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Chicago JK
12-27-2003, 10:21 AM
Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (17.4 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.0 apg in 37.7 minutes)
SF Eduardo Najera (3.3 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 0.4 apg in 13.7 minutes)
PG Tony Delk (6.2 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.8 apg in 16.8 minutes)
PG Travis Best (3.2 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 2.0 apg in 13.6 minutes)
Dallas receives: SF Keith Van Horn (15.0 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 34.5 minutes)
C Kurt Thomas (11.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.1 apg in 34.1 minutes)
C Milos Vujanic (11.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.1 apg in 34.1 minutes)
C Maciej Lampe (11.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.1 apg in 34.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -4.0 ppg, -0.1 rpg, and -4.6 apg.

New York trades: SF Keith Van Horn (15.0 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 34.5 minutes)
C Kurt Thomas (11.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.1 apg in 34.1 minutes)
C Milos Vujanic (11.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.1 apg in 34.1 minutes)
C Maciej Lampe (11.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.1 apg in 34.1 minutes)
New York receives: PF Antoine Walker (17.4 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.0 apg in 28 games)
SF Eduardo Najera (3.3 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 0.4 apg in 28 games)
PG Tony Delk (6.2 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.8 apg in 23 games)
PG Travis Best (3.2 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 2.0 apg in 25 games)
Change in team outlook: +4.0 ppg, +0.1 rpg, and +4.6 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

******************
Mavs give up the best player in the trade, but get Kurt Thomas to guard 4's in the fourth quarter. They pick up Van Horn who has been a disappointment but could play pretty well in Dallas' free flowing offense. The key to the trade though is Dallas get the two young foreigners. Isiah doesn't look like he wants to wait for the young foreigners to develop. I haven't seen either play. Milos is one of the highest rated foreign players who has decided not to come over this year and may not be over next year. Lampe is a long term project.

Isiah gets a name player in Antoine while getting rid of Thomas, who can be a free agent next year, and Van horn, who is not a Thomas type player.

************
note I am not very good at doing these trades, but I thought this one is interesting despite the Mavs giving up the best player in this trade.

Bayliss
12-27-2003, 10:38 AM
We would have to sign a point guard immediately.

The big problem with the trade is essentially we traded away Walker for Lampe. That is a huge jump.

Van Horn is worthless. Some say he's a poor man's Dirk. It is semi-true. The problem is Van Horn hasn't improved one iota since he came into the league. In fact he has regressed.

Kurt Thomas might be able to play the center spot but he is still too small. I give him credit for being tough. But he survives at center because he can get away with it in the East. In the West we can't get away with it. It is the same reason Wallace survived it last year. If Wallace/Thomas had to play Yao and Shaq four times each... then the coach would immediately move them to power forward and get someone just a little taller.

Milos is too far removed the NBA. He's already at the threshhold of being "too old." Then when he joins an NBA team it will take him at least 2 years from being decent. No one has that time and energy to stash away players like that. Manu was an exception. And Manu already had a semi-complete game. Does this kid? And point guard is the toughest position to make the leap... whether it be Europe or from college.

Lampe intrigues me. It looks to me like he could be a Keith Van Horn with heart. But he's got to get time on the court to develop. Last year Skita looked awful. This year he can't even get off the bench. In order to develop Lampe is going to need time. The Mavs had that with Dirk because at the time of his arrival we were terrible. Now we don't have that same luxury of waiting for a young player to develop. (That is the big reason why we chose Howard.)

kg_veteran
12-27-2003, 11:36 AM
Projects are nice; what the Mavs need are guys who can contribute now.

I don't know that acquiring Thomas really improves your interior defense that much at all. Walker is about the same size as Thomas, and MUCH more skilled. Thomas is a hard-nosed dude, but as one of the Insider articles recently suggested, NY needs to think more along the lines of Delk/Wahad if they want to deal Thomas to Dallas.

I just don't see Donnie and Cuban dealing Walker unless they're getting equal value in terms of talent; thus, I don't think Walker will be dealt.

Whether they take the same view regarding Jamison remains to be seen.

LRB
12-27-2003, 11:54 AM
I'd pass on this one. While I'm not thrilled with Walker as backup PG or Delk and certainly not Best, this trade leaves us with only out of position rookies as backup PG or activating one which hasn't played yet. I don't think it makes us that strong at center, although we would be better off than we are now. Just not a good trade.

sike
12-27-2003, 12:28 PM
I make no trade that does not give the Mavs what they want at the 5!

jayC
12-27-2003, 12:39 PM
You are insane. You don't trade walker for knick spares.

sike
12-27-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by: jayC
You are insane. You don't trade walker for knick spares.

you only trade Walker for an above average 5......

madape
12-27-2003, 01:03 PM
Sorry, I've got to disagree with the statement that Van Horn is worthless. The guy is a near seven footer who can score from the perimiter, can handle the rock, take people off the dribble, rebound, defend a little bit... He dropped 28 points and 13 boards on a good Grizzlies frontcourt last night. He's not Dirk, but he's not crap. He'd be a great player here. If we can take advantage of Isiah Thomas, let's do it. I don't think Walker for Van Horn is a good trade. But maybe we can send them Najera, Delk, and Fortson for Van Horn and Doleac. I'd do that trade for sure

LRB
12-27-2003, 01:07 PM
But maybe we can send them Najera, Delk, and Fortson for Van Horn and Doleac. I'd do that trade for sure

Boy Ape you really want to take advantage of Isaiah don't you? i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

That would be a great trade for us and I'd do it as well.

sike
12-27-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

But maybe we can send them Najera, Delk, and Fortson for Van Horn and Doleac. I'd do that trade for sure

Boy Ape you really want to take advantage of Isaiah don't you? i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

That would be a great trade for us and I'd do it as well.

you do that in a heartbeat...but Thomas would not.....would he?i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif

LRB
12-27-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: LRB

But maybe we can send them Najera, Delk, and Fortson for Van Horn and Doleac. I'd do that trade for sure

Boy Ape you really want to take advantage of Isaiah don't you? i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

That would be a great trade for us and I'd do it as well.

you do that in a heartbeat...but Thomas would not.....would he?i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif


Well considering that Thomas has a reputation of being a racist and w're trading 3 nonwhite players for 2 white players, you never know. Not to mention that Fortson probably impressed him with his bad boy play against Phoenix earlier this year.

Nash13
12-27-2003, 02:40 PM
So Dallas will have one more small forward and one less PF/C. Van Horn would hardly get any minutes past Walker, Jamison, and Dirk.

madape
12-27-2003, 03:51 PM
Doleac is a pretty decent center. As a seven footer with shooting range and athleticism, he'd be a great weapon in Nelson's system. Throw him into a rotation with a shotblocker like Shawn and we'd be much better off than we are currently. Think of the flexibility we'd have with our lineups. I'd take Doleac over Fortson any day of the week.

Van Horn may not get 40 minutes a game with Jamison, Dirk, and Walker on the team, but he'd still be a major contributor. At least we'd have some real size in our frontcourt for once. And can we go ahead and say that if the Mavs aquired Van Horn without giving up either Jamison or Walker, we would easily have the deepest frontcourt rotation in the NBA?

Is that a bad thing?

V
12-27-2003, 04:31 PM
Doleac & Van Horn for Delk, Fortson, and Najera is a no brainer if you're a Mavs fan....

Of course, imagine how the league would view this deal... Mavs trade for ANOTHER soft SF with PF size & poor defense.

It doesn't really matter thought.... Knicks don't do this deal. Van Horn has three years left while Fortson runs 4 years & Najera 5 years.

That said, I expect Van Horn will be traded in a similar deal (talent wise) for more cap friendly contracts.

Nash13
12-27-2003, 10:02 PM
Ape, I know Doleac and Van Horn are good players, and I think both are extremely underrated. It's just that when someone proposes a trade, i imagine how Nellie would play the players. Doleac and Dirk will hardly ever be on the court at the same time, and in general, every Dirk fan would be disappointed after a while because Dirk's minutes will take a decline because of Van Horn. We'd also have no back up point guard, which is better than what we have now.

I would like it better if we'd traded WALKER instead of Najera, and got Mike Sweetney Maybe.

Imagine this lineup:

Nash/Daniels/Steffanson
Finley/Howard
Jamison/Van Horn/Wahad
Dirk/Sweetney/Najera
Doleac/Bradley

I like Van Horn/Jamison than Walker/Jamison. Call me crazy.

MightyToine
12-28-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: jayC
You are insane. You don't trade walker for knick spares.

you only trade Walker for an above average 5......


Walker OR JAMISON for an above average 5, that is. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

MightyToine
12-28-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by: V
Doleac & Van Horn for Delk, Fortson, and Najera is a no brainer if you're a Mavs fan....

Of course, imagine how the league would view this deal... Mavs trade for ANOTHER soft SF with PF size & poor defense.

It doesn't really matter thought.... Knicks don't do this deal. Van Horn has three years left while Fortson runs 4 years & Najera 5 years.

That said, I expect Van Horn will be traded in a similar deal (talent wise) for more cap friendly contracts.

Since when should the Mavs care what the LEAGUE thinks??? i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif

If the deal is on the table, YOU DO IT!!

MightyToine
12-28-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by: Nash13
Ape, I know Doleac and Van Horn are good players, and I think both are extremely underrated. It's just that when someone proposes a trade, i imagine how Nellie would play the players. Doleac and Dirk will hardly ever be on the court at the same time, and in general, every Dirk fan would be disappointed after a while because Dirk's minutes will take a decline because of Van Horn. We'd also have no back up point guard, which is better than what we have now.

I would like it better if we'd traded WALKER instead of Najera, and got Mike Sweetney Maybe.

Imagine this lineup:

Nash/Daniels/Steffanson
Finley/Howard
Jamison/Van Horn/Wahad
Dirk/Sweetney/Najera
Doleac/Bradley

I like Van Horn/Jamison than Walker/Jamison. Call me crazy.


Yeah well....The Mavs don't care what either you or I LIKE or DON'T LIKE. i/expressions/rolleye.gif


I think they'd rather get rid of the garbage that is Best/Delk and get Van Horn/Ward over here. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

V
12-29-2003, 02:36 PM
From ESPN

... He's not the only one who seems to have Isiah Thomas' confidence. Keith Van Horn, who Thomas coveted when he was the head man of the Raptors, put together back to back 28 point games this weekend. He's also averaging 10.5 rpg and is shooting 63 percent from the field.

"The first day, he spoke to us about having confidence in each other, supporting each other," Van Horn told the New Jersey Star Ledger. "I think we all heard him."

Van Horn said it was a rededication on the defensive end that made the difference for him.

"I did the exact opposite," Van Horn said. "I put pressure on myself in terms of focusing on defense and rebounding, and offensively I didn't even think about what I was going to do in the game -- I just let it go and play off instincts. It's paid off."

sike
12-29-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by: MightyToine

Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: jayC
You are insane. You don't trade walker for knick spares.

you only trade Walker for an above average 5......


Walker OR JAMISON for an above average 5, that is. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

how about this MT, any trade you make that involves a member of the big five must be for an above average 5......better?

MightyToine
12-30-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: MightyToine

Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: jayC
You are insane. You don't trade walker for knick spares.

you only trade Walker for an above average 5......


Walker OR JAMISON for an above average 5, that is. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

how about this MT, any trade you make that involves a member of the big five must be for an above average 5......better?



Hey that's fine by me. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

sike
12-30-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by: MightyToine

Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: MightyToine

Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: jayC
You are insane. You don't trade walker for knick spares.

you only trade Walker for an above average 5......


Walker OR JAMISON for an above average 5, that is. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

how about this MT, any trade you make that involves a member of the big five must be for an above average 5......better?



Hey that's fine by me. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif


good, it is my life's goal to be approved by MTi/expressions/rolleye.gifi/expressions/moon.gif i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Walkerforthree
12-31-2003, 12:16 PM
"Van Horn is worthless. Some say he's a poor man's Dirk. It is semi-true. The problem is Van Horn hasn't improved one iota since he came into the league. In fact he has regressed."

You pissed off the Horn i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

He has been playing insanely good ball lately

MightyToine
12-31-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: MightyToine

Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: MightyToine

Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: jayC
You are insane. You don't trade walker for knick spares.

you only trade Walker for an above average 5......


Walker OR JAMISON for an above average 5, that is. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

how about this MT, any trade you make that involves a member of the big five must be for an above average 5......better?



Hey that's fine by me. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif


good, it is my life's goal to be approved by MTi/expressions/rolleye.gifi/expressions/moon.gif i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif



Aren't you glad? i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

sike
12-31-2003, 06:00 PM
yep, 03 can now be called a good year!i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif


Aren't you glad?