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cheesestar
09-19-2004, 05:41 PM
would you rather have Dirk average 18pts,14reb,3blk or have him average 25,9,1.5?

i think id rather have 25 9 and 1.5 because we have damp to do a lot of the rebounding and blocked shots.

just wondering...
i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

dashthemavfan13
09-19-2004, 05:47 PM
I would rather have 18/14/3.

dirno2000
09-19-2004, 05:47 PM
The latter

sike
09-19-2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
The latter
yup

EricaLubarsky
09-19-2004, 06:08 PM
he should be doing the least amount of work each night that allows us to win. Throwing his body around for extra rebounds that we don't need and taking shots that Terry, finley or Stackhouse could easily take puts his body at risk of injury and/or being worn down.

He should be able to rise above his averages to dominate games when he isnt getting any other contributions from his teammates, but he shouldnt put in that much work. Duncan can put up 40 a game, but if he gets help from even one position, the team is an elite team that is hard to beat.

sike
09-19-2004, 06:21 PM
but he shouldnt put in that much work.
Dirk is great...but no one is great enough to just sit back and take it easy.
His surrounding cast is wonderful, but Dirk needs to be the force that takes this team forward...he will not do that by not putting in "much work"

Hitman
09-19-2004, 06:38 PM
Dirk should not be doing the "least amount possible." That is absurd. The Mavericks are at their best when he is active...when he is shooting and rebounding the ball with regularity.

In the NBA...the team with the most dominant player usually wins.

Dirk needs to dominate if the Mavs wish to win the NBA crown.

endtroducing
09-19-2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by: Hitman
Dirk should not be doing the "least amount possible." That is absurd. The Mavericks are at their best when he is active...when he is shooting and rebounding the ball with regularity.

In the NBA...the team with the most dominant player usually wins.

Dirk needs to dominate if the Mavs wish to win the NBA crown.

no kidding. and rebounds that 'aren't needed'? what the hell?

poohrichardson
09-19-2004, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
he should be doing the least amount of work each night that allows us to win. Throwing his body around for extra rebounds that we don't need and taking shots that Terry, finley or Stackhouse could easily take puts his body at risk of injury and/or being worn down.

He should be able to rise above his averages to dominate games when he isnt getting any other contributions from his teammates, but he shouldnt put in that much work. Duncan can put up 40 a game, but if he gets help from even one position, the team is an elite team that is hard to beat.


You're making the mistake of thinking that every player we brought in on the off-season is meant to do work instead of Dirk.. they're actually here to compliment his game, not stunt its growth.

Whichever way you look at it... "rebounds that aren't needed" makes ZERO sense in any situation.........

Waschdel
09-19-2004, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by: sike

but he shouldnt put in that much work.
Dirk is great...but no one is great enough to just sit back and take it easy.
His surrounding cast is wonderful, but Dirk needs to be the force that takes this team forward...he will not do that by not putting in "much work"

Dominant players have the ability to push that extra switch when needed. Dirk repeatedly did that in playoff games. Considering his playoff performances alone he already is what many fans want him to become. I think he still misses the feeling or the ability to push that switch at will - not only in do or die situations. This development is closely combined to maturity. And that kind of maturity has nothing to do with age. Duncan for example had this maturity when he started to play in the NBA. He ran through the american system and was used to the "push-the-switch-situations". Dirk was not. He learned to play in Germany where his talent was more than enough to dominate a game. But now after several years he should be able to foresee situations when a little extra work has to be done. He has to work constantly and he has to feel when his team needs "much work".

FilthyFinMavs
09-19-2004, 07:34 PM
Goodness if Dirk can average 18/14/3 a game next season i'd change my name to DirtyDirkMavs. That's an MVP-like season.

alby
09-19-2004, 07:55 PM
how bout 60+wins for mavs
dirk gets mvp
nelson gets coach of the year
stack gets 6th man
devin gets rookie of the year
jhow gets defensive player of the year

or

an nba championship











if you said yes to the second one, then who cares about stats =]

fin4life
09-19-2004, 08:19 PM
i would rather have dirk score 25/9/1.5

That is more MVP quality than 18/14/3.. that is basicaly ben wallace's line with an additional 6 points

DubOverdose
09-19-2004, 08:47 PM
I would rather Dirk post 25/14/3 while shooting 50% and 40+% from three and the mavs winning the championship.

cheesestar
09-19-2004, 09:04 PM
i guess nothing really matters if we win a championship.

EricaLubarsky
09-19-2004, 09:23 PM
Dirk is one of the most potent offensive guys in the league, who can do a lot effortlessly. All I'm saying is I'd rather he have fun night in and night out with his game going fluidly and his shots falling then having him force up shots and put his ankles at risk going for unnecessary rebounds. Perhaps it was the rediculous question that resulted in my rediculous answer, because I'd obviously want Dirk to put up 150pts, 45reb, 22as, 4blocks a game, but I tried to make it more complex by talking about other contributions.

If it's the difference between getting a rebound and not, the answer is obvious- he should go for it, but if it's between Dirk overexherting himself when Dampier could have rebounded it, then I don't give a whiz about Dirk's stats. In fact as long as everything is getting done I don't give a whiz about anyone's stats. If the team isnt shooting well, I'd expect Dirk to get a lot of shots, but if the whole team is shooting over 50%, I could care less if Dirk had 5 points or 45.

EricaLubarsky
09-19-2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by: sike

but he shouldnt put in that much work.
Dirk is great...but no one is great enough to just sit back and take it easy.
His surrounding cast is wonderful, but Dirk needs to be the force that takes this team forward...he will not do that by not putting in "much work"

is everyone misreading me today? Did I ever say he should "sit back and take it easy"?

Maybe Im wrong but I thought I just said that he shouldn't be pushing himself to put up 45 every night. Duncan puts up 22, but he could score 50. Should he put in that much extra effort and effect his shooting percentage? no.

I'm happy with what Dirk and Duncan are doing now and neither one of them "sat around" last season.

There is a difference between coming out and playing with heart as a member of a team, and trying to do too much. He can elevate his game when needed, as he has already shown he can do, but he doesn't need to do it every night. Spurs and Mavs are winning teams so it obviously works.

"least amount possible" isn't "the least amount of work one has to do not to get fired", it's that minimum number of shots that Dirk needs to take (which happens to be quite high). I am not proposing that Dirk should stop playing with heart, just that on average an efficient team runs plays through multiple players and that if everyone could shoot 50% and score 10 points, I'd prefer that to two players scoring 50 and no one else scoring because the more you score the more stress you are putting on yourself and the more the opposing coach makes sure his team notices you.

It's amazing how one misread can lead to a whole list of straw-man arguments-- especially in the offeason.

FilthyFinMavs
09-19-2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by: fin4life
i would rather have dirk score 25/9/1.5

That is more MVP quality than 18/14/3.. that is basicaly ben wallace's line with an additional 6 points


You mean to tell me you wouldn't want a Ben Wallace like player on this team?

sike
09-19-2004, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky: he should be doing the least amount of work each night that allows us to win.

this is pretty clear...you want him to hold back from going all out....and many of us think Dirk should establish himself constantly as the guy leaving it all on the court as an example for this team to follow
Throwing his body around for extra rebounds that we don't need and taking shots that Terry, finley or Stackhouse could easily take puts his body at risk of injury and/or being worn down.

now really, who is to say which one he should go for and which would be considered "extra" or one risking injury...I can't tell?
He should be able to rise above his averages to dominate games when he isnt getting any other contributions from his teammates

he often does this now...but I doubt he would say he can acomplish the task because he holds back in other games
he shouldnt put in that much work.

yikes..how can this be misread?
Duncan can put up 40 a game, but if he gets help from even one position, the team is an elite team that is hard to beat.

dirk will get help from all positions....but without his greatness game in and game out, they will never reach the elite status...I love ya EL...maybe I just don't get your point i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

EricaLubarsky
09-19-2004, 10:31 PM
help! Im confused by that.

grndmstr_c
09-19-2004, 10:37 PM
I'd love to see Dirk continue to raise his blocks this season, but if he's averaging 18 points and 14 rebounds we've got problems, because the 18 points would mean he wasn't getting enough shots, and the 14 boards would mean nobody else (most notably Dampier) was doing anything at all on the defensive glass. This team is not built such that we need Dirk to cut back his scoring and become a league-leading rebounder. It's built to allow him to do what he does better than just about everybody else in the league: put the ball in the bucket. That, and make his usual very solid contribution on the defensive boards.

EricaLubarsky
09-19-2004, 10:40 PM
he shouldnt put in that much work.

as in he shouldnt put in that much work, as in trying to score 40 every night. It can be read two ways actually, the text itslf doesnt give you any clues and I say it both ways, informally, meaning "not much" and accented meaning "a lot"

fin4life
09-19-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Originally posted by: fin4life
i would rather have dirk score 25/9/1.5

That is more MVP quality than 18/14/3.. that is basicaly ben wallace's line with an additional 6 points


You mean to tell me you wouldn't want a Ben Wallace like player on this team?

I would love to have a ben wallace type... but i wouldnt want it to be Dirk. We need Dirk to be like Dirk, not Wallace. We need DJ Benga to be ben wallace (taller version), but that isnt Dirks role

chumdawg
09-19-2004, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I'd love to see Dirk continue to raise his blocks this season, but if he's averaging 18 points and 14 rebounds we've got problems, because the 18 points would mean he wasn't getting enough shots, and the 14 boards would mean nobody else (most notably Dampier) was doing anything at all on the defensive glass. This team is not built such that we need Dirk to cut back his scoring and become a league-leading rebounder. It's built to allow him to do what he does better than just about everybody else in the league: put the ball in the bucket. That, and make his usual very solid contribution on the defensive boards.

Completely agreed. I think the best-case scenario for Mavs fans would be for Dirk to average something like: 28 points, 10 rebounds, 4 assists, and 1.5 blocks.

EricaLubarsky
09-19-2004, 11:00 PM
I would love to have a ben wallace type... but i wouldnt want it to be Dirk. We need Dirk to be like Dirk, not Wallace. We need DJ Benga to be ben wallace (taller version), but that isnt Dirks role

Agreed on the role part but Dirk could be a lot better defensively. Just because he scores, doesn't necessarily mean that he can't block a few shots. His offense limits his offensive rebounding, and he may be unable to play tough on both sides of the floor but playing for steals in the passing lane and blocking are certainly two things he could do and could do better.

MavsFanFinley
09-19-2004, 11:46 PM
I'd rather see the team as a group win a championship than watch one player dominate.

EricaLubarsky
09-20-2004, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
I'd rather see the team as a group win a championship than watch one player dominate.

exactly.

I want to see three things in this order
1) I want to see the guys having fun. They didn't seem to for most of last year.
2) I want to see them really come out with a new style
3) related to the other two, I want them to be successful.

SeriousSummer
09-20-2004, 09:05 AM
If you wanted Dirk to average 18/14, then he would have played center next to, maybe, Jamison. If he does that this year, then it'll only be because Dampier was a complete bust. Playing next to Dampier, Dirk needs to score more and rebound less.

fin4life
09-20-2004, 09:48 AM
As long as dampier is averaging something around 10/10 (which would be great and is what I expect), Dirk will need to get about 25/9... that will be enough to give the best PF/C tandem in the league.

dalmations202
09-20-2004, 10:28 AM
Dirk really needs to do about 25/10/2.

And I am with EL.

Dirk needs to do as little work to get there as possible. He needs to be the focus of the offense, and play good helpside defense which will allow him to keep his points, rebounding, and blocks up.

Damps numbers will end up, IMO, at about 12/9/2........and that should be plenty, as long as he is playing the better of the other teams 4/5, and allowing Dirk to be the offside player, and Dirk to not be the last line of defense.

fin4life
09-20-2004, 10:37 AM
Agaisnt the T-wolves... would you really rather have Damp gaurd KG instead of Dirk. I think dirk is more effective agaisnt him. Maybe if booth were in at center, Booth could gaurd him instead of Dirk.

The point that I am trying to make is... at some point in his career, Dirk will have to step up and play the oppenents best player. That is why KG/Duncan are so much better than him. They are true leaders that go out and dominate both ways... Dirk is only half way there now. Im not saying that he won't get there... But he won't if we dont allow him to play defense agaisnt good players.

dalmations202
09-20-2004, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by: fin4life
Agaisnt the T-wolves... would you really rather have Damp gaurd KG instead of Dirk. I think dirk is more effective agaisnt him. Maybe if booth were in at center, Booth could gaurd him instead of Dirk.

The point that I am trying to make is... at some point in his career, Dirk will have to step up and play the oppenents best player. That is why KG/Duncan are so much better than him. They are true leaders that go out and dominate both ways... Dirk is only half way there now. Im not saying that he won't get there... But he won't if we dont allow him to play defense agaisnt good players.

But that isn't exactly true.

TD does not go out to guard Dirk. KG tries but gets torched by Dirk everytime he goes out on the floor. KG and TD are absolutely excellent offside help defenders. Neither guard the opposing teams best player, most nights. Every time KG guards Dirk, Dirk just moves out on the floor. Every time Webber guards Dirk, he just moves out on the floor. Every time TD tries to guard Dirk, he just moves out on the floor. Dirk is a nightmare matchup. That is why teams with close to 7' SF's have been playing Dirk with them, trying to force Dirk back to the inside, where the offside helpers like KG and TD can help out, and get blocks.

Dirk needs to dominate offensively, and dominate as the help defensively like KG and TD do. He does not need to be banging all the time, and be the last line of defense -- that role hurts his offensive and defensive game.

dmavsfan
09-20-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by: Waschdel

Originally posted by: sike

but he shouldnt put in that much work.
Dirk is great...but no one is great enough to just sit back and take it easy.
His surrounding cast is wonderful, but Dirk needs to be the force that takes this team forward...he will not do that by not putting in "much work"

Dominant players have the ability to push that extra switch when needed. Dirk repeatedly did that in playoff games. Considering his playoff performances alone he already is what many fans want him to become. I think he still misses the feeling or the ability to push that switch at will - not only in do or die situations. This development is closely combined to maturity. And that kind of maturity has nothing to do with age. Duncan for example had this maturity when he started to play in the NBA. He ran through the american system and was used to the "push-the-switch-situations". Dirk was not. He learned to play in Germany where his talent was more than enough to dominate a game. But now after several years he should be able to foresee situations when a little extra work has to be done. He has to work constantly and he has to feel when his team needs "much work".

I think tha the difference in Dirk and Duncan is the coaching. Dirk has done well with the strange coaching at Dallas.

dmavsfan
09-20-2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by: fin4life
Agaisnt the T-wolves... would you really rather have Damp gaurd KG instead of Dirk. I think dirk is more effective agaisnt him. Maybe if booth were in at center, Booth could gaurd him instead of Dirk.

The point that I am trying to make is... at some point in his career, Dirk will have to step up and play the oppenents best player. That is why KG/Duncan are so much better than him. They are true leaders that go out and dominate both ways... Dirk is only half way there now. Im not saying that he won't get there... But he won't if we dont allow him to play defense agaisnt good players.

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Dirk smoked TD in Germany recently. There was no comparison. Dirk dominated.....and was very good defensively. Wasn't Robinson the center when the Spurs won their championships? TD and Garnet do not guard the other teams' best players (they have centers!) ...they help out, as Dirk should be doing. Nelson put him in horrible positions last year. Every other team out-coaches the Mavs. Dirk would be the #1 player (or close) if Pop was the coach. As dirk continues to develop his inside game and D...he will pass Garnett and maybe Duncan (imo).

dmavsfan
09-20-2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
help! Im confused by that.

Keep up the good work Erica! I am enjoying your posts.

fin4life
09-20-2004, 11:29 AM
I dont really think that KG relies on ervin Johnson/kandi too much, and TD doesnt rely on Rasho on defense either.

Also, when you talk about the Olympic team playing Germany... TD was playing center. Dirk was gaurding Lamar odem and Odem was gaurding Dirk. Not to mention... Dirk needs to do a lot more for germany than Duncan needs to do for USA, but Duncan still led the team in points/rebounds agaisnt Germany. International play can be brought up like that.... Using that logic I can say that Calso Arroya is much better than any player on the USA team, or that Darius Songalia is better than Lamar Odem.

dmavsfan
09-20-2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by: fin4life
I dont really think that KG relies on ervin Johnson/kandi too much, and TD doesnt rely on Rasho on defense either.

Also, when you talk about the Olympic team playing Germany... TD was playing center. Dirk was gaurding Lamar odem and Odem was gaurding Dirk. Not to mention... Dirk needs to do a lot more for germany than Duncan needs to do for USA, but Duncan still led the team in points/rebounds agaisnt Germany.

Why do you think that Pop went to Nasho's country to get him right after they lost Robinson? How many titles has TD won without Robinson?

How many has Garnett won? Do not the Spurs and T-Wolves emphasize D? So Garnett and TD have good coaches with good defensive players. Now the Mavs had made the adjustments - Finally! Dirk should blossom.

I saw Dirk blow past Duncan one-on-one in Germany. Duncan was mad at his team-mates for not helping (Duncan had to foul him). I also saw Dirk block Duncan. Duncan (and esp. Garnett) are not so far ahead as you think. A strong argument can be made that the US had a better team around Duncan also....although the German team is getting very good.

fin4life
09-20-2004, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by: dmavsfan
[Q
Why do you think that Pop went to Nasho's country to get him right after they lost Robinson? How many titles has TD won without Robinson?



Now your logic makes complete sense... they havent won any championships in the one year that Robinson has been retired. That means that Duncan is not a good defender. Damn, I feel so dumb right now.

dalmations202
09-20-2004, 12:07 PM
I dont really think that KG relies on ervin Johnson/kandi too much, and TD doesnt rely on Rasho on defense either.

KG and TD do rely on these guys. These guys are not on the floor for their offense. They are on the floor because they can play some defense and keep the "stars" out of foul trouble. Nellie this last year tried to overpower teams with offense, but that hurt Dirk's play because he was forced to be the "last line of defense" and get those "silly fouls". He was also forced to bang down low all the time, which got his feet stepped on, etc.

Pop, and Saunders took their star, and made them the Centerpiece. Nellie didn't do that last year. Then they put a defensive "center" around him, and allowed him to excel on offense, and be helpside defense. They both stepped up late in games where they needed to, but they were fairly fresh because they did not have to play as the banging center or last line of defense.

Dirk will put up numbers much closer to these two (maybe better), just like he did two years ago, now that they have defensive centers again. At least he will if Nellie will make him the centerpiece, and not the "Center".

FilthyFinMavs
09-20-2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
I'd rather see the team as a group win a championship than watch one player dominate.



Me and you think alike.

sike
09-20-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
I'd rather see the team as a group win a championship than watch one player dominate.
Me and you think alike.
poor MFF i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

sike
09-20-2004, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

he shouldnt put in that much work.
as in he shouldnt put in that much work, as in trying to score 40 every night. It can be read two ways actually, the text itslf doesnt give you any clues and I say it both ways, informally, meaning "not much" and accented meaning "a lot"
ok..you don't want Dirk to go for 40 a night....that is easy to understand...but somehow I think going for 40 and playing hard are different things...you don't want dirk to risk hurting himself...ok...but it seems to me that the great players are not the ones who hold back in the regular season and then "flip the switch" in the playoffs...but rather give their all(this is not just going for 40) to make their team the best it can be in the regular season and THEN kick their game into an even higher gear in the playoffs...it has nothing to do with holding back and everything to do with rising to higher levels than before...Dirk has done this in almost every playoff series I have watched him in..and I have watched him in every game of every playoff series he has been in...yet he also plays hard in the regular season(with last year being the only season I can ever remember seeing him "take off" games)...I dont want Dirk to be less than he has been...just so he can improve his numbers in the playoffs...I want and fully expect him to lay it on the line every night...and then to improve his game in the playoffs!

Simon2
09-20-2004, 04:56 PM
A very tricky question. The gist is, do you want Dirk to score or rebound? I like him scoring more. If Dirk averages 18 pts, I would consider it a subpar season. I like the fact that Dirk is scoring. It keeps the other teams honest in defending him. He's almost a automatic double team anyway. If Dirk scores 25 pts a game, that's 25% of a hundred points. Hopefully, Terry, Fin, Stack and Damp can add another 75 pts somewhere in there to make a 100. I like a scoring Dirk especially if he is scoring off putbacks and rebounds. My wonder is how many times will Nellie post Damp get Dirk to be the passer?

FilthyFinMavs
09-20-2004, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
I'd rather see the team as a group win a championship than watch one player dominate.
Me and you think alike.
poor MFF i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

How did I not know you would resply to what I said? i/expressions/anim_roller.gif

sike
09-20-2004, 07:30 PM
take a joke filthy....

you know when I "resply" its all in good fun.

dmavsfan
09-20-2004, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by: fin4life

Originally posted by: dmavsfan
[Q
Why do you think that Pop went to Nasho's country to get him right after they lost Robinson? How many titles has TD won without Robinson?



Now your logic makes complete sense... they havent won any championships in the one year that Robinson has been retired. That means that Duncan is not a good defender. Damn, I feel so dumb right now.

I didn't say that TD was not a good defender. I was just pointing out that your statement that TD and Garnett are SO better than Nowitzki is not true. Neither is it true that they are true leaders, but that Dirk isn't (implied). Different leaders lead in different ways. It's ok for Finley to lead in one way and Dirk in another. Dirk doesn't have to be all these other guys.....just himself.