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MavKikiNYC
02-05-2004, 07:22 PM
I switch on the Lakers v. Sixers game, just in time to see Joe Crawford eject Gary Payton with two technical fouls stemming from a lane violation on a FT.

Now this game is pretty suspect to begin with. For one thing, there are those Sixers throw-back uniforms, which is exactly what they should do, throw them back. That big, wide, red band around the mid-section makes me hope like everything that Oliver Miller never plays in a Sixer uniform.

The Sixers are not an entertaining team to watch unless you fancy seeing Allen Iverson do an Antoine Walker impersonation, jacking up 30 shots. The difference is Iverson sometimes looks good doing it. But beyond Iverson, the Sixers have very little spectator appeal.

And the Lakers...well, they're pretty injured, and those uniforms of theirs are pretty tacky too. They've only got Payton and O'Neal toninight for start power; Kobe's off somewhere else, doing something, and Malone is still injured.

But what the f*ck makes Joey Crawford think that we, the viewers, not to mention the paying spectators, want to see the star power of this game reduced by 33.33% just because Gary Payton stepped inside the 3-point arc on a FT by Iverson. Crawford called a RIDICULOUS violation (which even ref-smarmy Doug Collins observed was unusual). Payton laughed at Crawford. Crawford called a technical foul on Payton. Payton cursed at Crawford. Crawford pitched Payton. Bam--star power of a very weakly attractive game is lowered.

My stand: I'm not watching any more regular season games officiated by Joe Crawford. It's a waste of time. His bald, pink head is not what I tune in to see, but he always manages to make himself very central to the game, getting plenty of camera time for his pathetic, attention-starved self. I wish that enough viewers would take this course of action such that networks like TNT would take note of decreased ratings, and maybe mention something to the NBA such that Crawford would not be assigned any televised games of significance.

It's a long shot, I know. But someone has to take the first step. Please join me in taking this pledge:

"I do solemnly affirm and avow that I will not watch anymore televised NBA games which in which Joe Crawford officiates, because he is a fuzz-headed piece of scrotal grundge. May the television ratings suffer, may the advertisers withdraw their $$$. May King David take note."


Please print this boycott pledge out, sign it, and send it in to the NBA offices. I'll post the address here in a follow-up.

dude1394
02-05-2004, 07:32 PM
Gary Payton should shut up and he wouldn't be thrown.

OutletPass
02-05-2004, 07:40 PM
I was watching the game too, kiki...(I'm not exactly sure why, though)...and thought the same things that you did. BUT....

At the same time, GP knew exactly who he was dealing with....he really needed to just shut his mouth after the first T and go on with it.

I, for one, am damn sick and tired of watching players (Mavs included) just go on and on over every call the officials make. To me, it's just gotten way of of control. C'mon guys...the officials are going to miss some calls...that's just a fact of life. But when you argue over EVERY foul call, it's like the boy who cried Wolf.

MavKikiNYC
02-05-2004, 07:50 PM
Payton is a hothead, but what he did tonight didn't merit ejection, and probably didn't even a violation call in the first place. Looked to me like Crawford made up his mind to go after Payton, and I've definitely seen him do that to players and coaches before. If it were any official besides Joe Crawford (or Steve Javie), I don't say a word.

But if it were any official besides Joe Crawford, chances are that he wouldn't have made a stupid violation call, that had NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on the play, and take one of the best players in the league out of the game.

Crawford is out of control, and has been for a few years now. Think how many times you've seen Crawford assess a technical foul that nearly no other official would, and/or eject a player or coach in an important game, and/or in such a way as to call attention to himself? What about that assinine stunt of buying beer for fans in courtside seats a couple of weeks ago? Think how many times you've heard a commentator remark as Steve Kerr did tonight, that: "You just don't do that to Joe Crawford!"

It's obvious that Crawford has built a reputation for himself (not least of all in his own mind) that he feels he has to live up to. But the reality is that I would never pay money to see him officiate a game, nor even turn on a television to watch him "perform".

dude1394
02-05-2004, 07:54 PM
Crawford is a "hot-head" sort of like payton. But tough, nba players should shut up and play.

OutletPass
02-05-2004, 08:06 PM
Kiki, I agree with you about Crawford and Javie...can't stand either one of them.

What really strikes me as odd is that GP was going off on another official when Crawford hit him...Hell, the other official didn't even call it and he was the one getting it from Gary. That is just weird.

Chiwas
02-05-2004, 08:17 PM
I can't decide who I dislike more, if Crawford or Payton.

Anyway, Payton makes well his work at least.

Bayliss
02-05-2004, 08:23 PM
I can't stand Javie and Crawford. Both think they are the "show" and the players are their to pay them homage. It may sound big brotherish, but just about every time Dallas has an important game against a top seed.... who officiates? Crawford or Javie. Coincidence?

As for the players... they should shut up and play. If you act like a baby then you shouldn't be surprised if you are treated like one. And NBA players should understand that.

OzMavs
02-05-2004, 08:42 PM
sorry, wrong thread.

Max Power
02-05-2004, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by: OutletPass
I was watching the game too, kiki...(I'm not exactly sure why, though)...and thought the same things that you did. BUT....

At the same time, GP knew exactly who he was dealing with....he really needed to just shut his mouth after the first T and go on with it.

I, for one, am damn sick and tired of watching players (Mavs included) just go on and on over every call the officials make. To me, it's just gotten way of of control. C'mon guys...the officials are going to miss some calls...that's just a fact of life. But when you argue over EVERY foul call, it's like the boy who cried Wolf.

I wonder why the refs have such thin skins. Every player AND coach bitches about EVERY play in the NFL and the refs just let it go. The refs should be the adults and ignore the whining of the kids.

Usually Lurkin
02-06-2004, 07:43 AM
the lakers lost, so I don't have a problem with any of it.


just kidding. GP should just shut up and play. But I don't want the refs keeping players in the game or tossing them based on a player's star power (I don't think that's what you were trying to say, MavKiki). Most of all, I don't want the refs to hold any star power themselves.

MavKikiNYC
02-06-2004, 08:13 AM
...GP should just shut up and play. But I don't want the refs keeping players in the game or tossing them based on a player's star power (I don't think that's what you were trying to say, MavKiki). Most of all, I don't want the refs to hold any star power themselves.

No, UL, that's not what I was saying. I don't want individual calls to be based on relative perceived star quality of the players involved.

Yes, GP (and Dirk, and Antoine) should just shut up and play, but vis a vis the officals, since the officials have more authority in the game, they, the officials, should have more responsibility in managing these types of situations. Joe Crawford should NEVER be an instigator, and all too often, he is.

The NBA should be able to see that it has a problem when the likes of Joe Crawford and Steve Javie (not to mention incompetents like Luís Grillo, but that's another issue) are arguably the deciding factors in the outcomes of games. If Jackson or Nellie or whichever NBA coach played their scrubs to make a statement, the NBA would fine the coach and the team for damaging the integrity of the game (cf Houston Rockets, Bill Fitch, late-season games circa 1983-4).

There's not that much difference in the result if Joe Crawford's ego, thin skin, quick 'T'rigger finger and whistle dilute the quality of play for similiarly non-legitimate, non-basketball related reasons.

dirt_dobber
02-06-2004, 08:30 AM
Great point OP.

I am serious here. I wonder if Las Vegas oddsmakers take
into account who is officiating a game? It absolutely has
a bearing. example: physical team verses a finese team and the
propensity or history of the way a particular official calls
a game; ie ticky-tack fouls, calls a lot of technicals, favors
the vet verses a team full of rookies, big time tv game or not
and on and on.

.

DNNF
02-06-2004, 08:39 AM
I watched the game last night, and the tech was uncall for. I never like Payton, but Crawford just being an asshole. He took over a bunch of games in the playoff last year too. Too damn quick with the T. I would hate to see him officating any of the mavs games come playoff time.

OutletPass
02-06-2004, 09:10 AM
Tell you what Dirt Dobber....I don't know when the referees assignments rae made, but you can BET that it's taken into account. I saw a site just the other day...I thinks it's called www.82games.com . It has the most involved statistical breakdowns that you've ever seen...it can tell you exactly how the Mavs (as an example) do against great free throw shooting teams, the worst rebounding teams....or whateber you'd like. It can breakdown or % of jumpers compared to short shots, dunks and tip ins....What I'm getting at here is that it's very intricate, complex and involved.

And you can bet that the oddsmakes have the info and much more plus all of the info on referees and all of their tendencies on the same intricate, complex and involved basis. With the money at stake, tey'd be negligent not to. I'm equally sure that they have a complete history of the players with certain referees...and so on. Now how they factor all this in, I wouldn't pretend to know...but as they say "knowledge is power" .

Dooby
02-06-2004, 10:00 AM
I posted a link a couple of years ago to a site that provides statistical information on NBA refs. How often the home team wins; ref against the spread; number of fouls called a game; number of freethrows shot in a game.

Yes, it is a a gambling site.

Here's the link. (http://www.covers.com/data/nba/referees.html)

LRB
02-06-2004, 10:30 AM
Yes, GP (and Dirk, and Antoine) should just shut up and play, but vis a vis the officals, since the officials have more authority in the game, they, the officials, should have more responsibility in managing these types of situations. Joe Crawford should NEVER be an instigator, and all too often, he is.


I totally agree Kiki. I'm all for players shutting up and playing, but if they don't that doesn't give refs the right to instigate and bait them. People are paying good money to see the best basketball players on earth play. This should be about the fans, not about the refs ego. Techs should only be assessed as a last resort when other methods have failed or when players or coaches do something physical that could potentially hurt someone or they become so disruptive as to diminish the entertainment and integrity of the game.

NFL refs take much more as do baseball umpires. Of all professional sports it seems that NBA refs are head and shoulders above the others in ego and making themselves the center of attention.

And I firmly believe that Javie and Crawford are the worst of the worst and should be fired immediately as message to all refs. The refs definitely diminish the entertainment value of the NBA with their current egotistical antics.

kingrex
02-06-2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin
the lakers lost, so I don't have a problem with any of it.


just kidding. GP should just shut up and play. But I don't want the refs keeping players in the game or tossing them based on a player's star power (I don't think that's what you were trying to say, MavKiki). Most of all, I don't want the refs to hold any star power themselves.

Lurkin already made my point, but I wanted to highlight it again and add that as a basketball fan, I'm there to watch the stars, but not watch the stars break the rules. I believe that Jordan should be called for traveling. I believe Shaq should be called for charging. Just becasue they are stars, they shouldn't be subject to a different set of rules. Rather the players should adjust their game to follow the rules. Morever, referees are there for one reason to officiate the game. Not to be the difference makers, but if players continue to scream at officials and verbally abuse them, then an official should have the ability to give them a technical foul.

Now, regarding this specific case, maybe Crawford should have allowed the other official to handle it. Payton wasn't griping to Crawford directly, and so Crawford should have shown greather patience.

For the record, I'm not a fan of Crawford either, but not enough to boycott his games. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Chiwas
02-06-2004, 06:47 PM
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif Sorry, I couldn't resist reading the head of the following article:

NBA referees never stop trying to improve their games

By Mike Monroe
San Antonio Express-News

Web Posted : 02/05/2004 12:00 AM

DENVER It is 10:38 on a Sunday night and the Cadillac rental car carrying referees Bob Delaney, Derrick Stafford and Anthony Jordan from the Pepsi Center, in downtown Denver, to the Airport Marriott, some 15 miles to the east, is slowing to a crawl.

Fog, as thick as pea soup, has descended on Interstate 70 and visibility is down to 30 or 40 feet. It's a relatively rare meteorological condition in Denver, but for the moment, the Cadillac may as well be plodding through a Scottish moor.

"If your equipment is already here you'll be OK," Delaney, behind the wheel, says to Stafford and Jordan. "If not, well, you're just not going to make it out of here tonight."

The crew that officiated that night's game between the Denver Nuggets and the Miami Heat has reached the end of a four-game swing that took them from Seattle to Portland to Sacramento and, finally, to Denver. Stafford and Jordan both have a couple of days off coming and they're booked on a "red-eye" flight from Denver to Atlanta that night, hoping to squeeze in a few more precious hours with their families.

Stafford's 10-year-old son, Dillon, has a basketball game Monday afternoon that he has promised he won't miss, and the red-eye will get the referee home in time, despite the two hours he will lose going from the Mountain time zone to Eastern time. Stafford's 13-year-old son, Desmond, is counting on Dad to take him and his middle-school baseball teammates to the batting cage the same day.

Stafford says nothing as the fog thickens, but the worried look on his face speaks volumes.

The weather conditions are beyond his control, but explain that to a 10-year-old who rarely gets the chance to play a game in front of the dad he adores.

Yes, hard as it is for NBA coaches, players and fans to comprehend, referees are people, too i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif. They even have families who love them, no matter how much coaches complain about their calls. i/expressions/rolleye.gif

Complete article, long (http://news.mysanantonio.com/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=200&xlc=1124055)

dirno2000
02-08-2004, 02:47 PM
From Vescey's column
-----------------------------------

IN Game 2 of last May's Spurs-Mavericks playoff series, referee Joey Crawford ejected Don Nelson late in the first quarter because he refused to obey a sit command. The next day, divulge sources, the exceptionally competent and remarkably crazed veteran ref was summoned from San Antonio to David Stern's New York office; the commissioner (surrounded by his sacrosanct staff Russ Granik, Stu Jackson and Ed Rush) ungraciously greeted him.

No fake effort to make small talk occurred. No token socializing was vaguely attempted. Crawford was on the grill the moment the Dean of Discipline entered the league's padded room.

"Who the bleep do you think you are?" roared Stern. "What makes you think you're bigger than the game? I'll have your bleepin' bleep fired."



Crawford had every reason to believe his career was about to be cancelled due to his "uncalled for" conduct. He told colleagues he was scared so silly he nearly had an accident. A needless waste of emotion, as it turned out. An extensive tongue-lashing was as bad as it got.

There was no firing, no suspension, no fine, not even a public flogging. Just a Stern reprimand never to do it again.

For the most part, Crawford has been on his best behavior since that epic episode. Though he did suffer a minor relapse in a recent game when the league caught him reaching into his pocket during a time out and handing a spectator money to buy a beer.

Actually, that's nothing unusual. At least as far as Crawford is concerned. If he deems a slur especially creative or particularly inhuman he'll spring for a brew or two. Been doin' it for years. Only this time Crawford was wired. I doubt he forgot; his Earl Strom-like routine may be too ingrained in his peculiar personality to ever change; at any rate, sources say he was fined trying to buy the affections of that customer.

Clearly, modifying his behavior doesn't come easy. This past Thursday evening, when the Kobe/Mailman-less Lakers got vanquished in Philly, Crawford tossed Gary Payton nine minutes into the first quarter.

Why? Because Little Noxious was complaining to Bennie Adams about a petty call Crawford had just made; Payton had one foot inside the 3-point line while a free throw was being attempted. Crawford said he felt obligated to stick up for his partner. "We're a team," he was heard explaining to Phil Jackson. Once again Crawford was wired.

When Payton got the startling news he'd been T-ed up, Crawford was on the opposite side of the court. Ask anybody, there's nothing more frustrating than being assessed an out-of-position technical foul. Payton who had been expelled from his previous game with three seconds left, didn't earn the first one. He definitely earned the second.

At the same time, Crawford may have earned himself another scary day trip to the league office.

scorched03
02-08-2004, 04:40 PM
him and javey, the guy that tossed payton for "throwing" the ball at his feet the last time Mavs/Lakers game, suck.

best officials (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/survey/2002-04-19-fan-insider-results.htm)
1st column: fans
2nd: NBA insiders
1. None 48% 1. Dick Bavetta 40%
2. Steve Javie 7% 2. Steve Javie 15%
3. Joey Crawford 5% 3. Joey Crawford 14%
4. Other 40% 4. Other 31%

Max Power
02-08-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by: scorched03
crawford fined for cuban comments (http://www.sportsgoons.com/Vol1_Iss8/ref_cuban.htm) this is assuming on crawford got hit for 200K. holy crap how much does a nba ref make?!?

It looks like this is a joke website.

scorched03
02-08-2004, 09:49 PM
yep shoudla known it was a joke website with the homepage that says coach BELICHICK gets laid as a title.

WayOutWest
02-09-2004, 09:49 AM
Dick Bevetta is also known as Knick Bevetta. He's been involved in more controversial calls in critical games involving a LARGE market team than all the other officials combined.

MavKikiNYC
02-09-2004, 12:59 PM
Dirno, thanks for the Vescey column--interesting stuff. Do you have a link to it?

I think the NBA could save itself some grief if they'd try a little harder to publicize their reform efforts with recalcitrant refs like Joey "Sticks in My" Craw-ford.

ddh33
02-09-2004, 01:08 PM
I don't think I missed it in this thread, but I'm sure everybody heard about the Kirk Hinrich story. I can't remember the refs name, but he T'd up Kirk last time he reffed a Bulls game for no reason. Hinrich told Skiles, who told Paxson, who reported it to the league. Next time that ref called a Bulls game, he called Hinrich over and told him he knew that he had told his GM on the ref. The Bulls received several Techs in the game - including getting Chandler tossed. I'm sure someone has more info on it, but I think that guy should be fired.

I know refs have difficult jobs, and I don't expect perfection. I expect fairness and an honest effort. Too many times it isn't there...

dirno2000
02-09-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
Dirno, thanks for the Vescey column--interesting stuff. Do you have a link to it?



Link (http://nypost.com/seven/02082004/sports/16117.htm)

LRB
02-09-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by: scorched03
him and javey, the guy that tossed payton for "throwing" the ball at his feet the last time Mavs/Lakers game, suck.

best officials (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/survey/2002-04-19-fan-insider-results.htm)
1st column: fans
2nd: NBA insiders
1. None 48% 1. Dick Bavetta 40%
2. Steve Javie 7% 2. Steve Javie 15%
3. Joey Crawford 5% 3. Joey Crawford 14%
4. Other 40% 4. Other 31%

No ref is perfect, but I do think that Bavetta is one of the better refs. That's not a ringing indorsement considering the state of NBA officiating, but if all refs could be as good as Bavetta I'd consider it a major improvement.

Javie and Crawford and battling it out for the worst spot. Those two undermine the integrity of the game more than anything else in history.

Chiwas
02-10-2004, 01:51 PM
What I would want to know is why the NBA, read Stern, gets stuck with those referees. Aren't better options out there?

WayOutWest
02-10-2004, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by: Chiwas
What I would want to know is why the NBA, read Stern, gets stuck with those referees. Aren't better options out there?

All the good refs got busted or were forced to retire after the embezzlement scandal a few years back. Seems, amoung other things, officials were trading in their 1st class tickets for coach tickets and pocketing thousands undeclared dollars for every game.

Max Power
02-10-2004, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by: WayOutWest

Originally posted by: Chiwas
What I would want to know is why the NBA, read Stern, gets stuck with those referees. Aren't better options out there?

All the good refs got busted or were forced to retire after the embezzlement scandal a few years back. Seems, amoung other things, officials were trading in their 1st class tickets for coach tickets and pocketing thousands undeclared dollars for every game.

That was a bad scandal. The new refs have never gotten as good as the ones who left.