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NYCdog
08-10-2004, 02:53 PM
Apparently she's getting cold feet about a criminal trial....Filing a civil suit would allow her to drop the criminal trial, thus virtually sparing Kobe jail time.

Another note about this......... with a civil suit, she is no longer protected by the rape sheild law.

Thus, all evidence of her past, as well as her identity, will become public.

So look for all sorts of gory details to spill out into the media soon after regarding this case and Kate Faber.

------------------------------------------
Lawyers ask for $75K in compensatory damages

Kobe accuser's lawyers launch attack vs. judge
Attorneys for the woman ...


Tuesday, August 10, 2004


Associated Press
DENVER -- The 20-year-old woman accusing Kobe Bryant of rape filed a federal civil lawsuit against the NBA star Tuesday, seeking unspecified damages for pain, suffering and "public scorn, hatred and ridicule."




The attorneys asked for a jury trial and compensatory damages of at least $75,000, with punitive damages to be determined later.


With the filing, the woman's attorneys backed up a threat they made a week ago. A criminal case requires a higher standard of proof to convict -- beyond a reasonable doubt -- and punishment can involve prison time. A civil case has a lower standard of proof -- a preponderance of evidence -- and punishment is usually a monetary award.


Bryant 25, has pleaded not guilty to felony sexual assault. He has said had consensual sex with the woman, then 19, at the Vail-area resort where she worked last summer. The Los Angeles Lakers star faces four years to life in prison or 20 years to life on probation, and a fine of up to $750,000 if convicted. Jury selection begins Aug. 27.


Bryant's defense attorney, Pamela Mackey, did not immediately return a message seeking comment and neither did the woman's attorneys, John Clune and L. Lin Wood. All attorneys in the case were reminded by the judge last week that a sweeping gag order is in place.


However, the woman's attorneys laid out generally the same case against Bryant as have Eagle County prosecutors: That Bryant attacked her in his room at the Cordillera resort, causing her emotional and physical problems that linger to this day.


"The conduct of defendant Bryant demonstrates willful, reckless and intentional criminal conduct and that entire want of care that raises a conscious indifference to consequences," the attorneys wrote.


Prosecution spokeswoman Krista Flannigan said the civil lawsuit changes nothing for prosecutors.


"We are still moving forward," she said. She declined comment when asked whether the civil case could complicate the effort to win a conviction.

LRB
08-10-2004, 03:02 PM
This is no surprise with all the leaks about her identity by the judge and the judges refusal to stop posting documents on the internet where the links have occured 3 times in the past. She needs the money to protect herself from threats. Hope she gets every last dime of Shobe's money including the diamond on his wife's finger.

Drbio
08-10-2004, 03:23 PM
There is big fat check signed by showbe behind all of this you can be sure.

TripleDipping
08-11-2004, 09:08 AM
Not something we wouldn't expect out of a superstar's case.

Still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, nevertheless.

sike
08-11-2004, 09:24 AM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
kobe is playing next season just a mil or so lighter in the pocket.
what a skank.

u2sarajevo
08-11-2004, 09:29 AM
I am not shocked at all. I think it was becoming increasingly obvious to everyone that Kobe's law team had already produced enough reasonable doubt in the public already. I don't know why anyone ever bothers prosecuting rich celebrities anyway. They always win.

I think our judicial system works "most" of the time. But I question whether or not it works in the case of a high-profile celeb.

Male30Dan
08-11-2004, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by: sike
what a skank.

Dude, I dont know how necessary that is...

sike
08-11-2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by: Male23Dan

Originally posted by: sike
what a skank.
Dude, I dont know how necessary that is...
sure.....chase the money instead of justice....I suppose its her right...but from what I hear (papers/radio) this is a very strange move for a rape victim...let the rapist go free for a little(actually a lot) money. how about this.....they both are skanks.

Male30Dan
08-11-2004, 09:47 AM
She hasnt yet dropped her criminal case solely for the civil case; however, if she does, maybe I can agree with you!!! As of now, she is trying to put Showbe behind bars and put a few pennies, (billion of em or so), in her pocket!

sike
08-11-2004, 09:52 AM
she will not win the criminal case now. (experts agree the DA'a chances of winning [which were rather small] have just taken a great hit)
she has sacrificed justice for cash.
don't ever sacrifice justice!
is it her choice? sure....is she proving her skank status? yup.

Male30Dan
08-11-2004, 09:56 AM
Well, I dont know that anyone really knows whether or not she will win, (despite their EXPERT tag).

With that said, yeah I think she hurt her chances with this due to her having a reason to lie - financial gain...

jayC
08-11-2004, 10:38 AM
I thought they dropped the rape shield law regardless of the civil suit. I heard that Kobe groped some waitress at Shaq's house in Orlando.

gruppy
08-11-2004, 11:07 AM
Am I missing something, but couldn't she file the civil case against Kobe after criminal case was finished. Wasn't it the way prosecution did against O.J.?

LRB
08-11-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: Male23Dan

Originally posted by: sike
what a skank.
Dude, I dont know how necessary that is...
sure.....chase the money instead of justice....I suppose its her right...but from what I hear (papers/radio) this is a very strange move for a rape victim...let the rapist go free for a little(actually a lot) money. how about this.....they both are skanks.

Sike, her physical safety was in danger that's why she needs the money to buy protection. Unfortunately the Judge's office kept "accidentally" releasing confidential information on her via the internet. Despite "accidentally" doing this 3 times, the judge refused to stop posting documents on the internet. I would find it hard to believe that Kobe wasn't bribing someone to make these accidents. With the judges office releasing confidential information that damaged her case and she and her lawyers and the DA being under a gag order unable to respond, the criminal case became a lost cause. It also allowed sicko fans to get her name and be able to make threats against her personally. It is extemely sad that the judge refused to insure that the rape shield laws were upheld. It seems that rich celebrities like Kobe have more rights that ordinary citizens.

sturm und drang
08-11-2004, 12:22 PM
With it becoming increasingly obvious each day that the criminal case is going nowhere, a civil suit is the only remaining option to achieve some vestige of justice. Also, in a civil suit they can force Kobe to testify something that wasn't going to happen in the criminal case.

Calling the accuser a "skank" is sickening. You know, there's a reason experts estimate that less than 25% of all rapes get reported. I think you've just reminded us all why it takes such courage to come forward.

DubOverdose
08-11-2004, 12:44 PM
Wouldn't it be funny if all of Kobe's new contract went to home girl?

LRB
08-11-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by: DubOverdose
Wouldn't it be funny if all of Kobe's new contract went to home girl?

Funny as in ha ha, no. Funny as in ironic justice, definitely.

sike
08-11-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by: sturm und drang
With it becoming increasingly obvious each day that the criminal case is going nowhere
pure conjecture

a civil suit is the only remaining option to achieve some vestige of justice.
if justice = cash, then i agree totally.

hey I think Kobe is more than likely a rapist...don't get me wrong. I just find it strange that justice is once again (most likely) going to be thrown aside for the almighty dollar.

mary
08-11-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by: sturm und drang
With it becoming increasingly obvious each day that the criminal case is going nowhere, a civil suit is the only remaining option to achieve some vestige of justice. Also, in a civil suit they can force Kobe to testify something that wasn't going to happen in the criminal case.

Calling the accuser a "skank" is sickening. You know, there's a reason experts estimate that less than 25% of all rapes get reported. I think you've just reminded us all why it takes such courage to come forward.

That's exactly what I thought about when I read this thread. I guess some things will never change.

And Sike, justice is not being thrown aside for the almight dollar. Justice is being thrown aside because this case as been completely botched by the courts, with the "mistaken" release of confidential files to the public.

Drbio
08-11-2004, 01:37 PM
Sikey my friend...I have to agree with S&D and mary here. It takes ENORMOUS amounts of courage and thick skin to come forward. I think her of more as a hero than anything else. Certainly skank is out of line.

Male30Dan
08-11-2004, 01:42 PM
Shame on you sike... Shame on you indeed!!!

sike
08-11-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by: Male23Dan
Shame on you sike... Shame on you indeed!!!
well said dan. well said indeed!!!

maybe I've gotten a totally wrong picture of this young woman...maybe, as doc says, she is a hero...maybe, as Mary says, she is just seeking justice anyway she can...maybe, as I say, she is a victim...maybe, as you all say, I am totally out of line....I will say this though, I predicted this from day one. I knew this would not go away without a civil case seeking millions in reparations. Maybe their is nothing wrong with that...maybe their is everything right with that....but I hate the idea of Kobe walking free if he is guilty...I also hate the idea of this young woman (dispite her seemingly questional moral fiber) taking money and thinking she has received justice. the message is simple...get raped by a millionaire take him for a few million and get over it....THIS IS NOT JUSTICE.

i do apologize for the "skank" comment, I did not mean to minamize this young woman's stature as the victim.

Male30Dan
08-11-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: Male23Dan
Shame on you sike... Shame on you indeed!!!
well said dan. well said indeed!!!

Sarcastic little alien you! i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif


I knew this would not go away without a civil case seeking millions in reparations.

Actually it is for just over 700,000

LRB
08-11-2004, 02:38 PM
Sike, ideally Kobe's fame and millions wouldn't shield him from being justly tried as it apparently has. It's a flaw in our system and one not eaisly corrected.

Ideally in my mind Kobe would be given a just trial. If he was found guilty he would serve at least the next 20 years behind bars. If found guilty, then he'd be free to go.

If he was guilty, I'd love to see him stripped of all his money and put into a victims fund to benefit all victims of rape and other violent crimes. Maybe the victim will donate the excess money that she doesn't need for medical treatments and protection to a charity that does this. I don't expect this, but it would be the correct move IMO. But I still don't necessarily blame her if she keeps the money. It must be an awful feeling to have been violated with a crime like rape and then essentially be raped again by the system in the way it's treated her. Now she finds out that criminal justice is denied to her essentially because Kobe is a rich and famous. That's horrible.

Of course there is the possibility that she's lying and making this all up, but I think that it is incredibly small compared to the possibility that Kobe did indeed rape her.

Epitome22
08-11-2004, 04:32 PM
I think Kobe's defense has put forth more than enough reasonable doubt that speaking of him as a criminal off-hand is unjust. I was originally behind this woman, but the newer evidence has led me to seriously doubt or question her believability. The sole remaining factor that kept me on the fence was the fact that she did not opt for civil suit, and instead pressed charges against him. Well it looks like the cash was on her mind.


Free Kobe from this burdensome trial and leave this skank to her own devices. If only there was a way to sue or press charges for false accusal.

Drbio
08-11-2004, 04:43 PM
Epitome- calling this woman a skank exposes you as a jackass for the reasons listed above.



To set the civil parameters straight, according to ESPN, the civil suit seeks compensatory damages of no more than $75K and asks for punitive damages related to pain and suffering, public scorn, etc.

LRB
08-11-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by: Epitome22
I think Kobe's defense has put forth more than enough reasonable doubt that speaking of him as a criminal off-hand is unjust. I was originally behind this woman, but the newer evidence has led me to seriously doubt or question her believability. The sole remaining factor that kept me on the fence was the fact that she did not opt for civil suit, and instead pressed charges against him. Well it looks like the cash was on her mind.


Free Kobe from this burdensome trial and leave this skank to her own devices. If only there was a way to sue or press charges for false accusal.

Somehow this doesn't surprise me at all Epitome. You seem like the type who would be against rape victims rights. Of course reasonable doubt only means that a jury can't convict, it hardly proves Kobe innocent. Add to the fact that the "leaked" evidence has been in Kobe's favor but the victim, her lawyers, and the prosecution are under gag order to reply to it. So you're just hearing one side.

Now she only goes to civil suit after being severely abused by the court which "accidentally" leaked personal and confidential information to the public on 3 seperate occasions.

Make no mistake, Kobe if he gets off will do so because of his wealth and fame, even if by some chance he's innocent, which he's not. It's possible that he may not have raped the girl, but in no way is Kobe innocent. At the very least he's an adulter.

But even if falsely accused Kobe has the money to take care of and protect himself. His accuser does not. What we will see if this criminal trial goes forth is the accuser and not the accused being put on trial. In fact that is already what's happened. Fortunately for Kobe there are a lot of sexist bigots who always look for any excuse to blame the woman. Thanks Epitome for keeping the dream true to form. i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif

sturm und drang
08-11-2004, 05:06 PM
Epitome22 wrote:

"I think Kobe's defense has put forth more than enough reasonable doubt"

Well I for one can tell you how just how much weight this carries with me. World, take note! Epitome22 has declared Kobe innocent. It must be so. The kangaroo court has spoken: jury be damned! Epitome has spoken.

This is yet another unfortunate reminder that even the most well-intended rape shield laws don't shield victims from the assinine epithets and slurs hurled by misogynist cretins.

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 04:38 AM
Originally posted by: Drbio
Epitome- calling this woman a skank exposes you as a jackass for the reasons listed above.


She is/was a skank whether she was raped or not. In fact the prosecution must be thinking that if she had made even a few conscientious objections to sitting on every penis that was presented to her, their case would have been a whole lot smoother. I feel sorry for REAL rape victims and the effect this trial will have on their future endeavors to bring perpetrators to justice.

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 04:43 AM
double post

mary
08-12-2004, 05:25 AM
Edit: Forget it, you're not worth it.

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


Somehow this doesn't surprise me at all Epitome. You seem like the type who would be against rape victims rights.

I find this statement wildly inappropriate. If we are to operate at the level you set the parameter at, then you seem like the type who likes to see rich successful black athletes go to jail for having sex with white women.



Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


Of course reasonable doubt only means that a jury can't convict, it hardly proves Kobe innocent.

No it doesen't prove Kobe innocent, but as long as reasonable doubt exists, it doesen't "prove" Kobe guilty either.


Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


Add to the fact that the "leaked" evidence has been in Kobe's favor but the victim, her lawyers, and the prosecution are under gag order to reply to it. So you're just hearing one side.


That's correct. Who knows? maybe the prosecution has "nail in the coffin" esque evidence that is equally unbenificial to Kobe. But the information that has been put forth by the defense seems pretty damning to the girl, and the recent attempts by the prosecution to postpone the trial indefinitely seems like a last ditched attempt to save face.



Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]



Make no mistake, Kobe if he gets off will do so because of his wealth and fame, even if by some chance he's innocent, which he's not. It's possible that he may not have raped the girl, but in no way is Kobe innocent. At the very least he's an adulter.

Very well then, try him for adultury. There's a heck of alot of difference between rape and adultury. There's been alot of heroic and noble men AND women throughout history who were guilty of adultury at some point or another. His "adultury" has no bearing on this matter.




Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


But even if falsely accused Kobe has the money to take care of and protect himself. His accuser does not.

And he should be thankful he has that money. There is a HUGE stigma attached to even being ACCUSED of a crime like this, even if you are aquitted or the charges are proven false.



Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


What we will see if this criminal trial goes forth is the accuser and not the accused being put on trial. In fact that is already what's happened. Fortunately for Kobe there are a lot of sexist bigots who always look for any excuse to blame the woman. Thanks Epitome for keeping the dream true to form. i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif

And unfortunately for Kobe there's alot of people out there with serious psychological hangups who like to see people go to jail then for no other reason than that they are rich and successful and are adulturers. I don't have your psychological hangups about wealthy and successful people, your crude assimilations of rape and adultury nor hangups about black athletes fornicating with white women. I'm an American and as an American, I abide by a little thing called the "presumption of innocence" something that exists in our country specifically because of the prevalence of false accusations. "The indictment or formal charge against any person is not evidence of guilt. Indeed, the person is presumed by the law to be innocent." I simply grant kobe that courtesy the same as I would to any American citizen.

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by: sturm und drang
Epitome22 wrote:


Well I for one can tell you how just how much weight this carries with me. World, take note! Epitome22 has declared Kobe innocent. It must be so. The kangaroo court has spoken: jury be damned! Epitome has spoken.

I was merely expressing my opinion. Never did I even insinuate that my opinion was substantial, should influence or have any bearing on the actual result of the trial. In fact this is plainly evident, more than enough people in this very forum have already given their verdicts in this case with much less eloquent gusto. I'm merely attacked because I didnt tow a disturbing line in this forum that wishes to convict Kobe for no other reason than he is a rich and successful black athlete who cheated on his wife and is not a fondly thought of Basketball player (in a basketball forum)



Originally posted by: sturm und drang
Epitome22 wrote:

This is yet another unfortunate reminder that even the most well-intended rape shield laws don't shield victims from the assinine epithets and slurs hurled by misogynist cretins.

Their is absolutly no validation to accuse me of being a misogynist for saying "I think Kobe's defense has put forth more than enough reasonable doubt"

If we are going to operate at this level then, This is yet another unfortunate reminder that even the most well intentioned civil rights legislation won't shield innocents from the assinine epithetes and slurs hurled by racists and people with serious class issues.

Note: You seem terribly bitter. Perhaps you should seek therapy to try understand where your puzzling resentment of rich black athletes stems from.

sturm und drang
08-12-2004, 06:46 AM
Epitome22 wrote:
"Note: You seem terribly bitter. Perhaps you should seek therapy to try understand where your puzzling resentment of rich black athletes stems from."

Hmmmm. I don't think I need to seek therapy to understand where my resentment of misogynists who slander rape accusers comes from. In fact, from many of the posts in this thread, I'd say I have good company.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with race, though I appreciate your red-herring attempts to make it seem racially-motivated. This has everything in the world to with what this woman has been put through. If you think a woman would voluntarily subject herself to this kind of scrutiny for a couple of bucks, you're sorely misguided.

The fact of the matter is that Kobe will walk free. At worst, he'll have to pay a few bucks to compensate for her lawyer fees. He'll go on playing basketball, making tens of millions of dollars a year. Unscathed.

As for the accuser: her life has been ruined. And she will never, ever get it back.

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by: sturm und drang
Hmmmm. I don't think I need to seek therapy to understand where my resentment of misogynists who slander rape accusers comes from. In fact, from many of the posts in this thread, I'd say I have good company.


There you go with that misogyny again. Tell me, is your repeated referral of me as a "Misogynist" based on my well known and read treatises about the lack of effective women in the work place, or the more productive political processes of yesteryear when women weren't allowed to vote? Or is it based solely on the fact that I dared to question the automated guilt placed by some on the accused? I do not slander rape accusers and if I do it has little to do with the fact that they are accusing someone of rape.



Originally posted by: sturm und drang

This has nothing whatsoever to do with race, though I appreciate your red-herring attempts to make it seem racially-motivated. This has everything in the world to with what this woman has been put through. If you think a woman would voluntarily subject herself to this kind of scrutiny for a couple of bucks, you're sorely misguided.


Oh I see, so we are not determining the verdict of the case based on facts and evidence, we are determining the case based on empathy for the tribulations the woman has been put through, and conjecture and supposition based on whether she would subkect herself to public scrutiny if she wasn't being truthful. That makes me glad that people much more qualified and with a fuller understanding of the law than you (or I for that matter) actually determine these decisions.



Originally posted by: sturm und drang
The fact of the matter is that Kobe will walk free. At worst, he'll have to pay a few bucks to compensate for her lawyer fees. He'll go on playing basketball, making tens of millions of dollars a year. Unscathed.

As for the accuser: her life has been ruined. And she will never, ever get it back.


If the woman really was raped then I feel sorry for her, otherwise, Kobe SHOULD be able to go on and lead a relatively happy life and the woman in question. That's what innocent people are entitled to do.

sturm und drang
08-12-2004, 08:39 AM
Misogynist? Hell yeah! When you say stuff like

"if she had made even a few conscientious objections to sitting on every penis that was presented to her.."

about a possible rape victim, I'll label it misogynist. Every day of the week and Sunday. Are women not allowed to have sex? Does the fact that she wasn't a vestal virgin at the time of the incident mean she wasn't raped? Is it even possible to rape a "skank"? You know she was asking for it.

And we all wonder why rape is so criminally under-reported. What a mystery.

kg_veteran
08-12-2004, 09:37 AM
There's a good reason for rape shield laws. A woman's sexual history has absolutely no bearing on whether she consented to sex on a PARTICULAR occasion, any more than a poor driver's driving record has bearing on whether they were negligent in a PARTICULAR car accident. It's irrelevant, and the defense wants to introduce that evidence for the sole purpose of smearing the name of the accuser, so that in essence the accuser will be on trial rather than the accused. As S&D pointed out, if they're a skank or a whore, how can they really be raped? Right? I mean, we all know that they want to be bent over a chair and physically injured during intercourse, right?

It's sickening to me to hear such nonsense. It's equally sickening to have to listen to the accusation that people on this board think Kobe's guilty because he's rich and black. Their OPINION couldn't have anything to do with the evidence that we know about, could it? Nah, they just want all rich, black people to go to jail.

Sad.

LRB
08-12-2004, 09:49 AM
Posted by Epitome22

I find this statement wildly inappropriate. If we are to operate at the level you set the parameter at, then you seem like the type who likes to see rich successful black athletes go to jail for having sex with white women.


Oh, so I get it now. The girl must be lying because she's poor white trash and Kobe is a successful black athelete. Somehow I new that you'd play the race card in this one. Kobe is black so he must be innocent. You must be about as big a bigot as they come. i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif


Very well then, try him for adultury. There's a heck of alot of difference between rape and adultury. There's been alot of heroic and noble men AND women throughout history who were guilty of adultury at some point or another. His "adultury" has no bearing on this matter.


Actually it does have bearing. Just as much if not more than the girl's sexual history. It has bearing on Kobe's character. Certainly he shouldn't go to jail just for commiting adultery. However he placed himself in this position by at the very least commiting adultery. Had he kept his pants on, he would not be in this mess.


And he should be thankful he has that money. There is a HUGE stigma attached to even being ACCUSED of a crime like this, even if you are aquitted or the charges are proven false.


The stigma is nothing compared to that of being a rape victim. This young women's life is totally wrecked. There are few possible things that could be worse than to be raped and then put on trial for having been raped. Nothing Kobe will experience in soley being accused of being a rapist will compare with what this young woman will go through for having the audacity to not lay down and take it like a whore as you obviously feel that she should have.


And unfortunately for Kobe there's alot of people out there with serious psychological hangups who like to see people go to jail then for no other reason than that they are rich and successful and are adulturers. I don't have your psychological hangups about wealthy and successful people, your crude assimilations of rape and adultury nor hangups about black athletes fornicating with white women. I'm an American and as an American, I abide by a little thing called the "presumption of innocence" something that exists in our country specifically because of the prevalence of false accusations. "The indictment or formal charge against any person is not evidence of guilt. Indeed, the person is presumed by the law to be innocent." I simply grant kobe that courtesy the same as I would to any American citizen.


The percentage of those charges which are brought which are false are extremely small compared to legitimate charges. When you consider rape the percentage of women who bring false charges is ridiculously small. And all I've called for is for justice to be done. However when you're rich, you can simply out spend the prosecution to get the verdict you want. Couple that with someone who is famous who manipulates the media to taint the jury pool with half truths. That's exactly what Kobe has done.

Now if you were simply defending Kobe I could respect that. But you have judged this woman guilty and called her the most reprehensible of names. It's yet to be shown if any of the trash Kobe's team has been saying about her is true. She's under a gag order and cannot defend herself in public. However misogynist and bigots like you can't wait to publicly humiliate and trash her reputation. Under our system the person accused of rape is legally presumed innocent until proven guilty. However you seem to believe that the alledged victim of rape is guilty until proven innocent.

FishForLunch
08-12-2004, 10:02 AM
Why is she protected while most of you guys on this board are ripping into Kobe none of you know that he raped her. What if Kobe was telling the truth, that he did not rape her, will you guys then call her names then.

kg_veteran
08-12-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by: FishForLunch
Why is she protected while most of you guys on this board are ripping into Kobe none of you know that he raped her. What if Kobe was telling the truth, that he did not rape her, will you guys then call her names then.

You're right about one thing. Nobody KNOWS whether Kobe raped her or not. We weren't there. We're all offering our OPINIONS. But I haven't heard anybody saying Kobe must be guilty because he's a rich, black athlete. I've heard people opine that he was guilty because of physical evidence, because of the circumstances, and various other reasons related to evidence that has come forth during the course of this story. That's the difference here. People are saying the accuser is lying, but NOT because of any evidence related to the incident itself; rather, they're looking at smear tactics used by the defense concerning this girl's prior sexual exploits and thinking the worst of her because she had a promiscuous past.

That's what's wrong.

dalmations202
08-12-2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by: FishForLunch
Why is she protected while most of you guys on this board are ripping into Kobe none of you know that he raped her. What if Kobe was telling the truth, that he did not rape her, will you guys then call her names then.

While true, this is just something to "B!@#$" about anyway. No one here knows the truth. The media would never report the truth. Too much money involved for their to be a Truth that is believable. Some take the young ladies side, some take the man's side. Either way, only two people know the truth, and both are probably lying to an extent to make themselves look better. Neither is perfect or good, and both have reasons to lie. It is such a shame that their can be no justice in this case --- either way.

"There are three sides to every story --- your side, my side, and then theirs the truth!" --- Loverboy "Lovin' Every Minute of it"

Nash13
08-12-2004, 10:56 AM
People are saying the accuser is lying, but NOT because of any evidence related to the incident itself; rather, they're looking at smear tactics used by the defense concerning this girl's prior sexual exploits and thinking the worst of her because she had a promiscuous past.

I don't think Kobe did it, but not b/c of the girls sexual past. It's not fair to use that fact when there's plenty other ones out there. For one, athletes, especially NBA players, are the most vulnerable people in the world when it comes to sex. So if someone wanted to set him up, it wouldn't be the hardest thing in the world to do. And i also take into consideration that Kobe is a tall, good looking young man who makes 12mil a year who has a wife, so i look at it like why does Kobe need to rape the girl unless he's just a sick individual? And i also take into consideration the evidence that the defense has that claims she had sex not too long after being raped. Even though i'm a guy, i try to put myself in her situation. So if i'm her and i got raped, the last thing i would even think about is having sex, especially if i had vaginal tearings.

chumdawg
08-12-2004, 11:24 AM
Can someone who knows please answer this question for me:

How common are the Colorado "rape shield" laws? Nationwide, are there more states that allow an examination of the accuser's behavioral patterns, or more that don't?

Further, is the prosecution generally allowed to bring the accused's behavioral patterns into court, or not?

LRB
08-12-2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by: Nash13

People are saying the accuser is lying, but NOT because of any evidence related to the incident itself; rather, they're looking at smear tactics used by the defense concerning this girl's prior sexual exploits and thinking the worst of her because she had a promiscuous past.

I don't think Kobe did it, but not b/c of the girls sexual past. It's not fair to use that fact when there's plenty other ones out there. For one, athletes, especially NBA players, are the most vulnerable people in the world when it comes to sex. So if someone wanted to set him up, it wouldn't be the hardest thing in the world to do. And i also take into consideration that Kobe is a tall, good looking young man who makes 12mil a year who has a wife, so i look at it like why does Kobe need to rape the girl unless he's just a sick individual? And i also take into consideration the evidence that the defense has that claims she had sex not too long after being raped. Even though i'm a guy, i try to put myself in her situation. So if i'm her and i got raped, the last thing i would even think about is having sex, especially if i had vaginal tearings.

1st of all rape is not about the sex, it's about the power. Anyone who rapes is extremely messed up period. Of course we know that Kobe really doesn't like power. It's not like he orchestrated shaq leaving the Lakers or anything. It's not like he orchestrated getting his boss, Phil Jackson, fired or anything. It's not like he demanded a large say in personnel moves inorder to resign with the Lakers or anything. Does this mean that Kobe raped the girl? Not by itself, but it certainly shows that he has a predilection for power.

And just because the defense says so, BTW which violates the gag order and rape shield laws, does not mean that the girl did have sex after she was supposedly raped by Kobe. In fact there is a great deal of proof in what has been released that shows that she did not have sex after her experience with Kobe. And even if she did, that is still not definitive proof. You site that you can't see someone doing that. And how many hundreds of rape victims have you encountered? Probably like most people who have only known a handful at best. So you need to rely on a study to be very accurate. Studies also show that it almost never happens that a woman falsely accuses a man of rape. Especially in high profile cases like this one because of the accusations people will level against her.

It seems that everyone is quick to jump on the smear campaign of innuendo that Kobe is conducting against this girl. He's definitely putting her on trial. Why, because his only defense is to try and make her look worse than him, and he looks pretty damn bad. In other words Kobe is incapbable of keeping from being proven guilty with out a smear campaign against this girl.

How would you feel if some rich dude beat the crap out of you and then said that you did the injuries to yourself just to get money. Proof would be that you suppossedly played Bball after the beating because you wore basketball shorts with sweat on them to the emergency room. Maybe you just got beatup playing ball. After all rich people are always targeted by dishonest lazy and worseless trash like yourself.

LRB
08-12-2004, 12:33 PM
Bryant judge faces decision, criticism (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/08/12/bryant.case.ap/index.html)

DENVER, Colorado (AP) -- Pressure is mounting on the judge overseeing Kobe Bryant's sexual assault case, with prosecutors citing courthouse gaffes as a reason for seeking the indefinite delay of the NBA star's criminal trial and the father of his accuser blasting the bench for bias against the prosecution.

Prosecutors requested the delay even as they made moves to appeal a key ruling in the case, arguing to the Colorado Supreme Court that the accuser's sexual activities should not be admitted as evidence. If accepted, the appeal could delay the trial for weeks.

The legal moves came as the father of Bryant's accuser wrote a blistering letter to District Judge Terry Ruckriegle saying his family had "lost trust that we can obtain a fair trial in your court."

"It has been painfully obvious that you treat the defense as if they can do no wrong and the prosecution and my daughter's attorney as if you have something against them or this case," he wrote in a letter filed with the court on Monday and posted on the Web sites of the Vail Daily and KUSA-TV on Wednesday.

Bryant 25, has pleaded not guilty to felony sexual assault. He has said he had consensual sex with the woman, then 19, at the Vail-area resort where she worked last summer. Jury selection is scheduled to begin August 27.

Experts said it was unlikely Ruckriegle will agree to a delay at such late notice. Nearly 1,000 residents have been mailed jury summonses, witnesses have been scheduled to testify, and the judge and attorneys have cleared their calendars for September, said Craig Silverman, a former prosecutor.

"It is an incredible logistical task to reschedule all of this," he said. "What will happen is once the continuance is denied, I would not be surprised if the prosecution throws up its hands and says `Well, then, we cannot proceed."'

The request for delay, the high court appeal and the letter could indicate the victim is planning to abandon the criminal trial, legal experts speculated Wednesday.

"It seems to be part of this well-orchestrated exit strategy from this fatally flawed criminal case," Silverman said.

In a court filing made public Wednesday, prosecutor Dana Easter said the recent release of closed-door testimony hurt the chances of getting a fair jury. She also said the judge has not yet decided whether the woman's mental health and medical history will be admitted as evidence, leaving prosecutors in limbo on whether to hire more expert witnesses. Easter also accused defense experts of waiting too long to turn over DNA test results.

Easter singled out transcripts from a June hearing that were mistakenly e-mailed to seven news organizations, including The Associated Press. The media outlets won a court fight with the judge to publish the details, including a defense expert's explanation on why she believes the accuser had sex with someone after her encounter with Bryant and before she was examined at a hospital -- a claim the woman's attorney has denied.

The widely publicized allegation was "extremely harmful" to the prosecution's case, Easter said, and Ruckriegle's strict gag order has prevented prosecutors from responding.

"The release of this information 28 days prior to trial will have the effect of tainting the jury pool and impact the ability of the prosecution to obtain a fair jury at this time," Easter wrote.

Prosecutors filed their request for a delay on Tuesday, the same day attorneys for the accuser filed a civil lawsuit against Bryant in federal court in Denver seeking compensatory damages of at least $75,000 and unspecified punitive damages.

Attorneys for the accuser and Bryant did not return messages. Prosecution spokeswoman Krista Flannigan declined to elaborate on the filing, but said a trial was still planned.

"We are still moving forward; nothing has changed," she said.

Prosecutors' appeal to the state Supreme Court challenges Ruckriegle's decision to allow details from the accuser's sex life in the three days before her hospital exam to be introduced as evidence. That decision is expected to allow the defense to argue she had sex with someone after Bryant but before the exam. The woman's attorney has denied that claim.

mavsman55
08-12-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by: sturm und drang
You know, there's a reason experts estimate that less than 25% of all rapes get reported. I think you've just reminded us all why it takes such courage to come forward.

Saying this and having no idea whether or not the girl was actually raped or not is kind of unfair, isn't it?

I'm not going to take sides on this court case but what happens if Kobe never did rape her? What will you all be saying then?

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 01:20 PM
br>Misogynist? Hell yeah! When you say stuff like

"if she had made even a few conscientious objections to sitting on every penis that was presented to her.."

about a possible rape victim, I'll label it misogynist. Every day of the week and Sunday. [/quote]


#1 You called me a misogynist before I even made that comment, so unless you have a particular gift for clairvoyance, your dubbing me a misognist is completely due to your lack of imagination to call me anything else related to the topic. #2 insulting someone's percieved (mine) lack of sexual morals and/or standards is not means worthy of accusing someone of being a misogynist. Misogyny is hatred of women, I have no psychological hangups that thus apply or anything against women as a sex or gender in paticular. My insult was not even gender based. You could accuse me of being a prude or judgemental dick for judging someone on such a superficial level and might be right, but a misogynist I am not.




Originally posted by: sturm und drang<
Are women not allowed to have sex? Does the fact that she wasn't a vestal virgin at the time of the incident mean she wasn't raped? Is it even possible to rape a "skank"? You know she was asking for it.


#1 of course Women are allowed to have sex. Your insinuation that I referred to her as a skank simply because she was a sexually active woman well in the means inbetween a vestal virigin and insatiable nymphomaniac is false. She WAS/IS a skank, she was well known as an NBA groupie/superstar cock chaser long before the trial in question came about. And from the information that has been put forth about her since, it appears she wasn't too picky in general. So yes, girlfriend liked the cock. There's nothing criminal about that, alot of other people are like that and see nothing wrong with that; maybe there is nothing wrong with that, I just find guys who stick their penis into any and every orfice presented to them and vice versa to be reprehensible. As for how it bears on whether or not she was raped, it doesen't and I made no claim to the contrary, it merely compromises the prosecution's case. The fact that she couldn't refrain from having sex inbetween the time she was allegedly raped and when she went to the hospital the next day does the prosecution no favors


Originally posted by: sturm und drang<
And we all wonder why rape is so criminally under-reported. What a mystery.

If the woman in question is indeed bringing false, then I shudder to think what that will do to future rape victims and the backlash against them in this country.

binbin
08-12-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by: LRB1st of all rape is not about the sex, it's about the power.
lrb, is that a verified scientific fact, proposed academic hypothesis, or a social/political conjecture?


Studies also show that it almost never happens that a woman falsely accuses a man of rape.
would you please provide some academic reference about that, if it is convenient for you?

thanks.

sturm und drang
08-12-2004, 01:30 PM
Um, I think you missed the point.

Whether or not Kobe is guilty is actually immaterial to this particular argument.

What is relevant is that as is so often the case in rape trials it is the victim who is put on trial. The burden of proof and chastity is placed on her. Her sexual history is offered up for all to see, the media to broadcast, the general publict to dissect and make their own moral judgments. Around the world, people call her names like "skank."

Kobe's guilt or innocence has nothing to do with it. Women know that is ultimately the victim who is tried, not the perpetrator. And if you think this isn't the single biggest reason that the vast majority of rapes go unreported, you're crazy.

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
There's a good reason for rape shield laws. A woman's sexual history has absolutely no bearing on whether she consented to sex on a PARTICULAR occasion, any more than a poor driver's driving record has bearing on whether they were negligent in a PARTICULAR car accident. It's irrelevant, and the defense wants to introduce that evidence for the sole purpose of smearing the name of the accuser, so that in essence the accuser will be on trial rather than the accused. As S&D pointed out, if they're a skank or a whore, how can they really be raped? Right? I mean, we all know that they want to be bent over a chair and physically injured during intercourse, right?


Wrong, see my reply to S&D. Your insinuation that by calling her a "skank" means I'm alligned with the "she must have been asking for it" crowd is false and completely your own creation.



Originally posted by: kg_veteran<
It's sickening to me to hear such nonsense. It's equally sickening to have to listen to the accusation that people on this board think Kobe's guilty because he's rich and black. Their OPINION couldn't have anything to do with the evidence that we know about, could it? Nah, they just want all rich, black people to go to jail.

Sad.

I cannot say for sure whether or not people thinking Kobe's guilty is based on his race, wealth or combination of both. I will attest however that I believe the opinions of Kobe's presumed guilt are based largely on factors that have nothing to do with the facts presented in this case.

kg_veteran
08-12-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by: Epitome22

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
There's a good reason for rape shield laws. A woman's sexual history has absolutely no bearing on whether she consented to sex on a PARTICULAR occasion, any more than a poor driver's driving record has bearing on whether they were negligent in a PARTICULAR car accident. It's irrelevant, and the defense wants to introduce that evidence for the sole purpose of smearing the name of the accuser, so that in essence the accuser will be on trial rather than the accused. As S&D pointed out, if they're a skank or a whore, how can they really be raped? Right? I mean, we all know that they want to be bent over a chair and physically injured during intercourse, right?


Wrong, see my reply to S&D. Your insinuation that by calling her a "skank" means I'm alligned with the "she must have been asking for it" crowd is false and completely your own creation.

Here are your words:

"Free Kobe from this burdensome trial and leave this skank to her own devices."

So you're saying that you weren't implying that Kobe didn't rape her, you just hate sexually promiscuous people? Right.



Originally posted by: kg_veteran<
It's sickening to me to hear such nonsense. It's equally sickening to have to listen to the accusation that people on this board think Kobe's guilty because he's rich and black. Their OPINION couldn't have anything to do with the evidence that we know about, could it? Nah, they just want all rich, black people to go to jail.

Sad.

I cannot say for sure whether or not people thinking Kobe's guilty is based on his race, wealth or combination of both. I will attest however that I believe the opinions of Kobe's presumed guilt are based largely on factors that have nothing to do with the facts presented in this case.

If we're talking about the opinions of some people, I'm sure you're right, just like the opinions of some people are that Kobe couldn't have possibly raped this girl because she's a "skank" and because, as you put it, "girlfriend liked the cock."

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Oh, so I get it now. The girl must be lying because she's poor white trash and Kobe is a successful black athelete. Somehow I new that you'd play the race card in this one. Kobe is black so he must be innocent. You must be about as big a bigot as they come. i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/quote]


??? This statement confuses me, and has little to do with what I said or what you said. I never once accused the girl of lying, I never insinuated that Kobe was innocent based on his status as a black athlete. My playing the "race card" in this section isn't even particualrly accurate. Those sentences were in direct response to your statement that I seemed like the type of person who would be against rape victim's rights. A wildly inappropriate and shamefully libelous statement if there ever was one. I merely regurgitated your tactics.





Actually it does have bearing. Just as much if not more than the girl's sexual history. It has bearing on Kobe's character. Certainly he shouldn't go to jail just for commiting adultery. However he placed himself in this position by at the very least commiting adultery. Had he kept his pants on, he would not be in this mess.

That does not mean bearing. You're right, if Kobe was not so quick to fornicate with any groupie that passed his way, against the vows he undertook with his wife, he wouldn't be in this situation right now. That's like saying if the lady in question wasn't trying to boff any guy with an NBA paycheck that crossed her path, she wouldn't be in this situation. Would you object to that? I certainly would. Being an adulturer has no bearing on whether or not Kobe is a rapist just like the fact that the woman in question was promiscuous and liked to fornicate with professional athletes has no bearing on whether or not she was raped.





Originally posted by: LRB

The stigma is nothing compared to that of being a rape victim[/quote]

That's conjecture and it hasn't been established that she is indeed a rape "victim"


Originally posted by: LRB

This young women's life is totally wrecked. There are few possible things that could be worse than to be raped and then put on trial for having been raped.[/quote]

If she was indeed raped, then yes that would suck.


Originally posted by: LRB
Nothing Kobe will experience in soley being accused of being a rapist will compare with what this young woman will go through for having the audacity to not lay down and take it like a whore as you obviously feel that she should have. [/quote]


Another wildly inappropriate statement that makes continued discussion all the more puzzling and bizarre. If you can't keep your emotions in check long enough to keep yourself from making libelous statements such as that I feel rape victims should have lied down and taken it like whores then you seriously need to seek therapy or remove yourself from the discussion. Be an adult.





Originally posted by: LRB

The percentage of those charges which are brought which are false are extremely small compared to legitimate charges. [/quote]

What figures do you have to back this up? I've done some research on this and I've found figures ranging as low as 2 percent to as high as 50 percent of chagres of rape ending up being false. Obviously there is some political partisanship involved in both sides of this research. Regardless, as long as it is established that people have brought forth charges of rape and continue to do so that end up being false then I will grant Kobe his entitled presumption of innocence.



Originally posted by: LRB
And all I've called for is for justice to be done.[/quote]

No, you've basically called for Kobe to be fitted for his Colorado penal league jersey regardless of his guilt or lack thereof.


Originally posted by: LRB
However when you're rich, you can simply out spend the prosecution to get the verdict you want. Couple that with someone who is famous who manipulates the media to taint the jury pool with half truths. That's exactly what Kobe has done. [/quote]

There you go again with the rich thing. It would be one thing if you were merely expressing doubts about the probability of a fair trial with rich athletes or celebritys involved; but it becomes more and more apparant that you seem to bear some sort of grudge against these people becuase of their fame and wealth and any outcome of justice ultimately involves them serving time in jail regardless of there innocence.


Originally posted by: LRB
Now if you were simply defending Kobe I could respect that. But you have judged this woman guilty and called her the most reprehensible of names. [/quote]

LOL, If that ain't the pea calling the celery green, I dunno what is.

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
[quote]
Originally posted by: Epitome22
Here are your words:

"Free Kobe from this burdensome trial and leave this skank to her own devices."

So you're saying that you weren't implying that Kobe didn't rape her, you just hate sexually promiscuous people? Right.


????

This reply has no bearing on what was said before. I never said I wasn't implying that Kobe didn't rape her, and the fact that I find sexuall promiscous people reprehensible being brought up is completely out of left field. You've made this so vastly confusing that it's extremely diffucult to summarize but to do by best.

I do not believe Kobe is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, I believe the woman in question is a skank and I find that reprehensible but believe it has no bearing on whether or not she was raped. I do not subscribe to the notion that promiscous people deserve rape, have rape coming to them or question their capability of truly being raped based on the fact that they are promiscuous. That whole mode of thinking is based on the notion that rape victims are somehow responsible for their own rapes to some degree which I find absurd. if the woman in question was raped, her sexual promiscuity had no bearing on her probability of being raped. If she wasn't raped, sexual lifestyle has no bearing on whether she would pursue a matter like this for whatever reason.








[quote]
Originally posted by: kg_veteran<


If we're talking about the opinions of some people, I'm sure you're right, just like the opinions of some people are that Kobe couldn't have possibly raped this girl because she's a "skank" and because, as you put it, "girlfriend liked the cock."

In no way shape or form did I say or even imply that Kobe couldn't have raped this girl because she was a skank. This is something entirely of your own creation which I have thoroughly addressed earlier in this post. I would advise you to refrain from making such assinine accusations further. Simply by addressing this girl by a certain handle which thoroughly implies how I might think of her, and referring to her lifestyle with certain prose does not imply that I believe she is a liar based on those particular matters.

kg_veteran
08-12-2004, 02:57 PM
In no way shape or form did I say or even imply that Kobe couldn't have raped this girl because she was a skank.

Um, okay. Maybe you just like to call people skanks, even when you don't know whether that's true or not. No worse, I guess, than people calling Kobe a rapist without knowing if he is or not.


This is something entirely of your own creation which I have thoroughly addressed earlier in this post. I would advise you to refrain from making such assinine accusations further. Simply by addressing this girl by a certain handle which thoroughly implies how I might think of her, and referring to her lifestyle with certain prose does not imply that I believe she is a liar based on those particular matters.

I think it was a reasonable reading of your posts. I can't read your mind, but most people wouldn't label her a skank unless they were implying something by the label. If you weren't, fine. Either way, spare me the advice.

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

In no way shape or form did I say or even imply that Kobe couldn't have raped this girl because she was a skank.

Um, okay. Maybe you just like to call people skanks, even when you don't know whether that's true or not. No worse, I guess, than people calling Kobe a rapist without knowing if he is or not.


This is something entirely of your own creation which I have thoroughly addressed earlier in this post. I would advise you to refrain from making such assinine accusations further. Simply by addressing this girl by a certain handle which thoroughly implies how I might think of her, and referring to her lifestyle with certain prose does not imply that I believe she is a liar based on those particular matters.

I think it was a reasonable reading of your posts. I can't read your mind, but most people wouldn't label her a skank unless they were implying something by the label. If you weren't, fine. Either way, spare me the advice.


By calling her a skank, I was obviously making clear what I thought of her based solely on her lifestyle, groupieism and my personal partisan assessment of her lack of sexual morals or standards. In no way does calling her a skank imply that I felt she is dishonest, in the sense of bringing false rape charges or deserves/was asking for rape, in the sense of debating whether or not she was raped. Gathering that from calling her a "skank" is not a reasonable or responsible reading.

LRB
08-12-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by: Epitome22
I think Kobe's defense has put forth more than enough reasonable doubt that speaking of him as a criminal off-hand is unjust. I was originally behind this woman, but the newer evidence has led me to seriously doubt or question her believability. The sole remaining factor that kept me on the fence was the fact that she did not opt for civil suit, and instead pressed charges against him. Well it looks like the cash was on her mind.


Free Kobe from this burdensome trial and leave this skank to her own devices. If only there was a way to sue or press charges for false accusal.

Let's revisit your original post in this thread since you have IMO introduced so many restatements of your original post to be very confusing.

1) you pronounce that you've judged Kobe to be innnocent.
2) you've announced that you doubt the woman's credibility.
3) you've judged that the woman only had cash on her mind.
4) you've judged that Kobe needs to be free from this "burdensome trial", and are therefore declaring that you do not want to see the justice process work where Kobe is judged guilty or innocent by a jury based on legally presented evidence. You through rumors, innuendos, and half truths are fully confident that this is uneeded.
5) you call the victim a skank, a particularly vial and degrading term. Later posts you state that you base this on the rumors that she slept with every Bball player she could.
6) you state that the girl, the alledged rape victim is the one who should have charges brought against her while Kobe is let go.

You're pathetic. Sorry I have no respect at all for people who respect women so little. you want Kobe treated as innocent until proven guilty. Hell you want him treated as innocent and not even have a chance to be proven guilty. And yet you treat the women as guilty without having any chance to rebutt the accusations leveled against her.

kg_veteran
08-12-2004, 03:24 PM
By calling her a skank, I was obviously making clear what I thought of her based solely on her lifestyle, groupieism and my personal partisan assessment of her lack of sexual morals or standards. In no way does calling her a skank imply that I felt she is dishonest, in the sense of bringing false rape charges or deserves/was asking for rape, in the sense of debating whether or not she was raped. Gathering that from calling her a "skank" is not a reasonable or responsible reading.

Nonsense. The only reason for you to make clear what you thought of her sexual morality was that it affected, at least in part, your opinion regarding what actually happened in her encounter with Kobe Bryant.

KennyDirk
08-12-2004, 03:29 PM
You know the other day when the letter by the father was released, I wanted to see what idiots in LA were thinking so i check out this site lakerstalk.net, and read the Kobe Charged section, and it made me sick to my stomach to how much they abused this victim just because it was against Kobe. I don't know what happened that night, I do want to know, because I trully do feel bad for this victim, I actually really do believe they should continue this trial, even if they have been given set-backs, in the beginning I felt they had a case, but I don't think they were prepared for the star cast Kobe was going to have for his defense. I did respect Kobe, but I can also see him being guilty of this crime, however, as I said I can't really give my opinion as I do not really know what happened, all I know is what is being leaked out "accidently". Court cases like these shouldn't make "accidental" leakages. Yet it did happen, but I think on this particular topic, I think careful sensitivty should be use especially towards the alleged victim, and to an exten kobe bryant. But I will say this, I am glad this is not a lakersfan board where no utter respect is show.
Just my 2 cents

mary
08-12-2004, 04:02 PM
If Robbery Victims Were Treated Like Rape Victims

The victim's expensive suit, watch and nice home would be cited as tempting robbers beyond human endurance.

The victim's spouse, family, friends, and representatives of the victim's religion and favorite charities would be called in to testify that the victim frequently gave money willingly (even enjoyed it!).

The victim's name would be withheld because it is shameful to be robbed.

The victim would be blamed for having money or a home where robberies are known to occur.

The victim would be photographed nude by strangers in white coats.

If the victim knew the robber, it would be automatically assumed that the items or money taken were actually gifts by the victim to the robber.

The victim would be quizzed about how much the victim resisted the alleged robbery and required to show proof of struggle.

The victim's checkbook, bank records, and tax returns would be subpoenaed and submitted as evidence the victim has given, spent, and lost money and property foolishly before.

The robber would sincerely testify that since the victim left the door unlocked, the robber naturally thought the victim wanted to be robbed.

The robber would sincerely testify that it wasn't robbery. They were just having "rough giving" together.

Robbery victims would be suspected of going through all of the above just to get attention or to harm the honor of the robber.

Society would think none of the above is strange.

504 (of 506) JOHN RAMSEY April 16, 1991 at 22:14 Eastern (1929 characters)

(By John Ramsey, Copyright 1991, permission given to non-profit use as long as this by-line is included.)

John Ramsey, written Tuesday, April 16, 1991 at 10:00 am. First Presbyterian Church in Rochester in North Central Indiana.

Link (http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/youth/health/assault/robbery.htm)

mary
08-12-2004, 04:06 PM
By the way, the above post isn't meant to be a joke. There's nothing more disgusting to me than some of the unfortunate comments that have been made in this thread. I've considered several responses and have even gone through the trouble of typing a few out....but in the end I'm just going to trust that anyone that would publicly degrade a potential rape victim with such enthusiasm will eventually meet up with the bad karma he so richly deserves.

LRB
08-12-2004, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by: binbin

Originally posted by: LRB1st of all rape is not about the sex, it's about the power.
lrb, is that a verified scientific fact, proposed academic hypothesis, or a social/political conjecture?


Studies also show that it almost never happens that a woman falsely accuses a man of rape.
would you please provide some academic reference about that, if it is convenient for you?

thanks.

binbin rape being about power versus sex is a fairly well established and documented conclusion by profilers, people who study the pyschology of rapists. Information gathered from case studies and interviews with convicted rapists. It also makes since. Most people can buy sex, prostitutes or just use their hand.

As far as the figures on false accusations on rape, my come from watching documentaries on Court TV and the Discovery channel as well as experts on network and cable news. I've also had conversations with former DA's, law enforcement officers, and court psychologists. While there is not complete agreement among the experts, the vast majority place it at a very low number.

I'm booked up without time to do a lot of research until at lest the weekend, but a Google search on Rape and false accusations would probably be a good start. The FBI web site might also have some reports, www.fbi.gov.

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


Let's revisit your original post in this thread since you have IMO introduced so many restatements of your original post to be very confusing.

1) you pronounce that you've judged Kobe to be innnocent.

False. I said that I felt there was more than enough "reasonable doubt" that considering Kobe guilty outright as is done in this forum was unjust.



Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


2) you've announced that you doubt the woman's credibility.

False. I never said anything about her credibility or reliability as a witness. I merely stated that the newer evidence has led be doubt her more. I suppose it could be interpreted that me saying that her filing a civil suit compromised my faith in her as questioning her credibility.





Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]



3) you've judged that the woman only had cash on her mind.


True. Her opting for civil suit has led me to question whether or not she had financial motives, previously unquestioned.



Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


4) you've judged that Kobe needs to be free from this "burdensome trial", and are therefore declaring that you do not want to see the justice process work where Kobe is judged guilty or innocent by a jury based on legally presented evidence. You through rumors, innuendos, and half truths are fully confident that this is uneeded.


False. I want Kobe freed from the burdens of a trial that's based on very weak charges in my eyes. My opinion on Kobe's lack of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is based on the evidence that has been presented in the courtroom that has been made public, it has nothing to do with rumors or innuendos spread by some dorks that may have shared a lunch table with her in highschool.



Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


5) you call the victim a skank, a particularly vial and degrading term. Later posts you state that you base this on the rumors that she slept with every Bball player she could.


True. But I don't base it solely on the fact that she was an NBA groupie, more than enough stuff has come out about this girl that lean in a favor of a "skank" verdict. I suppose it's possible that it's all B.S. and part of some vast conspiracy to destroy her but I wouldn't call it probable.



Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


6) you state that the girl, the alledged rape victim is the one who should have charges brought against her while Kobe is let go.


True. If this rape allegation turns out to be false (no way to prove that) then there should be a way for the falsely accused to seek punitive damages.



Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


You're pathetic. Sorry I have no respect at all for people who respect women so little.

The feeling is mutual. I have equal contempt for conservative blowhards with such a perverse desire to see rich black athletes locked up, guilt be damned.



Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]

you want Kobe treated innocent until proven guilty.

What a concept!!!!!1111



Originally posted by: LRB
[quote]


Hell you want him treated as innocent and not even have a chance to be proven guilty. And yet you treat the women as guilty without having any chance to rebutt the accusations leveled against her.

I don't treat the woman as guilty any moreso than you treat Kobe as guilty.

Epitome22
08-12-2004, 06:30 PM
http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2003/0722.html


False Rape Charges Hurt Real Victims
July 22, 2003
by Wendy McElroy, mac@ifeminists.net


The media coverage of the felony sexual assault charge leveled at basketball star Kobe Bryant includes an element that has been rarely introduced into public discussion in recent years: Commentators are openly speculating on whether the accusation is false. Could the woman be lying?

And yet, whenever an unwitnessed crime is alleged, such speculation is valid. This is especially true if the allegation of crime is not unambiguously backed up by physical evidence. In a "he said/she said" scenario, the credibility of the accuser is key. This is why Western jurisprudence recognizes the right of the accused to face his or her accuser and ask questions in a court of law.

Our society has long acknowledged the existence of false accusations. In Biblical times, "bearing false witness" was recognized as a practice prevalent enough to be delineated as one of only 10 overriding social rules: the Ninth Commandment reads, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

In the Common Law tradition, upon which American jurisprudence draws heavily, the prevalence of false accusations contributed to "the presumption of innocence." The definition of this legal term is: "The indictment or formal charge against any person is not evidence of guilt. Indeed, the person is presumed by the law to be innocent."

Why? Because, in almost any circumstance, a certain percentage of people will lie. They will do so for a variety of motives. Sometimes there is a clear advantage to lying: for example, to gain money or the custody of children.

In his forthcoming biography Politicians, Partisans and Parasites: My Adventures in Cable News, Crossfire co-host Tucker Carlson discusses another motive that underlies some false accusations. In 2001, a woman he had never met alleged he had raped her in Louisville, a city he had never visited. After $14,000 in defensive legal bills, Carlson discovered that the woman had a chronic mental disorder. He decided not to sue for redress since it would further link his name with the word "rape."

Carlson even hesitated to speak out in his tell-all book because "the stigma of being accused of that kind of crime is so strong." Fortunately, he thought it taught a valuable lesson: "I always assumed, like every other journalist does, that all sex scandals are rooted in the truth, period. You may not have done precisely what you're accused of, but you did something." From bitter experience, he now knows differently.

Even charges that are later revealed to be false can devastate the accused. Consider journalist John Fund, who was arrested on charges of domestic violence and publicly excoriated for sexual misconduct. The charges were later dropped.

Columnist Eric Alterman recently published an article entitled "Who Framed John Fund?" There, Alterman chronicled the false accusations that haunt Fund. Once a high-profile presence on the Wall Street Journal's editorial page and a frequent television commentator, Fund now writes for the WSJ's far less prestigious Opinionjournal.com and is rarely on TV.

On his Web site, Fund posted a notarized affidavit from his accuser, stating, "Mr. Fund has not been abusive to me contrary to what I said in reports to the Jersey City police." He has also posted the transcript of a deposition in which she testifies under oath that she has "borderline personality disorder." Nevertheless, it is not clear whether Fund's career will recover.

How prevalent is the false reporting of sexual assault? Estimates vary widely.

According to much-cited feminist statistics, two percent of all reports are false. Susan Brownmiller's book Against Our Will (1975), for example, claims that false accusations in New York City dropped to that level after police departments began using policewomen to interview alleged victims. Elsewhere, the two percent figure appears without citation or with a vague attribution to "FBI" sources.

According to a study conducted by Eugene Kanin of Purdue University, the correct figure may rise to the 40 percent range. Kanin examined 109 rape complaints registered in a Midwestern city from 1978 to 1987. Of these, 45 were ultimately classified by the police as "false." Also based on police records, Kanin determined that 50 percent of the rapes reported at two major universities were "false."

Studies and statistics often vary and for legitimate reasons. For example, they may examine different populations. But such a dramatic variance -- two percent to 50 percent -- raises the question of whether political interests are at work.

It is understandable why some feminists might wish to understate the incidence of false reporting. In the '50s, women who reported sexual assault or domestic violence were dismissed. To acknowledge false reports as a real problem might undercut the gains made toward taking women seriously.

But if the charge against Kobe Bryant is proven false, a backlash against women reporting violence may occur. Bryant is accused of a crime that, under Colorado law, carries a prison term of four years to life or probation for 20 years to life. The highest level of evidence and credible testimony should be required before ruining a man's life in that manner.

Feminists should demand such a high level of proof. Otherwise, it is the man who appears to be the victim no matter how many times the accusation is repeated.


Wendy McElroy Home Page

ChickenLittle
08-13-2004, 01:22 AM
She couldn't win in court so she's filing a suit so she can get her money easier.

mapape
08-13-2004, 01:47 AM
I aggree with ChickenLittle for sure.

madape
08-13-2004, 09:51 AM
mapape?????

EricaLubarsky
08-13-2004, 10:24 AM
whats with all the spinoffs?

mavsman55
08-13-2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by: madape
mapape?????

Dang man that sucks. Make him at least change his avatar.

LRB
08-13-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by: mavsman55

Originally posted by: madape
mapape?????

Dang man that sucks. Make him at least change his avatar.

It's quite hard on us dyslexically challenged. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

LRB
08-13-2004, 01:26 PM
Kobe Accuser, Prosecution Seek to Ease Gag Order (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128891,00.html)

DENVER Prosecutors in the Kobe Bryant (search) sexual assault case have joined the NBA star's accuser in arguing that a strict gag order imposed by the judge makes it impossible for them to rebut rumors on the Web or allegations in released transcripts.

The woman's attorneys, John Clune and Lin Wood, say a defense witness has distributed derogatory information about their client on the Internet for months.

"Unrebutted, this `garbage' is allowed to be elevated in the mind of the public to the undeserved status of fact," they wrote in a filing released Thursday.

Defense attorneys have asked the judge to keep the order in place, saying the accuser's attorneys must be prevented from repeating "inflammatory" comments that threaten the chances for a fair trial.

Bryant, 25, has pleaded not guilty to felony sexual assault. He has said he had consensual sex with the employee of the Vail-area resort where he stayed last summer. The trial begins Aug. 27, with the last pretrial hearing scheduled for Monday.

If convicted, the Los Angeles Lakers (search) guard faces four years to life in prison or 20 years to life on probation, and a fine up to $750,000.


Earlier this month, District Judge Terry Ruckriegle (search) broadened his gag order to prohibit all lawyers, witnesses and others connected to the case from talking to reporters about the case.

Bryant's attorneys asked for the order after the judge released an edited transcript of a closed-door hearing in which an expert witness for the defense explained why she believes the alleged victim had sex with somebody within 15 hours after her encounter with Bryant. Clune has denied that claim.

Clune and Wood appeared on national television last week to criticize the judge and the court for gaffes that led to the release of the transcript and the accidental posting of their client's name on a state court Web site.

The attorneys also said in a court filing that the gag order must be eased so they can respond to "that devastating, one-sided account" of evidence contained in the transcript.

"As long as this unconstitutional gag order remains in effect, the terrible damage to the victim's right to a fair trial, to the victim's right to due process of law, to the victim's right to speak and reply, and to the victim's reputation, becomes irreparable," they wrote.

vinnieponte
08-13-2004, 01:28 PM
It was all about the money to begin with. There is sooo much evidence against her, right from the start. Yet I do blame Kobe, why the hell would you tap that, have you seen his wife.

LRB
08-13-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by: vinnieponte
It was all about the money to begin with. There is sooo much evidence against her, right from the start. Yet I do blame Kobe, why the hell would you tap that, have you seen his wife.

Only a small part of the evidence has been released and then only one side of it. Of course there are more than a few rumors going around on the internet. However you should go to snopes.com and read up on just how few internet rumors turn out to be true. So what facts do we know for sure? By for sure I mean that both sides appear to agree that these are the case.

1. Kobe's penis penetrated the alledged victims vagina. Both sides agree on this. Kobe says it was consential and the girl says it wasn't.

2. There were no witnesses to the event other than Kobe and the girl.

3. There was vaginal tearing in the girl's vagina.

4. Kobe admits to have cheated on his wife who he entered into a legal contract not to have sole sexual relations with.

5. Traces of semen not belonging to Kobe was found on the girls panties that she wore to the rape exam the next day after the alledged rape.

6. A grand jury indicted Kobe based on the evidence ruling that there was enough to bring the case to court. This does not mean that there is enough for a conviction or that there is not enough for a conviction.

7. There have been 3 leaks of information from the judges office in this case.

8. All parties involved in the trial are under a gag order not to comment to the press about the case.

Now I may have left out a couple of additional facts, but I believe that I have most of them. There is really no evidence here that is against the woman. Admitedly the additional semen is perplexing and certainly should be questioned to some degree. However it was found externally to her and not inside her as was Kobe's semen. So at worst the evidence is equal against Kobe and the woman, and best the majority is against Kobe. Now we only have seen portions of the evidence. Maybe with full evidence it will be clear the girl was fabricating the truth. Of course it may be clear that Kobe is a rapist. But I would like to know exactly what evidence that you are referring to in your highly ambigious statement.

Evilmav2
08-13-2004, 02:12 PM
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:Gj9jEwcxyWsJ:www.clarkson.edu/~esazonov/images/map.gif + http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:vNmE-VQfEMQJ:www.logicalchess.com/hayes/homepagecommon/ape.jpg
"MapApe"?

Hahaha... that's bizarre.

sturm und drang
08-13-2004, 03:26 PM
Vinnieponte wrote:

"There is sooo much evidence against her, right from the start."

I thought Kobe was on trial, not the victim? Oh, that's right: it's a rape trial. Vinnieponte has a point albeit not the point he meant to make.

vinnieponte
08-13-2004, 03:32 PM
meaning ???

LakerMania
08-13-2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by: sturm und drang


I thought Kobe was on trial, not the victim? Oh, that's right: it's a rape trial. Vinnieponte has a point albeit not the point he meant to make.


I thought the defendant was innocent until proven guilty? If she's already "the victim" then Kobe is already guilty. Oh that's right: he's a black man and she's a white girl.

vinnieponte
08-13-2004, 03:40 PM
ditto~ and secondly who the hell has sex after you've been raped, and lets say she wasn't raped, what kind of girl walks around with semen on her panties????

KennyDirk
08-13-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by: LakerMania
[quote]
Originally posted by: sturm und drang





I thought the defendant was innocent until proven guilty? If she's already "the victim" then Kobe is already guilty. Oh that's right: he's a black man and she's a white girl.

and your point being??????????????????????????????????????????

LRB
08-13-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by: LakerMania

Originally posted by: sturm und drang


I thought Kobe was on trial, not the victim? Oh, that's right: it's a rape trial. Vinnieponte has a point albeit not the point he meant to make.


I thought the defendant was innocent until proven guilty? If she's already "the victim" then Kobe is already guilty. Oh that's right: he's a black man and she's a white girl.

That she is a victim does not mean that Kobe is guilty. It is well documented that she received trama to her sexual organs. So she is definitely a victim of that trama. What color she and Kobe are is immaterial. However from your username it appears if you might care more that it's the superstar on your favorite sports team versus some dumb girl that you don't give a damn about if she was raped or not. Of course you seem to believe that the girl and not Kobe should be on trial by your comments. Or maybe you just mean to say that any black man should be able to rape all the white women he wants without repercussions.

LRB
08-13-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by: vinnieponte
ditto~ and secondly who the hell has sex after you've been raped, and lets say she wasn't raped, what kind of girl walks around with semen on her panties????

It could very well one who was raped by Kobe Bryant. Or it could be one who wasn't. However a proper court of law should fairly and justly decide that without giving preferential and illegal treatment to either the accused or the accusor.

LakerMania
08-13-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: LakerMania

Originally posted by: sturm und drang


I thought Kobe was on trial, not the victim? Oh, that's right: it's a rape trial. Vinnieponte has a point albeit not the point he meant to make.


I thought the defendant was innocent until proven guilty? If she's already "the victim" then Kobe is already guilty. Oh that's right: he's a black man and she's a white girl.

That she is a victim does not mean that Kobe is guilty. It is well documented that she received trama to her sexual organs. So she is definitely a victim of that trama.

That's about the lamest excuse I have ever heard so far. With that, you could just as well say that Kobe is "the victim" because of the monetary loss the encounter between him and this girl has cost him. I think most rational people can decipher what the use of the word "victim" really means here. i/expressions/anim_roller.gif

LRB
08-13-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by: LakerMania

Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: LakerMania

Originally posted by: sturm und drang


I thought Kobe was on trial, not the victim? Oh, that's right: it's a rape trial. Vinnieponte has a point albeit not the point he meant to make.


I thought the defendant was innocent until proven guilty? If she's already "the victim" then Kobe is already guilty. Oh that's right: he's a black man and she's a white girl.

That she is a victim does not mean that Kobe is guilty. It is well documented that she received trama to her sexual organs. So she is definitely a victim of that trama.


That's about the lamest excuse I have ever heard so far. With that, you could just as well say that Kobe is "the victim" because of the monetary loss the encounter between him and this girl has cost him. I think most rational people can decipher what the use of the word "victim" really means here. i/expressions/anim_roller.gif


Actually there has been enough evidence legally documented to bring charges for a crime of rape. There is not evenoug evidence legally documented to show any crime has been commited against Kobe. There may be at some time in the future, and yes then Kobe would be entitled to the title of victim. However that time is not now. Most rational people can discern the term vicitm here. Heck even Kobe's lawyers can discern it. One of their main strategies is to try and cast doubt that the damage was done by someone else. When there is strong evidence that a crime was commited, and there is in this case, then the girl deserves the right to be called the victim. That doesn't mean that Kobe is automatically presumed guilty. It's just that the girl is not automatically presumed guilty of lying or falsefying her rape. That there was physical damage to here of a sexual nature is an undisputed fact in this case. Who did it may be disputed, but not that it was done.

LakerMania
08-13-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: LakerMania

Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: LakerMania

Originally posted by: sturm und drang


I thought Kobe was on trial, not the victim? Oh, that's right: it's a rape trial. Vinnieponte has a point albeit not the point he meant to make.


I thought the defendant was innocent until proven guilty? If she's already "the victim" then Kobe is already guilty. Oh that's right: he's a black man and she's a white girl.

That she is a victim does not mean that Kobe is guilty. It is well documented that she received trama to her sexual organs. So she is definitely a victim of that trama.


That's about the lamest excuse I have ever heard so far. With that, you could just as well say that Kobe is "the victim" because of the monetary loss the encounter between him and this girl has cost him. I think most rational people can decipher what the use of the word "victim" really means here. i/expressions/anim_roller.gif


Actually there has been enough evidence legally documented to bring charges for a crime of rape. There is not evenoug evidence legally documented to show any crime has been commited against Kobe. There may be at some time in the future, and yes then Kobe would be entitled to the title of victim. However that time is not now. Most rational people can discern the term vicitm here. Heck even Kobe's lawyers can discern it. One of their main strategies is to try and cast doubt that the damage was done by someone else. When there is strong evidence that a crime was commited, and there is in this case, then the girl deserves the right to be called the victim. That doesn't mean that Kobe is automatically presumed guilty. It's just that the girl is not automatically presumed guilty of lying or falsefying her rape. That there was physical damage to here of a sexual nature is an undisputed fact in this case. Who did it may be disputed, but not that it was done.

This is just horrible. By the same token you could call a person a victim if they had rug burns due to rough sex or some scratches on their neck due to rough sex. I don't think anyone not involved in the case knows as of yet the exact amount of trauma she received. We do know however that she did not feel she needed to go to a hospital after her encounter with Kobe. We also know that there was not enough discomfort down there to prevent her from having sex with another person after being with Kobe.
The labeling of her as a victim is as wrong as me saying that Kobe is the victim.

LRB
08-13-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by: LakerMania


This is just horrible. By the same token you could call a person a victim if they had rug burns due to rough sex or some scratches on their neck due to rough sex. I don't think anyone not involved in the case knows as of yet the exact amount of trauma she received. We do know however that she did not feel she needed to go to a hospital after her encounter with Kobe. We also know that there was not enough discomfort down there to prevent her from having sex with another person after being with Kobe.
The labeling of her as a victim is as wrong as me saying that Kobe is the victim.

1st of all you statement is highly sexist and misogynistic. It's incredible the lack of respect that you show for women in general especially those who have been sexually abused, violated, and raped. God forbid that any woman close to you gets raped. You'd brobably just say "Get over it, I'm not going to belive a word out of your mouth until a jury finds you truthful. In fact, I won't even wait for that. The 1st rumor that I hear that leads me to believe you wrong will irrevocably decide me against you."

Now in this young lady's case there was sufficient evidence that rape was commited to justify bringing the accused to trial. All but the most hardened misogynists would give this young lady at least a modicum of respect and civility until it was proven beyond a reseaonable doubt that she was lying. That would mean that they would at the very least listen to her side and honestly evaluate her side for truthfulness. However, you seem inclined to wait for her side to be told before making your rash and hateful judgements of her. Shame on you.

You have the audacity to make the most moronic and hateful of statements: "We also know that there was not enough discomfort down there to prevent her from having sex with another person after being with Kobe." This is an out and out lie. And you should be ashamed for espousing something like that unless you personally slept with her during the time frame in question, which I highly doubt. Accusations have been made that this was the case. However this is far from being conclusively proven. In fact the possibility is still to be conclusively proven. The young woman and the prosecution have been given no opportunity to respond publicly to these accusation. And yet biggoted fools like yourself insist in a public character assasination of a woman whose only offense has been to accuse the superstar on your basketball team of raping her. You owe her and the entire world a humble apology for you atrocious and unconscionable behavior.

LakerMania
08-13-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: LakerMania


This is just horrible. By the same token you could call a person a victim if they had rug burns due to rough sex or some scratches on their neck due to rough sex. I don't think anyone not involved in the case knows as of yet the exact amount of trauma she received. We do know however that she did not feel she needed to go to a hospital after her encounter with Kobe. We also know that there was not enough discomfort down there to prevent her from having sex with another person after being with Kobe.
The labeling of her as a victim is as wrong as me saying that Kobe is the victim.

1st of all you statement is highly sexist and misogynistic. It's incredible the lack of respect that you show for women in general especially those who have been sexually abused, violated, and raped. God forbid that any woman close to you gets raped. You'd brobably just say "Get over it, I'm not going to belive a word out of your mouth until a jury finds you truthful. In fact, I won't even wait for that. The 1st rumor that I hear that leads me to believe you wrong will irrevocably decide me against you."

Now in this young lady's case there was sufficient evidence that rape was commited to justify bringing the accused to trial. All but the most hardened misogynists would give this young lady at least a modicum of respect and civility until it was proven beyond a reseaonable doubt that she was lying. That would mean that they would at the very least listen to her side and honestly evaluate her side for truthfulness. However, you seem inclined to wait for her side to be told before making your rash and hateful judgements of her. Shame on you.

You have the audacity to make the most moronic and hateful of statements: "We also know that there was not enough discomfort down there to prevent her from having sex with another person after being with Kobe." This is an out and out lie. And you should be ashamed for espousing something like that unless you personally slept with her during the time frame in question, which I highly doubt. Accusations have been made that this was the case. However this is far from being conclusively proven. In fact the possibility is still to be conclusively proven. The young woman and the prosecution have been given no opportunity to respond publicly to these accusation. And yet biggoted fools like yourself insist in a public character assasination of a woman whose only offense has been to accuse the superstar on your basketball team of raping her. You owe her and the entire world a humble apology for you atrocious and unconscionable behavior.



That was an absolutely pathetic rant. I'm not sure if even you could swallow that total piece of garbage once you have come down from your wild-eyed, lathered up state.





I loved this part best.


You have the audacity to make the most moronic and hateful of statements: "We also know that there was not enough discomfort down there to prevent her from having sex with another person after being with Kobe." This is an out and out lie.

It is a fact. A fact that there was not enough discomfort in her area to prevent her from having sex soon after allegedly being raped by Kobe. This has already been established, unless the semen found in her panties was planted. How you could even bring up this point for debate is just an example of how much you love to hear yourself ramble on. How you could say this is a lie is just plain sad. Nobody knows how much discomfort, if any, she felt except her but the FACT is it wasn't enough to prevent her from having sex soon after being with Kobe, Why? Because she did, plain and simple.

KennyDirk
08-13-2004, 11:11 PM
hey Lakermania...quick question...lets say ur sister, gf, ex-wife, or whatever alleges ur fav star raped her...would u call her a victim or skank? or star victim or skank? lets say u love her dearly, but she also has a past of sleeping with others, again call your flesh and blood skanky?

No alterior motives here, just an honest opinionated question, would love to know.

LRB
08-14-2004, 12:36 AM
It is a fact. A fact that there was not enough discomfort in her area to prevent her from having sex soon after allegedly being raped by Kobe. This has already been established, unless the semen found in her panties was planted. How you could even bring up this point for debate is just an example of how much you love to hear yourself ramble on. How you could say this is a lie is just plain sad. Nobody knows how much discomfort, if any, she felt except her but the FACT is it wasn't enough to prevent her from having sex soon after being with Kobe, Why? Because she did, plain and simple.


This is in no way, shape, nor form an established fact that she had sex after the alledged rape and before the rape exam. This is pure and simple conjecture based on a single piece of evidence which has a multitude of possible explanations with her having sex in that time frame only one of many explanations which might account for that semen being present on her underwear. Remember it was on her underwear and not inside her that the nonKobe semen was found. Also remember that kobe semen was found inside her. That none of the 2nd semen was found in her is a fact which offers a serious contradictory question to you speculative assumption that she had sex after the alledged rape. That is why is is important to hear all relevant facts before jumping to some prejudiced and uninformed decision which you did. Perhaps your time might be better spent educating yourself further on the differences between fact and conjecture rather that posting uniformed and slanderous statements about women who have said that they have been raped and with whom a grand jury has agreed.