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View Full Version : Finley better be glad he is the "heart"


FineCubanCigar
03-22-2001, 12:10 AM
I honestly think that if it was not for Findawgs loyalty during the down years, we would be looking to sign and trade him this year, before you laugh:
1) he is on of the oldest players on the team
2) he is going to have a shortened career due to the amount of minutes he plays
3) a scoring two gaurd is a dime a dozen, maybe not the same caliber as Findawg, but you get the point
4) his value could easily be used to get younger and bigger
5) Finley's talents don't really fit the team as well as a Webber, Garnetts, or Odom's would.
6) Mavs need size down low for the future more than a 2 gaurd ... (Richmond)
7) I just think it makes sense ignoring all loyalties, which would make it a bastard like thing to do i know, but Cuban might just have an alterior motive besides just "the positive press" of Finley declaring free agency.
8) unlike the rest of the Mavs team, he is not going to get much better, what we see now is Finley in his prime.

just some thoughts.

LAM0015
03-22-2001, 08:08 AM
finley does probably have 4-5 years at this level though remaining in him (hopefully).
i think not keeping finley makes more sense if you knew you were going to have the same type of play out of nash as he has shown this year for the next few years. right now, finley spends about 5-10 minutes a game help running the offense. to an extent, he is the backup point guard when nash goes to the bench alot of times. right now, i think he's too valuable as a solid 2-guard and a guy that's kinda capable of helping out at the point when needed

LAM0015
03-22-2001, 08:36 AM
and be careful, pointing out negative things about finley isn't exactly the best thing to do on this board. you're likely to be excommunicated

Mavs#1Fan
03-22-2001, 08:39 AM
I heard an interesting rumor a couple of months ago that Finley would be the major centerpiece in a trade for Vince Carter.

Saying negative things about Shawn Bradley isn't too smart either. I've got my stat breakdown on Bradley but I keep it to myself 'cause nobody wants to hear how average he is. He's the best we got at center, so I live with him (but I don't have to like it).

TheKid
03-22-2001, 09:26 AM
If you're trying to say Webber and Garnett are better players than Finley and they would be more valuable than he, I'm not going to argue with you there. I would always choose a talented big man over a guard anyday. (with the exception of Jordan) So there's no argument three. However I read one of the other post that said trade Mike for Houston, that wouldn't be the smartest thing. I think with that trade you only get worse at the position. I think Mike has more in his legs than Houston does.

LAM0015
03-22-2001, 10:07 AM
houston is a better shooter though...or maybe he just takes better shots
oh well..i still wouldn't do it straight up..but maybe if they sweetened the pot a bit..

TheKid
03-22-2001, 10:25 AM
He's a better jumpshooter yes, but Houston can't drive as well, is a terrible defender and when he's off he brings NOTHING else to the table. Trust me I'm a huge Knicks fan too, and there are many NIGHTS I've wanted to kick my TV in.

LAM0015
03-22-2001, 10:38 AM
that's why i said i wouldn't trade him straight up for finley
finley brings other things to the game

Evilmav2
03-22-2001, 05:18 PM
I would never trade Finley for Houston... Houston is a one dimensional scorer and a mediocre defender. Finley has been putting up Grant Hill-like numbers for the last three years, and has far more heart and desire than I have ever seen Houston show...

LAM0015
03-22-2001, 05:56 PM
hank dudek?

FineCubanCigar
03-22-2001, 07:31 PM
Finley and someone else say Trent for Houston and Cmaby, that would be a hands down no brainer, then we would just sign Richmond .... Finley for Carter rumor? nice.

LAM0015
03-22-2001, 08:35 PM
no, i wouldn't trade finley for houston straight up..but yeah, i would trade finley and trent for houston and camby. i don't think that will happen, but if new york is dumb enough to give us that, go for it. i'm not a huge fan of camby, but, you'd have to make that trade.
finley for carter? ummm...hell yeah. that would be a stupid trade for the raptors.
do you think vince would give up some of his shots for the good of the team? heaven knows michael has a hard enough time doing it (but, to his credit, he's doing it sometimes now)

FineCubanCigar
03-22-2001, 08:48 PM
the reason Vince would leave is because he wants to win, of coarse he would give up some shots, plus the man can drive the lane like a demon ... something we don't have cause Findawg refuses to. i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif dont think it will happen though

djb
03-22-2001, 08:50 PM
Carter will never be a Mav. Cuz then NBC/TBS/TNT would have to air Mavs games three times a week, and you know that ain't gonna happen i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

MavsFanFinley
03-22-2001, 09:02 PM
It amazes me about all this Finley trade talk going on. It's no secret Im a big Finley fan and can handle someone knocking something about his game. Sometimes I'll argue or agree the point...

Now, Im going to argue trading Fin. Why? People are quick to point out his weaknesses and can only come up with him having 'heart' as his only upside. That doesn't even bare comment. And Houston is a better shooter? Let's compare there stats and see if that's the case.

Finley 20.9pts 45.6% 31.3% (3-pt) 5.0rbs 4.5as
Houston 19.3pts 45.3% 39.0 (3 pt) 3.7rbs 2.3as 90.5% (ft)

As far as I can see, Houston's only stats better than Fin is ft and 3-pt shooting %. And most of the complaints towards Fin is that he doesn't drive to the basket enough, am I missing something? Does Houston do this more?

And that laugable suggestion that NY would take Fin and Trent and hand us over Houston and Camby bares comparison too.

Camby 11.5pts 53.2% 11.3rbs 2.3blks
Trent 4.0pts 43.8% 2.8rbs

Trent isn't even healthy and can't even stay active but they'll swap Camby for that? I don't think so...

Then, we could just pick up Richmond who is far done with his career than Fin is at this point. Again, he has been injury plagued too. Here's his stats this year

16.2pts 40.7% 33.8% (3-pt) 2.9rbs 3.0as 89.4 (ft)

Am I missing something here too? Is his stats better than Fin's? 3-pt shooting is just barely better but his ft% is considerly better.

And, Im sorry, did I read that right about Fin being the center piece to a possible Carter trade? Im a bit sleepy right now, I might of read it wrong but I'll go ahead and comment on that too...

Carter 27.8pts 46.3% 40.9% (3-pt) 5.6rbs 3.6as

Clearly Carter is more better than Fin in the athletic department and dunking area. BUT, where he likes to showboat himself all the time, Fin quitely does his job effectively and doesn't have to have the spotlight on him for the team to win or get media coverage. And Fin is selfish like Carter is either...And what would we give up to get Carter because clearly straight up is out of the question. Eisley? Maxwell? Trent? Bradley? I think they would take Nash but he isn't the most healthy person either come to think of it. Najera? Booth? Harvey? Howard? Yes, please let me know how this will work out...

MavsFanFinley
03-22-2001, 09:08 PM
I meant that Fin isn't selfish like Carter. LAM0015, what do you mean Fin has a hard time giving up his shots for the good of the team? Fin is always looking to get his teammates involved, only when do they not make their shots does he try to take over. And isn't Fin averaging more assists than Carter too? I'll have to check the boxscores, but since the Howard trade, I can only remember Fin taking more shots than anyone else.

FineCubanCigar
03-22-2001, 09:26 PM
Carter would give the Mavs national attention Michael Finley could never dream of doing, yes the Mavs would be aired nationally 3 times a week, the key to the Mavs will always be the aquisition and then consolidation of talent. Nash and Finley for an unhappy Carter would work out just fine especially if Carter wanted to play here, but like i said i don't think management would split up Howard and Findawg. Your right Finley is one of the best all around players at his position, but that might not be what we need next year or during our title push if an obvious upgrade and major attention getter is available.

MavsFanFinley
03-22-2001, 09:30 PM
Ok, this is how the shots break down between the big 4. Howard has been with us 13 games...

Finley Dirk Nash Howard

SA----------L 24 9 16 14
Clippers----W 21 11 11 10
Vancouver---W 12 15 13 16
Houston-----W 21 18 13 11
Orlando-----L 14 14 9 14
Miami-------W 13 16 10 14
Warriors----W 13 16 11 16
Clippers----W 9 12 7 16
Jersey------W 18 10 8 15
T-Wolves----W 21 15 10 10
Phoenix-----W 16 20 19 14
Portland----L 22 14 12 18
T-Wolves----L 13 20 2 16

The games where Fin is the high shot man = 7. We're 5-2 in those games. Where Fin is tied or less than the high shot man = 6. We're 4-2 in those games. It's not like Fin is hogging all the shots and we're losing as a cause of that. To say Fin doesn't know how to give up his shots for the good of the team makes no sense to me at all.

FineCubanCigar
03-22-2001, 09:33 PM
your right, all im saying is Findawg can be traded to aquire a major upgrade in an area much harder to upgrade than a 2 gaurd.

MavsFanFinley
03-22-2001, 09:34 PM
Hello?? If Finley is so over-rated and on his last legs, how is he going to bring in a superstar for us? Especially a Carter, a Garnett, a Webber? It would make more sense for them to want Dirk because they would be getting something in return if their giving up their Carter, Garnett, Webber, etc...Why would they take Fin and some scrubs like Eisley, Maxwell, Trent, etc...when their giving up their Carter, Garnett, Webber, etc...

FineCubanCigar
03-22-2001, 09:46 PM
i never said he was overrated, i said he may not be the basket this team should put its eggs in. I absolutely adore Michael Finley, he will be one of my favorite players for years to come.

FineCubanCigar
03-22-2001, 09:48 PM
why would Washington give up Howard for some scrubs? ... all im saying is the opprotunity looks like it is and could present itself, we shouldn't think twice.

FineCubanCigar
03-22-2001, 09:51 PM
What happens when Findawg does run out of legs and the cap strapped mavs need more offensive punch to help out Dirk? What then? Findawg is not on the same timeline as the Mavricks, trade him now when his value is slightly past his pinnacle.

erub
03-22-2001, 11:17 PM
Washington gave up Howard for some scrubs because he wasn't getting the job done there, they were paying him too much, needed to get out of his contract. Howard should not be the #1 option on any team, but he is excellent as a #4 option i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif He was getting booed by the fans in Washington, and Jordan wanted to get rid of him...

This situtaiton does not exist in Dallas with regard to Finley. Sure he takes some wild shots, but he is also a great player, and our only All-Star. National attention will come with victories, and a playoff berth, which is what Finley and the rest of the Mavs are working for.

FineCubanCigar
03-23-2001, 05:34 AM
until all those minutes catch up to him, don't you agree that his athleticism is his main asset? All im saying is that he doesn't fit our timeline

LAM0015
03-23-2001, 08:25 AM
finpooch is a solid all around player. but you'd have to be crazy not to trade him for carter (no, i'm sure that probably won't happen,...i'm sure the opportunity will never arise).
why not trade dirk? well, yes, you could, but there are very few players that dirk should be traded for. and dirk is on the rise, constantly getting much better. and he's only 21.
finley, he may improve certain areas of his game slightly, but other areas won't improve the same as dirk's.
finley may fit the mavs timeline, he might not.
personally....i'm sure the mavs will keep finpooch, and i'd be glad to see him stay. if the right trade comes around, yes, i'd trade him and not regret it one bit.
WE WANT CARTER...WE WANT CARTER....
(just thought i'd throw that in for you mavsfinleyfan)
and i'm not sure what finley's main asset is...i think it's throwing up bad shots..(just a joke)

TheKid
03-23-2001, 09:43 AM
You know what's funny is I hear people say Mike is going to lose his legs and he's getting old. Then in the same breath they're talking about getting Houston, Richmond, Webber and Garnett. Richmond, Houston and Webber have been in the league longer than Mike. Webber is the same age as Mike but have more mileage than Mike, he's been in the league longer. Approximately two years longer. Garnett was in the same draft as Mike so he has just as much mileage on him. So I don't get why you all are saying Mike is going to be so tired. Is it because he's tops in the league in minutes played. Well all of these players are tops on their team in minutes played when they're not hurt. Fin has just been lucky enough to stay healthy. So you're all talking about trading a bonafide all-star who comes to play night in and night out for players who ALL have had injury problems (except for Garnett). I don't get it, finally the Mavericks get a nucleus that's winning and everyone wants to change the heart of it. That makes no sense to me.

LAM0015
03-23-2001, 09:52 AM
i don't think mike is gonna fall apart anytime soon..i just don't think he'll improve that much...and yes, would get rid of him for certain players....
but, unless you get a really good deal, i would keep finpooch.
he's gonna probably be at this level for anouther 4-5 years...yes, i would trade him for carter.....no, i don't think that'll happen, that's all i was saying...
no, i don't think the mavs have to change the core of players..i'd like to see the core stay together, but, if the opportunity arose to trade finpooch for carter, yea..i'd take that in a second.
no, finpooch isn't going to fall apart anytime soon..i don't know why people think he will. it's not like he's a QB of a football team and has taken several shots in the head..(i don't know where i got that from).
fin isn't fragile, he's at the top of his game now and will be for the next few years.... trade him for carter..if something else comes up that looks about as good for the mavs..do it, if not..keep finpooch and appreciate what he does for the team (i can't remember what that was..taking bad shots or something)

MavsFanFinley
03-23-2001, 02:22 PM
LAM0015, your not even going to get me in some childish playground spat with your snide comments about Finley.

Funny thing that you mention Fin throwing up bad shots...He is shooting 45.6% while doing that. Not bad considering all he does is throw up bad shots, huh?

LAM0015
03-23-2001, 02:26 PM
no...45% by itself isn't bad. when you take into account the fact that he's shooting around 30-31% from three point land and it quickly becomes alot worse. 45% from two point land and 30% from three point land isn't a good combination for a "good shooting guard"
thanks for your support

Evilmav2
03-23-2001, 02:33 PM
LOL MavsFanFinley... All this talk of trading Finley is absurd. I think that the overwhelming newfound popularity of Dirk has made people forget that Finley is the bedrock of this team on the court and in the locker room... Fin is going to be a Maverick for the rest of his career...

LAM0015
03-23-2001, 03:12 PM
evilmav, finley may have a very loose grip as the bedrock of this team. he's a good person to have in the locker room..but the mavs are loaded with good players in the locker room.finley definitely isn't a defensive leader and he's no longer the most feared person around the NBA on the offensive side of the ball (sorry for voicing my opinion and the opinion of many others around the NBA. the reason why everyone that has anything to do with the team kisses his ass is because he's a free agent after this year, of course they are going to say the right things.) he's a very solid player...very, i know that...everyone knows that.
yes, he's a good player...all anyone is saying is that if the opportunity came up for carter, then it would be in the Mavs best interest to trade him. no, i don't think that'll happen, but if toronto wanted finley for carter, i'd do it.

TheKid
03-23-2001, 03:30 PM
Well you're right, if the Mavs could get Carter take him. I have to agree and like I said earlier if you can get a quality big man (Garnett or Webber) take them. I was just saying I read a lot of the posts and various people were talking like Mike is old. Even by NBA standards he's not old. He's a seasoned vet, but not old.

I still don't agree with the fact that he won't improve much, that's still opinion and I think he will improve and he will add more to his game because at some point he's going to have to. He and Dirk, this year, the Mavs have come on, next year people will defend them differently so if he doesn't add anything to his game the team will be in trouble.

LONG LIVE FIN!!! FIN FOR GOVERNER OF DALLAS!!!!

LAM0015
03-23-2001, 03:45 PM
GM MIN Shot FG% FTA FTP 3PA 3P% ORB TRB ASS STL BLK FOUL TRN POINT
Dal 82 42.2 20.0 45.7 3.9 82.0 3.0 40.1 1.5 6.3 5.3 1.3 0.4 2.4 2.1 22.6
Dal 68 41.8 18.8 45.6 3.7 77.4 2.9 31.3 1.3 5.0 4.5 1.5 0.4 2.3 2.2 20.9

if he's going to start improving, it would be nice if some of it were this year, as you can see...pretty much every major category for finpooch is worse this year than it was last year (except steals and shots per game.. which are thankfully down..now, if we can only knock of 3.8 shots per game, that would be about right)
thanks, great bye

LAM0015
03-23-2001, 03:46 PM
screw it..the spacing messed up after i submitted it..but the proof is stil in the pudding...or his stats...

LAM0015
03-23-2001, 03:46 PM
screw it..the spacing messed up after i submitted it..but the proof is stil in the pudding...or his stats...

MavsFanFinley
03-23-2001, 09:26 PM
I think your forgetting LAM0015 that Finley has played sf almost all of last year and this year. In fact, the only time he's played sg (natural position) with any real consistancy is 13 games straight since Howard has come on board. I think you've already seen him improve a little since moving back to sg. His 3-pt shooting for example and even his rebounding and assists. He was a below-average rebounder at sf but a above average rebounder at sg. He is always looking for his teammates, but if they don't make their shots, his assists stats will hurt, obviously. I can't remember off hand but sure you'll correct me with relish. I think Fin was averaging 22 shots per game, 5 more than the next in line (Dirk with 17). In the last 13 games Fin is averaging 16.7 (well below 22) shots, I don't think he needs to be taking 3.8 less. Dirk is averaging 14.6 with Howard at 14.1 You can make an argument all you want about Dirk needing more shots than Fin, I don't care. Howard, on the other hand, for someone who is considered the 3rd or 4th option on this team is taking almost as many shots as Dirk, is that right? I think Howard is shooting 46. something though so he's been effective so far.

As for Fin's stats being down, his 3-pt shooting is the only thing that's taken a dive. However, he's never been a stellar 3-pt shooter. Last year was a career high. He's still averaging 20+pts a game and that's with 4 other guys averaging double-digits. (Dirk-22, Howard-16.5, Nash-16.3, Eisley-10.0) He's still averaging 5+ rebounds that's with Dirk averaging 9.2, Howard 7.7 and Bradley 7.4. And he's averaging (I believe it'll be above 5 by playoffs) 4.5 assists. That's with Nash averaging 7.4, almost double from last year. And Eisley 3.7. So, Fin hasn't dropped off like you make it sound, it's the players around him that have improved, specifically Dirk and Nash.

big_pth
03-23-2001, 10:02 PM
You might also remember that Finley is a class act, a locker-room leader, and a clutch player. Remember the SA game? Remember the Orlando game?

LAM0015
03-24-2001, 01:53 AM
yes, everyone remembers the san antonio game and the orlando game. do you not realize that you could bring up any number of games in which dirk or nash have pretty much led the team to victory?
look at the numbers as a whole...
all i said was that finley's #'s are slightly down in almost every category..and that is true...and that as long as his field goal percentage is down..he should take less bad shots. that makes perfect sense.
thanks, bye

The Crippler
03-24-2001, 10:16 AM
y'all aren't sick of this yet??? Damn, cause I sure am...i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif

LonestarROB
03-24-2001, 11:07 AM
I'm getting to that point too Crippler.

LAM0015
03-24-2001, 11:14 AM
like i said, i'll stop arguing about it...just as long as no one wants to argue with me.
it is old...very tiring, i'm tired of arguing my points.... and i don't see what the big deal is. all i'm saying is that he's a good all around 2-guard but shooting hasn't been his strong point this year. Just agree with me because what i'm saying is validated by his statistics this year. i don't want to argue with anyone about this..i would much rather argue about something else. so just either, agree with me that "yes, statistically speaking, he's not shooting that well this year" or, don't reply anything at all
thanks, bye

scooterj5
03-24-2001, 11:39 PM
There would be huge fan backlash if Fin was traded. There is little loyalty in the NBA, but we owe Finley some.

LAM0015
03-25-2001, 01:51 AM
the mavs owe the area a winner..and doing whatever it takes to bring that team in.
if for some reason finley for carter trade was there...it would be stupid not to take it.
why do they owe something to michael finley?
yes, he's a great guy but he was paid very good money to play basketball for the mavericks for the past few years? when it comes to professional athletes, they are generally not "owed" anything.
no, i'm not bitter at all..i want finley back, but he's not "owed" anything by the mavericks. if the mavericks think he deserves a large contract, they'll give it to him..and i expect that's what will happen... HOPEFULLY, IT WILLL HAPPEN. but he's not owed anything

Evilmav2
03-25-2001, 04:07 AM
Yep, single game statsistics that equal thirty one points, ten rebounds, and seven assists in one game, aren't as good as you might think... Maybe Fin should drive the lane more often... I'm sure he could have done better... (I am kidding)



http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1681/FINLEY_M_RECAP.JPG

scooterj5
03-25-2001, 05:48 AM
That Carter for Finley trade scenario wouldn't happen...

We owe Finley for sticking with us for when we were winning 20 games a year. Trading him would seem like backstabbing and also discourage free agents from coming here.

LAM0015
03-25-2001, 10:55 AM
evilmav, what's your point?
that he had a good game? yes, of course he did. i'm thrilled for him. we can't judge players on a few select games out of the year, you know that. i'm glad he had a very good game. i hope the mavs sign him back. I'm not saying that finley has had just a few good games this year but anytime anyone brings up an argument for finley, they bring up 3 or 4 games this year... you can do that with almost any player in the NBA.
Finley's a solid player. of course...no, i don't think the carter trade would ever happen...but if he was offered, yes i'd make that trade..(by the way, finley relative field goal percentage is amont the bottom 1/3 of the NBA for 2-guards)

Evilmav2
03-25-2001, 03:11 PM
My friends at Anheuser Busch were the ones helping me make a point last night...

http://www.anheuser-busch.com/images/images/newsplash3_10.gif

Drunk, womanless, and back from the bars... An perfect time to amuse myself posting a picture or two before crashing...

Mavs#1Fan
03-25-2001, 03:33 PM
LAM0015: Exactly what is relative field goal percentage? If you are speaking of his field goal percentage in relation to other shooting guards I believe you are incorrect. Please show your work.

BTW, for someone who has asked that the whole Finley thing be dropped, you sure won't let go of the subject yourself.

djb
03-25-2001, 03:36 PM
I don't want to fuel the fire any, but here's a blurb from today's DMN Mavs notebook. It's interesting because I feel that Nash should be the team MVP this year, though his health is definitely a valid drawback.

Finley for MVP

Don Nelson said it required a few moments of thoughtful solitude, but he has come up with the answer. His choice for MVP of the Mavericks is none other than the team's All-Star.

"Michael's been there all year long," Nelson said. "Michael's been the guy that's held us together."

He and assistant coach Del Harris cited Finley's all-around capabilities how the guard is second on the team in both assists and points per game. Additionally, Finley has had to switch from small forward to shooting guard since the acquisition of Juwan Howard.

Source: DMN Mavs Notebook (http://basketball.dallasnews.com/mavs/321298_mavdate_25spo..html)

LAM0015
03-26-2001, 08:34 AM
yes, i did ask for the finley thing to be dropped..but i also said, if anyone argues the opposing view, then i'll be forced to argue.
relative field goal percentage involves taking into account two point, three point and free throw percentages... i'll show the work later when i have more time...sometime tonight
thanks, bye

Mavs#1Fan
03-26-2001, 10:00 AM
LAM0015: Aren't the one who said "(by the way, finley relative field goal percentage is amont the bottom 1/3 of the NBA for 2-guards)"?

Why would you say that if you really wanted the Finley arguments to stop?

LAM0015
03-26-2001, 10:17 AM
all i was doing was stating facts

Mavs#1Fan
03-26-2001, 12:55 PM
You were not stating the facts to prove a point, you included facts in a response just to invoke a negative reaction. That is very immature.

LAM0015
03-26-2001, 01:24 PM
what is with the personal insult?
a statistic is a statistic...nothing more..nothing less
why do you get so upset when i mention a fact that is not positive concerning michael finley?
just curious

thank you for your concern with this subject

Mavs#1Fan
03-26-2001, 03:03 PM
Because YOU asked that we stop a topic then YOU start it again. You were not defending your position, you were starting an argument. That's not my idea of a mature attitude.

LAM0015
03-26-2001, 03:41 PM
i apologize for your incorrect statement, but i did not start it again. Please refrain from your personal bashing.
i started talking about this again when evilmav made a statement. like i said, i would like to stop talking about this unless someone argues with me ...then i'll be forced to state my opinion.
thank you for your time