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Hitman
01-05-2004, 02:28 PM
How awesome would it be for the Knicks to go to the lottery and the Suns wind up getting like Okafor or Pavel or someone like that?

That would be just too sweet.

The Dolans of Cablevision, Isiah Thomas and Stephon Marbury....perfect together.

kg_veteran
01-05-2004, 02:39 PM
Well, other than the fact that we'd have to play against an even better Suns team, it'd be great.

The East keeps on getting worse, and the West keeps on getting better.

Big Lo
01-05-2004, 02:39 PM
theres no guarantee on okafor nor pavel. but there guarantees on marbury and hardaway.

now tell me how the suns got better? or maybe i misunderstood your basketball i.Q..
14-21 now, well chk that record in another 35 games.

dirno2000
01-05-2004, 02:52 PM
That pick won't be a premium pick. If the Knicks don't make the playoffs they'll be pretty close. They could get lucky like Houston although it's not likely.

Actually I hope they do get Pavel, he'll probably suck anyway. Okafor is a different story.

Male30Dan
01-05-2004, 03:19 PM
I can understand why some of you would think this trade is a TERRIBLE trade for NY and a GREAT trade for Phoenix, but I must say, Phoenix gave away a great role/bench player AND arguably a top 3-5 point guard, (pretty damn hard to come by), for two PG failures, a has-been that MIGHT become 80% of what he once was, some possibilities, some money, and two picks... Sure the picks hurt, and this truly would have been a DAMN GOOD trade for NY were they not thrown in, but come on people... If a team with a terrible cap situation doesnt mind spending the extra dollars, dont knock them for doing it... Look at us for a second will ya... Were we not giving shit to get BETTER players that would hit us harder in the cap expense... Especially if we pay players like Nash and Walker...

All I am saying is they have a potent lineup... A lineup that I would be proud to be a fan of - FINALLY - in NY... Marbury running the show with Houston, Van Horn, Thomas - (both he and Van Horn might still get traded for different talent), and Mutombo - who is a center we are salivating over now fresh from his TEN block performance...

Simply said, they arent terrible, and a post regarding them lottery bound is ridiculous... They WILL make the playoffs this year... They are something like TWO games out of the 8th spot now... Come on everyone... THINK!!! Most of you hate Thomas and NY in general, which is causing all of this rubbish to get posted on this and other threads... But again, THINK!!!

dirno2000
01-05-2004, 03:25 PM
I can understand why some of you would think this trade is a TERRIBLE trade for NY and a GREAT trade for Phoenix


Most of you hate Thomas and NY in general, which is causing all of this rubbish to get posted on this and other threads... But again, THINK!!!

This is the answer to your question.

Male30Dan
01-05-2004, 03:39 PM
Unfortunately, I knew the answer prior to posting...

Many Pacer fans hated how things ended when he was there and despise him for his arrogant and conceited ways!!! They also view him as racist and hate him for that... If Thomas was with Phoenix and this trade was made, everyone that is posting Thomas-bashing comments now would be praising NY for gaining such a great amount of talent...

Simple hate for the city and the GM!

kg_veteran
01-05-2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
That pick won't be a premium pick.

You say this, but you don't know it. The Knicks could make the playoffs in the East, heck, they should, but if they don't it's a disastrous move. You can't give up the possibility of getting into the Top 3 on top of giving up a bunch of other stuff.

kg_veteran
01-05-2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by: Big Lo
now tell me how the suns got better? or maybe i misunderstood your basketball i.Q.. 14-21 now, well chk that record in another 35 games.

Is this a little cheap shot at me?

Here is the Suns' roster at the end of the season:

White - Voskuhl
Stoudemire - Lampe
Marion - Cabarkapa
Johnson - Jacobsen
Eisley - Barbosa

That's 10 players under contract.

They're going to have two first round picks, with at least one being a high lottery pick.

They have a ton of cap room to pursue one or more free agents.

Everybody on the bench is young and talented or a tradeable piece (like Voskuhl).

I'll take a core of Stoudemire, Marion, two first round picks, and a premium free agent over the one they had.

The one they had wasn't going anywhere. This one might.

Male30Dan
01-05-2004, 04:11 PM
So basically you would trade two first round picks for marbury??? Because a premium free agent is promised to NO ONE!!! Several teams can contest to that!

kg_veteran
01-05-2004, 04:17 PM
Dan - The Knicks might make the playoffs this year. They probably make it without making the trade. But they're going to have a hell of a time getting past the first round. If making the first round of the Eastern Conference playoffs is your definition of success, then perhaps this is a good trade.

And their chances for advancement in the playoffs aren't going to get better with time.

kg_veteran
01-05-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by: Male22Dan
So basically you would trade two first round picks for marbury??? Because a premium free agent is promised to NO ONE!!! Several teams can contest to that!

You're right. A premium free agent isn't promised to anyone. But the opportunity to get one plus the young projects plus the two first round picks? Yeah, I'd do it when I knew Marbury probably wouldn't even get me to the playoffs every year in the West.

Male30Dan
01-05-2004, 04:29 PM
KG, Honestly, with the talent in the East, the Knicks could make the NBA finals with their talent! Who really knows... Is NJ really that much better than NY???

KIDD VS. MARBURY I would say Kidd, but very close
KITTLES VS. HOUSTON I would say Houston, not very close
JEFFERSON VS. VAN HORN I would say Van Horn, but neither consistently impress
MARTIN VS. THOMAS I would say Martin, not very close
COLLINS VS. MUTOMBO I would say Mutombo, despite age, not very close

They have more talent than you give them credit for... They still have Frank Williams, Penny, and the rest of their roster, (Norris, Doleac, Sweetney, etc...)!

They have simply been underachieving due to an unhealthy roster... They likely WOULD have made the playoffs without this trade due to McDyess being 75 percent or so... But with it, they could REALISTICALY contend with several other teams in the East...

Most people just look at the record and at past performances and write them off, but they have talent...

I say they AT LEAST make it into the 2nd round of the playoffs... You can book that!

Male30Dan
01-05-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
So basically you would trade two first round picks for marbury??? Because a premium free agent is promised to NO ONE!!! Several teams can contest to that!

You're right. A premium free agent isn't promised to anyone. But the opportunity to get one plus the young projects plus the two first round picks? Yeah, I'd do it when I knew Marbury probably wouldn't even get me to the playoffs every year in the West.


Well that is just it... I am not bashing Phoenix in this trade, just simply trying to help those that are bashing NY to see the light... Phoenix also made a good trade... From their prespective, they knew they were unlikely to REALLY contend anytime soon, so they decided to prepare for the future when some of the West's elite teams will start to struggle again... If you are a Suns fan for the next 20 years, you have to be happy in general for this trade... It sucks now, but you have to know that it gives your team the potential to be REALLY good... But it also gives your team the potential to be lottery bound for many years... Several teams always seem to have a lottery pick... Why do you think that is??? They simply make bad picks, or the very good picks that they thought they had never pan out/get injured/whatever... All I am saying is this is not a bad trade for either team, but for now, which most teams want to play for, it is better for NY in my opinion... It might be better long term if the draft classes are weak or if Phoenix simply picks poor or if McDyess reinjures his knee or a thousand other possibilities like NY pulling off another trade like this one involving Van Horn and Thomas to some other team which will return draft picks and a couple of players...

No one knows the future, but what I do know is that NY didnt get screwed and neither did Phoenix, but both teams got what they wanted, future help for Phoenix that might or might not come and present help for NY which may or may not lead to big things!

Max Power
01-05-2004, 05:10 PM
I think New York did better in the trade than Phoenix did but it is not a slam dunk in either direction. Phoenix basically gave up on their team (again) and reloaded for the future (again). New York got a premier player and reloaded with veterans for an immediate playoff run (again). Who won the trade is based on which outlook you agree with - I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later. But if you have a different viewpoint then more power to you.

kg_veteran
01-05-2004, 05:19 PM
I say they AT LEAST make it into the 2nd round of the playoffs... You can book that!

I'll be happy to wager with you on that.

I think they're going to have an incredibly difficult time beating Indiana, Detroit, New Jersey or New Orleans.



Who won the trade is based on which outlook you agree with - I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later. But if you have a different viewpoint then more power to you.

Max, the false assumption I think you're making is that this trade makes New York a contender.

Max Power
01-05-2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Max, the false assumption I think you're making is that this trade makes New York a contender.

In the East everyone is a contender. New York stabilized a position that has been a problem for years. And they gained Hardaway too.

In the East all you want is to get to the Finals. Then anything can happen. Would New Jersey have won last year if Duncan got hurt?

kg_veteran
01-05-2004, 05:27 PM
Unless major injuries occur, the Knicks, IMO, don't have what it takes to beat Indiana, New Orleans, Detroit, or New Jersey. I don't think the East is quite as wide-open as everyone makes it out to be.

Getting into the playoffs, yes. Winning the conference, no.

WayOutWest
01-05-2004, 05:32 PM
It's hard to fault either team for making the trade.

Two POTENTIAL negatives for NY:
1.)Draft Picks: They gave up 2 first round draft picks. This may or may not become a big deal, it all depends on where the Knicks end up, playoffs or lottery. Judging from the moves Isiah has made so far he's looking to get NY into the playoffs NOW with almost no hope of winning a title in the near future. No way this squad gets past the Hornets this year and no way they get past Detroit, Jersey or Indiana in the next 4 years. He seems to be following his predecessor but he has not choice because of contracts that are already in place which brings us to point 2....

2.)Salary/Contracts: They gave up two expiring contracts and a few small one's for this deal. That doesn't really hurt them for the next 3 years because the contracts they gave up were NOT going to get them under the cap next year anyway, all that those expiring contracts would have done is offer some potential luxury tax relief. Houstons terrible contract is the cap killer for the Knicks and Marbury's contract goes two years past it so they won't feel the pain for a while yet. In about 3-4 years is when they will get cap releif, at that point they can be a player in the FA market.

IMO this is a very good deal for the Knicks, they get a local kid who will help sell seats at the Garden and maybe even get the Knicks into the playoffs. Not sure how things are going to work out with KVH after the incident with Marbury and his mom in NJ.

The Suns realized they are not a contendor in the West with the current squad and are looking to make a play in the FA market next year and hopefully pick up some good draft picks. The Suns could potentially have 10-20 million tickets for the Kobe sweepstakes next summer.

Male30Dan
01-05-2004, 05:32 PM
Well again, then you are wrong!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Seriously KG, Do you really think that Detroit, New Jersey, New Orleans, or Indiana are that superior, if at all, to the Knicks... I already showed you the Knicks versus the Nets, in which case NY matched up pretty damn good... Must I show you how they match up against each team... They are talented, and they are beginning to gain talent in the right positions...

By the way... You just let me know the amount you want to put on that wager and you have a bet... Indiana can implode within any series, (hell they may implode before the playoffs)... Detroit is a very hard team to judge... They look like they could be the hard nose great defensive team like they once had there, then they just collapse... And New Orleans hasnt proven anything to me yet... I say let em play, and we will see when its over!

WayOutWest
01-05-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by: Max Power
I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later.

I don't understand the "building for the future" mentality. So many things can happen in a SINGLE season, let alone over several, that it makes that route way too risky.

Jamisonite
01-05-2004, 06:02 PM
what all of you are failing to realize is that this is just the beginning of a series of moves that NY is going to make. They still have 3 or 4 pgs and they still have plenty of tradeable talent.

Male30Dan
01-05-2004, 06:07 PM
Actually some of us have already been preaching that within the 37 threads involving this trade!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

But its ok, no one listens to me!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

OutletPass
01-05-2004, 06:44 PM
I think it goes without saying that isiah was going to have to DO SOMETHING. Whether this is the ABSOLUTELY RIGHT something can only be determined down the road. There's just NO WAY that you can judge it tonight.

Take a Mavs trade as an example:

Had Etan Thomas or Courtney Alexander turned out to be big time players, we wouldn't have been so happy with the acquisition of Juwan. And if we hadn't turned Juwan into Raef And NVE and then into Walker and Jamison, we'd probably like it even less.

Are the Knicks a better team tonight ?
Probably so. Can that team win the East...I don't think so, but we'll just have to see.

Are the Suns a better team in the future.
Probably so...but we'll have to see. If it turns out that Lampe or Milos or either of the 2 draft picks turn out to be big time players; and/or the Suns can get a big FA like Kobe....that will make everyone look at this trade very differently.

So, rather than hammering each other on WHAT IT does tonight, let's sit back and watch.

After all, who would have thought that the Nash draft pick that we gave up would turn out to be the Matrix. That pick could have just as easily turned out to be another Uwe Blab or Jim Farmer. We know, in general, what this trade does for the knicks, but we just have no idea of what it will or won't do for the Suns.

Nice post by KG...and an excellent one by WOW.

Most of the writers have said that this was a very bold but very risky trade by Isiah, and I agree with that. The Suns may have gotten a pony or two at the bottom of all of this.

Max Power
01-05-2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by: WayOutWest

Originally posted by: Max Power
I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later.

I don't understand the "building for the future" mentality. So many things can happen in a SINGLE season, let alone over several, that it makes that route way too risky.

I believe in the philosophy of George Allen and Al Davis - reload when you need to but compete NOW. Rookies are nice because they are full of potential but that just means that they haven't done anything yet.

kg_veteran
01-05-2004, 08:24 PM
I think it goes without saying that isiah was going to have to DO SOMETHING. Whether this is the ABSOLUTELY RIGHT something can only be determined down the road. There's just NO WAY that you can judge it tonight.

Some party pooper you are. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

As you pointed out, we pretty much know what this does for the Knicks. I'll sit back and watch the rest of what Thomas does before the trading deadline; so far I've been unimpressed, and not because I dislike him (even though that's true) but because I think he's mortgaged the future of the franchise without even giving it the opportunity to win it all now.

WayOutWest
01-05-2004, 10:29 PM
First off, DON'T LAUGH!!!!!!

Do the Suns have Kobe in their eyes? Stephon is not that old and I doubt the Suns going to find someone in the draft as good as him with NY's picks so why trade him for damaged goods, "potential" rookies and thrid string point guards? It almost seems like the Suns intent in this trade was to get under the cap, according to Aldrige, as much as 20 million under the cap. The Suns can now make a legitimate play for Kobe. They've got a young team that's built more to Kobe style of open court play. The Sun players can run and would thrive in an uptempo offense since they don't yet have a legit low post threat, Amare is getting there but not yet. Kobe would be "the man" with great supporting cast talent in Matrix, Amare and Johnson. Here's where it becomes a stretch or the closer depending on how you look at it. Suns coach Mike D'Antoni is Kobe's idol, he's the reason he wears number 8 and when Kobe says he wants to "be like Mike", he's NOT talking about Micheal Jordan, he's talking about Italian league legend Mikd D'Antoni (he said so in Sports Illustrated).

Hmmmmmm.....just some thoughts but kind of interesting if you ask me.

MavKikiNYC
01-05-2004, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

I think it goes without saying that isiah was going to have to DO SOMETHING. Whether this is the ABSOLUTELY RIGHT something can only be determined down the road. There's just NO WAY that you can judge it tonight.

Some party pooper you are. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

As you pointed out, we pretty much know what this does for the Knicks. I'll sit back and watch the rest of what Thomas does before the trading deadline; so far I've been unimpressed, and not because I dislike him (even though that's true) but because I think he's mortgaged the future of the franchise without even giving it the opportunity to win it all now.

These two posts are pretty good summaries of the trade, IMO.

I just can't bring myself to defend Layden, but....he seemed to be making moves geared toward the longer-term. And Thomas has come in and totally mortgaged the future---and I'm talking 2-3 years down the road, not 5. Marbury is going to sell some tix in the short term, put some butts in the seat who'll come in from Brooklyn to see the hometown boy play. I even think he'll be enough to get them the 7-8th seed in the East. But no more.

And the "supporting" cast that the NYKs have for Marbury can easily crumble in the very near future, through retirement (Mutombo), free agency (Thomas), age (Houston is aging fast), injury (could be anybody--even Marbury), ...whatever. Thomas gave up any possible cap improvement, depth, and potential for Marbury, a gimp, and a project. That's it. Cut and dried. Thomas has one more trade bullet to fire with KVH, but he's given away a lot of chips. I'm not sure how good a deal he can make with KVH at this point.

Phoenix (like Jersey) saw that Marbury wasn't going to be enough to get them anywhere near the upper echelon of teams in the West, and so they capitalized him. They bought a LOT of potential in Lampe, Vujanic and the draft picks, and a lot of cap room with McDyess and Ward, and even some utility with Eisley.

You do have to wait and see how this trade pans out over time, but as far as I'm concerned, I like what Phoenix got out of it a LOT more than what the NYKs got.

Shaq Attack2
01-06-2004, 03:52 AM
How on earth are the Knicks not happy with this trade? They got Stephon freaking Marbury who has at the very least 3 years left of killer basketball and probably more like 4-7 years (barring injury of course). This year I'd rank him like so:

1. Jason Kidd (30)
2. Baron Davis (24)
3. Sam Cassell (34)
4. Stephon Marbury (26, 27 next month)
5. Gary Payton (35)

He's certainly going to outlast Payton and Cassell, has a good chance of outlasting Kidd, and is a wash with Baron.

Hardaway is a good role player now (obviously his knee injuries have slowed him down, sadly), he still has a jump shot, and of course he can create for others with his excellent passing and court vision. He might only have 2 years left (possibly more depending on his conditioning), but it's certainly better than anything else the Knicks have.

The Suns are rebuilding at this point, and it's very likely that no one they get in the draft is going to be as good as Marbury has turned out to be for a few years, at least.

MavKikiNYC
01-06-2004, 07:33 AM
NYKs ain't happy because Marbury, while an outstanding INDIVIDUAL talent, is a point guard (not a center) who creates best for himself, and who in Jersey was reviled by coaches and teammates alike.

IMO, Nash does a lot more for his team as a PG than Marbury does for his--and has for the last 3-4 years. Talent doesn't equal productivity, and productivity doesn't equal results.

NYKs are stuck with a freakishy talented individual player without much hope of going anywhere with this team, or of improving in the future.

madape
01-06-2004, 08:20 AM
If mediocrity is the goal, the Knicks SCORED!

Hitman
01-06-2004, 11:27 AM
The great point guards make their teammates better. They literally "create" chemistry. They know who to find and where to find them. They are encouragers and leaders.

Stephon Marbury does none of these things.

He is out for himself, and no one likes playing with him. You think Houston and Van Horn are going to like playing with this guy?

The Knicks should have kept Lampe, Vujanic, their two # 1 picks and McDyess's expiring contract, if the goal is to win a championship.

Of course, in NY that is not the goal.

Big Boy Laroux
01-06-2004, 11:33 AM
the knicks would rather squeeze into the playoffs with the #7 or 8 seed than miss the playoffs so they can actually build for the future. isiah is perfect for the knicks. i hope he drives them into the ground.

WayOutWest
01-06-2004, 12:35 PM
One thing I'd like to point out again is that the current expiring contracts would do nothing for the Knicks for the next 3 years. In 3 years is when cap killer Allen Houston's contract expires, nobody is going to trade for AH's contract in the meantime, at which point they can play the FA market.

madape
01-06-2004, 12:47 PM
WoW has a point. The Knicks were destined to suck until 2006 even before the trade happened. However, now that they have jettisonned all their draft picks and developing talent, they have ensured their fans that they will suck until at least 2008. Way to go Zeke!

OutletPass
01-06-2004, 09:28 PM
Sorry KG, I didn't intend to poop on the party or rain on the parade, I just thought that this particular trade couldn't really be evaluated very well for quite a while. You have to admit, it's not often that we see a trade with so many young guys and draft picks from one side. I'veactually enjoyed this thread a lot...they're have been a lot of good points made by a lot of people...it reminds me of days gone by on this board.

When I see trades like this...my first thought is that it's a "ticket sales " trade....and that's also my second and third thoughts tonight. I still don't think that you trade your way to a championship...I just don't. At least not if that trade is about the best player on your team. And to me, there's no question that Starbury is expected o be the best knick's player.

Just look back at recent NBA history and the dominant championship teams.

SA - both Drob and TD were drafted
Bulls - MJ was drafted
Lakers - Kobe was drafted; Shaq was a FA
Pistons - Isiah was drafted
Celtics - Bird was drafted
Showtime:- Magic was drafted; Kareem came by trade. (Early in his career)

I just tend to think that your best player and (probably) your second best will come by the draft. And Your 3rd, 4th, 5th and others will come by trade or FA or draft. So, if you consider Marbury the best knick now, history would say that he won't lead the Knicks to a ring. The history of a #1 player being traded 3 or 4 times; then leading a team to a ring just isn't there. Knick's ticket sales should go up; their wins should go up some; but, all in all, I'd rather be the Suns in this trade, if rings are the thing.

Dice, Eisley and Ward don't even matter here...Ward is expected to be gone within the week. It's all about cap space to go after Kobe; Milos and Lampe and two picks....and that may or MAY NOT turn into great stuff for the Suns...

But we DO need to wait to find out, sorry !!!

kg_veteran
01-07-2004, 08:52 AM
OP - I just enjoy making snap judgments, and you tried to ruin that for me. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Back to the trade, I talked to a friend of mine last night who is a die-hard Knicks fan, and he likes the trade because it makes the team better now. He acknowledges that the team has mortgaged its future, but he says the future was already mortgaged with the Houston contract for the next three years anyway. His feeling is that it's better to have a team that can compete in the crappy East and maybe get lucky and win the East than a team that can't and still be over the cap.

Interesting points.

MavKikiNYC
01-08-2004, 10:08 AM
His feeling is that it's better to have a team that can compete in the crappy East and maybe get lucky and win the East than a team that can't and still be over the cap.

This is called "denying the problem".

OutletPass
01-08-2004, 08:22 PM
With the recently "offensively challenged" rockets ahead of the Knicks, in New York, by 30 with 10 minutes to go in the fourth period, I can only wonder what Knick's fans are saying now...as they're on the way to their worse loss of the year, so far.

OutletPass
01-08-2004, 09:23 PM
The final score:

Rox 111
NY 79

And it wasn't even that close...

Knicks fans are going to have to decide on their tickets....spit or swallow ?

MavKikiNYC
01-09-2004, 11:26 AM
Wasn't that beautiful?---watching Thomas turn on a spit while his reclamation project flopped.

There was a huge buzz down at MSG before the game, and then the ever-deserving NYK fans got pissed on by Zeke's new puppy. The silence was golden.

Marbury souunded like he was in shock afterward--clueless as to what he was up against. He sounded like a lot of Mavs fans on this board: "Things gon' git bettuh. They got to. We jus' gotta play togethuh. It takes time." Time. And talent. And intelligence. And discipline. And hard work. Lots of luck, son.

Classless NYK fans calling for Chaney's head after a loss like that (ironically against JVG, whom they also hated.) I soooo hope Thomas steps in to "coach" this mess--he DESERVES to.

OutletPass
01-09-2004, 11:08 PM
I gotta tell ya, Kiki...I used to love the Frazier, Reed, Bradly, DeBusch Knicks...so it's a little sad for me to watch this stuff...BUT...that was ONE HELL of a thrashing that the Rox put on the Knicks...really, just one of the ugliest NBA games that I've seen all year.

I'm glad that you gave that little "game report" ...I bet that there was a buzz in the Garden...BEFORE the game. I'll bet that Zeke is the loneliest guy on the island today...and Layden is smiling....

I hope Knicks fans get better days when Zeke is gone , I really do, but that was just BUTT UGLY.

OutletPass
01-09-2004, 11:11 PM
Forgot one thing....., kiki, I'm betting that Zeke will step in as coach...and that he'll get EXACTLY what he deserves.

If you could elaborate for a few minutes...why were the Knicks fans all over Don ? This isn't HIS MESS !!

MavKikiNYC
01-10-2004, 09:14 AM
That whole crowd-on-Chaney thing was sick--more than a little "Lord of the Flies".

I haven't necessarily been a big fan of Chaney's. I didn't think he was the right long-term replacement for JVG, but that he was just holding a place, marking time until they NYKs found a big-name coach.

But two things--

1) Chaney has been nothing but class as head coach for the NYKs. He has totally put his head down and tried to make the thing work with the 2nd-tier and 3rd-tier and 4th-tier talent that he was dealt. The results have been totally predictable, but he has been a total pro.

2) And it's 100% true that NONE of the NYKs situation was Chaney's fault. He was coaching through mistakes made by Checketts, JVG, Layden, Dolan et al.

NYK fans were on Chaney for God only knows what reason--in part because the team is playing so bad; in part maybe because Layden appeared to support him. But no way, no how in my book did he deserve that (having fans chant "Fire Don Chaney!" at the Garden, on a nationally televised ballgame). I wouldn't even want to see Nellie go through that, and I think he might even deserve it a little bit.

That incident the other night just cemented for me the fact that I will never be able to bond with NYK fans. What a classless, obnoxious, overrated, mob-mentality, (and frankly racist) bunch of losers they are. They totally deserve the mess they're about to endure with Thomas at the helm. NYKs will not be enjoyable for basketball, but for sheer unbridled schadenfreude, they may have the best act goin'.

Hitman
01-10-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC

Classless NYK fans calling for Chaney's head after a loss like that (ironically against JVG, whom they also hated.)

You are way off base there.

New York fans revere Jeff Van Gundy.

And Cheney does deserve to be fired.

Hitman
01-10-2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC


That incident the other night just cemented for me the fact that I will never be able to bond with NYK fans. What a classless, obnoxious, overrated, mob-mentality, (and frankly racist) bunch of losers they are.


Kiki,

I can understand that you may not be able to bond with New York fans. I myself live in Manhattan and have lived in New York my whole life and I have not really rooted for the Knicks in a while.

However to call the New York Knick fans racist is absolutely senseless.

The New York Knick fans who cheer Latrell Sprewell and call for Keith Van Horn's head are racist?

New York fans will cheer for a winner and it does not matter if they are black, white, blue, red, a good guy, a bad guy, whatever.

That comment is way off base.

MavKikiNYC
01-10-2004, 11:04 AM
I'll grant you tha the allusion to racism among NYK fans in the post I made was tangential to the Don Chaney issue, but I'll stand by it based on what I've observed, though perhaps not from the perspective that you're interpreting.


The New York Knick fans who cheer Latrell Sprewell and call for Keith Van Horn's head are racist?

Actually, this is what I'm talking about. NYKs fans, both in MSG and on NYK chatboards, are sickeningly, fawningly pro-streetball/playground player, who almost invariably tend to be African-American, and they show ZERO tolerance for a player who they don't think plays with 'flay-vuh'.

I've seen way too many people identifying themselves as native NY-er NYK fans whose posts are vehmently, resentfully anti-Euro player, and who unwarrantedly assume that these Euro players are 'soft' and not talented enough to justify being in the NBA.

Another case in point was JVG--he had plenty to criticize, but all too often the dissatisfaction with him came expressed in thinly-veily, racist-tinged insults.

Same with Layden--he made plenty of bad decisions, but the abuse and denigration that was heaped on him came with overtly racist slurs--everything from mistakenly labelling him as a Mormon (when in fact the Laydens are Irish-Catholic from Brooklyn, no less), to the characterization of him as a mealy-mouthed whiteboy.

So now the NYKs have Isiah, who both as a player and as a coach has made comments and personnel moves that had people questioning his motives. And now the NYK fans, many of whom are the same ones who rode JVG mercilessly, who narrowly avoided aneurisms when Spreewell was traded for KVH, and who (jokingly?) threatened to lynch Layden are happy. Connect the dots, man.

The thing against Chaney the other night was sick, but I agree that it doesn't appear to've been racially motivated. It was just another reason, in addition to the racism that I've observed, why I think NYK fans are a bunch of moronic, blowhard idiots, falsely convinced of their own superior basketball intellect and sophistication, mistaken in the belief that they DESERVE a winner simply by virtue of being NYers. They have the "winner' they deserve in Thomas, and I'm going to enjoy watching them turn on him and bust his loser a$$ back whence he came.

But I'll stand by my observations.

Hitman
01-10-2004, 11:49 AM
I see what you are saying...and I can't say that I disagree much.

MavKikiNYC
01-11-2004, 09:27 AM
Vescey seems to agree somewhat re Chaney--don't know whether that's necessarily good or bad.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHANEY'S NO FOOL:
Knicks' roster shake-ups, not Don Chaney, were reason club got pounded at home by Houston Thursday night



January 11, 2004 -- DISPARAGE Don Chaney's coaching and career record to your heart's content, and overreact all you want to Thursday night's mortifying massacre, but I'm still waiting for a detailed explanation on how getting whacked, 111-79, by Jeff Van Gundy's Rockets was his responsibility.
The chants, "Fire Chaney!" and the ruthless eruption by the media to one or two lousy losses only confirms the fallacy that New Yorkers boast the most sophisticated basketball minds.

Oh, I see, it was Chaney's fault Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway had no clue where to go on defense or how to provide help. Their teammates were thoroughly thrown out of sync.

"We were constantly looking over our shoulder to see if they were in the right spots," Allan Houston underlined. "It takes time to learn our system and build trust."

Marbury was flat out lost. "I've never been associated with anything like the defense the Knicks play," he told me.

Oh, I see, it was Chaney's fault the Knicks' odious offensive display set hockey ahead 20 years.

Introduce a new starting center, forward or shooting guard in the lineup and key adjustments must be made. Import a playmaker, especially one as complex to decode as Marbury (the Suns were still trying to get attuned in year three), and everything and everyone must undergo a major modification.


"Stephon doesn't know where each of us wants the ball, where our favorite places to get it are," Houston noted. "We were successful recently [four-game win streak] with everyone touching the ball and now we've got a guy who's used to dominating it. We need lots of communication and court time to work this out, no question."

When Amare Stoudemire and Zarko Cabarkapa got injured earlier this season, the Suns' opposition figured out how additionally to disarm them: double Marbury up top with an athletic big man. Which is what the Rockets did from the git-go by sending Kelvin Cato at Marbury as soon as he crossed halfcourt and coerce him to give up the ball.

"That tactic has worked well," Marbury admitted. "The only team that didn't do it was the Clippers and I got 40 [on Dec. 29] on 'em.

"Now that my teammates understand what's happening they'll be more aggressive when I give it up. They can't wait for me to come back and get it, they've got to make quick plays."

Oh, I see, it's Chaney's fault the Knicks aren't blessed with an abundance of dream weavers capable of taking opponents off the dribble and concocting something special.

Thomas has been working three weeks to downgrade that deficiency and upgrade others. It takes time. Counting last night's encounter with the Bucks, the Knicks have had three games to familiarize themselves with each other and for Chaney to alter his philosophy. That, too, takes time.

Hopefully, Thomas will show the same judicious restraint - allowing mob mentality to influence his coaching decision is beneath him - and respect for what Chaney's up against as he expects us to show him if his radical renovation isn't an overnight success.

MavKikiNYC
01-13-2004, 01:45 PM
For Now, Thomas Rules Out Taking Over as Knicks Coach
By LIZ ROBBINS

Published: January 13, 2004


siah Thomas has not ended the speculation that he will fire Don Chaney as the Knicks' coach. But Thomas did rule out himself yesterday as a coaching candidate — for now.

"We're in the state where I think it would be impossible for me to do both and do them well," Thomas, the Knicks' president, said before last night's loss to the Mavericks. "We're trying to get healthy and we got to dig ourselves out of a big hole. And I don't think I would do this organization justice by trying to do both jobs."

But asked about the future, Thomas held the door open again. "In sports I always say you never say never, because you never know what's going to happen," he said.

Asked if he wanted to say that Chaney could coach the rest of the season to solidify Chaney's spot, Thomas said: "No, I don't. I would never say that about anybody. Those type of broad statements are not realistic in the sporting world we live in."

Yesterday, Thomas, dressed in his team sweats, offered Stephon Marbury a clinic on the pick-and-roll. A minute later, Othella Harrington, Allan Houston, Moochie Norris and Michael Doleac drifted over.

Clearly there is tension between Chaney and Thomas. Chaney did not want to talk about Thomas's impromptu coaching, nor what kind of a benefit that could be.

"No comment," Chaney said four times. "I have a game to concentrate on. I just don't have a comment. I'm just not going to talk about it."



I wonder how many times Cuban has done this already?

dirno2000
01-13-2004, 02:13 PM
I wonder how many times Cuban has done this already?

lol...that would be hilarious. Cuban trying to teach Nash and Dirk how to run the pick and roll. Sharing the expertise he pickup while playing intramural ball at IU. The question is; could they keep themselves from laughing long enough to listen.

Zeke should just fire him now and get it over with. Cheany doesn't deserve to be hung out to dry like this.

kg_veteran
01-13-2004, 02:39 PM
Zeke should just fire him now and get it over with. Cheany doesn't deserve to be hung out to dry like this.

That's the truth.

Male30Dan
01-20-2004, 03:30 PM
Not to say I told you so or anything, but as of today, the Knicks have the 8th spot in the Eastern Conference Playoffs, have won 4 in a row, and look like the team that I predicted would make it to AT LEAST the 2nd round of the playoffs after the Marbury trade!!!

By the way KG, that is a bet you are going to lose!


Originally posted by: kg_veteran

I say they AT LEAST make it into the 2nd round of the playoffs... You can book that!

I'll be happy to wager with you on that.

I think they're going to have an incredibly difficult time beating Indiana, Detroit, New Jersey or New Orleans.



Who won the trade is based on which outlook you agree with - I agree with contending NOW rather than taking a step back and hopefully contending later. But if you have a different viewpoint then more power to you.

Max, the false assumption I think you're making is that this trade makes New York a contender.

dirno2000
02-03-2004, 11:36 PM
Knicks win one for Zeke
---------------------------------------
NEW YORK (AP) -- Isiah Thomas' old team ran into his new one, and the team he now runs outplayed the one he formerly coached.

Two of Thomas' acquisitions, Penny Hardaway and Stephon Marbury, made several big plays down the stretch Tuesday night to lead the New York Knicks past the Pacers 97-90, ending Indiana's three-game winning streak.

This was a measuring stick game for the Knicks as they try to climb to .500 and qualify for the postseason, and they gave one of their better performances of Thomas' six-week tenure as team president.

"It's not about me, it's about the players, and they played well tonight," Thomas said. "I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Pacers, they're a great team.

"It's a long, long way to go, and our players were great tonight."

Hardaway had 14 points, including a clinching jumper with 17.2 seconds remaining, and Marbury had 23 points and eight assists.

Keith Van Horn outplayed Ron Artest at small forward and had 20 points, 12 rebounds, three assists and two blocked shots, and Kurt Thomas added 19 points and 12 rebounds.

Artest had 19 points for the Pacers, who were coached by Thomas the past three seasons. Thomas was fired in August by new team president Larry Bird, and this was his former team's first time playing in his presence since they were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs last spring.

"There wasn't any talk, but I think we all had it in the back of our minds that this game was extremely important for him -- especially with the circumstances that went down in Indiana," Van Horn said.

Thomas watched the game from his usual spot near the tunnel behind the scorer's table at Madison Square Garden, the Knicks celebrating at the end of one of their most quality victories of the season.

"We're going to remember those guys acting like they won the championship," Indiana's Jermaine O'Neal said. "Hopefully guys on our team have long memories."

After Reggie Miller put in a reverse layup to cut Indiana's deficit to 91-90, Marbury got past Jamaal Tinsley and drew a second defender, leaving Thomas open for an 18-footer that made it 93-90 with 45 seconds left.

Artest missed two free throws with 39.7 seconds left, and New York ran the clock down before Hardaway banked in a 10-footer over Tinsley for a 95-90 lead with 17.2 seconds remaining.

Miller missed a tightly defended 3 from the corner on Indiana's next possession to end the Pacers' final hope.

"I knew he (Thomas) wanted this win real badly. We definitely did not want to let him down," Hardaway said. "I think he wanted to see how we were going to respond to a good team coming in here and see what we were going to do, and I think we stepped up to the challenge."

Neither team led by more than seven points in a tight first half that ended with New York ahead 47-43 thanks to a 12-0 edge in second-chance points.

Tinsley hit three 3-pointers in the third quarter, the last of which completed a 16-4 run and gave Indiana a 63-57 lead. The Pacers didn't trail again until Van Horn hit a corner jumper to give New York a 74-73 lead with 9:32 remaining in the fourth quarter.

New York stayed ahead the rest of the way to win its third in a row.

"This is a great feeling. This is what basketball is all about, games like this," Van Horn said.

Male30Dan
02-04-2004, 09:15 AM
And now 7th in the East...

kg_veteran
02-04-2004, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by: Male22Dan
And now 7th in the East...

You must be listening to Kevin Frazier and his NBA Fastbreak buddies too much, Dan. They were foaming at the mouth last night over how great the Knicks look now, and I'll ask them the same thing I asked you several weeks ago when I made that bet -- who are the Knicks going to beat to get out of the first round? They can't beat Indiana, New Jersey, Detroit or New Orleans in a series.

Also, I know it's really impressive that the Knicks have now SURGED to four games UNDER .500 (23-27), but how impressive will it be when they go about 3-7 over the next 10? (If you don't believe me, take a look at their schedule.)

Don't believe the hype from the Fastbreak boys, Dan. The Knicks are still a very mediocre team.

dirno2000
02-04-2004, 10:30 AM
KG, I don't understand why you're so down on the Knicks. They have a good defensive center (that most people on this board wanted) two workmen at power forward (Thomas and Harrington), a big versatile small forward, the Michael Finely of the East at the two and one of the better pg's in the league. Lenny Wilkins is actually playing Mutombo and Penny is a solid vet coming off of the bench.

Houston is out until after the All-Star break so if they can go 5-5 over the next ten they'll be in good shape in the East. The only two games that I'm pretty sure they'll lose are @Dallas and @Sac.

As far as the playoffs, three of the four teams you mentioned don’t scare me. There’s no reason NO, NJ, or Det. can’t lose in the 1st round. J-O’Neal probably wouldn’t allow Indy to fall that early, but the other three are vulnerable, especially if Steph raised his game.

kingrex
02-04-2004, 10:41 AM
Knicks beat the unsinkable Pacers. Nice job knickerbockers, and don't put them in the Lottery yet.

kg_veteran
02-04-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
KG, I don't understand why you're so down on the Knicks. They have a good defensive center (that most people on this board wanted) two workmen at power forward (Thomas and Harrington), a big versatile small forward, the Michael Finely of the East at the two and one of the better pg's in the league. Lenny Wilkins is actually playing Mutombo and Penny is a solid vet coming off of the bench.

It's not so much that I'm down on them; I just try to be realistic about them. For some reason, a lot of basketball fans are patently unrealistic when discussing the Knicks.

They have a workable frontcourt rotation with Mutombo, Doleac, Thomas, and Harrington -- I'll agree to that. I'm even a fan of Van Horn's game, and I'll agree that Penny is a solid guy coming off the bench.

Marbury has never elevated his teams to the level of his supposed talent. Sure, he's a great individual player, but he's going to have to prove to me that he can carry a team before I'll believe it.

As for Houston, you really insult Michael Finley when you call Houston the "Finley of the East". People rag on Finley for bad defense; well, Houston makes Fin look like Ron Artest. Houston is one of the most one-dimensional players in the league. At least Fin defends (and works hard on defense) and hits the glass. Houston does one thing and ONLY one thing: shoot.

So they have a decent frontcourt, a good PG who has never taken a team anywhere, and a one-dimensional SG. Forgive me if I'm not singing their praises.


Houston is out until after the All-Star break so if they can go 5-5 over the next ten they'll be in good shape in the East. The only two games that I'm pretty sure they'll lose are @Dallas and @Sac.

7 Sat @ Miami
8 Sun L.A. Clippers
10 Tue @ Dallas
11 Wed @ New Orleans
17 Tue Detroit
20 Fri Utah
22 Sun Cleveland
24 Tue @ Sacramento
25 Wed @ Phoenix
27 Fri @ L.A. Clippers

I see the Clippers and Cleveland at home as the only sure wins and Dallas, Sacramento, and New Orleans as clear losses. I also don't like their chances in Miami, Phoenix or LAC. Detroit and Utah at home won't exactly be cakewalks.

They'd be extremely lucky to come out of that stretch 5-5.


As far as the playoffs, three of the four teams you mentioned don’t scare me. There’s no reason NO, NJ, or Det. can’t lose in the 1st round. J-O’Neal probably wouldn’t allow Indy to fall that early, but the other three are vulnerable, especially if Steph raised his game.

New Orleans is a veteran squad. Their starting five is better; their bench is better. Sure, it's possible that they could lose, but it's not probable.

New Jersey has had their trouble this season, but they're not going out in the first round. Kidd's too good.

Detroit is another team that's deeper and better than the Knicks.

If you want me to concede that it's "possible" for the Knicks to get to the second round, I suppose I'll have to do that. A lot of stuff is "possible". But it's going to take another team breaking down or beating themselves for the Knicks to get there. They aren't good enough to go and take a series from any of the top 4 teams in the East.

dirno2000
02-04-2004, 02:18 PM
KG the gap between Houston and Finley is not as wide as you’re making it out to be. I don’t watch enough Knicks basketball to give a thorough critique of his defense, but the fact that he played under Jeff Van Gundy leads me to believe that Houston’s not just out there running around with is hands at his sides. Like the rest of our stars, Finley has is moments where he has no interest in stopping anybody. He’s a decent defender when he puts his mind to it, just like Houston is. Yes, Allen Houston’s specialty is shooting and he does is as well as just about anybody in the league. And it’s not like he’s Craig Hodges just drifting around the perimeter, waiting for someone to pass him the ball, he can create his own shot. It’s by no means a knock on Michael Finley to compare him with Allen Houston. The two are stunningly similar players.

They’re 7-3 since Wilkens signed on, albeit with a favorable schedule. The next ten games will be tough since Houston will be out until at least the All-Star break. When he comes back we’ll get to see how that team comes together. When it’s all said and done I think they’ll be a good Eastern Conference team capable of knocking off most of the upper echelon teams. If nothing else they’re watchable for the first time in years.

Male30Dan
02-04-2004, 02:53 PM
Nope... No Fastbreak KG... Just simple BB knowledge!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

You will LOSE your bet KG... You will lose... To make such a blank statement as to say that the Knicks cant beat these four teams if they make the playoffs is just ridiculous... I mean look back at some of the playoffs and you see upsets all the time... Last year there were upsets... Years ago there were upsets... Hell, look at what happened when those Nuggets played with heart against the 1 seed Sonics several years back... In basketball, like any sport, any team can be beat... So when I look at a talented team like the Knicks, (and by the way, I am NOT a Knicks fan - you have no idea how I loved watching Charles Smith get his ball swatted over and over against the bulls in the playoffs - or how I loved watching Ewings driving layup clank off of the back of the rim in another playoff series). But I am just stating my basketball opinion here... I think they are talented enough to make the playoffs and beat probably any team outside of Indiana and New Jersey, (despite their win against Indiana last night, this is the only real team I think can actually win it all from the East). With that said, I think they COULD beat either of those teams in the right situation. Any what happens if the overtake New Jersey in their division. They are only 5 games back, and could actually do that... What happens then when they have the 2nd seed in the playoffs??? Do you still think they dont advance into the 2nd round... If NJ goes on another tail spin under their new Doogie Howser coach, anything could happen in that weak ass division...

So to you KG, a man who will soon be beaten and bruised via a lost bet and hurt ego, I say bah humbug to your pessimistic views regarding the Knicks... It all likely comes down to Thomas hatred anyway... i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

kg_veteran
02-04-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
KG the gap between Houston and Finley is not as wide as you’re making it out to be.

It’s by no means a knock on Michael Finley to compare him with Allen Houston. The two are stunningly similar players.

They're very similar on the offensive end. That's about it. Finley's a much better passer and rebounder. It's amazing to me that Houston gets about 2 1/2 rebounds a game despite playing 37 minutes a game. That's just horrible for a guy 6'6". Neither of them are great defenders, but I'm pretty positive that Finley is universally considered the better defender of the two. And the better player.


They’re 7-3 since Wilkens signed on, albeit with a favorable schedule. The next ten games will be tough since Houston will be out until at least the All-Star break. When he comes back we’ll get to see how that team comes together. When it’s all said and done I think they’ll be a good Eastern Conference team capable of knocking off most of the upper echelon teams. If nothing else they’re watchable for the first time in years.

Watchable, yes. Good, well, the jury's definitely still out on that.

kg_veteran
02-04-2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by: Male22Dan
Nope... No Fastbreak KG... Just simple BB knowledge!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

You will LOSE your bet KG... You will lose... To make such a blank statement as to say that the Knicks cant beat these four teams if they make the playoffs is just ridiculous...

I can't remember who I bet with, but if it's so ridiculous, why don't you and I bet on it?


I mean look back at some of the playoffs and you see upsets all the time... Last year there were upsets... Years ago there were upsets... Hell, look at what happened when those Nuggets played with heart against the 1 seed Sonics several years back... In basketball, like any sport, any team can be beat...

So, basically, you're counting on a miracle. That's sound logic.


So when I look at a talented team like the Knicks, (and by the way, I am NOT a Knicks fan - you have no idea how I loved watching Charles Smith get his ball swatted over and over against the bulls in the playoffs - or how I loved watching Ewings driving layup clank off of the back of the rim in another playoff series). But I am just stating my basketball opinion here... I think they are talented enough to make the playoffs and beat probably any team outside of Indiana and New Jersey, (despite their win against Indiana last night, this is the only real team I think can actually win it all from the East). With that said, I think they COULD beat either of those teams in the right situation. Any what happens if the overtake New Jersey in their division. They are only 5 games back, and could actually do that... What happens then when they have the 2nd seed in the playoffs??? Do you still think they dont advance into the 2nd round... If NJ goes on another tail spin under their new Doogie Howser coach, anything could happen in that weak ass division...

So bet me then.


So to you KG, a man who will soon be beaten and bruised via a lost bet and hurt ego, I say bah humbug to your pessimistic views regarding the Knicks... It all likely comes down to Thomas hatred anyway... i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Yeah, that's it. Thomas hatred. It has nothing to do with the reasoning I provided above. Sheesh.

Male30Dan
02-05-2004, 01:02 PM
Im not ducking you KG... I just got back to this thread... I put 50 dollars down for the taking if your wallet is as big as your mouth...

Regarding the "counting on a miracle" crap line... Give me a break KG... You made comments saying it couldnt be done, and I threw facts your way... So you assume I am saying WELL IF THEY DID IT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE THOSE SORRY KNICKS CAN... Please... They ARE a good team, and if they lose from here on out and dont make the playoffs or win just enough and get knocked out in the first - THEY WILL STILL BE A GOOD TEAM, AND GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME TO LAY 50 DOLLARS ON THEM IN FACT MAKING THE SECOND ROUND... Like I said, you will lose anyway!!!

In fact, lets make it 100, such that 50 goes to the board either way, and 50 to the winner!!! Dont ask me to ball up if you dont want your money taken from you like a bully takes a kids lunch money!!!

kg_veteran
02-05-2004, 02:49 PM
I read back through the thread, and it seems that you and I were the ones discussing a bet in the first place.

$100 is a bit rich for my blood (mortgage and bills to pay), but I'll gladly bet you $50 that the Knicks don't get out of the first round.

Male30Dan
02-05-2004, 03:35 PM
50 it is... But seeing as how I have yet to donate anything to the board, lets again make it a half and half bet, such that if I lose, at least some good will come from it.

25 to you/me, 25 to the board... Sound good and fair? And you can make that check out to Daniel, not Dan!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

kg_veteran
02-05-2004, 04:55 PM
Sounds good to me. 25/25 it is.

Max Power
02-11-2004, 05:01 PM
bump to ask - who doesn't think the Knicks are going to make the playoffs now?

Male30Dan
02-16-2004, 05:01 PM
Things sure are looking bad for your side of the bet KG... But hey, they looked bad before this past trade!

TheBaron
02-16-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by: Max Power
bump to ask - who doesn't think the Knicks are going to make the playoffs now?

Who thinks making the playoffs in the East is a big accomplishment? Philly and Orlando fall out of the bottom and not too many East teams that werent in the playoffs last year are really rising so the question is: which crappy teams will fill Orlando and Philadelphia's shoes?

Poindexter Einstein
02-16-2004, 05:20 PM
I am merely a bystander in this stuff ... But the bet wasnt about making the playoffs. it was about getting out of the first round. To do that, it seems to me that the Knicks will likely need a seed that is 5 or better, because the East has 3 pretty decent teams in Indy, NJ, and Det - and thus a 6,7, or 8 seed against one of those 3 (and with the other team getting home court to boot) seems like one-and-done to me. The question is, can the Knicks make it to a 5th seed? Though they are improved, that might be VERY problematic still.

TheBaron
02-16-2004, 05:30 PM
In that case, let me in on the bet. The Knicks have no chance of making it out of the first round. Anyone who will bet me money?

kg_veteran
02-16-2004, 06:14 PM
Poindexter - I don't think they can beat any of the top 4 teams in the East, but they definitely aren't beating Indy, NJ, or Detroit.

Baron - I'm sure Male22Dan will give you some of his money. He's already going to give me some of his.


Posted by Dan:


Things sure are looking bad for your side of the bet KG... But hey, they looked bad before this past trade!

Are you suggesting that the most recent trade made the Knicks BETTER? Come on Chad Ford, be realistic. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif The Knicks got weaker at small forward and really didn't get any better at center. I was going to win the bet anyway, but I suppose a thank you note to Zeke is in order. He is being very cooperative.

jayC
02-16-2004, 09:43 PM
Come on admit Isiah has done one helluva job. He traded everyone not named kurt thomas to acquire stephon marbury, and now he got out from under van horn's ridiculous contract. Sure they may have given up on Lampe but their are two ways to win in this league a good point guard or a dominant center. Marbury and Houston could be one helluva combination. Houston does the same thing that Finley does only better shoot the ball. He traded weatherspoon for a need position a backup point guard moochie nooris, he got a solid player in Nazr Mohammed and Tim Thomas. Thomas a 6 foot 10 small forward that can stretch defenses. Add Wallace next year and the Knicks could stamp themselves a finals ticket.

kg_veteran
02-16-2004, 11:37 PM
Come on admit Isiah has done one helluva job.

I can't admit that because I don't believe it. I think he's mortgaged the Knicks to the hilt until nearly the end of the decade without putting together a good enough roster to realistically get out of the East, much less win it all.


He traded everyone not named kurt thomas to acquire stephon marbury, and now he got out from under van horn's ridiculous contract.

Have you compared KVH's contract to Thomas' contract? Isiah saved about $5 million over three years. Hardly a difference-making move salary-wise. And the drop off in talent from KVH to Thomas is sizeable.


Sure they may have given up on Lampe but their are two ways to win in this league a good point guard or a dominant center. Marbury and Houston could be one helluva combination.

Yeah, it's a nice backcourt. But there are a number of really nice backcourts in the East. And most of those teams have good frontcourts, too.


Houston does the same thing that Finley does only better shoot the ball.

This has already been discussed. Houston is much more one-dimensional than Fin; it's painful to hear you compare the two.


He traded weatherspoon for a need position a backup point guard moochie nooris

Did he really need Norris when he a) had a starting PG who's going to play 38-40 mpg and b) already has Frank Williams? Not that Spoon was going to dominate or anything, but I think he'd have been more useful to the Knicks than Norris.


he got a solid player in Nazr Mohammed and Tim Thomas.

Mohammed's a decent backup center, but is he really any better than the guy they shipped out (Doleac)? I don't think so.


Thomas a 6 foot 10 small forward that can stretch defenses.

Van Horn was able to stretch defenses, too. Their shooting percentages from three-point range are nearly identical. Not really much of an upgrade there. And it's not like Thomas is a stopper defensively, either.


Add Wallace next year and the Knicks could stamp themselves a finals ticket.

Add Wallace, and they might get out of the first round. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Seriously, I know a number of people keep floating this rumor, but I'll believe that "CTC" will take a paycut when I see it.

dirno2000
02-17-2004, 12:17 AM
Add Wallace, and they might get out of the first round. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Seriously, I know a number of people keep floating this rumor, but I'll believe that "CTC" will take a paycut when I see it.

He won't have much choice. Atlanta's not looking to take of salary so it will be next to impossible for his agent to construct a sign and trade. Are any of the teams with cap room (off the top of my head Det., SA, PHX, UT, LAC) going to go after Sheed for more then 5 mil per year? Probably not.

Sheed makes NY as good as any team in the East.

Also, I still think you're either underestimating Houston or overestimating Finely.

kg_veteran
02-17-2004, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
He won't have much choice. Atlanta's not looking to take of salary so it will be next to impossible for his agent to construct a sign and trade. Are any of the teams with cap room (off the top of my head Det., SA, PHX, UT, LAC) going to go after Sheed for more then 5 mil per year? Probably not.

We might be able to wager on that, too. Somebody will go after him. He may be an enigma, a headcase, and a troublemaker, but there will be someone willing to pay him more than the MLE.


Sheed makes NY as good as any team in the East.

Let's wait and see whether Wallace actually signs there and whether they are able to keep guys like Kurt Thomas in the offseason before we start debating about a team not yet incarnated.


Also, I still think you're either underestimating Houston or overestimating Finely.

We don't really need to debate this again, do we?

I'll agree that they're very similar offensively.

thebac
02-17-2004, 12:20 PM
KG, I don't disagree with you that often on basketball matters, but a few clarifications are in order:

Isiah did not mortgage the Knicks' future with the Marbury deal. Allan Houston and Shandon Anderson combine for just under $30 million in salaries for the 06-07 season, after which they become free agents. The Knicks were in salary cap hell anyway, there situation could not get much worse. Penny's deal runs out before '07, so he does not affect their ability to get under the cap--they're not going to get under the cap until Anderson's and Houston's contracts expire. If he doesn't deal McDyess' contract now, it'll be worthless soon enough, as they have no cap room to sign any FA's anyway. In addition, Marbury is still young, and a franchise player--if you have the chance to get him, do it.

Having said that, I would agree with you that he might have overpaid for Marbury. It seems as if he was too willing to acquiesce to the Suns' demands, and they might have taken less (did he really have to throw in all those picks?). Nevertheless, he hardly sacrificed any cap room--the Knicks were not going to have any until '07. In addition, the Knicks were bad, but not bad enough (unless they had won last season's lottery) to get a good enough pick to get a difference-maker. Plus projects are just that: projects. Marbury is a proven commodity. Besides, look at the past two drafts, even taking into consideration potential, there are only two players I would have picked ahead of Marbury, knowing what I know now: Yao and LeBron--and neither are better than Marbury now.

As for the Van Horn deal, I'm not going to defend that. Thomas might be a slightly better defender and younger, but he's a worse shooter, rebounder, and scorer. Nazr is a better player than Doleac, but probably by a smaller margin than Van Horn over Thomas. Spoon for Moochie, probably inconsequential.

I don't think they'll make it out of the first round, but we'll see if they catch fire the rest of the season or not.

(Speaking of Tim Thomas, funny how the Bulls wreaked havoc when they had all that cap room a few years back: signing Mercer, Eddie Robinson, and Miller to big contracts, while driving up the price for Thomas. Interesting how the only one who turned out to be a player was Miller, who they traded with Artest for Jalen Rose. Of course, nowadays Artest and Miller look like they will be all stars for years to come, while Rose probably won't see another all star game again (and is saddled with a huge contract--his contract averages $13.2 million a year compared to $16.7 million a year combined for Miller and Artest, despite Miller's large new contract this offseason).)

Male30Dan
02-18-2004, 07:59 AM
Man,

Im gone for a while and KG bad mouths me!!!

Shame shame!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

And Baron, I wanted to bet 100 originally anyway... I am more than happy to take your money and provide the board with a total of 50 dollars that ISNT coming from me, (though I will need to be given proper thanks for my ability to con two suckers out of their hard earned money)!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Male30Dan
02-18-2004, 09:18 AM
And by the way, for not being about to beat Indiana or Detroit, they sure seem to be 2 for 2 here lately!!! Hmm....

MavKikiNYC
02-18-2004, 05:09 PM
Are Mavericks competing with NYKs for Dampier?

Knicks Are Still Pursuing Wallace and Dampier
By LIZ ROBBINS

Published: February 18, 2004

Isiah Thomas made one deal for the Knicks this week, and he is pushing to make a second one by tomorrow's 3 p.m. trading deadline. He still hopes to obtain one of two post players who have been high on his wish list: Atlanta's Rasheed Wallace or Golden State's Erick Dampier.

The Hawks are trying to move Wallace a week after acquiring him in a multiplayer trade. Bill Strickland, Wallace's agent, was at Madison Square Garden last night to see another client, Allan Houston, and to speak with Thomas.

Strickland confirmed Wallace's strong interest in playing in New York. "Our preference is to make that now, before the deadline, but Rasheed would be willing to explore the option of a midlevel exception this summer," Strickland said.

A minimum of five teams are interested in Wallace, but Strickland would not comment about specifics. Detroit, Dallas and Philadelphia have expressed interest.

The Knicks may not have enough pieces to make a straight-up deal for Wallace, who will make $16.9 million this season, his final one before he becomes a free agent this summer.

A person familiar with Thomas's thinking said the Knicks would have to offer Kurt Thomas, Othella Harrington, Dikembe Mutombo and a player like Mike Sweetney or Frank Williams.

To complete a trade for Wallace, a two-time All-Star, Isiah Thomas would most likely have to involve at least one other team.

"You bring his name up to anybody in this league, and every coach is going to go, `Wow,' " Pistons Coach Larry Brown said of Wallace before last night's 92-88 loss to the Knicks. "And every teammate he's ever been with has been pretty positive with him."

It is clear to people around the league that Isiah Thomas still wants the Knicks to get bigger, tougher and quicker. And that could mean he might still trade Kurt Thomas to get Dampier, a 6-foot-11 center. Dampier is having the best season of his eight-year career and fits Thomas's plan for an inside presence.

Dampier is averaging 11.6 rebounds and 11.9 points, but Golden State is shopping him. The team is concerned that he will exercise his opt-out clause and relinquish the final two seasons, worth $17 million.

Indiana and Memphis are pursuing Dampier. The Knicks would have to include more than Kurt Thomas to make the salaries match, and add Williams or Sweetney.

The former Celtics forward Vin Baker is expected to clear waivers today, and Thomas affirmed Monday that he was still interested in Baker, who is battling alcoholism. Atlanta is expected to waive Michael Doleac, according to an Eastern Conference official, and the Knicks could get him back as a free agent if another team does not claim him off waivers.

Thomas still has other chips to trade, including Moochie Norris and Shandon Anderson, whose contracts are weighty but could be used to complete a multiteam deal.

"Aside from New York, I don't think anyone makes trades in our league," Brown said.

kg_veteran
02-26-2004, 08:36 AM
7 Sat @ Miami
8 Sun L.A. Clippers
10 Tue @ Dallas
11 Wed @ New Orleans
17 Tue Detroit
20 Fri Utah
22 Sun Cleveland
24 Tue @ Sacramento
25 Wed @ Phoenix
27 Fri @ L.A. Clippers

I see the Clippers and Cleveland at home as the only sure wins and Dallas, Sacramento, and New Orleans as clear losses. I also don't like their chances in Miami, Phoenix or LAC. Detroit and Utah at home won't exactly be cakewalks.

They'd be extremely lucky to come out of that stretch 5-5.

Bumped to see how they're doing. 3-6 so far, with a game in LA against the Clippers tomorrow night.

But have no fear, Knicks fans. After this month ends, the Knicks are basically done with the West. They ought to do better in March and April.

Will they make up 5 games on the Bucks and slide into the No. 5 spot? I don't think so. Will they be able to hold off Toronto, Miami, Cleveland, and Philadelphia and keep the No. 6 spot? That remains to be seen. Will they make the playoffs? Yeah, I think so.

And the all important question (for purposes of our bet): Will they make it out of the first round? Of course not. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

MikeB
02-26-2004, 09:03 AM
I think Isiah made one trade too many.
I like Nazr as a backup 5 but he is not a good defender. Tim Thomas is a coach killer...alot of talent but very little drive...as bad as Van Horn is at least he shows up 1 out of 3 games...Thomas is like 1 out of 5. The Knicks are sliding and unless they get Allan Houston back soon they will be in and done for sure. It would be cool to watch the Knicks and Pacers in the first round...nice theater. The actual games would be the second or third subplot.

MavKikiNYC
02-29-2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by: MikeB
I think Isiah made one trade too many.
I like Nazr as a backup 5 but he is not a good defender. Tim Thomas is a coach killer...alot of talent but very little drive...as bad as Van Horn is at least he shows up 1 out of 3 games...Thomas is like 1 out of 5. The Knicks are sliding and unless they get Allan Houston back soon they will be in and done for sure. It would be cool to watch the Knicks and Pacers in the first round...nice theater. The actual games would be the second or third subplot.

Looks like you and Chris Broussard of the NYTimes (as well as MSG fans, and unattributed NBA GMs) see things the same way.

From NYTimes 02.29.04

Van Horn Trade Could Haunt Knicks

Fans at Madison Square Garden, where an absent Keith Van Horn has become a cult hero, are not the only ones thinking that the trigger-happy Knicks president, Isiah Thomas, may have made one trade too many. Several executives said that trading Van Horn and Michael Doleac in the deal for Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed could haunt the Knicks.

No official would speak for attribution, but the common sentiment is that to maximize Stephon Marbury's abilities, a team must put good outside shooters around him. The Knicks have no one fitting that description other than the injured Allan Houston. So the pick-and-pop that Marbury ran so well with Van Horn and Doleac has become useless. Also, with no outside shooters to spread the floor, defenses are packing the paint and forcing the Knicks to hoist jumpers. And, Van Horn is a far better rebounder than Thomas.

Two league officials said Isiah Thomas was seduced by Tim Thomas's athleticism. Thomas looked brilliant in scoring 33 against Sacramento, but few around the league believe he will play any more consistently than he did in Milwaukee, where he exasperated team officials with his failure to reach his potential. The book on him is that he does not have the willpower to bring his best game every night.

Finally, Isiah Thomas should have questioned why Milwaukee was so eager to part with Tim Thomas when the team was playing so well. Clubs that are greatly exceeding expectations usually do not like to disrupt chemistry.

While it is too early to judge the trade, the move may have transformed the Knicks from a second-round playoff team with a puncher's chance of upsetting Detroit, Indiana or the Nets into one that is just happy to reach the postseason.

kg_veteran
02-29-2004, 09:00 AM
The Knicks weren't getting to the second round WITH Van Horn, but they darn sure aren't getting there without him.

Fidel
02-29-2004, 05:52 PM
Good job so far Isiah.

Now all you need to do is get rid of this guy:

http://espn.go.com/i/nba/profiles/players/3658.jpg

and you´ve accomplished your mission.

Who cares if the team is winning.

kg_veteran
03-01-2004, 12:05 PM
Now the media is starting to turn on the Knicks. The way the NBA Fastbreak crew was talking a few weeks ago, Isiah was a genius, Lenny Wilkens was the coach the Knicks had been missing, and Stephon Marbury was the guy that would lead the Knicks back to the top. It must really be getting bad...i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Inside Dish: The Knicks are slipping quickly

By Sean Deveney - SportingNews.com







What looked like a sure thing three weeks ago -- the Knicks in the playoffs -- suddenly has become a question mark. New York lost seven out of eight games after February 8, and the trade that netted SF Tim Thomas and C Nazr Mohammed for SF Keith Van Horn was a dud in its first two weeks. The big problem in the short term is defense. Thomas is a notoriously bad and uninterested defender. Mohammed is a power forward who can't handle the minutes the Knicks hoped he could take at center. His presence has limited C Dikembe Mutombo's contribution, and some say that's because team president Isiah Thomas has all but ordered coach Lenny Wilkens to cut Mutombo's minutes. Though Mutombo barely can move these days, he still provides a presence the Knicks need. With so much focus on the playoffs, no one is talking about the long-term financial ditch the Knicks have dug. Their salary cap is, once again, a mess, and the Van Horn deal will add about $7 million in payroll for 2004-05 and '05-06 combined (which will cost the team $14 million if the luxury tax is included). The Knicks are reportedly set to give 31-year-old PF Kurt Thomas a four-year extension at $30 million, which will prove to be a mistake. . . .


Two thoughts...

1. Why in the world did anybody think that the Milwaukee trade was going to make NY better? (Those of you that did, you know who you are...)

2. Why in the world is Isiah trying to cut Deke's minutes? I mean, his nickname rhymes with Isiah's nickname and everything. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif Also, I'd like to think that Mutombo's the best center on that team. Seems like you'd want to play the best guys you have if you're trying to make the playoffs. Right? Hmmm....

MavKikiNYC
03-01-2004, 01:38 PM
If the NYKs, currently at 26-35 can't pull at least 36 wins and an 8th-seed playoff spot out of this season, then by all rights Thomas should be fired on the spot, crated up, rolled across 8th Ave to the post office and sent the hell back to wherever he slithered in from.

They are competing with the sorry likes of Toronto, Cleveland, Philly, Miami and Boston, for the 6,7, 8 spots, and if they can't put some distance between them and at least three of those teams, then David Stern needs to launch an investigation. Their schedule lightens up here for the final 21 games, with only 2 games against Western Conference teams--and weaker ones at that in Portland and Memphis. OTOH, they also only have 10 homegames.

The media seem to've noticed that things aren't going so swimmingly, and Starbury's 5 point (2-8 shooting), 9 turnover, 10 assist performance in yesterday's loss to the Nugs was screamin' butt-ugly. But a lot of the hardest-core NYK posters on the board I read seem plenty willing to give Zeke and open-ended account to fail, without ever asking when the payoffs are going to begin. Sooner or later, those people are going to have to get over their Layden-hating, and then they're going to look up and realize what a hole Zeke as left them in. It's coming, but they're not there yet. But for now, the entertainment has to come from watching Zeke's mess start to run down his leg, and to watch the hypocrisy of NYKs fans, who're having to pretend not to notice.

TheBaron
03-01-2004, 02:14 PM
http://www.cora.nwra.com/~meyer/gallery/Wile%20E%20Coyote.jpg

Buh-bye NY

Dooby
03-01-2004, 02:18 PM
There is nothing more dangerous than the sense of entitlement in sports.

Male30Dan
03-01-2004, 03:29 PM
You guys are so funny... When they were rolling every last one of you would not TOUCH this thread... And here you come running when they start losing some games... Well you wont see me run... This team will make the playoffs and beat whoever they play in the first round... KG and Baron/whoever else will have to drop their head, swallow that lump in their throat, and then take a lump out of their accounts to pay me and this board when this is all over... But go ahead and trash this team when it has its downs... Just dont forget humility and accountability when they have their ups...

TheBaron
03-01-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by: Male22Dan
You guys are so funny... When they were rolling every last one of you would not TOUCH this thread... And here you come running when they start losing some games... Well you wont see me run... This team will make the playoffs and beat whoever they play in the first round... KG and Baron/whoever else will have to drop their head, swallow that lump in their throat, and then take a lump out of their accounts to pay me and this board when this is all over... But go ahead and trash this team when it has its downs... Just dont forget humility and accountability when they have their ups...

You sound confident, Male22.

All teams experience a honeymoon period where things look rosey, but now that everyone is settled we are seeing blowouts regularly and a trend of playing no defense (which is what Isaiah Thomas said he wanted most). That is a bad sign for a team that is nine games under .500 with a healthy team.


Just dont forget humility and accountability when they have their ups

I hope you won't either.


This team will make the playoffs and beat whoever they play in the first round

Dear God, that is a horrible bet. Can I get in on that? They are vying for the 6,7 and 8 spots in the East which isnt a big feat (they are 6 games out of 5th place so unless there is a meltdown up top they wont see that) so they are competing with Philadelphia, Boston, Cleveland, Toronto, Philadelphia, and Miami (all within one and a half games of the three playoff spots for sub-.500 teams. Even if they turn around the 1-7 stand since the allstar break and preserve their place in the 6th spot they will face either Indiana, Detroit or New Jersey (Right now its New Jersey). Do you honestly think they will beat the only 3 Eastern playoff powers?

Can I put some money on that? I have paypal so it will be easy to transfer the cash.

BTW I wasnt even around when the thread started. A little research?

kg_veteran
03-01-2004, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by: Male22Dan
You guys are so funny... When they were rolling every last one of you would not TOUCH this thread...

Nice attempt at revising history, but completely untrue. I made the bet with you when they were really "rolling". In fact, I had to listen to you and several others tell me how wrong I was. Here's a quote that I made that day:

Also, I know it's really impressive that the Knicks have now SURGED to four games UNDER .500 (23-27), but how impressive will it be when they go about 3-7 over the next 10? (If you don't believe me, take a look at their schedule.)

Don't believe the hype from the Fastbreak boys, Dan. The Knicks are still a very mediocre team.

That was on 2-4-04, and oddly enough, over the next 10 games they went 3-7. And they're still a very mediocre team. I guess maybe ol' KG knew what he was talking about...

EricaLubarsky
03-01-2004, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
You guys are so funny... When they were rolling every last one of you would not TOUCH this thread...

Nice attempt at revising history, but completely untrue. I made the bet with you when they were really "rolling". In fact, I had to listen to you and several others tell me how wrong I was. Here's a quote that I made that day:

Also, I know it's really impressive that the Knicks have now SURGED to four games UNDER .500 (23-27), but how impressive will it be when they go about 3-7 over the next 10? (If you don't believe me, take a look at their schedule.)

Don't believe the hype from the Fastbreak boys, Dan. The Knicks are still a very mediocre team.

That was on 2-4-04, and oddly enough, over the next 10 games they went 3-7. And they're still a very mediocre team. I guess maybe ol' KG knew what he was talking about...

Doesnt KG always know what he's talking about? I've disagreed with him more than once and all I can say is that I ended up embarassed after discovering he was actually right nearly every time. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Male30Dan
03-04-2004, 01:49 PM
Nope... KG knows nothing... i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

He is simply lucky...

And as for Baron... I already told you I would place a bet with you... Read above after you requested it the first time...

Lets make it official... I have a total of 100 dollars in bets going for this... 50 to KG, (25 to him and 25 to the board) and now 50 to Baron, (same stipulations)...

And KG... I was referring to EVERYONE else regarding people disappearing when the Knicks were winning... I know you were around because we were going at it the whole time...

Its just like when the Mavs win and lose... People are so funny with their knee-jerking... You know, I think these mavs went through a pretty tough stretch there at the beginning of the year too when they were trying to learn each other... But now that NY makes all of these trades, you expect everyone to be comftorable with each other... Hypocrites is what the majority of you are... You say "GIVE DALLAS TIME TO GEL" then say "NY SUCKS BECAUSE THEY ARENT WINNING" I call bullshit!!!

*Steps off of soapbox* i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Bottom line is that NY has a lot of talent... Baron eagerly wanted to get in on the bet with the KNOWN FACT that NY couldnt beat NJ, (the team they are currently paired up with if the season ended today). But I think NY matches up with any team in the Eastern Conference EXCEPT Indiana, (but Artest injured could put NY over them). New Jersey scares me a bit, (the running game hurts NY, but I still think they can win a series with them). Detroit beats themselves, (with Wallace, who knows), and I am not scared of any other team in the East. This means that if NY gets Detroit, I guarantee a series win... If they get Indiana, it will likely be me paying the money... And if they get NJ, it could go either way!!!

I still say they are better than their record, (a lot of new pieces that have to gel - again, see the mavericks). When the playoffs roll around, and Houston is healthy again, and everyone has time to learn the nuances of each players' game, I think you will be suprised by their results...

This is a team that when focused, and really going at it with D, could actually make it to the Conference Semi's... Do I think they will? Nope, but I think they lose a tough second round matchup with Indiana...

MavKikiNYC
03-25-2004, 07:21 AM
And the NYKs' slide continues. NY press is putting some serious burn on Lenny for some questionable decisions in late-game management that ended in NYK losses.

I have nothing against Lenny Wilkens, but I think his best coaching days are at least 5 years behind him. He's doing about the same job with this talent that Don Chaney was doing with HIS group--same mistakes, same inability to motivate, same inability to avoid player injuries, all of which just goes to highlight the petty nature of Thomas's shameful, disgraceful treatment of Chaney.

What is becoming clear (and will become clearer yet, though there's little hope, let alone 'guarantee' that the Dolan's will see anytime soon) is that Thomas is in WAY over his head. He's got a huge mess in the making, and he deserves the same harsh treatment and tough judgment that Layden got. Thomas' acquisition of an injury-prone player like Tim Thomas and mortgaging of the team's future by acquiring a player like Marbury, who isn't good enough to turn the NYKs around, are PLENTY justification for firing his loser a$$.

Let's do it.


GRIZZLIES 110, KNICKS 97
Bad News Keeps Mounting as Knicks Fall to Grizzlies
By DAVE CALDWELL

Published: March 25, 2004


Two white-haired basketball patriarchs ambled up to each other at midcourt before the Knicks played the Memphis Grizzlies last night. Memphis Coach Hubie Brown, 70, and Knicks Coach Lenny Wilkens, 66, smiled, embraced, then chatted warmly.

It was a moment in National Basketball Association history: a matchup of the two oldest coaches ever. Then the game started, and Brown showed no compassion for Wilkens. The Grizzlies tore apart the injury-plagued Knicks, 111-97, at Madison Square Garden.

The good news for the Knicks is that the regular season lasts only 10 more games. The Knicks (33-39) could have jumped into sixth place in the Eastern Conference with a victory and a Miami loss, but the Heat (34-37) beat Orlando.

The Knicks lead eighth-place Cleveland (31-39) by one game. Ninth-place Boston (31-40) trails the Knicks by a game and a half.

"We were too anxious," Wilkens said. "We shot ourselves in the foot."

Allan Houston missed his fourth straight game with a contusion of his left quadriceps muscle. Tim Thomas missed his second straight game with a strained right groin muscle. Neither is expected to play tomorrow against Toronto.

"We can't feel sorry for ourselves — things happen," said Penny Hardaway, who played despite a strained right groin and scored 9 points in 31 minutes.

The presence of Houston and Thomas might not have made a difference. Memphis (45-26), which is fifth in the Western Conference, was clearly more talented and cohesive than the Knicks.

Brown, the former Knicks coach, has not lost much energy. With Memphis leading by 21 points, Brown hollered at the Grizzlies to make a defensive stop. They did.

<u>"We are not a post-up team; we are more of a finesse team," Brown said. "So we have to get out on the break. So that is why we play the defense that we do."</u> (Editorial note from a follower of the Dallas Mavericks: Wow! Playing defense in order to generate transition offense in order to make up for a lack of a low-post game? What an interesting idea!)

Brown, stoop-shouldered and hoarse, has coached the Grizzlies to 11 victories in their last 13 games. He has Memphis playing passionate defense. The Grizzlies, who played Tuesday, hounded the Knicks into 19 turnovers, which led to 27 Memphis points.

Brown even had enough time to admonish a Knicks fan who razzed Memphis forward Shane Battier late in the game. Brown pointed to the fan and said, "We all should have children as good as this kid."

Stephon Marbury made only 9 of 23 shots and had 5 turnovers, 4 in a rough-and-tumble first half that ended with the Grizzlies leading by 20 points. Memphis led by 91-63 after Stromile Swift's layup with 42 seconds left in the third quarter.

"When you don't have your big guns out there, you have to take care of the ball," Marbury said.

The Knicks struggled even at the start, missing their first five shots and turning the ball over twice. The Grizzlies' aggressiveness rattled the Knicks into making mistakes even when no one was around.

With four and a half minutes left in the first quarter, Marbury flung an unchallenged pass downcourt that hit the sideline.

"A lot of people tend to forget this is one of the top teams in the West," Kurt Thomas said. "They have been playing exceptionally well since the All-Star break. They came out and controlled the tempo."

Memphis forward Pau Gasol, who led the Grizzlies with 23 points, followed Marbury's bad pass by hitting a layup. Thomas fouled him, and Gasol hit the free throw. That gave the Grizzlies a 19-11 lead, and the Knicks dissolved.

Swift then stole a pass from Marbury. Grizzlies guard Jason Williams pounded the ball downcourt and flipped a pass backward with his right hand to Gasol at the last possible moment.

Gasol followed with a ferocious dunk, and Wilkens called a timeout. Vin Baker, the Knicks' reserve forward, contributed a blocked shot and a rebound in the next 90 seconds, but then Marbury threw the ball away again. The fans groaned.

"You cannot play catch-up without all those guys," Marbury said.

The Knicks were booed at the end of the first quarter, and the Grizzlies scored the first 9 points of the second. The Knicks' possessions ended with a turnover, a missed shot, another turnover, another missed shot and a third turnover.

Battier sank a 3-point shot a half-second before the buzzer to give the Grizzlies a 65-45 lead. The shot was reviewed, but Battier got it off in plenty of time.

"We had the shots we wanted," Hardaway said. "We just didn't make them."

Wilkens was pleased that his team did not give up, but the 14-point deficit at the end of the game was the narrowest margin since the last minute of the first quarter.

"If we win games, we are in the playoffs," the Knicks' Nazr Mohammed said. "We can't look at other teams, because that is when you will get in trouble."

Max Power
04-07-2004, 10:57 PM
Wednesday, April 07

The Knicks qualified for the playoffs when Memphis beat Cleveland 92-74.

MavKikiNYC
04-08-2004, 12:06 AM
Tells you how low the Eastern Conference has fallen.

Male30Dan
04-19-2004, 07:35 AM
Man this is bullshit...

No Houston and now likely no Thomas...

When I said they had a lot of talent, that was assuming their second stringers were going to be second stringers, not starters...

Eh well, a bet is a bet...

GO NY, (but only for the first round)!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

MavKikiNYC
04-19-2004, 08:24 AM
Zeke's gotta go.

Definitely deserves to be fired.

He's thrown the team's future away, and he's not one bit better at managing injuries than Layden was. (...Okay that injury part was a joke....okay, half a joke. But Layden got reamed unfairly for things beyond his control.)

They skank into the playoffs in an historically bad year for the (L)Eastern Conference, with a record that would NOT have even QUALIFED last year. And they're just about to find out that no matter how many times he hugs Lenny Wilkens or kisses Zeke's ass, Starbury doesn't have the stones for the Big Time.

Meanwhile, the Pacers, with a REAL coach but also with an arguably LESS-talented team than last year, set a team record for wins, dominate the (L)Eastern Conference, and look like they could be a tough matchup for the Western Conference survivor.

Go figure.

kingrex
04-19-2004, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
Zeke's gotta go.

Definitely deserves to be fired.

He's thrown the team's future away, and he's not one bit better at managing injuries than Layden was. (...Okay that injury part was a joke....okay, half a joke. But Layden got reamed unfairly for things beyond his control.)

They skank into the playoffs in an historically bad year for the (L)Eastern Conference, with a record that would NOT have even QUALIFED last year. And they're just about to find out that no matter how many times he hugs Lenny Wilkens or kisses Zeke's ass, Starbury doesn't have the stones for the Big Time.

Meanwhile, the Pacers, with a REAL coach but also with an arguably LESS-talented team than last year, set a team record for wins, dominate the (L)Eastern Conference, and look like they could be a tough matchup for the Western Conference survivor.

Go figure.

I understand your disgust. However, I would try to give Thomas a little more slack (maybe enought to hang himself) because as GM you need at least 3 or 4 seasons to really start building a team. This is his first year and he's already brought some A-level talent to the Knicks.

Give it some time and especially in the Eastern Conference, this team will have a better chance next year.

Oh by the way, I agree with you they need a better coach.i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

kingrex
04-19-2004, 09:23 AM
the dreaded double post

MavKikiNYC
04-22-2004, 10:34 AM
This is hilarious. Anyone see TT on TNT the other night where he shot his mouth off? It was priceless. First of all, he went off on Jason Collins, for what was a hard foul, but not a dirty foul (IMO). Then, he went off on K-Mart who basically had nothing to do with the play. Then he went off about how he was disappointed that none of his teammates backed him up on the play. Uhm.....TT, I think that means they DON'T have your back....they DON'T like you enough to incur a fine and/or suspension. Zeke has just slapped so many spare parts together that don't particularly fit, that there's not really any particular chemistry or bond.

TThomas was hilarious though. You could just see him getting disoriented by the sea of microphones and cameras in front of him, and he kept going on and on about what he was going to do. You could see in his eyes that he didn't have any idea what he was saying, or when to stop talking. He just kept on, talking bigger and bigger.

That's another problem--Thomas has put together some fragile, LOW-IQ "talent" like Tim Thomas, and Marbury. And he deserves to be judged as harshly for his managerial mistakes as Layden was for his. No free passes.

Let the talk of lynch-mobs begin.

TIM THOMAS CALLS FOR REVENGE VS. NETS

By MARC BERMAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
April 22, 2004 -- A furious Tim Thomas has all but put a bounty on the Nets' heads.
In an unprecedented diatribe, Thomas repeatedly challenged his Knick teammates to retaliate tonight in Game 3 at the Garden, saying he hopes they take out a Net like he was taken out last Saturday in Game 1 while airborne for a dunk.

In his first comments since being knocked out of the Lincoln Tunnel Series by a controversial foul by Jason Collins, Thomas also slammed Kenyon Martin, calling him a "fake tough guy" and saying repeatedly he was a "fugazy" - an Italian slang reference for fake jewelry.

"My goal is just to get back out there on the court and go hit somebody," Thomas said. "That's it. That's all I'm looking forward to do. What's been done to me is going to be done to them."

Thomas' explosive remarks at yesterday's practice inflamed the situation tenfold as the Knicks host their first playoff game tonight in three years, trailing 0-2 and needing a victory more than a gang war.

"Nobody's really responded," Thomas said. "I'm just waiting for somebody to do something. I'm going to be all right off the court. My concern is on the court how we respond."

Told he's calling for an act that could affect somebody's livelihood, Thomas shot back, "Nobody cares [about me] on their behalf. I've been hearing all kind of talk. It's easy. As it's been done to me, it could be done to them. I'm just waiting to see how they respond."

But Thomas, who is out tonight and likely out for the series with a back and bruised ankle, wants payback, saying he is disappointed nothing has happened yet despite Dikembe Mutombo's declaration of war.

"Definitely," Thomas said. "Deep down inside it hurts. This is the time of year, it's war. At that time, when I was laying on the floor, I expected somebody to do something, to push or shove anybody. It never happened. But we still got two games left and I'm still waiting to see what's going to happen.

"I don't care if it was Moochie [Norris] or Frank [Williams]. In that situation, you've got to respond. You have to. They understand what it is. It's now just a matter of who's going to do what. My teammates still have time."

NBA disciplinarian Stu Jackson said he was "disturbed"by Thoams' remarks, and the sensitive Martin certainly will be steaming about Thomas questioning his toughness.

"I just think he's fugazy all around, he's a fugazy guy," Thomas said. "He's fugazy as far as the whole tough-guy role. You get fined. That makes you tough? Because you're game is wild and crazy? That makes you tough. For a guy to have a wild game to get technicals and fines. That makes you tough? Why? Somebody call Don King and look it up.

"It's just fugazy. When a scuffle breaks out you have 13 guys to protect you. When it's you and somebody else, what happens next? He's a pitbull who picks and chooses who to fight."

The Knicks believe Thomas is just blowing off steam, angry he may not play again until training camp.

Lenny Wilkens said Thomas is "frustrated" but added, "I think none of the players has forgotten what happened to him."

NYCdog
04-22-2004, 12:55 PM
Knick fan here............I've seen and read through this thread for quite awhile and have been silent long enough. Time to go on the defenseive..........


Then he went off about how he was disappointed that none of his teammates backed him up on the play. Uhm.....TT, I think that means they DON'T have your back....they DON'T like you enough to incur a fine and/or suspension. Zeke has just slapped so many spare parts together that don't particularly fit, that there's not really any particular chemistry or bond.

Let me ask you something.............Do you honestly think that from Feb 15 to now was enough time to build chemistry for this team?

As many Mav fans here know, it took the Mavs nearly half the damn season to find a bit of chemistry. It takes some teams even longer.

With all the moves Zeke has made through this season, I didn’t really expect that much, if any, chemistry to exist between the players on this team. If you did, that tells me you have never played a team sport that required playing a length of time equivelent to regular seasons in certain sports. Just because you cobble together good or bad parts doesn’t mean chemistry will exist between them immediately overnight. That takes time to build. Give this team a whole season together and I guarantee you they will have it and stick up for each other.


That's another problem--Thomas has put together some fragile, LOW-IQ "talent" like Tim Thomas, and Marbury. And he deserves to be judged as harshly for his managerial mistakes as Layden was for his. No free passes.

1.........If Marbs is such a fragile "talent" then how did he become the heart and soul of the Suns last season? According to your assessment, they should have crashed and burned with Marbs instead of push the eventual champs Spurs to the brink in the playoffs.

2.........If this team was so fragile, then they shouldn’t have been in the playoffs to begin with.

Think about it........A fragile team spiraling downward late in the season, playing in the biggest, most pressure packed media market in the country with teams following close behind them should have "caved in" to the pressure and missed the playoffs.

But this fragile team pulled it together in March instead of panicking. For that, their now in the playoffs. For that, they shouldn’t be considered as fragile.

3.........True, Zeke deserves to be judged as harshly for his managerial mistakes as Layden was for his. All general managers deserved to be judged on the same scale........its only fair.

But there's a big difference between Zeke's performance and Layden that your missing...........Layden made no successful moves at all during his tenure. Zeke's got one to his credit True, I agree Zeke might have made one too many moves and that the TT deal wasn’t a good one.

But you have to admit, Zeke's deal for Marbury breathed life into what was at the time, a life-less franchise. Before that deal, any talk of making the playoffs was totally absurd as the team presently had a 14-23 record. Since Marbs was acquired, this team hasn’t been the same. They've been much better to watch and stomach then that crap Layden assembled together and called a team.

In my view, your being way too harsh on Zeke. You forget that Layden created this whole mess from top to bottom, not Zeke. For Zeke to manage to turn this franchise around and actually make the playoffs, is an accomplishment that deserves a "free pass" in itself. Because this team definitely wasn’t making the playoffs before Zeke got here, regardless of how weak and pathetic the East is.

Furthermore, you haven’t even given Zeke nearly enough time to totally clean up this mess up. You say Zeke should be judged the same way as Layden was. Well Zeke should be entitled to have the same 5 years Layden miraculously had to either successfully clear this mess up or fail and create an even bigger nightmare. But you haven’t even given Zeke half-a-season to prove himself.

I'm reserving my judgment of Zeke for next season so I can see what moves he makes this off-season and see what it conspires to on the court. I think you should do the same and give the man a damn chance.

MavKikiNYC
04-22-2004, 02:15 PM
Time to go on the defenseive..........

If only the NYKs could.

So many words, so much BS. Typical.

I'll dissect it as time permits.

NYCdog
04-22-2004, 05:38 PM
If only the NYKs could.

So many words, so much BS. Typical.

I'll dissect it as time permits.


Kiki........

The only BS I see is this weak and lame excuse as provided by you.

"You'll dissect as time permits."

If you had the time to come up with this creative pathetic BS post, obviously you had more then enough time to bless us with more of your insightfull analysis and "dissect" my post. Once again Grade A Texas-style BS from you..........

Lets face it. We all know why your obviously stalling. Cause you need all the time in the world to try and dissect and prove wrong my defense of Zeke as GM.........which this statement below sums up


Because this team definitely wasn’t making the playoffs before Zeke got here, regardless of how weak and pathetic the East is.

Take all the time in the world cause there's no way you can prove this wrong.

If your willing to tell me that this Knick franchise or any other franchise, including the Mavs, is better off having Scott Layden as their General Manager, once again I call BS.

And if you cant tell me that, before you waste any more of your time, just leave the BS at home. Nuff said.

madape
04-22-2004, 05:45 PM
NYCDog - get used the losing. It's going to be a long time before this team is decent again.

Thomas held a garage sale this year and sold the team's future for a pile of dirty beans. It's hard to imagine a worse series of moves for a rebuilding team. For one, he's buiding the Knicks around Marbury - a feat three franchises have already tried to do, all failing miserably. Marbury very well could be the leagues worst franchise player. Thanks to Thomas, the Knicks are locked into him. They can't aquire another premier player. They likewise won't be able to trade him. And without draft picks or cap flexibility, they won't be able to add pieces around this piece of shit. What you see now is what you'll see for the next five years - a stinking turd of a team. The Knicks now have less talent than they did two years ago. Most importantly, Zeke has put the franchise in a position in which they won't be able to improve for years and years and years. How depressing it would be to be a Knick fan.

NYCdog
04-22-2004, 07:08 PM
I understand what your getting at MadApe......

But I'm not yet convinced that Marbury is that bad of a player to not build around him.

I know why most of you think he's not a good player to build around. Its that conception of him being a ball hog, yet he's second in the NBA with assists. That isnt consistent with the description of a ball hog.

Most people usually follow that up with something along the lines of.........

"I don't care what his assist totals are. He wants the ball in his hands all the time, especially late in the game.......yada yada yada"

My response.........That shouldnt make him a ballhog. A point guard is supposed to have the ball in his hands, he runs the damn show, sets up the plays. Marbury doesnt just do that alone, he has the ability and can take over a game too, especially when its needed. That's part of him wanting to and being a leader, as he was in Phoenix. Most polayers who are considered as team leaders usually do that. They put the team on there back and carry them to victory when its needed. That's what sometimes makes player great. See Jordan, Bird, Olajuwon, Shaq...........

And BTW, your wrong about one thing........Three teams havent tried to build around Marbury.

Minnesota certainly didnt, they were building around Garnett. And once Marbs was gone, KG complained and said many of times that he wanted Marbury on his team, he liked his style of play. After Marbs left Minny, it took them a while to find a point guard they could settle with to keep KG happy. That was finally accomplished when the got Sam Cassell, just to keep KG in town. You have to admit, when Minny got rid of Marbury, they took a step in the wrong direction and went backwards until Garnett complained about the lack of a supporting cast last season.

In NJ, the Nets did try to build around Marbury and Keith Van Horn tandem but it just didnt fit or work with that team. There were flashes of impending brilliance on occasions but injuries seemed to be that teams downfall. Thus they were never able to play healthy all together on the court for much time to gain that chemistry that makes teams great.

But his tenure with the Suns makes me believe he is not as bad as some of you think he is. At first things didnt get off to a great start in the 01-02 season as many considered the resurgent Nets as the clear-cut early victors in the deal, particularly after New Jersey advanced to the 2002 NBA Finals. But a year later, few shared that same assessment. In the 02-03 season Marbury emerged as the young team’s leader, a team that was predicted to finish in last place. That team emerged as a suprise playoff contender, one that pushed SA to the brink of a playoff upset. Marbury's presence and leadership gave the Suns and their fans a lot of reasons to believe their team was indeed headed in the right direction. It also proved that like every other player, if you surround Marbury with the right group of players, he and the team together could shine.

EDIT.......forgot the last part.

And now look at what Marbs arrival in NYC has done for the Knicks. This team was in complete shambles with 14-23 record at the time. Like I said earlier, no one in this city in their right mind was thinking about the Knicks making the playoffs at the time. And now look at them, in the playoffs might I add. I never thought I would say that for a decade.

I'm actually proud to say that I'm a Knicks fan now. I can actually take the bag off my head and hope for the immediate future. That's what Marbury's addition has done for this team and its TRUE fans.

And for the record.........I dont care if we sold the future of this team for Marbury. Besides its not like Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Milos Vujanic, and Charlie Ward, were the future of this team anyways. It was Maciej Lampe and the 2004 first rounder we gave up. I wasnt to high on Lampe being our future team leader anyways.........

And to those who say it will be a long time before the Knicks are respectable...........it isnt that long until summer time and the NBA offseason. And you guys definitely know that Zeke will have something up his sleave to satisfy the New York faithfull.

So just face the facts fellas'.......were not going away and settling for building for the future. And we certainly wont be lottery bound for a long time to come either. The future is now. Go Knicks Go!!!!!!!!!

MavKikiNYC
04-22-2004, 09:16 PM
1) Chemistry--

You're conceding my point here, aren't you. Whether you or I or anyone else EXPECTED them to have chemistry (and obviously they do not), from the beginning IThomas promised a competitive team that would be capable of performing in the playoffs.

And it's not enough to offer the excuse that they need time to build; and 'gel'--that's what Layden spent the last 2-3 years offering. As loud-mouthed New Yorkers are so fond of pointing out, "This is New York, baby. No time to wait. Win now." The question is not whether the NYKs would be better under Layden, but rather how the bloody hell they ended up WORSE OFF with Thomas. The NYKs had slogged through to where they were able to begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel of salary cap hell. And then came Thomas.

Opinion was divided after the trade for Marbury, but it's becoming clearer that the NYKs aren't going to be anywhere near as good as Thomas promised in the short-term. And that's BEFORE being able to assess the final cost of this deal by seeing what Phoenix does with Lampe, Vujanic, the draft pick, and the cap room from Dice's contract. The NYKs have Marbruy and no cap room. Most informed observers are calling this Advantage: Suns.

So it's not really going out on a limb for you to "guarantee that this team will stick up for each other." Who cares. Can they contend? Not any time soon.

2) Marbury--

The heart and soul of the Suns? Laughable. So how come the Suns up and traded "the heart and soul" of their team the first chance they got? Colangelo recognized after 2 short seasons that he wasn't dealing with a franchise player, that Marbury isn't good enough to carry a team, and so he dumped him on the emininetly dupable I.Thomas, who needed a ticket-selling scam. That's what Zeke needed, that's what he got. The problem is that he got it at the expense of the long-term future of the team.

You think this team "pulled it together" this year to make the playoffs? Laughable. 39 wins? Only one of the worst seasons in history for the Eastern Conference lets 39 wins into the playoffs. And this pathetic bunch "pulled it together" to the tune of a 14-16 record over their last 30 games, with 22 of those games coming against Eastern Conference teams. That's "pulling it together"? That's barely even keeping it together. That's pathetic.

Marbury isn't now and won't ever be capable of carrying a championship team. It's a question of mentality and temperment, not physical talent. He was unable to co-exist with a talent of the magnitude of Kevin Garnett earlier in his career. Why? Mentality and temperment.

He was LOATHED by teammates and team officials alike in Jersey. He didn't lead that team, he dragged it. He was an absolute failure to make teammates better, and in fact, his attitude and demeanor made KVH a WORSE player.

He may've reached the apex of his career in Phoenix with players like Marion and Stoudamire. And if you want to call that blind-luck bank shot at the buzzer against the Spurs in Game 1 last year "championship mettle", well, go ahead. But it sounds just as absurd as trying to claim that they "..pushed the Spurs to the brink...". After Marbury's G1 sucker-punch gave them a 1-pt victory, they were only able to manage one other 2-point win, while along the way losing by 8, 13, 12 and 2. Brink, schmink--...maybe out in Queens.

But maybe that's where you should keep your 'fugazy' smack-talk. You post way too much to say way too little, and much of that is demonstrably wrong. Check tonight's Net v. NYK result for a real-time update of how far Starbury can take a team. It's looking more and more like they're going to go out in 4, and if they lay down like the dogs they are in G4, they will have given up a possible lottery pick for one semi-exciting playoff game in the Garden. That's a damned poor ROI.

So you and all those NYK fans who want to keep your noses pressed up into IThomas's a$$, "..givin' the man a damn chance...", you can eat his $hit all you want and call it chicken salad---...but that 0-3 stink against the Nets ain't comin' from no chicken salad.

So eat up, Buttercup.

NYCdog
04-24-2004, 10:19 PM
) Chemistry--

You're conceding my point here, aren't you. Whether you or I or anyone else EXPECTED them to have chemistry (and obviously they do not), from the beginning IThomas promised a competitive team that would be capable of performing in the playoffs.

And it's not enough to offer the excuse that they need time to build; and 'gel'--that's what Layden spent the last 2-3 years offering. As loud-mouthed New Yorkers are so fond of pointing out, "This is New York, baby. No time to wait. Win now." The question is not whether the NYKs would be better under Layden, but rather how the bloody hell they ended up WORSE OFF with Thomas. The NYKs had slogged through to where they were able to begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel of salary cap hell. And then came Thomas.

Opinion was divided after the trade for Marbury, but it's becoming clearer that the NYKs aren't going to be anywhere near as good as Thomas promised in the short-term. And that's BEFORE being able to assess the final cost of this deal by seeing what Phoenix does with Lampe, Vujanic, the draft pick, and the cap room from Dice's contract. The NYKs have Marbruy and no cap room. Most informed observers are calling this Advantage: Suns.

So it's not really going out on a limb for you to "guarantee that this team will stick up for each other." Who cares. Can they contend? Not any time soon.

You talk about me conceding your point..........I guess your also conceding my point as well.......

"This is New York, baby. No time to wait. Win now."........thank you Kiki, that was exactly my point.

In New York, you can't expect to start from scratch. The fans simply won't stand for the pain of a rebuilding project given the price of tickets. We want a team that can compete today, not two years from now.

So in this case, would it have been a good move to go for more cap room and rebuild this franchise?

Considering that the locals wouldnt have been to happy about rebuilding again as we have been doing for the past couple of seasons, probably not. And considering this year's free agent class (Kobe, Sheed), probably not. And Besides, you cant rebuild when you have the contracts of Allan Houston and Shandon Anderson anyways, all given to us by your man Layden.

That's why Thomas pulled the trigger on the Marbury deal, to immediately appease the demands of the local media and the fans. And its worked as the Knicks are now back in the playoffs.

And as for your conception of seeing the light at the end of the salary cap tunnel...............That's just the "bling" of Allan Houston's new Movado watch that he bought, courtesy of that fat contract he still has but doesnt really earn with the Knicks (Again Layden's doing). And Dont forget Shandon Anderson's contract either. Both those deals have 3yrs left. So much for salary cap freedom being so close.

In fact, we've been in this salary cap situation since Layden tried to divide Ewing's huge contract into several smaller but longer deals. Rather than simply allowing Ewing's enormous contract to run out, Layden acquired three role players (Luc Longley, Glen Rice and Travis Knight) with long-term contracts that tied up all the team's cap room. And when those guys didn't work out, they were shipped out for other role players with hidieous long-term contracts – Anderson, Keith Van Horn and Howard Eisley.

And note this, while Layden made no positive moves in his tenure, its not like all the players Isiah has brought in are bad players. All of the player he has brought in (Nazr, TThomas and Marbury) have been our team leaders this season. In fact, they could have been the last few seasons if they were here as well. If you followed the Knicks like I do, you would have known that. Hell, every single stinkin night, Nazr, TThomas and Marbury have to carry this team to victory.

All of Isiah's moves have worked. The Knicks have made the playoffs and I'm sure everyone saw and felt the energy that was in the Garden the other night. And despite the way this series has gone, I'm not conviced this a a bad team filled with bad players. Give this team a training camp and some time playing together to build chemistry, as well as good health (that means you Allan Houston, Kurt Thomas) and this team can compete and do well in the East. In the East, that is all you need to contend for a shot at the title........

So compared to the Layden era and its lackluster results, how is this franchise worse off with Isiah?


) 2) Marbury--

The heart and soul of the Suns? Laughable. So how come the Suns up and traded "the heart and soul" of their team the first chance they got? Colangelo recognized after 2 short seasons that he wasn't dealing with a franchise player, that Marbury isn't good enough to carry a team, and so he dumped him on the emininetly dupable I.Thomas, who needed a ticket-selling scam. That's what Zeke needed, that's what he got. The problem is that he got it at the expense of the long-term future of the team.

You think this team "pulled it together" this year to make the playoffs? Laughable. 39 wins? Only one of the worst seasons in history for the Eastern Conference lets 39 wins into the playoffs. And this pathetic bunch "pulled it together" to the tune of a 14-16 record over their last 30 games, with 22 of those games coming against Eastern Conference teams. That's "pulling it together"? That's barely even keeping it together. That's pathetic.

Marbury isn't now and won't ever be capable of carrying a championship team. It's a question of mentality and temperment, not physical talent. He was unable to co-exist with a talent of the magnitude of Kevin Garnett earlier in his career. Why? Mentality and temperment.

He was LOATHED by teammates and team officials alike in Jersey. He didn't lead that team, he dragged it. He was an absolute failure to make teammates better, and in fact, his attitude and demeanor made KVH a WORSE player.

He may've reached the apex of his career in Phoenix with players like Marion and Stoudamire. And if you want to call that blind-luck bank shot at the buzzer against the Spurs in Game 1 last year "championship mettle", well, go ahead. But it sounds just as absurd as trying to claim that they "..pushed the Spurs to the brink...". After Marbury's G1 sucker-punch gave them a 1-pt victory, they were only able to manage one other 2-point win, while along the way losing by 8, 13, 12 and 2. Brink, schmink--...maybe out in Queens.

But maybe that's where you should keep your 'fugazy' smack-talk. You post way too much to say way too little, and much of that is demonstrably wrong. Check tonight's Net v. NYK result for a real-time update of how far Starbury can take a team. It's looking more and more like they're going to go out in 4, and if they lay down like the dogs they are in G4, they will have given up a possible lottery pick for one semi-exciting playoff game in the Garden. That's a damned poor ROI.

So you and all those NYK fans who want to keep your noses pressed up into IThomas's a$$, "..givin' the man a damn chance...", you can eat his $hit all you want and call it chicken salad---...but that 0-3 stink against the Nets ain't comin' from no chicken salad.

So eat up, Buttercup.


1............Most Suns fans are still asking why did the Suns trade away the leader and the heart and soul of a young and up-in-coming team.

2............How did they pull it together to make the playoffs?

See the end of Feburary..........After a horrible stretch like that, given the pressure and stress they face daily from us New Yorkers, it would have been easy for this team to take there ball and go home. But despite the record down the stretch not being pretty, they got the damn job done and made the playoffs.

3............I didnt need to check the Nets v. Knicks real-time update, I was watching the game. And despite him not making some shots, Steph did what he needed to do as he scored 10 of his 18 pts in the 4th quarter and stepped up, trying to lead this team to victory. Everyone saw it. Even brain-dead John Thompson doing commentary saw and mentioned it several times in the 4th quarter. If even he can see that, I'm sure you had to.[/b] And they almost pulled the game out. But let's fact it, they were under manned in this whole series, as they were tonight being without Allan Houston and TThomas. The Knicks and Marbs need Houston playing becuase they double team the heck out of Marbs. Marbs needs a good shooter by him to punish those double-teams. With Houston in the lineup, who knows how things would turn out for them.

Point is, like most other great players, if you surround Marbury with talent, he'll show you how far he can take a team.

Leave Marbury with no talent around him and you'll have the same situation Tracy McGrady has in Orlando, producing the same exact results.

4....... I'll gladly take this stinkin "Chicken Salad" Isiah Thomas is feeding me any day compared to the shit Layden tried to force-feed us with for the past 5 seasons.

MavKikiNYC
04-25-2004, 08:08 AM
Glad to see you've worked through your grief.

Fraud.

NYCdog
04-25-2004, 07:32 PM
Glad to see you've worked through your grief.

Fraud.


Since you want to air out our nasty laundry that was in the PM's, I guess that leaves me no choice........

Heh, Puh-lease. After your critical comments regarding my feelings of Pat Tillman's death, both me and you know who the real fraud is here........so I suggest you take down that ribbon you sport as your avatar. Any real patriot would have felt the same way as I did. And I'm sure alot of other people here might feel the same about you if they are as patriotic about their country as I am..........

But I guess we'll never really know how they feel cause your too chicken shit to post those comments of yours. Maybe it’s because of the fear that you know people here on this board might turn this forum into a "wieney roast" session featuring you as the main course for your comments.

So before you get angry and impulsively decide to post your comments as I know you will.........choose wisely, cause your reputation is on the line.........

And BTW, if your going to take a shot at me regarding the way I felt upon hearing the news of Tillman's death, <u>why in the bloody hell would you do it here in the "Knicks to the Lottery" thread?</u>

Oh, why did I even ask that.........I already knew the answer, duh.

1.......Cause you knew if you dared try and post that garbage in the "Tillman's death" thread, D-M.com would have turned into a Hawaiian Luau, with you being the flaming pig.

2.......Just like you did earlier in this thread, its just another creative "one-liner" excuse by Shakespeare himself to try and reply my post......now your trying to change the topic in hopes of pissing me off.

Well, its not working........your just humoring me, that's all.

But I do suggest, in the effort to keep this grand discussion on track, that you keep any further posts in the context of this thread instead of destroying it with your off-topic garbage. Stick to Knicks basketball.......that is if you know anything about it.

FYI..........And as for my grief, its all for you now considering how pathetic of a soul you truly are.

EricaLubarsky
04-25-2004, 10:34 PM
BTW

Knicks made it into the playoffs as losers and were swept out of the first round as losers. If the knicks were in the west they certainly would have been lottery fodder.

MavKikiNYC
04-26-2004, 07:01 AM
And BTW, if your going to take a shot at me regarding the way I felt upon hearing the news of Tillman's death, why in the bloody hell would you do it here in the "Knicks to the Lottery" thread?

I was wondering the same thing about why you mentioned this thread in your cheesy "tribute" to Pat Tillman--Text (http://www.dallas-mavs.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=30&threadid=16543)

Anything I have said was directed to you and you alone, and as it was fairly impolite, I elected not to subject the rest of the board to it.

For polite public consumption: You, NYCDog, are a grandstanding fake, slobbering about how you were so grief-stricken by an athlete's death that you could not engage in petty chatboard bickering. Then you did it anyway.

And to make matters worse, you put the man's picture in YOUR signature, as if you can somehow co-opt HIS heroism and patriotism. From everything I've read about the man, he would NOT be flattered by this type of cheap, airhead fan gesture, and to the extent that you are promoting him above the hundreds of other people who have given their lives in this war, you almost certainly do both Pat Tillman and the other soliders a dishonor. ( Re. Pat Tillman (http://www.dallas-mavs.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=4&threadid=16541))

I find your using his picture to be in very poor taste.

MavKikiNYC
04-26-2004, 07:19 AM
Stick to Knicks basketball.......that is if you know anything about it.

Okay, as for NYKs basketball,
http://www.dobhran.com/images2/housecleaning-broom.gif

madape
04-26-2004, 09:13 AM
Great post-season showing by the Knicks. Thier fans have a lot to be proud of.

kg_veteran
04-26-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by: madape
Great post-season showing by the Knicks. Thier fans have a lot to be proud of.

Isiah has really made them into a contending force in the East.

BTW, pay up, Dan. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

kingrex
04-26-2004, 10:02 AM
Nobody should be too surprised at the outcome of the Knicks-Nets series. This year's Knicks is an unfinished product. Isaiah has more moves to make, and I'd watch-out for this team next year in the East.

madape
04-26-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by: kingrex
Nobody should be too surprised at the outcome of the Knicks-Nets series. This year's Knicks is an unfinished product. Isaiah has more moves to make, and I'd watch-out for this team next year in the East.

Yeah, with all that cap room and all the draft picks Isiah has stocked up, how could this team possibly not improve?

NYCdog
04-26-2004, 12:27 PM
Nobody should be too surprised at the outcome of the Knicks-Nets series. This year's Knicks is an unfinished product. Isaiah has more moves to make, and I'd watch-out for this team next year in the East.

Finally an intelligent comment..........this hits my point right on the mark. Thanks Kingrex........

And personally, even though they got swept out, I'm proud of my Knicks. Compared to the Celts, atleast the Knicks showed some heart and fought to make games 3 and 4 close. They didnt get punked and blown out on their home court like the Celts did. This Knick team fighting to win definitely made me proud. We just lost to a better team. Compared to what Layden has put this franchise and its fans through, I can accept that.

Bottom line is that our organization needed a new direction. Not just an addition or two, but new young players to bring life to this team, a new coach who brings years of experience, a whole complete a new direction compared to the dumpster Layden had this franchise stuck in.

With Zeke we have that and I for one, am very optimistic.

Hell, since Zeke arrived, we've even been a franchise with a winning record (29-25 since Zeke came in) - and that record covers additional moves which required adjustment.

Winning record........that's something this franchise failed to reach under Layden's reign of terror.

True, financially we're not in good shape, thanks in most part to Layden. But its not as bad as other teams. How do you think Bulls fans feel...there cap space is being taken up by Antonio Davis, and Eddie Robinson...hell even Scottie Pippen is just eating money for nothing. Or how about the Magic...they have a ton of cap space tied up in a guy, Grant Hill, who hasn't played in forever and probably will never play again. And you thought the Knicks had it bad......atleast cap space is being taken up by players who can produce for this team.

I think there's an immeasurable value in letting a team play together for a while. I think we have a team I and most other Knick fans would like to see gel and improve for the tuture. And in a few years TT, Hardaway and Houston (and maybe Anderson) will be tradable or can walk and to open up 40-50 million dollars in cap space. By then, this franchise will definitely be back to its winning ways.

And given that we reside in this pathetic Eastern Conference, we can definitely make some damage in the near future. We have potential for success. With Layden as GM, we never had that. That alone makes this franchise better off with Zeke manning the ship.

madape
04-26-2004, 12:43 PM
Battle cry for Knicks fans - "We're not as bad as the Celtics!"
Great, that puts you among the priveledged 28 NBA teams who are in a better position than the Celtics.

Battle cry #2 - "We're better off than we were under Layden"
That's like comparing being in a toilet to being in a garbage can. At least you're not in the toilet.

Regarding Layden, at least he had the balls to decide to rebuld the team around youth. Isiah prefers to keep them below .500 until the end of time.

kg_veteran
04-26-2004, 01:18 PM
I'm sure our friend NYCDog is counting on Rasheed to come and be the savior of the NYKs.

I've got news for him and all the other Knicks fans. A starting lineup of Wallace, K. Thomas, T. Thomas, A. Houston, and S. Marbury ain't good enough to get past the Nets, Pacers, or Pistons. And there are some upcoming teams in the East -- the Knicks just aren't one of them.

Sorry.

OutletPass
04-26-2004, 01:27 PM
Sheed is no sure thing to go to the knicks either...

dirno2000
04-26-2004, 01:31 PM
I don't know that Lenny Wilkens is the right coach for that team, or really any team at this stage in his career. I do think that a lineup of Marburry, Houston, Thomas, Thomas and Wallace matches up with any in the East. This being said, Rasheed isn't a done deal and I don't know if Allan Houston will ever be the same.

On an unrelated note, Kenyon Martin is a beast and he improves his game every year. I wonder if NJ will max him out now.

NYCdog
04-26-2004, 01:46 PM
Anything I have said was directed to you and you alone, and as it was fairly impolite, I elected not to subject the rest of the board to it.

Geez, I wonder why..........it was fairly impolite to whom?

I'm sure alot of people might have thought it impolite period, regardless of whom it was meant for.

That's just more BS excuses from you and you know it. There's no way you can really logically defend yourself (other then post mre BS)

So if you can't post it..........drop the whole bit and leave the petty excuses at home. Nuff said.


For polite public consumption: You, NYCDog, are a grandstanding fake, slobbering about how you were so grief-stricken by an athlete's death that you could not engage in petty chatboard bickering. Then you did it anyway.

"For polite public consumption"...............Hahaha, look at you desperately trying to back track. And you talk about me trying to show a sensitive side. Now your the one doing it, trying to kiss everyone arse with this pathetic garbage. If only you could have ginven me the same "polite public consumption" regarding the way I felt about someone's death. I cant believe your trying to argue this........

"I could not engage in chatboard bickering".........I didnt mean forever, genius. Just that day. It didnt seem appriopriate. The news of Tillman's death made every other topic and news story seem petty. And true to my words, that was my only post that entire day. Do some research..........


And to make matters worse, you put the man's picture in YOUR signature, as if you can somehow co-opt HIS heroism and patriotism. From everything I've read about the man, he would NOT be flattered by this type of cheap, airhead fan gesture, and to the extent that you are promoting him above the hundreds of other people who have given their lives in this war, you almost certainly do both Pat Tillman and the other soliders a dishonor. ( Re. Pat Tillman)

I find your using his picture to be in very poor taste.


I understand what you are getting at here..........he's not the only solider who's been killed in action.

But I feel the same way about all of our soldiers. Tillman's situation just puts a face on this all because of his high profile status gained due to his sacrifice. It represents all of those brave soldiers who have made the same sacrifice as Tillman did.

That's why I choose to use his pic as my sig......to not only honor Tillman, but to honor all soldiers for there incredible sacrifice they have made to defend our country.

I didn’t think I would have to explain that to you. I thought you would have been smart enough to figure out that on your own. I guess I was wrong...........your a completely brain-less scumbag.

And furthermore, if your gonna blast me for the way I feel on this, then I guess you have some other people to blast as well. Its pretty obvious that in your haste to get back at me, when you posted the "Re:Tillman" thread, that you didn’t take the time to read the comments posted in the thread. Otherwise you would have noticed others had just about the same feelings as I did on this subject.........

XERXES At the very top of the thread.........

This guys courage has been an inspiration to me

MFF

I salute him with my heart and soul.

Others posted comments that were similar to these. In fact, I'm surte if you went to any other forum, most of the comments regarding Tillman's death would have been the same.

So if your going to continue to bash myself for they way I felt, then you gotta do the same to some others just to stay true to your words.

In fact, I challenge you to do it. Givem' all the same crap you spewed at me in the PM's.

And if your too yellow to do that, it then become pretty obvious all of this done by you is just to get back at me, try and make me look bad, or what ever other diabolical plan you have in mind for me.

kg_veteran
04-26-2004, 02:20 PM
Take the bickering to PMs, guys.

MavKikiNYC
04-26-2004, 02:24 PM
Retooled Knicks Still Missing Some Gadgets
By CLIFTON BROWN

Published: April 26, 2004

About 30 minutes after the Knicks were swept last night, their team president, Isiah Thomas, stood in the hallway outside the locker room and assessed his team and the Nets.

"Give them their due," Thomas said, referring to the Nets. "They're very good. Sometimes you have to get your nose bloodied a little bit to get where you want to go. That's what we experienced in this series."

The Nets advanced to the second round of the N.B.A. playoffs after last night's 100-94 victory completed their first-round sweep, and the Knicks looked forward to vacations. The Knicks had no answer for Kenyon Martin, the Nets' All-Star forward, who dominated with a career-high 36 points and 13 rebounds in an inspiring performance.

Martin made sure the Nets did not lose last night, but the Knicks were doomed in this series for many reasons. The Nets have more talent. The Nets' core group has been together much longer. And without Allan Houston (knee) and Tim Thomas (back and ankle), the Knicks lacked the offensive firepower to upset the Nets, the defending Eastern Conference champions.

Thomas, who was injured in Game 1 after a hard foul by Nets center Jason Collins, was asked if he still had hard feelings.

"Of course," he said. He was in uniform last night but was still too injured to play. "They had no one on that team to guard me. They knew that going in." [Fugazy alert.]

Even if Tim Thomas had remained healthy, the Nets would have remained heavy favorites. The Knicks had their best performance of the series last night, and when a 3-pointer by Frank Williams gave them an 85-79 lead with 6 minutes 52 seconds remaining, the Madison Square Garden crowd was making plenty of noise and it appeared the Knicks might extend their season. But the Nets called a timeout, ran off 7 consecutive points to take the lead, then held Knicks to just two field goals the rest of the game.

Vin Baker (12 points) had his best game of the series, Penny Hardaway (17 points) was effective and Stephon Marbury (31 points) did his best to carry the Knicks' offense.

When Isiah Thomas took over as team president in December, he retooled the roster with bold moves, upgrading the talent level and giving the Knicks a better chance to make the postseason. But facing the Nets gave the Knicks a clearer idea of how far they are from being a championship contender.

"It's hard for me, I am not a good loser," Coach Lenny Wilkens said. [Will have plenty of opportunities to improve at losing.]"I thought tonight we could win this game, but they had a little too much for us. When we got ahead, we didn't sustain. Sometimes it takes teams a year or two to really learn one another, and we tried to do it in three months. We got to the playoffs when everyone thought we wouldn't. We got beat by a better team."

It will be interesting to see what changes Thomas makes to the Knicks during the off-season. Baker is a free agent, Marbury is an explosive player to build around, and the Knicks have to hope that Houston is healthier next year.

Houston admitted he was tempted to try to play on his sore knee, and watching the Nets lose from the bench was difficult.

"I wanted to be out there, but I had to be smart," Houston said. "We worked very hard to get the playoffs, and we deserve some credit. We stuck together, nobody pointed fingers, and that can be tough to do here. Now instead of thinking about getting back into the playoffs next year, we can think about coming back and getting more familiar with each other, and reaching another level."

But for this year, the Knicks had to settle for being the first step in the Nets' playoff run. It was not what the Knicks had planned. But the Nets were simply too good.

"Hopefully we'll be better next year," said Baker, who said that he hoped to return. "We've got the whole off-season to think about things."

NYCdog
04-26-2004, 02:35 PM
Battle cry for Knicks fans - "We're not as bad as the Celtics!"
Great, that puts you among the priveledged 28 NBA teams who are in a better position than the Celtics.

Battle cry #2 - "We're better off than we were under Layden"
That's like comparing being in a toilet to being in a garbage can. At least you're not in the toilet.

Regarding Layden, at least he had the balls to decide to rebuld the team around youth. Isiah prefers to keep them below .500 until the end of time.

Atleast all of those are better then our past battle cries under the Layden administration........to refresh your memory, the last two seasons battle cries as authored by us, the Knick faithfull......

Battle cry 2001-02 season

"Top pick, here we come!"
"Yao will lead the Knicks to the promise land"
"How did we not get the top pick? We were robbed!"

Battle cry 2002-03 season

"Top pick, here we come!"
"LeBron will lead the Knicks to the promise land"
"How did we not get the top pick? We were robbed!"


I'm sure our friend NYCDog is counting on Rasheed to come and be the savior of the NYKs.

I've got news for him and all the other Knicks fans. A starting lineup of Wallace, K. Thomas, T. Thomas, A. Houston, and S. Marbury ain't good enough to get past the Nets, Pacers, or Pistons. And there are some upcoming teams in the East -- the Knicks just aren't one of them.

Sorry.

No I'm not counting on Sheed' to bring his services (basketball as well as drug related) to the Knicks. I think its pretty much set in stone that he will stay in Detroit. They can offer a larger MLE then we can for one thing........


I don't know that Lenny Wilkens is the right coach for that team, or really any team at this stage in his career. I do think that a lineup of Marburry, Houston, Thomas, Thomas and Wallace matches up with any in the East. This being said, Rasheed isn't a done deal and I don't know if Allan Houston will ever be the same.

On an unrelated note, Kenyon Martin is a beast and he improves his game every year. I wonder if NJ will max him out now.

1.........Your right, Lenny, long term wise, isnt the right coach for this team. He's just a temporary caretaker in mind. But I wouldnt be suprised if Isiah himself all of a sudden feels an urge to coach again. If Zeke is truly wise, he won't do it as if he fails at coaching, it would then run the team into the ground, thus running his tenure as GM of the Knicks into the ground as well.

2.........I'm not sure if Houston will ever be the same. But if he hopefully is, his presence combined with Marbs could make our backcourt one of the best in the East.

3........Kenyon Martin, in my mind, could be playing his last days in the Tri-State area. I feel he might end up in Dallas for three reasons.......

a........he is from Dallas
b........the Mavs might offer him a better shot at the title
c........we all know how much Cuban loves adding big names to his team

I can see a sign and trade happening, with Jamison and maybe Finley heading to NJ. Not sure if that would work salary cap wise, but you guys can figure up all that stuff and possible trade scenario's to make it happen..........

MavKikiNYC
04-26-2004, 02:36 PM
ISIAH'S KNICKS STILL HAVE LONG WAY TO GO
April 26, 2004 --


THE Knicks' first postseason appearance in three springs was over quicker than a Richard Jefferson first step down the baseline, earlier than the Nets' release for a Jason Kidd pass on the break.

Four games passed by even faster than Isiah Thomas can assume credit. The Knicks hung in there again last night until predictably hanging themselves with a hurried Stephon Marbury jack and missed free throws down the stretch, going to summer with congratulations for showing up, kudos that are handed out only in cases where a team has been overmatched.

This was, Thomas told us repeatedly in so many words, just for practice, the President in Charge of Presenting Himself As a Visionary reminding us how you have to lose before you can win, as his Pistons finally did over the humps presented by the Celtics and Lakers.

Isiah leaves out the part where the Knicks only won a headache banging their heads repeatedly on Michael Jordan's wall. And how, while the Magic waited for maturity, Shaquille O'Neal was waiting for money in a bigger market before the franchise finally got tired of waiting for Penny Hardaway to fully heal.

Two springs ago, Boston seemed set for a long run with the requisite two stars, Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker, but now is down to just Pierce and a collection of junk. John Calipari's Nets planted a flag in eighth place, but were 3-18 the next season when he got fired.

When a team has the real goods, there are indeed, playoff rites of passage through the bad, but this Knick team is hardly as young and on its way as its creator and house-cleaner represents it. The most promising thing in this series was the play of Frank Williams, [a Layden draftee] who at times defended Kidd well and had 11 points and four assists in 31 worthwhile minutes last night, even if he, too, went cold down the stretch.

"There will be a tremendous benefit for us for next year from this," said Lenny Wilkens, throwing in the competitive minutes he got from Michael Sweetney [another Layden draftee], too.

If only we were so convinced that an undersized big forward and a backup point guard were going to continue to take a 39-win team (give it 42 if Allan Houston had stayed available) like the Knicks up any ladder.

Abbreviated as it was, this was [injury prone} Tim Thomas's fifth trip to the playoffs, [overrated] Marbury's fourth. [Has-been]Hardaway is 32 years old; Kurt Thomas, at 31, is still getting technicals for temper tantrums; and [Layden mistake]Shandon Anderson is 30. Houston, unable to play because of chronic knee problems (and whose contract was NOT one of Layden's mistakes), is 32, the same age as the demonized Vin (Budeweiser) Baker, who faces a long way back to what he never really had become.

Sweetney, who grabbed three rebounds and hit two free throws in eight minutes, needs to lose at least 10 pounds, which is possible, and gain a couple inches, which isn't. Nazr Mohammad's toughness remains in question to everybody except Isiah, who maintains he got a steal, but really has more reason to be excited about Scott Layden's final two No. 1 picks, Williams and Sweetney, than about anything picked up after Marbury (who many consider overrated).

"I feel like I can go to the summer with my head high," said Williams, who, largely buried before the December makeovers, earned his self-esteem. But, unless Houston doesn't make it back and Marbury moves to the two, Williams still is the backup. And the Knicks need a lot more to move forward than just Houston coming back good as new - like a low-post scoring threat and a more constant presence from Tim Thomas than he ever gave Milwaukee. (!!!)

After Marbury, the Knicks have a bunch of guys who should be backups on good teams, and were starters and contributors on a first-round sweep victim. Whatever players just passing through learned about playoff competition is a lot less relevant that what Thomas hopefully learned these last eight days about how far away the Knicks really are.

kg_veteran
04-26-2004, 02:44 PM
After Marbury, the Knicks have a bunch of guys who should be backups on good teams, and were starters and contributors on a first-round sweep victim. Whatever players just passing through learned about playoff competition is a lot less relevant that what Thomas hopefully learned these last eight days about how far away the Knicks really are.

I think Allan Houston still has some game left, but this is a pretty telling and accurate statement.

MavKikiNYC
04-26-2004, 02:48 PM
Knicks: Not a big selling point

Knicks won't get very far on Marbury's star power
Monday, April 26, 2004
BY DAVE D'ALESSANDRO
Star-Ledger Staff

NEW YORK -- This was good for the Nets, no matter how many times you wanted to throw your adult beverage at the screen last night. Admit it: Throughout much of the second half, you were ready to chastise them as fakes, upbraid them for not squashing the Knicks into a fine powder, and for not showing the killer instinct that Indiana and San Antonio have demonstrated with such gusto.

But these pulse-beaters serve a purpose, and tell the unvarnished truth about a team by the way it manages the pressure of the last two minutes, especially on the road. The Nets took the Knicks' best punch, and never fell. If you think that was easy, you had to be at the Garden last night, where they survived a 100-94 challenge that gave them a sense of what lies ahead.

The Knicks, meanwhile, waited until the last 24 minutes to play up to their potential, and it was almost worth the wait. They actually outplayed the Nets for most of the game, surfing along on a competitive fever that spread to every last guy in uniform.

It was remarkable, really. Vin (And Tonic) Baker went from 10th man to go-to guy, which only makes you wonder where he's been all this time. Frank Williams gave them moxie. Kurt Thomas had a terrific first half, before Kenyon Martin used him as a speed bump. Stephon Marbury put up his usual big numbers, before helping the Nets escape by launching a series of mindless 3-pointers when his team had the lead and the momentum.

Still, it was a spirited departure from their first postseason in three years. It didn't earn them anything but internal platitudes -- "Our play had a tremendous benefit that next year will show," Lenny Wilkens said -- but at least they played with the desperation of a team on its way to the exit.

What took so long? Nobody knows. Will they really benefit? Better question.

This is the part where you want to read that this is just the start of things, but it's hard to share that sentiment. The Knicks were never really as good as they would have you believe (with or without Allan Houston and Tim Thomas) and the truth is, they may never be anything better than a first-round team in the foreseeable future.

Marbury is neither the leader nor achiever the Knicks make him out to be, and that won't change unless he a) gets some mates who don't resent his selfish tendencies; or b) the Knicks give up on him as his last two teams did, and stop relying on unconventional rebuilding methods, such as letting 6-1 shooters have their run of the joint.

Of course, a lot changes if Isiah Thomas can persuade Rasheed Wallace to play for $16 million over the next three years, but if that's the kind of guy you want to root for, help yourself.

Either way, Knicks fans will file in, lemmings-like, regardless of who plays, because they are mesmerized by Thomas' salesmanship. Karl Rove has nothing on Zeke. Funny, though: Only in New York can a team go from 37 victories to 39, trade away two promising European teenagers, mortgage the future by shipping out two first-round draft picks, get wiped out in the first round ... and have their GM promote it as progress. (Oh, preach, Dave D, preach.....)

What do they really have? A 27-year-old point guard who has never won a playoff series, never had any positive effect on his team at large and probably never will shake his image of being a selfish player. (Been sayin' it myself for 2+ years.)

Speaking of Marbury, this was a red-letter day for him. Before tipoff, he learned that one guy he had been traded for was named to the All-NBA first team; then he learned that another guy he had been traded for was named to the All-NBA second team. (Irony, bitter irony.)

Not a flattering set of circumstances. Jason Kidd is moving on, and Sam Cassell is two victories from moving on, but Marbury is going home to sell some video games with his tattooed image plastered all over the box cover. We trust it will be a lucrative summer for him.

The Nets are going to Detroit or Milwaukee, but they'll be comfortable either way. In both places, unlike New York, substance trumps style every time.

MavKikiNYC
04-26-2004, 02:50 PM
Gosh.

It looks like the local sports press doesn't think too highly of what I, Thomas has slapped together.

If the 2003-04 NYKs were a Broadway show, they'd be closed by now. In fact, they are.

NYCdog
04-26-2004, 03:44 PM
Gosh.

It looks like the local sports press doesn't think too highly of what I, Thomas has slapped together.

If the 2003-04 NYKs were a Broadway show, they'd be closed by now. In fact, they are.


Heh, you act like articles from the local sports media are the word of Nostradamus.

I hope you dont put too much stock into what our local media says. They just go with the flow, when the team is on a high note, they author all the kindest things in the world. When the team is down, they kick them. And they only do this because we the fans do it as well. They feel these writings will satisify the fans.

Case in point, most of these guys were also the same one's praising Isiah's arrival and his moves earlier in the season.

I'll still hold out my judgement on Zeke until next season, when he has had a chance to try and make some moves this off-season and this team has a chance to gel together. By then, we can determine what kind of product we've got with Zeke.

And if I'm wrong about Zeke, I'll gladly eat crow for it..........

kg_veteran
04-26-2004, 03:57 PM
And if I'm wrong about Zeke, I'll gladly eat crow for it..........

Glad to hear that. I have a feeling there's going to be a hefty supply of crow...i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

MavKikiNYC
04-26-2004, 04:18 PM
It's rare, actually, for all of the NY sports scribes to be singing in such harmony. At least one of them usually tries to toady up to the NYKs functionary du jour, staying in good graces to keep the "insider" quotes coming. But today, all of the major pens are panning Zeke's posse.

[Edited for civility.]

One more perspective.

No defense for Knick plan
Mitch Lawrence, NYDaily News

One final game. One final malfunction for the Knicks. It all came apart last night, just where you thought it would. It didn't matter if Scott Layden was running this team, or Isiah Thomas. It didn't matter if Don Chaney was coaching this team, or Lenny Wilkens. It didn't matter if Howard Eisley was the point guard, or Stephon Marbury.

All year long, the Knicks were a suspect, soft and small defensive team. And that's where the malfunction occurred at the Garden last night, time after time as the Knicks were swept into summer and what should be a whirlwind offseason. Today, they are free to catch the Queen Mary for an extended summer cruise after they meekly surrendered 31 fourth-quarter points in their 100-94 defeat.

Isiah Thomas can talk all he wants about trying to win a championship. But if he doesn't demand significant improvements at the defensive end in 2005, the Knicks are not going anywhere in the future.

Standing in the tunnel and looking on as the Nets constantly ravaged his team's undersized interior for dunks and layups and easy point-blank baskets in the final 12 minutes, he must have flashed back to his playing days. The Bad Boys made a name for themselves and hung two championship banners by getting fourth-quarter stops. These Knicks turned Kenyon Martin into Tim Duncan.

The Nets put away the Knicks by hitting nine of 17 shots in the fourth (53%) and getting to the line for 13 more points. For the series, the Knicks allowed the Nets to make 48% of their shots and average 96.8 ppg. Those kind of figures will get you swept every time.

Don't get us wrong. The Knicks were not supposed to win this series. We all know that. The Nets had Jason Kidd, Martin and Richard Jefferson, giving them the top three players in the series. But for the Knicks to fail to make anything resembling a stand at the defensive end ... well, it certainly isn't the '90s anymore, now is it?

Pat Riley and Jeff Van Gundy left the building and must have taken all the defensive blueprints with them. All the tough interior defenders are long gone, too. You think the Nets didn't notice?

"We know defense wins, but you've got to be able to score, too," Aaron Williams said. "Every time we went down inside, we were able to come away with something. We've got guys like Kenyon and Jason Kidd who can post you up and score."

The Nets should have it so easy the next round, against what promises to be a showdown with Detroit's two formidable Wallaces, Ben and Rasheed.

"Our plan was to go inside and attack the basket," said Jason Collins. "Coach told us that to start the fourth quarter. But he had been telling us to do it all night, starting before the game."

But Lawrence Frank didn't get the results he was looking for until the fourth quarter, after Stephon Marbury tried to deliver a knockout punch with way too much time left. There was an eternity to play - 6:52 - after Marbury found Frank Williams for a three-pointer to put the Knicks up 85-79.

The next two possessions, Marbury did what he's always been known to do. He tried to shoot his team to a win with a couple of threes, when the Knicks would have been better off if he had continued to set up other players and pick his spots. It didn't do anything for his reputation or his playoff record, which now stands at 4-14, with four first-round exits.

But like he's said all along about the playoffs, "It's a learning experience for all of us."

Lesson No. 1: Defense wins. After Marbury's misses, the Nets went right at the Knicks and right at the basket. Where was Dikembe Mutombo? Benched in his final game as a Knick. Where was Isiah Thomas' favorite big man, Nazr Mohammed? Parked near Mutombo.

In the fourth, Vin Baker helped the Knicks go from five points down to up six, but Lenny Wilkens made the mistake of staying with Baker after the Knicks took the lead and when his team needed defense. Compounding the mistake, guess who was assigned to stop Martin? Right. Baker.

Hello, mismatch.

"I just tried to be a force we needed down low," said Martin, who scored 13 of his 36 in the final quarter. "I saw Zo (Alonzo Mourning) over there and that gave me some extra motivation to get this win for him. He's fallen to the Knicks so many times in his career."

But that was in a different era. That was when defense was in vogue at the Garden.

Originally published on April 26, 2004

NYCdog
04-26-2004, 04:31 PM
It's rare, actually, for all of the NY sports scribes to be singing in such harmony.

Actually, I beg to differ, its not that rare.........

In fact, there all singing the same tune about the Yanks, right now.

Just ask Jeter and A-Rod.

Oh BTW, last I checked, Flatbush wasn't in Queens.

MavKikiNYC
04-26-2004, 04:41 PM
Ah Flatbush (http://www.dallas-mavs.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=4&threadid=16605). Even better.

Here's an update on another Brooklyn success story--a big mouth, who overpromises and underdelivers, who mistakes quantity for quality, and who shoots too early at money time. Marbury, that is, of course.

SPORTS OF THE TIMES
No Platitudes Can Hide Grimaces of Marbury
By IRA BERKOW

Published: April 26, 2004

IT was an auspicious duel last night, and, if you could afford the outrageous prices, was alone worth the price of admission. Here were two of the finest point guards in basketball going at it in a game that would either send the Nets into the second round of the playoffs, or keep the hanging-by-the-thread hopes of the Knicks alive.

Here was Jason Kidd, who throws kisses at the basket and dishes the sweetest passes this side of Magic Johnson, and there was Stephon Marbury, with mustache, tattoos, black shiny shoes and a lust to avoid a sweep by the Nets — and with something to prove, as well.

Although the Knicks, down by three games to none in the four-of-seven-game first-round series, played with heart, the Nets were, as Knicks Coach Lenny Wilkens said after the game, "a little too much for us."

Not one of the Knicks starters could probably beat out any of the Nets' starters — Kidd, for one, was just named to his fifth all-N.B.A. first team while Marbury is a notch or so below.

But after being blown out in the first game by 24 points and in the second by 18, the Knicks made it competitive at the Garden, losing by 3 points and last night by 6, 100-94. Last night's game was closer than even that score indicates, and it was close because Kidd and Marbury, who led their teams with skill and determination, particularly made it so.

Although Kenyon Martin was an immovable object as well as an irresistible force, scoring 36 points and taking down 13 rebounds, it was Kidd making deft pick-and-roll passes as he cut to the hoop that regularly set him up.

And Marbury, his face grim with resolve, stepped up his game in the tight second half, after having faltered in the second half in each of the previous three games. He was bent on not letting himself be stymied by either the double- and triple-teams that collapsed on him or even the gluey man-to-man that Kidd inflicted on him in the fourth quarter.

Marbury wound up with 31 points — Kidd had 20 — and, like Kidd, added seven assists. But statistics can prevaricate. For Marbury, like Kidd, moved the ball with a mastery that opened other possibilities that don't show up in the box score.

But a difference in the two was highlighted by an air ball shot too quickly by Marbury with 6.9 seconds to go and the Knicks within striking distance. Marbury was, it seemed, trying unnecessarily to shoulder too much of the burden — not trusting his teammates quite enough. "I thought the shot was a little too quick," Wilkens acknowledged.

It's true that Kidd has a much more talented supporting cast. It's true that Marbury desperately missed not having Allan Houston, out with a knee injury, and Tim Thomas, out with back spasms, hanging on the periphery and ready to catch a dish from the paint.

"It's tough," Marbury said before the game, alluding to his ailing comrades. After the game, he said about his best 3-point shooters watching the entire game from the bench, "It changes things dramatically."

And none of the other Knicks with outside shooting possibilities — Penny Hardaway, with 17 points; Kurt Thomas, with 14; Frank Williams, with 11; and Shandon Anderson, with 4 — could make up for that loss.

For Marbury, particularly, this has been more than a dismal playoff series. He must feel a sense of embarrassment, whether he admits it or not.

He's from Coney Island, and had said his dream was to play for the Knicks, and to take the team to the playoffs — in Madison Square Garden, where he sat high in the stands to watch the Knicks as a lad and where he played in high school and college, and later as a pro.

And it has to be particularly galling that it was the crossriver Nets who were administering this drubbing. Not only because they were natural rivals, but also because Marbury had been traded from the Nets to Phoenix before the 2001-2 season for Kidd. In fact, whether he admits it or not, it is human nature for Marbury to be especially competitive with Kidd.

Kidd, meanwhile, has taken the Nets to the finals twice. Marbury, traded earlier this season from the Suns to the Knicks, has never won a playoff series.

Of course, the Knicks are a team in transition. It's probable that everyone on the team except for Marbury is expendable. When Isiah Thomas took over as team president last December, he said the goal this season was to make the playoffs, which the Knicks hadn't done since 2001. With the trade for, and the indispensable help of, a maturing Marbury, they indeed made the playoffs. Thomas was swift enough not to predict how far they would go. His brain is certainly whirling with trade and draft-pick and free-agent issues. We may even find Thomas on the bench, replacing Wilkens.

So, naturally, the bright side of the picture for the Knicks is, as they used to say in Brooklyn, wait till next year. This year gave a glimmer, but glimmers, history tells us, can be deceiving.

MavKikiNYC
04-26-2004, 05:16 PM
&lt;Doubling over with laughter on my way back from the NYK boards...&gt;

They're talking about Mutombo, KT and Frank Williams for Antoine Friggin' Walkuh, and they're sure, COCKSURE, that it'll be a talent upgrade.

NYCdog
04-27-2004, 11:20 AM
They're talking about Mutombo, KT and Frank Williams for Antoine Friggin' Walkuh, and they're sure, COCKSURE, that it'll be a talent upgrade.

Your a very bad liar........I'm "COCKSURE" about that.

What board you be hanging out in.............as far as I know, in the NYKfanpage.com thread (where I assume you picked this up and span it into your own story) a Knick fan who was a "newbie" asked some Mav fans in the ESPN board if there would be any trades they would like to involve Kurt Thomas in, since he is from Dallas. This deal was the one all the Mav fans seemed to like so he posted here to see what Knick fans would think about it.

Basically it was one of those wild pipe-dream trade scenarios that "newbies" always love to dream up every once in a while............

The Knick Nation collectively blasted any such deal for "FAToine" Walkuh, but they did seem interested if it was for Antwan Jamison. Only one guy said he would do the Walker deal simply because they could then let Walker walk next offseason and this would be the opportunity to get rid of Sandon Anderson and the 4 yrs that remain left. Basically allowing us to ret rid of our long trem garbage for the Mavs short term garbage.

check it out for yourself (http://nykfanpage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4116)

Nice try though, kid. Us Knick fans arent that stupid........... i/expressions/rolleye.gif

MavKikiNYC
04-27-2004, 12:14 PM
Your a very bad liar........I'm "COCKSURE" about that.

I doubt you have as much "sureness" or "cock" as you let on.


Let's make a deal. If I copy and link the postings here, will you agree not to post until the NYKs win a championship? Do you have a big enough half-testicle to take that that bet? I doubt it. Put your money where your mouth is, but keep your lips out of my pocket.

If you're not man enough to take that bet, then at least be smart enough not to call people liars. I'm plenty willing to walk away from this thing before you get your weak a$$ suspended, but you don't have enough of any thought-processing organ to take the hint.

So either take the bet and take a hike, or cease and desist from responding to anything I post.

Man enough?

MavKikiNYC
04-27-2004, 12:28 PM
By the way, are you really honoring Tillman by having his picture in this kind of back-and-forth?

Think about it.

NYCdog
04-27-2004, 01:12 PM
Let's make a deal. If I copy and link the postings here, will you agree not to post until the NYKs win a championship? Do you have a big enough half-testicle to take that that bet? I doubt it. Put your money where your mouth is, but keep your lips out of my pocket.

If you're not man enough to take that bet, then at least be smart enough not to call people liars. I'm plenty willing to walk away from this thing before you get your weak a$$ suspended, but you don't have enough of any thought-processing organ to take the hint.

So either take the bet and take a hike, or cease and desist from responding to anything I post.

Man enough?


Some bet........You really just want me gone, that's all.

I'm not leavin and your not making me.

I really doubt I will be suspended since I havent really done anything wrong accept respond to your posts and numerous attempts at dissing me, some of which are off-topic and ruining this thread........

And as for me calling you a liar.........I call it like I see it. I knew this was the thread at nykfanpage.com that you were alluding to. You said as I recall......


They're talking about Mutombo, KT and Frank Williams for Antoine Friggin' Walkuh, and they're sure, COCKSURE, that it'll be a talent upgrade.

I posted evidence (a link to the actual thread) to prove otherwise....that you were lying. Hey, you can't be mad at me. I call it like I see it.......

The only way that you can prove that are telling truth is to post the thread where you got this from. And if you cant do that, we all will know the real truth...........


By the way, are you really honoring Tillman by having his picture in this kind of back-and-forth?

Well, your the one making a big deal about me honoring Tillman and our soldiers.

I cant really fathom why......unless say if your an Iraqi national or something and it offends you in that way.

I'm not gonna let that bother me though, as I know in my heart the real purpose of my tribute. I'm sure others here and around the U.S. can understand why I do this as well......

And as for being man enough.......I'm more then willing to be the bigger man and just walk away from all of this.........that is if you can be man enough to do the same.

MavKikiNYC
04-27-2004, 01:31 PM
And as for me calling you a liar.........I call it like I see it. I knew this was the thread at nykfanpage.com that you were alluding to. You said as I recall......

You just made a big, gaping ass of yourself, and are showing yourself to be nothing but a loud-mouthed punk.

You're wrong--wrong board, wrong post. So the link you post is meaningless. You're just mouthing off without a scintilla of proof. You're calling me a liar, but you're not man enough to accept the terms of proof.

I repeat: There is a trade proposal on a NYKs fan chat forum that suggests trading KT/Mutombo for Walker, with a followup proposal suggesting adding Frank Williams, with the expressed belief that such a trade would represent a talent upgrade for the NYKs.

Will you accept proof of this proposal and agree not to continue littering this board and insulting other posters?

Or will you continue to cower like a 110-pound punk, spewing off inane half-insults in semi-literate English?

Either way, you're left with zero cred.

P.S.: Taking hedge bets via PM that s/he won't take the bet.

MavKikiNYC
04-27-2004, 01:33 PM
To Stage Revival, Marbury Needs a Supporting Cast
By HARVEY ARATON

Published: April 27, 2004


GREENBURGH, N.Y.

FIRST by trade, now by tunnel, he has become bound to the best point guard there is. Stephon Marbury, a man of many moves, will not easily free himself from Jason Kidd.

Kidd, who makes everyone better and proved himself, again, to be Marbury's superior in the Nets' four-game sweep of the Knicks. Who has now directed the Nets to seven consecutive Eastern Conference playoff series victories, and counting. Marbury came home this season to Madison Square Garden, to the stage he has always wanted, but it was Kidd who reminded us which point man has better command of a leading role, even as he settles for Off Off Broadway.

"He knows how to break the defense down, how to make the game easy for the other guys," Marbury said less than 24 hours after the Nets ended the N.B.A. portion of the Garden season. "But when you play with each other for two, three years, you just know."

This was the echo inside the Knicks' practice facility yesterday, as player after player emerged from season exit meetings with the team president, Isiah Thomas, to cite the collective experience factor. It sounded logical, acceptable, except Kidd could argue that it took all of one season for him to mesh with the Nets and go all the way to the N.B.A. finals.

The Nets may not be in Brooklyn anytime soon but, counting Kidd, they have three players whom any sane general manager would take before the Coney Island-bred Marbury. Considering the Knicks' prospects for significant improvement this summer, Marbury is not soon likely to have a Richard Jefferson, a Kenyon Martin, the kind of running mates Kidd lucked into.

It is serendipity, after all, from the players' point of view, although it can, for better or worse, also be the residue of design. Marbury came into the N.B.A. looking at a chance for a Stockton-Malone recreation with the emerging Kevin Garnett in Minnesota. Coexistence proved difficult for Marbury, and now Sam Cassell, another shot-happy point guard who did time with the Nets, gets to play off Garnett, a most valuable player favorite, and enjoy the finest days of his pro basketball life.

Marbury probably won't be writing "All Alone" on his sneakers next season, as he did with the Nets, but as a Knick, he is clearly the sun being orbited by a few too many asteroids. Thomas took over a broken-down organization last December and did well to supply even one star-caliber piece. Erratic as he was against the Nets, Marbury is more than what the Knicks could have hoped for or got under Scott Layden. He is not the problem. But is he the solution? Should he be the one untouchable Knick, no matter who becomes available in the coming months?

"This is one Isiah has to decide," said Steve Mills, the chief operating officer of Madison Square Garden sports.

As playoff flops go, the Knicks' was somewhat predictable, more easily digested by a city trying to cope with the Red Sox and the new Manning at the Meadowlands. The Garden chairman, James L. Dolan, deigned to grant reporters who cover the team a brief audience yesterday, but Thomas was only sharing with his players, during daylong meetings that stretched into rush hour. The coach, Lenny Wilkens, will hold his season-ending address today. Tomorrow, it will be Thomas's turn to spin, as the Knicks, for whatever reason, stretch out their goodbyes like a first-round playoff series.

Friday's program, as yet unannounced, may very well have Allan Houston leading a chapel service and prayers for the free-agent-to-be Rasheed Wallace to sign with the Knicks for many millions less than what the Pistons can pay him.

The Knicks have all summer to convince themselves that a healthy Houston and Tim Thomas would have made a difference. They can pretend Houston's rickety knees will magically heal and allow him to be the player he was in 1999. They can embrace the familiarity factor all they want, but Thomas's summer will probably be spent shopping Thomases, Tim and Kurt, after their respective performances, on and off court, against the Nets.

The Knicks are stuck with Houston's expensive contract, and Penny Hardaway's, too. Isiah will try to peddle Dikembe Mutombo's good heart and ancient legs. The Layden draft picks Frank Williams and Mike Sweetney should become contributors, but Isiah shouldn't kid himself. This team together for a full season will be no emerging conference power, no lock to get out of the first round, if it gets back to the playoffs at all.

Marbury said he was evaluating this run as a beginning, not an end. "People see us totally different from the way they saw us before I got here," he said. "I brought a lot of heart to the team, a lot of character."

Isiah, his benefactor, told him to go home, spend the summer working on his left hand. No problem, Marbury said. The hard part, the essential part if they are going to stage a real Broadway revival, is for Isiah to somehow find his point guard a right-hand man, or two, and soon.

NYCdog
04-27-2004, 01:46 PM
repeat: There is a trade proposal on a NYKs fan chat forum that suggests trading KT/Mutombo for Walker, with a followup proposal suggesting adding Frank Williams, with the expressed belief that such a trade would represent a talent upgrade for the NYKs.

I'm the one repeating myself.........


The only way that you can prove that are telling truth is to post the thread where you got this from.

kg_veteran
04-27-2004, 01:51 PM
I'm going to say it ONE more time.

If you want to debate the future of the Knicks and Isiah Thomas' acumen as a general manager, have at it. But all of this back and forth between the two of you needs to go to PMs, or stop. I'm not taking sides and I don't care who's right or wrong. I just want it to stop. Or I'll stop it.

I hope I've been clear.

MavKikiNYC
04-27-2004, 01:52 PM
kamiar77 - 5:02 PM ET April 26, 2004 (#21143 of 21216)
Isiah ~ please don't trade Frankie or Sweetney

Toine or Twan?
But what does KT + Frank yield us? <u>An upgrade</u> at the 4 or 5 hopefully.

<u>Antoine Walkah is what KT+Frank+Mutombo will get us. </u>

Antoine friggin Walkah

nagel100 - 5:53 PM ET April 26, 2004 (#21146 of 21216)
The jury is out!!

Kam- I need to chime in on the Walker thing. <u>Count me in. KT plus for Walker. </u>I think we can get away with KT/Deke and OH. Assumes a first round departure by Dallas sealing the "Walker experiment failure" . Antwaan easily fits into Walker's spot for Dallas and KT/Deke offer defense inside. Perhaps only Cuban would buy into the Deke thing anyway.

<u>For me I want more talent and Antoine despite his warts has the ability to fit the 4 for us. He may be ready to be the point power foward we need. </u>If there was someway to add Dampier then I go to war with Dampier/Walker/TT/AH and Stephon backed by Fwill/Penny/Sweetney/Demarr/Baker.


dag63 - 6:14 PM ET April 26, 2004 (#21147 of 21217)
Forum pessimist and devout contrarian

nagel, kam - <u>Walker's got skills</u>, but until Dampier (or some other reasonable facsimile) is officially on board, I wouldn't go and get Toine.We need athletes at the 4 and 5 more desperately than a PF with SF skills.
Whew. hard to stay quiet. I'll try harder.

fwk00 - 8:43 PM ET April 26, 2004 (#21150 of 21217)

Walker
If the right deal were on the table, I'd gamble on Walker. <u>He's an idiot but he sure is talented. </u>

One of the biggest letdowns during the Nets series was that KT was an invisible man for 3 of the four games. Deke needs to clean house of KT, Anderson, Deke, OH, and Moochie.

I'd like to see TT used as a sixth man next year. Is Qyntel Woods available?

chipstern - 8:49 PM ET April 26, 2004 (#21152 of 21217)
[c]HIPSTER[n]DotCom: Coming Soon To A Web Site Near You

Antoine Walkah is what KT+Frank+Mutombo will get us.

Sorry RB, but NO SALE. <u>Walker has talent,</u> but is not so much of a difference maker that I would deal Frankie. Williams stays unless we are talking about something along the lines of a Kobe or McGrady or perhaps Rasheed Wallace. Who even as I speak just made a BIG LEAGUE BASKET against Joe Smith and silenced the Milwaukee crowd, con gusto.

kamiar77 - 11:12 PM ET April 26, 2004 (#21163 of 21217)
Isiah ~ please don't trade Frankie or Sweetney

<u>Antoine Walker would cost us Frankie</u>, I don't see Dallas being dumb enough to not ask for him in the deal.
Isiah may be under enough pressure from Dolan to pull the trigger on deals that cost our youths.

If so, then I will be upset. I get depressed whenever I remember that this is still a Dolan team.

On another note, it has been nice visiting this forum. I hope everyone has a great summer and enjoy the fine baseball and such.

kidcarter8 - 10:39 AM ET April 27, 2004 (#21187 of 21217)


flinter3 #21175 9:13 AM ET 4/27/2004
You're just dead wrong every time you open your yap and don't talk UCONN.

<u>Walker can play ANY type game.</u>

Edit: Additional comments in support of acquiring Walker

chipstern - 11:16 AM ET April 27, 2004 (#21190 of 21224)
[c]HIPSTER[n]DotCom: Coming Soon To A Web Site Near You

Antoine Walker.

If all it costs is KT and Deke and Othella, I'm down.

Whatever his limitations and lack of IQ, he has mad skillz. And when he was in the East he was at his best with a good point (Kenny Anderson), so...not my dream date but heck.

chrisdudley - 11:47 AM ET April 27, 2004 (#21196 of 21224)

<u>Antoine Walker would fit perfectly in New York. </u>


I'M BEING SERIOUS.


Employee #8 could play PF on a run and gun team with Camby at center.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________

Clearly, there is a movment among NYK fans in support of acquiring Walker. Despite a few with mild reservations, most of the poor dumb bastards clearly believe in his talent, and prefer him to Thomas, Mutombo, and other fodder.

MavKikiNYC
04-27-2004, 02:05 PM
It gets better...

Today a few dissenting NYK fans have recognized Walker's limitations, and are lobbying for Zeke to acquire Jamison instead.

MavKikiNYC
04-27-2004, 02:23 PM
DOLAN OUT KUDOS

D is for deluional
O is for oblivious
L is for loser
A is for a$$-kicked
N is for New York

Kiss of death for Lenny and Zeke--Dolan thinks they're doin' fine.

By MARC BERMAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
April 27, 2004 -- Owner James Dolan graded the Knicks' season a "B", said he expects a better playoff showing next year, put some pressure on Lenny Wilkens and declared Isiah Thomas has the franchise "heading in the right direction."

"I give this team a 'B,' not an 'A.' Not a 'C,' " Dolan said in a State-of-the-Knicks Address as the players held exit interviews with Thomas and Wilkens yesterday. "We made some big changes and whenever you do that, you hold your breath. I give them a 'B' because it feels like the right thing at the end of the season. If we didn't do it, I think there was a much greater chance we wouldn't have made the playoffs."

Dolan, citing injuries to Allan Houston and Tim Thomas, showed little disappointment that the Knicks were swept by the Nets in the Lincoln Tunnel Series that concluded one of the franchise's wildest seasons.

"Had we had more weapons available, we would've strung it out longer if not snatched [the series] away," Dolan said.

Though the players talked about letting the current nucleus develop, Thomas will be actively courting free agents come July 1. Dolan believes Thomas' magnetism will only help the recruiting process. It was Scott Layden's
weakness.

"I'd really not like to make comparisons between Isiah and Scott," Dolan said. "Isiah's got a lot of charisma. His enthusiasm, passion is infectious. And I like talking to him. If other guys feel like I do, maybe that helps him make trades."

Kobe Bryant and Rasheed Wallace are the marquee free agents. The Knicks are longshots to land Bryant in a sign-and-trade that would probably have to include Stephon Marbury. "It's possible," Dolan said. "I'll support Isiah with it. That would be some charisma, wouldn't it?"

Dolan fired Scott Layden on Dec. 22, creating a series of makeovers that included a coaching change and a franchise-record 22 players suiting up for at least one game.

The owner put the heat on Wilkens by saying that he expects more next season. "There's going to be another season," Dolan added. "We're going to be a better team. You have to assume a healthy Allan [Houston]. I would hope we weren't injured going into the playoffs next year. Having played together all that time, you'd think they'd be better. We got a great coach. He should be able to make them better."

When asked if Wilkens would still return if Phil Jackson were available on the open market, Dolan said, "It's up to Isiah. It's Isiah's organization to build now."

When Dolan last spoke, in New Orleans entering the All-Star Break, he said the club was good enough to compete for a title. A few days later, Thomas traded Keith Van Horn and Michael Doleac for Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed - a deal still being scrutinized, particularly since Tim Thomas, who wouldn't speak to reporters yesterday, now looks like a loose cannon.

Dolan said the trade was "tough" emotionally. "I really liked Keith Van Horn," Dolan said. "I liked him as a player, but as person I really liked him too. I miss having Keith around. We hired Isiah because he's got the basketball knowledge and you have to let the guy do his job."

Dolan, big on character, did not condemn Thomas for vowing revenge after being taken out of the series by a Jason Collins cheap shot. "I don't hold that against him," Dolan said. "I think he was just being passionate."

It's a weak free-agent class but Wallace, Marcus Camby, Erick Dampier and Jamal Crawford are sign-and-trade candidates. The Knicks would have to take on a bad contract in addition to the player they covet, like in the Marbury trade.

"The money's there to use, but not to waste," Dolan said. "If something like that came up, I'd hope he'd have a lot of conviction before he did it."

NYCdog
04-27-2004, 02:23 PM
Geez...... I thought you said they were sure that trading for Walker would have be a talent upgrade.

I doesnt look so to me.

One said the would flat out "do it" just to get rid of KT and Deke, only if more talent were added coming to the Knicks.

A couple say the would "gamble" at best.

The others say they want no part.

So this quite honestly, proves absolutely nothing........

kg_veteran
04-27-2004, 02:31 PM
The Mavs wouldn't trade Walker for Thomas, Mutombo, and Frank Williams.

MavKikiNYC
04-27-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
The Mavs wouldn't trade Walker for Thomas, Mutombo, and Frank Williams.

Probably not, since Zeke is probably going to eat the last year of Deke's contract anyway. But as
Unappealing as I find Thomas, and as unproven as Williams is, I
Still wonder how much more than this Dallas can realistically expect to get for Walker.
Sorry to say, but to be honest, after what I've seen of Walker this
Year, I'd have to consider something like this--if not this deal. But an offer that netted a bigger, younger PG; a defense/rebounding-oriented PF, and a tough, physical, playoff-experienced veteran shotblocker?

Wouldn't any coach other than Nellie get good mileage out of that mix of personnel? And
In exchange for Walker who clearly holds the Mavericks back? You gotta consider it (from Dallas's
Perspective.) Some of those posters are usually pretty sharp--such as the lone guy who opposed the trade,
Even though he mistakenly conceded that Walker had talent, later posting he has "mad skillz". The other
four who were in favor of that trade and who all endorsed Walker's talent (and decry that of KT and Deke) apparently didn't see him play this year, other than the lone game in NY, which, I must admit, was one of his better games.

But I find it hard to argue that Walker's trade value (skills-wise, not necessarily as an expiring contract) didn't decline this season. He has really atrophied in the last couple of months. Sickens me to watch him out there gumming things up. Would much rather see him as Zeke's failure as opposed to Cuban's.

MavKikiNYC
04-27-2004, 03:35 PM
Brutally overwhelming consensus of post-mortem opinion says NYKs aren't going anywhere anytime soon, and strongly implies that Zeke is part of the problem.

TIME WON'T HEAL WOUNDED KNICKS
Jay Greenberg
NYPost

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
April 27, 2004 -- KURT Thomas says he's not concerned about the possibility of being traded, despite having an affordable contract, obvious value, and a boss who has just had his dark suspicions about his plodding team confirmed by four straight losses. Dikembe Mutombo says he can play two more years, even if his coach didn't think he could play the last two games against the lead-footed Jason Collins in what had become largely half-court competition.

Certainly Penny Hardaway, always the voice of reason, knows he's not worth $28 million for two years to Charlotte's expansion team and could say yesterday without fear of disappointment that he wants to come back. But the best thing uttered as the Knicks broke up may have been by Tim Thomas, who sent word he wasn't talking, albeit five days too late.

The Knicks, left grounded in reality every time Richard Jefferson elevated down the baseline, still didn't seem to grasp their physical limitations. One-by-one, they marched out from exit interviews with Isiah Thomas and Lenny Wilkens to intone they really just need time together.

"We had breakdowns because of not playing with each other," said Stephon Marbury. "Everything we did was on the fly. "What we did to get to the playoffs, the push we made, was incredible."

They went 29-25 after Isiah and 25-22 after Marbury, which was not incredible in a weak conference, only a barometer of what the Knicks can do without Allan Houston, who missed 26 of the final 35 games and thinks more rest this summer will fix him up.

"I've talked to doctors, know my body," he said. "When I have given it time, it has definitely felt better. I keep saying it over and over, maybe you guys don't like the answer. Isiah believed me the first time."

Today we are supposed to find out what Isiah believes, if he is willing to say anything other than he has a fine nucleus based around a point guard who has never been out of the first round, a 32-year-old shooter with bum knees, an underachieving small forward who is even more delusional about his own impact than the organization seems to be about this group's potential.

"Had we had more weapons available we would have strung it out longer, if not snatched the series away," said Jim Dolan. "You have to assume [with] a healthy Allan we would be better. I would hope we're not injured going to the playoffs next year. We got a great coach. He should be able to make them better."

What the Knicks need are players who make Marbury better. If they can't add them, maybe they are better off making him move again, for Kobe Bryant, if he's not in jail, if a sign-and-trade would satisfy him and the Lakers.

"That would be some charisma, wouldn't it?" said Dolan, who had just used that word to describe Thomas. "We'll give [Thomas] freedom to make the moves he'd like to make."

Marbury, a pet project, is not likely one of them, nor should he be over the results of a series in which he had little help and no chance. Still, to set him in stone inside all these hands of stone might be counterproductive to what the Knicks insist is the ultimate goal.

If Houston holds up, time together will get this group only to fourth place. To put the Knicks close to NBA title potential after merely getting close in two games out of four would be misleading as Jason Kidd's eyes.

"From us talking, whatever [Isiah] does I don't think will be something that shakes things up so we have to start over," said Houston. "I think he wants to keep what we started in the middle of the season and give it a chance over the next year or two to win a championship."

It would be a better plan with better players.

kg_veteran
04-27-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
The Mavs wouldn't trade Walker for Thomas, Mutombo, and Frank Williams.

Probably not, since Zeke is probably going to eat the last year of Deke's contract anyway. But as
Unappealing as I find Thomas, and as unproven as Williams is, I
Still wonder how much more than this Dallas can realistically expect to get for Walker.
Sorry to say, but to be honest, after what I've seen of Walker this
Year, I'd have to consider something like this--if not this deal. But an offer that netted a bigger, younger PG; a defense/rebounding-oriented PF, and a tough, physical, playoff-experienced veteran shotblocker?

Wouldn't any coach other than Nellie get good mileage out of that mix of personnel? And
In exchange for Walker who clearly holds the Mavericks back? You gotta consider it (from Dallas's
Perspective.) Some of those posters are usually pretty sharp--such as the lone guy who opposed the trade,
Even though he mistakenly conceded that Walker had talent, later posting he has "mad skillz". The other
four who were in favor of that trade and who all endorsed Walker's talent (and decry that of KT and Deke) apparently didn't see him play this year, other than the lone game in NY, which, I must admit, was one of his better games.

But I find it hard to argue that Walker's trade value (skills-wise, not necessarily as an expiring contract) didn't decline this season. He has really atrophied in the last couple of months. Sickens me to watch him out there gumming things up. Would much rather see him as Zeke's failure as opposed to Cuban's.

Kiki, Dikembe has NOTHING left in the tank. Thomas is a decent defender and rebounder, but Walker's at least his equal as a rebounder and not that much worse as a defender.

Frank Williams? When I've seen him play he seems like a decent player and a good athlete, but is a young backup point guard what we need? Don't we already have one of those?

MavKikiNYC
04-27-2004, 06:17 PM
Like I said, KG, not necessarily this deal. But the structure of it is right from the Mavs' perspective--Vet Frontcourt players at 5 and 4, and young backcourt depth at 1. If the Mavs could get those components for Walker, I think they'd come out ahead, in part by what they'd add, in part by what they subtract. Walker does not make the Mavs better.

As for the particulars here, I think Mutombo could've helped a team this past year in a 20-25 mpg role. He had several strong rebounding games and demonstrated some ability to defend the paint. His playing time reduction came because I,Thomas was an a$$hole about all Layden acquisitions, and pointedly influenced the distribution of minutes away from Mutombo, at one point controversially forcing him to go onto the IR, even though he maintained he was healthy. This was just one of the misuses and abuses by Thomas of his position this past year.

In a part-time role, Mutombo could've approximated the production that the Mavs got from Mantis. It is a bitter disappointment that Dallas didn't have the management in place to see that, act on it, and execute it. True, Mutombo will be a year older, and I have serious questions about whether he could be counted on for 20-25 mpg in coming years--probably more like 12-15. It's probably moot anyway, but we still see the Mavericks needing to address interior defense.

Thomas is a little bit grayer an issue. (I never liked the trade proposals of LaF/+ for KT and Ward, in part because they often tended to include NVE, and I thought the Mavs could and should get more out of those two assets. In fact, they did.) Walker is looking more and more like an over-valued asset on the scale of LaF. As for Thomas himself, I think that the type of player Thomas is would be a MUCH more complementary fit alongside Dirk. From what I've seen of the two players, Thomas is at least a clear cut above Walker as a defender, and is a better rebounder in traffic than Walker. I frankly am not at all impressed by Walker as a rebounder--he snares a lot of easies, and slaps the ball off the glass a couple of times a game, but he rarely, RARELY pulls in the tough board in traffic.

Regarding the PG, are you referring to Daniels as the young up-and-comer? I've held off on saying anything much about Daniels, because I have't seen his best games. But from what I've seen, I am far from convinced that he's PG-material, and even have some questions about how productive he will ultimately be. Clearly, last night was not the best game to evaluate him by, but I still don't see him as a distributor, and he was nearly lackadaiscal last night at times on defense.

Yes, Daniels is a rookie. But yes, next year he'll be a soph. Will be interesting to see if his success this past year was that of a fearless rookie producing under pressure, or the play of a dumb rookie playing without fear. The concept of sophomore jinx is not just myth. Daniels was a nice surprise in a somewhat disappointing season, but he has a lot of development left before I see him as a solid backup to Nash. At this point, I'm hesitant to view him as much more than a promising wild card.

And to be perfectly frank, I'd actually like to see them find a player good enough to push Nash to the bench, like Derek Harper did Brad Davis; some young player with a distribute-and-defend mentality, who doesn't get physically dominated the way we've come to see happen to Nash.. Can't say that Frank Williams excites much enthusiasm, but he's somewhat closer to the mold of the type PG I think the Mavs would do well with.

So, no...the Walker for Mutombo-Thomas-Williams deal isn't something I'd want to stake much on. But, again, it's the TYPE of deal I'd love to see the Mavs pull off, and again, I have to wonder what the Mavs can realistically hope to get from Walker after his near collpase of a performance this year.

NYKs with I,Thomas will almost certainly be looking to deal this off-season (they HAVE to do something), and Walker would seem to have some appeal both to Thomas and to NYK fans. I don't see much on the NYKs roster of interest anymore, but if you're valuing Walker as clearly better than a package of Mutombo, Thomas and Williams, what do you see him bringing in trade?

Any thoughts?

MavKikiNYC
04-28-2004, 11:03 AM
Amazing. Thomas has just started doing a Layden impersonation.

Build around.....Allan Houston? ALLAN HOUSTON?

Patchwork? PATCHWORK? 3-4 years worth of PATCHWORK?

He likes this team? THIS TEAM?

Limited ability to deal in off-season? LIMITED ABILITY?

Unconventional methods of improving? Like him resigning?

This is the funniest thing I've read all week.

Knicks Have Little and Need to Do a Lot
By STEVE POPPER

Published: April 28, 2004


GREENBURGH, N.Y., April 27 - When Isiah Thomas took over as the Knicks' president of basketball operations earlier this season, he was faced with an immediate choice. He could strip salary from the roster, dealing away contracts as quickly as possible, and let expiring contracts run their course to begin building for the future. Or he could do what he did during the season, adding contracts that most other teams would avoid, pushing the Knicks higher above the salary cap and the luxury-tax threshold and patching together a team with some hope of contending.

Now, as Thomas enters his first off-season with the Knicks, there is no choice. The Knicks have no first-round draft pick this June and have no hope of getting under the salary cap any time soon. Thomas said Tuesday that he would seek unconventional methods of improving the Knicks.

With 13 players under contract and with most of them overpriced, Thomas will need to be creative. And it is the nearly $60 million still owed to Allan Houston, who has three more years remaining on his deal, that will limit what he can do. "I think you're looking at patchwork for the next three to four years," Thomas said Tuesday after concluding his exit interviews with players on Monday, then meeting with his coaching staff. "Our decision was for the next three years while you still have Allan at the dollar figure that he's at, let's try to put some players around him and try to take a run at it for the next three years and see what happens. If it doesn't work, now patchwork is over. But in the meantime, while you've patched up, you've also tried to get younger and get better.

"But I didn't think it was a good message to send to our fans to say: 'You know, we haven't made the playoffs in two years. We're going to get rid of all the salary and go young, and, you know, by the way, the next three years we aren't going to make the playoffs because we're going to be young and rebuilding.' "

Despite his prediction that improvement next season must come from the Knicks becoming more familiar with each other, no one who has watched Thomas wheel and deal expects him to wait out the off-season passively.

The Knicks have two free agents, Vin Baker and DerMarr Johnson, leaving this year's salary figure of $94.5 million ($132 million after adding in the luxury tax) already at $95.5 million for next season, which puts the Knicks close to $40 million over the cap.

Coach Lenny Wilkens says the Knicks covet a scoring swingman and a power forward who can defend and rebound. But Thomas has only the midlevel exception to lure new talent to the Knicks and that is expected to be worth approximately $5.3 million next year, a figure that will not compete with what some teams may be able to offer.

"I read some of the names that have been thrown around," Thomas said. "Those guys, you just don't go and get those guys. Those are hard deals to make and hard things to do."

The most logical scenario for the Knicks would be to try to improve through a trade. But the Knicks do not have a player with a contract that would attract interest from another team. So although some high-level players could be on the trade market this summer, Thomas knows the reality of getting one is slim.

"You know, you sense there may be some turmoil with some of the bigger-name players in the league and if those guys are going to be moved, you're interested," Thomas said. "You try to see if you can play in the game."

But Thomas admitted that he did not "expect to do a lot."

"I like what we have,'' he said. "You know, the youth, that's in our team. We're young enough to get better. And the players, our responsibility right now is to make the players better. The players have got to get better. That's the bottom line. We're not good enough and no one is coming to save us. This isn't a charity league. It's a very competitive league. When you're down, people want to kick you. Our job is to make sure our players get better."

kg_veteran
04-28-2004, 11:18 AM
Ah, yes. Improvement from within. If those young guys the Knicks have just work a little harder on their games....

Wait a minute! All of the young guys went to Phoenix. Damn, I guess they'll have to come up with something else.

MavKikiNYC
04-28-2004, 11:50 AM
In a part-time role, Mutombo could've approximated the production that the Mavs got from Mantis. It is a bitter disappointment that Dallas didn't have the management in place to see that, act on it, and execute it. True, Mutombo will be a year older, and I have serious questions about whether he could be counted on for 20-25 mpg in coming years--probably more like 12-15. It's probably moot anyway, but we still see the Mavericks needing to address interior defense.

I need to correct myself here. Mutombo actually gave the NYKs MORE production this year than Mantis did the Mavs. (Not to rag excessively on Mantis--this was obviously one of Nellie's inscrutable "decisions". )

Mutombo

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 5.6
RPG 6.7
APG .4
SPG .26
BPG 1.89
FG% .478
FT% .681
3P% .000
MPG 23.0
Games 65

Mantis

PPG 3.3
RPG 2.6
APG .3
SPG .50
BPG 1.12
FG% .473
FT% .837
3P% .000
MPG 11.7
Games 66

I would like to've seen how the Mavs would've performed with 10 points, 9 rebounds, 3.5 blocks (and 12 fouls) from nearly 15-feet worth of 5 position, with two players who didn't require the ball to be productive.

kg_veteran
04-28-2004, 11:55 AM
Kiki - I think we both know that Mutombo wouldn't have played here any more than he did in New York.

MavKikiNYC
04-28-2004, 01:10 PM
True. But a man can dream.

I took a look at Mutombo's numbers only as a means of gauging what he might have left, and was kind of surprised at how respectable the numbers were; all the more surprised when I compared them to Mantis. We ALL knew that Mantis should've been playing more this year, and nobody (outside of Nellie) thinks that Mantis is washed up. Given what Mutombo was able to provide with erratic playing time, I'm not entirely ready to write him off either.

Ultimately, it really speaks to the fact of the need for new management in Dallas. Discussion of payer acquisitions that would transform the Mavericks' style of play are moot-squared otherwise.

MavKikiNYC
05-23-2004, 09:17 AM
No draft picks. No head coach, no big-name scout at the draft workouts.

Sounds like Zeke runs a tight ship.


NYKs' Draft Prospects Meager, Thanks to Thomas' Trades

May 23, 2004 -- Though the Knicks have no first-round pick, they began pre-draft workouts last week, with Seton Hall point guard Andre Barrett the headliner. Isiah Thomas has one second-round pick — 43rd overall. The explosive 5-10 Bronx product out of Rice (typo?) should be available when the Knicks pick, and Thomas has an affinity for small point guards. Barrett, who averaged 17.6 points, 5.9 assists and 4.0 rebounds, led Seton Hall to an at-large NCAA berth but the senior is considered a mid-to-late second rounder because he didn't do well at the Portsmouth pre-draft camp. <u>"He knows how to run a team, but he's a streaky shooter and some coaches don't like small point guards," Jazz scout Walt Perrin said. </u>

The Jazz, in a trade with Phoenix, have the Knicks' first-round pick — at No. 16 — and could have a crack at Lincoln's Sebastian Telfair. How ironic would that be, as Stephon Marbury would then have been indirectly traded for his cousin.
Other notables who worked out at the Knicks' Westchester practice facility last week were Miami's Darius Rice, Xavier's Lionel Chalmers and Florida State's Tim Pickett.

One notable absentee from last week's three workout sessions was Knick coach Lenny Wilkens, whom Knick brass believe is <u>hiding out at his Seattle home</u>. Isiah was joined by his scouting staff, including assistant GM Jeff Nix, Willis Reed, Scott and Dick McGuire and assistant coaches Herb Williams and Mike Malone.

Isiah has worked out a total of 12 players that also included Andre Brown (DePaul), Desmon Farmer (USC), Bernard Robinson, Jr. (Michigan), Jamar Smith (Maryland), Jackson Vroman (Iowa State), Mike Williams (Western Michigan), Nate Williams (Georgia State) Terrence Woods (Florida A&M).

The media machine Isiah spent Thursday donning a navy blue Giorgio Armani suit and shooting a fashion spread for Men's Health. (Remind me to skip that magazine, as usual.)

Knicks will hold their summer basketball camps for kids ages 8 to 18 June 27 to July 1 at Island Garden in West Hempstead. Sessions also are at Pace (July 12-16) and Chelsea Pier's Basketball City (July 26-30, Aug. 9-13, Aug. 23-27). Marbury, Allan Houston, Willis Reed, Earl Monroe, John Starks and Willis Reed will be guest speakers. Call 877-NYK-Dunk.

Kurt Thomas has decided to have pinkie surgery after his June 2 "Kurt Thomas Investment Challenge" stock-market tournament in which the winners will be announced at Merrill Lynch headquarters. The high-school students will win a paid internship to Merrill Lynch. The Knicks are still deciding on the doctor to perform the surgery that could keep him off the basketball court as much as three months.

Knick scout Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was not at the draft workouts but he'll be at America Restaurant in Manhattan tomorrow plugging his World War II book, "Brothers In Arms" at a Knicks' Read-to-Achieve program for high-school students.

MavKikiNYC
08-01-2004, 08:57 AM
Fugazy Zeke. In NYC hoops, ain't nothin' goin' on but the rent.


CITY GAME'S LAME

By MIKE VACCARO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

August 1, 2004 -- DID you ever think you'd miss "fugazy" so much? That was only three months ago. For once, after all these years of false starts and fake promises, we'd gotten ourselves a Knicks-Nets series with a little heat attached to it, a little juice. The Nets looked like they were ready to sprint back to the NBA Finals. The Knicks were in the playoffs for the first time in three years.

In New York City, the once and forever capital of basketball, it was enough to make a guy dream a little bit of what could be possible across the next few years. Then Tim Thomas went up at the Meadowlands, and Jason Collins took out his legs, and Thomas missed the rest of the series, and then decided to engage in a little social commentary.

He called Kenyon Martin "fugazy." A fake tough guy, borrowed from the movie "Donnie Brasco." It was plenty good to fill up the back page for a couple days, not good enough to fire the Knicks up to avoid being swept, but, hey, there was always tomorrow we figured.

There would always be next year, right? These rivals were just getting started, weren't they? The Nets were still the Nets, full of young stars in their prime. Isiah Thomas was tinkering with the Knicks. He'd come up with something, wouldn't he?

That was only three months ago.

Now, if you happen to be a basketball fan in New York City, you wake up in the morning and you cringe before snapping open your newspaper. Every day, the Nets allow one of those stars to waltz away for a song. Every day, we see Isiah going after another name - Jamal Crawford! Erick Dampier! - that doesn't exactly inspire visions of DeBusschere-for-Bellamy.

And suddenly, it's clear that "fugazy" - or its memory, anyway - is all we're left with. That may be the high point of what we really thought was a burgeoning basketball renaissance in a city that would have known how to enjoy it better than any other.

Now, when the Nets move to Brooklyn, if they move to Brooklyn, they will arrive as a glorified expansion team, stripped for parts and foisted upon the Borough of Churches in serious need of last rites. Kenyon Martin and Kerry Kittles are already gone. Jason Kidd is sure to stomp his feet until he's sent on his way. And Richard Jefferson will undoubtedly play for food somewhere, anywhere, rather than re-sign with this basketball ghost town.

Brooklyn has waited 47 years for the return of major league sports. Now, more than ever, it's clear the wait will continue long after the Nets ever hand out change-of-address cards.

And the Knicks? Well, the Knicks have reclaimed their spot atop the New York basketball firmament, but it's been a hollow victory, sort of like the way the old Soviet premiers used to win by landslides in unopposed elections. The Knicks are, essentially, the same as we left them three months ago:

Stephon Marbury is the one legit All-Star.

Allan Houston's knee still howls at him.

Kurt Thomas is at home, dreaming up new ways to draw technical fouls.

And other than that, you have a blurry batch of pedestrian players lugging around a bunch of untradeable contracts. Which means Knicks fans, in a lot of ways, are entitled to be even more frustrated than Nets fans (all six of them).

Because as the summer has progressed, every few days, you hear of another blue-chip star that longs to play for New York. First, it was Vince Carter. Then Antoine Walker. You have to think that Shaq would have been intrigued at the prospect of bringing his act to New York, but his contract would have been a financial impossibility even if Isiah had decided to woo Shaq.

And none of this is even remotely do-able.

So we get those daily updates on Jamal Crawford (lifetime shooting percentage: .397) and Erick Dampier (whose career-best 2003-04 numbers of 12.3 points and 11.9 rebounds were either the sign of an epiphany or a contract push), and you know, you just know Isiah Thomas dreams daily about the kind of roster he could put together if he were playing under baseball's rules.

Knicks fans can dream that way too. Which gives them something, anyway. Around the city's basketball landscape, that makes them runaway winners. Nets fans don't dream, because they don't dare close their eyes for fear the baskets and the balls will be next on the fire-sale block. Even St. John's fans, who have reason to be hopeful long-term under Norm Roberts, understand there's going to be a lot of agony between now and then.

Yeah. We should have enjoyed "fugazy" while it lasted.

EricaLubarsky
08-01-2004, 03:33 PM
http://www.floridaoceanographic.org/environ/images/reef/ship.jpg

MavKikiNYC
08-11-2004, 07:26 AM
DIKEMBE REFUSES TO DISCUSS ISIAH

By MARC BERMAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
August 11, 2004 -- Former Knicks center Dikembe Mutombo couldn't say enough nice things about owner James Dolan and Garden prez Steve Mills as they supported his attempts to build more hospitals in Africa.
But when the subject turned to Isiah Thomas, Mutombo stopped in his tracks.

"I have nothing to say about Isiah," Mutombo told The Post in a telephone interview yesterday. "I don't want to discuss him. What am I going to say? We haven't even had a conversation."

Last Thursday's finalized Jamal Crawford trade ended a cool relationship between Mutombo and Thomas, who began shopping the 7-2 shotblocker soon after taking over for Scott Layden Dec. 23.

Thomas was unable to move the Layden acquisition at the trading deadline but instead dealt for center Nazr Mohammed to supplant Mutombo as the Knicks' starting pivot. Thomas felt Mutombo was too old and slow to be a big part of his retooled Knicks.

"It's very sad. I'm very sad to leave the city of New York," Mutombo said. "I built a personal relationship with Steve Mills and James Dolan, not just on the basketball court but off it."

Mutombo, who returned from a family vacation to the south of France Tuesday, is unsure he wants to play for the rebuilding Bulls but won't retire. He planned to speak to his agent David Falk last night about their strategy. Falk likely will try to force a trade to the Rockets.

"I still feel I have three, four years left in me," said Mutombo, 38. "A lot of GMs want me on their team. It's not like Mutombo's done. My age has nothing to do with what I want to accomplish. I know what it takes to win and that's one of the things left is winning a championship."

*

Report out of Minnesota stated T'Wolves have shopped Long Island's Wally Szczerbiak to Knicks for Kurt Thomas. Problem is Knicks need big men . . . Nets plan to announce Ron Mercer signing today.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

Nets ought to be looking at Wally World to draw Long Islanders.

MavKikiNYC
08-19-2004, 06:58 AM
ISIAH MAY WANT CARTER TO TEAM UP WITH BAKER

By ANDREW MARCHAND
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
August 19, 2004 -- After officially announcing the Knicks' re-signing of Vin Baker, GM Isiah Thomas vowed yesterday that he would continue working to make the Knicks more athletic. "We'll always continue to try and upgrade our team," Thomas said. (Sounds like Scott Layden.)

With the Knicks' salary cap lacking flexibility, Thomas' job is difficult. The most appealing name out there is Vince Carter's. Asked specifically about the chances of Carter becoming a Knick, Thomas declined to rule it out. "We have a lot of players that are interested in playing for our team," Thomas said. "I am not in a position where I can discuss players on other teams. However, we are flattered and honored that they would want to play for our team." (Sounds like John Kerry.)

Could the Knicks, with their tight salary cap, even put together a package for a high-profile player?

"I've been known to be creative," Thomas said. "We definitely can put together creative deals here. Our owner gives us the flexibility to do that here. If we need to get creative in a package, we do have the means."
(Translations:
1) "I've been known to be creative." -----&gt;"I've been known to overpay."
2) "We definitely can put together creative deals here." -----&gt; "Other teams are always willing to take advantage of me."
3) "Our owner gives us the flexibility to do that here." -----&gt; "Dolan hasn't figured out yet how badly I've run this team into the ground.")

Thomas reiterated that he would not trade Stephon Marbury in such a deal.

Thomas said the Knicks didn't have the salary-cap space to land Erick Dampier, who was traded from Golden State to Dallas.

"He is a player who is going to make 11 or 12 million bucks a year," Thomas said. "Dallas gave up an awful lot to get him. I think it is a win-win for Dallas and for Dampier." (Sounds like he's eating sh*t.)

Thomas said it said a lot about where the Knicks are headed that Dampier even considered coming to the Garden for less than $5 million. (Yeah, what it says is that the NYKs are still the whores that Free Agents screw when their other-team girlfriends won't put out.")

The Knicks did not announce terms of Baker's contract.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

He's wrapped up a 33-year old with a history of recurrent substance abuse problems who's also coming off heart surgery, along with a cast-off from the bottom-feeding Bulls. And he thinks he won't be losing for three more years?

Plus, the NY press keeps talking about "The Package" that the Mavs had to SURRENDER to get Dampier. Not to underestimate Eddy or anything, but N&aacute;jera and L8 and a couple of future late 1st rounders are hardly an exorbitant talent "package".

Mavs get renewed, NYKs get screwed.


Unable to Acquire Dampier, Knicks Settle for Baker
By STEVE POPPER

Published: August 19, 2004


Isiah Thomas tried, but neither trade possibilities nor the midlevel salary exception nor the allure of New York City could put Erick Dampier in a Knicks uniform. So with Dampier on the verge of finding a new place to play, heading from the Golden State Warriors to the Dallas Mavericks yesterday, Thomas, the Knicks' president, settled on his backup plan for a backup center, re-signing Vin Baker.

Although Dampier may not have been the top priority for Thomas in a summer when he has flirted with players like Kobe Bryant and traded for guard Jamal Crawford, the acquisition of the 6-foot-11 Dampier, an eight-year veteran, would have been significant for the Knicks. Even though they have the highest payroll in the N.B.A., the Knicks still have only one true center - Nazr Mohammed - and he, like Baker, may be better suited to play power forward.

With Shaquille O'Neal now in the Eastern Conference, the Knicks could use more heft up front. Dampier, a true center with muscle, would have helped.

"It's difficult to acquire a quality big man in this league,'' Thomas said in a conference call yesterday. "We'll continue to try and do that. At the same time, speed does negate size. If we can get a fast enough team and a quick enough team, we'll be able to play against the plodders. At the same time, we still would welcome and look for a big presence. But I'm very happy with Nazr and Vin, and I'll emphasize again we made the playoffs with both those guys.''

But Baker had little to do with it, making little impact after joining the Knicks on March 12 and averaging 6.6 points and 4.1 rebounds in 17 games. He was hardly the player he was in the past, when he was an All-Star and an Olympian.

Baker, who will turn 33 on Nov. 23, had a minor surgical procedure in the off-season to correct an irregular heartbeat. But with Dikembe Mutombo having departed to Chicago in the Crawford deal, Baker, who signed a two-year deal worth about $3.2 million a year, will be counted on to play behind Mohammed. That is unless Thomas can find a way to pull off a deal for a big man, a notion he did not dismiss.

"We'll always continue to try and upgrade our team,'' Thomas said. "The difficult process that we're trying to do is restructure our team and not necessarily lose for three years while trying to do it. We're trying to get younger and more athletic. We got to continue to keep getting better. I'll keep working hard this summer to try and make us better and see if there are other pieces that we can add to make our team better.''

Still, Thomas came up short in his efforts to acquire Dampier, unwilling to give up the sort of package that Dallas appears ready to surrender. The Knicks are convinced that the deal with Dallas is done; otherwise, they would have held off on signing Baker, hoping instead to use the midlevel exception for Dampier.

MavKikiNYC
10-08-2004, 06:43 AM
KNICKS SLIDE CONTINUES

KNICKS TAB MARBURY AS CO-CAPTAIN

By MARC BERMAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
October 8, 2004 -- CHARLESTON — Call him Captain Steph now.
Lenny Wilkens has bestowed the Knicks' captaincy on Stephon Marbury after the Coney Island Kid walked into his office Monday before the team flew to South Carolina and told the coach he was ready for the role, The Post has learned.

Allan Houston will remain co-captain.

Marbury, whose leadership had been questioned in some circles, (Editorial note:" ...and continues to be, ..." will be the Knicks' more visible captain. Houston had been the sole captain since 2000. The decision was a no-brainer, since Houston hasn't played a game since March and often is apart from the team during his knee rehab.

Marbury returned from the Olympic disappointment with a newfound maturity and perspective and he grabbed the bull by the horns Monday.

"I went into the coach's office and told him I felt I was ready to be captain, ready to lead the team," Marbury told The Post. "I wanted to have the honor being the captain and that was bringing it every day in practice and every day in the games. Coach basically said, "All right, if you feel you're ready for that, I'll honor you with that.' "

Wilkens confirmed the meeting but said he was considering naming Marbury captain before the Nov. 3 season opener anyway.

"It wasn't like I didn't expect it," Wilkens told The Post. "It was something I had in mind and thought about this summer. That he's at a point in his career where he's maturing. He needs to step up and be a part of running this show. I felt it's be great to have him as captain. He's going to be more vocal [than Allan]. We already know that."

Marbury believed he needed the title to feel more comfortable in leading the troops. Knicks president Isiah Thomas felt Marbury wasn't able to instill his full "personality" on the group last season since he joined in midseason. Marbury follows in the footsteps of Willis Reed, Earl Monroe and Patrick Ewing.

"To be the captain on this team, and growing up in New York and all the things I've experienced, to be captain, it's kind of everything is conforming into my dreams and that's winning a championship here," Marbury said. "And these are basically all the steps that have been taken to reach that goal."

With the Nets, Marbury was criticized for rubbing some mates the wrong way, with oncourt tongue-lashings. Marbury is not afraid to get into somebody's face but he feels it's better perceived when the club wins.

"When you win, people look at you totally different," Marbury said. "When you lose, people don't value you in the same way. If we're winning and I'm screaming telling somebody what to do, then, 'oh, he's great leader.' If you're losing, it doesn't look as good."

NYCdog
10-08-2004, 12:10 PM
I know this is bound to generate a negative answer here but..........

The Knicks will be the 3 seed in the East this year.

MavKikiNYC
10-08-2004, 12:22 PM
If by "East" you meant "Atlantic" I think your exuberant optimism isn't that far off base.

NYCdog
10-08-2004, 05:50 PM
If by "East" you meant "Atlantic" I think your exuberant optimism isn't that far off base.

No I meant East.

And my optimisim still isnt that far off base.

Why?

All they need to do is win their division, which is really weak to begin with. The division winners under the new alignment will get the top 3 seeds, which I'm sure you already knew.

MavKikiNYC
10-10-2004, 11:42 AM
Former Mavs-malcontent/current Isiah-lackey Mark Aguirre is high on one of Scott Layden's draft pics. Imagine!......Layden snagged a good one!


SWEETNEY'S PUSHING KURT

By MARC BERMAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

October 10, 2004 --
CHARLESTON, S.C. — Knicks assistant coach Mark Aguirre, who's made Michael Sweetney his pet project, proclaimed the rugged power forward is an All-Star in the making.

After five days of training camp here, Sweetney appears to have the edge over veteran Kurt Thomas for the starting power forward job, but that ferocious battle will be decided during the eight-game preseason schedule.

"Sweetney's going to be one of the best power forwards in our conference," Aguirre told The Post. "There's no doubt in my mind. There's no stopping Sweetney. You can't stop Sweetney form turning into what he's ready to turn into."

When camp opened Tuesday, Thomas was supremely confident he would repel Sweetney's bid. But after Sweetney's dogged rebounding in scrimmages and Thomas' wayward jump shot, Thomas admitted he's in for a dogfight.

Two days ago, Sweetney made one spin move off the post for a reverse layup that Thomas couldn't even do when he was the NCAA scoring champion at TCU.

"I don't feel I had that great a camp," Thomas said. "Sweetney's playing great. We'll see. [The camp] was not up to my standards. I'm in great shape but not as far as shooting the ball."

Thomas' deft mid-range jumper is his biggest edge over Sweetney. But if he's erratic during the exhibition season, Sweetney will crack the starting lineup in his second year, completing a stunning turnaround.

Sweetney was selected ninth in the 2003 NBA Draft by former GM Scott Layden, but incomprehensibly, the old regime had him on and off the injured list.

When Isiah Thomas came aboard, one of his first moves was to activate Sweetney. The Knicks president was stunned a lottery pick on a substandard club hadn't been activated.

Aguirre and George Glymph were brought in by Isiah Thomas as developmental coaches last January and their chief assignment was Sweetney, who became a vital role player over the final 21/2 months.

"I'd like to see how he pushes Kurt," Aguirre said. "In our situation, we need them both. Eventually Sweetney is going to be that power forward. No question. But I'd like to see him get more established. He can take the position if that's what happens. But Kurt is very valuable to us."

Aguirre worked with Sweetney all summer and the former Georgetown star shined at the Long Beach summer league, scoring 20.3 points on 57-percent shooting, hauling in 10.8 rebounds. Banging with Sweetney this summer, Aguirre developed a herniated disk, and actually was bed-ridden here until yesterday.

"What Mark and George did with Sweetney, you should bottle it," Isiah Thomas said.

Male30Dan
10-12-2004, 01:19 AM
Not that I want to get into this AGAIN, but the Knicks have a very good chance to get a high seed in the playoffs and advance as a result...

MavKikiNYC
10-12-2004, 07:33 AM
IF you're correct, they will expose (yet another) grave flaw in the seeding process for the playoffs.

The competitive level of the Atlantic conference looks absolutely skankola.

Male30Dan
10-12-2004, 08:36 AM
I must agree Kiki...

It is definitely flawed in that regard regardless if NY wins the division, because WHOEVER wins that division will have a MUCH worse record than the 4th seed team...

MavKikiNYC
10-27-2004, 11:55 PM
They'd still need a GM.

JAX WILL LISTEN IF KNICKS CALL

By MARC BERMAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


October 27, 2004 -- Phil Jackson, back on Broadway yesterday to sign copies of his new book, said he would listen if the Knicks offered him their head coaching job next summer.
"I'd have to think about it," Jackson told The Post during his book-signing appearance on Wall Street. "But I don't want to preclude the fact that Lenny Wilkens is the coach and they have a team and they're going forward."

Indeed, Jackson, tied with Red Auerbach with nine NBA coaching titles, does not want to be accused of lobbying for the Knicks job, as he was in 1999.

Several patrons yesterday told Jackson they'd love to see him back as a Knick.

"I tell them I appreciate their sentiments," Jackson said.

Last week, Jackson made an appearance on FSN's "Best Damn Sports Show, Period" and said if he felt the Knicks had enough talent to win, he'd be intrigued.

"Well, if they had a really talented team, I haven't looked at their personnel this year," Jackson said. "But if the Knicks were competitive, I would have to look at them. You have to look at a team like that. You say, hey, they've got a chance to win. It's a team you've played for. It's a team you've had a lot of blood that flows toward that direction."

Isiah Thomas has built the franchise around point guard Stephon Marbury. As for Jackson's opinion on Marbury, Jackson said the Athens Olympics demonstrated he still has work to do.

"He has to grow and still has to improve," Jackson said. "That's something kids have to understand in this game — that they have to get better. His experience in the Olympics taught him where he can improve a lot in his game."

Jackson, who played 11 seasons with the Knicks, was on the roster for their only two championships (1969, 1973). Few realize Jackson has appeared in more games as a Knick (732) than all but four players. And Jackson always mentions Red Holzman as his coaching mentor.

One close friend of Jackson's believes he won't coach the Knicks next season because his ego would clash with Isiah's. However, it's known Thomas respects Jackson immensely as a coach for making players better. Isiah values that attribute more than X's and O's.

"Isiah's got great political acumen and can be a great force as an executive," Jackson said.

Wilkens is in no imminent danger, and Thomas has already taken the heat off early by saying the Knicks will be "lucky" to be .500 after 20 games. However, if the Knicks don't make the playoffs, it's highly unlikely Wilkens will be brought back.

Jackson says he is yet to miss coaching, but admits the true test will be after a full season away.

Drbio
10-28-2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by: NYCdog

If by "East" you meant "Atlantic" I think your exuberant optimism isn't that far off base.

No I meant East.

And my optimisim still isnt that far off base.

Why?

All they need to do is win their division, which is really weak to begin with. The division winners under the new alignment will get the top 3 seeds, which I'm sure you already knew.


As recently as last week, you "KNEW" the Yankees were going to be the 2004 champs as I recall. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

MavKikiNYC
10-31-2004, 07:31 AM
Sounds like an unpleasant situation for Shandon Anderson---Isiah is such a punk-bitch.

Thought: I wonder if that's what it's like for TAW.

Houston Nearer to Return; Anderson Isn't
By STEVE POPPER

Published: October 31, 2004


GREENBURGH, N.Y., Oct. 30 - Allan Houston stood on the edge of the court at the Knicks' practice gym Saturday, pleased after another step toward his return. On the court, Shandon Anderson was the last player remaining, shooting jumper after jumper, trying to immerse himself in the action he can get at no other time.

The two were connected, at least for the moment, by the injured list. Houston conceded that he would be content to start the season there, and that may save Anderson yet another battle with Knicks management because he says he wants no part of it.

"I'm not injured, so there's no need for me to go on the injured list," said Anderson, who played fewer preseason minutes than any player still on the roster. "That's a decision that has to be made on their end.

"If I go on the injured list, I'm basically stuck there for the year. That's not a situation I'm trying to put myself in."

With three years and nearly $24 million remaining on his contract, Anderson is not a part of the plan, but he is also tied to the Knicks as they weigh options, including a buyout.

He said that no numbers had been discussed and that he had heard nothing from the team president, Isiah Thomas, or Coach Lenny Wilkens.

"There's no communication whatsoever," he said. "I'm not going to sit up here and lie to you all and make it seem like it's daisies and flowers all in the valley or something like that. It's not that. I'm just in a situation, let's be realistic, where I'm pretty much an outcast."

Anderson added: "I stay happy regardless of the situation, but when I come in, it's that vibe you feel. People walk by you and don't speak. I don't want to do that seven months out of the year, man."

A healthy Houston would push Anderson farther down the roster, although it would be difficult for him to be any lower. Houston moved closer to a return, joining the team for shooting drills on Saturday.

"I feel good," Houston said. "I just try to build every few days. I didn't expect to do that, I was just trying out. It felt good, so I went in and stayed with it.

"I'm smart enough to know when not to try to do too much. That's why I left. In the past, I would've kept going until my leg fell off."

He has not done any contact drills, and Houston said he still needed at least a few days of scrimmages, but he insisted that he was close.

"I'd want to have at least a few days to see if it feels as good as I think it's going to feel," he said.

NYCdog
11-07-2004, 12:46 AM
Wow, Im shocked no one here has resumed this thread, in light of tonight's home opener debacle versus lowly Boston.

*puts bag back on head and hides*

EDIT: As you can tell by my new sig, I have temporarily changed my allegiance.....cause losing like this sucks a*s. I just cant freakin take it anymore. A man can only get drunk after horrible games for so many amount of times....

MavKikiNYC
11-09-2004, 12:35 PM
Punkbitch Zeke is squirming a bit to save his own loser hide. Watch your back, Lenny.

With Little Noise, Knicks Send Loud Message in Dropping Wilkens's Top Aide
By HOWARD BECK

Published: November 9, 2004


GREENBURGH, N.Y., Nov. 8 - Without a victory after two games, and humiliated in their home opener, the Knicks dumped the top assistant on Coach Lenny Wilkens's staff on Monday and replaced him with one of Isiah Thomas's closest confidants.

Dick Helm, Wilkens's longtime friend and unofficial assistant head coach, stepped down at the team's request. He has been replaced by Brendan Suhr, who is also the Knicks' director of player personnel and a close friend of Thomas, the team president.

The team disclosed the moves quietly Monday morning but did not issue an official announcement. Players were unaware of the change until they walked into practice and saw Suhr in the gym. Wilkens informed them that Helm had resigned.

Team officials characterized Helm's departure as voluntary, but they offered no specific explanation.

"He has some personal things, some things he wants to do right now," Wilkens said. "He just doesn't feel that he can focus on it."

Asked if Helm's departure was related to the Knicks' 0-2 record, Wilkens interrupted, saying: "Not at all. It had nothing to do with it."

Asked if it was Thomas's decision, Wilkens said: "Nothing to do with it. I can't tell you more than that."

The decision to let Helm, 71, go had been considered for some time, according to a person familiar with those discussions. As Wilkens's top aide, Helm sat closest to Wilkens on the bench and advised him on game-management issues, from foul situations to substitution patterns.

Thomas was dissatisfied with those areas even before the team lost its first two games, including a 34-point rout by Boston in the home opener.

Team officials recently asked Wilkens to move Helm behind the bench, but Wilkens refused.

A coaching veteran with 40 years of experience, Helm had been a member of Wilkens's staff with Seattle, Cleveland, Atlanta and Toronto.

Sunday's practice was Helm's last. Wilkens said Helm would occasionally work with the team as a consultant, but the details of that arrangement have yet to be worked out.

Reached by telephone Monday afternoon, Helm declined to comment, saying questions should be directed to Thomas.

"I will let Lenny and Isiah be the spokesmen for me," Helm said.

A team spokesman said Thomas would not be available.

It is expected that Suhr will assume responsibility for game management and become the lead assistant. Wilkens said a specific role had not been discussed.

"Hopefully, Brendan will fill that for me," Wilkens said. "But Dick and I have been together for a long time."

An assistant on the Detroit Pistons' championship teams in 1989 and 1990, Suhr is by far the most seasoned member of Wilkens's staff. Each of the others, Herb Williams, Mark Aguirre and Michael Malone, has less than three years of experience on an N.B.A. staff.

Helm's departure also leaves Wilkens with a staff constructed by others. Suhr and Aguirre, a former Piston, were brought in by Thomas, as was George Glymph, a part-time assistant. Williams and Malone are holdovers from previous Knicks staffs - Williams was hired by Don Chaney, Malone by Jeff Van Gundy.

"I've known Brendan a long time," Wilkens said. "He's like Dick. He's knowledgeable, he's been in this game, he understands talent, he teaches, he does all the same things."

Suhr had been based in Orlando, Fla., and had not been around the team since early October, when he attended training camp in Charleston, S.C.

When he showed up Monday morning, and Helm did not, it caught players by surprise. Players were not offered an explanation.

"He was like his right-hand assistant coach," said Jerome Williams, who also played under Wilkens and Helm in Toronto.

"He always did a good job coming to work every day, really kept the players upbeat. I'm sorry to see him go, definitely."

Two players who were asked to speculate about the change declined. They offered shrugs and stares and, in one case, a knowing smile and a raised eyebrow. The move looked like a warning shot, and was treated as such.

The Knicks are already on precarious ground. They have two more home games this week - against Philadelphia Tuesday night and against the Los Angeles Clippers on Friday - before they embark on a four-game trip beginning Saturday that features games at Indiana, San Antonio, Dallas and Houston.

It would be awkward, to say the least, for a team with a $100 million payroll to come home with an 0-8 record. But no one is thinking that way just yet.

"It's a marathon, I'm not worried about it," said Jamal Crawford, who added that the Knicks had two "really competitive" days of practice after Saturday's debacle. "The good thing about it is, there's always another game."

EricaLubarsky
11-09-2004, 12:39 PM
Opening-week reviews: UGLY STARTS (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBqam1ocWIyBF9TAzk1ODYxOTQ4BHNlYwNl Y2w-?slug=sk-impressions110804&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)
By Steve Kerr

New York Knicks. The Knicks were blown out at home on opening night by the Celtics and booed out of the building. The team hasn't defended or rebounded well through two games – both losses – and with a four-game road trip through Indiana, Houston, San Antonio and Dallas coming, it appears that Lenny Wilkens' squad is in for a rough start.

Hitman
11-09-2004, 05:36 PM
This thread has conistently been on the #1 page of the "Around the NBA" section for almost a year.

I think that is a testament to.....

me

and Kiki, the only NYer who hates the Knicks more than I.

EricaLubarsky
11-09-2004, 07:20 PM
I think that is a testament to.....me

I wouldnt be so vain. I think Thomas' "vision for the future" has something to do with the success of this thread. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

MavKikiNYC
11-11-2004, 10:38 AM
Man, Knicksville sounds like a nightmare organization to work in, and the responsibility is all Zeke's.

You watchin', Dolan?

If all you want is perpetual churning chaos, Zeke's your boy.

If you want to ever begin to build any sort of stability in the organization, you're going to have to think about getting someone who knows what he's doing.



BEDLAM ON KNICK BENCH

By MARC BERMAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

November 11, 2004 -- Minutes before tip-off Tuesday night, Knick assistant coach Mark Aguirre went for his customary seat on the bench only to find new hire Brendan Suhr already seated there. After an icy staredown, according to accounts, Suhr kept the seat and Aguirre moved to the row behind the bench.
It was another example of the chaotic state of the Knicks bench in the wake of Isiah Thomas' whacking Monday of Lenny Wilkens' most trusted aide, Dick Helm.

None of the assistants on Wilkens' staff was selected by the Knicks coach — an odd hodgepodge. During Wednesday's victory, assistant Michael Malone sat in Helm's seat next to Wilkens to start the game. Suhr, whose job title went from director of player personnel to assistant coach Monday, also sat next to Wilkens.

"I had Mike Malone sitting next to me because I wanted to pick up on what the other team was running, so I know right now," Wilkens said. "I had Brendan sitting there because I want him to remind me who's in foul trouble, who's not, how many minutes this guy's played."

Wilkens, to whom Thomas forgot to give a vote of confidence in Tuesday's press conference, has no clear-cut top assistant and his substitution patterns came into question in the first two losses. Wilkens seemed uncomfortable discussing the issue yesterday.

"I'll handle all that," Wilkens said. "So don't worry about it. To me, that's not important. What's important is everyone contributing and doing what they're supposed to do."

Fair enough, but remember former Knicks coach Don Chaney, on his way out, griped about the factions among the assistants, his guys vs. Isiah's guys (Aguirre, George Glymph).

Wilkens said it's his decision who sits where. The weird bench dynamics didn't distract Wilkens from coaching a solid game, paring his rotation from 11 to essentially eight men (9 counting three minutes from Jerome Williams). Wilkens benched point guard Moochie Norris and center Vin Baker.

"It's a long season," Wilkens said. "Everybody wants to make a judgment right away. We needed to win a game. And we had a good rhythm going with that rotation and I stayed with it."

Wilkens rode Stephon Marbury for 44 minutes and had Jamal Crawford play the point when Marbury was out. That's the goal when Allan Houston gets back in a few weeks, Marbury and Crawford the sole PGs. "I don't want him to have to play that many minutes," Wilkens said. "But we wanted the game."

MavKikiNYC
11-11-2004, 05:48 PM
I think this was a much better move for Anderson than for the NYKs. Would like to see him end up with the Heat so he can kick the NYK ass in the same conference.

It's amazing that Thomas is so focused on jettisoning Layden acquisitions,.....

Finally, the Knicks Waive Anderson
By HOWARD BECK

Published: November 11, 2004


Shandon Anderson got his freedom yesterday, and the Knicks got some roster flexibility. All it cost the team was about $40 million, give or take a few million.

Under a buyout agreement reached late yesterday afternoon, Anderson will receive between $17 million to $20 million - a marginal pay cut from the $24 million he was owed for the three years left on his contract. Because the Knicks are also paying a dollar-for-dollar luxury tax, the amount spent to make Anderson go away essentially doubled.

That the Knicks were willing to swallow such a large sum speaks to how desperate they were to dump Anderson, a 30-year-old swingman who fell out of favor last season with Isiah Thomas, the team president, and then forever alienated the organization by failing to show for a postseason exit interview.

"It just wasn't the best fit, and we decided it was time to separate," Anderson's agent, Dan Fegan, said.

Thomas spent months trying to trade Anderson, but teams were unwilling to take on his hefty contract. Only a month ago, Thomas said that an expensive buyout was "not an option,'' but the organization changed philosophy when it became clear it was the only option.

A few weeks ago, the Knicks offered to buy out Anderson for a fraction of what he was owed. Anderson balked, saying he would rather be stuck with a team that did not want him than surrender so much money. Talks resumed about a week ago, according to a person close to the negotiation.

Thomas was not available for comment yesterday.

Anderson was immediately placed on waivers and will become a free agent if no team claims him in 48 hours. The amount of the buyout will decrease if another team claims him, but given the size of his contract, that is unlikely.

Anderson should be free and clear late tomorrow afternoon. Among the teams expected to pursue him are the Houston Rockets, the Miami Heat, the Denver Nuggets, the Golden State Warriors and the Chicago Bulls. The veteran's minimum for a player of Anderson's experience would be about $1 million.

In Houston, Anderson would be reunited with Jeff Van Gundy, the former Knicks coach. The Rockets need a steady veteran to back up the All-Star swingman Tracy McGrady, who has a history of back problems and who missed part of practice yesterday with hip and groin injuries.

Releasing Anderson leaves the Knicks' active roster at 11 players and gives them some needed flexibility. They could sign another player, possibly Eddie Robinson, who was recently bought out of his contract by the Chicago Bulls. Robinson is holding a workout today in Chicago, and the Knicks are among the teams who will be watching.

Alternatively, the Knicks could choose to activate one of their injured players when they become eligible this weekend. Given their need for size, the Knicks might consider activating Bruno Sundov, a 7-foot 2 center.

They could also leave the spot open until Allan Houston is ready to rejoin the team. Had Anderson still been on the roster, it would have forced the Knicks to deactivate a player they valued when Houston returned.

Long term, waiving Anderson actually saved the Knicks between $8 million and $14 million - the millions they will not be paying him, plus the luxury tax on that sum.

Anderson's release nearly completes the 11-month purge of players tied to Scott Layden, the former Knicks general manager. Of the players acquired by Layden from 2001 to 2003, only the young power forward Mike Sweetney, a first-round pick, remains.......
___________________

......and they're still losing.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2004, 07:47 AM
NYKs sound about as organized as a junior high team. Note the Artest reference in the closing blurb......gotta wonder if his record company/promoter is NY-based


AGUIRRE NOT AWAITING HEAD-COACHING CALL http://nypost.com/photos/knickslede11122004.jpg

By MARC BERMAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

November 12, 2004 -- It has been speculated that Knicks assistant coach Mark Aguirre could be Lenny Wilkens' successor as head coach because of his childhood friendship with Isiah Thomas. But Aguirre said while he expects to be a head coach one day, he thinks it's unlikely it will be in New York.

"I teach," Aguirre said. "I'm going to get my opportunity somewhere. New York would be a hard place to get it. To be head coach of the New York Knicks, I don't expect it."

None of Wilkens' assistants has head-coaching experience, discounting the one game Herb Williams piloted last season after Don Chaney was fired. Brendan Suhr and Mike Malone could be viable interim candidates if the Knicks falter and Thomas makes a change.

If the Knicks lose at home to the surprising 3-2 Clippers tonight, they could return from their vicious four-game road trip that starts tomorrow in Indiana and traverses through the Texas Triangle at 1-7.

Aguirre said no hard feelings existed between him and Suhr regarding Tuesday's tense seating snafu. Aguirre, Suhr and Wilkens chatted together at midcourt for several minutes after yesterday's practice.

The incident occurred when Aguirre went to sit on the bench next to Wilkens, but Suhr had occupied the seat. The two assistants exchanged words and some angry stares before Aguirre took a seat behind the bench, where he normally resides.

"It was just a simple two-second miscommunication," Aguirre said. "I looked at it as, geez, that's fine. Brendan has been here 100 years. If he says that, that's what it is. I didn't know. Brendan had just gotten here. He didn't know a lot of the different terminologies and offenses. I thought Coach would need that."

Aguirre admits he and Thomas, best friends growing up on Chicago's impoverished West Side, speak often, but says the Knicks president could just as easily fire him.

"We have to talk as friends," Aguirre said. "I'm also employed by him too. You do what he's got to do if you grew up like we grew up."
_______________
If troubled Ron Artest is put on the block, expect Thomas to be in first in line to go after him. Thomas and former Pacers assistants Aguirre and George Glymph love Artest . . . Allan Houston said he's not just rehabbing his left knee but building strength in his whole "left side" that got out of whack from overcompensation for the ailing knee last season. He said he's "very close" to participating in practices but did not say when he would scrimmage.

GP
11-12-2004, 01:09 PM
I think Knicks fans and the New York Media are getting just what they deserve right now. They ran Layden out of town when he had a plan that included a solid foundation of youth and athleticism. They had just drafted some promising young players when he got the axe. Now what do they have? A complete mess is what. I am not saying that Layden shouldn't have been fired; however, sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you don't. They need to fire Thomas and blow the whole damned thing up right now. I can't believe that ownership allowed this nutcase to trade away all the young players for this load of crap. Even if Houston were healthy, how would Marbury, Crawford and Houston mesh. They basically have no center, two or three average powerforwards and no true point and no small forward. Oh, and they are in Salary Cap Hell. The only way possible for them to field a decent team in the next couple of years would be to develop young inexpensive players, but they traded those. This could get very ugly very quickly. They are a Marbury injury away from being the worst team in the league. He seems to be this teams only saving grace and even he has his warts.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2004, 10:44 PM
Saw the NYKs tonight against the Clips in a game that the NYKs dominated from start to finish. The NYKs didn't impress me as spectacularly good so much as the Clips looked completely listless and inept---really surprising since they seem to have some talent on the team in Brand and Magette.

Will be interesting to see in a couple of months against the Mavs if the NYKs are as good at pressuring the ball and playing the passing lanes as they appeared to be tonight. LACs couldn't make an entry pass at times. Was really surprised at how ineffective Jaric was. Wilcox was something of a disappointment as well. He started, but other than a few nice dunks off feeds from Brand didn't show anything other than a knack for making bad passes; not much of a rebounder or shot-blocker tonight against the shorter, earth-bound NYKs. Didn't get much from Shaun Livingston either--if he was the Mavs choice over Harris, then they appear to have lucked out. Livngston plays a little more under control, but doesn't have anything like Harris's frenetic warp speed.

I'll also be interested to see Harris defensively against Marbury, after Harris has a couple of months of seasoning. Always had the feeling that Marbury could take Nash anytime, anyplace, anyway he wanted, and Marbury had close to a triple double tonight. But Harris and Terry should b able to apply better defensive pressure, and the Mavs have the ability to have at least one shot blocker on the floor at all times. Marbury was good tonight, but the Clippers didn't really seem to have much of a scheme to for defending him.

A couple of other players who showed something:

Mike Sweetney looks like he could turn into an Unseld-type player

Trevor Ariza who looks like a cross between Michael Cooper and Tyrone Corbin---bigger body than Cooper, but better flexibility than Corbin. Ariza still doesn't have any kind of outside shot, so it seems kind of odd to hear Lenny Wilkens talk about wanting to start him, but he is a wiry scrapper on the boards kind of like JHo, and can provide some high-flying finishes in the transition game.

Nazr Muhammad's days in a NYKs uni are numbered.

NYCdog
11-13-2004, 02:25 PM
This thread has conistently been on the #1 page of the "Around the NBA" section for almost a year.

I think that is a testament to.....

me

and Kiki, the only NYer who hates the Knicks more than I.


Ahem.......how about me, the Knick fan that never lost hope like true fans do, even in bad times.....

(although I would like to note I am slowly beginning to agree with Kiki's assessment of Zeke's handling of the situation and lose hope....)

Hitman
11-13-2004, 04:38 PM
Isiah Thomas will leave the Knicks in much the same way he left the CBA, the Pacers and the Raptors....

In MUCH worse shape than when he got there.

And, like the rest of them...the Knicks will be better off when he is gone.

EricaLubarsky
11-13-2004, 07:29 PM
The Knicks have the possibility of being a really competitive team in 2010

MavKikiNYC
11-17-2004, 11:08 PM
Gotta love Tim Thomas's loser attitude.

Let's see.....Isiah traded KVH for Tim Thomas, who is running Lenny Wilkens's team into the ground. But it will be Wilkens who goes when the wheels fall off.

Paging Mr. Dolan.....


Van Gundy's Rockets Look Too Much Like the Knicks
By HOWARD BECK

Published: November 18, 2004


HOUSTON, Nov. 17 - In one wing of the Toyota Center, the Knicks were reviewing their mistakes and trying to soothe their nerves. A short walk up a ramp and an elevator ride away, Jeff Van Gundy sat on a desk in the press room and verbally agonized over his team's shortcomings.

In another time and place, the two scenes would have been part of the same broader picture. It was only by virtue of the schedule that on this rain-soaked Wednesday in downtown Houston, the Knicks and Van Gundy shared their pain in the same building for a few hours.

The Knicks, dragging along at 2-4, play Van Gundy's underachieving Houston Rockets (4-5) Thursday night.

Van Gundy is nearly three years removed from his time with the Knicks, but escaping the pressure of New York has not given him much relief. He is as emotionally wrought, and emotionally honest, as ever, whether the subject is his new team or his old one.

Van Gundy was dismayed at the dismissal of the longtime Knicks announcer Marv Albert, whom he counts as a friend. But he was even more troubled by the Knicks' decision to fire Dick Helm - Lenny Wilkens's top assistant - after the team lost its first two games.

"Dick Helm is one of the most wonderful guys you'd ever want to know, a very good basketball coach,'' Van Gundy said. "It's unfortunate that it was him to take the burden of one bad game.''

Van Gundy added: "When you're the head coach and you're in charge of it, that's one thing. If we lose tomorrow, should our video coordinator be gone? Was it the tape that was wrong? Come on. I felt bad for Coach Helm.''

When the Knicks replaced Helm with Brendan Suhr, a close associate of the team president, Isiah Thomas, it left Wilkens with a staff chosen entirely by others, including one assistant, Mike Malone, who was originally hired by Van Gundy.

"As a coach, you should have total control of who's on your staff, if you're going to be judged on the result,'' Van Gundy said.

As he wound down, Van Gundy said he was not necessarily referring to the Knicks. "That happens a number of places,'' he said. "Lenny Wilkens has gotten good results since he's been there, with an ever-changing hand that's being dealt to him. I think he's done a fantastic job.''

Later, Van Gundy sounded as if he were still coaching and critiquing the Knicks, mentioning a number of themes that his old team was also dealing with.

He said teams usually do not lose because of less talent, but because of inferior effort and intensity. He said the teams that win the most are the ones that do not beat themselves.

"But most teams play a huge part in their own demise,'' Van Gundy said.

An hour later, in another part of the Toyota Center, the Knicks echoed that sentiment.

On Tuesday, they let a close game become a 99-81 rout to the Spurs in San Antonio. Afterward, Stephon Marbury criticized his team for breaking out of offensive sets.

Wilkens replayed the film for his team on Wednesday and gave the same speech.

"We've got new people, but they've got to learn and understand that you just don't be impulsive, you don't break it off, you don't try and do it by yourself,'' Wilkens said. "You're not going to win if you do.''

Although Wilkens preached that the Knicks must player smarter and Marbury reiterated his feelings Wednesday, the issue was treated almost disdainfully in other corners of the room.

Tim Thomas, who forced several shots and committed five turnovers on Tuesday, sounded as if he were the main target of the criticism. He at once accepted it and dismissed it.

"Hey, if y'all want to put it on my shoulders, I've got broad shoulders,'' Thomas said, pulling back his shirt sleeve to support his point. "If we're losing and it's because of me, then I've got to do something right.''

But Thomas, who shot 5 of 15 against the Spurs, rejected the suggestion, floated by Wilkens, that he was pressing in order to snap a slump.

"I just need to be more aggressive,'' he said. "And if forcing it or pressing it or whatever you want to call it is the issue, then so be it. I just know with myself that I have to be more aggressive.''

Jamal Crawford admitted that the Knicks need to play with more discipline, but he was wary of the second-guessing about the team's struggles.

"It's amazing, because if we win and everything is not going as smoothly, it's kind of hidden in the win,'' Crawford said. "But you lose a couple games and everybody starts nit-picking. We've just got to play. Stop pointing fingers at everybody and just play.

"There are teams like Sacramento, who are really good teams, who have the same record or less. It takes time to jell; we'll do it.''

NYCdog
11-18-2004, 11:50 AM
I Know Kiki and some other here will get a kick out of this piece by Charley Rosen.

ANALYSIS: Zeke's always been a sneak

Charley Rosen / Special to FOXSports.com (http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3162384)


There's no doubt that Isiah Thomas was a truly elite player. Just look at his bona fides: A 12-time All-Star in his 13-year career. Named to the All-NBA Team in 1984, 1985 and 1986. Led the Pistons to a pair of NBA championships (1989, 1990). In 1996, was officially named as one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History. And in 2000, Thomas entered the Hall of Fame.

Too bad he was, and still is, such a jerk.

Despite his incredible skills, Thomas was universally despised by opposing players. The cheap-shot antics of Bill Laimbeer garnered the headlines, but Thomas was the baddest of the Bad Boys. The little man was forever buzzing around the big men's knees, making contact after a whistle had sounded, and blindsiding opponents.

But Thomas' favorite, and most despicable, nasty trick came into play when he found himself playing defense in the paint. As an opposing guard planted a foot and began to rise toward the basket, Thomas would stretch a hand to the ball to distract the referees —then he'd simply step on the guard's floor-bound foot. Just for a moment. Just to disrupt the opponent's balance and rhythm. The guard would appear to stumble and, more often than not, the resulting shot would go astray.

A clever, fool-proof maneuver that also endangered the careers of numerous opponents.

It was stunts like this that moved Michael Jordan to issue an ultimatum as the make-up of the 1992 Dream Team was being discussed. MJ would stay home if Thomas was invited to participate.

With his angelic smile and soft-spoken testimonies whenever he's approached by the media, Thomas has cultivated an all-around-nice-guy persona. In truth, however, he's always been involved in shady enterprises. MJ's gambling addiction was always well-publicized — so much so that Thomas' close associations with notorious gamblers got lost in the bright lights that were focused on Jordan.

From 1994-1997, Thomas was vice-president and part-owner of the expansionist Toronto Raptors. Because Thomas is a control-freak, he constantly insists on being the center of attention — so he frequently undermined the authority of Toronto's coach-of-the-moment by donning a sweat suit and assuming a supervisory role during practice sessions. (During their initial three seasons, the Raptors went through a like number of coaches — Brendan Malone, Darrell Walker, and Butch Carter.)

In 1999, Thomas raised an estimated $9 million to become the majority owner of the Continental Basketball Association. Visiting every extant franchise, Thomas swore that the league's new ownership would augment everybody's operating expenses, and that he'd personally make unlimited appearances in each city to further promote the league. The CBA's owners, fans, and players greeted him as a savior.

During my own nine-year tenure as both an assistant and a head coach in the CBA, it was axiomatic that a sure-fire way to wind up with a small fortune was to start out with a large fortune, and then buy a CBA franchise. So why would Thomas do something as foolish as buying the whole league?

Simply because the NBA was poised to initiate its own minor league — which turned out to be the National Basketball Development League. Thomas figured that because the CBA already had arena leases and front office personnel in place, he could induce the NBA to buy him out for a huge profit. When the NBA only offered him an estimated $10 million for the whole kit-and-caboodle, Thomas lost all interest in the CBA — reneging on both his promotional and financial promises.

The resulting lawsuits and counter-suits will keep attorneys from Rockford to Yakima busy for decades.

From 2000-2003, Thomas coached the Indiana Pacers. The team's record improved from year to year (from 41 wins to 42 to 48), but never got past the first round of the playoffs. NBA insiders felt that Thomas failed to provide effective leadership and, consequently, the Pacers were classic underachievers. And through it all, Thomas acted as though he was always the Pacers' star attraction while the players were merely overpaid hirelings.

Then, just about a year ago, the Knicks hired Thomas to run the show in New York. Thomas started off with a pair of turnovers — totally mishandling the firing of Don Chaney, and replacing him with Lenny Wilkens, who is hopelessly out of touch with today's hip-hop hoopsters. Now that Wilkens has confirmed his malfeasance, Thomas can't fire him without admitting that hiring him was a mistake to begin with. In lieu of installing another new coach, Thomas isolated Willkens by canning his main man and long-time assistant, Dick Helms — replacing him with one of his own henchmen from the Pistons' glory days, the infamously Machiavellian Brendan Suhr.

Already the New York media is rife with rumors concerning Wilkens' replacement. Suhr? Assistant coach Mark Aguirre (one of Thomas' childhood buddies, as well as an ex-teammate? Or Thomas himself?

Meanwhile, Thomas has made wholesale changes in the Knicks' roster with the aim of making the team more athletic: Bringing Stephon Marbury back home (in exchange for some future draft picks and a benchful of warm bodies) was a good idea — although Marbury is a scoring guard in a point guard's body and can't handle the reins of a legitimate championship contender. Nazr Mohammed is an adequate back-up center who's frequently overmatched as a starter. Tim Thomas is a career underachiever and whiner. Even in his prime, Vin Baker was selfish and defenseless. Jamal Crawford is talented, but erratic and undisciplined.

"I like reclamation projects," says Thomas.

Too bad he's running a professional basketball team and not the Father Flanagan Home for Wayward Boys.

The cynical New York media is just beginning to discover that Thomas's feet are really water soluble. But he seems totally immune to criticism. That's because ex-players and coaches who knew him well swear that Thomas only cares about media attention and money. As long as he commands the spotlight, and continues to cash fat salary checks every two weeks, Thomas couldn't care less about what's left of his reputation.

The biggest picture is that Isiah Thomas is a phony, and under his guidance the Knicks are destined to be only good enough to break the hearts of their devoted fans. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

MavKikiNYC
11-18-2004, 12:47 PM
More on Zeke as GM and his coaches:

CHANEY WANTED SHOT WITH MARBURY

By MARC BERMAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
November 17, 2004 -- POST EXCLUSIVE

SAN ANTONIO — In breaking a nearly 10-month silence, Don Chaney says he has one regret from his Knick coaching stint. He wished Isiah Thomas would've given him a legit chance to win with Stephon Marbury as his point guard.

Last season, nine days after Marbury made his Knick debut, Chaney was fired on Jan. 14 in a messy split that drew citywide sympathy. Chaney told The Post yesterday he does not want to finish his head-coaching career on that note and will actively seek a head job this summer.

"The one regret, I wanted to see how we would have developed with Marbury," Chaney said. "The biggest regret was I finally got a quality point guard, an All-Star. Charlie Ward and Howard Eisley competed hard every night. But Marbury was an All-Star point guard. It's hard to get guys of that caliber."

Added Chaney, "I made a statement before I got fired. We'd definitely make the playoffs. I felt positive I would've made it once Marbury got there."

Tomorrow, the Knicks face the Rockets in Houston, pitting Chaney's successor, Lenny Wilkens, against Chaney's predecessor, Jeff Van Gundy. Chaney, who lives in Houston's outskirts, will not attend.

Chaney can't fathom why Thomas so quickly determined they couldn't work together. Though Thomas is a hands-on GM, Chaney said he's not opposed to that.

"He's a different type of general manager," Chaney said. "He's one that's involved. I knew that when he came in. It all depends on the relationship. They figured it out right away they wanted to make a change. We could've worked it out. They decided differently."

The Knicks are paying off the final year of Chaney's contract, about $3 million. Last May, Paul Silas offered him an assistant's job in Cleveland, but Chaney declined.

"I'm looking for a head-coaching job," said Chaney, whose Knick record was 72-112. "I don't think I'll have a problem coming back as an assistant. I'm still going to pursue being a head coach."

Chaney avoided phone calls from Knicks owner James Dolan in the aftermath of his dismissal. Chaney showed up for that night's game, was fired two hours before tip-off and escorted out of the Garden.

Chaney called the way it was handled "bothersome" but has since forgiven Dolan, once his biggest supporter.

"I wanted to remove myself for a while. And I did," Chaney said. "I have a great deal of respect for [Dolan]. I consider him a friend. We've had great conversations during my time there."

<u>Chaney said Thomas never called. "I didn't expect him do," Chaney said. "It's not who he is."</u>

As for Wilkens, Chaney said, "I think he's going a great job, he's good for the team, very experienced. I respect him a great deal."

This is the first time in 35 years, since entering the NBA in 1969, that Chaney's missed a season. "I've been spoiled I've been in the league since I joined," he said. "I miss it."

MavKikiNYC
11-18-2004, 12:51 PM
I will not be surprised if Wilkens is gone by New Years. I think Thomas is looking at the schedule, trying to find a stretch of hard games (with a heavy dose of road) followed by a home stretch against weaker Eastern Conference opponents.

He'll fire Wilkens if the NYKs come back to MSG with a weak record (or maybe period). Then he'll replace him as the NYKs hit intra-conference play against lesser teams. It'll help make it look like the coaching change was the thing to do.

You'll be spending Valentine's Day in Seattle, Lenny.

MavKikiNYC
12-10-2004, 08:26 AM
Warning: This is not satire. It is from the NYTimes, not The Onion.

Even at age 41, the bruising Malone would be an asset to any team with championship aspirations. He could make the Knicks contenders in the East just by signing a contract.



Fairy Tale or Not, Knicks Call Malone
By HOWARD BECK

Published: December 10, 2004


WASHINGTON, Dec. 9 - In the fairy-tale version of the Knicks' season, Allan Houston gallops triumphantly back from his extended vacation, lifts the spirits and play of his teammates and rekindles a dormant love affair between New York and its beleaguered basketball franchise.

In the fairy tale, Houston is still the shooting ace whose clutch play put the Knicks in the N.B.A. Finals in 1999. He is the leader they need, the anchor they have lacked.

But the Knicks do not really do fairy tales, Willis Reed notwithstanding, and no one knows what Houston has to offer after spending eight and a half months recovering from knee injuries.

They do expect Houston to make his season debut Friday night against the Wizards in Washington. And they will soon know if the man with the $100 million contract is still their best player, or merely their highest paid.

Yet even as they welcome Houston back and brace for repercussions throughout the lineup, the Knicks are exploring more dramatic changes.

Isiah Thomas, the team president, continues to pursue Toronto's Vince Carter, monitor Chicago's Eddy Curry and explore any and all moves that might push the Knicks, who are 9-9, beyond the ranks of the mediocre.

To that end, Thomas made a call Wednesday to the agent for Karl Malone, the disillusioned former Los Angeles Lakers forward. A free agent, Malone is nearly ready to play again after recovering from off-season knee surgery. But because of a recent publicized rift with Kobe Bryant, he no longer wishes to play for the Lakers.

"Isiah was very forward yesterday," Dwight Manley, Malone's longtime agent, said in a telephone interview.

Even at age 41, the bruising Malone would be an asset to any team with championship aspirations. He could make the Knicks contenders in the East just by signing a contract.

Of course that, too, is probably a fairy tale. As Manley admitted, Malone's joining the Knicks "would be a long shot."

Malone's priority has been to win a championship before he retires, and a number of true contenders, including San Antonio, Minnesota and Miami, are courting him.

The Knicks would become infinitely more attractive to Malone if they acquired Carter or another player of his caliber. But that's the fairy tale again.

In reality, the Knicks may have to stand pat for a while. They have offered Houston to Toronto, but the Raptors are not intrigued by an aging shooter with a history of knee problems and a hefty contract. Toronto has instead asked for 24-year-old Jamal Crawford, whom the Knicks will not part with.

Indeed, while half the Knicks roster has been mentioned in trade speculation, only two players - Stephon Marbury and Crawford - have been deemed untouchable by the Knicks, according to a prominent player agent.

So the Knicks will place their hopes and their faith in the players they have and hope Houston can approximate his old self. But his presence will force adjustments and potentially bruise some egos.

By the time Houston steps on the MCI Center court Friday night, the Knicks will have played 31 straight games without him and 48 of the past 57 games, counting playoffs.

Since Houston succumbed to knee injuries, the Knicks have reworked the offense around Marbury and Crawford and have sent away most of the teammates Houston had known. He has barely played with Marbury, Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed and has never played with Crawford.

"Allan's a big part of what we do," Coach Lenny Wilkens said Wednesday. "I'm anxious to get him back. Listen, I also understand it's going to take a few games. He can't step out there, and all of sudden you've got the same Allan that you had three or four years ago."

The Knicks surely need the Houston of old who routinely scored 20 points a game and was one of the best 3-point shooters in the league.

For months, the Knicks have boasted about the firepower of a three-guard rotation of Houston, Marbury and Crawford. Now comes the difficult part: making it work.

Crawford and Houston have said they will not quibble over who starts, but Crawford has been a starter throughout his pro career and Houston is a former All-Star who has started 582 games for the Knicks since 1996.

Once Penny Hardaway recovers from a hamstring strain, the Knicks will have a three-position logjam, from point guard through small forward.

"You know how guys are: everybody wants to play," Marbury said. "No one wants to sit on the bench, despite what people say. I wouldn't want to sit on the bench. So I don't think anybody else would want to. Guys get paid a lot of money, but guys also want to play."

Sacrifice will soon become the Knicks' buzzword. Crawford, Marbury, Hardaway and Tim Thomas will all have to sacrifice minutes. It is possible that Crawford or Thomas will eventually have to sacrifice his starting job.

Crawford has already declared that he will focus more on playmaking and defense than scoring, although he said it was not because of Houston's return. Crawford has, however, become mildly irritated by the speculation about his role and suspicious of questions he believes are designed to provoke controversy.

Marbury said there should be no debates.

"Allan's one of our best players, if not our best player," he said. "When Allan comes back, if he wants to play 40 minutes and he can, he's going to play 40 minutes, period. I don't even know why we're talking about this, to really be honest. I mean, that's just how it is."

MavKikiNYC
01-19-2005, 08:20 AM
Not Everyone Thinks the Knicks Stink; Just Ask the Knicks
By DAVE CALDWELL

Published: January 19, 2005

GREENBURGH, N.Y., Jan. 18 - Lenny Wilkens sounded on Tuesday as if he planned to be coaching the Knicks for a while. He said that he told his bedraggled players to keep paying attention to him, and that they were improving.

"I'm going to do my job," Wilkens said, "and whatever happens, happens."

The Knicks (17-20) have lost seven of their last eight games to fall three games under .500 for the first time this season.

But there were no hints at the Knicks' practice facility on Tuesday that the team's president, Isiah Thomas, might replace Wilkens before the Knicks plunge out of contention.

Wilkens said he showed the Knicks film of the Philadelphia 76ers' 32-point loss last week to the Chicago Bulls, to whom the Knicks have lost twice since Saturday. There was a point.

"We have made some progress," Wilkens said.

It is hard to tell, of course, because the Knicks are backsliding in the anemic Atlantic Division. Monday's loss to the Bulls left them in a three-way tie for first with the 76ers and the Boston Celtics.

The division is so bad that were the season to end today, only the winner would make the playoffs. But the Knicks see a chance to snap back on Wednesday against Toronto (16-23), an even worse team.

"We always knew that the title didn't mean anything when you look at our record," Allan Houston said, referring to the division lead. "But we also know we're not that far away."

The Knicks have had bad luck this season with injuries.

"If you'd have a full team and things are going bad, then you can put most of the blame on the coach," Stephon Marbury said.

Marbury said it was not fair to pin the blame for the Knicks' slide on Wilkens. The Knicks, he said, are actually playing better now than they were a month ago. He cited a Dec. 21 game in which they fell behind Dallas by 16 points after the first quarter.

"When we did have our horses, we were winning," Marbury said.

Wilkens said the injuries had made it difficult for the team to find its rhythm. With a weak chuckle, he said Monday's game was unusual because "we had guys back for a change."

Houston has played 19 games since returning from a sore left knee, and he is so tired of talking about his medical condition that he now refuses to answer questions about it. "I'm not talking about my knees anymore," he said Tuesday.

Houston played at least 30 minutes in the last seven games that Jamal Crawford missed. Crawford played Monday against the Bulls after missing 10 games with a sprained right big toe. He scored 8 points in 27 minutes and missed all seven of his 3-point shots.

"That tells me my legs aren't there," Crawford said.

Neither, apparently, are Houston's. Monday's game was only the second in his last nine games in which he made at least half of his field-goal attempts, and he was only 5 for 10.

"What everybody forgets is that he was off for a long time," Wilkens said with an edge in his voice.

Penny Hardaway is out indefinitely with a strained right hamstring, and Tim Thomas, who started the Knicks' first 33 games, missed three games with knee and calf injuries before playing four minutes on Monday. He plans to play against the Raptors.

The Knicks are mildly encouraged with their defense; they have held their last three opponents to 88, 86 and 88 points.

"The defense has been fine," forward Kurt Thomas said. "We just have to get the stops we need."

If anyone can put a positive spin on back-to-back last-minute losses to the Bulls, who are still a sub-.500 team, the Knicks can. At least they were in a position to win, Marbury said. At least they are slowly getting healthier.

"We haven't made it halfway through the season," Crawford said. "We're not going to quit yet."

MavKikiNYC
01-22-2005, 08:39 AM
Zeke the Punk claims another scalp.

Clearly, the Dolans aren't paying attention.

LEN THROWING IN THE TOWEL

By MARC BERMAN

January 22, 2005 -- Knick coach Lenny Wilkens will resign this morning after a 40-minute meeting with team president Isiah Thomas following last night's heartbreaking 92-91 loss to the Rockets at the Garden, according to sources.

"Lenny is doing some thinking," Thomas told The Post and two other reporters following the meeting. "We'll see where he is [this] morning. This is a tough situation. I would imagine he's in the thought process where Hubie Brown was in his thought process."

Brown quit as Grizzlies coach in November, citing health reasons and loss of passion for the game.

Thomas is heavily considering appointing assistant coach Herb Williams as interim, The Post has learned.

Williams is the only one of the assistant staff with head-coaching experience — one game.

Williams is 1-0, guiding the Knicks last season to a win against Orlando the night Don Chaney got axed. It's not totally clear if


Williams will finish out the season or is a stopgap.

Thomas did not specify who might take over for Wilkens but it looks like he'll pass on his buddy Mark Aguirre, Brendan Suhr and young coaching stud Mike Malone.

The Knicks have lost five straight and nine of 10 games to fall five games under the .500 mark.

"Nobody got fired," insisted Thomas, who will keep his promise and not head to the bench himself.

However, the Knicks also claimed assistant coach Dick Helm resigned in November — but Helm actually was fired.

During the interview, Thomas assigned no blame to Wilkens, indicating it was totally his call, indicating Wilkens may not want to be part of a newfangled rebuilding process at age 67.

Wilkens has at least one more year guaranteed on his pact at about $5 million. The next year after may be non-guaranteed.

"It's tough and it's painful, but this is what you've got to go through," Thomas said. "My job is to make sure I think long term. Not only do we have a team good enough to compete this year but next year, too. What's happened so many times, you always want short-term quick fixes. This is not a short-term quick fix. This is a long, slow, steady, painful climb. We're in a transition. That's how it is. Don't make me do anything rash."

Wilkens lasted a little more than a year on the job, and Thomas revealed the Knicks may be entering a new rebuilding phase.

Last night, Jeff Van Gundy and the Rockets got payback on the reeling Knicks with a desperation game-winning buzzer-beater by Scott Padgett — though this loss was caused by the mindless possession right before, when the Knicks committed a 24-second violation.

The Knick backcourt of Stephon Marbury and Jamal Crawford combined to mess up what could've been a turn-around evening. It seems like eons ago that Crawford was a hero in Houston in November when he stunned the Rockets with a game-winning banked 3-pointer.

Last night, both guards ran scared in the last seconds, declining to shoot the ball with the Knicks clinging to a 91-90 lead. The Knicks had control after Yao Ming's attempt to save a ball from going out of bounds landed in Marbury's hands with 34 seconds left. Marbury dribbled upcourt and worked the shot clock down as he stood near midcourt.

With five seconds left on the shot clock, he drove to the top of the circle, pulled up and lifted for a jumper. But Marbury decided to suddenly drop the ball off the Crawford on the right wing with two seconds left.

Crawford claimed he wasn't surprised but never got a good handle, so he passed it back to Marbury, who caught it as the buzzer sounded, giving the Rockets the ball with 10.2 seconds left. On the game's final play, Padgett drove just inside the free-throw line, past Crawford, as Marbury stepped up on him. Padgett flipped up an off-balance 10-footer that rattled in as the buzzer sounded.

MavKikiNYC
01-22-2005, 08:47 AM
"It's tough and it's painful, but this is what you've got to go through," Thomas said. "My job is to make sure I think long term. Not only do we have a team good enough to compete this year but next year, too. What's happened so many times, you always want short-term quick fixes. This is not a short-term quick fix. This is a long, slow, steady, painful climb. We're in a transition. That's how it is. Don't make me do anything rash."

This is the funny part to me. Was Zeke "thinking" long-term 12 months ago when he axed Don Cheney and tried to paste Lenny Wilkens' legacy over his own gaping credibility hole?

Fire Zeke now.

sike
01-22-2005, 06:01 PM
link (http://www.nba.com/knicks/news/wilkens_050122.html )
Wilkens Resigns as Head Coach


NEW YORK, January 22, 2005 – New York Knickerbockers President of Basketball Operations Isiah Thomas announced today the resignation of Head Coach Lenny Wilkens and named Assistant Coach Herb Williams the new head coach.
“There are very few people in the sports-world or in society that combine great talent with class, dignity and humility. But these qualities have been Lenny’s trademark throughout his Hall-of-Fame life and career. He agreed to come to New York last season during an extremely difficult time, and his presence played a major role in reconnecting the Knicks to the pride of this city,” Thomas said. “On behalf of everyone in the entire Knicks organization, I want to thank Lenny for his commitment to this team and express our deep disappointment we are losing a great coach.”

Wilkens, the winningest coach in NBA history finished his Knicks career with a 40-41 mark since his hiring on Jan. 15, 2004 last season. After taking over a team with a 16-24 record during 2003-04, the 67-year-old Brooklyn, NY-native guided the Knicks to a third-place finish in the Atlantic Division and its first playoff berth in three years. Wilkens, a Naismith Hall-of-Fame inductee as both a player and coach, has an all-time coaching record of 1,332-1,1155 (.536).

“We are pleased to give Herb Williams this opportunity to be the head coach of the New York Knicks, and we’ll do everything we can to help him succeed. We are confident that we can continue to give our fans the kind of competitive basketball they expect and deserve,” added Thomas.

Williams, an assistant on the Knicks bench since Dec. 29, 2001, is the senior member of the team’s coaching staff and has been with the organization since his playing days, starting in 1992. Now in his fourth season as a coach and 11th season overall in New York, the 46-year-old Columbus, OH-native was the head coach for the team’s entry in the 2004 Summer Pro League in Long Beach, CA and the co-head coach on the team’s two entries during the 2003 summer league sessions. He is also credited with a regular season win on Jan. 14, 2004, one day prior to Wilkens’ arrival in New York.

“While it is an honor and privilege to be named as the head coach of this storied franchise, there is still a lot work that needs to get done to continue to point our team in the right direction,” Williams said. “The opportunity that has been given to me by Isiah is one that I will cherish for the rest of my career.”

Originally signed as a free agent on Nov. 15, 1992, Williams spent seven seasons in the blue and orange – and as a member of the 1994 and 1999 Eastern Conference Championship teams - until his retirement following 1998-99. As a force in the Knicks locker room as a true leader, the 6-11 center had the distinction of being named Knicks captain for three seasons from 1996-97 through 1998-99, along with Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley and Larry Johnson. Also as a member of the Indiana Pacers, Dallas Mavericks and Toronto Raptors, Williams played for 18 NBA seasons and was one of just eight players in NBA history to appear in a game following his 41st birthday.

EricaLubarsky
02-01-2005, 12:31 AM
just lost to the Clips.

which means they've won 2 of their last 15.

sike
02-01-2005, 12:41 AM
boy they suck.....I need Marbury to help my fantasy team and he's been tanking the past two weeks.

EricaLubarsky
02-01-2005, 12:59 AM
he's been doing alright...56% shooting, 20pts, 7assists, 3 rebounds...

not allstar but good...

its the TO's (Marbury had 5), team rebounding, and defense that's really killing the Knicks.

sike
02-01-2005, 01:09 AM
trust me...the last two weeks.....not good

dirno2000
02-05-2005, 12:51 AM
The Knicks outdid themselves tonight, losing a game despite being up by 5 with 43 seconds remaining. Anfernee Hardaway is awful, Marburry scored a lot of points until it really mattered, and I'm not quite sure if Herb Williams knows that Lenny Wilkins resigned.

MavKikiNYC
02-05-2005, 07:54 AM
Where the Dolans' attention is:

Owner of Garden Outbids Jets For Stadium Site
By CHARLES V. BAGLI

Published: February 5, 2005

The owner of Madison Square Garden, after spending many months and millions of dollars trying to prevent the Jets and the city from building a football stadium on the West Side, played its boldest card yet yesterday, offering to pay far more for the land than the Jets have proposed.

Cablevision, which owns the Garden, said it would pay $600 million to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority for the right to build office buildings and housing at the 13-acre West Side railyards. The offer includes the price of a $250 million deck over the yards for the development.

The Jets, on the other hand, have offered the M.T.A. $100 million for the land, with the city and state splitting the cost of the deck. The authority has asked the Jets to pay $300 million for the parcel.With the Jets and the authority heading toward arbitration in the matter, the Cablevision offer throws a deliberate wrench into the politically charged negotiation between the parties. The authority has been assailed by stadium opponents and transit advocates who have said that it is not seeking enough money from the Jets for the land, and that it could make more money for the transit system if it considered another proposal.

Whether Cablevision is serious about becoming a real estate developer or whether it is simply trying to embarrass the Jets and the M.T.A., its offer demonstrates the enormous sums and political forces at stake in the stadium battle. It could succeed at driving up the price of the land beyond the point at which the Jets would be able to afford a stadium - ending what the Dolan family, which owns Cablevision, has always said would be a threat to its sports arena over Pennsylvania Station.

And the move comes just two weeks before the International Olympic Committee is due in New York to assess the city's bid for the 2012 Olympic games, which hinges on the use of the stadium for Olympic events. Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg has hoped to demonstrate to the committee that the stadium is a virtual certainty.

The Bloomberg administration and the Jets took a harsh view of the latest tactic from a company that has paid for television ads denouncing the stadium proposal and Mayor Bloomberg. City officials said the Cablevision plan would take longer to evolve than the stadium, depriving the city of years of revenue.

"This is a desperate, last minute attempt to derail a project that will create thousands of jobs, more than $1 billion in tax revenue, and allow New York to realize its Olympic dreams by building a world class sports and convention center," said Deputy Mayor Daniel L. Doctoroff in a statement released yesterday. "A Friday afternoon press release doesn't replace years of planning, design, negotiation and public review from which this project has benefited."

City officials also said Cablevision had not explained how it would pay for the project, although the city has never fully described its financial plan for a share of the stadium costs.

The Jets, who recently redesigned plans for the stadium in an attempt to mollify critics, also blasted Cablevision.

"This is a desperate ploy and a cynical P.R. gimmick by a company that has already demonstrated that it will do anything to protect its monopoly," said Marissa Shorenstein, a Jets spokeswoman.

Cablevision's $600 million offer came in the form of a letter to Peter S. Kalikow, chairman of the M.T.A., from the Garden's vice chairman, Hank Ratner. He said the Garden would develop a "dynamic mixed-use community," including a hotel, housing, recreation, entertainment and office space that would serve as "a beautiful, dramatic and vital neighbor to the newly expanded Javits Convention Center."

Mr. Ratner estimated that it would cost $250 million to build a deck and expressed a willingness to share the cost of any overruns. Although the Garden is not known for building skyscrapers, real estate executives say the company would have little trouble finding an experienced development partner.

The offer came as a surprise to the M.T.A. and stunned City Hall, which had been hoping that the M.T.A. board would agree next week to send its dispute with the Jets to arbitration.

"This is the first indication we have received from the Garden after months of public discussion that they are interested in our property," said Tom Kelly, a spokesman for the authority. "We are reviewing the proposal."

The M.T.A., which is facing service cuts and multibillion-dollar gaps in its capital budget, will not reject the offer out of hand. Mr. Kelly said that Mr. Kalikow's main concern is obtaining the best financial deal he can for the M.T.A. and its customers. But the authority does want to conclude a deal quickly and, executives involved in West Side development say, the authority could ask for final offers for the site before the M.T.A. board meets on Feb. 24.

Gov. George E. Pataki has publicly supported the Bloomberg administration's effort to build the $1.4 billion stadium and the state's development arm would oversee the project, which would be on state-controlled land. But despite pledging $300 million for the stadium, the governor has often left it to Mr. Bloomberg to do the heavy lifting.

Many real estate executives say privately that land on the once dormant West Side has recently become a hot commodity.

"This underscores what we've said all along," said Robert Yaro, president of the Regional Plan Association, which opposes the stadium. "This is a valuable site and the M.T.A. has a responsibility to get the highest dollar amount."

State Senator Thomas K. Duane, a Democrat who represents the West Side and opposes the stadium, embraced Cablevision's offer. "We always wanted competition, to see what's best for the site, for the M.T.A., the West Side and for the city. I think this is a genuine attempt to provide other options for the use of this site."

Cablevision's stock closed yesterday at $27.32, down 10 cents.

MavKikiNYC
02-06-2005, 07:08 AM
Now we know.

Dolan Says His Role Is Just to Sign the Checks
By HOWARD BECK

Published: February 6, 2005


SACRAMENTO, Feb. 5 - To hear James L. Dolan tell it, he is nothing more than the banker who permits the Knicks to spend freely, an enabler for the roster-building plans of Isiah Thomas and, above all else, merely another frustrated fan, watching helplessly as the team plummets in the Atlantic Division.

As the chairman of Madison Square Garden, Dolan is effectively the Knicks' owner and the final authority on everything related to the team.

But in a 25-minute meeting with reporters here late Friday night, his first extensive interview this season, Dolan disavowed having a hand in the Knicks' maneuverings, including the departure of Coach Lenny Wilkens last month.

Everything, Dolan said, is in the hands of Thomas, the team president.

"I think it would be - I don't know what the word is - presumptuous of me to go in and suggest moves with the team to Isiah," Dolan said. "Because I'm not a professional basketball person. I'm not telling you I'm not involved; I sign those checks. My involvement is primarily resources."

By resources, Dolan is referring mainly to the team's $103 million payroll, by far the highest in the N.B.A. For that immense sum, the Knicks have won only 18 of 46 games this season, and 2 of their last 17.

The team's unexpected struggles led to the resignation of Wilkens on Jan. 22, although there were indications that the decision was not entirely voluntary. The precise details are unclear, but according to one report, Dolan fired Wilkens.

Responding to the assertion, Dolan said, "No."

Rather, he characterized the departure as a mutual decision made by Thomas and Wilkens.

"There really wasn't much role for me to play, other than to support my president and general manager and Lenny in the decision that he made," Dolan said.

Among the more curious aspects of Wilkens's departure was that the team announced it would honor his contract. Typically, only a coach who is terminated receives his full salary.

"He resigned," Dolan said. "I guess that's just part of the deal. We accepted his resignation. It was between Lenny and Isiah, and obviously Isiah and Lenny agreed that there needed to be a change."

The Knicks' fortunes, however, have not changed since then. Under Coach Herb Williams, the Knicks have lost six of seven games. Injuries to several key players - Jamal Crawford, Allan Houston, Tim Thomas and Penny Hardaway - have fueled the slide.

But the Knicks have also proved strikingly fragile in the final minutes of close games, and their on-court chemistry has been lacking all season.

Despite a roster overhaul by Thomas, who assumed his role 13 months ago, the Knicks are in last place in the division and appear headed for a fourth straight losing season.

The goal is to contend for a championship, Dolan said, but he endorsed Thomas's moves and echoed his calls for patience in the short term.

"Isiah knows that I support him, and he's been very clear with me that we're in a situation where I should not expect a run at the championship this year," Dolan said. "So far, he's been real correct about that."

Under Thomas, the Knicks have become younger and more athletic and probably more talented. He acquired four of the team's opening-night starters - Crawford, Stephon Marbury, Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed - and the Knicks initially appeared on course for a solid season. They beat Cleveland, Denver, Orlando and Minnesota and were 16-13 on Dec. 29, three games over .500 for the first time since April 2001.

Yet the Knicks are now behind last season's pace (20-26 after 46 games). Dolan said it was too soon to give up on the playoffs, or a .500 season.

"I hope the rest of the Knicks fans think this, but I still like the direction of the team," Dolan said. "Isiah has set a course, and he's sticking to it. And he's not knee-jerking moves because of this slump."

The franchise's next major move could be to hire Phil Jackson, the former Knick who has expressed an interest in coaching the team. Jackson and Thomas have made their mutual interest known to one another. Dolan said he had not become involved, but he said that if Thomas wanted to hire Jackson, "He will not be limited by the resources."

At the moment, the future of the franchise is a little unclear. Dolan has recently feuded with his father, Charles, over the direction of Cablevision, and there has been speculation that the company could be sold.

And who will be the owner of the Knicks for the foreseeable future? "As far as I know, I'm going to be," Dolan said.

Asked if there was any reason to believe he would not continue in that role, Dolan said: "You guys are hysterical. Do you ever read the rest of the newspapers that you write for? There's this thing called the business section. If you read that, the company clearly is going through some changes.

"I know of no plan to change our ownership of the Knicks and I know of no plan to change my position at the Garden. And I would have something to say about it if there was. But we've had no discussions like that."

GP
02-06-2005, 08:06 AM
Unexpected troubles? Has Howard Beck ever watched a basketball game in his life? Has he ever watched a team dominated by Stephon Marbury? I don't think the Knicks hard times were unexpected at all. All of their good players play the same position. They play below average power forwards at center. They were banking on Sweetney. This team has lots of holes and lots of ill fitting parts. Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed as starters? Come on man get with the program. Oh, its a surprise that Crawford, Houston and Hardaway are injured!!!! At this juncture I'd bet that Crawford has missed more games in his career due to injury than he's actually played. Penny is starting to push the envelope on that one too. Earlier in the year wasn't the Knicks trying to get rid of Penny because he wanted to play instead of being on the injured list? Now that he's actually injured it is costing the Knicks games?

MavKikiNYC
02-12-2005, 01:42 PM
NYPost's Berman steps to the head of the Kool-Aid line.

LOTTERY TICKET

By MARC BERMAN

February 12, 2005 -- BOSTON — Australian 7-foot center Andrew Bogut of Utah. Small forwards Rudy Gay of UConn and Marvin Williams of North Carolina. Point guard Chris Paul of Wake Forest.

Get used to the names, Knick fans. They are the cream of the lottery — and the Knicks are well on their way to official admission.

If the Knicks were going to make a playoff push, it had to start last night against the Atlantic Division-leading Celtics. It didn't happen. Not last night. Not ever.

Instead, the Knicks crumbled during an 11-point third quarter and left Beantown with a 111-94 bruising at FleetCenter.

The last-place Knicks sank a season-worst 12 games under .500 (19-31) and 61/2 games out of the Atlantic Division lead. Winning the Atlantic is likely the only way of sneaking into the playoffs, but the Knicks are 3-18 in 2005 during this historic crash.

"When you lose a division game, it's a double whammy," interim coach Herb Williams said. "We still have a lot of games to go. It has been done before."

Even the Celtics' public-address announcer wailed on the Knicks after their 11-point third. After the period ended, a shootout contest was held and the fan missed every shot.

"That's OK," the P.A. announcer mocked. "You can have the 150 bucks anyway. Maybe you can play for the Knicks. You're at the same level."

Afterward, Tim Thomas, playing with a sprained finger and fouling out in 18 minutes, sat motionless for 10 minutes by his locker in only a white towel. Teammates had to coax him to take a shower.

"It's just frustrating, man," Thomas said.

Can the Knicks get out of this?

"I'm not sure," he said.

The Knicks played awful defense, and the 27-11 third quarter vaulted the Celtics to a 22-point lead after three quarters. The Knicks felt they had turned a corner the past four games, competing in each one, even winning once, in Utah.

"We definitely took a step back tonight, we played no way as hard as the previous games," said Stephon Marbury, who was kept in the game the whole fourth quarter and finished with 31 padded points.

"Our effort was sporadic. We have to keep fighting. We got to continue to play hard. It's too easy to basically give up."

The Knicks got no spark from the return of Jamal Crawford, who came off the bench after missing two games with a sprained ankle. He was 0-for-5, scoreless in 20 minutes. Williams called him "tentative."

Crawford said, "I wasn't out there long enough. I wasn't going to go out there jacking shots."

Meanwhile, Boston (26-25), which has routed the Knicks in all three games this season, received a big effort from reserve Ricky Davis, who creamed the Knicks in halfcourt and transition, with 25 points in 32 minutes.

The Knicks did not rotate smartly at the 3-point line as Boston drilled 9 of 15, with Paul Pierce (3 of 4 on 3-poiners) feasting. Pierce (17 points, 31 minutes) spent much of the fourth leisurely on the bench, legs crossed, as if watching croquet.

The Knicks committed six turnovers in the third, three by Kurt Thomas. "We just got careless with the ball," Williams said.

It started getting ugly three minutes into the third. Nazr Mohammed, who played with a sprained groin, got blocked inside by Raef LaFrentz and Boston center came down to nailed a 3-pointer for a 65-53 lead.

After Boston ran out to a 16-5 lead, the Knicks regrouped with a 13-0 run to take a second-quarter advantage. But then they folded midway through the second for good.

During one sequence, Jiri Welsch fed Davis on the break, but he was too far under the basket. Davis managed a behind-the-head bounce pass to young big man Kendrick Perkins for a slam. Two possessions later, Perkins blocked Marbury twice on one possession and the rout was on.

MavKikiNYC
02-17-2005, 07:55 AM
"My billions are bigger than your billions....."

Mayor takes shots in stadium smackdown

BY GLENN THRUSH AND HARRY BERKOWITZ
STAFF WRITERS

February 16, 2005, 11:21 PM EST

The West Side stadium fight is fast becoming a no-holds-barred, billionaire-on-billionaire smackdown.

Wednesday, Mayor Michael Bloomberg took his biggest shot to date at Cablevision owners Charles and James Dolan, accusing the stadium foes of fouling up nearly every business they've run, including Madison Square Garden, their sports teams -- even defunct electronics retailer The Wiz.

The Dolans "don't exactly know how to run that team [the Rangers], they don't know how to run Madison Square Garden, they don't know how to run the Knicks," Bloomberg said at a Washington Heights senior center where he was making an announcement about housing.

Ridiculing Cablevision's proposal to build a residential/retail complex in place of the Jets/Olympics stadium, the mayor quipped, "Do you really want the guy that ran The Wiz to run a bunch of housing on the West Side?"

Bloomberg, whose net worth is estimated at $5 billion, said Cablevision's "stockholders should certainly be questioning what on earth is going on.

The mayor's comments came on a day when the Jets aired a round of anti-Cablevision ads -- and a day after Metropolitan Transportation Authority chairman Peter Kalikow announced his agency would consider all bids on the site until March 21.

So far, the Dolans, who are estimated to be worth at least $1 billion, are the only group apart from the Jets to make a pitch. Bloomberg claims their proposal, which would use $600 million in private funding, was hatched merely to derail the stadium deal. The Jets deal will cost taxpayers $600 million.

Cablevision, which has bankrolled its own string of TV ads ridiculing the Jets plan and accusing Bloomberg of fudging key details, referred comment yesterday to a company-funded neighborhood group.

"The overwhelming majority of New Yorkers are clearly opposed to spending $600 million in public funds for a football stadium," said Anna Levin of the New York Association for Better Choices. "Attacking Cablevision has not changed anyone's mind."

Yesterday, the mayor endorsed the MTA's bid process, saying he was confident the Jets plan would defeat all comers.

"Anybody that wants to bid on the air rights over the Hudson Yards should call the MTA right now and send them a letter with the details and how they're going to pay for it," he said. "If you've got a better plan, fine."

Later, the mayor called on the MTA to reject any plan that would take longer to build than the Jets' proposal, saying Cablevision's bid might take three extra years to clear environmental hurdles.

"The mayor's concerns will obviously be brought to the board's attention," MTA spokesman Tom Kelly said.

The Jets commercials, which have begun airing on local channels, cite the level of salary and bonuses Cablevision granted chief executive James Dolan and the "money pit" represented by its failed Voom nationwide satellite TV venture.

The commercial directs viewers to a Web site called stopcablevision.com, which is run by the year-old group westsidestadium.org and its organizer Tom McMorrow Jr., a Chelsea resident who backs the Jets plan. McMorrow said the Jets have contributed nearly $30,000 to the group, whose Web site asks people to e-mail complaints to the Cablevision board of directors.

McMorrow said the Jets have tried to be careful not to appear too linked to his group so as not to appear too similar to Cablevision in its tactics. Cablevision has funneled much of its campaign against the stadium through New York Association for Better Choices.

MavKikiNYC
02-26-2005, 03:05 PM
Isiah Thomas's cry for help: "STOP ME BEFORE I MAKE A PURPOSELESS TRADE AGAIN!"

Knicks Add New Parts Without Assembly Plan
By DAVE CALDWELL

Published: February 26, 2005

GREENBURGH, N.Y., Feb. 25 - Michael Sweetney says he is willing to play whenever and wherever he is told, which makes him perfect for the newest version of the Knicks. They seem to have a lot of parts of roughly the same size in the body shop.

"I'll just keep doing what I've been doing when my name is called," Sweetney said Friday after practice.

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After two roster-jumbling trades at the N.B.A. trade deadline Thursday, the Knicks (22-33) are loaded with forwards. That did not make a difference to guard Stephon Marbury, who said the Knicks had become better.

"It gives us some depth," Marbury said.

Referring to the maneuvering by Isiah Thomas, the team president, Marbury said: "I think it moves us forward. I don't think Isiah would do anything to set us going backwards."

Later, when asked if the Knicks' chemistry had been disrupted, Marbury said: "The thing that's important is making the playoffs. And that's it."

Yes, the Knicks still think they can make the playoffs, even though they have not won two games in a row since Dec. 29. The Knicks entered Friday five games behind the Atlantic Division leader, the Boston Celtics.

The Knicks still did not have enough players for practice Friday because their two newest players - Malik Rose and Maurice Taylor - arrived in New York on Friday morning and had physical examinations.

Herb Williams, the interim coach, stood alone at midcourt at the end of practice, a basketball under his left arm, his right hand in his pocket. He watched four players shoot free throws at one end of the floor and five players shoot at the other.

Rose and Taylor are expected to be available for the game Saturday at Madison Square Garden against the Indiana Pacers, though Williams had only a general idea of how much he would use them and where they would play.

"It's the N.B.A.," Williams said. "There were tons of trades. A lot of teams are going through it."

Rose, a 6-foot-7 forward, was obtained along with two first-round picks from the San Antonio Spurs for center Nazr Mohammed and guard Jamison Brewer. Williams said Rose was a better defender and rebounder than Taylor.

"He works guys hard," Williams said of Rose. "He's a very physical and very active player."

Taylor, a 6-9 forward, was obtained from Houston for guard Moochie Norris, forward Vin Baker and a second-round draft pick.

Taylor has a better jump shot than Rose and is more likely, Williams said, to be a small forward than a power forward.

Sweetney, who started at power forward in the Knicks' 113-101 victory Thursday over the Philadelphia 76ers, will probably continue to do so, with the former power forward, Kurt Thomas, remaining at center.

"Kurt is the one guy I know can play center," Williams said. "Any time I can move a guy around, he's the guy I feel comfortable with."

<u>Kurt Thomas probably did not gain much clout with Isiah Thomas when he said Wednesday that they had practically no relationship and that Marbury was the only player he could think of who had a pipeline to Thomas's office.</u>

"He plays for the New York Knicks," Williams said of Kurt Thomas. "I don't think it's a tough sell. He's just a professional."

But Williams reserved the right to change his mind about Sweetney. Rose or Taylor could end up replacing him as a starter.

Williams seemed to be sure only that Jamal Crawford would slide over from shooting guard to give Marbury a breather.

Or maybe Penny Hardaway could do that, Williams added.

With a 6-9 starter at center and the rarely used Bruno Sundov their only player taller than 7 feet, the Knicks would seem to be more susceptible to being pounded by a formidable center like Shaquille O'Neal of the Miami Heat.

"We've been doing that all year," a chuckling Williams said of using a lineup that has been several inches too small.

Williams will need to pare the playbook until Rose and Taylor can catch up. He said he did not think that would be a problem for either player - most teams run versions of basic plays, he said. But the Knicks will not be catching opponents unprepared.

On Wednesday, the day before the trading deadline, Williams said the Knicks would need time to adjust to any roster changes. The Knicks have barely had time to adjust to his coaching the team instead of Lenny Wilkens.

"Whatever happens, happens," Sweetney said, shrugging his shoulders.

Sweetney was asked if he had been told if he would start Saturday. He said he would be starting.

After a pause, he added: "I guess. Who knows?"

That seems to have become the team's motto.

Misfit Mav
02-26-2005, 03:55 PM
The Knicks may have done the impossible-- found a GM worse than Scott Layden.

Pirate
02-26-2005, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by: Misfit Mav
The Knicks may have done the impossible-- found a GM worse than Scott Layden.

Forum line of the week.

dirno2000
02-26-2005, 05:06 PM
From the Sports Guy:

----------------------------

You know what would be a good TV show? A reality show where Isiah Thomas runs something into the ground every year. One year, it could be a sports league or a cable-TV network. The next year, a movie studio. The year after that, a record company. The year after that, a third-world country. And so on. We could call it "The Midas Touch."

GP
02-27-2005, 08:10 AM
That is just hilarious. I think the sports guy is a riot. I don't understand why Thomas would trade for 2 power forwards when probably his most consistent big man is a PF who is pretty good. Now they have like 4 power forwards on their roster and Kurt Thomas is still better than the other 3. Not to mention he is a guy who always suits up for every game and gives great effort.

MavKikiNYC
02-28-2005, 07:27 AM
ZEKE'S BLOCKBUSTER SIGNING!

Center Signs With the Knicks
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: February 28, 2005

By The Associated Press

Jackie Butler, a 19-year-old center from the Continental Basketball Association, signed with the Knicks yesterday to fill their active roster.

Butler, 6 feet 10 inches and 250 pounds, signed as a free agent for the rest of the season. He was averaging 18.1 points, 10.7 rebounds and 1.5 blocks for the Great Lakes Storm.

Butler finished high school in Virginia Beach, Va., and was not selected as an early-entry candidate in the 2004 draft.

Before the trade deadline last week, the Knicks acquired two first-round draft picks and forward Malik Rose from San Antonio for Nazr Mohammed and Jamison Brewer. In a separate deal, they acquired forward Maurice Taylor from the Houston Rockets for Vin Baker, Moochie Norris and a No. 2 pick.

Poindexter Einstein
02-28-2005, 10:10 AM
I am inclined to dogpile Thomas (who deserves it), and to laugh at this free agent signing ...

...but in all fairness, if you could travel back in your time travel machine, you would likely grab free agent kids who were toiling in obscurity outside the NBA - such as Ben Wallace or Brad Miller. Wallace was undrafted, went to the CBA and then to Italy, and then finally got inked by Washington (and bounced fron Washington to Orlando and finally to Detroit . Miller went undrafted and began in Italy, before signing with Charlotte. He moved from Charlotte to Chicago and then Indiana where he hit All-Star game status.

Obviously this stuff is a long shot - but lets be reminded that this has worked out in the past at various times.

seal614
02-28-2005, 01:09 PM
The midas touch indeed, Thomas absolutely sucks.

MavKikiNYC
03-27-2005, 10:40 PM
A Rose by any other name.......


March 28, 2005
The Knicks' Playoff Hopes Slowly Setting in the West
By HOWARD BECK

SAN FRANCISCO, March 27 - Malik Rose has not worn a Knicks uniform long enough to feel its full weight, nor has he endured enough misery to properly diagnose the malady that afflicts them.

But his shoulders are starting to sag along with the rest of them, and Rose - the former San Antonio Spur, who never missed the playoffs in eight professional seasons - is starting to get a sense of things.

"Everything has a reason," Rose said after Saturday night's collapse against the Trail Blazers in Portland, a loss that probably wiped out the Knicks' postseason hopes. "I can't put my finger on it right now. I have a few ideas."

Everyone does, though the public dissection probably will not begin in earnest for another week or two, when the Knicks (29-39) are formally eliminated.

They were five games out of the playoff field as of Sunday afternoon, with 14 games left. Weekend losses in Seattle and Portland left the Knicks with an 8-25 road record, and they have games at Golden State and at the Los Angeles Lakers before heading home.

What once was a reasonable hope of making the playoffs now seems a hopeless fantasy. The Knicks are 11th in the East and need considerable help from the three teams ahead of them - Philadelphia (34-34), Orlando (32-37) and the Nets (32-38).

The 76ers occupied the eighth and final playoff slot Sunday but have perhaps the toughest schedule. They play nine probable playoff teams, including Miami, Phoenix and Dallas, in their final 13 regular-season games.

The Nets play half of their final 12 games at home. They play five likely playoff teams (plus Philadelphia), but have no games left against the league's upper echelon.

Orlando, plagued by injuries and upheaval, is the most likely to plummet. In its final 13 games, the Magic play nine probable playoff teams, including Detroit (twice), Miami and Dallas.

The Knicks could still benefit from a softer schedule. They play eight losing teams in their final 14 games, including two games against the Nets. But they also have eight road games left, and based on season-long trends, would be fortunate to win two.

Even with a healthy roster in the latter half of the season, even with the increased discipline that has marked Coach Herb Williams's tenure, the Knicks remain a fragile team in close games and in road games.

And their delusions of mere mediocrity have been shattered.

With a victory in reach, and the entire season hanging in the balance, the Knicks lost in overtime at Seattle on Friday, then had another fourth-quarter meltdown at Portland. One night, they were squandering a golden opportunity to beat one of the league's best teams, the next night they were finding a way to lose to one of the worst.

"We've got to find some way to get over the hump and win these close games at the end," Williams said.

That is a project for next fall, perhaps.

With three more losses, the Knicks will have their fourth straight losing season, despite 15 months of furious maneuvering by the team president, Isiah Thomas. And Rose will experience a bitter taste he never knew all those years in San Antonio.

"We had a system," Rose said of the Spurs, who also, incidentally, have Tim Duncan. Rose referred to the Spurs' ability to grind out close games and noted that the Knicks once had it too, several coaches and a few dozen players ago.

"Let's not forget, a few years ago this team was a perennial late playoff team," Rose said. "It's just they've fallen on some hard times right now. They still have the attitude, it's just some of the new guys we have don't really know it yet, and just got thrust into a tough situation, from what I can see."

The reference, perhaps, was to youngsters like Mike Sweetney and Trevor Ariza, who are playing larger roles than anyone envisioned this season, and to Jamal Crawford, who was acquired to platoon with Allan Houston at shooting guard, not replace him.

As difficult as the last month has been for Rose, who was acquired at the Feb. 24 trading deadline, he remains impressed by the Knicks' resolve.

"The bottom line is, Herb's pushing, all the fellas are pushing," Rose said. "We believe in one another, and we're learning to trust one another more and more each day. That's the sign of a good team."

As for that oblique reference to the ideas he had about the Knicks' problems, Rose held his analysis in check.

"I can't put my finger on one of them, so I'm going to mull over all of them, so I can better gauge it," he said.

Soon, it seems, they will all have ample time to do so.

....plays on a lottery team.

MavKikiNYC
03-29-2005, 08:17 AM
I guess if Vescey REALLY wanted to rub it in, he'd point out KVB's recent resurgence in Dallas.

THE BANNED PLAYED ON

March 29, 2005 -- CAN we officially em balm the Knicks? Drive their Chevy to the levee since it's obvious they've run dry?

Sure, they were in the games late at Seattle and at Portland, but when you lose to the Blazers, a team that had mailed it in some three or four postal-rate hikes ago — having lost seven in a row and 13 of 14 prior to New York showing up on their schedule — it's certifiably Circus City at the Garden.

While not particularly prone to rubbing it in, I can't help but notice how many former Knicks who couldn't get a game in New York (due to the coach's decision, or the one who was coaching Lenny Wilkens) are prospering for playoff teams as Isiah Thomas' legions of forwards and guards are lottery bound.

One former Georgetown center didn't know when to quit, another is hanging around longer than Miami's relocated shuffleboard players, and then there's Dikembe Mutombo; mocking us mockers with his consistently effective play.

But last Tuesday's 15-rebound, eight-point, 25-minute effort, which ended the Heat's 12-game win streak, was the illest, though he also flaunts a 10 and two nines. Going into last night, the Rockets were 10-4 in the miserable month of March. During that time Mutombo averaged 7.2 rebounds, 3.8 points and 1.4 blocks.

Meanwhile, Othella Harrington is shooting 53.7 percent from the field. If he had enough qualifying attempts, that number would be fifth in the league, right behind teammate Eddy Curry. In each of the Bulls' five consecutive wins, Harrington has accounted for double-figure points (30-of-47 FG) and, on more than a few occasions, was Scott Skiles' go-to guy.

Which brings us Shandon Anderson. Aside from last Saturday night's seven-minute, one-assist cameo, the deported small forward has played a vital role in the Heat's success. In 54 games, he's tightened up Stan Van Gundy's perimeter defense and averaged 4.2 points, shooting 47.5 percent in nearly 18 minutes. In Miami's swaggering home victory last Friday against the Suns, he totaled 10 points on 5-of-7 from the field.

"I can't believe the Knicks are paying Shandon $6 million to contribute for us!" a Heat official exclaimed.

The really bad news: Anderson remains on the Knicks' payroll ($6.733M and $7.244M) for another two seasons.

The good news: John Amaechi ($1.2M) and Bruno Sundov (745G) come off the Knicks' cap July 1.

Contrary to a report in the Daily Ruse, Thomas made no move to acquire Antoine Walker the last couple of months prior to the Feb. 24 trade deadline. Nor should/will he waste time come summer trying to recruit the Celtics' reformed rising free agent.

Representative Mark Bartelstein doesn't even have to play his cards right to secure a four-year contract for his client (currently earning $14.625 million) in the affluent hood of $8M-to-9M per, above and beyond the Knicks' mid-level means.

Correspondingly, I'm tempted to disparage the reporter's latest "intelligence" regarding Thomas' purported interested in romancing Damon Stoudamire with that same $5M exception, except that Isiah and his pet Raptor still have a strong thing for each other after all these years.

Moreover, why wouldn't James Dolan's core-less franchise want to build on its feature as being the NBA's only member to exceed the salary cap on backcourt contracts alone? Allan Houston is on next season's books for $19.125M, Stephon Marbury $16.453M, Penny Hardaway $15.75M and Jamal Crawford $6.48M; Stoudamire would be an extra $5M.

Oh, I forgot, Thomas intends to trade the "coveted" closeout contracts of Hardaway, Maurice Taylor and Tim Thomas and thus salvage some future cap flexibility. Somehow I suspect the Knicks will be compelled to hold on to those precious possessions for one last season, thus clear some room without anyone's help.

In case you haven't already caught on to the above resource, stay tuned for additional "inside information" in the upcoming weeks and months:

Utilizing the mid-level and ($1.6M) veteran exceptions, as well as sign-and-trade offers, Thomas also plans to pursue Ray Allen, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Donyell Marshall, Michael Redd, Joe Johnson, Larry Hughes, Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Chris Duhon, Zaza Pachulia, Kwame Brown, Vladimir Radmanovic, Bobby Simmons, Marko Jaric, Samuel Dalembert, Kyle Korver, Cutino Mobley, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Udonis Haslem, Stromile Swift, Earl Watson, Bonzi Wells, Eddie Griffin, Latrell Sprewell, Raja Bell, Juan Dixon, Keith McLeod, Dan Gadzuric, Dan Dickau, Gerald Wallace, Reggie Evans, Jerome James, Flip Murray, Michael Ruffin and, of course, Eddie Robinson.

MavKikiNYC
03-31-2005, 10:52 AM
Snicker. March 2005, and NYK fans are already reduced to doing draft projections.


KNICKS' DRAFT PLAN MIGHT NOT NEED LOTTO WIN

By MARC BERMAN

March 31, 2005 -- With the Knicks all but assured of making their third lottery in four years, Isiah Thomas is honing in on centers and athletic shooting guards/swingmen in the June 28 draft.

Problem is, there is a dearth of centers available. Utah's 7-0 center Andrew Bogut is a virtual lock to be the No. 1 pick. After that, it appears the 19-year-old 7-3 Lithuanian center Martynas Andriuskevicius is the next best pivot.

Many clubs have questions about Andriuskevicius because his European team plays him so infrequently to reduce his stock hoping he doesn't leave. But the big center with his inside-out skills has piqued Thomas' interest, as he saw him play a few minutes in Spain when the Knicks president visited him this winter.

Workouts will be key for the Lithuanian this spring. Bogut is a sure thing. Scouts rave about his basketball IQ, ability to pass out of the post, score inside and out, and rebound. His defense?

"He's not a shot-blocker, but he takes up space," one GM said.

Tomorrow night at the Garden the Knicks meet the Nets in the lottery bowl. Unfortunately, Knicks and Nets executives likely will meet again May 24 in Secaucus for the NBA Draft lottery.

The Nets have not given up the playoff fight like the Knicks did during their West Coast calamity. The Knicks will enter their third lottery in four years, heading into last night with the NBA's eighth-worst record (29-41). If they remain the lottery's eighth seed, the Knicks will have a 2.9-percent chance at the No. 1 pick, Bogut, and a 10.3-percent chance of a top-three selection.

It's not a bad year to have two first-round picks, which the Knicks do. The late-first-rounder Isiah Thomas gained from the Feb. 24 trades might not be too far off in quality from a mid-lottery pick. Thomas owns Phoenix's pick, likely the 28th or 29th.

"It's very hard to pick the lottery guys this year," an Eastern Conference GM said.

As a result, the pick in the 20s could be as good as a mid-lottery player.

Thomas is off to an impressive start to his Knicks' drafting career. Without a first-rounder last June, he picked a first-round talent, swingman Trevor Ariza, at No. 43, the best value pick of the 2004 draft. Aside from Ariza's acrobatic high-flying ways, Thomas sees him as a key to improving the Knicks' inept defense, thinking he can be a Scottie Pippen-like defender.

It gives Knicks fans hope that this June 28 could be a big night.

"This draft, it's not sexy up top, but you're going to be able to find an impact player for next year late in the first round," an NBA GM said. "You couldn't say that the last five years."

So the Knicks should hold onto their late pick, not package it to move up. The 28th player could be a good player.

North Carolina freshman Marvin Williams, a 6-9 forward, is being viewed as the second pick if he comes out, despite coming off the Tar Heels bench this season. He was used as a power forward in college, but scouts envision him playing the role of a Tracy McGrady.

"He's athletic and long and can score on the drive," one GM said.

UConn's Rudy Gay, compared to Vince Carter, could be a top-five pick, but rumors have him staying in school one more year. Wake Forest guard Chris Paul is likely a top-three pick, and Illinois guard Deron Williams could be a high lottery choice, but the Knicks don't want a point guard.

In Thomas' visit to Spain, he also saw 6-10 power forward Fran Bazquez, who's lottery bound, and swingman Rudy Fernandez, who will need good workouts to make the lottery. The Knicks don't need a power forward, but Oklahoma State's Joey Grahan could give them toughness they lack.

MavKikiNYC
04-21-2005, 09:13 AM
Headline should read:
"NYKs CONCEDE THOMAS'S FAILURE AS GM:
UNVEIL PLANS TO INVEST $1BILLION IN FLAWED SHOOTING GUARDS"

STEPH: I DON'T NEED THE POINT

By BRIAN LEWIS

April 21, 2005 -- When the Knicks' dreadful lottery-bound season mercifully came to a close with last night's 113-105 win over Washington, Stephon Marbury was on the bench. He'd played every single game, through aches and pains, what his coach called sore knees and he insisted were bunions.

Marbury had sat out nearly the entire fourth quarter of their penultimate game in Chicago Tuesday, playing just 0.7 seconds. And while he played eight minutes in the fourth quarter last night, he was scoreless in the pivotal frame while Jamal Crawford brought the ball up and had 15 of his game-high 36 points.

The Knicks are conspicuously mum on their star guard's health. Physicals today should determine whether he'll need further action, i.e., surgery.

"Yeah, I had a bunion. I'm all right, man. I'm fine," Marbury said with a wry laugh. When asked if he knee was fine, he curtly said "Yes." When asked if he'd be honest if it wasn't, he said "No."

"I'm not worried about [his knee]," said coach Herb Williams, who said Marbury will likely play more off-guard next year whether his knee is sore or not. "If the medical staff was real concerned about it, they would've told me and held him out. But I don't think it's anything.""It's not just if his are a problem. He played and he played strong. With his ability, if you take him off the ball the focus is not on him all the team. Now he's coming from behind the defense catching the ball and he gets to play one on one instead of always looking at his man plus four others trying to guard him. It makes his life easier."

Marbury had 20 points and seven assists last night, finishing with averages of 21.6 and 8.3. He was third in the NBA in assists, but his defense had come under fire earlier in the season by GM Isiah Thomas.

With the club seemingly destined for the eighth pick, they could select a pure point guard. NBADraft.net has Wake Forest sophomore Chris Paul tabbed third, Illinois junior Deron Williams fourth and junior Raymond Felton of UNC 10th, but only Williams is considered a defensive stopper.

"Once we get the mixture of players that can do the mixture of things needed to win ballgames, I think my game will totally change. It'll go up," Marbury said. "Who played point guard when Clyde and Monroe played? It doesn't matter. Whoever brings the ball up brings the ball up. Jamal brought the ball up tonight in the second half. So is he the point guard? That's not even a story anymore."

rakesh.s
04-21-2005, 10:04 AM
The knicks may be the worst run franchise in all of sports.

I thought it was hilarious that the hawks beat the knicks the other day - The team with the lowest payroll lays the smackdown on the team with the highest payroll

MavKikiNYC
07-24-2005, 11:25 AM
Man, this protracted "seduction" is nauseating.

They should just screw already so Zeke can pay him.

BROWN BAGGED--
Signs Point Here

By FRED KERBER and STEVE SERBY


July 24, 2005 -- Larry Brown appears to be on the verge of becoming the next Knicks coach.

Imminent face-to-face meetings with money man James Dolan — possibly as early as today — and Knicks interim coach Herb Williams seem to be the last remaining obstacles in the hiring of the Hall of Fame coach.

Brown yesterday said he and his family were bowled over and charmed by Knicks president Isiah Thomas in Thursday's sit-down at their East Hampton home.

"It didn't hurt talking to him in any way," Brown said in a telephone interview yesterday. "It's important that I know he's in place. It's important I know the kind of relationship I have with him. Certainly, that makes the decision a little tougher to turn down if I was going turn it down."

One by one, Brown, 64, removed potential impediments to his accepting a multi-year offer that could approach $12 million annually.

* His two young children are now on board.

* He has no problem — rather, a "terrific relationship" — with Stephon Marbury.

* His health is not a major issue.

And so now he advances to the sit-downs with Garden Chairman/Cablevision CEO Dolan and Williams.

Brown revealed a tentative meeting was scheduled for today with Dolan, but it might be temporarily delayed. Seems Tiger Brown is a lot better golfer than he thought. He has been playing in a tournament on Long Island.

"I managed to move on and I'm supposed to play [today]," Brown said. "I'm just waiting to hear from Isiah and then I've got to tell him my dilemma and what we can do."

A Knicks spokesman said any meeting would be scheduled by Thomas, and it was not immediately known exactly when it would occur in the Hamptons.

But eventually they will meet and presumably the formal offer will be made; there was none presented Thursday. And then there is the matter of chatting with Williams.

"I want to visit with Herb, that's a real key. He's been a loyal trooper for them," insisted Brown, who was contacted by Thomas Tuesday night, hours after his divorce from the Pistons. "Whatever decision comes about, it impacts him. I just want to visit with him. I think the world of him. I told Isiah I wanted to do it rather quickly."

One meeting that doesn't seem necessary is with Marbury. While the two had a rocky Olympics relationship, Marbury has called Brown's hiring a "no-brainer." Brown insisted he has no issues with the point guard.

"I had a good experience with him," Brown said. "It didn't start off that way. I demanded a lot from him. I thought we had established a terrific relationship. I know Isiah cares about him. That's OK for me."

And it was Thomas who clearly dissolved one potential roadblock for Brown — the matter of family. Brown acknowledged Thomas was so persuasive during the East Hampton meeting, that when the Knicks exec left, wife Shelly was duly impressed.

"All she said was, 'Boy, he's good.' She likes Isiah a lot," Brown said. "He's one of her favorites, but we've got to sit down as a family."

Part of the family already gave thumbs up. Brown, the only man ever to coach both NBA and NCAA title teams, said son L.J. and daughter Madison "are on board. They love living here. They like Isiah a lot. As long as their dad's OK, they're OK."

Thomas came bearing gifts — he plied Brown's children with Knicks apparel — but he and Brown did not really talk basketball in their four-hour marathon Thursday.

"I think 98 percent of the conversation when Zeke met with Shelly and myself was our relationship," Brown said. "Shelly and I are trying to figure a lot of things out. It was how I was feeling and how I was handling what transpired in the last few weeks. We talked a little basketball. It was just more friends sitting down and re-establishing our relationship."

Brown stressed no offer was presented. But the lavish attention and courtship has left Brown "flattered" and sounding very much like a man willing to accept the chair once held by Red Holzman, one of his idols.

"I'm flattered. After you get let go, I don't think you have as much self-esteem as you had," Brown said. "I'm just trying to take a deep breath."

MavKikiNYC
08-04-2005, 09:47 AM
Wow.....this guy sounds....so......self-deluding.


Marbury Open to Change to Second Guard Position

By DAVID PICKER
Published: August 4, 2005

Last month, speculation about the status of Knicks point guard Stephon Marbury made its way through the N.B.A. The team wanted to rebuild with younger, more athletic players and Marbury, with his sore knees and nine years of mileage on the court, did not factor into the Knicks' up-tempo vision - or so the notion went.

Then the Knicks hired Larry Brown seven days ago to be their new head coach. As coach of the men's 2004 United States Olympic team in Athens, Brown had watched Marbury handle the point guard position without any great aplomb. Together, Brown and Marbury faced embarrassment as the American team slunk home with just a bronze medal.

But yesterday, Marbury made it clear that he never thought he would be traded when the rumors emerged last month and that he was not worried now, either, with Brown aboard.

Marbury suggested that people who bought into the trade talk just wanted to see him fail.

"They want me to go on a bad team so they can continue to drag me," said Marbury, who was presiding over his basketball camp at Chelsea Piers in Manhattan. "But it's cool, though. I'm still here, I ain't going nowhere, and I'm still going to play the same way I play."

The 28-year-old Marbury previously played for Minnesota, Phoenix and New Jersey before being traded to the Knicks two years ago. He has been to the playoffs only four times, has never gotten past the first round and has had to battle the impression that he does not make his teams better. He seems ready to keep battling.

"You know, they want me to get traded now 'cause things are getting good," he said. "Same thing that happened at every other team I was on. As soon as everybody started being players, then I get the boot. But I got somebody that's on my side now. And I think people, they can't deal with that, knowing that Isiah and I are close."

Isiah Thomas, the Knicks' president of basketball operations and Marbury's neighbor in Westchester County, has denied the Marbury trade rumors. Marbury is owed about $77 million over the next four years, so the Knicks may not be able to trade him even if they wanted to.

Marbury said that he speaks to Thomas every day and that he was even asked for his opinion of Brown before the hiring was made official.

As for his new head coach, Marbury disputed the idea that he had a rift with Brown at the Olympics, joking that they fought like cats and dogs.

"It was a great experience for me, going to the Olympics and playing under him," Marbury said. "And I'm happy that I did get a chance to play for him, because I know how his practices are. So I know pretty much everything about him."

Marbury said that when he first experienced Brown's coaching style, he thought Brown was "crazy." Brown, Marbury said, appeared to waste a player's energy and did not utilize the entire court during practice. He said that Brown was demanding and particular and always strived for perfection. But by the time the Olympics ended, Marbury said, he realized that Brown had taught him a lot about the game.

"Larry Brown, he's a great coach," Marbury said. "Hands down. He's just a proven winner. We have to adjust to him."

It is no secret that Marbury likes to shoot. When he was asked yesterday about the intriguing possibility of moving from point guard to shooting guard, his eyes lit up. He even said that Brown once told him that if he coached him, he would play him at shooting guard.

"It's going to be kind of scary because now I can shoot whenever I want to shoot," Marbury said of the potential shift.

Marbury recalled a game during the Olympics when Brown approached him before tip-off and said: "Son, you got to shoot. It's like you're out there passing the ball acting like you're scared to shoot."

The problem with Marbury at shooting guard is that the Knicks, for the moment, do not have anyone suited to replace him at point guard on a full-time basis. Jamal Crawford is seen as a part-time point guard at best, and more of a scorer than a passer, and the diminutive rookie Nate Robinson, who played point guard at the University of Washington, will most likely need time to adjust to the professional level.

Marbury said that he was prepared to do whatever the coach asked of him. "I can adjust," he said. "When I get on the basketball court, there's not too many things I can't do."

Thespiralgoeson
08-04-2005, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
"When I get on the basketball court, there's not too many things I can't do."

Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Baron Davis... Three guys with huge talents, but with even larger egos.

dirno2000
08-04-2005, 10:28 PM
The problem with Marburry is that nothing is ever his fault. That's why he's never been able to adjust his game to make the team better because he's perfect, why does he need to change anything?

The move to shooting guard should help though...if all he wants to do is shoot, let him play a position where that won't hurt the team.

MavKikiNYC
08-04-2005, 10:38 PM
Honestly, I can't think of a team in the league that Marbury could help turn the corner.

He can score a lot of points on several teams, but I can't see a situation anywhere in the league where he would make a good team better. Nowhere.

kg_veteran
08-04-2005, 11:22 PM
I liked his line about his detractors wanting him to be traded to "a bad team".

Newsflash: Stephon, the Knicks ARE a bad team.

dirno2000
08-04-2005, 11:25 PM
This is my favorite


You know, they want me to get traded now 'cause things are getting good," he said. "Same thing that happened at every other team I was on.Does he not remember that he forced his way out of Minn. and away from one of the top two PF's in the league because KG made too much money?

kg_veteran
08-04-2005, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
This is my favorite


You know, they want me to get traded now 'cause things are getting good," he said. "Same thing that happened at every other team I was on.Does he not remember that he forced his way out of Minn. and away from one of the top two PF's in the league because KG made too much money?

Apparently not.

That was pretty much the defining moment in his career. From that point forward, you knew he didn't want to be a winner.

MavKikiNYC
11-06-2005, 10:22 PM
Oh, joy....!

NYKs start the season 0-3, and are headed on a 6-game road trip. By the time they get back to the Garden two weeks from today, they could easily be looking at going 0-10 to start the season.

Larry Brown has the vets grumbling already, and he's hardly hiding his disdain for Jerome James. James looks absolutely ridiculous out on the court, and is averaging about a foul a minute through 3 games. Marbury looks to be about a year away from washed-up. Crawford is clawing for minutes. Curry....Curry....Curry.....he's still not in shape to play. Has shown flashes of productivity, but can't stay out of foul trouble long enough to get anything going on the court. Curry looks like he has a degree more potential than a player like Dampier, but....watching him you just wonder what it will be that holds him back.

Brown appears to be ready to throw his high-priced vets under the bus, and go with his rooks. Lotsa luck with that, Larry.

This is becoming 100 percent Isiah's mess. For all of his ballyhooed acquisitions--Marbury, Crawford, Curry, and now Brown, the NYKs are still winless, and could easily hit the lottery again.

Gotta think even Dolan will notice it's not working out.


Warriors 83, Knicks 81
In the Search for Themselves, the Knicks Are Clueless Again

By HOWARD BECK
Published: November 7, 2005

A glimpse of the Knicks' future was on display yesterday at Madison Square Garden, or perhaps it was a glimpse of the present. Defining with any certainty who the Knicks are or what they will be five minutes from now is futile, and not even Coach Larry Brown seems to have the answers.

Golden State Warriors Baron Davis makes a basket while guarded by Knicks Stephon Marbury in the fourth quarter Sunday at Madison Square Garden in New York.

Facing a third straight loss to open the season, the Knicks were nearly saved by their rookies. After being handed a modest lead and five minutes to kill against the Golden State Warriors, the Knicks' veterans converted it into an 83-81 loss.

The counterintuitive result of Brown's lineup change - with his most reliable players providing the least reliable play - was just one of many confounding developments as the Knicks fell to 0-3 under Brown.

Jerome James, foul-plagued and unproductive, was inserted into the starting lineup, with poor results. Eddy Curry, who dominated inside early, spent the final 15 minutes on the bench, even as the Knicks struggled to score. Jamal Crawford's role shrank a little further (16 minutes).

And after indicating last week that the rookies would have to wait their turn behind the veterans, Brown inverted the paradigm yesterday. Maurice Taylor was put on the inactive list, and Malik Rose played four minutes. The day belonged to the rookies Channing Frye (12 points, 6 rebounds), David Lee (8 points, 10 rebounds) and Nate Robinson (7 points), as well as the second-year pro Trevor Ariza (11 points, 6 rebounds).

The kids played well, but the Knicks nevertheless left without a victory and without any sense of where they are headed. Roles are changing from game to game, and even from quarter to quarter.

Asked if Brown had used his high-energy rookies to send a message to his veterans, Rose said, "I don't know what he's doing."

That sentiment fairly well summed up the feeling throughout the locker room, where blank stares and carefully worded answers were the order of the day.

"Part of me thinks Larry likes it, people not knowing what he wants or whatever," Rose said. "All I know is I go as hard as I can when I'm out there. Sometimes, things just don't go your way."

It could get worse quickly. The Knicks leave tomorrow for a six-game trip through the Western Conference.

"I'm trying to figure out who can play and who can help us," Brown said, praising the energy of his three rookies, as well as Ariza, Matt Barnes and Antonio Davis. "We've all got to do that. It's got to be infectious for everybody."

The Knicks trailed by 11 points after missing their first eight shots after halftime. Ariza began the comeback with a 20-foot jump shot. Barnes followed with a driving layup, Curry hit a short hook shot and Stephon Marbury scored 9 points over the next three and a half minutes.

Frye hit Lee for an alley-oop dunk to open the fourth quarter, and Lee followed with a layup that put the Knicks ahead, 69-67. They led by 5 points with 8 minutes 29 seconds to play and had a 74-71 edge with 5:46 remaining when Brown sent Rose, Barnes and Davis in to replace Frye, Robinson and Lee.

"I thought they were a little tired," Brown said, "and then I thought down the stretch, I don't want to put the rookies in a tough situation like that."

The Warriors responded with a 12-1 run, while the Knicks missed 12 straight shots. The final score was misleading; the Knicks trailed, 83-75, with 16.1 seconds left. It was that close only because the Warriors missed 17 of 32 free throws.

In the season opener on Wednesday, Frye did not play, and Lee was on the inactive list. By the third game, they were among the most critical players in Brown's rotation. Two days after glibly saying, "I have no clue who to play," Brown called his rotation "kind of an audition."

"I want to find out who's going to grind it out, defend and have a chance to guard people, and then we'll move on," he said.

Curry, the Knicks' signature acquisition of the off-season, scored 8 points against the Warriors' overmatched frontcourt in the first quarter, but finished with only 11 points in 16 minutes. Brown said Curry needed to be in better shape and stay out of foul trouble. (He had four fouls.)

Curry said he was limited by a strain in his left calf, but said, "I think I have enough to be successful out there."

Across the locker room, Crawford tried to hide his disappointment, staying mum when asked if he was disappointed by his brief playing time.

Despite their off-season moves, the Knicks' record is worse than it was after three games a year ago (1-2). They need a victory, but they may need predictability even more.

"I don't know what Coach is going to do," Marbury said of the unsettled rotation.

Asked if consistency would help, Marbury said: "Of course, consistency is always the best teacher. I guess Coach feels differently."

REBOUNDS

Maurice Taylor was placed on the inactive list Sunday to make room for David Lee. With Taylor joining Penny Hardaway and Jackie Butler, the Knicks have $24 million - about 20 percent of the payroll - on the inactive list.
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Thespiralgoeson
11-07-2005, 04:56 AM
I wonder if Larry's "dream job" is everything he wanted it to be...

MavKikiNYC
11-07-2005, 07:54 AM
HOTSHOT ROOKIES MAY THREATEN VETS

By GEORGE WILLIS

November 7, 2005 -- THERE are plenty of trouble spots Larry Brown must address with this new group of Knicks, now 0-3 after an 83-81 loss to Golden State yesterday afternoon at the Garden. Among the obvious are free-throw shooting, late-game execution and finding a dependable rotation, which Brown said could take up to 20 games.

Those issues are expected with a team of new faces, egos and personalities, working for a demanding coach. But another brushfire Brown would be wise to monitor is the potential for divisiveness in his locker room, where the frustration of losing could pit a group of insecure veterans against a brash crop of rookies who were the darlings of the Garden yesterday.

Yes, everyone said all the right things after the Knicks let a 74-71 lead with 6:21 left turn into another late-game meltdown. But the manner in which the Knicks fell behind early, fought back to take the lead and blew it in the end exposed the potential for internal problems, something Brown likely will address as the Knicks embark on a six-game western swing.

The best moments of the Knicks' season thus far came yesterday courtesy of the young legs. A lineup consisting of rookies Channing Frye, David Lee and Nate Robinson, along with second-year player Trevor Ariza, carried the Knicks from an 11-point deficit midway through the third-quarter into a 74-71 lead when Robinson zipped through the lane and converted a driving lay-up with 6:21 remaining.

The Garden was at full throat for the first time this season. The crowd of 16,221 caught a glimpse of the future and was excited by what it saw.

Lee, the second of two first-round picks, dressed for his first game as a Knick and got most of his 10 rebounds during that stretch. He teamed with Frye (12 points, 6 rebounds) and the hustling Robinson (7 points) to energize a team that had labored with poor-shooting and porous defense for much of three quarters.

"It's so obvious with the energy they bring," Brown said of the youngsters. "We've all got to do that. It's got to be infectious for everybody."

Yet, with 5:46 to go Brown pulled Ariza (11 points), Robinson and Lee and sent in Malik Rose, Antonio Davis, and Matt Barnes to join Stephon Marbury and Jamal Crawford. Quentin Richardson soon after replaced Crawford. They managed to score just one point over the next 5:30, allowing the Warriors to pull off a 12-1 run.

Brown didn't blame his vets for the loss but he didn't hesitate to praise his youngsters, saying, "I wanted to play the rookies all the time. They've earned it."

In the locker room, the vets couldn't have been happy with the rookies getting the spotlight. Instead of leading this team, they're viewed as dragging it down. Richardson (4 points) is shooting just 34.5 percent from the field, while Marbury has made just 15 of 28 free throws. Eddie Curry was benched for the entire fourth quarter, and Rose didn't play until he was summoned off the bench with 5:16 to go.

"Part of me thinks Larry likes people not knowing what he's thinking," Rose said.

Considering the Knicks played their best basketball yesterday with the bulk of their payroll on the bench, egos had to be bruised. But they have only themselves to blame. Crawford needs to improve his defense, Jerome James can't stay out of foul trouble, Richardson can't shoot and Curry isn't in shape.

"We're all trying to learn and find out what Coach wants from us," Rose said. "It's going to take some time. We just have to keep working."

Maybe the adversity the vets are facing is good for motivation. The danger is it can be divisive if the Knicks don't starting winning.

Hitman
11-07-2005, 12:14 PM
I really like David Lee. He is one of the few bright spots on this lottery bound team.

MavKikiNYC
11-07-2005, 01:01 PM
He's fun to watch, in a Rodman kind of way. Not that he personally resembles Rodman in any way, just that you sense that there's a young, athletic, raw player waiting to be turned into something. At this point, Lee probably has better basketball skills than Rodman (though that's not necessarily saying much).

I also like that Nate Robinson went after Jerome James in practice the other day, and then had to be held back from going after him once they got separated. Got a little Calvin Murphy syndrome going on, except he can't shoot.

Their rookies are fun to watch. If they'd just say, "Look, we're tearing it down. Gonna play rookies. Come see us now, or come see us in a couple of years when we're good." I'd be fine with that. Wouldn't kill them to cut ticket prices a little either.

But their selling themselves as playoff contenders is like that guy selling Rolexes out of his trunk on the street---not credible.

MavKikiNYC
11-11-2005, 07:18 AM
Stephon Marbury: Failure.
Penny Hardaway: Failure.
Tim Thomas: Failure.
Jerome James: Failure.
Jamal Crawford: Not looking good.
Quentin Richardson: Not looking good.
Eddy Curry: Not looking good.

Don Chaney: Failure.
Lenny Wilkens: Failure.
Larry Brown: Not looking good.

At some point, you have to look at the GM responsible for these moves and conclude: FAILURE.


A Work in Progress, but Knicks Stay Upbeat

By HOWARD BECK
Published: November 11, 2005

SAN FRANCISCO, Nov. 10 - Four games into the Larry Brown era, there is a gaping hole where the Knicks' victory total should be and a uniform look of bewilderment spreading from the franchise player all the way down to the 15th man.

Stephon Marbury concedes he is struggling to adapt to Brown's motion offense, and Brown admits that his lineup is inherently flawed. Square players are being squeezed into triangular holes - and round players are being squeezed out of the rotation entirely. The results are predictably painful: four straight losses, to Boston, Washington, Golden State and Portland. With five more games to play on this six-game trip, matters could grow worse quickly.
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Yet if failure is supposed to beget turmoil, the Knicks will choose to disappoint on that front as well.

They held a brief, spirited practice Thursday morning at the University of San Francisco, and the mood inside the gym was generally as bright as the sky on a mild fall day in the Bay Area.

"It's a good day to be living," forward Maurice Taylor said. "It's not a good day for basketball. There's a difference."

Everyone associated with the franchise expects that, eventually, the days will be good for basketball, too. It is all a matter of when. On Friday night at Golden State, the players will again try to give Brown his first Knicks' victory.

By all accounts, they are striving to make that happen. Despite some mild rumblings about playing time and role changes, the Knicks remain unified and hopeful.

"We need to stay together," Antonio Davis said. "A win always helps, but we have to stick together, first and foremost. I just hope that these losses are bringing us closer together and not separating us.

"The thing that I like so far is that guys care," Davis added. "Nobody's sitting and being complacent with what's going on. I think everybody's fighting, trying to make it better. So that's a good sign."

There were fingers pointed after Wednesday's loss in Portland, but in each case, the speaker was pointing at himself.

Brown blamed himself six times during a five-minute postgame chat with reporters. A few minutes later, Marbury said he was struggling to adapt to Brown's system. On Thursday, Brown mentioned four more times that the onus was on him.

"This is a work in progress, and I've got to do a much better job," he said. "It's not their fault."

The Knicks are shooting just .393 from the field (.237 from 3-point range) and are averaging four more turnovers a game (20.8) than assists (16.3).

The offense has sputtered at inopportune times, leaving the Knicks vulnerable to the same sort of late-game collapses that made them 33-49 last season.

After the Portland loss, Marbury blamed himself for "some stupid turnovers," including an ill-advised cross-court pass in the second half.

"I think it's just from trying to learn the sets, do everything the right way and try to play a certain style," he said. "The style is good. I think when you get into your sets all the time, you'll always get a good shot."

But, he added, adapting to Brown's system "is hard, because it's a new style for me, as far as the way how I play. But it's not something that I'm asked to do that I can't do. It's just it's something new."

But everyone agreed that the Knicks lost to the Trail Blazers primarily because of poor defense and a lack of rebounding in the second half. Brown also noted that when the Knicks faced adversity, they tended to turn to individual efforts and ignore the offense entirely.

The composition of the Knicks roster also remains a problem. While Brown has stopped short of saying that he needs new players, he is clearly struggling to find the right roles for the ones he has.

"We're playing a small forward out of position, we're playing a two guard out of position," he said, referring to Quentin Richardson and Jamal Crawford, "and I'm not sure just exactly how to use Steph with that kind of three man and two man. There's a lot of guys that are playing that are really trying to get themselves in shape."

Having promoted the struggling Crawford to the starting unit, Brown said: "Who do you have come in as your backup point? And who do you bring in as a real starting small forward? It's something I'm just trying to figure out."

Whether he was just thinking out loud or sending a plea for help to the team president, Isiah Thomas, only Brown knows. For now, he will continue to tinker with the pieces he has. He strongly hinted that Penny Hardaway, stashed on the inactive list since opening night, could be activated for Friday's game. Hardaway could serve as the primary backup point guard.

Despite the 0-4 start, Marbury said the Knicks were better off than last season.

"It don't feel like last year because we know our capabilities on the basketball court and what we have to do," he said. "Last year, we didn't know how we were going to come play. Whereas this year, we know what we have to do, we're just not doing it."

REBOUNDS

Jerome James reinjured his left hamstring in practice Thursday and is probably headed for the inactive list. He could remain there for some time. James missed most of training camp with the same injury, and his weight and stamina have been constant issues. Larry Brown dropped James from the rotation Wednesday night.

EricaLubarsky
11-11-2005, 01:07 PM
anyone want to guess when the Knicks will win one?
@ warriors
@ kings
@jazz
@Lakers
@nuggets
blazers
bobcats
sixers
heat
bulls

My guess is the blazers on nov 20th. which would put them at 0-9 to begin the season.

dirno2000
11-11-2005, 01:38 PM
They'll win one of the next two.

MavKikiNYC
11-11-2005, 05:16 PM
Marbury and trade rumors....


Developing.

BROWN'S DOWN ON HOW THOMAS HAS BUILT TEAM

By MARC BERMAN

SAN FRANCISCO — Winless Larry Brown, in his most honest assessment of the Knicks' makeup yesterday, described a poorly constructed roster with multiple players playing out of position.

Knicks president Isiah Thomas is not present on this potential six-game West Coast calamity, but Brown's harsh views are nothing Brown hasn't told Thomas. It's still an indictment on Thomas' job performance.

The Knicks are one of three teams without a victory as they stumble into The Arena in Oakland against Golden State tonight at an embarrassing 0-4. The last time the Knicks began 0-5 was 1987-88. Thomas wasn't commenting yesterday on the Knicks' awful start.

"I talk to Isiah every day," Brown said after yesterday's practice at the University of San Francisco. "I told him from the beginning, this is a real work in progress.

"We're playing a small forward (Quentin Richardson) out of position. We're playing a 2-guard (Jamal Crawford) out of position. And I'm not sure exactly how to play Stephon (Marbury) with that kind of 3-man and 2-man. And then who do you come in as your backup point guard? And who do you bring in as a real starting small forward? It's something I'm trying to figure out."

Brown's remarks detailing the Knicks' flawed roster could be his way of pressuring Thomas into making a trade. However, deals won't pick up until Dec. 15, when free-agent contracts become tradable.

Brown tempered his comments by repeatedly saying a half-dozen times he has to do a better job coaching. But Brown still came down hard.

Journeyman Matt Barnes started at small forward for the first three losses before being deactivated. Crawford started at shooting guard in Wednesday's 95-83 loss in Portland, with Richardson sliding to small forward. Richardson has been brutal from the field (30.6 percent). Brown doesn't trust 5-9 rookie Nate Robinson as a point guard because he's a high-mistake player and not a playmaker. Brown sees Robinson as a 2.

For the short term, Brown would surely reverse last June's trade, returning Kurt Thomas to New York and sending Richardson and Robinson back to Phoenix. In Isiah's defense, that trade was made for the future, but Brown still is campaigning to bring in a veteran backup point guard.

Meanwhile, Marbury has failed to step up as their floor general so far. During Wednesday's second-half meltdown when the Knicks were pounded, 56-34, Marbury was part of the problem, not the solution, committing five turnovers. Marbury also doesn't make enough hustle plays in crunch time, his zero rebounds in 36 minutes Wednesday appalling.

Brown has said a point guard is the extension of a coach and needs to settle the offense during stressful moments. Brown knows Marbury hasn't done that. But Brown would not criticize him yesterday because he believes he's been too preoccupied learning the system.

"I don't think right now what I'm asking him to do, he's completely comfortable and familiar with," Brown said. "Until I feel he can't do it, I'm going to continue to work on him. He's never showed me he won't try."

An unusually candid Marbury said learning Brown's system is akin to learning how to ride a bike. "Once it starts to click and everyone goes on the same page, it becomes like riding a bike," Marbury said. "Right now we're still trying to learn to ride the bike and we're falling off."

"We talk about running plays, slowing down," Brown said. "We don't seem to get in that mode. Whenever teams make runs at us, we kind of become individuals on offense and lack mental toughness on defense. So there's no organization."

Are you listening, Isiah?

Hitman
11-12-2005, 05:59 AM
Knicks now 0-5.

David Lee get a D-N-P last night.

EricaLubarsky
11-12-2005, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
They'll win one of the next two.

In other words, they will win the game against the Kings on the road.

dirno2000
11-12-2005, 06:40 PM
yes

Drbio
11-12-2005, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
yes

If the question was, "Do the Knicks suck balls again this year?" then I agree. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Thespiralgoeson
11-12-2005, 11:53 PM
I'm sorry, but Isiah Thomas just flatout sucks... He was a phenominal player, but as both a GM and as a coach, he's dreadful... Larry Bird took the Pacers to the Finals as their coach, and this was before they had Jermaine. Isiah takes over, and they never get out of the first round; as soon as Bird replaces him with Rick Carlisle, the Pacers win 62 games and are title contenders... Then Zeke takes over in a crappy situation in New York, and makes it even crappier... He just plain sucks.

MavKikiNYC
11-13-2005, 09:15 AM
They actually have better individual players this year, I think. But they don't have the right kind of players for Larry Brown.

I still have a sense that Thomas will go and Brown will move to GM.

Hitman
11-13-2005, 09:40 AM
If the Knicks don't make the playoffs this year, how could Isiah be brought back? Two and a half years, still in the lottery

and in GREATER salary cap hell than you were in before.

MavKikiNYC
11-13-2005, 10:07 AM
You look at them, and realize they could easily go 0-10 to start the season.

Then if somehow they did turn things around and managed to play .500 ball for the rest of the season (maybe a stretch), they'd still be a 36-win team.

I don't even think Dolan is paying attention though. Didn't he have surgery for cancer a couple of weeks ago?

dirno2000
11-13-2005, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
They actually have better individual players this year, I think. But they don't have the right kind of players for Larry Brown.

I still have a sense that Thomas will go and Brown will move to GM.I don't think that would be a good thing. Brown is famous for being overly impulsive and wanting to trade everyone on the team at one time or another. He needs a GM to save him from himself weather it's Zeke or someone else.

MavKikiNYC
11-13-2005, 03:09 PM
I don't think that would be a good thing. Brown is famous for being overly impulsive and wanting to trade everyone on the team at one time or another. He needs a GM to save him from himself weather it's Zeke or someone else.

Then again, that's Zeke's problem too, isn't it.

I just think that Thomas's days are numbered, and that Brown may not be up to the day-to-day grind of coaching.

If a change has to be made in the next couple of years, it wouldn't surprise me to see Brown move to GM--both because of the wealth of information he has about the league, and because of the amount the NYKs have invested in him. True, he might not do better than Thomas. Doubt he'd do worse.

dirno2000
11-13-2005, 07:33 PM
I thought you were saying that LB would be the coach/GM...IMO that would be a recipe for disaster. Yes, when Isiah's act wears thin Brown would be the logical replacement. He may be a little more thoughtful when he moves from the bench to the luxury box.

MavKikiNYC
11-22-2005, 06:23 AM
Knicks-Rangers Bid Rejected

By THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: November 22, 2005

The Cablevision Systems Corporation, the biggest cable television provider in the New York metropolitan area, confirmed yesterday that it had rejected a $700 million offer from an investment group to buy the Knicks and the Rangers.

The group also offered to buy Madison Square Garden, where the teams play, though no price was set.

Cablevision received the bid from a group led by Russell Glass, a protégé of the financier Carl C. Icahn, in a letter that was dated Oct. 18. Cablevision said it rejected the offer as inadequate.

"We have no plans to sell the Knicks and Rangers and the inquiry did not look credible to us," said Kim Kerns, a Cablevision spokeswoman.

There were no indications that Cablevision had spoken directly to the Glass group about its offer.

The letter from the Glass group reached the company while it was considering a proposal from the Dolan family, which controls Cablevision, to take the company private. As part of that proposal, Cablevision would have spun off its entertainment holdings, sports teams and the Garden.

On Oct. 25, the Dolan family withdrew its offer to buy all outstanding shares in the company and ended any immediate possibility of spinning off the sports teams. The Dolan family also recommended that the company pay a one-time $3 billion special dividend to shareholders.

James L. Dolan, Cablevision's chief executive, is also the chairman of Madison Square Garden.

Seth Abraham, former president of Madison Square Garden and Radio City Entertainment, said: "In the four years I was at the Garden, Jim would receive about two to three offers a year from some very serious people. Jim would never take a meeting."