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pepperfletch
08-19-2004, 09:08 PM
Just out by Fish on DB.com...Not bad huh?
Going Long
Sources: Damp Offered 6-Year Deal

By Mike Fisher and David Lord -- DallasBasketball.com
The contract being formed by the Mavs with sign-and-trade target Erick Dampier, DallasBasketball.com has learned, is similar in structure to the seven-year, $70 million deal once given center Raef LaFrentz, except with a team opt-out for the final year.
Thatís good news compared to the sour-grapes-driven gossip that has been oozing out of New York. But itís still six years and around $10 million annually, so while the money might not be too out of whack, the years represent a major roll of the dice.
There were suggestions coming from the Knicks neighborhood (which had hoped to steal Dampier from the Warriors) that Dallas had been sucked into discussing a seven-year deal, starting at $9M per year, with max 12.5% raises each year, for a total contract of over $86M. A face-saving move from the New Yawkers?
ďThatís way too high,íí says a source familiar with discussions between the Mavs and the Damp camp. ďItís more like what LaFrentzí deal was.íí
It can be argued that an average of $10 mil a year is simply the going rate for top-notch centers. The six years, though, is a tougher argument to sell us on.
Our best guess is that such a deal(s) will have to wait until next week when Laettner's 60-day waiting period expires, and then will likely be structured as follows:


Mavs trade Laettner, Najera, and cash for Dampier.

Mavs trade #1 pick (using trade exception from the Walker-to-Atlanta package deal) for Eschmeyer.

Mavs trade #1 pick (using trade exception from the Walker-from-Boston package deal) for Dickau.
We donít believe Dallas is giving up too much in talent. But now letís look at the contractual price tag:
When we first began mentioning Dampier as someone we wanted the Mavs to pursue, it was in the context of an asking price that had dropped to MLE level, with a first-year salary of $4.9M. At that price, we felt that the Mavs should try to obtain him for a 3-year deal at about $7M per year, which would have been equivalent to a MLE for one year followed by two years at $8M per year (thus, 21 total). That number could certainly have worked as a practical deal if it came in a tad higher, even. With his record of inconsistent play in the league, we felt that the risk would be reasonable on such a deal.
In the version we now get from our sources, the Mavs are taking on $60-to-$70M for Dampier, $10M for Eschmeyer, $1M for Dickau, and giving up Laettner's expiring deal, plus 2 picks, plus cash. On top of that, the Mavs are further clogging up the roster with undesirables as to talent (Eschmeyer, Dickau) who appear to have no value to this team, and whose presence will create an even worse logjam. They also lost a usable piece in Najera.
At six years, the net result even at this price will be that the Mavs are committing the future of their franchise to Erick Dampier. (Erick Dampier, the franchise key?) The financial commitment remains large. (Wasnít that commitment to Raef, since dispatched to Boston, considered large, too?) And the roster logjam would compound that price. Fiscal responsibility gets abandoned entirely. If Dampier isn't an All-Star type for a reasonably long period of time (a tall requirement), the risk on this deal seems high.
In addition, hasn't this franchise seen up close the folly of doling out huge money for short term success? Although not all these deals were negotiated by the Mavs, the Mavs have been in recent years been required to pay huge over-payments (based on their on-court production here) to such players as Danny Fortson, Raef LaFrentz, Tariq Abdul-Wahad, and others. Nick Van Exel and Antawn Jamison were traded because their contracts made them a liability IN SPITE OF their on-court production.
We remain convinced that in terms of talent exchanged, and needs filled, there is nothing about this deal not to like Other than the financial terms, the deal hasn't changed since we thought it was so great; you still have Dampier coming (along with some spare parts) and Najera and Laettner leaving.
So the only objection possible in our minds has to be the money (to some degree) and the years (to a great degree). And since it's only a money objection, then if Cuban wants to spend it, why should we care? Why not just revel in the better lineup, and be happy?
Our only caution would be this: the contracts always ends up mattering somehow. If not now, it matters later. It ripples through the roster, and it effects other decisions and choices. It affected Steve Nash not being retained. LaFrentz was traded because his contract was too big to keep him as a backup. Van Exel was too pricy to be a backup point guard, so he was dealt to the Warriors last summer. And so on.
Of course, look what Cuban has done with those last two guys: big contracts, thought to be unmovable, moved. And for talented commodities in exchange, too.
We are troubled by the long-term nature of the talks. With a six-year deal, you add on age factors and consistency factors that disappear (to an extent) with a 3 year deal. If the deal is only 3 years, then if Dampier fails to somehow live up to the deal, you get what you can out of him for 2 years and then market him as an expiring contract. But now? Eventually dumping Damp, if he doesnít play well, becomes difficult.
Of course, if Dampier comes and plays at an All-Star level for a few years, then the deal will have been worth it. But if he is mediocre and unmotivated? Thatís the long-term roll of the dice. Back

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sike
08-19-2004, 09:11 PM
I dont like seven years....I'm not too hot one way or another on the 10mil...
I would have been happier with 5 years...

DevinHarriswillstart
08-19-2004, 09:16 PM
Jesus, 7 years? No way can Cuban justify 7 years and 70 million, if he wasn't willing to resign Nash.

sike
08-19-2004, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by: DevinHarriswillstart
Jesus, 7 years? No way can Cuban justify 7 years and 70 million, if he wasn't willing to resign Nash.
I don't think they signed Jesus(a dunking Savior), DHWS, but seven years (six guaranteed) for Dampier does seem like quit a commitment.

fin4life
08-19-2004, 09:29 PM
six years is more than i was hoping for. I am starting to think that we are giving up a whole lot for this guy. If I knew that this could possible be a 7 year deal... i would only want to give 1 draft pick.

DubOverdose
08-19-2004, 09:37 PM
6 years isn't that bad! That means he only has to play for 4 years as a starter, one as a backup possibly and then the final year he can be traded as an expiring contract. Anything better than that and the Mavs are better off.

cheesestar
08-19-2004, 09:42 PM
well 6 years is more than i had hoped for, but i think dampier would be worth it

i hopei/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif

fin4life
08-19-2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by: DubOverdose
6 years isn't that bad! That means he only has to play for 4 years as a starter, one as a backup possibly and then the final year he can be traded as an expiring contract. Anything better than that and the Mavs are better off.

It still concerns me. his age is questioned when he is 30... think about him at 36. Not to mention that puts a damper (no pun intended) on our plans to be big players in the 2008 FA market

MavsFanFinley
08-19-2004, 09:46 PM
If it's for 6 years...I can't wait to hear what Cuban has to say about it all.

sike
08-19-2004, 09:50 PM
lets be honest...10 mil a year for a near double double guy is not bad. Now lets just hope thats exactly what damp is.

fin4life
08-19-2004, 09:50 PM
now that i think about this... it might not be all bad. The last year is worth the most, so the seventh year would be about 13 million or so. Raef's contract was 7years 69 mil and this is supposed to be like Raef's. If the last year is taken out... it is only about 56mil of 6 years. That makes it look a lot better.

Max Power
08-19-2004, 10:00 PM
seven-year, $70 million deal

That is insane. Brad Miller only signed for $68M for 7 years and he was coming off an All Star appearance.

V
08-19-2004, 10:07 PM
Don't forget Dampier just turned 30. For a big man it's arguable he's in his prime.

In his third contract year he will be 32... same age as Shaq now.

In his sixth contract year he will be 35 ... same age as Vlade Divac last year.

We should not be concerned that Dampier is too old for a six year deal. In my opinion motivation and injury are the ONLY concerns.

duyduck
08-19-2004, 10:07 PM
I have been trying to calculate what it would be. I am guessing with a 7th year as a team option, and lets say Cuban is looking at 7 years 71 million.

1st year 7 million
2nd year 7.8
3rd year 8.85
4th year 9.97
5th year 11.21
6th year 12.61 maybe as a player option.
7th year 14.19 as the team option.

When you calculate this as a 6 year deal, it is 6 years for 57.44 Million.
Brad Miller $7,875,000 $8,750,000 $9,625,000 $10,500,000 $11,375,000 $12,250,000 for a total of 60.375.

Dampier:
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Rebounds Per Game(12.0) Ranks #3 in the NBA in Field-Goal Percentage(0.535)
Ranks #15 in the NBA in Blocks Per Game(1.85) Ranks #1 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds(344.0)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per Game(4.6) Ranks #12 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds(543.0)
Ranks #11 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per Game(7.3) Ranks #3 in the NBA in Total Rebounds(887.0)
Ranks #15 in the NBA in Blocks(137.0) Ranks #1 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(6.9)
Ranks #5 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(10.8) Ranks #1 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(17.7)
Ranks #9 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking Per 48 Minutes(29.6)

I think Cuban is wishing he traded Nash for Miller, and now since he didnt pay Nash, he is essentially trading (moneywise) Nash for Dampier.

Murphy3
08-19-2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by: Max Power

seven-year, $70 million deal

That is insane. Brad Miller only signed for $68M for 7 years and he was coming off an All Star appearance.

You're right, that number is a bit insane. However, it doesn't bother me for the first 4-5 years. I'm confident that this deal will make the Mavs prime title contenders for the immediate future starting with this year. However, just how badly will the contract come to bite the Mavs in the ass is yet to be known. If Dampier helps to bring a title, it'll be worth it in the end.

sike
08-19-2004, 10:16 PM
If Dampier helps to bring a title, it'll be worth it in the end.
and that is really all that matters.

Just211
08-19-2004, 10:38 PM
THe difference between Dampier and Nash is that all big men get overpaid. And even when he is older, he will still be a big body. Nash however will get slower, which would make him useless.
Also I believe the Nash move was part of a effort to get better defensivley, along with the Jamison move, and Fortson move as well.
IMO this team will be a lot different next year. I think we might see them slow it down a little, and rely on their deep rotation at 1-3, to play with more defensive intensity, and they'll be backed up by a true Center rotation, which will make Dirk better as well.
I don't know about you guys, but with Nash, or not, I'm truely excited, and optimistic about next year.
Now, if they somehow turn all these current scrapes into a decent backup PF, Everything would be gravy. Hell at this point, I'm even optimistic that DJ and Booth could handle backup PF minutes

Optimism is a great thing i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

MavsFanFinley
08-19-2004, 11:00 PM
I thought Cuban all but said the Raef contract was a mistake in his blog? He gave that to him when he was 26 years old.

Then he goes on record as saying he won't overpay or give out contracts past the 2008 season to aging players.

Now it's being reported that Dampier is about to sign a Raef-like contract at the age of 30.

V
08-19-2004, 11:10 PM
The contract is probably closer to actual 6 year $55 million ... it's not likely he'll get the 7th year guaranteed. That's less than Brad Miller & a good deal IMO.

FilthyFinMavs
08-19-2004, 11:12 PM
None of this has been confirmed correct? Aren't these just Fish's sources?


I have no problem at all giving a 12/12/1 a game guy 7/70 mill contract. I do have a problem with giving a 8/6/1 guy a deal like that. I'll just have to wait andn see what we get next season from this guy in order to really judge this deal. But what in the hell happened to the mid level exception type deal we were giving this guy? That's what's so frustrating here.

u2sarajevo
08-19-2004, 11:14 PM
I was lukewarm about this deal to begin with. And now?

Well, I'll just say that it flies in the face of everything Cuban has said was the MO for this team.

I think Fish and Lord said it best:
In the version we now get from our sources, the Mavs are taking on $60-to-$70M for Dampier, $10M for Eschmeyer, $1M for Dickau, and giving up Laettner's expiring deal, plus 2 picks, plus cash. On top of that, the Mavs are further clogging up the roster with undesirables as to talent (Eschmeyer, Dickau) who appear to have no value to this team, and whose presence will create an even worse logjam. They also lost a usable piece in Najera.

Hope Dickau and Esch can wave towels real-real hard.

FilthyFinMavs
08-19-2004, 11:20 PM
Is that Philly pick not still lottery protected? I mean what were the chances of us really getting that pick? As far as the Mavs pick go well it will be in the late 20's. I doubt that guy would've even made this team. I'm pretty confident of developing Harris, Paval, Benga, Howard and Daniels all the way to 2007. How many more rookies were we going to be bringing in?

DevinHarriswillstart
08-19-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by: u2sarajevo
I was lukewarm about this deal to begin with. And now?

Well, I'll just say that it flies in the face of everything Cuban has said was the MO for this team.

I think Fish and Lord said it best:
In the version we now get from our sources, the Mavs are taking on $60-to-$70M for Dampier, $10M for Eschmeyer, $1M for Dickau, and giving up Laettner's expiring deal, plus 2 picks, plus cash. On top of that, the Mavs are further clogging up the roster with undesirables as to talent (Eschmeyer, Dickau) who appear to have no value to this team, and whose presence will create an even worse logjam. They also lost a usable piece in Najera.

Hope Dickau and Esch can wave towels real-real hard.

60 to 70 million.....I am all for this trade, I love getting a real center....but when you give a player money like that, who was definitely playing for a contract......crossing fingers for next season is a must.

dirno2000
08-19-2004, 11:42 PM
In the version we now get from our sources, the Mavs are taking on $60-to-$70M for Dampier, $10M for Eschmeyer, $1M for Dickau, and giving up Laettner's expiring deal, plus 2 picks, plus cash. On top of that, the Mavs are further clogging up the roster with undesirables as to talent (Eschmeyer, Dickau) who appear to have no value to this team, and whose presence will create an even worse logjam. They also lost a usable piece in Najera.Esch has been traded twice in the past year so obviously he's tradable.

As a fan, the value of Laetners expiring contract was a trade chip to bring in a needed piece...that's what we used it for. It's not like he was going to put us under the cap next season.

Picks always have value, but they have less value to us since we have a promising young player at every position save for Dirks.

What's the difference between having Dickau on the bench and having Jon on the bench?

I really don't see what they're bitching about. Did we pay too much for Dampier...of course we did, that was to be expected. However, If Cuban is willing to pay the tax, why should it matter to the fan?

V2M
08-20-2004, 12:19 AM
If it's 6yr/$56m, then it's not all that bad. Since he had a 5yr/$50m from Atlanta, we basically got him the 6th year for $6m. And I'm guessing there would be some incentive clauses where he'd have to earn his last year or two.

Also, compared to the deals that other FAs got this year, this isn't too bad.

FolterKammer84
08-20-2004, 02:29 AM
a 6 year 56 m deal would be damn bad . i am happy that our mavericks finally have gotten a real banger inside but i doubt hes worth that much. he wont get a double double here ( he wont get 12 points basically) and expecting him to produce 9+ rbds for at least 4 years is way too much..

V
08-20-2004, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by: V
Don't forget Dampier just turned 30. For a big man it's arguable he's in his prime.

In his third contract year he will be 32... same age as Shaq now.

In his sixth contract year he will be 35 ... same age as Vlade Divac last year.

We should not be concerned that Dampier is too old for a six year deal. In my opinion motivation and injury are the ONLY concerns.

These numbers may be wrong. Fish is reporting Damp may have turned 29 last month...

FolterKammer84
08-20-2004, 08:35 AM
dampier is 30 years old . look on nba.com > players

Finley4ever
08-20-2004, 08:55 AM
1st year 7 million
2nd year 7.8
3rd year 8.85
4th year 9.97
5th year 11.21
6th year 12.61 maybe as a player option.
7th year 14.19 as the team option.

I was hoping that the contract would only be for 3 or 4 years so that we could have cap space or at least cap flexibility when Dirk and Fin's contract run out, but at least we don't seem to be overpaying him too tremendously. With $14 million as the team option I don't see any chance that we will be picking that up, but on the bright side, if Damp only does well in contract years, just think how hard he'll play to earn that $14 million.

V
08-20-2004, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by: FolterKammer84
dampier is 30 years old . look on nba.com > players

You missed my point:

"Dampier is listed at being 30 years old everywhere you look, including on the NBA.com website, where his birthday is recorded as 7/14/74. But in fact Ė no kidding Ė there is apparently some debate about whether Dampier is not 30, but is actually only 29."

from db.com

madape
08-20-2004, 09:44 AM
The Mavericks just flushed their future down the toilet. If we don't win a title next year or the year after, we'll never win one (and I put the odds of us being higher than a five seed next year at about 25%). Terrible contracts, no draft picks... what do we have to be excited about? After such a productive off-season, this deal makes no sense. With this train-wreck, Cuban undid everything good he's done this summer. This is an unmitigated disaster.

I'd give this deal a grade, but I don't think you can give out a grade lower than an F. This one is in a class all it's own.

duyduck
08-20-2004, 09:46 AM
If Dampier gets 10/8/1.6blocks a game, would mav fans think this would be good enough for a 6 year 56 mil. contract?

I was just averaging the years where he played at least 72 games. Also the only years he averaged 32 mins he got 12/10/1.8 blocks. The other years he averaged about 24 mins a game. That is about 8 mins a game. So if he is healthy enough to play 32 mins. I think he could easily average a double double. And lets not forget he can play defense.

jayC
08-20-2004, 11:30 AM
Yeah L8 and Najera along with two future picks really flushed out future down the toilet. Sure its a risk, but the bigger risk would be to do nothing in the middle. Going into the season with Bradley and Booth would have been a big mistake. Dampier got minutes and he produced what's the big deal. So six years from know we will be way under the cap.

Worse case scenario he avgs 8 points, 9 rebounds and 1 block a game in 25 minutes and he plays well for only two years. In two years Pavel and DJ will be ready to contribute.

We traded Jamison and Fortson
Recieved Dampier, Booth, Stackhouse and Devin Harris. I would say that is one helluva trade.

Dooby
08-20-2004, 11:31 AM
As Jazz owner Larry Miller said, you never get in trouble by overpaying. It is the years that get you in trouble.

And he's absolutely right. If Cuban wanted to give Damp a max deal for 3 or 4 years, I'd be OK with that. But as soon as you offer Dampier a contract that goes beyond Dirk or Finley, you asking for a salary cap disaster.

I am shocked at the money. And I am very disappointed. If this is true, I will sour on this deal real fast.

madape
08-20-2004, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by: jayC
Yeah L8 and Najera along with two future picks really flushed out future down the toilet. Sure its a risk, but the bigger risk would be to do nothing in the middle. Going into the season with Bradley and Booth would have been a big mistake. Dampier got minutes and he produced what's the big deal. So six years from know we will be way under the cap.

Worse case scenario he avgs 8 points, 9 rebounds and 1 block a game in 25 minutes and he plays well for only two years. In two years Pavel and DJ will be ready to contribute.

We traded Jamison and Fortson
Recieved Dampier, Booth, Stackhouse and Devin Harris. I would say that is one helluva trade.


How is the worst case scenario still better than 90% of the seasons Dampier has ever had?

No, the worst case scenario is that Dampier looks like the same guy he's been for 90% of his career - an 8 point, 6 rebound bum. The depressing thing, and the thing people on this board tend to overlook, is that the worst case scenario is the most likely scenario. A seven year committment to a guy who when healthy will put up 8 points and 6 rebounds. How can anyone be excited about that?

lonny22
08-20-2004, 12:36 PM
Ape,

You and others have it all wrong. Robert Parish is running his 4th annual Big Man's Camp right now. Some of the guys there are:

Dwight Howard- A top rookie who wants to learn.

Mamadou N'Diaye- A spare end of the bench backup on bad teams.

Etan Thomas- He finally had a good year last year.

2 other Wizard Forwards- Names not mentioned.

Erick Dampier- This dude is trying to get better and he has his confidence up.

Dwight Howard said in an interview that he always played against Erick on Playstation and now he faces him in real life.

I'll shout it from the rooftop, Dampier will be a monster this year. He'll get between 55-60 double doubles.

V2M
08-20-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by: Dooby
As Jazz owner Larry Miller said, you never get in trouble by overpaying. It is the years that get you in trouble.

And he's absolutely right. If Cuban wanted to give Damp a max deal for 3 or 4 years, I'd be OK with that. But as soon as you offer Dampier a contract that goes beyond Dirk or Finley, you asking for a salary cap disaster.

I am shocked at the money. And I am very disappointed. If this is true, I will sour on this deal real fast.


I'm confused. Please educate me on this. How's 4yr/$56m (max contract) better than 6yr/$56m?

I'd think, if you really need him for only 4 years and you got him for 6 years, there's multiple options to get rid of him. Trade him, dump him and eat his contract for final 2 years or just buy him out.

When you have an owner who's deep-pocketed and a willingness to constantly upgrade the team, I don't think he'd have any trouble trading him after 4 years. Especially in a league where Centers are hard to find.

Cybertx
08-20-2004, 01:19 PM
would you take a 35 years old center and if cuban would like to buy him out the last 2 years it will be around 25 mill. would you give 25 mill. for nothin , cuban would put him in the IR(like tariq) and he will get paid for the insurance mostly but still he will use 1 spot and cap space.

V2M
08-20-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by: Cybertx
would you take a 35 years old center and if cuban would like to buy him out the last 2 years it will be around 25 mill. would you give 25 mill. for nothin , cuban would put him in the IR(like tariq) and he will get paid for the insurance mostly but still he will use 1 spot and cap space.


First, at the end of 4yrs he'd be 34yrs officially (33yrs as per new reports).

Second, Lakers just signed a 37yr old Divac for 2yr/$11m deal. You don't think Cuban can get rid of a 33 or 34yr old Damp. Just see what Cuban did with large ugly contracts of NVE, Raef, Fortson, Jamison, Najera, etc. When you combine cash considerations, draft picks, and expiring contracts, you can get very creative. He's proven many times over the last few years.

Finally, so what if you have to pay him $25m for years 5 & 6 to buy him out. It's still better than paying that money during the first 4 years. In fact, significantly better... if you consider the Luxury Tax in the early years as well as a simple fiscal concept of "present value of future money".

Cybertx
08-20-2004, 02:28 PM
Divac is way different to Dampier(he works harder) and Divac still can be a decent offensive center, there's not comparations between european players to american (Divac, nowitski, peja, etc. being better shotters when Dampier,shaq,etc. are bangers), Dampier st 36 would be a worse player than Bradley at 36.
you are talking about 4 years but you were the one that said that 6 was better.

and about contracts what player has been older than 32 years old.

About buy him out i don't think cuban would give somebody 25 mill. for nothing

kg_veteran
08-20-2004, 02:29 PM
I'm going to wait and see what the actual contract details are. If he lands somewhere in between what guys like Foyle and Nesterovic got paid and what Brad Miller got paid, I'll be okay with it.