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WayOutWest
12-17-2003, 03:38 PM
Jamison for Big Z? Funny that you can get paid to write and article about a RUMOR that was DENIED. Regardless I thought this might be of interest. I don't like the deal becuase Big Z has been criticized for his defense. Not too mention that the Mavs would be going down the road of other teams in trying to build a team to beat L.A. and S.A. with a similar type of team. That will not work because if you play the Lakers or Spurs game you will lose. I prefer the approach of the Mavs and Kings of trying to change the style of game to their strong points instead of trying to beat the Lakers and Spurs strenghts.

Anyway, here you go:


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10673738&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46370&rfi=6

Z trade rumor denied by Cavs

BOB FINNAN , Morning Journal Writer 12/17/2003

CLEVELAND -- Some observers think Monday's six-player trade might be a prelude to another deal for the Cavaliers.

Could the next step be trading center Zydrunas Ilgauskas?

Rumors swirled yesterday that the Cavaliers would deal the 7-foot-3 center to the Dallas Mavericks for power forward Antawn Jamison.

The Mavericks have been hot after Ilgauskas for at least a year.

Even though recently acquired Tony Battie is thought of as mostly a backup center, he could conceivably move into the starting lineup if Ilgauskas were dealt. DeSagana Diop, currently on the injured list after undergoing surgery on his right knee, could be the top reserve in that scenario. He won't be ready to return, though, until January.

Cavaliers coach Paul Silas said the idea of trading Ilgauskas was preposterous.

''I don't know where these rumors come from,'' he said. ''Z is a big part of this thing. We aren't actively looking to do anything right now. I certainly think this trade will help him.''

Silas was referring to the deal that acquired the 6-11, 240-pound Battie and small forwards Eric Williams and Kedrick Brown. The Cavaliers, who will host the Houston Rockets tonight, sent talented guard Ricky Davis, backup forward/center Chris Mihm, power forward Michael ''Yogi'' Stewart and a second-round pick to the Celtics.

Cavaliers general manager Jim Paxson said he's had a number of conversations with ''more than a handful of teams.''

''We could explore some other opportunities,'' he said.

Silas said the deal with Boston happened Monday afternoon after the team's shoot-around in Indiana.

''It just came up,'' he said. ''I was for it. There are always conversations. This is the only thing that came to fruition.''

He admitted the Cavaliers spoke to the Miami Heat. They were trying to pry either Eddie Jones or Caron Butler from the Heat.

''There had been conversations with Miami for a lot of things,'' Silas said. ''I don't want to answer that.''

Ilgauskas earns $13.5 million this year and $14.6 million in 2004-05. A quick peek at Jamison's deal would send up red flags on the cap-friendly Cavaliers.

He's making $11.3 million this year and $12.6 million next year. After this season, he still has four years and $57.9 million on his contract. He's a good player, but not that good.

The Cavaliers (6-18) must make a determination on Ilgauskas. If they're going to trade him, send him elsewhere now. If not, he'll become very attractive next year because his contract would then come off their salary cap.

Conventional thinking, however, says that the Cavaliers will wait a few weeks to see how the trade shakes out in Cleveland.

Once Ilgauskas becomes a free agent, he'll likely demand at least $10 million a season.

Meanwhile, none of the three new Cavaliers were available to meet with the Cleveland media yesterday before the late afternoon practice at Gund Arena.

Some in the Boston media watched the Battie situation closely. He's been troubled with bad knees and some speculated whether he could pass Cleveland's physical. Battie makes $4.4 million this year, followed by $4.8 million in 2004-05 and $5.2 million in 2005-06.

Williams, a physically tough player who gets after it defensively, makes $5.4 million this year and could be a restricted free agent this summer.

Perhaps the fact that he could come off the cap is appealing to the Cavaliers.

''He has to get a feel for us and us for him,'' Cavaliers general manager Jim Paxson said. ''My guess is, at the appropriate time, we might have that conversation (about extending his deal).''

Silas said the Cavaliers would take a wait-and-see approach with Williams.

''We'll see how it unfolds,'' he said. ''Hopefully, he'll play well for us. I think he will. We'll take a look at that at the end of the year.''

The Cavaliers were sending $12.3 million in salaries to Boston. They were taking back $11.6 million (Brown is making $1.8 million this year). Cleveland likely used a portion of the $1.8 million trade exception it received in the Jumaine Jones trade last summer from Boston.

They also sent the second-round pick they got from the Celtics in that trade back to Boston.

''Paul gets a couple of veteran guys that he knows what he'll get every night,'' Paxson said. ''He needed some good role players on the team. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction where we had to move Ricky. We did something that would help us.''

ŠThe Morning Journal 2003

grndmstr_c
12-17-2003, 03:49 PM
Ah, sportswriters. I share your opinion WOW. Trading for Ilgauskas would make us more traditional without otherwise improving the team. I'm not confident that would get it done, because we're not going to be able to do traditional with Z as well as the Spurs do with TD, or the Lakers do with Shaq. Better to follow the road less travelled, let the team gel, and pick up a defensively capable FA center in the offseason than make this trade.

EricaLubarsky
12-17-2003, 03:52 PM
did the mods get rid of the "trade and draft board" section?

WayOutWest
12-17-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
did the mods get rid of the "trade and draft board" section?

whooops. forgot.

kg_veteran
12-17-2003, 04:25 PM
Trading for Big Z makes no sense. Ilgauskas is poor defensively. Silas just recently chastised him publicly for that reason, and if my recall is correct, he benched him for that reason too.

I'm not saying the deal isn't "fair" from a talent/size standpoint; I'm simply saying that Ilgauskas doesn't fit what the Mavs are looking for if they do in fact trade Jamison.

Personally, at this point I'd like to see how Nelson's new rotation works out. If it works like I think it might, we can probably just try and sign Sabonis around March, then replace him with Ostertag in the offseason.

Max Power
12-17-2003, 04:38 PM
Why give away talent unless the upgrade at center is going to be better than next year's free agents? We probably aren't going to win it this year anyway.

Having said that I am ALL FOR trading away Jamison or Finley this season if we can get a major upgrade in talent - like a McGrady or a KMart.

kg_veteran
12-17-2003, 04:49 PM
I would not be shocked at all if Cuban was able to turn Jamison and parts into K-Mart before the trading deadline.

V
12-17-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by: Max Power
Why give away talent unless the upgrade at center is going to be better than next year's free agents? We probably aren't going to win it this year anyway.

Having said that I am ALL FOR trading away Jamison or Finley this season if we can get a major upgrade in talent - like a McGrady or a KMart.

Are you crazy? KMart is ok in the East... but he's a spare in the West.

He fights defensively... but he's not a "major upgrade" in talent. And where does he play... you want to trade for another PF?

grndmstr_c
12-17-2003, 04:55 PM
KMart is more than a spare in the West, IMO. Is he a clear talent upgrade over AJ? I don't think so. Would he fit our team better? I think so. Right now we're looking at a lineup with Dirk, and two PF/SF tweener types, with AJ more on the SF side of that fence. Trading AJ for KMart would give us Dirk, a tweener in AW, and a legit PF with good rebounding and shotblocking skills in KMart. It's the same philosophy we're hanging our hat on right now, just with slightly better player/position fits.

Max Power
12-17-2003, 04:57 PM
K-Mart is a major upgrade over Jamison defensively. I don't care if we have 6 PF types if they all have a different game. But we don't have a Brian Grant type or a K-Mart type - a rugged defensive player who will protect the paint.

I'd think seriously about trading Jamison and Finley for Grant and Jones. But no way Miami does it - they are looking to unload long-term contracts, not acquire them.

kg_veteran
12-17-2003, 05:08 PM
K-Mart's not a major upgrade over Jamison offensively, but he's definitely a major upgrade defensively. He gives you another legitimate shotblocking presence in the middle, can guard the other team's best forward, and has a nasty streak.

Nowitzki 38 - Bradley 10
Martin 38 - Walker 10
Walker 28 - Howard 20
Finley 35 - Howard 13
Nash 32 - Delk 16

I don't know what's not to like. If you had Bradley, Martin, Walker, and Howard on the floor, you'd be pretty imposing defensively.

V
12-17-2003, 05:13 PM
Maybe you're right... I haven't paid that much attention to Martin this year but his numbers are looking like he's made a marked improvement over last year. My problem with Martin has been that he wants to be considered among the elite players but his stats didn't bear that out:

Kenyon Martin
2003: 16.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.9 bpg, 47% shooting

And let's compare that to some other noteworthy power forwards in the NBA after they had completed their third seasons in the NBA.

Tim Duncan
Third Season: 23.2 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 0.9 spg, 2.2 bpg, 49% shooting

Chris Webber
Third Season: 23.7 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 5 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.6 bpg, 54% shooting

Kevin Garnett
Third Season: 18.5 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.7 spg, 1.8 bpg, 49% shooting

Karl Malone
Third Season: 27.7 ppg, 12 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.6 bpg, 52% shooting

Elton Brand
Third Season: 18.2 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1 spg, 2 bpg, 52% shooting

Dirk Nowitzki
Third Season: 21.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 2.1 apg, 1 spg, 1.2 bpg, 47% shooting

But this year Martin seems to have turned it on a little:

Kenyon Martin
Fourth Season: Martin 17.7 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.6 bpg, 50% shooting.

I changed my mind. I'd do Jamison for Martin.... and if Martin continues to improve he could be worth that max contract he's looking for!

Throw in Finley for Wallace for Ilgauskas for Finley & the Mavs are done. ;-)

grndmstr_c
12-17-2003, 05:17 PM
I wouldn't trade Finley and Jamison for Grant and Jones. Grant's a step down from AJ talent-wise, and not a shot-blocker. His strength is rebounding, and that's no longer a need. I like Jones, and you could make the argument that his game might be a better fit for this team than Finley's game (better at getting to the line), but Jones is older than Fin, his game is showing signs of slipping more than Fin's, and his contract isn't really much better.

EricaLubarsky
12-17-2003, 05:23 PM
K-mart has only been hyped because the East needs a superstar. He has been given every chance to rise to the occasion and hasn't. His two finals appearances do not prove he is a star of any calibre. He's just an overhyped Malik Rose who has a talented PG who makes him look better and a media backing.

V
12-17-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
K-mart has only been hyped because the East needs a superstar. He has been given every chance to rise to the occasion and hasn't. His two finals appearances do not prove he is a star of any calibre. He's just an overhyped Malik Rose who has a talented PG who makes him look better and a media backing.

hmm. Good point. I changed my mind again.

DOWN WITH MARTIN!

kg_veteran
12-17-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
K-mart has only been hyped because the East needs a superstar. He has been given every chance to rise to the occasion and hasn't. His two finals appearances do not prove he is a star of any calibre. He's just an overhyped Malik Rose who has a talented PG who makes him look better and a media backing.

Hasn't risen to the occasion? He's one of the biggest reasons the Nets went to the Finals the last two years. I'm not saying he's a superstar, but he'd be a better fit for this team than Jamison.

grndmstr_c
12-17-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
K-mart has only been hyped because the East needs a superstar. He has been given every chance to rise to the occasion and hasn't. His two finals appearances do not prove he is a star of any calibre. He's just an overhyped Malik Rose who has a talented PG who makes him look better and a media backing.

Here's the bottom line with KMart. If, on your team, he is the go-to guy in the half-court set you're in trouble. He's a capable scorer, but not an all-star in that respect. He is, however, a good defensive player, a good rebounder, a good shot-blocker, and a nightmare on the break, and he is still improving. I don't think he's a max money type player like he thinks he is, but then again, the Mavs have 4 max money players right now, and I only think one of them is worth that much (Dirk).

Max Power
12-17-2003, 05:52 PM
I don't think KMart is a max money player but he is worth Raef money - $8-10M a year.

Offensively he is not a superstar but he's one of the best defensive big men in the league and he is definitely the most available. And don't forget that he can run which means he is a better fit on a Nellie team than a Big Z.

LRB
12-17-2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I would not be shocked at all if Cuban was able to turn Jamison and parts into K-Mart before the trading deadline.

Give me KMart anyday over Big Z. Even being considerably shorter and lighter, I like KMart's D of post bigmen better than Big Z's. I would still see KMart as a PF, but I'd rather play Dirk at the 5 and have to give him help if we had a shutdown 4 defender than play Dirk at the 4 and have him be average at best and then have to give Big Z help.

PiusDoe
12-17-2003, 06:25 PM
Dallas trades:
SF Antawn Jamison
(14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes) *
PG Travis Best
(3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 15.9 minutes)
Dallas receives:
SF Zoran Planinic
(2.7 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 1.1 apg in 8.6 minutes) *
C Alonzo Mourning
(8.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.9 minutes)*
PF Kenyon Martin
(17.3 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 2.3 apg in 34.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +10.3 ppg, +3.6 rpg, and +0.5 apg.


New Jersey trades:
SF Zoran Planinic
(2.7 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 1.1 apg in 8.6 minutes) *
C Alonzo Mourning
(8.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.9 minutes)*
PF Kenyon Martin
(17.3 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 2.3 apg in 34.1 minutes)
New Jersey receives:
SF Antawn Jamison
(14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games) *
PG Travis Best
(3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: -10.3 ppg, -3.6 rpg, and -0.5 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

If we were to trade with the Nets. This would be the trade. New Jersey gets a superstar to help sell their team (I don't know if superstar outweighs contract in terms of attractiveness). We get a defensive inside presence in Martin, and pick up a young big point guard (swingman) with huge upside in Zoran Planinic which sweetens the deal otherwise made ugly by taking on Mourning's contract. Byron Scott, for some reason, doesn't like the kid, therefore the Nets would probably even dig getting Best in the deal as they've been trying everyone and their grandmother at the backup point guard spot. The Nets aren't doing so well right now so its either going to be a trade or a coaching change that plays the scapegoat. If you want to do this, we need to do it before Scott gets fired. Groove.

Simon2
12-17-2003, 08:54 PM
Nellie wouldn't be able to stand KMart celebration antics especially the one where shows off his tatoo.


Originally posted by: PiusDoe
Dallas trades:
SF Antawn Jamison
(14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes) *
PG Travis Best
(3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 15.9 minutes)
Dallas receives:
SF Zoran Planinic
(2.7 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 1.1 apg in 8.6 minutes) *
C Alonzo Mourning
(8.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.9 minutes)*
PF Kenyon Martin
(17.3 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 2.3 apg in 34.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +10.3 ppg, +3.6 rpg, and +0.5 apg.


New Jersey trades:
SF Zoran Planinic
(2.7 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 1.1 apg in 8.6 minutes) *
C Alonzo Mourning
(8.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.9 minutes)*
PF Kenyon Martin
(17.3 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 2.3 apg in 34.1 minutes)
New Jersey receives:
SF Antawn Jamison
(14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games) *
PG Travis Best
(3.5 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 2.4 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: -10.3 ppg, -3.6 rpg, and -0.5 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

If we were to trade with the Nets. This would be the trade. New Jersey gets a superstar to help sell their team (I don't know if superstar outweighs contract in terms of attractiveness). We get a defensive inside presence in Martin, and pick up a young big point guard (swingman) with huge upside in Zoran Planinic which sweetens the deal otherwise made ugly by taking on Mourning's contract. Byron Scott, for some reason, doesn't like the kid, therefore the Nets would probably even dig getting Best in the deal as they've been trying everyone and their grandmother at the backup point guard spot. The Nets aren't doing so well right now so its either going to be a trade or a coaching change that plays the scapegoat. If you want to do this, we need to do it before Scott gets fired. Groove.

LRB
12-18-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by: Simon2
Nellie wouldn't be able to stand KMart celebration antics especially the one where shows off his tatoo.



Then Nellie would just have to go.

V
12-18-2003, 11:45 AM
From ESPN Insider

Zydrunas on the block? There continues to be a lot of debate whether the Cavs actually are shopping Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Two GMs told Insider that, in recent conversations they've had with Cavs GM Jim Paxson, Ilgauskas, LeBron James and Carlos Boozer were deemed untouchable by Paxson. But with coach Paul Silas continuing to grow frustrated with his team's lack of a defensive effort, and in the ongoing spirit of the Cavs' effort to remake the team in LeBron's image, it seems only a matter of time before the team concludes that Z must go, too.

There's already a lot of chatter out of Miami that the Heat were offered Ilgauskas in a package for Eddie Jones. Trading Ilgauskas for another guard with too many years left on his contract doesn't make a lot of sense for Cleveland. What they need is either an unselfish, all-star-caliber player or young players with great work ethics who won't break the bank.

Another rumor that surfaced in the media on Tuesday had the Mavs offering Antawn Jamison to the Cavs for Ilgauskas. That makes more sense for the Cavs, as Jamison is the type of hard-working, "good guy" who would complement what James does on the floor. Don Nelson has coveted Ilgauskas for years, but he told reporters Wednesday night the Mavs aren't currently involved in any serious trade talks.

I've mentioned this once before, but the trade that makes the most sense for Cleveland might be with the Grizzlies. Unlike the other two deals, this isn't a rumor. There's no evidence the two teams are talking. But Jerry West is still cruising for a center, and Ilgauskas is probably the best center on the block. Ilgauskas and Darius Miles for Stromile Swift, Shane Battier, Bo Outlaw, Jake Tsakalidis and Troy Bell makes a lot of sense for both teams. It would give the Grizzlies the big-time center they covet, a talented, but disappointing athlete in Miles whom Hubie Brown can work with, and it would thin out a very crowded roster in Memphis.

The Cavs would get three of the hardest workers in the business in Battier, Outlaw and Bell, and a young, athletic player in Swift who appears at the moment to have more of an upside than Miles.

V
12-18-2003, 01:10 PM
From David Aldridge

The Mavericks aren't excited about any of the bigs who might be available, at least not for either Walker or Antawn Jamison. That includes Kurt Thomas -- who, a Mavs man points out, would still be an undersized center in the West -- and Zydrunas Ilgauskas, who is very much on the trading block again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=aldridge_david&id=1689197

grndmstr_c
12-18-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by: V
From David Aldridge

The Mavericks aren't excited about any of the bigs who might be available, at least not for either Walker or Antawn Jamison. That includes Kurt Thomas -- who, a Mavs man points out, would still be an undersized center in the West -- and Zydrunas Ilgauskas, who is very much on the trading block again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=aldridge_david&id=1689197

Outstanding news about those two, at least. I'll take no trade over a bad trade.

LRB
12-18-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Originally posted by: V
From David Aldridge

The Mavericks aren't excited about any of the bigs who might be available, at least not for either Walker or Antawn Jamison. That includes Kurt Thomas -- who, a Mavs man points out, would still be an undersized center in the West -- and Zydrunas Ilgauskas, who is very much on the trading block again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=aldridge_david&id=1689197

Outstanding news about those two, at least. I'll take no trade over a bad trade.

Amen!!! Neither the walking piece of crap know as Kurt Thomas nor Biz are worth either Jamison or Walker. I certainly hope this report is true and we don't end up trading for either piece of garbage.

Jeremiah
12-18-2003, 10:35 PM
I'll take Z. I'm not sure if he's an on the ball shot blocker like KMart, or an weakside shotblocker like Raef, but he get nearly 2 per on 30 mpg. I'll take that. He scores inside, and he rebounds at a Bradley clip. He's not going to play much defense, but he'll block shots. I can live with that. Is he better than Tag? I don't know, I know he'll score, and while we're not hurting for scoring, it'd be nice to have a dedicated post scorer. Put me down as a guy that would welcome Z. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if Cleveland welcomed AJ as a 4 that they could use. He'd get his 20 and 7 there, and Boozer would get the rest of the minutes and still put up numbers.

I'll take this one:

Cleveland trades: SF Jason Kapono (4.9 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 0.4 apg in 11.8 minutes)
C Zydrunas Illgauskas (15.5 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.6 apg in 31.9 minutes)
Cleveland receives: PG Travis Best (3.3 ppg, 1.2 rpg, 2.1 apg in 14.3 minutes)
SF Eduardo Najera (3.5 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 0.4 apg in 14.8 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.5 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.1 apg in 29.3 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +0.9 ppg, +2.4 rpg, and +1.6 apg.

Dallas trades: PG Travis Best (3.3 ppg, 1.2 rpg, 2.1 apg in 14.3 minutes)
SF Eduardo Najera (3.5 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 0.4 apg in 14.8 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.5 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.1 apg in 29.3 minutes)
Dallas receives: SF Jason Kapono (4.9 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 0.4 apg in 15 games)
C Zydrunas Illgauskas (15.5 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.6 apg in 25 games)
Change in team outlook: -0.9 ppg, -2.4 rpg, and -1.6 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Cleveland and Dallas being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Cleveland and Dallas had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.


We'll get a C and a rookie shooter. I don't like Kapono, but that's because he went to UCLA. He's a damn good shooter, and I'll take him.

Dirkenstien
12-19-2003, 12:54 AM
I would take Z for Jamison or Walker..my guess is if cleveland did make such a trade then they would take Jamison.

If nothing else we get a true center with great size that is dedicated to the low post game.

MightyToine
12-19-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by: Dirkenstien
I would take Z for Jamison or Walker..my guess is if cleveland did make such a trade then they would take Jamison.

If nothing else we get a true center with great size that is dedicated to the low post game.



Walker would definitely have a big Target to pass the Ball to for an easy Dunk IN THE HALFCOURT if Big Z was here.... Hmmm.....



Still, though.....Very encouraging to hear that Dallas isn't looking to trade ANYONE right now...

StupidDannyAInge
12-19-2003, 11:11 PM
Kenyon Martin is a thug with a bad attitude (making fun of Zo about something he can die from) and
he falls asleep when the playoff series is on the line.