yelling at Lou about a turn over or somthing and Lou shot back an F-you type comment. That team sucks because the superstar has become a baby. Sorry, but don't give me that. With all that being said, I do the trade for Fin/Walker or Fin/Jamison in a heartbeat, but I don't give it all up for a baby with a bad back.

Stressboy


Actually I don't think that this hurts us all that much on Rebounding. By adding TMAC and more JHo we make up a lot of what we lose. Dirk will pick up some of the slack as Jamision and walker were taking some of the rebounds Dirk would have gotten anyways. Juan is a decent if not good rebounder. DeClerk also is a decent if not good rebounder. Yes is should hurt us some rebounding, but not that much. And JHo could surprise us all and change even that.

kingrex
12-08-2003, 11:44 AM
I've gotta say your swaying me a little bit here LRB. Like I said getting McGrady is very attractive, but I still think the 5 "all-stars" we have now is better than a big 3 with Dirk, Nash & McGrady (wait did I really mean that, I think I do).

Well, each side has good points but I still think the 5 we have now will still get better this year.

Again, I don't make any trade unless it addressess our needs for a big man, otherwise we would still be in the same boat albeit with a better 2 guard.

LRB
12-08-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by: kingrex
I've gotta say your swaying me a little bit here LRB. Like I said getting McGrady is very attractive, but I still think the 5 "all-stars" we have now is better than a big 3 with Dirk, Nash & McGrady (wait did I really mean that, I think I do).

Well, each side has good points but I still think the 5 we have now will still get better this year.

Again, I don't make any trade unless it addressess our needs for a big man, otherwise we would still be in the same boat albeit with a better 2 guard.

It's a question of quantity over quality. This trade sacrifices quantity for quality. One think tot keep in mind is that there is only 1 basketball. Only 1 player can shoot at a time. Only 5 players can be on the court at a time.

Now will our Big 5 see much time on the court together? Looks like the answer is no. A good reason is because non of them are defensive standouts. The team that you put on the floor needs balance. It needs the glue guys as well as the superstars. So far our Big 5 are canceling each other out to some degree. They're all getting less points. They're all giving up minutes, but for the most part not being more effective on a per minute basis. They're all giving up shots. In short the sum of the Big 5 is not as great as they are individually. We're not getting a great synergy. This team is great for the regular season. We can afford to have injuries and not be that affected. But because of the length of time it's taking for the team to jell it will likely be next year before we can expect to receive major benefits from this. But the Big 5 is holding back developing JHo and Daniels. JHo especially could really be something special in this league.

Now if we can get 3 really great offensive players on the court along with a really gread defender and pretty good offensive player and Bradley and another decent center either by trade this year or FA next year, then we're set. TMac give us a penetration presence with explosiveness that we just don't have. This will open things up for Nash and Dirk. TMac upgrades our rebounding at the 2 spot. JHo get more minutes and JHo and dirk should still average as many rebounds as Dirk and Walker. Our 5 spot rebounding should improve a little because DeClerk is better than Eddie is not by much. Eddie, Juan, and Daniels coming off the bench won't give the same impact as Jamison, Howard, and Daniels but it shouldn't be all that much different. We'll lose lowpost scoring to gain penetration. But the nice thing is that we have arguably 2 of the best 6 offensive (and overall for that matter) players in the NBA on the floor at the same time. This is what championship teams are built around.

kingrex
12-08-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: kingrex
I've gotta say your swaying me a little bit here LRB. Like I said getting McGrady is very attractive, but I still think the 5 "all-stars" we have now is better than a big 3 with Dirk, Nash & McGrady (wait did I really mean that, I think I do).

Well, each side has good points but I still think the 5 we have now will still get better this year.

Again, I don't make any trade unless it addressess our needs for a big man, otherwise we would still be in the same boat albeit with a better 2 guard.

It's a question of quantity over quality. This trade sacrifices quantity for quality. One think tot keep in mind is that there is only 1 basketball. Only 1 player can shoot at a time. Only 5 players can be on the court at a time.

Now will our Big 5 see much time on the court together? Looks like the answer is no. A good reason is because non of them are defensive standouts. The team that you put on the floor needs balance. It needs the glue guys as well as the superstars. So far our Big 5 are canceling each other out to some degree. They're all getting less points. They're all giving up minutes, but for the most part not being more effective on a per minute basis. They're all giving up shots. In short the sum of the Big 5 is not as great as they are individually. We're not getting a great synergy. This team is great for the regular season. We can afford to have injuries and not be that affected. But because of the length of time it's taking for the team to jell it will likely be next year before we can expect to receive major benefits from this. But the Big 5 is holding back developing JHo and Daniels. JHo especially could really be something special in this league.

Now if we can get 3 really great offensive players on the court along with a really gread defender and pretty good offensive player and Bradley and another decent center either by trade this year or FA next year, then we're set. TMac give us a penetration presence with explosiveness that we just don't have. This will open things up for Nash and Dirk. TMac upgrades our rebounding at the 2 spot. JHo get more minutes and JHo and dirk should still average as many rebounds as Dirk and Walker. Our 5 spot rebounding should improve a little because DeClerk is better than Eddie is not by much. Eddie, Juan, and Daniels coming off the bench won't give the same impact as Jamison, Howard, and Daniels but it shouldn't be all that much different. We'll lose lowpost scoring to gain penetration. But the nice thing is that we have arguably 2 of the best 6 offensive (and overall for that matter) players in the NBA on the floor at the same time. This is what championship teams are built around.

Masterful agrument, LRB. It happens rarely, but I have come around on this argument. Oddly enough the hinge was Josh Howard. I like this player a lot. I think his skills on both sides of the court is what impressess me most. I also like Daniels, but to a lesser degree.

I'd also hate to lose Fin because of my own sense of loyalty to certain players, but like I said McGrady is an upgrade to Fin.

I guess, what I'm saying is logically, I can see this trade being better for the Mavs, but emotionally, I still want to see these 5 guys make this work. Oh well, I guess in this day and age you can't get too attached to any player.

XERXES
12-08-2003, 12:25 PM
Do we really want to rely on the core components of a team on a 19 game losing streak to improve our team?

kingrex
12-08-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by: XERXES
Do we really want to rely on the core components of a team on a 19 game losing streak to improve our team?

If part of that core has the upside of McGrady, then I say yes.

LRB
12-08-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by: kingrex

Masterful agrument, LRB. It happens rarely, but I have come around on this argument. Oddly enough the hinge was Josh Howard. I like this player a lot. I think his skills on both sides of the court is what impressess me most. I also like Daniels, but to a lesser degree.

I'd also hate to lose Fin because of my own sense of loyalty to certain players, but like I said McGrady is an upgrade to Fin.

I guess, what I'm saying is logically, I can see this trade being better for the Mavs, but emotionally, I still want to see these 5 guys make this work. Oh well, I guess in this day and age you can't get too attached to any player.


Kingrex, I have a lot of the same feelings. I'd really hate to see Fin go and I'd love to see these 5 guys make it work. I had to think on this one quite a while before I formed an opinion.

And JHo was what swung it for me as well. He's still raw, but every time I see him I get sooooooo excited about the potential he shows. And I haven't see such a defender on the Mavs, ever. The kids got all the potential to be a superstar, doesn't mean that he will, but I'm betting he'll be a star and most likely at least an allstar.

One things for sure, we still have almost 2 weeks before this can even possibly go down.

Also, if we do make the trade, look for Orlando to start tearing it up in the Leastern conference.

Dirkenstien
12-08-2003, 02:19 PM
here are a few reasons this trade is great for us.

1) allows Dirk to play in his natural position
2) gives us the athleticism we need in McGrady to push to the hole and create open shots for Dirk outside
3) makes our team younger
4) gets rid of the log jam at the 4
5) allows room for JHo to flourish into the player we all believe he can be
6) The lakers are going to be hard to beat this year regardless; this trade gives us advantage over them and the majority of the league in the future considering that we would have two of the top 10 players in the league.

also..how long before Hill's contract is up? ..im sure once its over that may create more space to sign the center we need to acquire via FA.

and wasnt orlando pretty high on Walker last year...or was that just Doc Rivers?

Dooby
12-08-2003, 02:43 PM
"Best five on the floor" rule. This roster isn't much different than the beginning of the 2001-02 season.

Juwan and Dirk at the forwards; Bradley at Center; McGrady at SG; and Nash at PG. Sorry, I am underwhelmed. McGrady is better than Finley and Current Dirk better than Younger Dirk. But, I don't see why you do it for the here and now. Longterm core of McGrady and Dirk, but you still need to add a lot of pieces to the puzzle.

LRB
12-08-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by: Dooby
"Best five on the floor" rule. This roster isn't much different than the beginning of the 2001-02 season.

Juwan and Dirk at the forwards; Bradley at Center; McGrady at SG; and Nash at PG. Sorry, I am underwhelmed. McGrady is better than Finley and Current Dirk better than Younger Dirk. But, I don't see why you do it for the here and now. Longterm core of McGrady and Dirk, but you still need to add a lot of pieces to the puzzle.

Dooby, I'd go with Nash, TMac, Josh Howard (Not Juwan), Dirk, and Shawn. I do think that it is a lot different than the 2001-2002 season.

uberfan
12-08-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
The other day I suggested some changes that could be made to "fix" the Mavericks. This is the second installment of "The Solution", and it involves a mammoth trade that I think would turn the Mavericks into legitimate title contenders -- now, and in the years to come.



Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)

Dallas receives: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -4.9 ppg, -4.7 rpg, and -0.8 apg.

Orlando trades: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)

Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +4.9 ppg, +4.7 rpg, and +0.8 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

+++

We'd have to wait until Dec 20th for the various trade restrictions to clear

Here's your new roster:

Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan - Najera
Josh Howard
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk


And if you want to take it even one step further, you deal Najera for Mihm and Sundov.

Mihm - Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan
Josh
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk


Thoughts are welcome...

Interesting, but you knew I was going to tweak it a little, didn't you?

Cleveland trades: SF Ricky Davis (16.5 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.9 apg in 37.2 minutes)
PF Chris Mihm (7.9 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 18.2 minutes)
Cleveland receives: C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -6.8 ppg, -1.5 rpg, and -3.0 apg.

Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)
Dallas receives: SF Ricky Davis (16.5 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.9 apg in 18 games)
PF Chris Mihm (7.9 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 18 games)
PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 2 games)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 16 games)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 17 games)
Change in team outlook: +2.9 ppg, -3.2 rpg, and +2.7 apg.

Orlando trades: PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11.0 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +3.9 ppg, +4.7 rpg, and +0.3 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Numbers show Oralndo comes out looking pretty good. Cleveland moves Davis without losing any size. In fact, they gain a good vet in Howard. Mavs have their team set for the next two seasons. People like TAW, Fortson and Ricky Davis get exposed to the expansion draft.

We'd still have to wait until Dec 20th for the various trade restrictions to clear

Here's your new roster:

Mihm - Bradley - Fortson
Nowitzki - Najera - Fortson
Josh Howard - Ricky Davis - TAW (when healthy)
McGrady - Davis - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk

Hill ( best 6th man on IL award winner). Steffanson - IL. Garrity - IL

Sorry, I need to tweak a little more. I want to move Delk and Garrity on somewhere. We have too many players otherwise.

As long as we are looking for the best alternatives for us, here's my second tweak, though I am not sure Knicks would do it. We buy out Ward.

Dallas trades: PG Tony Delk (8.6 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.8 apg in 20.3 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -8.6 ppg, -2.9 rpg, and -0.8 apg.

New York trades: PG Charlie Ward (9.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.7 apg in 27.1 minutes)
New York receives: PG Tony Delk (8.6 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.8 apg in 14 games)
PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 2 games)
Change in team outlook: 0.0 ppg, -0.6 rpg, and -4.4 apg.

Orlando trades: PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11.0 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, and -0.5 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 04:12 PM
Can't possibly respond to everybody, so I'll just respond to the most recent...


Originally posted by: Dooby
"Best five on the floor" rule. This roster isn't much different than the beginning of the 2001-02 season.

Juwan and Dirk at the forwards; Bradley at Center; McGrady at SG; and Nash at PG. Sorry, I am underwhelmed. McGrady is better than Finley and Current Dirk better than Younger Dirk. But, I don't see why you do it for the here and now. Longterm core of McGrady and Dirk, but you still need to add a lot of pieces to the puzzle.

Dirkenstein hit on a lot of them, but I disagree with your assessment that this team isn't that much different than the 2001-2002 team.

I like the trade because:

1) It gives you 3 of the top 15 players in the league.
2) It gives you two young superstars.
3) It eliminates some of the shot distribution problems the Mavs are having and will inevitably continue to have.
4) It makes the team (at least arguably) better defensively.
5) It establishes who the scorers are (McGrady, Dirk, Nash) and who the roleplayers are (Josh Howard, Juwan Howard, Bradley, Najera, Best, Delk).
6) It sets you up for the next 7-10 years.

This trade doesn't beat the Lakers this year (for the record, I'm not sure that trade exists). But it puts you in a better position, IMO, to beat them next year. And the next. And the next.

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 04:26 PM
Here's your new roster:

Mihm - Bradley - Fortson
Nowitzki - Najera - Fortson
Josh Howard - Ricky Davis - TAW (when healthy)
McGrady - Davis - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk

Hill ( best 6th man on IL award winner). Steffanson - IL. Garrity - IL

Sorry, I need to tweak a little more. I want to move Delk and Garrity on somewhere. We have too many players otherwise.

I don't like Ricky Davis, but I'd be fine with this trade. I covet Mihm, so getting him without giving any more is obviously enticing to me.

I really like the thought of adding Ostertag in the offseason as well...

Ostertag - Mihm - Bradley
Nowitzki - Najera
Howard - Davis
McGrady - Davis
Nash - Best

That's a good, solid, deep bench with an improved defensive starting lineup.

kg_veteran
12-08-2003, 04:30 PM
uber - I forgot to ask. Why would Cleveland do your proposed trade?

uberfan
12-08-2003, 04:41 PM
'Cuz I wanted them to so we would get better.

If they want to move Ricky Davis as rumored, they gain an experienced veteran leader in Howard to help with the younger players. DeClerq gives them so more size to take Mihm's place.

Have you seen the latest rumors of a trade between Cavs and Memphis? Can't trust them because they come out of Chicago papers, but interesting. Rumor is:

Battier, Swift, Jake, Outlaw, Dickerson to Cavs.

Z, Davis, Miles to Grizzlies.

Psychedelic Fuzz
12-08-2003, 04:46 PM
I said before that this trade is growing on me, but if the objective is to beat the fakers next year or the year after, someone had to point out that we are going to be in a pretty good position after this year anyway. Malone is not the average 40 year old, but he's still 40 and it WILL catch up to him eventually, same with Payton. You have to figure they won't stick around long if they get the rings anyway, and once they leave, we'll see the same fat, whiny, disinterested shaq we know and love...plus that other thing the lakers will have to deal with later in the year
Meanwhile, we have two fantastic young forwards, one of whom just might be the most gifted offensive player in the league, a point guard who is hitting the prime of his career and two young guards oozing potential.

Stressboy
12-08-2003, 04:52 PM
LRB,

I just think that any rookie, especially one that is an energy player is only good for 20-25 minutes a night. The Refs will give no love to the guy for 1-2 seasons and we could not depend on him for 30-35 like you need for a starter. Down the road this trade pays off, but not this year. Also, the biggest issue you would have trying to trade with Orlando, is they would want Josh Howard instead of AJ. Fin/Walker/Josh Howard would give them much more cap flexibility. I'm sure they think as we all do that, Josh is probably going to be as good as Jamison down the road. He could be better with his defense.

Nash/McGrady/Jamison/Dirk/Bradley(now you really have something for this year) Najera/Fortson/Danials/Best/DeClercq off the bench.

Lou/Fin/Josh Howard/Walker/J Howard only 2 max contracts and 1 is only for this year and the next. They will probably get a lottery pick out this year unless this team were to just destroy the east. It would be best for them to wait until the deadline to ensure as bad a record as possible.

Uberfan,

If you are going to get Cleveland involved, with all the Max contracts being thrown around, then I think you have to put Z into the mix. Would Cleveland want Walker, Jamison or Finley with Juwan Howard for Davis and Z. They really need some good veteran leadership and I think Fin with Juwan would help now and down the road.

Orlando gets: R. Davis, Walker, Josh Howard, Jamison
Cleveland gets: Finley, Juwan Howard
Dallas gets: McGrady, Grant Hill, Big Z

Lineups:

Orlando
PGTyronn Lue/Rod Strickland
SG Ricky Davis/Keith Bogans
SF Antawan Jamison/Josh Howard/Donnell Harvey
PF Antione Walker/Drew Gooden
C Andrew DeClercq/Zaza Pachulia

Cleveland
PG LeBron James/Kevin Ollie
SG Finley/Darius Miles/Wagner
SF Juwan Howard/Ira Newble/Jason Kapono
PF Carlos Boozer
C Chris Mihm/Diop

Dallas
PG Steve Nash/Travis Best
SG Tracy McGrady/Tony Delk/Danials
SF Eduardo Najera/Grant Hill(yea right)
PF Dirk Nowitzki/Danny Fortson
C Zydrunas Ilgauskas/Shawn Bradley

We would be back to sqare 1 on the SF spot unless McGrady started there and we played Delk or Danials at the 2, but we would have improved the 2 and 5 while giving up some depth and youth. I think if you start putting a third franchise in the trade, the odds of pulling this kind of trade off goes way up. Hey if Grant Hill actually played a full season, you would be the best team in the NBA for a short while. I still think the best thing to do is play the big 5 together as much as possible to see if it will work with Josh Howard coming off the bench. The Lakers only true weakness right now is at the 3 and any lineup where we don't dominate that matchup is really one we can't use to beat them. I guess having T-Mac cancel out Kobe would make it a pretty equal matchup. You move Danials, Najera and anyone else on bench to try and keep Josh Howard. Then you put him at the 3 in the lineup above and you are rocking.

Stressboy

thebac
12-08-2003, 04:52 PM
KG trade:

I think that talentwise, it's not too unfair a trade, certainly not outrageous like some trades that have been suggested before. The Mavs would have to be crazy to pass it up. If you have a shot at one of T-Mac, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, KG (well, maybe T-Mac wouldn't be the first of the group you'd take), you'd have to do it, especially if, at the end of the day, you still KEEP YOUR TWO BEST PLAYERS. Anyone suggesting the Mavs wouldn't do this would have to be a crazy homer (or just a big AJ, AW, Fin fan--like the Dirk fans who wouldn't trade Dirk for Duncan straight up).

As has been pointed out, you don't normally trade a superstar player for several good players, and I think that could be a hindrance for Orlando. However, AW and Fin have been all-stars, and both AJ and AW are still young, and are just entering their primes. They are not merely "good" players.

However, and this is where the trade breaks down, the salaries are horrible. All Mavs players in the trade make max salaries. None of them is worth a max salary. ORL is not in a situation where they've got their stars locked up and don't have to worry about the luxury tax b/c their owner will spend as much as it takes. If they take on AJ, AW, and Fin, and plan on keeping the three, they will be at the salary cap without having a Dirk caliber player. Otoh, T-Mac is more than worth his salary, DeClerq and JHo make about what they're worth, while Hill is obviously not worth it.

In addition, I would think that those three would contend for a chance to represent the East in the finals, but they'd never win, and with those salaries, they could never add more great players (except via the draft). As long as they keep T-Mac, they can still blow up the team and rebuild around him, he's still young.

Finally, considering that each of the Mavs players individually wouldn't be worth much (look what the Mavs got them for, save Fin), why would they be worth so much more when bundled together (except for taking on Hill's salary)?

uber's trade:

Cleveland won't do it. They downgrade tremendously in talent without fulfilling any needs, and I don't think they're dumping any salaries, either. They're basically getting rid of two players who are positives with respect to salary (i.e., make less than they should considering their performance/potential), and getting two players who are relatively neutral with respect to salary and who are worse. It's as if they're partaking in the trade just to improve the Mavs.

(ORL obviously won't, either. See above.)

Stew3636
12-08-2003, 05:00 PM
I personally like just shipping antoine and fin for hill and tracy, and if orlando has reason to believe tracy will jet in the offseason they would do it. This is also coming from a big antawn jamison fan however.

uberfan
12-08-2003, 05:29 PM
Hill facing 5th surgery and possibility of retirement. Orlando is better off holding on to him than making the trade as proposed. If he retires they would get cap relief much sooner (unless Walker opts out which is not likely).

I just don't see Z as a help to this team, unless you are willing to change to a half-court style offense. Ilike Mihm better than Z at this time for a number of reasons aleady discussed elsewhere.

The reality is that the best option for the Mavs is to stay with what we have. If all here are willing to conced that this trade proposal does not vault you past LAL this year, then start the Big 5 and hope to get off to a fast start against the better teams. Rotate in our solid bench guys when we need defensive stops.

Next year, after the expansion draft, pick up the other pieces needed in FA, mostly another center. There are several available who can help us then.

SaltwaterChaffy
12-08-2003, 06:56 PM
I love the idea of this trade. It seems to work out for both teams in terms of talent. I would love to have T-Mac here, and I think we could challenge right now for the championship, but certainly would be in contention for the next 5 years.

But something seems askew. Maybe I missed it while scrolling through the thread. If so, someone point it out to me.

Why would Orlando take on these contracts? They would be stuck with 3 max player deals. AW's expires in a year and a half, but AJ's and Fin's last another 5 or so years, correct? Why would this be acceptable in their eyes?

LRB
12-08-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by: Stew3636
I personally like just shipping antoine and fin for hill and tracy, and if orlando has reason to believe tracy will jet in the offseason they would do it. This is also coming from a big antawn jamison fan however.

Personally I'd like to be able to hand a bank clerk 3 5's and get a 20 in return. I just don't plan on that happening. The same would be true with Orlando. It's all 3 that KG proposed on it's not happening. Maybe we could finagle a minor additional concession out of Orlando, but not including Jamison is not a minor concession. Not going to happen if we leave him out.

LRB
12-08-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by: uberfan
Hill facing 5th surgery and possibility of retirement. Orlando is better off holding on to him than making the trade as proposed. If he retires they would get cap relief much sooner (unless Walker opts out which is not likely).

I just don't see Z as a help to this team, unless you are willing to change to a half-court style offense. Ilike Mihm better than Z at this time for a number of reasons aleady discussed elsewhere.

The reality is that the best option for the Mavs is to stay with what we have. If all here are willing to conced that this trade proposal does not vault you past LAL this year, then start the Big 5 and hope to get off to a fast start against the better teams. Rotate in our solid bench guys when we need defensive stops.

Next year, after the expansion draft, pick up the other pieces needed in FA, mostly another center. There are several available who can help us then.


Even if Hill's salary goes off the books, Orlando still doesn't have that much cap room. Certainly not to get the caliber of players we'd be offering.

LRB
12-08-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by: Stressboy
LRB,

I just think that any rookie, especially one that is an energy player is only good for 20-25 minutes a night. The Refs will give no love to the guy for 1-2 seasons and we could not depend on him for 30-35 like you need for a starter. Down the road this trade pays off, but not this year. Also, the biggest issue you would have trying to trade with Orlando, is they would want Josh Howard instead of AJ. Fin/Walker/Josh Howard would give them much more cap flexibility. I'm sure they think as we all do that, Josh is probably going to be as good as Jamison down the road. He could be better with his defense.

Nash/McGrady/Jamison/Dirk/Bradley(now you really have something for this year) Najera/Fortson/Danials/Best/DeClercq off the bench.

Lou/Fin/Josh Howard/Walker/J Howard only 2 max contracts and 1 is only for this year and the next. They will probably get a lottery pick out this year unless this team were to just destroy the east. It would be best for them to wait until the deadline to ensure as bad a record as possible.



Rooks can and have gotten 30 to 35 minutes per game. But Jamison isn't even getting that, so we don't have to have him come in with that much. Besides it's not like we're going to win the championship this year. So we make the trade for next year. Either we get a new coach, or we keep waiting for Shaq to get old and retire, or just injured, so we can make a strong run. Heck even if something happens this year, we're not necessarily any worse off than before. TMac could be just the explosive penetrator and scorer that this team needs to push them over the top. I like the players we have now, but I don't like the team. We have possibly more talent now overall, but it's much more diltued. I like our chances with a condensed talent with this trade.

Mavs Rule
12-08-2003, 09:43 PM
I would love to have T-mac, but this trade has alot of downside for the mavs IMO.

We lose all depth and would have no bench at all with the exception of Juwan. That is going to put tremendous pressure on the starters. Having Juwan Howard back on the team is not attractive at all. He is a matador, and with him, our second team would be LUCKY just to keep pace with the opponent's bench.

We lose the increased rebounding we have been experiencing. Dirk would have to revert to last years 10 boards/game to keep us competitive.

I don't think Josh would be ready to take this kind of responsibility this soon, and could be detrimental to his long-term growth. Plus as a starter he would hurt us in shooting percentage immediately IMO, unless he toned down his number of shots/minute. He also might hurt us in the playoffs with his inexperience short-term.

What if T-mac bolts once his contract is up? Then we are left with a huge hole that there will be no way to fill. While unlikely, we could drop to possibly a non-playoff team, since everyone would key on Dirk and Steve.

This still doesn't address our lack of a good center.

That said, I would like like to have another penetrator who can also dish other than Nash . It would open up Dirk unbelievably! But, I don't see how the few positives will outweigh the negatives. I would think Orlando would jump on this trade, but I would expect to see reservation from the Mavs. After all, they have lost 19 in a row for a reason.

Max Power
12-08-2003, 11:44 PM
Walker currently gets 36.9 minutes - 17.2 ppg and 10.3 boards
Finley currently gets 38.4 minutes - 16.3 ppg and 4.7 boards
Jamison currently gets 29.2 minutes - 14.4 ppg and 6.7 boards
Total 104.5 minutes - 47.9 ppg and 21.7 boards

Dirk currently gets 35.1 minutes - 19.2 ppg and 7.3 boards. There is no reason to assume that Dirk can't resume last year's production of 39.0 minutes, 25.1 ppg and 9.9 boards. An increase of 3.9 minutes, 5.9 ppg, and 2.6 boards

McGrady currently gets 39.5 minutes - 24.8 ppg and 6.3 boards. He would have the same minutes and production with the Mavs

Juwan currently gets 33.7 minutes - 14.2 ppg and 6.9 boards. He would probably get cut to 28.5 minutes or so which would be 12.0 ppg and 5.6 boards

Josh currently gets 15.9 minutes - 6.4 ppg and 4.7 boards. He would probably get increased to 24.0 minutes or so which would be 9.6 ppg and 8.4 boards. An increase of 8.1 minutes, 3.2 ppg, and 3.7 boards

The planned additions and changes would be 80 mintues, 45.9 ppg & 18.2 boards

That leaves another 24.5 minutes to add 2.0 ppg and 3.5 boards. Even TAW could do THAT.

Jeremiah
12-08-2003, 11:51 PM
I'd like to see TMac in Dallas, it'd be pretty cool. He'd give us a slashing, posting up, jumpshooting superstar that would put even more butts in the seats. He might just be the answer to the Mavs not having a center and winning a championship. Dirk and Tmac and Nash would make a pretty scary threesome.

I don't however, think #5 is ready for a full game every game. 20 min max per. That potential that is so obvious now, I don't think would be playing nearly a full game every game...but that's besides the point, I'm sure Nellie could make it work by using Delk or Best, or the former #5...which, I, btw, think played well when he was here, and wouldn't mind having back.

Back to the trade. I think it'd be a steal for the Mavs and I'd vote for it. There's one thing though that I think some in support of it are missing. If Tmac comes, you can forget seeing the offense run through Dirk. It'll go through Tmac, and he'll be jordan with Dirk playing pippen. That'll happen because Nellie will make it happen, and Tmac will relish that role. I've no problem with that, though.

StupidDannyAInge
12-09-2003, 12:31 AM
Tracy Mcgrady doesn't mind sharing the ball with the likes of his teammates because they are a bunch of no names in Orlando. If one of them started getting more attention then him (Like Vince Carter got in Toronto)
you wouldn't see him passing the ball or being a good teammate.
There are more to trades then just getting rid of people you don't like.

If you got Mcgrady you might as well say goodbye to Nash and Dirk because I am sure they wouldn't want to play for a team where the new guy was a ball hog. This is exactly what Tracy would be if he came here and had to share the spotlight with Nash and Dirk.

Fah Q
12-09-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by: StupidDannyAInge
Tracy Mcgrady doesn't mind sharing the ball with the likes of his teammates because they are a bunch of no names in Orlando. If one of them started getting more attention then him (Like Vince Carter got in Toronto)
you wouldn't see him passing the ball or being a good teammate.
There are more to trades then just getting rid of people you don't like.

If you got Mcgrady you might as well say goodbye to Nash and Dirk because I am sure they wouldn't want to play for a team where the new guy was a ball hog. This is exactly what Tracy would be if he came here and had to share the spotlight with Nash and Dirk.

Antoine Walker is doing what you said McGrady would do by taking the amount of shots he is. Have you heard any of the Mavs complain?

BTW - I would do this trade in a split second.

jayC
12-09-2003, 12:50 AM
1) We are only 19 games into the season. Its a little early to talk about breaking up the team. To top it off Dirk has missed the past five games and nash has missed parts of two others.

That being said if you told me we didn't have to give up nash or Dirk to get T-Mac. Duh! Id do it in a heartbeat. As good as Jamison and Walker are they both are tweeners not really a powerforward not really a small forward. As much as Nellie loves Walker you don't get a chance to trade for a top five player often. What ever we get from Juwan and DeClerq is really icing on top.

thewillis12
12-09-2003, 12:57 AM
i would never do this trade. doing this trade shows that you are not a true mavs fan. everyone agrees that dirk is the franchise player. bring in mcgrady and you have another ball hog who wants to shoot20 - 25 times. this would NOT imporve us.

thewillis12
12-09-2003, 12:57 AM
i would never do this trade. doing this trade shows that you are not a true mavs fan. everyone agrees that dirk is the franchise player. bring in mcgrady and you have another ball hog who wants to shoot20 - 25 times. this would NOT imporve us.

Dirkenstien
12-09-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by: StupidDannyAInge
Tracy Mcgrady doesn't mind sharing the ball with the likes of his teammates because they are a bunch of no names in Orlando. If one of them started getting more attention then him (Like Vince Carter got in Toronto)
you wouldn't see him passing the ball or being a good teammate.
There are more to trades then just getting rid of people you don't like.

If you got Mcgrady you might as well say goodbye to Nash and Dirk because I am sure they wouldn't want to play for a team where the new guy was a ball hog. This is exactly what Tracy would be if he came here and had to share the spotlight with Nash and Dirk.


One of the reasons Doc Rivers pushed for letting Troy Hudson go in the offseason was because he felt Tmac needed to develope into the leader of the team and carry them on their shoulders, basically meaning Tmac passed up too much by not being selfish. T mac averaged about 6 assist per game last year whereas Walker averaged about 5 so if anything we get a player who is more likely to pass it up.

He's an incredible athlete that can drive to the hole and get to the foul line or dish it out to the perimeter where nash or Dirk would be waiting. Either way he's helping the team and creating the plays..i dont think anyone would overlook his contributions therefore reducing the probability that he would hate to co-exist with great NBA talent. In fact, considering how much he's been losing with Orlando he may actually prefer it. Oh, and when Tmac was with Toronto it was a completely different situation...he was still trying to get his name out and earn an honest paycheck...now obviously everyone in the league is aware of who he is and what he can do.

Dirkenstien
12-09-2003, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by: thewillis12
i would never do this trade. doing this trade shows that you are not a true mavs fan. everyone agrees that dirk is the franchise player. bring in mcgrady and you have another ball hog who wants to shoot20 - 25 times. this would NOT imporve us.

Another ball hog? ..we'd be shipping Walker, Finley, and Jamison out...meaning we'd have Dirk (not a ball hog) Nash..obviously not a ball hog, and McGrady who in my opinion is not a ball hog, also you have to consider as I have stated above that TMac statistically is more of a passer than Walker. The rest of the players on the court would definitely not be considered ball hogs..so where is your logic?

EricaLubarsky
12-09-2003, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by: XERXES
Do we really want to rely on the core components of a team on a 19 game losing streak to improve our team?

hehe that sounded a lot like the old addage

you can take players off a stinky team, but you cant get the stink out of the players

Simon2
12-09-2003, 08:53 AM
No way! That's basically McGRady for 3 good guys. He's good but he's not that good.


Originally posted by: kg_veteran
The other day I suggested some changes that could be made to "fix" the Mavericks. This is the second installment of "The Solution", and it involves a mammoth trade that I think would turn the Mavericks into legitimate title contenders -- now, and in the years to come.



Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)

Dallas receives: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -4.9 ppg, -4.7 rpg, and -0.8 apg.

Orlando trades: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)

Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +4.9 ppg, +4.7 rpg, and +0.8 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

+++

We'd have to wait until Dec 20th for the various trade restrictions to clear

Here's your new roster:

Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan - Najera
Josh Howard
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk


And if you want to take it even one step further, you deal Najera for Mihm and Sundov.

Mihm - Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan
Josh
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk


Thoughts are welcome...

Ummmmm Ok
12-09-2003, 09:06 AM
Would have to wait until the 20th before any trade went down
Antoine Walker Dallas Recently was traded 20th December, 2003
Juwan Howard Orlando Recently signed a contract 15th December, 2003
Scottie Pippen Chicago Recently signed a contract 15th December, 2003


Dallas trades:
PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)
Dallas receives:
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
SG Grant Hill (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Tyson Chandler (13.0 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1.0 apg in 28.6 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +4.1 ppg, +2.3 rpg, and -0.4 apg.

Orlando trades:
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
SG Grant Hill (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
Orlando receives:
PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Scottie Pippen (7.1 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.9 apg in 12 games)
PF Marcus Fizer (6.0 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.3 apg in 8 games)
Change in team outlook: +7.8 ppg, +7.6 rpg, and +3.4 apg.

Chicago trades:
SF Scottie Pippen (7.1 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.9 apg in 22.3 minutes)
PF Marcus Fizer (6.0 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.3 apg in 10.0 minutes)
PF Tyson Chandler (13.0 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1.0 apg in 28.6 minutes)
Chicago receives:
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: -11.9 ppg, -9.9 rpg, and -3.0 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED


I like this trade better for the Dallas standpoint. We would have a lineup of: Nash, McGrady, Josh H., Dirk, Chandler. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

Chicago has a logjam now at the pf/c Positions so why not just clean some of that up and get a real Scorer in Jamison. They would still have Davis and Curry to fill in at the Center position for the loss of Chandler.

Orlando is the catcher. They would lose McGrady and Howard, but get back Finley, Walker, Fizer, and Pippen. This is a very old lineup, but it will have lots of leadership. Lue, Finley, Pippen, Walker, and Gooden/Fizer would work out pretty good in the East.

p.s. As to KG's Proposal, Orlando would jump all over that trade. I just don't think Dallas would do that trade without addressing their need for a big man.

kg_veteran
12-09-2003, 09:41 AM
Psychedelic Fuzz and Stressboy - You hit on one thing about my trade. It REALLY starts
to pay off in the years to come. I think the team is just as good this year, but
it certainly makes the team better down the road.

thebac - I think you're right when you say any Mavs fan who says they wouldn't do this is a
crazy homer, but apparently we have a couple of crazy homers floating around on the board, because
I haven't seen unanimous support for my trade proposal. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

kg_veteran
12-09-2003, 09:42 AM
Ummm OK, no offense, but that trade proposal is a bit ridiculous. You couldn't get Chandler alone for Jamison. No way the Bulls also give up Pippen and Fizer.

Stressboy
12-09-2003, 10:22 AM
No one has really addressed my point that Orlando only does the trade with Fin/Walker/Josh Howard for T-Mac/Hill and they would probably want Najera to boot. I really think Josh Howard has the skills and the freakish build to be the next Pippen, so would you guys trade Finley/Walker/Pippen at age 24 for T-Mac and an awful contract?

I think you give up too much, but the good thing is that you could always trade McGrady away if it did not work. Also, who said that Grant Hills salary will come off soon? He plans on playing this year and I'm pretty sure that to retire, you have to be out for 1 full year and then most of the next year. I would say that Hill's contract is for at least this year and 2 more.

Stressboy

kg_veteran
12-09-2003, 10:54 AM
Stressboy, I see your point but disagree. I don't think they'd want Howard over Jamison at this point.

The huge salaries coming from Dallas, IMO, are the biggest reason the trade wouldn't happen.

jimmychipwood
12-09-2003, 11:08 AM
You know, if I was Orlando, I think I would do the trade for Fin/Walker/Howard/Najera/#1 pick next year for T-Mac/Hill.

But even that is not for sure. You have to remember, Fin is a bad contract as well. We take on Hill's, which is worse, but we give them Fin's. Walker's comes off the books soon, but with their point guard situation he would be a good addition to that team. Howard, Najera, and the #1 pick would give the Magic something to start the rebuilding process.

On our side, Hill might come back and give us a few games at the end of the season/playoffs.

Nash - Best - Daniels "Tie" - now "tie"
McGrady - Delk - Daniels "Mavs +1" - now "Lakers +3"
Jamison - McGrady, Steffanson, (Hill) "Mavs +1" - now "Mavs +1"
Nowitzki - Fortson "Mavs +3" - now "Mavs +3"
Bradley - Nowitzki, Fortson "Lakers +5" - now "Lakers +5"

It obviously leaves us with a short bench, but we matchup or are better than the Lakers at every position but one. See +/- to the Lakers in quotations. And when playoff time comes, it is our starters that make the difference. Plus, we put a team on the floor good at their positions.

kg_veteran
12-09-2003, 11:26 AM
You know, if I was Orlando, I think I would do the trade for Fin/Walker/Howard/Najera/#1 pick next year for T-Mac/Hill.

No point in considering this. This doesn't work under the CBA.

jimmychipwood
12-09-2003, 11:49 AM
I forgot to say T-Mac/Hill + cap fodder.

kg_veteran
12-09-2003, 12:24 PM
I don't know if I'd be as willing to do that deal. I like Howard a lot.

Dirkenstien
12-09-2003, 01:28 PM
There's no reason to tweak KG's deal, it works under the CBA and offers fairly equal players and talent to each team while in my opinion improves each teams current situation...its a great trade and even though I would like to see our current fab 5 work it out, I would enjoy seeing this trade happen even more

Stressboy
12-09-2003, 02:55 PM
The reason to tweak the trade is that it makes sense from an Orlando standpoint. They don't want 3 max contracts 2 of which are for 3 more years after this one. No one believes that Jamison or Finley is really a max player on the open market, just the Cuban market. If we could do the deal of Fin/Walker/Najera/Danials for T-Mac/Hill/Cap Filler then I would not blink. I really like Danials and Najera, but neither have the upside of Howard. Again, if you get a third party involved, then you might be able to get some more young players in the mix, but I think Fin/Walker/Najera/Danials + a pick would make them consider it if t-mac wants out.

Nash, T-Mac, Howard, Jamison, Dirk as the best 5 would be down right nasty.

Stressboy

LRB
12-09-2003, 04:35 PM
Stressboy I'd probably do your trade depending on what the filler from dallas was. It would be better if you could go to realGM and put what you see the filler being.

Still I don't see this as being more enticing to Orlando. With KG's scenario they get 3 all star level players for 1 super star. Under yours they only get 2 plus 1 player with some potential and a very decent spare. I think Orlando comes out better and would sooner bite on KG's trade. Cap space is nice, but they realistically aren't going to get more talent than Jamison IMO. So I do your trade if they insist, but I wouldn't expect it.

kg_veteran
12-09-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by: Stressboy
The reason to tweak the trade is that it makes sense from an Orlando standpoint. They don't want 3 max contracts 2 of which are for 3 more years after this one. No one believes that Jamison or Finley is really a max player on the open market, just the Cuban market. If we could do the deal of Fin/Walker/Najera/Danials for T-Mac/Hill/Cap Filler then I would not blink.

I'd do your modified deal in a heartbeat.

Here's a trade that works under the cap...

Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Eduardo Najera (3.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.5 apg in 15.7 minutes)
SG Marquis Daniels (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.3 minutes)
Dallas receives: SG Grant Hill (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.3 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11.0 minutes)
C Steven Hunter (4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.2 apg in 18.5 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -10.1 ppg, -8.8 rpg, and -2.6 apg.

Orlando trades: SG Grant Hill (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.3 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11.0 minutes)
C Steven Hunter (4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.2 apg in 18.5 minutes)
Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Eduardo Najera (3.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.5 apg in 19 games)
SG Marquis Daniels (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 12 games)
Change in team outlook: +10.1 ppg, +8.8 rpg, and +2.6 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED


New roster:

Dallas:

Nowitzki - Bradley - Hunter
Jamison - Fortson
Howard - Garrity
McGrady - Delk
Nash - Best


Orlando:

DeClerq - Najera
Howard - Gooden - Harvey
Walker - Giricek
Finley - Daniels
Lue -



If they're strictly looking at talent, Orlando will want my proposed trade. However, if they're trying to maintain some financial flexibility, perhaps your deal might make a bit more sense.

I'm game for either one.

kg_veteran
12-09-2003, 09:51 PM
Here's one more proposed scenario. For the record, I still don't think they give up McGrady without receiving three really good players in return, but nonetheless...

Dallas trades: SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)
SF Eduardo Najera (3.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.5 apg in 15.7 minutes)
Dallas receives: SF Grant Hill (3.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.5 apg in 15.7 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
C Steven Hunter (4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.2 apg in 18.5 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -4.7 ppg, -4.8 rpg, and +0.8 apg.

Orlando trades: SF Grant Hill (3.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.5 apg in 15.7 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
C Steven Hunter (4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.2 apg in 18.5 minutes)
Orlando receives: SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
SF Eduardo Najera (3.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.5 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +4.7 ppg, +4.8 rpg, and -0.8 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED


New roster:

Nowitzki - Bradley - Hunter
Walker - Fortson
Howard - Daniels
McGrady - Delk
Nash - Best

I like that one A LOT, even though it's the least likely of the three I've posted.

Jeremiah
12-09-2003, 10:17 PM
Send 'em Best as well. they could use a point guard.

Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
PG Travis Best (3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 15.9 minutes)
Dallas receives: PG Grant Hill (3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 15.9 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
C Steven Hunter (4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.2 apg in 18.5 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -7.0 ppg, -5.8 rpg, and -4.2 apg.

Orlando trades: PG Grant Hill (3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 15.9 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
C Steven Hunter (4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.2 apg in 18.5 minutes)
Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
PG Travis Best (3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +7.0 ppg, +5.8 rpg, and +4.2 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Dallas and Orlando being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Dallas and Orlando had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

kg_veteran
12-09-2003, 10:28 PM
Clearly, I'd do that too.

Jamisonite
12-09-2003, 10:35 PM
i dont understand why you guys would do this...Tmac is not worth that. GHills contract is on the book for 4 more years. So we pay a guy the maximum to sit on the freakin bench. And Steven Hunter...who the hell is he. I keep Fin and Walker...No Tmac for me.

Jamisonite
12-09-2003, 10:59 PM
Ok i read a trade rumor on NBAWIRE.com between Clev and Memphis so i threw this together

Cleveland trades: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (16.1 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 32.8 minutes)
SF Ricky Davis (16.5 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.9 apg in 37.2 minutes)
SF Darius Miles (9.5 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 2.7 apg in 27.6 minutes)
PF Chris Mihm (7.9 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 18.2 minutes)
PG Kevin Ollie (4.5 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.0 apg in 17.8 minutes)
Cleveland receives: SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
PG Tony Delk (8.6 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.8 apg in 20.3 minutes)
C Lorenzen Wright (10.9 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 0.9 apg in 25.3 minutes)
SF Shane Battier (10.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 1.3 apg in 25.6 minutes)
PF Stromile Swift (8.9 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 0.6 apg in 19.9 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +0.5 ppg, -2.4 rpg, and -6.1 apg.

Dallas trades: SG Marquis Daniels (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.3 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
PG Tony Delk (8.6 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.8 apg in 20.3 minutes)
Dallas receives: PF Chris Mihm (7.9 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 18 games)
PG Kevin Ollie (4.5 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Mike Miller (12.3 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 4.1 apg in 17 games)
SF Bo Outlaw (4.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 17 games)
Change in team outlook: +0.5 ppg, +8.1 rpg, and +3.9 apg.

Memphis trades: C Lorenzen Wright (10.9 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 0.9 apg in 25.3 minutes)
SF Shane Battier (10.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 1.3 apg in 25.6 minutes)
SF Mike Miller (12.3 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 4.1 apg in 31.5 minutes)
PF Stromile Swift (8.9 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 0.6 apg in 19.9 minutes)
SF Bo Outlaw (4.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 18.1 minutes)
Memphis receives: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (16.1 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 19 games)
SF Ricky Davis (16.5 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.9 apg in 18 games)
SF Darius Miles (9.5 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 2.7 apg in 19 games)
SG Marquis Daniels (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 12 games)
Change in team outlook: -1.0 ppg, -5.7 rpg, and +2.2 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Jamisonite
12-09-2003, 11:03 PM
c Dirk,Mihm,Bradley,Najera
pf Walker,Dirk,Jamison,Mihm,Najera,outlaw
Sf Howard,Jamison,Walker,Miller
SG Miller,Howard,ollie
PG Nash,ollie,Best

thats what wed look like

rakesh.s
12-10-2003, 02:04 AM
memphis is stacked at 2,3,4 with a logjam for minutes..i don't think they're interested in acquiring davis or miles

Jamisonite
12-10-2003, 10:37 AM
this trade rids them of some of that blockage. Getting rid of Miller Battier Wright and Swift

kg_veteran
12-10-2003, 10:41 AM
Jamisonite, I don't see how your proposed trade helps anyone but Memphis.

Jamisonite
12-10-2003, 11:52 AM
it helps us alot. Especially for this season. We loose Delk and Finley (Daniels doesnt play) and we get a good big body with potential in Mihm a true back up point guard in Ollie and a good shooter in Miller. Miller could thrive in our system and hes used to being on the bottom of the totem poll

kg_veteran
12-10-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by: Jamisonite
it helps us alot. Especially for this season. We loose Delk and Finley (Daniels doesnt play) and we get a good big body with potential in Mihm a true back up point guard in Ollie and a good shooter in Miller. Miller could thrive in our system and hes used to being on the bottom of the totem poll

Ollie and Outlaw are crap. They would (or should) be released immediately if this trade were made.

So you're down to Finley for Mihm and Miller. I think we can do better for Finley if we're intent on getting rid of him, which I'm not.

Male30Dan
12-10-2003, 12:05 PM
Yeah, like for Curry... Of course that is another thread!!!

Lets see... Center we have always needed, or big white stiff with slightly above average talent and a shooter???

I will NOT go with the latter in this case!

Jamisonite
12-10-2003, 01:19 PM
Im rather high on Ollie...hes defiently better than Best or Delk

Male30Dan
12-10-2003, 01:24 PM
I cant say that he is better than either... I think Best and Delk are both about as talented as Ollie regarding defense, which is what we need the most... The only way Ollie is better than either is if he will NOT shoot, as both of these two do too much of!!!

Either way, no trade!

LRB
12-10-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Originally posted by: Stressboy
The reason to tweak the trade is that it makes sense from an Orlando standpoint. They don't want 3 max contracts 2 of which are for 3 more years after this one. No one believes that Jamison or Finley is really a max player on the open market, just the Cuban market. If we could do the deal of Fin/Walker/Najera/Danials for T-Mac/Hill/Cap Filler then I would not blink.

I'd do your modified deal in a heartbeat.

Here's a trade that works under the cap...

Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Eduardo Najera (3.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.5 apg in 15.7 minutes)
SG Marquis Daniels (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.3 minutes)
Dallas receives: SG Grant Hill (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.3 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11.0 minutes)
C Steven Hunter (4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.2 apg in 18.5 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -10.1 ppg, -8.8 rpg, and -2.6 apg.

Orlando trades: SG Grant Hill (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.3 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11.0 minutes)
C Steven Hunter (4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.2 apg in 18.5 minutes)
Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Eduardo Najera (3.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 0.5 apg in 19 games)
SG Marquis Daniels (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 12 games)
Change in team outlook: +10.1 ppg, +8.8 rpg, and +2.6 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED


New roster:

Dallas:

Nowitzki - Bradley - Hunter
Jamison - Fortson
Howard - Garrity
McGrady - Delk
Nash - Best


Orlando:

DeClerq - Najera
Howard - Gooden - Harvey
Walker - Giricek
Finley - Daniels
Lue -



If they're strictly looking at talent, Orlando will want my proposed trade. However, if they're trying to maintain some financial flexibility, perhaps your deal might make a bit more sense.

I'm game for either one.


Yeah I'd do this one as well with no hesitation. But I still think your original trade would have a better chance KG.

LRB
12-10-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by: Jamisonite
Ok i read a trade rumor on NBAWIRE.com between Clev and Memphis so i threw this together

Cleveland trades: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (16.1 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 32.8 minutes)
SF Ricky Davis (16.5 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.9 apg in 37.2 minutes)
SF Darius Miles (9.5 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 2.7 apg in 27.6 minutes)
PF Chris Mihm (7.9 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 18.2 minutes)
PG Kevin Ollie (4.5 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.0 apg in 17.8 minutes)
Cleveland receives: SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
PG Tony Delk (8.6 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.8 apg in 20.3 minutes)
C Lorenzen Wright (10.9 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 0.9 apg in 25.3 minutes)
SF Shane Battier (10.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 1.3 apg in 25.6 minutes)
PF Stromile Swift (8.9 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 0.6 apg in 19.9 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +0.5 ppg, -2.4 rpg, and -6.1 apg.

Dallas trades: SG Marquis Daniels (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 6.3 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
PG Tony Delk (8.6 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.8 apg in 20.3 minutes)
Dallas receives: PF Chris Mihm (7.9 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 18 games)
PG Kevin Ollie (4.5 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Mike Miller (12.3 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 4.1 apg in 17 games)
SF Bo Outlaw (4.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 17 games)
Change in team outlook: +0.5 ppg, +8.1 rpg, and +3.9 apg.

Memphis trades: C Lorenzen Wright (10.9 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 0.9 apg in 25.3 minutes)
SF Shane Battier (10.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 1.3 apg in 25.6 minutes)
SF Mike Miller (12.3 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 4.1 apg in 31.5 minutes)
PF Stromile Swift (8.9 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 0.6 apg in 19.9 minutes)
SF Bo Outlaw (4.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.9 apg in 18.1 minutes)
Memphis receives: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (16.1 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 19 games)
SF Ricky Davis (16.5 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.9 apg in 18 games)
SF Darius Miles (9.5 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 2.7 apg in 19 games)
SG Marquis Daniels (3.8 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 12 games)
Change in team outlook: -1.0 ppg, -5.7 rpg, and +2.2 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED


I'd definitely pass on this trade. We pay too much for too little. Ollie and Outlaw are almost worthless. You can find better players in the CBA, so why not go there and get them instead of trading for them. Miller is decent, but he's nowhere near Fin's class. Mihm is a decent big man, but we could probably get him in FA next year or one almost as good w/o diluting our talent. Daniles is a steal for what we're paying him. I'll throw him in on a great for us trade, but not one that robs us blind on talent.

LRB
12-10-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by: Jeremiah
Send 'em Best as well. they could use a point guard.

Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
PG Travis Best (3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 15.9 minutes)
Dallas receives: PG Grant Hill (3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 15.9 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
C Steven Hunter (4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.2 apg in 18.5 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -7.0 ppg, -5.8 rpg, and -4.2 apg.

Orlando trades: PG Grant Hill (3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 15.9 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
C Steven Hunter (4.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.2 apg in 18.5 minutes)
Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
PG Travis Best (3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +7.0 ppg, +5.8 rpg, and +4.2 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Dallas and Orlando being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Dallas and Orlando had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Jeremiah this works fine for me. I still think KG's original trade proposal has the best chance to succeed with Orlando. But if the Orlando GM suggested this, then I'd go with it.

Speedy
12-10-2003, 08:54 PM
With all of this talk about McGrady, here (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1683091) is an article from ESPN. Pretty darn accurate imo.

Mavs Rule
12-10-2003, 10:46 PM
You don't give up three stars for T-mac, maybe two, but not three. If you can't do it with two don't do it. Yes, there is a danger with T-mac's attitude. But the biggest reason why you would never do KG's original trade is succinctly put in the ESPN chat with Tom Tolbert:


will (toronto): Is Juwan Howard really "the curse", everywhere hes been the team loses. Washington, Dallas, Denver, now Orlando. The team hasn't really changed from last year, its not like teams didnt play zone against Orlando last year either.

Tom Tolbert: I don't know if he's a curse! Good point though, actually. I don't know. Maybe he's like the tiki doll in the Brady Bunch. I'm not sure. You're right though, can't say it's all his fault, but you do make a point.

Muhahah!!! i/expressions/devil.gif

Jamisonite
12-10-2003, 11:56 PM
their team has changed in a big way...they lost darrel armstrong