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FishForLunch
04-12-2004, 05:01 PM
We have to ask Andy Rooney does that mean John Kerry is not a hero too?

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4/12/2004

By ANDY ROONEY

Most of the reporting from Iraq is about death and destruction. We don't learn much about what our soldiers in Iraq are thinking or doing. There's no Ernie Pyle to tell us, and, if there were, the military would make it difficult or impossible for him to let us know.
It would be interesting to have a reporter ask a group of our soldiers in Iraq to answer five questions and see the results:

1. Do you think your country did the right thing sending you into Iraq?

2. Are you doing what America set out to do to make Iraq a democracy, or have we failed so badly that we should pack up and get out before more of you are killed?

3. Do the orders you get handed down from one headquarters to another, all far removed from the fighting, seem sensible, or do you think our highest command is out of touch with the reality of your situation?

4. If you could have a medal or a trip home, which would you take?

5. Are you encouraged by all the talk back home about how brave you are and how everyone supports you?

Treating soldiers fighting their war as brave heroes is an old civilian trick designed to keep the soldiers at it. But you can be sure our soldiers in Iraq are not all brave heroes gladly risking their lives for us sitting comfortably back here at home.

Our soldiers in Iraq are people, young men and women, and they behave like people - sometimes good and sometimes bad, sometimes brave, sometimes fearful. It's disingenuous of the rest of us to encourage them to fight this war by idolizing them.

We pin medals on their chests to keep them going. We speak of them as if they volunteered to risk their lives to save ours, but there isn't much voluntary about what most of them have done. A relatively small number are professional soldiers. During the last few years, when millions of jobs disappeared, many young people, desperate for some income, enlisted in the Army. About 40 percent of our soldiers in Iraq enlisted in the National Guard or the Army Reserve to pick up some extra money and never thought they'd be called on to fight. They want to come home.

One indication that not all soldiers in Iraq are happy warriors is the report recently released by the Army showing that 23 of them committed suicide there last year. This is a dismaying figure. If 22 young men and one woman killed themselves because they couldn't take it, think how many more are desperately unhappy but unwilling to die.

We must support our soldiers in Iraq because it's our fault they're risking their lives there. However, we should not bestow the mantle of heroism on all of them for simply being where we sent them. Most are victims, not heroes.

America's intentions are honorable. I believe that, and we must find a way of making the rest of the world believe it. We want to do the right thing. We care about the rest of the world. President Bush's intentions were honorable when he took us into Iraq. They were not well thought out but honorable.

Bush's determination to make the evidence fit the action he took, which it does not, has made things look worse. We pay lip service to the virtues of openness and honesty, but for some reason, we too often act as though there was a better way of handling a bad situation than by being absolutely open and honest.

Usually Lurkin
04-12-2004, 05:47 PM
By ANDY ROONEY

One indication that not all soldiers in Iraq are happy warriors is the report recently released by the Army showing that 23 of them committed suicide there last year. This is a dismaying figure. If 22 young men and one woman killed themselves because they couldn't take it, think how many more are desperately unhappy but unwilling to die.

we should shut down MIT because they have a lot of suicides there. We should pull the nurses out of emergency rooms, and air traffic controllers out of the towers. After all, most of those people only took the jobs to make some money. Sure, a few of them are there because they want to save lives, because they want to ensure security, because they heroically accept the responsibility. But for the vast majority of air traffic controllers and nurses, if you asked them, "would you rather end your shift right now, or have a medal?" would answer "I'd rather go home." So you see, we should get rid of all jobs in which people assume high stress and risk (Maybe we can just raise taxes on those people who are so rich they don't have to work, and they can pay for everyone else not to work. Then no one would have to work, and we'd all be rich.) because (as Andy is so kind to point out), they are really too stupid to know what they are doing, and they are probably selfish pigs.

Boy, talk about a stupid, selfish pig. . .

madape
04-12-2004, 06:35 PM
60 minutes until Rooney gets fired. tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick

Mavdog
04-12-2004, 07:42 PM
Where did this article come from? It is not online at 60 minutes/CBS.


edit: Thanks for the link

FishForLunch
04-12-2004, 08:34 PM
Andy also writes editorials for The Buffalo News (http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20040412/1057793.asp)

reeds
04-14-2004, 06:13 PM
some are heros, some are not...just like any other war...

dude1394
04-14-2004, 07:18 PM
They are all hereos period. Especially compared to us sitting around typing on a message-board.

Chiwas
04-14-2004, 07:59 PM
Finally some sense about our position compared to theirs.

In a related comment, I would define a hero as somebody who fights for the freedom of his land, or for the security of his land. He is a hero for his beloved ones, for his countryfellows. But when it is not a matter of that, but of money and/or power, he is a mercenary. Where does the first end and the latter start? Can they overlap each other at some point? I'm still trying to figure it out.

Drbio
04-15-2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by: dude1394
They are all hereos period. Especially compared to us sitting around typing on a message-board.

Absolutely.

reeds
04-15-2004, 04:26 PM
You are all intitled to your opinion. I feel some are heros, I feel some are not. Some cannot stand being over there, some could care less what the cause is, some signed up for a paycheck never thinking they would have to serve in IRAQ. Some care less about our country than us typing on these message boards...NOT all over there are heros- just my opinion of course

madape
04-15-2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by: reeds
You are all intitled to your opinion. I feel some are heros, I feel some are not. Some cannot stand being over there, some could care less what the cause is, some signed up for a paycheck never thinking they would have to serve in IRAQ. Some care less about our country than us typing on these message boards...NOT all over there are heros- just my opinion of course

I know of two US solders who definitely are NOT heroes: Two American soldiers have deserted to Canada (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1190714,00.html)

EricaLubarsky
04-15-2004, 05:27 PM
Andy Rooney confuses his definition of 'hero'. Whether or not the war in Iraq was justified and is going to provide positive results, the troops are heroes because they are doing things beyond the call of duty- risking their lives to protect other G.I.s and civilians. If Bush messed up the justification, then that is his bad, but that does not undermine the heroics of our troops.

Usually Lurkin
04-16-2004, 07:19 AM
Rooney's point isn't that the justification for war is bad, therefore the warriors are not heroic.

His point is that the warriors are not warriors at all, but are a bunch of wet babies who'd rather kill themselves or go home than fight for freedom. His point is that their motivation for fighting does not come from within, but that they are brainwashed by the public, and forced by the government, and therefore are not heroic.

Drbio
04-16-2004, 04:10 PM
You know reeds...you may be right. Some of our soldiers, like Kerry, will be incapable of heroic acts.

reeds
04-17-2004, 05:26 PM
"You know reeds...you may be right. Some of our soldiers, like Kerry, will be incapable of heroic acts."

I read what he did in Vietnam...much more heroic than anything BUSH ever did- thats for sure....

Chiwas
04-17-2004, 08:58 PM
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9210/warrior.JPG

Bush: "I cannot know if Iraq is turning into other Vietnam. I avoided the military service and didn't go to that war."

(Is the author right about Bush? I hadn't posted it cause I thought Bush was a pilot.)

Drbio
04-17-2004, 11:14 PM
Bush would never speak ill of our armed servicemen and women. Kerry cannot say that. That is all that I need to know. Put Kerry in power and our armed forces will fall apart.

Usually Lurkin
04-19-2004, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by: reeds
"You know reeds...you may be right. Some of our soldiers, like Kerry, will be incapable of heroic acts."

I read what he did in Vietnam...much more heroic than anything BUSH ever did- thats for sure....
****** In testimony before Congress, Kerry told of alleged atrocities being committed by American troops in the Southeast Asian country. He told of rapes and mutilations, torture and murder.* He spoke of these allegations, most of which were never proven but for the massacre at My Lai and isolated instances, as U.S. servicemen and women were still fighting and dying in the Vietnam rice fields, cities, and jungles.* While he was attending and speaking at rallies here in the United States with the likes of Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland, people like Oliver North and Senator John McCain were risking their lives in a military action born of the Cold War, designed and implemented by Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara. *While he spotlights the deeds that garnered him a chest full of medals, he broke the code of leaving no one behind when he turned his back on those who were still fighting in Vietnam after his return.. . .

****** Kerry’s tenure on his first swift boat, No. 44, left him with no honors but rather some skeletons.* While in command of Swift Boat No. 44, Kerry and crew functioned without forethought in a ''Free Fire Zone'' injudiciously firing at targets of opportunity achieving a number of enemy kills along with some civilian deaths as well.* His body count included a woman, her baby, a 12-year-old boy, an elderly man and several South Vietnamese soldiers. *He freely admits enjoining in this type of activity and the casualties they caused--even the civilian casualties.. . .
****** He then took command of a second swift boat, No. 94, which operated in the Mekong Delta.* Under his command they totaled 18 missions over a period of 48 days, a far cry from the many who completed full tours of duty there, Oliver North and Sen. John McCain among this group. *It was with this assignment that he was awarded his Silver Star for killing a Viet Cong soldier who was already pinned down and wounded in a ''Hooch'' courtesy of Kerry’s .50 caliber gunner.* It was also on swift boat No. 94 where he received his third Purple Heart for once again receiving a minor wound from a mine that went off adjacent to his swift boat.* Later, when asked about the severity of the combat injuries Kerry himself said that one of them cost him about two days of service, and that the other two did not interrupt his duty. *He classified himself as ''walking wounded.''
******* Keep in mind that John Forbes Kerry was the commander of his swift boats and that as commander he was the one charged with citing people in his command for commendations, an interesting fact to say the least.. . .

link (http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=6249)

Mavdog
04-19-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin
[quote]

***** In testimony before Congress, Kerry told of alleged atrocities being committed by American troops in the Southeast Asian country. He told of rapes and mutilations, torture and murder.* He spoke of these allegations, most of which were never proven but for the massacre at My Lai and isolated instances, as U.S. servicemen and women were still fighting and dying in the Vietnam rice fields, cities, and jungles.* While he was attending and speaking at rallies here in the United States with the likes of Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland, people like Oliver North and Senator John McCain were risking their lives in a military action born of the Cold War, designed and implemented by Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara. *While he spotlights the deeds that garnered him a chest full of medals, he broke the code of leaving no one behind when he turned his back on those who were still fighting in Vietnam after his return.. .

Or did Kerry honor his fellow soldiers by his vocal opposition to the Vietnam war? It's two sides to the argument.


****** Kerry’s tenure on his first swift boat, No. 44, left him with no honors but rather some skeletons.* While in command of Swift Boat No. 44, Kerry and crew functioned without forethought in a ''Free Fire Zone'' injudiciously firing at targets of opportunity achieving a number of enemy kills along with some civilian deaths as well.* His body count included a woman, her baby, a 12-year-old boy, an elderly man and several South Vietnamese soldiers. *He freely admits enjoining in this type of activity and the casualties they caused--even the civilian casualties.. . .

Wow, let's just try to change the facts to suit the writer's objective:

Kerry commanded his first swift boat, No. 44, from December 1968 through January 1969, a period that is often overlooked because he did not receive any medals while serving on this craft. But he first learned to skipper on the 44, and he conducted the wrenching Christmas Eve mission in which the old man in the river was probably killed in the crossfire.

Kerry said in a recent interview that he didn't remember anything about the elderly man in the water, noting that he sometimes couldn't see all of the action. But Wasser, who says his memory of the event remains vivid, reminded Kerry about it when the pair met earlier this year and talked about the mission for the first time in many years. Wasser remains haunted by the image of the man being shot: "I don't even enjoy Christmas anymore," he said.

The possibility of killing innocent civilians haunted Kerry. With many of the South Vietnamese waterways in ''free fire zones'' - meaning that the US Navy was authorized to shoot anyone who was violating a curfew - the likelihood that innocent villagers could be killed was high.

One of Kerry's crewmates on swift boat No. 44 said such an event happened. Drew Whitlow of Arkansas said he was on patrol with Kerry when Whitlow spotted movement along the shore and yelled, "I'm going to fire!" The quiet river exploded in gunfire, with people on the shoreline dropping, dead or wounded, and no fire being returned.

Whitlow recalled the scene: "This is a free fire zone, I will fire, I will put rounds in, I'm doing my thing, I'm feeling Mr. Macho. But then when you get close, you see the expressions of the village people, people waving their arms, saying, `No, no, no! Wait a minute, hold this off.' I ended up putting a few down, and then I found out it was friendlies."

To make matters worse, a mortar round ricocheted back at the boat and wounded three crewmen.

Kerry, asked about Whitlow's account, said he had no recollection of the episode and wondered whether Whitlow was confusing it with another event or whether he was with Whitlow on that occasion. Naval records do not resolve the matter. After being told about Whitlow's recollection by the Globe, Kerry discussed the matter with Whitlow and said he still doesn't remember it.


****** He then took command of a second swift boat, No. 94, which operated in the Mekong Delta.* Under his command they totaled 18 missions over a period of 48 days, a far cry from the many who completed full tours of duty there, Oliver North and Sen. John McCain among this group. *It was with this assignment that he was awarded his Silver Star for killing a Viet Cong soldier who was already pinned down and wounded in a ''Hooch'' courtesy of Kerry’s .50 caliber gunner.* It was also on swift boat No. 94 where he received his third Purple Heart for once again receiving a minor wound from a mine that went off adjacent to his swift boat.* Later, when asked about the severity of the combat injuries Kerry himself said that one of them cost him about two days of service, and that the other two did not interrupt his duty. *He classified himself as ''walking wounded.''

"The crewman with the best view of the action was Frederic Short, the man in the tub operating the twin guns. Short had not talked to Kerry for 34 years, until after he was recently contacted by a Globe reporter. Kerry said he had "totally forgotten" Short was on board that day.

Short had joined Kerry's crew just two weeks earlier, as a last-minute replacement, and he was as green as the Arkansas grass of his home. He said he didn't realize that he should have carried an M-16 rifle, figuring the tub's machine guns would be enough. But as Kerry stood face to face with the guerrilla carrying the rocket, Short realized his predicament. With the boat beached and the bow tilted up, a guard rail prevented him from taking aim at the enemy. For a terrifying moment, the guerrilla looked straight at Short with the rocket.

Short believes the guerrilla didn't fire because he was too close and needed to be a suitable distance to hit the boat squarely and avoid ricochet debris. Short tried to protect his skipper.

"I laid in fire with the twin .50s, and he got behind a hootch," recalled Short. "I laid 50 rounds in there, and Mr. Kerry went in. Rounds were coming everywhere. We were getting fire from both sides of the river. It was a canal. We were receiving fire from the opposite bank, also, and there was no way I could bring my guns to bear on that."

Short said there is "no doubt" that Kerry saved the boat and crew. "That was a him-or-us thing, that was a loaded weapon with a shape charge on it. ... It could pierce a tank. I wouldn't have been here talking to you. I probably prayed more up that creek than a Southern Baptist church does in a month."

Charles Gibson, who served on Kerry's boat that day because he was on a one-week indoctrination course, said Kerry's action was dangerous but necessary. "Every day you wake up and say, `How the hell did we get out of that alive?"' Gibson said. "Kerry was a good leader. He knew what he was doing."


Keep in mind that John Forbes Kerry was the commander of his swift boats and that as commander he was the one charged with citing people in his command for commendations, an interesting fact to say the least.. . .

NO, Kerry was not responsible for "citing" himself for commendations:

"When Kerry returned to his base, his commanding officer, George Elliott, raised an issue with Kerry: the fine line between whether the action merited a medal or a court-martial.

"When [Kerry] came back from the well-publicized action where he beached his boat in middle of ambush and chased a VC around a hootch and ended his life, when [Kerry] came back and I heard his debrief, I said, `John, I don't know whether you should be court-martialed or given a medal, court-martialed for leaving your ship, your post,"' Elliott recalled in an interview.

"But I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about that," Elliott said. A Silver Star, which the Navy said is its fifth-highest medal, commends distinctive gallantry in action."

and his 3 Purple Hearts:
"
A couple of weeks later, on March 13, 1969, a mine detonated near Kerry's boat, wounding Kerry in the right arm, according to the citation written by Zumwalt. Guerrillas started firing on the boats from the shoreline. Kerry then realized that he had lost overboard a Green Beret who is identified only as "Rassman."

"The man was receiving sniper fire from both banks," according to Kerry's Bronze Star citation from that day. "Lt. Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain, with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lt. Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged craft and towed the boat to safety. Lt. Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the US Naval Service," Zumwalt's citation said.

"There were an awful lot of Purple Hearts -- from shrapnel, some of those might have been M-40 grenades," said Elliott, Kerry's commanding officer. "The Purple Hearts were coming down in boxes. Kerry, he had three Purple Hearts. None of them took him off duty. Not to belittle it, that was more the rule than the exception."

But Kerry thought he had seen and done enough. The rules, he said, allowed a thrice-wounded soldier to return to the United States immediately"

Kerry biography (http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml)

Usually Lurkin
04-19-2004, 12:13 PM
So what you are saying is - despite shooting some civilians, leaving the war early, and bad-mouthing his fellow soldiers for political gain, that what he did was actually heroic? You might even say that about people who went to vietnam, but didn't want to.

I'd agree with Reeds who said "some are heroes and some aren't". But the distinction is in the perception, and it's obvious sometimes (Like the rooney article, and the article I posted) when someones political goals are driving the distinction more than thoughts of the soldiers.

madape
04-19-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin
So what you are saying is - despite shooting some civilians, leaving the war early, and bad-mouthing his fellow soldiers for political gain, that what he did was actually heroic?

Kerry also has described himself as a war criminal who committed atrocities.



Here's (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4772030/) an excerpt from yesterday's meet the press where Russert pressed Kerry on his 1971 admission to war crimes during his tour in Vietnam:



(Videotape, MEET THE PRESS, April 18, 1971):

MR. KERRY (Vietnam Veterans Against the War): There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free-fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: You committed atrocities.

SEN. KERRY: Where did all that dark hair go, Tim? That’s a big question for me. You know, I thought a lot, for a long time, about that period of time, the things we said, and I think the word is a bad word. I think it’s an inappropriate word. I mean, if you wanted to ask me have you ever made mistakes in your life, sure. I think some of the language that I used was a language that reflected an anger. It was honest, but it was in anger, it was a little bit excessive.

MR. RUSSERT: You used the word “war criminals.”

SEN. KERRY: Well, let me just finish. Let me must finish. It was, I think, a reflection of the kind of times we found ourselves in and I don’t like it when I hear it today. I don’t like it, but I want you to notice that at the end, I wasn’t talking about the soldiers and the soldiers’ blame, and my great regret is, I hope no soldier—I mean, I think some soldiers were angry at me for that, and I understand that and I regret that, because I love them. But the words were honest but on the other hand, they were a little bit over the top. And I think that there were breaches of the Geneva Conventions. There were policies in place that were not acceptable according to the laws of warfare, and everybody knows that. I mean, books have chronicled that, so I’m not going to walk away from that. But I wish I had found a way to say it in a less abrasive way.

MR. RUSSERT: But, Senator, when you testified before the Senate, you talked about some of the hearings you had observed at the winter soldiers meeting and you said that people had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and on and on. A lot of those stories have been discredited, and in hindsight was your testimony...

SEN. KERRY: Actually, a lot of them have been documented.

MR. RUSSERT: So you stand by that?

SEN. KERRY: A lot of those stories have been documented. Have some been discredited? Sure, they have, Tim. The problem is that’s not where the focus should have been. And, you know, when you’re angry about something and you’re young, you know, you’re perfectly capable of not—I mean, if I had the kind of experience and time behind me that I have today, I’d have framed some of that differently. Needless to say, I’m proud that I stood up. I don’t want anybody to think twice about it. I’m proud that I took the position that I took to oppose it. I think we saved lives, and I’m proud that I stood up at a time when it was important to stand up, but I’m not going to quibble, you know, 35 years later that I might not have phrased things more artfully at times.

Mavdog
04-19-2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin
So what you are saying is - despite shooting some civilians, leaving the war early, and bad-mouthing his fellow soldiers for political gain, that what he did was actually heroic? You might even say that about people who went to vietnam, but didn't want to.

That may be what you and the writer of this piece believe, but not what I am saying. From my point of view, he is a veteran who saw his share of combat, was wounded and decorated for that service and shouldn't need to be defended from those who wish to belittle that history.


I'd agree with Reeds who said "some are heroes and some aren't". But the distinction is in the perception, and it's obvious sometimes (Like the rooney article, and the article I posted) when someones political goals are driving the distinction more than thoughts of the soldiers.

The true motivation really doesn't matter IMHO it's the act and subsequent events that determine the label.

Didn't you ever see "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance"? i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Drbio
04-19-2004, 03:25 PM
I don’t like it when I hear it today
-John Kerry 2004



Of course you don't. It shows your true colors and doesn't fit your waffling political agenda.

dude1394
04-20-2004, 07:47 PM
As soon as kerry releases ALL of his military records then we'll see. Until then he's AWOL right?? I would think Mavdog you would be clamoring for all of his records to be released?

dude1394
04-20-2004, 07:48 PM
More heroes ..

Heroic Company (http://www.halliburton.com/news/archive/2004/corpnws_042004.jsp)

Halliburton and KBR released the following statement after the confirmation that three bodies were positively identified after an attack on a transportation convoy in Iraq on April 9.

“It is with our heartfelt sympathy that we confirm the death of three KBR colleagues working in Iraq as transportation personnel for the LOGCAP III Project. Our co-workers, Stephen Hulett, 48, of Manistee, Michigan; Jack Montague, 52, of Pittsburg, Illinois; and Jeffery Parker, 45, of Lake Charles, Louisiana, were brave hearts without medals, humanitarians without parades and heroes without statues.

Once Iraq is re-built, as it will be, it will be a living testament to the tenacity, courage and sacrifice of these employees.

We grieve today for the tragic and sudden loss of our co-workers. Halliburton extends its sincere condolences to the families of these employees. This is a very difficult time for the Halliburton family.

There is no road map for something like this and we are doing everything we can to assist the families as well as our employees to cope with this huge tragedy. The passing of these brave men leaves a void in our hearts and in the organization that will be difficult to fill.

Also, we at Halliburton and KBR remain prayerful for the families of our four other missing employees.

Civilian contractors work side-by-side with the military and Iraqi people. Our work is difficult and in a dangerous environment and Halliburton and its subcontractors have lost 33 personnel while performing services under our contracts in the Kuwait-Iraq region.

To protect the privacy of the employees' families, we will not release additional information at this time. We strongly urge you to respect the privacy of the families during this difficult situation. We are monitoring the current situation in Iraq and continue to work closely with coalition authorities regarding the safety and security of all our personnel in the region, but it would be inappropriate for us to comment further at this time.

We will continue to update the company’s web site at www.halliburton.com with any new developments on our missing employees in Iraq.”

Mavdog
04-21-2004, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by: dude1394
As soon as kerry releases ALL of his military records then we'll see. Until then he's AWOL right?? I would think Mavdog you would be clamoring for all of his records to be released?

Why would I be eager to see his records? It's clear he served, was decorated, opposed the war, became a politician. The military records mean nothing.

BTW the records have been released.

FishForLunch
04-21-2004, 08:42 AM
Yes partially, if bush had done this partiall release you and the Media would cause such an uproar.

Mavdog
04-21-2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by: FishForLunch
Yes partially, if bush had done this partiall release you and the Media would cause such an uproar.

Whoops, you're wrong Fish, as I have stated many times on this board that the military records of GWBush shouldn't be an issue.

Your also wrong on "partially":

"When asked about the questions surrounding his Purple Hearts Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press," Kerry said all his military records are available to the public. Meehan said Kerry requested a copy of his record from the Navy last month and received roughly 150 pages last week. He said the entire file would be posted online"

madape
04-21-2004, 10:45 AM
Kerry can't sit up on his podium and beg for Bush to reveal his military documents and not be willing to release his own. It makes him look like a hypocritical fool.

dude1394
04-21-2004, 10:52 AM
You are right the military records of GWBush should NOT be an issue. However the military records of Kerry ARE an issue. Mainly because he can't speak more than 10 sentences without telling everyone how he served in Nam.

If bush constantly made references to his service then his records would be fair game.

But c'est la vie. Nowadays politicians completly forego all privacy. Military,medical, financial.. Even the records of their spouses (especially when they are claiming that they will finance their hubbies campaign) are free game.

Sad but true.

When he does it, I'll believe it. It will be interesting to see if this is on the Front Page of the times, but somehow I doubt it.

Mavdog
04-21-2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by: dude1394
You are right the military records of GWBush should NOT be an issue. However the military records of Kerry ARE an issue. Mainly because he can't speak more than 10 sentences without telling everyone how he served in Nam.

If bush constantly made references to his service then his records would be fair game.

But c'est la vie. Nowadays politicians completly forego all privacy. Military,medical, financial.. Even the records of their spouses (especially when they are claiming that they will finance their hubbies campaign) are free game.

Sad but true.

When he does it, I'll believe it. It will be interesting to see if this is on the Front Page of the times, but somehow I doubt it.

A perfect illustration of being hypocritical. Congratulations on your dubious acheivement.

dude1394
04-21-2004, 11:54 AM
Whatever dude, if bush were runing around every two sentences talking about how great a soldier he was, then heck yea he's opening himself up to scrutiny. Where is my "hypocrisy" other than acknowledging the facts of our current politcal process?