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View Full Version : Rethinking the Point


ddh33
08-04-2004, 11:21 PM
The trade is official. Jason Terry is a Mav and immediately annointed as the starting Point and Steve's replacement.

The bigger question is how long does he stay? With Jason Kidd rumors still floating around, will the Mavs actually get involved?

I have been on record as saying that if Jason Kidd is healthy, you get him. I'm not crazy about him, but as a player, he is truly special. He is one of the stars in the league and one of about 4 guys in the world that make his teams better than the sum of its parts.

I also have concerns about Kidd. Obviously, I worry about his health. I worry about his age. I worry about his durability. I worry about his lack of a jumpshot. I worry about his penchant to be a little bit of a premadonna. I worry about his contract. And I worry about him being able to someday take a backseat.

My concerns could be alleivated, but I can't help but wonder, once all things are considered, whether or not the Mavs are better off with Jason Terry.

I have very high hopes for Devin Harris. I also have high hopes for Marquis. And as I look at a potential three guard rotation for the next several years, I actually feel a little better about the current three than I would if Kidd were one of them.

I guess I'm just wondering where others stand on this issue? How long do you want Terry to stay? More and more, I think you can mark me down on the side that prefers him to the reputed best PG in the game.

JLEEHASMUCHGAME
08-04-2004, 11:41 PM
Unless you can get Kidd and a legitimate big without losing much, I say keep terry and go after a center for the rest of the offseason. I'm getting kind of worried that all of this was just to net kidd. pun originally not intended...

V
08-04-2004, 11:42 PM
I'd honestly probably rather root for a young kid with tons of talent, who wants to be in Dallas, who needs a break, who can blossom in a Mavs-style system next to Dirk... than a star vet player who feels the need to blow a kiss to the rim before every free throw.

That said, if Kidd is health you have to get him... I guess.

When I think about why I prefer Jason Terry to Kidd it's similar to the reason I'm sort of glad the Mavs didn't get Shaq. If Shaq came to Dallas... and if the Mavs won a championship would it really feel like "our guys" won it ... or would it feel like Shaq brought a trophy to Dallas? Either way I would be thrilled so don't get me wrong. The difference is a championship might be a little sweeter if our underdogs pulled it off without the Big Fella. Same thing with the "superstar" Jason Kidd. Part of me wants to win with "our guys" not someone else's top 5 player in the NBA.

Everyone likes to pull for the underdog. Nelly is an underdog coach. The Mavs are a collection of black sheep themselves -- from Cuban (internet billionaire) to Nelly (fat, beer drinking coach) to Dirk (German), Finley (can't dribble), Daniels (undrafted), Howard (slipped), Bradley (giant), Najera (Mexican), Stack (down & out), Booth (lost potential) and now Terry (Hawk).... Hell the only player with an untarnished pedigree at this point is Devin Harris.

I say keep Jason Terry. Eff Jason Kidd.

GP
08-04-2004, 11:45 PM
I think the Mavs ought to keep Terry and see how he does this year. From what I have seen of him (not that much) he is an electric player that can pass, shoot and defend the perimeter. He is also very explosive. Terry should fit right into the Mavs style and really be able to play an up tempo game, which after Nash left I thought they would have to scrap. The Mavs need to keep all of their young guys and resist the temptation to trade for an old guy. In a couple of years I can see this group gelling into something very special. Dirk should continue to be one of the top 5 players in the league and being surrounded with guys who play both ends of the floor will really enhance his game. Everyone seems to want to include Josh Howard in a trade for a geezer, but he is developing into a very, very good player. His athleticism reminds me of Scotty Pippen. If he could develop into 1/2 the player that Pippen was in his prime then the Mavs have an excellent find. I would like the Mavs to cut loose the players that they aren't going to play like Wahed and whoever else and fill the roster spot with guys like Chris Marcus. They need to figure out who their 8 or 9 man rotation is going to be and get rid of the dead wood. If they can't get good value for their expiring contracts they need to let them expire and save the money. They don't need to be spending 90 million on payroll if they aren't going to have Shaq, Kobe, Dirk or other top shelf talent. Mediocre to good talent at premium prices just doesn't make sense to me.

EricaLubarsky
08-04-2004, 11:47 PM
I think a lot of the opinions I'm tossing around are in the poll thread.

sike
08-04-2004, 11:51 PM
so seeing how the title of this thread is rethinking the point...how many shots should the point now take???
Terry15/Harris7
Daniels 14/Stackhouse10
Finley13/Howard9
Dirk20/eddie or henderson4
Bradley/Booth/DJ some combonation of 10 a game
thats 102 shots a game..that is too many......who loses shots???

ddh33
08-04-2004, 11:57 PM
Stackhouse loses shots, Sike. I don't think he ever plays here, and whoever he brings in a trade won't shoot as much.

sike
08-05-2004, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by: ddh33
Stackhouse loses shots, Sike. I don't think he ever plays here, and whoever he brings in a trade won't shoot as much.
though I would love to see him light it up, I have no problem with using and the likes of an L8 to bring in a really big body...
I do think they need to trim some shots....kicking one of those at the 2/3 spot to the curb would solve that potential issue
edited because I'm tired and cant tell the difference between a 3 and a 4

JLEEHASMUCHGAME
08-05-2004, 12:25 AM
yeah, one of our swingmen will probably be traded. I don't want Howard to be shooting that much unless he's improved significantly from last year. Same goes with Marquis. Efficiency will be the key into knowing the number of shots of each player. Nellie will go with what works though I hope Nellie does start to forcefeed Dirk regardless of the results. I think it will be good for the team in the end.

Thinking about it, I really miss Nash. I think this team is built for Nash to be tutoring Harris or Daniels into being the point of the future. Now it's like we have to patch a hole that seemingly wouldn't be there had Nash stayed for another year. I think with Terry we might have a more edgey team, but I'm not sure how well Harris and Daniels will develop. Maybe we do need Kidd. Bad contract and health concens aside, he might provide that veteran overseership we needed from nash that might make the investments in Harris and Daniels look great. Plus, a kidd/dirk/finley/howard/bradley lineup could probably compete for the title.

So I guess I'm wavering on this issue.

GP
08-05-2004, 12:43 AM
I'm thinking the current roster has 8 people who are 30 or over. Can't get much more veteran leadership than that. Let Dirk and Finley provide the veteran leadership, because the surgery Kidd had is not conducive to being able to return to an elite level in a short amount of time. If they trade for Kidd it should be because he is proven healthy and they have a team good enough to compete for a championship without him. Getting him would then give them a great shot at winning the championship.

fin4life
08-05-2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by: sike
so seeing how the title of this thread is rethinking the point...how many shots should the point now take???
Terry15/Harris7
Daniels 14/Stackhouse10
Finley13/Howard9
Dirk20/eddie or henderson4
Bradley/Booth/DJ some combonation of 10 a game
thats 102 shots a game..that is too many......who loses shots???

Terry... plain and simple. Just because he led the howks in scoring/shots (maybe stephen jackson did... not really important) doesnt mean that those shots carry over to the mavs. He will not be the mavs second scorer. fin and daniels should shoot more than him.

With all of that being said, I dont think that now is the time to worry about that. We will make another deal within a month that will reduce our roster size. We will have less players so maybe we lose about 8-10 shots.

EricaLubarsky
08-05-2004, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by: GP
I'm thinking the current roster has 8 people who are 30 or over.

Shawn Bradley
Michael Finley
Alan Henderson
Christian Laettner

I count 4. Stackhouse will be 30 by the end of the season.

JLEEHASMUCHGAME
08-05-2004, 12:56 AM
You very well might be right GP. I'm back and forth on Terry simply because this trade was so unexpected. Nash was probably more of a buffer for Daniels last year than someone that keyed in his development. Terry could definitely fit that kind of role for the rook and Daniels. Terry/daniels/fin/howard/dirk/bradley/benga/booth/stackhouse/harris/pavel. Convince me more on Benga and I might be ready to really believe in these guys.

sike
08-05-2004, 12:57 AM
Terry... plain and simple. Just because he led the howks in scoring/shots (maybe stephen jackson did... not really important) doesnt mean that those shots carry over to the mavs. He will not be the mavs second scorer. fin and daniels should shoot more than him.
you give no reason for this statement...surely you dont think Daniels is a better proven scorer do you??? Have you ever even seen Terry play? Give reasons. Why is it plain and simple that he loses shots and why is it that Terry is not a second option here?

With all of that being said, I dont think that now is the time to worry about that. We will make another deal within a month that will reduce our roster size. We will have less players so maybe we lose about 8-10 shots.
no one is worried. As mentioned before of the guys taking a lot of shots for this team next season, only Stack will be likely traded...that is still a lot of shots to be divided up....I'm not concerned with the roster in this post, i'm interested in shot breakdown...I agree as my previous post points out, if Stack is traded then that probably open up 10-14 shots a game...this was just stated in a previous post though...I am far more interested to hear you justify your statement on Terry not being worthy of second option status...and your justification of Finley or Daniels as taking that spot.

sike
08-05-2004, 01:01 AM
JLEEHASMUCHGAME said: ready to go to war with these guys.
not to pick on ya Leeh, but i cannot tell you how sick I am of this phrase!!!

fin4life
08-05-2004, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by: sike

Terry... plain and simple. Just because he led the howks in scoring/shots (maybe stephen jackson did... not really important) doesnt mean that those shots carry over to the mavs. He will not be the mavs second scorer. fin and daniels should shoot more than him.
you give no reason for this statement...surely you dont think Daniels is a better proven scorer do you??? Have you ever even seen Terry play? Give reasons. Why is it plain and simple that he loses shots and why is it that Terry is not a second option here?


I'll give you some evidence... Antawn Jamison and Antoine walker. Jamison got near 20 shots a game in GS, but when he came to Dallas his shots dropped significantly. Same goes for walker. It makes sense... when someone is from a team where he is depended on to deliver big points every night and is sent to one where those contributions arent needed, his shot totals go down.

JLEEHASMUCHGAME
08-05-2004, 01:10 AM
Terry won't be the one losing those shots unless someone else steps up and takes it from him. I mentioned earlier - and believe it is a trend with Nellie except for maybe last year's Walker experiment - that Nellie simply goes with what works best. If Terry is his best option out there often, which I definitely can forsee happening, Terry will get those shots. Does dirk get 20 shots? That might be the question considering dirk's unselfishness and Nellie's coaching style. I think it would be good for Dirk and the team if it happened, but then again, maybe it's not the best way. I just hope the Mavs do find some type of set identity before it's too late.

JLEEHASMUCHGAME
08-05-2004, 01:11 AM
yeah sike, I was going to put it in quotes, but I guess I'm not quite as sick as you are of it, sorry. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

sike
08-05-2004, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by: fin4life

Originally posted by: sike

Terry... plain and simple. Just because he led the howks in scoring/shots (maybe stephen jackson did... not really important) doesnt mean that those shots carry over to the mavs. He will not be the mavs second scorer. fin and daniels should shoot more than him.
you give no reason for this statement...surely you dont think Daniels is a better proven scorer do you??? Have you ever even seen Terry play? Give reasons. Why is it plain and simple that he loses shots and why is it that Terry is not a second option here?


I'll give you some evidence... Antawn Jamison and Antoine walker. Jamison got near 20 shots a game in GS, but when he came to Dallas his shots dropped significantly. Same goes for walker. It makes sense... when someone is from a team where he is depended on to deliver big points every night and is sent to one where those contributions arent needed, his shot totals go down.
this is not evidence of this specific case...I'm sure if I wanted I could dig up plenty of examples where the new guys took many shots...but that example you gave is not evidence..it is mere an example proving an entirely different point for a different group of players. I want reason or real evidence specific to the player mentioned as to why Terry will need to cut back shots...I dont want, nor does this site need, just another opinion unsupported by facts when facts are needed to support that opinion. You said that it was plain as day that Terry is the guy taking less shots and when I asked you for reasons you gave me an example of a totally different senario...Terry is not Walker and Jamison....Terry does not play the 4 like Jamison and Walker did....Terry is not stepping into a position where the team is strong like Walker and Jamison(remember they did have a guy named Dirk who was second team all NBA before they arrived) Terry has merely to step in front of a rookie....reasons or facts as to why Terry should not be second option...reasons or facts as to why Finley at this point in his career or Daniels still an unproven player are obviously more deserving than to shoot than Terry...if this is all just unsupported personal opinion than just say so and I can accept that.

fin4life
08-05-2004, 01:36 AM
I'll give you some evidence... Antawn Jamison and Antoine walker. Jamison got near 20 shots a game in GS, but when he came to Dallas his shots dropped significantly. Same goes for walker. It makes sense... when someone is from a team where he is depended on to deliver big points every night and is sent to one where those contributions arent needed, his shot totals go down.
this is not evidence of this specific case...I'm sure if I wanted I could dig up plenty of examples where the new guys took many shots...but that example you gave is not evidence..it is mere an example proving an entirely different point for a different group of players. I want reason or real evidence specific to the player mentioned as to why Terry will need to cut back shots...I dont want, nor does this site need, just another opinion unsupported by facts when facts are needed to support that opinion. You said that it was plain as day that Terry is the guy taking less shots and when I asked you for reasons you gave me an example of a totally different senario...Terry is not Walker and Jamison....Terry does not play the 4 like Jamison and Walker did....Terry is not stepping into a position where the team is strong like Walker and Jamison(remember they did have a guy named Dirk who was second team all NBA before they arrived) Terry has merely to step in front of a rookie....reasons or facts as to why Terry should not be second option...reasons or facts as to why Finley at this point in his career or Daniels still an unproven player are obviously more deserving than to shoot than Terry...if this is all just unsupported personal opinion than just say so and I can accept that.[/quote]

yes, this is my opinion... but you are arguing your opinion. Do you really have any evidence of how many shots every player on the mavs will take...NO. I have no problem with the fact that no real evidence is provided, that is what this board is meant for so calm down.

sike
08-05-2004, 01:45 AM
yes, this is my opinion...
I thought so.

but you are arguing your opinion.
I did not make an outlandish claim like you.

Do you really have any evidence of how many shots every player on the mavs will take...NO.
do you really think I was making an argument? all I did was ask a question, which you answered and now I know you dont have any real reason to think what you think other than simple subjective opinion.

I have no problem with the fact that no real evidence is provided
ok...that is where we part ways

that is what this board is meant for
well opinion is a good thing for a forum...but silly claims without support is all that is wrong with forums.

so calm down.
I am not emotional at all in this matter bro, I hope you are not upset...I sure ain't i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Evilmav2
08-05-2004, 04:43 AM
How many shots should our new PG rotation be taking next year?

Well, I don't know if there is any ideal breakdown that Nellie can or will enforce, but I sure as heck know that Marquis will continue to take lots and lots of shots (hopefully most coming from his posting up smaller PG's- where, in Big Don's words, "he may be our best scorer with his back to the basket"), and I can't help but guess that Jason Terry will make the most of his newfound, Nellie-system-freedom to be shooting threes, attacking in the full-court, and driving the lane with abandon. In doing this, I will be amazed if he doesn't finish out next season being in the Mavs top 3 in total scoring, and in field goal attempts.

Offensively gifted Devin should also join our upcoming 2004-2005 perimeter offensive show (as will Stack at the 2 spot, if he's still here), but I can't help but think that his minutes will be significantly limited until at least this Spring, and thus he won't even come close to challenging Terry and Daniels for total shot attempts...