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endtroducing
08-18-2004, 04:59 PM
I was thinking this over today...don't get me wrong, I love Marquis Daniels, but I really think Stackhouse deserves to start over him. Stackhouse, at this point, is a MUCH more complete player than Daniels...and a better decision maker, scorer, driver, etc. Imagining Stackhouse driving into the lane, with Dirk, Finley and Terry on the perimeter waiting to rain three pointers is frightening. Starting Stackhouse moves Marquis to the sixth man slot, which is perfect for him. Also, in order to keep Stack from being injured, Howard has a great way into the game as his backup.

PG: Terry
SG: Finley
SF: Stackhouse
PF: Dirk
C: Dampier

thoughts?

grndmstr_c
08-18-2004, 05:03 PM
The addition of Dampier to the starting lineup makes me much more comfortable about the prospect of having Fin and Stack on the floor at the same time. Given that, I would certainly hope that if we go into the season with our current stable of wing players that they are all given a fair opportunity to earn a starting spot and ample PT. May the best man win.

kg_veteran
08-18-2004, 05:13 PM
Exactly.

Let Stackhouse, Finley, Howard, and Daniels compete for starting jobs. The best 2 start, the other 2 come off the bench. I think that ends up being Finley and Stackhouse, but I personally don't care which 2 start and which 2 come off the bench, as long as we aren't giving a starting spot to Finley because of respect, to Daniels because of some silly offseason promise, or to Stackhouse because we don't want him to be a cancer. Make everybody earn their spot.

Heck, Terry should have to beat out Daniels, too. And Dampier should have to beat out Bradley and Booth.

And Dirk should have to beat out Alan Henderson. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

LRB
08-18-2004, 05:26 PM
The only problem with the competition aspect that I see KG, is that with Nellie the competition will almost all be offense and not defense and rebounding. I don't want everyone of those 4 guys jacking up tons of shots to get more minutes from Nellie all year while shutting out our best offensive player Dirk. Also I don't want them slacking on D and rebounding to have more energy for offense.

Sinn Fein
08-18-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Exactly.

Let Stackhouse, Finley, Howard, and Daniels compete for starting jobs. The best 2 start, the other 2 come off the bench. I think that ends up being Finley and Stackhouse, but I personally don't care which 2 start and which 2 come off the bench, as long as we aren't giving a starting spot to Finley because of respect, to Daniels because of some silly offseason promise, or to Stackhouse because we don't want him to be a cancer. Make everybody earn their spot.

Heck, Terry should have to beat out Daniels, too. And Dampier should have to beat out Bradley and Booth.

And Dirk should have to beat out Alan Henderson. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif



Problem is, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it. Finley will start as long as Nellie is coach. He will NOT put fin on the bench regardless if he should.

I agree, I want Stack starting. Unlike some here, I am not a huge fan of Quis. IMO Quis is overrated. His D is lazy, he won't even stick up his hand. PG is out of the question, he's a black hole who looks to shoot, then shoot, then mabye fake a pass and shoot i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

That said, he is a good slasher, good scorer, however, I prefer him off the bench. A 5 of Damp, Dirk, Stack, Fin, Terry is what I would run. A second 5 of: Shawn, Booth, Josh, Quis, Harris could be used at times IMO.

samoan-maverick
08-18-2004, 05:33 PM
I dont think we paid Marquis that much to be a backup, Besides I can really see this guy as a huge star. I'd start Marquis and Finley. And I dont see Stackhouse in a Mavs Jersey by camp.

Sinn Fein
08-18-2004, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by: samoan-maverick
I dont think we paid Marquis that much to be a backup, Besides I can really see this guy as a huge star. I'd start Marquis and Finley. And I dont see Stackhouse in a Mavs Jersey by camp.

Quis will never be a huge star. He can only improve so much to as he is now.

rakesh.s
08-18-2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by: Sinn Fein

Originally posted by: samoan-maverick
I dont think we paid Marquis that much to be a backup, Besides I can really see this guy as a huge star. I'd start Marquis and Finley. And I dont see Stackhouse in a Mavs Jersey by camp.

Quis will never be a huge star. He can only improve so much to as he is now.

how do you know that?? have you been scouting players for years?

Sinn Fein
08-18-2004, 05:56 PM
Lets look at the facts. You don't get undrafted for no reason. Sure that was a mistake, but to have the ability to become a STAR, he would get drafted. Don't say "But Ben Wallace.." thats just asinine. Wallace is a monster on D, something which is more easily overlooked by scouts, but O potential? No. So where can Quis improve? Can he become a awesome rebounder? No. Scorer? He can get a better shot, but thats it. To say he can become a star is a incredulous strech.

DubOverdose
08-18-2004, 05:57 PM
Stackhouse should start. I think he would make the offense VERY balanced. We'd have someone to penetrate, dunk in traffic, score in the post, some 3pt shooters, lots of midrange...everything would be covered. Terry and Dampier should bolster the defense, so I doubt defense will be nearly as bad as it was last year.

endtroducing
08-18-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by: Sinn Fein
Lets look at the facts. You don't get undrafted for no reason. Sure that was a mistake, but to have the ability to become a STAR, he would get drafted. Don't say "But Ben Wallace.." thats just asinine. Wallace is a monster on D, something which is more easily overlooked by scouts, but O potential? No. So where can Quis improve? Can he become a awesome rebounder? No. Scorer? He can get a better shot, but thats it. To say he can become a star is a incredulous strech.

equally as asinine to say that after a guy's rookie year. who thought Dirk was going to be the player he was after his awful first season?

don't say shit that you can't back up in any way. and for the record, he was a fantastic defensive player in college...he put the lockdown on many of the guys in the league now (Prince, Howard), and has Auburn's all-time steals record. he can be just as good now as he was then...and, uh, since when are SGs 'awesome' rebounders anyways? there's only, like, one SG in the top 50 rebounds category. check yourself.

GP
08-18-2004, 06:08 PM
I don't really care who starts as long as they earn the right. Nothing like earning your job. I think that the four will probably wind up splitting time to maximize energy. If each average between 20 and 30 minutes a game then that would be great. The depth will be nice in case someone gets a mild injury. They can sit out and the Mavs can still win. Hopefully, this will keep everyone healthy for the entire year.

mavsman55
08-18-2004, 06:32 PM
As long as Dirk still gets 20+ shots per game I don't care who else starts. A starting lineup of of Terry/Finley/Stack/Nowitzki/Dampier is solid offensively and defensively. We just have to hope that Stack doesn't try and take over any more games like he's been doing his whole career.

MavKikiNYC
08-18-2004, 06:56 PM
I like the competition model, but the lineup I'd like to see shake out would be:

Terry
Finley
Howard
Dirk
Dampier

Daniels as sixth.

Stackhouse traded.

Better defenders, both on the perimeter, and in the paint. Strong rebounding across the frontcourt, and a natural rebounding advantage at the 2. The bulk of the scoring falling on Dirk's shoulders, supported by an outside shooter (Fin), a penetrator (Terry), a junkballer (Howard) and a low-post option (Dampier), with a hungry slasher off the bench (Daniels).

Murphy3
08-18-2004, 07:10 PM
I also like Howard as a starter. Assuming Fin is a starter, it is likely that the Mavs will need a slasher starting at the 3 spot.

dude1394
08-18-2004, 07:17 PM
Logically having stack off the bench makes sense, it balances out the team and puts more experience on the second team with probably 'quis and harris. But that being said coming off the bench is a tough place to be if you are the better player. Let the chips fall where they may.. Nellie shouldn't think so damn much.

sike
08-18-2004, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
I like the competition model, but the lineup I'd like to see shake out would be:

Terry
Finley
Howard
Dirk
Dampier

Daniels as sixth.

Stackhouse traded.

Better defenders, both on the perimeter, and in the paint. Strong rebounding across the frontcourt, and a natural rebounding advantage at the 2. The bulk of the scoring falling on Dirk's shoulders, supported by an outside shooter (Fin), a penetrator (Terry), a junkballer (Howard) and a low-post option (Dampier), with a hungry slasher off the bench (Daniels).
Kiki, you hit this one out of the park.....forget all this talk of Daniels being guaranteed a starting spot...he has not earned the right to push Finley out of his natural position(two time all star)...and lineup of terry/finley/howard/dirk/damp puts the load on Dirk and can play serious D. Daniels time may come....but why so soon? make him earn it with a great year off the bench. Terry/Howard/Damp makes for a pretty good defensive group as well.

DubOverdose
08-18-2004, 09:03 PM
Remember that Daniels got the starting nod after Howard went in to a slump, so its hard to tell who will be a starter (if either of them) if they both play well.

FilthyFinMavs
08-18-2004, 09:11 PM
Was that a slump or was that Howard being injured? I'd start Howard at the 3. He's a legit 3.

endtroducing
08-18-2004, 09:17 PM
so is Marquis...that's the main reason why his jumper is so shaky right now. he's used to being a slasher himself.

FilthyFinMavs
08-18-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by: endtroducing
so is Marquis...that's the main reason why his jumper is so shaky right now. he's used to being a slasher himself.

Marquis is a 3? I doubt. I think when you look for a starting 3 on this team you want a guy in the 6'8 range. I'm well aware Josh isn't 6'8 but neither is Stack, Marquis or Finley but what Josh has over them is not only rebounding but his reach. He's alot longer than those guys and that can make up for his height. I still remember him swatting Peja's jumper last season without even jumping.

sike
08-18-2004, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
Was that a slump or was that Howard being injured? I'd start Howard at the 3. He's a legit 3.
if they were to start as talent demands for each position I think it would follow the Terry/Finley/Howard/Dirk/Damp lineup. I think the better argument is between Finley/Stackhouse for starting 2 not Finley/Daniels....Stack has proven much more than young and gun happy daniels.

V2M
08-18-2004, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
I like the competition model, but the lineup I'd like to see shake out would be:

Terry
Finley
Howard
Dirk
Dampier

Daniels as sixth.

Stackhouse traded.

Better defenders, both on the perimeter, and in the paint. Strong rebounding across the frontcourt, and a natural rebounding advantage at the 2. The bulk of the scoring falling on Dirk's shoulders, supported by an outside shooter (Fin), a penetrator (Terry), a junkballer (Howard) and a low-post option (Dampier), with a hungry slasher off the bench (Daniels).


Agree 100% to all except Stack getting traded. He's a great insurance policy going into the playoffs considering Fin's age and his oft-injured hamstring.

endtroducing
08-18-2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Originally posted by: endtroducing
so is Marquis...that's the main reason why his jumper is so shaky right now. he's used to being a slasher himself.

Marquis is a 3? I doubt. I think when you look for a starting 3 on this team you want a guy in the 6'8 range. I'm well aware Josh isn't 6'8 but neither is Stack, Marquis or Finley but what Josh has over them is not only rebounding but his reach. He's alot longer than those guys and that can make up for his height. I still remember him swatting Peja's jumper last season without even jumping.

he played SF for four years in college. he dominated josh, and he handed tayshaun his shit. did you see him in the NCAAs against Wake?

his problem was getting moved around in the lineup so much, do to the lack of Auburn's depth...he just didn't play enough games at one position for scouts to get a handle on him. he played alot of SF, but he also played SG, and even center a few times.

Day1MavsFan
08-18-2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
I like the competition model, but the lineup I'd like to see shake out would be:

Terry
Finley
Howard
Dirk
Dampier

Daniels as sixth.

Stackhouse traded.

Better defenders, both on the perimeter, and in the paint. Strong rebounding across the frontcourt, and a natural rebounding advantage at the 2. The bulk of the scoring falling on Dirk's shoulders, supported by an outside shooter (Fin), a penetrator (Terry), a junkballer (Howard) and a low-post option (Dampier), with a hungry slasher off the bench (Daniels).
Kiki, you hit this one out of the park.....forget all this talk of Daniels being guaranteed a starting spot...he has not earned the right to push Finley out of his natural position(two time all star)...and lineup of terry/finley/howard/dirk/damp puts the load on Dirk and can play serious D. Daniels time may come....but why so soon? make him earn it with a great year off the bench. Terry/Howard/Damp makes for a pretty good defensive group as well.

I agree about Daniels not having earned it yet. So, I'm on board with him being sixth man. But I do think he's better than Fin, if the last 20 games was any indication. He can create his own shot, shoots a real nice %, rebounds, passes pretty well, and plays defense better than Fin (although that's not saying much). Where Fin is better is shooting the jumper. For this reason, I like Fin in the game with players that can take it inside and hit the open man. Quis will slash and create when there are bench players in the game that can't spot up so well. He can hog the ball while he's in there with the 2nd squad. That should keep him happy, 'cuz he'll get more looks.

MikeB
08-19-2004, 09:04 AM
With the youth on this team I can see Daniels getting the starting nod as the SG and Stackhouse (if they don't move him) coming off the bench to become the next great 6th man. I mean do we really want two 2nd year guys and a rookie as our bench? That seems kinda risky to me...then again since we all know who our coach is I doubt we have 5 regular starters...there will be games where Nellie starts Josh at the 3 and moves Fin to the 2 for the matchups but unless there is an injury he probably wouldn't start Stack if he makes him the 6th man.

endtroducing
08-19-2004, 09:10 AM
I was thinking Nellie might let Marquis be that swingman off of the bench, playing SG/SF, maybe even some point...while making Howard the incumbent at SF. I don't know, though, that's just my guess.

dalmations202
08-19-2004, 09:36 AM
This is just my opinion? But, trade two of the four (all are SG/SF tweeners) --- doesn't really matter which two, for a true all-star type SF. Then have a 3 man rotation at the SG/SF positions. That way you can cover each of the different types of players that you will come up against.

Male30Dan
08-19-2004, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by: dalmations202
This is just my opinion? But, trade two of the four (all are SG/SF tweeners) --- doesn't really matter which two, for a true all-star type SF. Then have a 3 man rotation at the SG/SF positions. That way you can cover each of the different types of players that you will come up against.

I dont know if this is just your opinion or not... You have to be the person that makes that decision! i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

vinnieponte
08-19-2004, 12:38 PM
I go for Daniels. I believe stackhouse is on the way out on a future trade to rim the roster. Daniels has proven himself to mesh with finley, dirk, howard & nelly.

rakesh.s
08-19-2004, 12:52 PM
stackhouse needs to go

daniels and howard start at SG and SF and finley can come off the bench at both positions for 30 mins..finley is just a spot shooter now and he can provide a spark off the bench..daniels gives you playmaking,rebounding and slashing...josh howard gives you the offensive rebounding and defense..those are the skills you need to complement dirk and dampier

this way finley is guaranteed to stay fresh throughout the year..no more 40 mins a game and no more hamstring injuries

minutes are indicated within the parentheses
projected starters:

pg - terry(30)
sg - daniels(33)
sf - howard(33)
pf - dirk(35)
C - dampier(33)

bench: booth & bradley(28 combined mins at pf and center, more mins to booth if he is better than bradley)
finley(30)
harris(18)
and one or two shooters(sort of like kyle korver or pat garrity) acquired by trading stack(bench warmers or come in if the team
is struggling from the field)

dalmations202
08-19-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by: rakesh.s
stackhouse needs to go

daniels and howard start at SG and SF and finley can come off the bench at both positions for 30 mins..finley is just a spot shooter now and he can provide a spark off the bench..daniels gives you playmaking,rebounding and slashing...josh howard gives you the offensive rebounding and defense..those are the skills you need to complement dirk and dampier

this way finley is guaranteed to stay fresh throughout the year..no more 40 mins a game and no more hamstring injuries

minutes are indicated within the parentheses
projected starters:

pg - terry(30)
sg - daniels(33)
sf - howard(33)
pf - dirk(35)
C - dampier(33)

bench: booth & bradley(28 combined mins at pf and center, more mins to booth if he is better than bradley)
finley(30)
harris(18)
and one or two shooters(sort of like kyle korver or pat garrity) acquired by trading stack(bench warmers or come in if the team
is struggling from the field)

I wouldn't complain about this lineup too much, especially if Josh proves he can guard the big SF's in the league.
I don't think Josh gets 33 min a game, and I think you need a better SF to comb with Josh, but not bad.

DNNF
08-19-2004, 02:32 PM
Personally, I would like this line up the best

PG - Harris. - We need a true PG here. Someone would pass first mentality. I think of Terry, and Daniel is more of a tweener 1/2 who likes to shoot first. These two can come off the bench together to replace Fin and Harris)
SG - Fin
SF - Howard. We need him here as an energy player since Eddie left, and for defensive purpose. Stack can come off the bench.
PF - Dirk, with Booth can play about 5 to 10 mins a game at this position.
Center - Dampier and Bradley.

Objective J
08-19-2004, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by: endtroducing

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
Originally posted by: endtroducing so is Marquis...that's the main reason why his jumper is so shaky right now. he's used to being a slasher himself. Marquis is a 3? I doubt. I think when you look for a starting 3 on this team you want a guy in the 6'8 range. I'm well aware Josh isn't 6'8 but neither is Stack, Marquis or Finley but what Josh has over them is not only rebounding but his reach. He's alot longer than those guys and that can make up for his height. I still remember him swatting Peja's jumper last season without even jumping. he played SF for four years in college. he dominated josh, and he handed tayshaun his shit. did you see him in the NCAAs against Wake? his problem was getting moved around in the lineup so much, do to the lack of Auburn's depth...he just didn't play enough games at one position for scouts to get a handle on him. he played alot of SF, but he also played SG, and even center a few times.

I agree with FFM. I would say 6'7" is kind of small for a SF in the NBA but serviceable. I have no doubt that Daniels at 6'6" could play a 3 or a 4 in college, but in the pros, he's just too small. 6'6" is way undersized for the 3 spot. Josh at 6'7" with long arms is our only true SF with Najera leaving. Stackhouse off the bench would be perfect. That way he can be a primary scorer rather than a third or fouth option in the starting lineup.

grndmstr_c
08-19-2004, 02:59 PM
Josh at 6'7" with long arms was our only true SF before Najera left.

DubOverdose
08-19-2004, 03:01 PM
If Stackhouse accepts his role (whatever it may be) and isn't a locker room cancer, I think it is definitely best to keep him. He could be a great scorer off the bench. Finley and Stackhouse could handle the offensive load if Dirk were to go out for any reason. Stackhouse could also fill in Finley's role if Finley is injured or slumping after an injury. He could be an incredible insurance policy and help spread the defense since it is a mistake if any team leaves Finley, Dirk, Terry, or Stackhouse open.

Objective J
08-19-2004, 03:05 PM
Not that this has anything to do with Stackhouse, but Najera played the 3 spot a lot when Raef was center and dirk was playing the 4. Avtually we usually won the game when Najera started at the three. Granted that was before he bulked up and hurt his knee, but I still consider him a PF that is capable of guarding a SF. Neverless, he is gone, so no use in debating what he is capable of.

rakesh.s
08-19-2004, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by: DubOverdose
If Stackhouse accepts his role (whatever it may be) and isn't a locker room cancer, I think it is definitely best to keep him. He could be a great scorer off the bench. Finley and Stackhouse could handle the offensive load if Dirk were to go out for any reason. Stackhouse could also fill in Finley's role if Finley is injured or slumping after an injury. He could be an incredible insurance policy and help spread the defense since it is a mistake if any team leaves Finley, Dirk, Terry, or Stackhouse open.

from all indications, it doesn't look like stack will accept his role...he wants the ball and he wants to shoot..hell after he got traded, he stated right away that he feels like that he should be a starter

guys like this need to be shipped off to teams like the clippers,warriors,bobcats or hawks...they can have a team all to themselves and shoot 30 times a night and lead the league in scoring

DubOverdose
08-19-2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by: rakesh.s

Originally posted by: DubOverdose
If Stackhouse accepts his role (whatever it may be) and isn't a locker room cancer, I think it is definitely best to keep him. He could be a great scorer off the bench. Finley and Stackhouse could handle the offensive load if Dirk were to go out for any reason. Stackhouse could also fill in Finley's role if Finley is injured or slumping after an injury. He could be an incredible insurance policy and help spread the defense since it is a mistake if any team leaves Finley, Dirk, Terry, or Stackhouse open.

from all indications, it doesn't look like stack will accept his role...he wants the ball and he wants to shoot..hell after he got traded, he stated right away that he feels like that he should be a starter

guys like this need to be shipped off to teams like the clippers,warriors,bobcats or hawks...they can have a team all to themselves and shoot 30 times a night and lead the league in scoring

I think you misunderstood his statement. The Mavs supposedly asked him if he would accept a role as the 6th man, and he said yes. He also said that he thought he should be a starter. I would be worried if he didn't think he should be a starter. He's been in the NBA for a long time and started almost every game he's played in. Marquis and Josh Howard also probably think they should be starters, but that doesn't mean they will lose any sleep over not starting. Stackhouse is definitely a quality player, deserving of a starting position, but to have a veteran scorer coming off the bench is also very important to this team.