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kg_veteran
12-29-2003, 03:29 PM
After spending the day talking about how we need to tweak the roster and not make any major changes, I had to throw this one out there for public consumption. I was inspired by a post on LMF:

Dallas trades: PG Tony Delk (6.1 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 0.8 apg in 16.4 minutes)
PF Antoine Walker (17.3 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.1 apg in 37.7 minutes)
Dallas receives: C Scot Pollard (1.6 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.2 apg in 10.8 minutes)
SF Ron Artest (17.3 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.9 apg in 37.5 minutes)
PF Austin Croshere (5.3 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 12.2 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +0.8 ppg, -0.6 rpg, and -1.4 apg.

Indiana trades: C Scot Pollard (1.6 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.2 apg in 10.8 minutes)
SF Ron Artest (17.3 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.9 apg in 37.5 minutes)
PF Austin Croshere (5.3 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 12.2 minutes)
Indiana receives: PG Tony Delk (6.1 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 0.8 apg in 24 games)
PF Antoine Walker (17.3 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.1 apg in 29 games)
Change in team outlook: -0.8 ppg, +0.6 rpg, and +1.4 apg.


Bird is said to be in love with Walker's game and competitiveness (this from LMF).

New Dallas team:

Bradley - Pollard - Fortson
Nowitzki - Croshere
Artest - Jamison
Finley - Howard
Nash - Daniels - Best

Would you do it?

Walkerforthree
12-29-2003, 03:34 PM
yes, yes, yes

Walkerforthree
12-29-2003, 03:36 PM
artest has issues. But he is a shutdown defender and actual very good on O, and more efficent then Walker, plus it makes us start a center and put dirk at pf. Pollard is a good tough guy, and chroshere is some instant O off the bench.

dirno2000
12-29-2003, 03:37 PM
I'm normally the last guy to nix a trade over attitude issues sine most of the time they’re over blown. That being said, I want no part of Ron Artest. As I said in another post, I really think this guy has mental issues. He's been to counseling for anger mgt and he needs to make it a continuing thing. Plus Nelson hates the guy.

Also, I don't think Pollard addresses our center problem. I've always thought he was a spare who played well against us since we're soft down low. A lot of people on this board thought he'd play well in the East, but that Hasn’t been the case.

Lastly, doesn't Artests' skill set overlap with that of Fin and Howard?

uberfan
12-29-2003, 03:41 PM
I would rather do this.

Dallas trades: PF Danny Fortson (3.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 0.2 apg in 12.0 minutes)
PG Travis Best (3.2 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 2.0 apg in 13.6 minutes)
Dallas receives: C Scot Pollard (1.6 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.2 apg in 10.8 minutes)
PG Jamaal Tinsley (2.0 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 12.0 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -3.1 ppg, -2.5 rpg, and -0.2 apg.

Indiana trades: C Scot Pollard (1.6 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.2 apg in 10.8 minutes)
PG Jamaal Tinsley (2.0 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 12.0 minutes)
Indiana receives: PF Danny Fortson (3.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 0.2 apg in 23 games)
PG Travis Best (3.2 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 2.0 apg in 25 games)
Change in team outlook: +3.1 ppg, +2.5 rpg, and +0.2 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Nash/Tinsley/ Daniels
Finley/Howard/Daniels
Jamison/Howard/Walker
Walker/Dirk/Najera
Dirk/Bradley/Pollard

sike
12-29-2003, 03:43 PM
so many people cry about bringing in Sheed Wallace.....but Ron Artest is a mental case......

plus what is the idea of Artest starting above Jamison.....

Man, when will Jamison ever get to start???? I just want to see him in that starting three or four spot....

I guess I'd do it, but what about the danger of Artest craziness(does he not pose the same problems as Sheed?) and why not start Jamison?

kg_veteran
12-29-2003, 03:49 PM
I don't think I'd trade for Artest; just wanted to throw it out there.

I like uber's scenario if you could convince Indy to do it...

Nowitzki 18 - Bradley/Pollard 30
Walker 28 - Nowitzki 20
Jamison 30 - Walker 7 - Howard 11
Finley 35 - Howard 13
Nash 32 - Tinsley 16

I haven't watched Tinsley much lately so I'll plead ignorant as to how he looks; he has dropped out of favor in Indiana. That said, I'd take a hot six pack for Travis Best right about now, and based on the height and banging ability I'd take Pollard over Fort.

mavs_afroman
12-29-2003, 03:49 PM
I don't like and I think Jamison would have a heart attack if Walker left and he still didn't get to start. Anyway, I think we already have our Artest in the making in Josh Howard. So I wouldn't take on the attitude problems when we already have a similar player.

Secondly, that lineup would not be the one that Nellie played. Bradley and Pollard would both probably rot on the bench and Nellie would start Jamison at PF and Dirk at C. Dirk gets about 38 minutes leaving 10 for Bradley and Pollard to split.

Lastly, I don't really want to use Walker or Jamison in a trade unless it gets us a solid center.

kg_veteran
12-29-2003, 03:50 PM
Lastly, I don't really want to use Walker or Jamison in a trade unless it gets us a solid center.

I agree with this.

sike
12-29-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Lastly, I don't really want to use Walker or Jamison in a trade unless it gets us a solid center.

I agree with this.

I have said this from the beginning!

but would Pollard not constitute a solid center? or do you consider him more of a 4?i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif

kg_veteran
12-29-2003, 04:58 PM
A solid center should be someone capable of starting consistently.

If Pollard can't win the starting job in Indiana, I have to assume he'd be a backup here as well.

sike
12-29-2003, 05:13 PM
from what we know about his game(active on the glass, decent passer, pretty tough defender) he might fit well in Dallas......you must remember The Pacers may not be looking for the same things in their 5 as the Mavs...they have O'Neal....that probably changes what you need...

I dont mind Pollard's game.....but I honestly have not kept up with his game this year, so maybe he fell apart...I would be none the wiser....

LRB
12-29-2003, 05:31 PM
I like Uber's trade better. Although it could potentially be interesting to see Artest go Sprewell on Nellie. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Drbio
12-29-2003, 05:35 PM
Artest overslept a practice today and is some hot water in Indy.....again.


If you could get him to screw his head on right, he is a talent.

sike
12-29-2003, 05:52 PM
as previously stated..."mental case"....
Artest overslept a practice today and is some hot water in Indy.....again.

aexchange
12-29-2003, 06:57 PM
i would make this deal in a second and not even blink.

i dont see why we wouldnt pull this deal if it wasn't offered to us. i dont know why people continue to say we have an artest in our squad in josh howard.

whats wrong with adding another shut down defender is can keep defenses honest with his offense? who cares if he's a bit looney tunes. his contract is good enough to keep teams interested in his potential. when you consider people like rip hamilton are getting paid more than him, i ship walker off in a new york second.

like wfor3 said earlier, this forces us to start a scrappy center who can grab some rebounds and knows his role. absolutely fantastic deal.

Walkerforthree
12-29-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by: aexchange
i would make this deal in a second and not even blink.

i dont see why we wouldnt pull this deal if it wasn't offered to us. i dont know why people continue to say we have an artest in our squad in josh howard.

whats wrong with adding another shut down defender is can keep defenses honest with his offense? who cares if he's a bit looney tunes. his contract is good enough to keep teams interested in his potential. when you consider people like rip hamilton are getting paid more than him, i ship walker off in a new york second.

like wfor3 said earlier, this forces us to start a scrappy center who can grab some rebounds and knows his role. absolutely fantastic deal.

Yep, I agree 100% aexy. Artest is actual quite a good offensive player as well, and his d is just phenomenal, and let's remember, j-ho is just a rookie, and his D is nowhere near Artest's, sure he's still learning, but Artest is the NBA's best perimeter defender imo, plus a real O game unlike Mrs. Christie or 40% ft Bowen

Stressboy
12-30-2003, 11:04 AM
I do the trade of Jamison not Walker. People keep forgetting what Walker brings to the team. When Dirk is at the 5 and Walker at the 4, we cause huge matchup problems for the Spurs, Lakers, Sacramento and the Wolves if they have Kandi. One of their 4 or 5 men is so totally outmatched on the perimiter as to make them a liability and we force them to play small. As much as I like Jamison over Walker as far as chemistry and so forth, having 3 small forwards in Jamison, Artest and Howard would be major overkill.

Nash/Danials
Fin/Howard
Artest/Howard
Walker/Dirk/Chroshere
Dirk/Bradley/Pollard

would be by far the best situation over the course of the game as you could keep Howard or Artest always in the game and at times you could play the two together while still creating the huge mismatches at the 4 and 5.

All that being said, lets just stand pat and let our new players start to feel at home. I like the second trade, but I don't think Indy takes on Fortsons contract without us taking chroshere.

Stressboy

Rhylan
12-30-2003, 11:49 AM
We have a multi-dimensional threat on our team, right now, who LARRY BIRD likes? I say you're stupid not to keep him, then. Listen to Larry.

kg_veteran
12-30-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by: Rhylan
We have a multi-dimensional threat on our team, right now, who LARRY BIRD likes? I say you're stupid not to keep him, then. Listen to Larry.

Agreed.

sike
12-30-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Originally posted by: Rhylan
We have a multi-dimensional threat on our team, right now, who LARRY BIRD likes? I say you're stupid not to keep him, then. Listen to Larry.

Agreed.


I agree

but with the condition that if a good 5 comes avalible we do the deal.....other than that...I dont trade any of the big five!

LRB
12-30-2003, 12:27 PM
Too bad we can't get both Sheed and Artest. i/expressions/moon.gif

uberfan
12-30-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Originally posted by: Rhylan
We have a multi-dimensional threat on our team, right now, who LARRY BIRD likes? I say you're stupid not to keep him, then. Listen to Larry.

Agreed.


I agree

but with the condition that if a good 5 comes avalible we do the deal.....other than that...I dont trade any of the big five!

The reality is that no good 5 is going to come along that are worth any of the Big 6.

Any Center we get for some package other than one of the Big 6 is going to be a role player, which is great and just what we need!

We can argue all we want about the merits of Dirk playing the 5, but the corresponding reality is that any of the other candidates (often discussed on this board and elsewhere) we get to move into a starting spot (Wallace, Kenyon Martin, etc) are going to be better suited to play at PF and thus Dirk is back at the 5.

Then, why not go with our Big 5 as the starters, Howard as the 6th man for all he brings, followed by Bradley, Daniels (At PG) and Fortson, in that order. That 9 man rotation still provides so much matchup flexibility it is mind-boggling for any mad scientist.

Contiune to work the phones to see if any or all of Delk, Best, Najera, TAW, and possibly Fortson can be moved for another 5 and a solid backup PG for the playoff run and as insurance against major injuries.


During the offseason and after the expansion draft, it's a whole new ballgame.

sike
12-30-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by: uberfan

Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Originally posted by: Rhylan
We have a multi-dimensional threat on our team, right now, who LARRY BIRD likes? I say you're stupid not to keep him, then. Listen to Larry.

Agreed.


I agree

but with the condition that if a good 5 comes avalible we do the deal.....other than that...I dont trade any of the big five!

The reality is that no good 5 is going to come along that are worth any of the Big 6.

Any Center we get for some package other than one of the Big 6 is going to be a role player, which is great and just what we need!

We can argue all we want about the merits of Dirk playing the 5, but the corresponding reality is that any of the other candidates (often discussed on this board and elsewhere) we get to move into a starting spot (Wallace, Kenyon Martin, etc) are going to be better suited to play at PF and thus Dirk is back at the 5.

Then, why not go with our Big 5 as the starters, Howard as the 6th man for all he brings, followed by Bradley, Daniels (At PG) and Fortson, in that order. That 9 man rotation still provides so much matchup flexibility it is mind-boggling for any mad scientist.

Contiune to work the phones to see if any or all of Delk, Best, Najera, TAW, and possibly Fortson can be moved for another 5 and a solid backup PG for the playoff run and as insurance against major injuries.


During the offseason and after the expansion draft, it's a whole new ballgame.

I've learned that with Cuban, never say never......

MightyToine
12-30-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by: sike
from what we know about his game(active on the glass, decent passer, pretty tough defender) he might fit well in Dallas......you must remember The Pacers may not be looking for the same things in their 5 as the Mavs...they have O'Neal....that probably changes what you need...




Yes but why would Indy Want Antoine? i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif

jimmychipwood
01-01-2004, 06:35 PM
I liked this trade a lot at first glance (the original trade posted), but agree with some posters that if we trade a forward, we have got to get someone who can play center for us.

Even the Bulls teams that were dominated by Jordan and Pippen had serviceable centers, or at least centers that played.

Artest would be a big upgrade from a toughness and defensive standpoint, but like one poster said, Dirk would end up playing center even more.

Bayliss
01-01-2004, 08:38 PM
I'd do that deal. I respect Bird's opinion a lot. But Pollard/Artest/Croshere is way more than Walker's production. Li/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gifok at this way: What are we missing?

a) A solid center
We have 1 in Bradley but he can only play about 20 minutes. Gaining Pollard could give Bradley the chance to rest and still play his normal minutes. And Pollard is esxactly what we need in a center: non-scoring, rebounding, and tough. Pollard will never be great but paired with a another center he could be productive.

b) tough minded defender
Yes, we have found one in Howard. But Artest is a better defender at this point in time. And what a bonus of being able to put him and Howard in at the same time.

Simon2
01-01-2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Originally posted by: Rhylan
We have a multi-dimensional threat on our team, right now, who LARRY BIRD likes? I say you're stupid not to keep him, then. Listen to Larry.

Agreed.

Who? Dirk? Just kidding.

Walkerforthree
01-01-2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by: Simon2

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Originally posted by: Rhylan
We have a multi-dimensional threat on our team, right now, who LARRY BIRD likes? I say you're stupid not to keep him, then. Listen to Larry.

Agreed.

Who? Dirk? Just kidding.

but you are right Simon

MightyToine
01-01-2004, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by: Bayliss
I'd do that deal. I respect Bird's opinion a lot. But Pollard/Artest/Croshere is way more than Walker's production. Li/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gifok at this way: What are we missing?

a) A solid center
We have 1 in Bradley but he can only play about 20 minutes. Gaining Pollard could give Bradley the chance to rest and still play his normal minutes. And Pollard is esxactly what we need in a center: non-scoring, rebounding, and tough. Pollard will never be great but paired with a another center he could be productive.

b) tough minded defender
Yes, we have found one in Howard. But Artest is a better defender at this point in time. And what a bonus of being able to put him and Howard in at the same time.


Interesting points, bayliss. Only problem is that if Cuban knows that LARRY LEGEND likes Walker, he would try to shoot for Jermaine O'neal in exchange....NOT Scott Polly-wanna-cracker. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

Max Power
01-01-2004, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by: Bayliss
I'd do that deal. I respect Bird's opinion a lot. But Pollard/Artest/Croshere is way more than Walker's production. Li/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gifok at this way: What are we missing?

a) A solid center
We have 1 in Bradley but he can only play about 20 minutes. Gaining Pollard could give Bradley the chance to rest and still play his normal minutes. And Pollard is esxactly what we need in a center: non-scoring, rebounding, and tough. Pollard will never be great but paired with a another center he could be productive.

Pollard would be another Eschmeyer here. He's just not the type of center that Nellie plays. Remember Esch was a moderately productive center before he came here.


b) tough minded defender
Yes, we have found one in Howard. But Artest is a better defender at this point in time. And what a bonus of being able to put him and Howard in at the same time.

Sure Artest is nice but he's not in the same class as a Walker. And when is the last time you've ever seen Nellie put two good defensive players on the court at the same time?

Bayliss
01-01-2004, 11:23 PM
Pollard would be another Eschmeyer here. He's just not the type of center that Nellie plays. Remember Esch was a moderately productive center before he came here.

Sure Artest is nice but he's not in the same class as a Walker. And when is the last time you've ever seen Nellie put two good defensive players on the court at the same time?

Esch was productive when he was here. In fact, Esch was playing good basketball until he sprained his ankle in the Chicago game. After that game, he never got on the court again. I firmly believe Nellie would play a banging center if he had one. He did play Esch adequate minutes when he was healthy. If Pollard was healthy, he would take up all of Fortson's and Najera's minutes.

In 2001-2002 Nellie used a two defensive player unit quite often. Bradley and Buckner got a lot of playing time. Last year Bradley and Griffin/Bell got a lot of playing time. He will play them. And at times together. The problem with the Mavs is we have never had a defensive specialist who could either play both ways (Artest most definitely can and Howard can too) or they haven't been healthy (Griff/Bradley/Esch/Buckner/etc.)

grndmstr_c
01-01-2004, 11:48 PM
Even though we'd be getting a couple servicable PF/C's in Pollard and Croshere in that trade, and a great SF in Artest, I wouldn't give up Walker for that. Logjam at SF would be made even worse, and Croshere and Pollard aren't enough of an answer to our interior defensive weaknesses to justify the loss of, arguably, our most all-around talented player. If we could sub AJ somehow I'd say yes. A three man SG/SF rotation of Fin, JHo, and Artest would be tremendous. Plenty of offensive ability, and extremely high-caliber defense. Don't know if Larry's as big an AJ fan as he is an AW fan, though. Honestly, barring some other unforseen roster altering blockbuster any AW trade with Indy better net us JO or I'm not interested.