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View Full Version : Jason Kidd Wants To Be A Laker, Spur or Maverick


Evilmav2
07-30-2004, 11:26 PM
Whoops... Sorry Mods. I didn't notice that someone already posted this deep down on the Kidd to Dallas Trade Thread...

http://ctchoops.com/jason_kidd_upper_deck_rookie.jpg
Jason Kidd Wants To Be A Laker, Spur or Maverick

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The San Antonio Spurs, Los Angeles Lakers and Dallas Mavericks are the three teams that most intrigue Jason Kidd as possible destinations if he demands a trade from the New Jersey Nets, league sources told ESPN.com.

Kidd has expressed interest in moving to each of those teams in the past month, sources said, in the wake of the Nets discarding starters Kenyon Martin and Kerry Kittles.

Kidd was on the verge of leaving New Jersey and signing outright with San Antonio in July 2003, but sources indicate that the Spurs -- on top of concerns about Kidd's surgically repaired left knee -- now feel they lack the financial flexibility to bring Kidd in via trade after re-signing Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili and adding Rasho Nesterovic and Brent Barry over the past two summers.

The Lakers, meanwhile, don't appear interested in taking on Kidd's contract, sources said, since a Kidd-Kobe Bryant backcourt partnership would keep L.A. well over the salary cap for the rest of the decade.

One source close to Kidd said there's a belief in the point guard's camp that Dallas' Mark Cuban is the only owner out there who'd be willing to absorb the five years and $90 million-plus left on the deal Kidd signed last summer ... and with Kidd expected to miss the start of the season after microfracture surgery on the 31-year-old's left knee on July 1.

The Mavericks' interest is by no means certain, though. Dallas declined to offer Steve Nash more than $36 million over four guaranteed seasons in part because of fears that the 30-year-old could not physically handle a longer contract, prompting Nash to sign with Phoenix. Re-acquiring Kidd, who was drafted by the Mavericks in 1994, would potentially cost them more long-term than Dallas' recent attempts to trade for Shaquille O'Neal. Kidd would likely have to prove his health to the Mavericks before even a gambler such as Cuban would take that risk.

Yet unlike the Spurs, who presently lack trade-friendly contracts, Dallas and the Lakers have trade assets that could satisfy the apparent cost-cutting intentions of incoming Nets owner Bruce Ratner ... and enough leftover talent on their rosters to contend for the championship after adding Kidd.

The Mavericks can package the expiring contract of former Eastern Conference All-Star forward Antoine Walker and promising swingman Josh Howard in a swap for Kidd. The Lakers have two expiring contracts (Gary Payton and Rick Fox) and more than one inexpensive young player (Kareem Rush and Luke Walton) to offer the Nets if they change course and decide to pursue Kidd.

The bigger unknown is how New Jersey would respond to a trade demand. Ratner could refuse and attempt to rebuild the franchise around Kidd and Richard Jefferson. But it's believed that Kidd has no interest, at his age, in a rebuilding project. As leverage to force a trade, Kidd could attempt to draw out his recovery from knee surgery, increasing the chances that the Nets will struggle early next season and encounter even more trouble than expected attracting fans to Continental Airlines Arena as a Brooklyn-bound lameduck.

Holding off San Antonio to re-sign Kidd last summer was supposed to bring stability to the Nets and cement them as an East power after back-to-back trips to the NBA Finals. New Jersey has instead seen nothing but tumult in the year since, starting with release of Dikembe Mutombo and the failed comeback Alonzo Mourning, the center Kidd urged the Nets to sign. The firing of coach Byron Scott soon followed, in spite of Kidd's season-long knee troubles, and the tumult continued after a brief renaissance under new coach Lawrence Frank, ending with a second-round playoff exit. Since then, the controversial ownership change and Martin's departure in a sign-and-trade with Denver have sparked fears that Kidd will try to force his way out.

NBA commissioner David Stern, who attended Team USA's scrimmage Friday at the University of North Florida, disputes the notion that the Nets are simply dumping assets to cut costs.

"In some ways, I think you now see the Nets following the Denver model," Stern said. "Where you have draft picks and cap room and a key player or two, and you build the team around that over time."

Although Ratner's ownership group has not been formally approved by the league, Stern said he expects the approval in the near future. Stern added that a specially appointed finance committee was likely to vote on Ratner's group by Monday at the latest and then forward their recommendation to the NBA's Board of Governors for final approval.

Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com. To e-mail him, click here. Also, click here to send a question for possible use on ESPNEWS.


ESPN Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1849510)

PepperTheMavsFan41
07-30-2004, 11:28 PM
LA and SA owners are to cheap to get Kidd.


IF the mavs want Kidd, I think they could steal him.

Hitman
07-30-2004, 11:55 PM
This is the moment when, for all his bragging, Cuban finally comes through with the big ticket.

Kidd + Nowitzki is a match made in heaven.

sike
07-30-2004, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by: PepperTheMavsFan41
LA and SA owners are to cheap to get Kidd.
IF the mavs want Kidd, I think they could steal him.
"steal him" is a relative phrase....no one is a steal at $90,000,000

Max Power
07-31-2004, 12:03 AM
If we could get Kidd I'd be very happy. He is a huge talent upgrade over Nash.

mavsfanforever
07-31-2004, 12:07 AM
Since nothing else is going on with the mavs lets keep this thread here.

Kidd is a huge upgrade over nash as max said. Kidd makes everyone around him better and he is very good defender. Bring the kidd.

PepperTheMavsFan41
07-31-2004, 12:20 AM
By Steal him im talking

L8ner, Delk, Stackhouse for Kidd and Zo kinda steal.


Not giving up Walker of JoHo.

MikeB
07-31-2004, 01:16 AM
For heavens sake lets not give them Stackhouse...he doesn't fit what they want anyway since he has 3 years left on his contract...lets give them the easiest deal they have ever seen:

Walker & Laettner
FOR
JKidd & Zo

Works in RealGM

I say lets do it!

Poindexter Einstein
07-31-2004, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by: Max Power
He is a huge talent upgrade over Nash.

"Is"?????????????

"Was" is the only accurate statement. No one (even the docs) know if he will recuperate fully (no one EVER has, fwiw)

And he is a HUGE contract, about 50% MORE than Nash's. Major risk, wth the medical uncertainty. Ugh.

Poindexter Einstein
07-31-2004, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by: MikeB

Walker & Laettner
FOR
JKidd & Zo!

You want Zo, for the privilege of taking the risk on Kidd's knee/contract? Yikes.

Take Zo out, I say. And replace Laettner with TAW. Then we are talking, perhaps.

ddh33
07-31-2004, 01:48 AM
I still think makes sense. Obviously, I don't know if it will happen, but this could make a lot of sense for both parties.

Dallas is the team that could pay Kidd's salary, offer an All-star PF and possible perimeter player. If Kidd demands out, and NJ decided to oblige him, Dallas steps into the lead.

The next question is one you probably thought you would never have to ask: will Mark pay?

MAVSWIN
07-31-2004, 02:28 AM
S--t just go back and get Van Excel and let Harris come off the bench and slowly develop! Nick doesn't have too many years left on his contract either!

NBAGnome
07-31-2004, 02:58 AM
I would love to see the wicked sick Kidd to Howard alley oops.

Mavs414
07-31-2004, 04:20 AM
yea we need to get kidd but keep stackhouse i like stackhouse

EricaLubarsky
07-31-2004, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by: MAVSWIN
S--t just go back and get Van Excel and let Harris come off the bench and slowly develop! Nick doesn't have too many years left on his contract either!



http://www.jodiverse.com/img/wall.gif

Max Power
07-31-2004, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein

Originally posted by: Max Power
He is a huge talent upgrade over Nash.

"Is"?????????????

"Was" is the only accurate statement. No one (even the docs) know if he will recuperate fully (no one EVER has, fwiw)

And he is a HUGE contract, about 50% MORE than Nash's. Major risk, wth the medical uncertainty. Ugh.

Even a gimpy Kidd was better than a "healthy" Nash last year. And the injury is the only reason Kidd is available at all. I'd rather take a chance on the best player in the NBA at his position than for a guy who didn't even make the All-Star team last year.

The contract >might< be a problem but if Kidd offers to make the final year of his contract non-guaranteed (ala NVE) in order to get traded to a contender then the Mavs are still flexible in 2008.

Joey
07-31-2004, 10:01 AM
I'd like to see the Mavs try to get Zo as well. Rumor has it that he'd like to try and return again. However, even if he doesn't, he'd be a good mentor to DJ and PPod. Maybe he could even give Shawn and Calvin some pointers. The rule (as is said so often on this board) is that you never trade your big's. So why wouldn't we trade FOR a big (even though he has a huge amount of risk)? J-Kidd will be fine after the surgery. He is a hard worker and he wants to win a championship so bad that he won't let the surgery stand in his way. Bring him on. I'd prefered to have kept Nash than to worry about the PG spot, but since it didn't happen, why not try to get one of the best PG's in the history of the sport? Give up Walk, L8, and EVEN HOWARD if needed.

jayC
07-31-2004, 10:51 AM
I am a little nervous about kidds procedure three holes drilled in his knee. If the mavs doctors check him out that he is ready to play , then by all means the mavericks should make an attempt to trade for him.

Booth/Bradley
Dirk/Clark
Finley/Howard
Stackhouse/Daniels
Kidd/Harris

If you could sign Keon Clark. Then the mavs would have a fantastic second team.

Joey
07-31-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by: jayC
I am a little nervous about kidds procedure three holes drilled in his knee. If the mavs doctors check him out that he is ready to play , then by all means the mavericks should make an attempt to trade for him.

Booth/Bradley
Dirk/Clark
Finley/Howard
Stackhouse/Daniels
Kidd/Harris

If you could sign Keon Clark. Then the mavs would have a fantastic second team.

Do you think Keon would take the LLE?

grndmstr_c
07-31-2004, 11:15 AM
I'm pretty sure he'd have to take the vet min, as we gave DJ our LLE.

FilthyFinMavs
07-31-2004, 11:20 AM
Bring him to town but I really have a hard time believing that Cuban would trade for Kidd who is coming off an injury. I believe it's the same injury Najera had last season but I could be wrong. I'm all for bringing Kidd in here. Only for the right trade that is. Give them cap space. That's fine. I have no problem with that but don't give them our youth. If you could get Kidd at a Laettner and Walker deal that would be great. I'm all for that. But i'm not throwing in Howard or any other young player. I sort of got the feeling that this season was a rebuilding season. That the Mavs really had no chance of winning anything and maybe not even making the playoffs. You bring in Kidd as a Mavs fan it makes you feel alive again. It makes you feel this team still has a chance and while doing so you are also rebuilding in a way with the youth on the bench watching guys like Kidd and Dirk.

freestyle
07-31-2004, 11:26 AM
Zo is done already. Unless Mark hires a team of doctors to reconstruct him before and after each game or buys a bionic kidney or the black market, it ain't gonna happen. Zo is a huge millstone around NJ's neck which we narrowly averted last year. Now is definetly not the time to trade for him....

JKidd seems to be a very polarizing player. I wouldn't mind trading Walker + spares for him, but I would be upset to see JHo included. Aside from the fact that I'm not crazy about JKidd as a person for some of the stunts he has pulled over the years, there seems to be a significant risk in taking on such a huge long-term contract when the player's best years are already behind him and he just had microfracture surgery on his knee. Isn't that the same surgery that took Najera and Webber years to 'recover' from? Yikes. JKidd's value to us would seem to be even more questionable if by the time he is able to play at his usual level our rookie is already seasoned. I'm guessing the lightnin' quick Harris would be able to make a microfracture JKidd look like Methuselah out there.

That huge contract could then come back to haunt us--e.g., if we wanted to resign MBenga after a promising second year. With his contract, I think JKidd will be untradeable before it is over.

LRB
07-31-2004, 11:31 AM
I don't think that we have to nor should we give up JHo to get Kidd. If Kidd is forcing his way out, and it appears that this may be the case, then NJ can't reasonably expect to get equal talent value for Kidd. Kidd is injured, and while IMO he'll be able to compete again this is far from certain. He has a monster contract that few teams would be willing to absorb. IMO Portland would be one of the few teams willing to compete for Kidd and able to do so.

I'd start by offering Walker straight up for Kidd. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. Former all-star at a position NJ needs with expiring contract so they can dump injured Kidd's contract and rebuild. Walker is also younger and can be resigned on the cheap.

If that failed then I'd offer Walker + TAW for Kidd and Zo. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. TAW's salary unlike Zo's will be paid for insurance should NJ elect not to use TAW. Lots of $savings for NJ and possibly a useful player for useless Zo.

If NJ balks totally I'd follow with Walker + Delk for Kidd and Zo. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. Delk is a useful player who is a combo guard and can play some PG especially with Wallker to handle the passing on offense.

All 3 above trades have the advantage of being able to be done immediately.

If that failed then I'd offer Walker + L8 for Kidd and Zo. This has to wait until August 24th to be finalized. This offers NJ the most savings. I'd still add a 1st rounder + $3 mil to make it work.

I'd try and buy Zo out and make him a coach. Mavs need a good big man coach. Cubes could pay him the same money and save because it wouldn't be subject to the luxary tax. I think Zo could earn his money as a big man and defensive coach.

Mavs have a slight edge in that this is one of the places that Kidd wants to come to. We should be wearing out the phones with NJ.

LRB
07-31-2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by: jayC
I am a little nervous about kidds procedure three holes drilled in his knee. If the mavs doctors check him out that he is ready to play , then by all means the mavericks should make an attempt to trade for him.

Booth/Bradley
Dirk/Clark
Finley/Howard
Stackhouse/Daniels
Kidd/Harris

If you could sign Keon Clark. Then the mavs would have a fantastic second team.


That procedure and the risk entailed with it is the only reason that we have a reasonable shot at kidd. Kidd at full health brings a long more teams into the bidding process and would significantly lower our chances. It's a gamble, but one worth taking IMO.

mavsfanforever
07-31-2004, 12:52 PM
Link to the other thread that was locked (http://dallas-mavs.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=18325)

grndmstr_c
07-31-2004, 01:07 PM
Re: those articles posted in the other thread, I sincerely hope that's just media BS, or Net dreams. No way would I give up Toine, Josh and a #1 for Kidd.

MavKikiNYC
07-31-2004, 01:34 PM
Kidd Expresses His Concerns to the Nets
By STEVE POPPER

Published: July 31, 2004

Jason Kidd met with Nets management and ownership at the team's practice facility yesterday, expressing his concern with the direction of the team.

According to an Eastern Conference official, Kidd did not make a trade demand, but he also did not back off his belief that he might be better off pursuing a championship ring elsewhere. The Nets, including the incoming owner, Bruce C. Ratner, attempted to soothe Kidd by pointing to next summer, when the team will have several draft picks and will probably have enough room under the salary cap to obtain another star player.

After Kenyon Martin was sent to Denver in a sign-and-trade deal for three draft picks, Kidd asked to be traded, according to a Nets official.

With another starter gone - Kidd's backcourt mate Kerry Kittles was traded to the Los Angeles Clippers on Thursday for a second-round pick - Kidd returned from a vacation and was compelled to meet yesterday with Ratner and the team's president, Rod Thorn.

Thorn would not comment on Kidd's state of mind, saying only, "If Jason has any demands, I'm sure he will make them public."

One Eastern Conference executive said that the Nets had discussed trade possibilities, including one with the Dallas Mavericks that would only further upset the remaining players and fans; the Mavericks are offering Antoine Walker, whose contract expires at the end of next season. Kidd, who had surgery on his left knee this month, has five years remaining on his contract.

The Nets have lost Martin, Kittles and their top frontcourt reserve, Rodney Rogers. They have added four players in the past week: their own 2002 first-round pick, Nenad Krstic, and the free agents Kyle Davis, Rodney Buford and Jacque Vaughn. The Nets are continuing negotiations to acquire guard Ron Mercer and forward Eric Williams, and they are even discussing a return by Eddie Griffin.

But none of those kinds of moves are the ones Kidd expected when he made the decision last year to return to the Nets after being courted by the San Antonio Spurs. To appease Kidd at the time, the Nets signed center Alonzo Mourning, whose contract has been one of the problems for the team in its salary purge. Mourning, who abandoned his comeback after his kidney disease worsened last season, is still owed $5.4 million this season before coming off the salary cap next summer.

grndmstr_c
07-31-2004, 01:38 PM
Now that's more like it.

jayC
07-31-2004, 01:46 PM
I'd do Walker , Jho and a number one for Kidd. That's fair market value for a superstar. Our number one pick will be in the 28-30 range with kidd and harris at the point for years to come. Josh Howard is a good role player but to say he will be an all-star at least with this team is unfair. With Stack, Finley and Kidd there is no way he would make the all-star team at guard.

Now if we could peddle GS in to taking Stack for Dampier that would be the perfect offseason. Addressing the two biggest needs of our team.

Dampier/Booth/Bradley
Dirk/Laetner
Finley/Najera
Daniels/Steff
Kidd/Harris

I'd go to war pardon the pun with this team.

grndmstr_c
07-31-2004, 01:55 PM
Walker, JHo, and a #1 would be a fair offer to a team looking to cut their losses for the overpaid best point guard in the league if that point guard were healthy as opposed to coming off knee surgery, and in his prime as opposed to on the downside of his career. Unfortunately, no such point guard currently exists.

Edit: if they want a second rounder or the rights to Flores they can have that.

Poindexter Einstein
07-31-2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by: LRB
I don't think that we have to nor should we give up JHo to get Kidd. If Kidd is forcing his way out, and it appears that this may be the case, then NJ can't reasonably expect to get equal talent value for Kidd. Kidd is injured, and while IMO he'll be able to compete again this is far from certain. He has a monster contract that few teams would be willing to absorb. IMO Portland would be one of the few teams willing to compete for Kidd and able to do so.

I'd start by offering Walker straight up for Kidd. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. Former all-star at a position NJ needs with expiring contract so they can dump injured Kidd's contract and rebuild. Walker is also younger and can be resigned on the cheap.

If that failed then I'd offer Walker + TAW for Kidd and Zo. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. TAW's salary unlike Zo's will be paid for insurance should NJ elect not to use TAW. Lots of $savings for NJ and possibly a useful player for useless Zo.

If NJ balks totally I'd follow with Walker + Delk for Kidd and Zo. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. Delk is a useful player who is a combo guard and can play some PG especially with Wallker to handle the passing on offense.

All 3 above trades have the advantage of being able to be done immediately.

If that failed then I'd offer Walker + L8 for Kidd and Zo. This has to wait until August 24th to be finalized. This offers NJ the most savings. I'd still add a 1st rounder + $3 mil to make it work.

I'd try and buy Zo out and make him a coach. Mavs need a good big man coach. Cubes could pay him the same money and save because it wouldn't be subject to the luxary tax. I think Zo could earn his money as a big man and defensive coach.

Mavs have a slight edge in that this is one of the places that Kidd wants to come to. We should be wearing out the phones with NJ.



I absolutely abhor the idea of chasing this deal as you propose. If NJ wants to deal him, and then makes a good offer then sweetens it a bit at a tme, THEN we should lite. Other than that, yck.

His contract is nasty if he is healthy. I am skeptical that any team (even Dallas) would take the risk without major sweeteners from NJ. This is not the Kidd you know. If he takes a couple yrs to recover, then Harris will be ready and Kidd will be 34, with a jillion dollar deal. Cant trade him, dont need him, he is old.

You guys are in love with Kidd in he past. That guy is gone, whether you realize it or not.

The idea that "this is only a knee, he'll probably be okay or almost as good" is absurd. Even the docs dont now. This is RADICAL and EXPERIMENTAL and HOPE type stuff. And no player has yet recovered fully. ZERO.

Poindexter Einstein
07-31-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by: jayC
I'd do Walker , Jho and a number one for Kidd. That's fair market value for a superstar. .


No way.

He is an EX-superstar. Mega money. Aging. Very dubious injury issues.

Take out JHo. Take out the #1. Put in some junk. THEN maybe NJ isnt ripping us off.

LRB
07-31-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein

Originally posted by: LRB
I don't think that we have to nor should we give up JHo to get Kidd. If Kidd is forcing his way out, and it appears that this may be the case, then NJ can't reasonably expect to get equal talent value for Kidd. Kidd is injured, and while IMO he'll be able to compete again this is far from certain. He has a monster contract that few teams would be willing to absorb. IMO Portland would be one of the few teams willing to compete for Kidd and able to do so.

I'd start by offering Walker straight up for Kidd. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. Former all-star at a position NJ needs with expiring contract so they can dump injured Kidd's contract and rebuild. Walker is also younger and can be resigned on the cheap.

If that failed then I'd offer Walker + TAW for Kidd and Zo. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. TAW's salary unlike Zo's will be paid for insurance should NJ elect not to use TAW. Lots of $savings for NJ and possibly a useful player for useless Zo.

If NJ balks totally I'd follow with Walker + Delk for Kidd and Zo. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. Delk is a useful player who is a combo guard and can play some PG especially with Wallker to handle the passing on offense.

All 3 above trades have the advantage of being able to be done immediately.

If that failed then I'd offer Walker + L8 for Kidd and Zo. This has to wait until August 24th to be finalized. This offers NJ the most savings. I'd still add a 1st rounder + $3 mil to make it work.

I'd try and buy Zo out and make him a coach. Mavs need a good big man coach. Cubes could pay him the same money and save because it wouldn't be subject to the luxary tax. I think Zo could earn his money as a big man and defensive coach.

Mavs have a slight edge in that this is one of the places that Kidd wants to come to. We should be wearing out the phones with NJ.



I absolutely abhor the idea of chasing this deal as you propose. If NJ wants to deal him, and then makes a good offer then sweetens it a bit at a tme, THEN we should lite. Other than that, yck.

His contract is nasty if he is healthy. I am skeptical that any team (even Dallas) would take the risk without major sweeteners from NJ. This is not the Kidd you know. If he takes a couple yrs to recover, then Harris will be ready and Kidd will be 34, with a jillion dollar deal. Cant trade him, dont need him, he is old.

You guys are in love with Kidd in he past. That guy is gone, whether you realize it or not.

The idea that "this is only a knee, he'll probably be okay or almost as good" is absurd. Even the docs dont now. This is RADICAL and EXPERIMENTAL and HOPE type stuff. And no player has yet recovered fully. ZERO.

PE, let's say that we get Kidd for my best offer of Walker + L8 + 1st round draft pick (probably no lower than low 20's at best) + $3 mil. That's not giving up one hell of a lot of useful talent to the mavs. What it is doing is risking a hell of a lot of dollars by Cubes. Especially since we're taking on Zo's contract. So, yes there is some risk, but not a lot of talent risk. Sure we could trade those guys for some other talent, but it's doubtful that we'd get anywhere near the potential of a 80% Kidd. This is a new surgery, few have gone through it and returned successfully near what they were. But players haver returned and played. All of the other players were injured more than Kidd. So it doesn't automatically mean that he won't return. It's a risk, but a risk with one hell of a payoff and the cost isn't that high except in dollars. Still if I'm Cubes I'm talking about doing the deal. Sure though I want kidd examed by my doctors before making it official. And remember if we do the Walker + L8 deal, it can't happen until Aug. 24th. We'd know much better then how Kidd is coming along on his recovery.

LRB
07-31-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein

Originally posted by: LRB
I don't think that we have to nor should we give up JHo to get Kidd. If Kidd is forcing his way out, and it appears that this may be the case, then NJ can't reasonably expect to get equal talent value for Kidd. Kidd is injured, and while IMO he'll be able to compete again this is far from certain. He has a monster contract that few teams would be willing to absorb. IMO Portland would be one of the few teams willing to compete for Kidd and able to do so.

I'd start by offering Walker straight up for Kidd. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. Former all-star at a position NJ needs with expiring contract so they can dump injured Kidd's contract and rebuild. Walker is also younger and can be resigned on the cheap.

If that failed then I'd offer Walker + TAW for Kidd and Zo. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. TAW's salary unlike Zo's will be paid for insurance should NJ elect not to use TAW. Lots of $savings for NJ and possibly a useful player for useless Zo.

If NJ balks totally I'd follow with Walker + Delk for Kidd and Zo. Then add a 1st round pick and $3 mil if not accepted immediately. Delk is a useful player who is a combo guard and can play some PG especially with Wallker to handle the passing on offense.

All 3 above trades have the advantage of being able to be done immediately.

If that failed then I'd offer Walker + L8 for Kidd and Zo. This has to wait until August 24th to be finalized. This offers NJ the most savings. I'd still add a 1st rounder + $3 mil to make it work.

I'd try and buy Zo out and make him a coach. Mavs need a good big man coach. Cubes could pay him the same money and save because it wouldn't be subject to the luxary tax. I think Zo could earn his money as a big man and defensive coach.

Mavs have a slight edge in that this is one of the places that Kidd wants to come to. We should be wearing out the phones with NJ.



I absolutely abhor the idea of chasing this deal as you propose. If NJ wants to deal him, and then makes a good offer then sweetens it a bit at a tme, THEN we should lite. Other than that, yck.

His contract is nasty if he is healthy. I am skeptical that any team (even Dallas) would take the risk without major sweeteners from NJ. This is not the Kidd you know. If he takes a couple yrs to recover, then Harris will be ready and Kidd will be 34, with a jillion dollar deal. Cant trade him, dont need him, he is old.

You guys are in love with Kidd in he past. That guy is gone, whether you realize it or not.

The idea that "this is only a knee, he'll probably be okay or almost as good" is absurd. Even the docs dont now. This is RADICAL and EXPERIMENTAL and HOPE type stuff. And no player has yet recovered fully. ZERO.

PE, let's say that we get Kidd for my best offer of Walker + L8 + 1st round draft pick (probably no lower than low 20's at best) + $3 mil. That's not giving up one hell of a lot of useful talent to the mavs. What it is doing is risking a hell of a lot of dollars by Cubes. Especially since we're taking on Zo's contract. So, yes there is some risk, but not a lot of talent risk. Sure we could trade those guys for some other talent, but it's doubtful that we'd get anywhere near the potential of a 80% Kidd. This is a new surgery, few have gone through it and returned successfully near what they were. But players haver returned and played. All of the other players were injured more than Kidd. So it doesn't automatically mean that he won't return. It's a risk, but a risk with one hell of a payoff and the cost isn't that high except in dollars. Still if I'm Cubes I'm talking about doing the deal. Sure though I want kidd examed by my doctors before making it official. And remember if we do the Walker + L8 deal, it can't happen until Aug. 24th. We'd know much better then how Kidd is coming along on his recovery.

chumdawg
07-31-2004, 02:20 PM
I have a gut feeling that Walker for Kidd straight up has a very good chance of happening...at the trade deadline.

GIGEMLAW
07-31-2004, 02:34 PM
I think if Kidd does want to be traded. The Mavs should do the same thing that did in the Van Exel trade. By making Kidd's last one or two years of his contract be a team option with a buyout, I would consider adding for than merely cap relief to the trade, such as a draft pick. But, no way I give up my youth in the process.

A deal like Walker/future lottery protected 1st rounder for Kidd straight up works for me if we can get Kidd to at least alter his contract in the last year to a team option.

DevinHarriswillstart
07-31-2004, 02:54 PM
I say trade for him only so that SA or Lakers don't get him.

Poindexter Einstein
07-31-2004, 04:21 PM
LRB ... you are willing to toss over $200M (100+, double due to LT) in the trash, for 80% of Kidd?

Sorry man, but that is nutty.

And here's where you make me roll my eyes - you have Cuban tossing in $3M to the deal!!!!

And a #1.

The more I think about it, this deal makes LESS sense. By the time Kidd is healthy, and at his 80%, it is a year or two from now. Harris is ready. And Kidd is 33 or 34. And you are stuck for another 60M+ times two. You think a 34 year old Kidd at 80% will be an all-star? I doubt it. Kidd at80% is average. Take a look at Hardaway, who is mediocre at 85% yet was the best in the NBA at 100%.

Only a NJ fan would propose such a deal.

endtroducing
07-31-2004, 04:26 PM
john stockton was a pretty good player that played for a long time. remember him?

devin harris is not ready. he's not dwayne wade. if we run harris out there, he'll be eaten alive.

Misfit Mav
07-31-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein

The more I think about it, this deal makes LESS sense. By the time Kidd is healthy, and at his 80%, it is a year or two from now. Harris is ready. And Kidd is 33 or 34. And you are stuck for another 60M+ times two. You think a 34 year old Kidd at 80% will be an all-star? I doubt it. Kidd at80% is average. Take a look at Hardaway, who is mediocre at 85% yet was the best in the NBA at 100%.


I'm just not sure why you are so convinced that Kidd's career is in so much jeopardy. Kidd had optional surgery to ameliorate pain and discomfort in his knee. He settled on the surgery after trying massage therapy and other treatments. He was able to play through the pain, and play well. I don't think he would have opted for surgery if it was going to jeopordize his career or keep him out of commision for a year or two, as you are suggesting.

Is this just speculation? Do you have some information about Kidd being out for a year or two, or needing a year or two to get back into playing condition?

Joey
07-31-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by: DevinHarriswillstart
I say trade for him only so that SA or Lakers don't get him.

That's the truth. If you look at it from that perspective, LA or SA would potentially become major contenders of which SA already is. The Mavs really have nothing to lose at the moment, except money. If Cubes is okay with that, then so am I.

BTW-If this trade goes through, the naysayers now will be saying what a genius Cubes is. If it falls through, the Go-get-ers of now will be talking about how stupid of an idea it was. Mark can't win for losing. However, I hated when they broke up the 3-J's and I'd love to see all 3 of them back here. But if we can only get one, then I'm all for it.

What is it they say about Shaq, that his skills have deminished over the past few seasons? In comparison to whom? Himself. an 80% Shaq is better than most 5's in the league. The same concept goes for J-Kidd...an 80% Kidd is better than ANY of the scrubs left at the PG position on the free agency that would sign the vet-min. Who would you rather have, Damon Jones? Bob Sura? or Jason Kidd?

We all agree that Walk has to go and what better way to replace an unusable cog for the Mavs than with Kidd? Walker is talented and has all-star potential, just not for the Mavs. We need a pure point. The gamble as to wether or not he is 100% is a moot point when we want to rid ourselves of Walk anyway. The pay-off potential is exponentially higher than that of the risk!

Poindexter Einstein
07-31-2004, 04:55 PM
MM ..this was not minor surgery, no matter how they are spinning it. Microfracture has serious downside. So yes his ability is not a slam dunk, far from it.

If massage would help, NO DOC would do this surgery.

V
07-31-2004, 05:24 PM
PE -- the surgery was performed on a non weight bearing area of the knee. You're simply wrong that no athlete has fully recovered from the procedure. True, some recover better than others but it all depends on the complexity of the microfracture surgery.

I highly doubt you're a doctor so I will inform you.

The procedure entails 'punching' holes into the surfaces of the bones. The purpose of this is to get blood to flow to the surface of the bones so that they can grow fibrocartilage……a rough substitute for the original, cushioning cartilage that no longer exists there. Basically tiny holes or "microfractures" are created in the bone area where the cartilage is defective. The underlying bone marrow seeps out through the holes and becomes part of the blood clot that forms over the area. The marrow contains stem cells, which have the ability to transform themselves into any cells in the body. When stimulated by continuous motion, these stem cells form a replacement "fibrocartilage" between the bare-bone surfaces of the knee.

The rehab. protocol for a weight bearing injury typically requires eight weeks on crutches and extensive rehabilitation before resuming "normal" activities together with use of a Continuous Passive Motion (CPM) machine for several weeks weeks.

In difficult cases the surgery is only half of it. The rehab is really ugly because you're on crutches for eight weeks. Your muscles atrophy down to nothing. At night, you're in the CPM machine where you have to lie flat on your back. The machine moves your leg up and down in a continuous motion, two or three times a minute, all night long. Some have to sleep with the thing on every night for seven or eight weeks, six hours a night.

After the CPM the motion machine is supplemented by workouts on a stationary bike or aqua jogging in a swimming pool. At eight or ten weeks you're allowed to begin weight training to rebuild the strength and muscle definition in the leg ... it's a regimen athletes often continue fro months after surgery. Webber et al went through a similar rehab.

HOWEVER - The prognosis for a non weight bearing injury is much better.

While microfracture surgeries typically take a long time to come back from, Kidd's procedure was performed on a non-weight-bearing area. By nature of where the surgery was performed, the recovery would be much quicker than a normal microfracture surgery. A three-month recovery is not unreasonable. I don't know the details of the Kidd situation but I would assume the surgery occured near the the patella - a non-weight bearing bone (unlike the chondyle or tibia). Kidd would be locked in a certain position in a brace but he would not have to be on crutches for weeks & weeks.

You're right that he might not return at 100% of his former level. But that would concern me more if we were talking about a guy like McDyess who relied on his athleticism to be successful. Kidd is in an etirely different league from McDyess. Kidd sees the game a different speed so he can create action rather than having to respond to it. Those skills will not be diminished at all.

If Walker, Howard, and number 1 is what it requires to get Kidd back to Dallas then I say "get it done; Get Kidd in here."

rakesh.s
07-31-2004, 05:36 PM
i think the mavs will probably offer antoine walker+a spare for kidd but nj won't take it

instead i think they'll accept something like this from the lakers

L.A. Lakers trades: PG Gary Payton (14.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 5.5 apg in 34.5 minutes)
SF Lamar Odom (17.1 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 4.1 apg in 37.5 minutes)
L.A. Lakers receives: PG Jason Kidd (15.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 9.2 apg in 36.5 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -16.2 ppg, -7.5 rpg, and -0.4 apg.

New Jersey trades: PG Jason Kidd (15.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 9.2 apg in 36.5 minutes)
New Jersey receives: PG Gary Payton (14.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 5.5 apg in 82 games)
SF Lamar Odom (17.1 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 4.1 apg in 80 games)
Change in team outlook: +16.2 ppg, +7.5 rpg, and +0.4 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to L.A. Lakers and New Jersey being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. L.A. Lakers and New Jersey had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

******************

sign malone and let grant come off the bench to backup floppy and malone
lakers will look like this

pg - kidd
sg - kobe
sf - george
pf - malone
c - floppy

add a couple wing players like ron mercer and bob sura and they have a pretty good team

dude1394
07-31-2004, 08:07 PM
I think the lakers would be nutty to give up odom. I believe that is who they want.

u2sarajevo
07-31-2004, 09:16 PM
In the words of the modern day Starsky.... "Do it!" (with apologies to Ben Stiller)

LRB
07-31-2004, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
LRB ... you are willing to toss over $200M (100+, double due to LT) in the trash, for 80% of Kidd?

Sorry man, but that is nutty.

And here's where you make me roll my eyes - you have Cuban tossing in $3M to the deal!!!!

And a #1.

The more I think about it, this deal makes LESS sense. By the time Kidd is healthy, and at his 80%, it is a year or two from now. Harris is ready. And Kidd is 33 or 34. And you are stuck for another 60M+ times two. You think a 34 year old Kidd at 80% will be an all-star? I doubt it. Kidd at80% is average. Take a look at Hardaway, who is mediocre at 85% yet was the best in the NBA at 100%.

Only a NJ fan would propose such a deal.

1st of all I'd buyout Mourning to keep from having to pay double for his salary. But even if this wouldn't work, I'm willing to bet on a player who's the best at his position in the NBA, a position that we're hurting at. Kidd is a true two way player, unlike Nash. But I'd definitely have the Mav docs check Kidd over before finalizing the deal.

However I do think that you've overhyped how serious this operation is and how threatening to Kidd's career it is. Kidd gives us a great chance at a championship. That's more than worth the risk to me.

Joey
07-31-2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by: rakesh.s
i think the mavs will probably offer antoine walker+a spare for kidd but nj won't take it

instead i think they'll accept something like this from the lakers

L.A. Lakers trades: PG Gary Payton (14.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 5.5 apg in 34.5 minutes)
SF Lamar Odom (17.1 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 4.1 apg in 37.5 minutes)
L.A. Lakers receives: PG Jason Kidd (15.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 9.2 apg in 36.5 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -16.2 ppg, -7.5 rpg, and -0.4 apg.

New Jersey trades: PG Jason Kidd (15.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 9.2 apg in 36.5 minutes)
New Jersey receives: PG Gary Payton (14.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 5.5 apg in 82 games)
SF Lamar Odom (17.1 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 4.1 apg in 80 games)
Change in team outlook: +16.2 ppg, +7.5 rpg, and +0.4 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to L.A. Lakers and New Jersey being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. L.A. Lakers and New Jersey had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

******************

sign malone and let grant come off the bench to backup floppy and malone
lakers will look like this

pg - kidd
sg - kobe
sf - george
pf - malone
c - floppy

add a couple wing players like ron mercer and bob sura and they have a pretty good team


Dude...no way this happens. Kobe WANTS TO BE THE MAN. He had the Lake Show trade away the best 5 EVER so that he could be the man. J-Kidd had his coach fired just because. Do you think Kobe would allow another player on HIS roster that wields that much power? No way. Besides, I think Lamar was one of the main reasons the Lakers did the Miami deal...besides sending Shaq to the East. But I like the fact that you aren't giving everything to the Mavs...we have a tendancy to do that on this board (especially me).

Poindexter Einstein
07-31-2004, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by: V
PE -- the surgery was performed on a non weight bearing area of the knee. You're simply wrong that no athlete has fully recovered from the procedure. True, some recover better than others but it all depends on the complexity of the microfracture surgery.


V........

Nice synopsis of the surgery. Nothing I didnt know, but well done nevertheless. Were you implying that you are a doctor?

Now my criticisms -

(1) "on a non weight bearing area of the knee" ....... That is a real nice "spin" (by the docs) on what Kidd is doing. But defining any part of the leg as "non weight bearing" is pushing it.

(2) Fibrocartilage is not anywhere as good as the real thing - it is both less strong and inclined to be exuberant in its growth. (thus tissue in wrong places, etc)

(2) "You're simply wrong that no athlete has fully recovered from the process" ...I truly doubt your words

But I will let you prove me wrong. Name ONE (just one, out of all who have resorted to this) who have returned to their prior level. I have heard of many who have tried, and ZERO who got back to 100%, ever.

(3) Your statement "If Walker, Howard, and number 1 is what it requires to get Kidd back to Dallas then I say "get it done; Get Kidd in here" exhibits a naivete about such surgery that makes me think you look it up rather than being there. Nothing wrong with doing researh - but the docs speak with far less assurance than you throw off. The reality is THEY DONT HAVE A CLUE how well he will do. This is not a cut, a yawn, a few months, and a patched up all-star. You just dont know- cause they dont.

(4) "You're right that he might not return at 100% of his former level. But that would concern me more if we were talking about a guy like McDyess who relied on his athleticism to be successful. Kidd is in an etirely different league from McDyess."

Your basketball scouting: this is one I will say you missed badly on. Kidd has good awareness,yep, like you say. But if you do your homework (like you did on the surgery nfo) you will see that Kidd by most accounts is (was) the fastest player in the league from end line to end line. In fact, the opinion has long been that he can DRIBBLE from end to end faster than most players can run. That is ATHLETICISM and it is a major part of why he is a star. He forces defensive players into decisions at a higher speed than others do.

In addition, your concept is that atheticism isnt very important. I disagree 100%. It is far more vital than non-players can recognize. The stars excel because they are superior athletes and ALSO think the game. Take away the physical superiority and they lag.

One more point, and this one is crucial - the same things you are spouting about this surgery have been said every time about the others who had it. He will recover, he doesnt depend on athleticism, etc - then they came back and were not the same, cause athleticism DOES matter, more than you know.

Kidd is a HIGH RISK. And what is worse, I dont see how his shedule fits the Mavs needs. If he recovers to some level, it will not be early season. But that is when the Mavs need PG help.

Misfit Mav
07-31-2004, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
But I will let you prove me wrong. Name ONE (just one, out of all who have resorted to this) who have returned to their prior level. I have heard of many who have tried, and ZERO who got back to 100%, ever.


I believe this injury/surgery is similar to that of Chris Webber. Obviously, Duncan came out of it quite well.


Spurs' Duncan Has Knee Surgery

May 25, 2000

SAN ANTONIO (AP) - Tim Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs had surgery Wednesday on his left knee, which had sidelined him as the defending NBA championships were eliminated in the first round of this year's playoffs.

The procedure, called a partial lateral menisectomy, was deemed a success by team officials. Dr. David Schmidt, the team physician, performed the operation.

``It went great,'' said Spurs coach Gregg Popovich, adding that after about six to eight weeks of recovery Duncan should begin returning to ``top-caliber play.''

It was not immediately known whether Duncan would be able to participate on the U.S. team in the Summer Olympics, Popovich said.

Duncan tore cartilage in his left knee on April 11 as he fell awkwardly after a dunk attempt in a game against the Sacramento Kings. He missed the final four games of the Spurs' regular season because of the injury, then missed all of San Antonio's playoff games.

Misfit Mav
07-31-2004, 11:10 PM
Also, I'm no doctor, but if we're just talking about arthoscopic surgery to fix nagging knee pain, it is very common in the NBA. Some of the players who have had it recently include: Matt Harpring, Sam Dalembert,
Alvin Williams, and our own Jerry Stackhouse. I wouldn't think so many players would opt for this kind of surgery if it was career threatening.

But again, I'm no doctor, so I don't know the specifics of these procedures.

mavsfanforever
07-31-2004, 11:30 PM
partial lateral menisectomy is the same surgery Penny hardaway had. If you look at numbers, its like only Duncan was fully able to recover from it. That makes it 1 out of 6 players. However, Kidd was never a great shooter and was able to play injured whereas Webber could not even walk.

FilthyFinMavs
07-31-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by: endtroducing
john stockton was a pretty good player that played for a long time. remember him?

devin harris is not ready. he's not dwayne wade. if we run harris out there, he'll be eaten alive.

No one knows what Devin is. IMO, Marquis and Josh came ready last season. I was listneing to someone to someone on ESPN radio I forget who but it was a columnist from ESPN magazine and he says out of all the picks taken in the draft Harris is the most ready which has alot to do with what he has surrounding him. You never know. Harris could be ready he could be not but you definately can't say he is or is not without watching him play atleast a game in the NBA. So far he hasn't.

EricaLubarsky
07-31-2004, 11:33 PM
Endtroducing must be an elite NBA scout. Any one else would feel foolish saying such things

FilthyFinMavs
07-31-2004, 11:39 PM
Yea, I believe Kidd has the same injury as Chris Webber so it's definately no slam dunk to coming back. However, if I could get Kidd in here for Walker i'd jump on it. Walker doesn't want to be here and he doesn't fit. I mean I don't want to discredit Walker's play last seaosn but you're basically giving up nothing for something in a way. Similiar to the Fortson and Booth deal. Sure Fortson was a fine player but he dind't fit this team and at best he would get 10 minutes a game last season. We get Booth for him who can really help us. Same thing applies here. I shut talks if they even start to discuss some of our youth players. I don't know why fans think Josh Howard is some throw in. Every deal I see people are just throwing him in as if he's nothing. We're not in this to benefit the Nets. Nets want to get rid of Kidd's salary fine. We give you Walker's 14 mill/1 year contract. That's plenty to get rid of a guy you no longer want.

FilthyFinMavs
07-31-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Endtroducing must be an elite NBA scout. Any one else would feel foolish saying such things

And even scouts at times don't know a thing. How do you explain Marquis being undrafted or Josh being the 29th pick in the draft? And as far as Devin not being a Dwyane Wade well if I remember correctly no one even knew Wade would have a season like he did last season. No one knows till 82 games have been played in the season.

mavsfanforever
07-31-2004, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Endtroducing must be an elite NBA scout. Any one else would feel foolish saying such things

And even scouts at times don't know a thing. How do you explain Marquis being undrafted or Josh being the 29th pick in the draft? And as far as Devin not being a Dwyane Wade well if I remember correctly no one even knew Wade would have a season like he did last season. No one knows till 82 games have been played in the season.


Everyone knew Wade was talented. Only reason it was not paid attention to was because of Lebron and melo.

freestyle
07-31-2004, 11:47 PM
I'm excited at the thought of watching Harris learn the ropes this year with significant playing time and seeing whether JHo has a breakout year after showing himself as a standout player in the summer leagues. I'm not as excited at the prospect of seeing JKidd on the downside of his career out there hobbling around after microfracture surgery.

Misfit are you sure the guys you list had 'microfracture' surgery rather than just knee surgery? Here is what an article on JKidds surgery had to say about the technique in general and on JKidd in particular (http://www.silive.com/nets/advance/index.ssf?/base/Sports/1088776257283870.xml):

"Most microfracture surgeries on NBA players result in at least 8 to 10 months of missed playing time. Kerry Kittles missed an entire season, Penny Hardaway missed all but four games and Chris Webber missed 59 games after their respective microfracture surgeries."

"Allan Houston had it 14 months ago, and was never right throughout the 2003-04 season, missing 32 games plus the playoffs."

"Some athletes, such as Denver running back Terrell Davis, had to retire after microfracture surgery did not foster enough new cartilage growth to stop the bones from rubbing together."

"But those surgeries were performed on weight-bearing areas of the knee at the end of the femur. Because Kidd's surgery was done on a non-weight-bearing area, it will receive significantly less pounding, which speeds up the healing process. "

In other words, this isn't your average knee surgery. I also agree with PE that the doctors don't really know how quickly it will take JKidd to be ready to play or whether he will ever be 100%. Of course they are going to be optimistic.

Misfit Mav
07-31-2004, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by: freestyle

Misfit are you sure the guys you list had 'microfracture' surgery rather than just knee surgery? Here is what an article on JKidds surgery had to say about the technique in general and on JKidd in particular (http://www.silive.com/nets/advance/index.ssf?/base/Sports/1088776257283870.xml):

"Most microfracture surgeries on NBA players result in at least 8 to 10 months of missed playing time. Kerry Kittles missed an entire season, Penny Hardaway missed all but four games and Chris Webber missed 59 games after their respective microfracture surgeries."

"Allan Houston had it 14 months ago, and was never right throughout the 2003-04 season, missing 32 games plus the playoffs."

"Some athletes, such as Denver running back Terrell Davis, had to retire after microfracture surgery did not foster enough new cartilage growth to stop the bones from rubbing together."

"But those surgeries were performed on weight-bearing areas of the knee at the end of the femur. Because Kidd's surgery was done on a non-weight-bearing area, it will receive significantly less pounding, which speeds up the healing process. "

In other words, this isn't your average knee surgery. I also agree with PE that the doctors don't really know how quickly it will take JKidd to be ready to play or whether he will ever be 100%. Of course they are going to be optimistic.

Good find there-- I found many cases of arthoscopic knee surgery, but it sounds from your article like that is definitely different than what Kidd had. Although I do think Duncan did recover from a similarly serious procedure.

V
07-31-2004, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein[quote]

(1) "on a non weight bearing area of the knee" ....... That is a real nice "spin" (by the docs) on what Kidd is doing. But defining any part of the leg as "non weight bearing" is pushing it.



Kidd likely had a small patellofemoral defect. The patella is non-weight-bearing.

Don't be so arrogant, Einstein.

EricaLubarsky
08-01-2004, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by: mavsfanforever

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Endtroducing must be an elite NBA scout. Any one else would feel foolish saying such things

And even scouts at times don't know a thing. How do you explain Marquis being undrafted or Josh being the 29th pick in the draft? And as far as Devin not being a Dwyane Wade well if I remember correctly no one even knew Wade would have a season like he did last season. No one knows till 82 games have been played in the season.


Everyone knew Wade was talented. Only reason it was not paid attention to was because of Lebron and melo.

Everyone knows that Harris is talented, too. He was top 8 in every draft simulation.

mavsfanforever
08-01-2004, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

Originally posted by: mavsfanforever

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Endtroducing must be an elite NBA scout. Any one else would feel foolish saying such things

And even scouts at times don't know a thing. How do you explain Marquis being undrafted or Josh being the 29th pick in the draft? And as far as Devin not being a Dwyane Wade well if I remember correctly no one even knew Wade would have a season like he did last season. No one knows till 82 games have been played in the season.


Everyone knew Wade was talented. Only reason it was not paid attention to was because of Lebron and melo.

Everyone knows that Harris is talented, too. He was top 8 in every draft simulation.

all I am saying is that it should not be a surprise if Harris plays well.

Poindexter Einstein
08-01-2004, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by: V

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein[quote]

(1) "on a non weight bearing area of the knee" ....... That is a real nice "spin" (by the docs) on what Kidd is doing. But defining any part of the leg as "non weight bearing" is pushing it.


Kidd likely had a small patellofemoral defect. The patella is non-weight-bearing.

"likely had a small patellofemoral defect" - so you have decided with no direct info what his problem was, for purposes of this discussion? Sheeeesh, how silly. And regardless, so what. Anything in the leg, particualrly the knee, is weight-related unless you are trying to paint a positive light on things for the paying public.

The docs are spinning this into a rosy pic, and they MIGHT hit a home run - but even THEY dont know yet. So I am certain that you (a layman, I presume? your pompous sounding words forgot to include a reply to that, for some reason i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif) dont know he is going to be anywhere close to 100% either.

A defect - makes it sound minor and routine. But NO ONE would go for this type of surgery with a minor defect. It is too risky, given the track record. (You dont have reconstructive arm surgery to correct a hangnail or remove a wart, do you? Of course not.)

This is an EXTREME form of knee surgery. Period. (Any procedure where the "norm" is that the player is no longer the same, is high risk. Period.) Using medical terminology doesnt lessen the reality of the HIGH RISK here. Sorry.

EricaLubarsky
08-01-2004, 12:29 AM
although this thread is supposedly about Kidd I'll continue the Harris rant.

I won't be surprised if he averages 16ppg in 30mpg, but I also won't be surprised if he averages 10-12 minutes. He has the size, the maturity, and the skills to be an NBA player already. He needs conditioning like nearly everyone who comes out of College and High School (because of how sparse the schedule is), but he's ready. Conditioning will take care of itself by the end of this season, and muscle mass will come over the next couple years.

V
08-01-2004, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
He has the size, the maturity, and the skills to be an NBA player already.

Actually the thing that concerns me about Harris the most is his size. I'm sure he'll be fine but he needs to add some bulk. He really looks like a kid.

FineCubanCigar
08-01-2004, 01:48 AM
it is BS, I keep saying this, but since no one has picked up on it yet . . . Pavel required next years #1 pick. . . THEREFORE WE CANNOT OFFER A NUMBER 1 pick in ANY TRADE due to league rules.

EricaLubarsky
08-01-2004, 01:52 AM
2007

V
08-01-2004, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein

Originally posted by: V

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein[quote]

(1) "on a non weight bearing area of the knee" ....... That is a real nice "spin" (by the docs) on what Kidd is doing. But defining any part of the leg as "non weight bearing" is pushing it.


Kidd likely had a small patellofemoral defect. The patella is non-weight-bearing.

A defect - makes it sound minor and routine. But NO ONE would go for this type of surgery with a minor defect. It is too risky, given the track record. (You dont have reconstructive arm surgery to correct a hangnail or remove a wart, do you? Of course not.)


Microfracture is a surgical technique that was developed to treat chondral defects, which are damaged areas of articular cartilage of the knee. It is a common procedure used to treat patients with full thickness damage to the articular cartilage that goes all the way down to the bone.

Poindexter Einstein
08-01-2004, 03:00 AM
Nets official comment: "It's called 'microfracture surgery,' and after Jason Kidd underwent it on his left knee Thursday in New York, the Nets declared it 'successful' and indicated there's 'no timetable' for his return."

Another comment in the NY papers on the surgery: "Jason Kidd underwent successful micro-fracture surgery on his left knee yesterday. However, there is no telling how long he'll need to recover or if he'll be able to return to his All-NBA form."
-----------------------

Microfracture

This technique encourages the growth of new cartilage into a defect. This is a well-accepted technique that is a common procedure for patients with damage through the full thickness of articular cartilage, all the way down to the bone. Using an arthroscopic procedure, the base of the damaged area is scraped to create a bleeding bed of bone. Blood is essential for healing. Small holes are then "picked" into the defect with a special instrument, allowing blood vessels and bone marrow cells to be in contact with the exposed cartilage defect. Bone marrow then fills the defect promoting the formation of a clot, which will eventually mature into firm scar cartilage. Research has shown that this tissue is a hybrid cartilage. Although this newly grown cartilage is durable and can function for many years, it may not have the same durability or strength as the original hyaline cartilage that existed before the injury.

What types of complications may occur?

None of the above procedures are perfect, but each one may be helpful for patients with painful articular cartilage defects. Although the results have not been evaluated in controlled trials, these techniques have been shown to be safe and effective with positive results in the 70-80% range. The success rate seems to be time dependent. Some patients may have relief from symptoms for a short time, but find that symptoms gradually reoccur. Long-term results are still not available for some of the procedures. Joint stiffness, infection, and continued pain may sometimes follow surgery, as can happen with any major knee operation.

Microfracture

This procedure involves the growth and remodeling of cartilage and a restrictive period of rehabilitation and crutch use for 6-8 weeks, with only touch-down weight bearing of approximately 30 pounds permitted. Continuous passive motion (CPM) is suggested by some physicians. Recovery to full activity that is pain free may require 6 months or longer.

A person with cartilage damage should avoid high impact activities, such as prolonged running or jumping sports. These are very hard on the knee and can speed the progression of cartilage damage.
-------------------------------------------


Basketball is a running and jumping sport. That accounts for the historic lack of "success" (defined as restoration to prior ability) for such surgery with NBA players. That would explain why the original symptoms reoccur rapidly, or never really go away, after such surgery. And the "new cartilage" is even more fragile than the original.

[Tim Duncan's surgery, referenced in someones post above, was the most minor type of knee surgery that athletes undergo, and far from what Kidd is going through.]

V
08-01-2004, 10:50 AM
You're lumping all microfracture procedures into the same category, Einstein. It's a common mistake so I will try again.

You've made your point about Kidd. You want to steal him for a bag of beans on the pretense that he may never recover from the surgery. You might be right... but the specific rehabilitation program for each patient following a microfracture will vary depending upon the the location of the defect, the size of the defect, and whether any other surgical procedure, such as an anterior cruciate ligament reconstruction, was done at the same time as microfracture.

In Kidd's situation we know two of the three key factors. The location has been reported as "non-weight-bearing." That means the patella (kneecap) ... The size is unknown... and doctors have not reported any reconstructive surgery. If the defect was small these factors represent the best possible case.

Most frequently after microfracture has been performed on the patella complications are limited to mild transient pain. (Small changes in the articular surface of this patellofemoral joint may produce a "gritty" sensation, particularly when a patient discontinues use of the knee brace and begins normal weightbearing through a full range of motion ... but patients rarely have pain once the start sorking out ... and the grating sensation typically resolves on its own in a few days or weeks.

We can only hope Kidd's surgery will follow the typical course.

Like with any medical procedue there are some unknowns. Of course, life is full of unknowns too. Kidd could decide to retire & go on tour with Lenny Kravitz, he could take up baseball, or he could get run over by a bus. We just don't know with 100% certainty...

ddh33
08-01-2004, 12:38 PM
Good points by both sides and an interesting discussion.

Frankly, I believe Jason Kidd is worth the risk - and there is a risk - although to compare this to Zo is beyond rediculous. Kidd was playing on his knee and playing great while injured. I see no reason why he won't be able to do the same after this surgery. He wasn't carried off the court like Webber or Penny...

And the other thing that has been bothering is the qouting of newspapers as though they are gospel. While one person qoutes one paper indicating Kidd is going to recover, someone else qoutes another paper that says he won't recover. Guess what? Sensationalism sells. I wouldn't worry about a paper saying Kidd will never play again the same way I wouldn't trade for him without looking at him just because one paper said he would be fine. They are newspapers!

Poindexter Einstein
08-01-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by: V

You've made your point about Kidd. You want to steal him for a bag of beans on the pretense that he may never recover from the surgery. You might be right... but the specific rehabilitation program for each patient following a microfracture will vary depending upon the the location of the defect, the size of the defect, and whether any other surgical procedure, such as an anterior cruciate ligament reconstruction, was done at the same time as microfracture.

In Kidd's situation we know two of the three key factors. The location has been reported as "non-weight-bearing." That means the patella (kneecap) ... The size is unknown... and doctors have not reported any reconstructive surgery. If the defect was small these factors represent the best possible case.

Most frequently after microfracture has been performed on the patella complications are limited to mild transient pain. (Small changes in the articular surface of this patellofemoral joint may produce a "gritty" sensation, particularly when a patient discontinues use of the knee brace and begins normal weightbearing through a full range of motion ... but patients rarely have pain once the start sorking out ... and the grating sensation typically resolves on its own in a few days or weeks.

We can only hope Kidd's surgery will follow the typical course.

Like with any medical procedue there are some unknowns. Of course, life is full of unknowns too. Kidd could decide to retire & go on tour with Lenny Kravitz, he could take up baseball, or he could get run over by a bus. We just don't know with 100% certainty...

Your arrogant tone of trying to "educate" me is repulsive, franky. I can read and comprehend without your nonsense, and I understand this stuff as well as you do, so what. I just dont see a need to try to toss out long irrelevant "medical explanations" to try to make my point look more convincing. But if you want to put on a surgical mask on your icon to try to pose as Mr Doc Expert, I will laugh at what a poser you are but go on.

But such a tone doesnt make you right, so I will respond anyhow.

Maybe you represent the Nets, trying to sell him high. But I am not "wanting to steal him for a bag of beans on the pretense that he may never recover from the surgery" and your thought that such is my posture indicates you dont live in the real world - my objections are not an attempt to drive down the price, cause it is absurd to postulate I could have any effect on the price in any way.

My objections are reactions to those who say "lets go get Kidd, and pay whatever he was worth last year" under the assumpton that you still get last years player. Now MAYBE you do, but the odds (and this is a risk game) seem to say MORE LIKELY you dont.

You are the most impassioned advocate for NJ geting top dollar for Kidd, and you trot out all this pseudo-med lingo, but even you slide little disclaimers in, that are then overlooked. From the last post, you use the following terms:

You might be right
will vary depending upon
has been reported as
unknown
have not reported any
If
the best possible case.
Most frequently
may produce
rarely
typically
in a few days or weeks
We can only hope
there are some unknowns
We just don't know

Now what is screaming out in all of that, from you who want to insist that this is no big deal, is layer after layer of uncertainty.

Indeed, if you read the DOCTORS reports who are actually there and who have seen the condition and know what is REALLY going on (rather than playing psuedo-doc on the net), they are laced wth uncertainty and maybes.

Combine that with the spotty and rather dismal history of such procedures in NBA players, coupled with Kidds age and monstrous contract and full speed style, and it becomes sheer lunacy to say "go get Kidd, this is no big deal, it is routine, he will be back to all-star form very soon." The very nature of the NBA (running and jumping) is the very thing that real docs say is counter to limiting damage and maxing recuperaton in this type of procedure.

Could Kidd recover? Yep. But this is a major surgery, with major risks, and uncertain results. It may be a year before we know if Kidd will be back and any good again - and then we may learn "he sucks now."

Remember Webber last year? He was supposed to be back by training camp ....then Nov ... then Dec ... then Jan ...then Feb ... then Mar ... And when he finally got on the court, he was tentative. His skills were limited the rest of the season. He has shooting range of course, but has yet to demonstrate any athletic explosiveness in an NBA game.

When will Kidd be ready? They are hoping he will "be back by training camp" - does that sound familiar????

90M (or 180M, doubled, with the LT) for a HEALTHY 31-yr-old NBA player is incredibly risky in itself. Now there is an added layer of danger with the uncertainty in Kidds future. If a team such as Dallas is asked to assume such risk in place of NJ, they (Dallas) should be compensated in an extreme way to do so.

endtroducing
08-01-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Endtroducing must be an elite NBA scout. Any one else would feel foolish saying such things

And even scouts at times don't know a thing. How do you explain Marquis being undrafted or Josh being the 29th pick in the draft? And as far as Devin not being a Dwyane Wade well if I remember correctly no one even knew Wade would have a season like he did last season. No one knows till 82 games have been played in the season.

I can explain why Marquis wasn't drafted: he didn't have a solid position in college...scouts didn't know what do make of him.

it was glaringly obvious that Wade would be a fantastic player, too. he carried an overmatched Marquette team to the final four, and blew up on soon-to-be NBA talent in the process. he's an amazing physical specimen...but Devin Harris isn't...after about 10 pounds of muscle is put on him, and he learns how to make good decisions (after basically being given free reign in the extremely watered down Big Ten), he'll be a good player. but not now.

jayC
08-01-2004, 05:39 PM
Its always about risk vs. reward. Is it worth it to invest in Kidd, who knows? There are two many factors that go into that. But if all things are equal and he has a good to great chance of recovery you have to take that chance.

V
08-01-2004, 05:48 PM
Some people on this board appreciate the information I've provided. If you're not one of them I don't give a damn. Now why don't you just take it easy, Einstein, and please make me a drink of grain alcohol and rainwater, and help yourself to whatever you'd like.

Click here (http://www.fakedrpepper.com/spies08.wav)

grndmstr_c
08-01-2004, 05:50 PM
I love that movie.

V
08-01-2004, 05:52 PM
which one? There are two references in my last post...

jayC
08-02-2004, 01:03 AM
I appreciate the insight provided by V. I'd do it anyway. His contract is probably insured so no harm no foul right. Walker is a cancer, he absolutely has to go and if NJ says that we want Walker its a deal that the mavs have to do. Really all P.E had to say is that I don't think he will ever be the same regardless of the recovery rate.

MavsFanFinley
08-02-2004, 05:58 AM
Could Kidd be a Mav again?

By Art Garcia
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

Jason Kidd, step right up. You're next in line in the Mavericks' version of The Price is Right.

"Price" being the operative word in any discussion involving Kidd, the latest but certainly not the last NBA superstar linked to the Mavs in a trade scenario.

If Kidd does indeed want out of New Jersey, as has been widely speculated, and, if the Nets are willing to move their best player, the Mavs won't have any qualms about jumping into the bidding, provided some serious monetary conditions are met.

The Mavs, according to league sources, aren't about to take on Kidd's enormous contract without dumping some of their own salaries into the Jersey swamps. Because Kidd is owed $90 million over the next five years, simply taking on his contract straight up for Antoine Walker, for example, doesn't make much financial sense.

Otherwise, the Mavs could have signed Steve Nash for $25 million less than the outlay it would take to add Kidd. One team source scoffed at reports suggesting a deal that would send Walker, Josh Howard and a No. 1 draft pick to New Jersey for Kidd.

"Don't bother pursuing that one," the source said.

Kidd is due to be paid $14.8 million in the coming season, while Walker will be making $14.6 million in the last year of his contract. Those salaries are within 15 percent of each other, the league requirement for a trade, but the Mavs also would want to move some of their multiyear contracts.

Their goal would be to break even on a Kidd trade for at least two years. For the Mavs to do so, other players would have to be included, or the Nets would have to agree to take a player or players under a $10.3 million trade exception acquired when they traded Kerry Kittles to the Los Angeles Clippers for a draft pick last week.

The Nets, who recently traded Kenyon Martin for draft picks, are cutting payroll under new ownership.

Among the players the Mavs could look to move are recently acquired Calvin Booth (three years remaining, $19 million), Jerry Stackhouse (three years, $22.5 million), Tariq Abdul-Wahad (three years, $22 million), Tony Delk (two years, $6.5 million) and Christian Laettner (one year, $6.2 million). The Mavs don't appear interested in moving Michael Finley (four years, $66.4 million) in a deal for Kidd.

It's no secret the Mavs are willing to entertain trade discussions when it comes to high-profile players. They pursued Shaquille O'Neal vigorously and remain interested in Toronto's Vince Carter.

Kidd, despite recently undergoing micro-fracture knee surgery and turning 31 this year, would shore up the point guard position, provided he's healthy. He began his career with the Mavs and was the 1994-95 co-Rookie of the Year before being traded to Phoenix early in his third season. He has averaged 9.4 assists per game in his 10-year career.

Without specifically addressing Kidd's situation in New Jersey, Mavs president of basketball operations Donnie Nelson maintained the team's willingness to explore all avenues for improvement.

"All the major names bandied about have some interest," Nelson said. "We have an interest in getting better defensively, making significant upgrades to our roster and giving our young group enough to make a run in the playoffs."

There is some concern within the organization of the effect Kidd would have on Devin Harris' development. After serving as a top-notch tutor for Steve Nash in Phoenix, Kidd would assume the same role for the Mavs' rookie point guard. But if Harris is ready to assume control in a year or two, having Kidd on the roster could stunt his development.

Such a script, however, didn't scare off the San Antonio Spurs last summer. The NBA champs courted Kidd heavily despite having promising young point guard Tony Parker in place. The Spurs believed Kidd and Parker could play together in the backcourt, and the Mavs' coaching staff would try to make a similar pairing work with Kidd and Harris.

A multi-player deal for Kidd also could free up some roster spots. The Mavs have 16 players under contract, not including Avery Johnson. Nelson said players acquired in trades this summer, such as Stackhouse, Laettner and Booth, plus some already on the roster help make blockbuster deals possible.

"These base hits put you in position to hit a grand slam," Nelson said. "There's no such thing as a grand slam until the bases are loaded. If you do the right thing consistently with smaller moves, it makes it easier to do bigger moves.

"Smaller moves also protect against something unforeseen happening, like Nash leaving. If we didn't trade [Antawn] Jamison, we wouldn't have had Devin Harris."

mavsfanforever
08-02-2004, 06:18 AM
If mavs could move one of the players like TAW, Stack that would be awesome.

V
08-02-2004, 08:36 AM
Sounds like Donnie is elephant hunting.

sike
08-02-2004, 09:37 AM
"These base hits put you in position to hit a grand slam," Nelson said. "There's no such thing as a grand slam until the bases are loaded. If you do the right thing consistently with smaller moves, it makes it easier to do bigger moves."
boy, do I love that quote!

also, as to the discussion/catfight between V and PE in several rather long winded, nomenclature challenging, ego driven posts I think in the long run they seem to be somewhat on the same page. Neither want to harm the future of the Mavs by acquiring a player who might be damaged goods and both realize that an even somewhat healthy Kidd make this team a contender…Do we trade away the farm for Kidd? Both would say “no”(though then I’m sure we would have a pissing match to define the word “farm”) Do both readily admit that Jason Kidd COULD be a huge step toward a ring? Both would say “yes”.

In the long run both you guys are wonderful posters who have much insight to offer this forum---and all the girl slaps will avail nothing because we(or at least the people who need to know) will know the truth about Kidd and the extent of his injury/recovery…as ape would say “IN DUE TIME.”
Cuban and the mavs docs will not allow damaged goods to rape this team’s future…I believe that.

V
08-02-2004, 11:03 AM
Well put, Sike.

I don't have a problem with Einstein. Most everyone on this board is capable of drawing their own conclusions about Kidd's surgery - provided they know the facts & likely outcomes. We all know there are risks anytime anyone goes under the knife. I hope my experience in this matter helps others understand the situation more clearly.

So, on to the "farm" debate...

If the Mavs want to breakeven over two years let's look at some scenarios:

Kidd will make $31 million over the next two years so I would look for a combination of players on the Mavs roster who will be owed close to that amount over two years. We'll want to minimize exposure beyond year two in any offer to the Nets. We're limited to about $25 million unless the Mavs will take a player back (Kidd $14.6M + $10M trade exception)

Kidd will make $90 million over the life of his deal... so that's breakeven for the Nets

I will let the capologists do the fact checking but that sounds like

......................2004............2005........ ....2006

Stack................ $7..............$7.5............$8
Laettner........... $6
Wahad .............$6.7...........$7.3............$7.8
Delk...................$3.1..........$3.3
-------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL...............$23..............$18.......... ..$16

Here The Mavs will be sending $41 million over the first two years for Kidd's contract which will pay him $31 million over two years. Huge win financially & talent-wise for the Mavs. Total contracts to the Nets equal $56 million representing $34 million savings over the life of Kidd's deal.

Of course, there's not a poster on this board who wouldn't do that deal. (is there?)

More likely it will take something like this to get conversation started:

......................2004............2005........ ....2006

Walker...............$14
Wahad .............$6.7...........$7.3............$7.8
Delk...................$3.1..........$3.3
-------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL.............$24...........$10.6............$ 7.8

Here the Mavs send $34.6 million in contracts over the next two years in return for $31M the Mavs will have to pay Kidd. This is still a Mavs win financially & they win the talent war too. Total contracts to NJ now equal $42 million total - saving the Nets a whopping $48 million dollars. Would they do that deal? Remember, Ratner is a business man.

Here's my final offer:

......................2004............2005........ ....2006

Walker...............$14
Laettner............$6.1
Delk...................$3.1.............$3.3
-------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL.............$23...........$3.3

Incredible financial oppoortunity for the Nets to turn the organization around immediately but I think the Mavs are giving up too much in this deal. Mavs win on talent but they severely limit their flexibility, they loose both expiring contracts, they loose the financial transaction becasue they don't breakeven over two year... BUT they get their veteran PG.

Lots of things to consider. This is the brave new world of NBA basketball... where breakeven analyses & scouting reports are found on a level playing field.

SeriousSummer
08-02-2004, 12:00 PM
Lucious Harris has an expiring contract & word is the Nets would like to get out of it. If he's including in deal with Jason Kidd & the trade exception, then Dallas could add another $2.5 million (approximately) in salaries over the next two years.

That would make a deal of Walker/Wahad/Laettner or Stackhouse work.

If you add Mourning in for New Jersey, then you could put about another $6 million in the deal as well.

So something like Walker/Wahad/Laettner/Stackhouse (or Delk or Booth or Najera, etc.)
for Kidd/Harris/Mourning might work.

Poindexter Einstein
08-02-2004, 02:46 PM
I cant see Mourning included in any way. That is just more salary the Mavs need to offset - he might as well stay in NJ

SeriousSummer
08-02-2004, 02:58 PM
Some rumors say Mourning wants to try a comeback, but that New Jersey it against it because of monetary reasons. Dallas might be willing to trade TAW for Mourning under those circumstances, since, if able to play effectively, Mourning would be very helpful.

ddh33
08-02-2004, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by: SeriousSummer
Some rumors say Mourning wants to try a comeback, but that New Jersey it against it because of monetary reasons. Dallas might be willing to trade TAW for Mourning under those circumstances, since, if able to play effectively, Mourning would be very helpful.

I would rather stay away from Mourning if possible. If it takes him to do a deal, I would --- BUT only if I could move out more bad salary. I wouldn't want to give talent for Zo as much as I would just rather trade salary.

Depending on Zo's contract situation, getting him could actually help Dallas and Mark. If Zo can't comeback and retires, then Dallas still has to pay his salary...But are they charged with a luxury tax for him? If not, then you can pay Stack 7 million to play (14 after tax) or you can pay Zo 5 million to sit with no luxury tax charge. Best of all, if he retires, he comes off the books after the season. That could give Dallas more flexibility. But I don't know his contractual status...PE help me out.

V2M
08-02-2004, 03:44 PM
Walk/Stack/Wahad/Delk for Kidd/Harris/TE would be a good deal for both teams under the present circumstances. Obviously, we're pillaging NJ talent-wise but given Kidd's contract, health and their urge to cut costs and rebuild, I can't believe they'd get a better deal from another team. It fills the voids left by Martin & Kittles while providing 'em significant salary benefit.

For Mavs, presuming Kidd's at least 80%, this would be a great deal. Lu Harris is a nice 3PT threat when open. We clear up two roster spots. And of course, we'd be a contender for several years to come.

vinnieponte
08-02-2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by: V2M
Walk/Stack/Wahad/Delk for Kidd/Harris/TE would be a good deal for both teams under the present circumstances. Obviously, we're pillaging NJ talent-wise but given Kidd's contract, health and their urge to cut costs and rebuild, I can't believe they'd get a better deal from another team. It fills the voids left by Martin & Kittles while providing 'em significant salary benefit.

For Mavs, presuming Kidd's at least 80%, this would be a great deal. Lu Harris is a nice 3PT threat when open. We clear up two roster spots. And of course, we'd be a contender for several years to come.


Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, yet I have my doubts about any of this happening, It would be a great addtition for our team hoping Mark/Donnie will agree with most of their fans.

ddh33
08-02-2004, 04:00 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I see some problems here.

1. The Nets are about to buy out Lucious and save themselves some more money. Why trade him to take on more salary?
2. The Nets got the TE so they would be under the tax. Why use it and go ack where they were?

Seems to me that if you are going to make it worth the Nets while, you can't just give them junk for the little bit of flexibility they have already acquired.

LRB
08-02-2004, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by: ddh33
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I see some problems here.

1. The Nets are about to buy out Lucious and save themselves some more money. Why trade him to take on more salary?
2. The Nets got the TE so they would be under the tax. Why use it and go ack where they were?

Seems to me that if you are going to make it worth the Nets while, you can't just give them junk for the little bit of flexibility they have already acquired.

ddh I can only think of NJ wanting to save long term in salaries by dumping Kidd's huge salary by taking on a little extra salary in the short term. I don't think that they would do it. Certainly Walker/Stack/Delk/and TAW for Kidd/Harris/and TE is as close to a complete fantasy as I can imagine. Portland could beat this easily by trading Stoudamire or Shareiff straight up for Kidd. Sure NJ wants to dump salary. Sure Kidd wants out. But I don't think that NJ is willing to take on more salary, even in the short term, to dump Kidd. Certainly not if a lot of the salary is garbage that no one wants for the price.

FreshJive
08-02-2004, 04:15 PM
The Spurs believed Kidd and Parker could play together in the backcourt, and the Mavs' coaching staff would try to make a similar pairing work with Kidd and Harris.

Small ball

Bookit
08-02-2004, 04:39 PM
Is Kidd's injury the same as Najera's and TAW's?

vinnieponte
08-02-2004, 04:46 PM
One day its all about Vince, next day its all about Kidd, but my main concern is, do you think any of this is really going to happen. I do believe that come August 24th trades will happen yet I'm almost at the point of becoming a non-believer of the upmost rumors, especially the way Mark has done things this offseason. Anyone else have an idea??

V
08-02-2004, 05:03 PM
vponte - You've given me an idea for a new thread.

chumdawg
08-02-2004, 06:33 PM
Unless things turn really ugly in NJ as a result of Kidd demanding a trade, it stands to reason that the Nets would be inclined to hold on to Kidd until the trade deadline. (Of course, this assumes that the Nets believe he can return from surgery and play at a high level. If they don't think that, then surely they would take the best offer this summer, even for nothing in return.)

But imagine what things might look like at the deadline. Houston might be absolutely desperate for PG help. Miami might be a top contender in the East and feel, perhaps legitimately, that Kidd would put them over the top. Gary Payton might be having a terrible year, and the Lakers might be hovering around 8th place in the conference. The Mavericks might be doing everything in Nellie's power to cover up for a rookie and little else at the point. Injuries could take their toll on other contenders.

If Kidd is going to have anything left after the surgery, the Nets should hold on to him for a while. Especially if they can be believed when they say that losing Martin got them under the luxury tax and now they are okay with payroll.

jayC
08-02-2004, 10:27 PM
the durability of kid and other things from DB.com :


KIDD’S LOAD: Forgetting for a moment what it would take to get him from New Jersey, some risk/reward questions if the Mavs are considering a trade for Jason Kidd:
Too old? He’ll be 32 in March.
Too many miles? He’s starting his 11th season as a 38-minutes per game guy.
How do superstar guards perform in seasons 11, 12, 13 and 14? If no serious injury occurs, expect a gradual decline in minutes, productivity and quickness. Fortunately for Kidd, he’s still exceptionally quick (assuming recovery from surgery). He’s also big and strong enough to defend shooting guards, so when Marquis sits down Kidd could guard the “2’” while scrawny, quick Devin hounds the opposing point guard.
If he avoids additional serious injuries and makes a full recovery from knee surgery — two big ifs — I would think he’d be outstanding the next two seasons and very good for season 13 and maybe 14.
When will he be ready to play like Jason Kidd, given the generally long time it has taken to recover from microfracture knee surgery? If the Mavs get Kidd, my advice would be to give him all the time he needs — and then tack on an extra 6 weeks. I’d also make it a hard-and-fast rule that he not play back-to-back games in 2004-05. That is, if the Mavs play Tuesday and Wednesday, he plays one game or the other, but never on consecutive nights. If he tells Nelly, “But I feel great,” Nelly should reply, “Did you ever think that maybe the reason you feel great is because you always have a day off between games?”
The focus should not be, “Let’s ride our new horse and rack up as many regular-season wins as possible.” It should be, “Forget wins. Let’s take a cautious, sensible approach that increases the chances that Jason will be effective and healthy for the length of his contract.”
As far as I know, he’s the seventh NBA guy to undergo the procedure.
(Read more about microfracture surgery, including insights from Mavs’ physician Tarek Souryal, here:
MICROFRACTURE STUFF
FISH ON RADIO: LISTEN LIVE!
The others are Penny Hardaway, Eduardo Najera, Jamal Mashburn, Chris Webber, Kerry Kittles and Allan Houston. Aside from Kittles, I wouldn’t take much comfort from that list. (The last of Kittles’ four knee surgeries was microfracture, which took place in 2000. He’s held up very well since then.) From what I’ve read, it seems that NFL players have done better post-surgery, perhaps because they play once a week.
A deal for Jason Kidd? Proceed with caution – both before and after acquiring him. Dennis Hans 6:43 pm Aug 2 2004

GIGEMLAW
08-02-2004, 10:32 PM
I think NJ will not take on a bunch of bad contracts just to rid themselves of Kidd. They may take on shorter term contracts, i.e, TAW. Therefore, Finley is out of the picture.

Here is how I see the deal going down.

Dallas Trades: Walker, Delk, and TAW.
Dallas Recieves: Kidd plus Trade Exception for about $10M.
Dallas gets Kidd to make the last year of his contract a Team Option. This is Kidd's price for getting the trade done. So, in reality Kidd has a 4-year deal with a team option on the 5th, i.e., like what the Mavs did with Van Exel.

If you look at this trade. Walker for Kidd. Advantage NJ/DAL. This depends upon how NJ views it in a dump of salary or as a tradeable commodity. They dump his salary for 14.6M. TAW and Delk for Trade Exception. Advantage DAL. This is part of the compensation for taking on the Kidd contract. It gives NJ some roster people who can play at the start of the season. Maybe the Mavs could add one of there non-signed drafties in Sekularick??? or Flores.

To me, that is really an equittable trade for both sides, especially if Kidd is demanding out and the Nets are looking to get there salary down to a level to move to NY.

Look at the pros and cons to each side for this deal:

Mavs Pros
1. They get a roster reducer in the 3 for 1 trade.
2. They get rid of TAW and Delk's contracts.
3. They get the pouter out of Big D.
4. They get there veteran PG who can help train Harris.
5. The contract expirations will be set that Finley will be gone in 4 years and Kidd will as well. This will be the right time to go out on the FA market and sign a missing piece, if any. They will have 37 million in expiring contracts after the 2007-8 season.
6. They increase ticket sales and vendor revenues.

Mavs Cons
1. They take a gamble that Kidd will be able to play the full term of his contract.
3. They lock themselves into another huge LT contract with an aging veteran.
4. They take a gamble that Kidd may never be what he used to be. Even 80% is better than most PGs, however.
5. They could end up pissing off Harris with this signing. He could also digress instead of progress under Kidd.

NJ Pros
1. They get future salary cap flexibility.
2. They get rid of an unhappy camper with a bloated contract, especially after knee surgery.
3. They get roster expansion with the addtion of 3 live bodies (possibly 4 or 5) for the start of the season. They also fill needs with those roster spots. Backup for Jefferson and a vet SG to go along with Lucious Harris.
4. They get a chance to make Jefferson and Collins the focus of this team, and build around them with talented youth in the future. Doesn't this sound familiar?

NJ Cons
1. They give up a superstar and only get back cap flexibility.
2. They increase salary a little from where they already are for this year.
3. They lose ticket sales with no superstar besides Jefferson on the court. Of course, I imagine the fact that they are moving to NY will be the main reason for that.

V2M
08-02-2004, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: ddh33
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I see some problems here.

1. The Nets are about to buy out Lucious and save themselves some more money. Why trade him to take on more salary?
2. The Nets got the TE so they would be under the tax. Why use it and go ack where they were?

Seems to me that if you are going to make it worth the Nets while, you can't just give them junk for the little bit of flexibility they have already acquired.

ddh I can only think of NJ wanting to save long term in salaries by dumping Kidd's huge salary by taking on a little extra salary in the short term. I don't think that they would do it. Certainly Walker/Stack/Delk/and TAW for Kidd/Harris/and TE is as close to a complete fantasy as I can imagine. Portland could beat this easily by trading Stoudamire or Shareiff straight up for Kidd. Sure NJ wants to dump salary. Sure Kidd wants out. But I don't think that NJ is willing to take on more salary, even in the short term, to dump Kidd. Certainly not if a lot of the salary is garbage that no one wants for the price.


On the face of it, I do agree that it seems like a too-good-to-be-true deal for Dallas. But I can't imagine a team out there willing to take a 31yr old PG (even if it's the best!) coming off a microfracture surgery and who still has 5yrs/$90M left on his contract. Yes, Portland may come close w/ Stoudamire or SAR. But isn't Portland looking to dump salaries? Is Kidd willing to go there? And then, don't you think Walk/Stack combo tilts the balance a bit, talent-wise, towards the Dallas deal?

I'm not sure of the answers to these questions. I just feel, given the conditions, that deal is fairly risk-aversive for us. May be we could throw in a 2nd rounder and some cash. I'd definitely not include Howard or a future #1.

Poindexter Einstein
08-03-2004, 01:48 AM
"Dallas Trades: Walker, Delk, and TAW.
Dallas Recieves: Kidd plus Trade Exception for about $10M."

THAT DEAL WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

It puts NJ well above the LT level again.