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Evilmav2
04-12-2005, 08:46 AM
http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/nba/2000/0526/photo/a_stern.jpg
Stern wants NBA age limit raised to 20: Jermaine O'Neal alleges Racism involved

ESPN.com news services

Indiana Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal said he thinks racism might have something to do with the NBA's desire to put an age limit in the next collective bargaining agreement.

"In the last two or three years, the rookie of the year has been a high school player. There were seven high school players in the All-Star Game, so why we even talking an age limit?" O'Neal said.

The past two rookies of the year were drafted out of high school: The Cavaliers' LeBron James was the 2003-04 rookie of the year, while the Suns' Amare Stoudemire won the award after the 2002-03 season.

Players currently have to be at least 18 to be drafted, but NBA commissioner David Stern would like to see the age raised to 20.

"We are seeking to raise that to 20 or two years out of high school. The NFL's minimum age is 3 years after high school. I'm optimistic the union will agree to some raise in the minimum age in the current collective bargaining," Stern said in a recent ESPN.com chat.

The NBA's seven-year labor agreement expires after the season. The union originally opposed raising the current age limit of 18, but has begun to waver.

O'Neal doesn't agree with Stern's agenda, however.

"As a black guy, you kind of think [race is] the reason why it's coming up.

"You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. Army and fight the war at 18 why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?" O'Neal said.

If the NBA had the age limit Stern is proposing in 1996, O'Neal would have had to postpone the start of his NBA career.

O'Neal went to the NBA straight out of high school in 1996 and was drafted by the Portland Trail Blazers, who made him the 17th overall selection.

O'Neal didn't blossom into the star he is today until he was dealt to the Pacers during the 2000 offseason. He has made the past three Eastern Conference All-Star teams.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2035132)

TripleDipping
04-12-2005, 08:56 AM
I presonally support this move. For every young player who forgoes college and makes it in the NBA, there're probably thousands of others who didn't.

MFFL41
04-12-2005, 09:25 AM
I'm trying to be honest and as sincere as possible but not everything a white man does is racism, My God. How is ok for a african-american to make fun of whit epeople in jokes and stuff but if oposite occurs then the NAACP will be on your a$$.

I don't mean to be rude but damn, it's not fair

capitalcity
04-12-2005, 10:09 AM
can Jermaine O'neal read yet? I remember the speculation outta high school was he had the IQ of a rock.

I can't find the info now but I recall he made like a 16 on his ACT test - and didn't even show up at the right testing site for the SAT.

mary
04-12-2005, 10:33 AM
I don't think racism is behind the age limit proposal - more like the almighty dollar. If players stay in college longer, it allows the NBA scouts to evaluate them at a highler playing level. It also allows players to develop their basketball skills - and NBA owners don't have to foot the bill for their development.

Other than that, I basically agree with him. If franchises don't want to draft teenagers, nobody is forcing them to do so. Those who aren't cut out for the NBA, will still have the opportunity to go to college. Those who are talented enough, shouldn't be forced into the NBA's pseudo farming system.

Drbio
04-12-2005, 10:39 AM
The allegation is pure stupidity.

The age limit is not. These young men don't realize how much they can gain from being forced to wait. Leon Smith anyone?

bo319
04-12-2005, 11:15 AM
JO is a main point in the arguement about age limits. Yes he was drafted out of high school...but he didn't play for 3 years. Had he gone to college or had a minor league he could hone his game in he could have gotten real playing time a year sooner. This age limit is not just for 18 y/o black kids. This age limit is for the Darko Milicic's of the world as well.

AnMan21
04-12-2005, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by: Drbio
The allegation is pure stupidity.

The age limit is not. These young men don't realize how much they can gain from being forced to wait. Leon Smith anyone?


exactly - just because they may have the game to survive in the NBA does not mean they have the maturity to handle all that comes with being in the NBA. the money, travelling, new found friends, women, etc.....it's a disaster waiting to happen for most kids that age.

MavKikiNYC
04-12-2005, 12:33 PM
The absurdity of O'Neal's musings is that he himself could stand to benefit with the higher age limit as his career progresses--fewer superstar wannabes (like he was) crowding the ranks, leaves spots for aging vets (like he'll become) who can hang on and make coin for an additional year or two.

O'Neal is damned lucky there's not a lower-limit intelligence requirement to play in the NBA. Idiots like him really diminish the appeal of the NBA as a fan spectacle.

MavKikiNYC
04-12-2005, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by: bo319
JO is a main point in the arguement about age limits. Yes he was drafted out of high school...but he didn't play for 3 years. Had he gone to college or had a minor league he could hone his game in he could have gotten real playing time a year sooner. This age limit is not just for 18 y/o black kids. This age limit is for the Darko Milicic's of the world as well.


Yes, and no. From his perspective he earned a lot more in those two years on Portland's bench than he would've at most (MOST) universities.

But still.

bo319
04-12-2005, 03:26 PM
Yes he got paid more money during those 2 years but with 2 years at a big time University he would have gone top 3 easily and made the money up. Plus he would have had the game to make an impact in less than 3 years.

mavsman55
04-12-2005, 03:30 PM
I hope he realizes that the rule applies to white people as well. This is just stupid.

jthig32
04-12-2005, 06:05 PM
While I agree the Jermaine was off base with the racism argument, I agree with him wholeheartedly about the stupidity of the age limit.

First of all, let me say that I absolutely agree that the age limit would be good for the NBA, and even better for the NCAA.

However, I can see no basis for actually arguing that it is fair in any way. A man is a man. And as soon as a man is old enough to support himself, has the ability to support himself, and has billionaires falling over themsevles to pay that man millions of dollars, who is anyone to deny him that? If the NBA doesn't want high schoolers in it's league, then get the teams to stop drafting them.

I think the NBDL being setup as a true minor leagues would be a perfect solution for this. You don't deny teenagers the chance to earn a living, but you also don't force teams to carry them on there bench without letting them develop.

kingrex
04-12-2005, 06:18 PM
Nobody forces NBA teams to draft these young players. There is no need for an age limit. If they want to protect the "too young" players, then don't drart them.

As for O'Neil's claims of racism, it is completely off-base. Unless, the age limit is only limited to one race (which it is not).

I agree there are many pitfalls for young millionaires, but putting an age limit is not the solution to that problem. Some type of mentoring program or other type of advisory group for young players would be a better solution.

Bayliss
04-12-2005, 07:06 PM
Nobody forces NBA teams to draft these young players.

Actually, they have no choice. Someone will draft them. And could you be the team that selects a 4 year senior a la Battier over LeBron/kobe/M<cGrady?

If you are that team... you won't be in existence for very long. The only ways team get better is by drafting talent. And the way the system is right now, the risk/reward for high schoolers is better than accomplished college athletes.

EricaLubarsky
04-12-2005, 07:19 PM
Also about the race thing: Jermaine O'Neal is probably basing his race card on the fact that the majority of high school players drafted out of high school are black, but he probably doesnt think about the international players which outnumber the high school players, and who are mostly white.

In the first round of 1996 (when Oneal was drafted) there were 2 American high schoolers drafted (Kobe and Oneal), and 6 international players)

23 high schoolers in the last 9 years, 39 international players

The fact is that the NBA does not need players coming out of high school to be exciting and competitive. Before 1995, there were nearly no high school players drafted (0 total in the decade before). From 1994-2000 there were only 1.3 high school players drafted per year. Since then the number has tripled and players are no longer a sure thing. Teams are betting more and more, and more high school players are falling through the cracks. We'd still get the LeBron's and the Stoudamire's, but with two years of college experience (the players would also get 2 years of education and maturity). I also don't think I like the idea of fast-paced NBA scouts hanging around the principal's offices and the gymnasiums of high schools. It just doesnt seem right.

1983- 0
1984- 0
1985- 0
1986- 0
1987- 0
1988- 0
1989- 0
1990- 0
1991- 0
1992- 0
1993- 0
1994- 0
1995- 1 (Kevin Garnett)
1996- 2 (Jermaine O'Neal, Kobe Bryant)
1997- 1 (Tracy McGrady)
1998- 1 (Al Harrington)
1999- 2 (Leon Smith, Jon Bender)
2000- 2 (DeShawn Stevenson, Darius Miles)
2001- 4 (Diop, Curry, Chandler, K. Brown)
2002- 1 (Amare Stoudamire)
2003- 4 (Ndubi Ebi, Travis Outlaw, LeBron James, and Kendrick Perkins)
2004- 6 (Robert Swift, Dwight Howard, Sebastian Telfair, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, Dorell wright)

MFFL41
04-12-2005, 07:27 PM
No one is saying the y CANT make money. They can get a job, no one's preventing that.

FilthyFinMavs
04-12-2005, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by: MFFL41
I'm trying to be honest and as sincere as possible but not everything a white man does is racism, My God. How is ok for a african-american to make fun of whit epeople in jokes and stuff but if oposite occurs then the NAACP will be on your a$$.

I don't mean to be rude but damn, it's not fair

So you're saying that you want white men to be able to joke about racism against blacks? That's not fair?

dirno2000
04-12-2005, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by: MFFL41
No one is saying the y CANT make money. They can get a job, no one's preventing that.Not if they want to play college basketball...

FilthyFinMavs
04-12-2005, 08:21 PM
From a Mavs fan perspective I hate the move. That means there will be less chances of guys like Ginobilli, Parker, Josh Howard and Gilbert Arenas slipping in the drafts. All of these teams go and draft these young projects and pass up the guys who are more developed.


I don't believe racism is the meaning behind this move I think its just Stern's way of trying to raise the level of NBA play. But what this move does do is prevent the 18 year old living in the projects from getting his family out of the ghetto. A lot of these kids can't get into Duke or North Carolina due to poor grades so I sort of see why someone would have a problem with this rule. I believe that was Kevin Garnett's case when coming out.

mavsman55
04-12-2005, 09:03 PM
There is absolutely no racism involved in this effort. Taken the fact that about 90-95% of the NBA is black, any attempt to cut down on the number of players is obviuosly going to end up cutting down on the number of African-American players.

Racism is discrimination based on race. This rule would limitation based on age, that just so happens to prevent a number young players from entering the NBA. If these players just so happen to be black, then that's the way the cookie crumbles. It's not like this rule won't prevent them from entering the NBA 2 years down the road whenever they turn 20.

Ridiculous.

Murphy3
04-12-2005, 10:43 PM
Anyone that throws out the racism card with absolutely no substance behind the claim..well, they are idiots.

Jermaine O'Neal is an idiot.

Enough said... Next story.

grbh
04-12-2005, 10:43 PM
The rascism remark is silly, but with that said:

Did Kobe contribute his rookie year: Not great but yeah
Did KG contribute his rookie year: yes
Did Amare: Yes
Did: James, hell yes

I have no problems with a developmental league for those that are not ready, and I underrstand the concern with handing bags of cash to 18 year olds. At the same time I believe it is the players decision to make.

After all I believe Dirk was only 19 when he was drafted by the Mavs (20 shortly after). I think that has worked out OK for all parties involved.

rabbitproof
04-13-2005, 12:31 AM
Racism is a wrong angle to look at it but I don't think there should be an age limit. I'm of the opinion, if you have the ability, you should be able to. If you can go hold a gun and fight in the army - why can't you play ball? Also, how many high schoolers can go straigth to the NBA anyways? About 2-4 players annually? This rule is only affecting a very small segment of the basketball playing populus - for the most part, prospects will have atleast a year of higher education before they consider going pro. For the select few who are able to do it a year or two earlier, why not? It's been mostly good for the able players and the league itself.

capitalcity
04-13-2005, 12:36 AM
Jermaine O'neal is obviously a slave - Just like Warren Sapp.

grndmstr_c
04-13-2005, 01:00 AM
After watching some of the JO talk on ESPN tonight I was ready to chime in with my two cents, but then as I was scanning the thread I saw that EL had already made the point: the age limit thing isn't just about american high school kids; it's about Euro's like Darko and Skita as well. And like Murph I absolutely abhor hearing/seeing the race card played when there's demonstrably no justification for it. JO's a moron who would do better to think before he opens his mouth.

As for the age limit proposal, I do think that the game of basketball, at both the college and pro levels, would benefit. I do wonder if a minor league by itself (without changing the age limit) might not have a comparable impact, though - at least for the NBA. I'll be interested to see how it all plays out this summer.

Epitome22
04-13-2005, 01:45 AM
I'm pretty laissez-faire on this. If the player is 18 years old, he should be eligible to pawn his wares in the NBA sans College. If he is of legal age, an NBA franchise should be able to draft him. This talk about players potentially harming their careers by being drafted out of highschool is nice and all but even if it were true, that's no justification to inhibit their rights to pawn their trade in the NBA when they are legal adults, nor the rights of an NBA franchise to take a risk and gamble on a highschool player, should they choose to do so.

FilthyFinMavs
04-13-2005, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by: Epitome22
I'm pretty laissez-faire on this. If the player is 18 years old, he should be eligible to pawn his wares in the NBA sans College. If he is of legal age, an NBA franchise should be able to draft him. This talk about players potentially harming their careers by being drafted out of highschool is nice and all but even if it were true, that's no justification to inhibit their rights to pawn their trade in the NBA when they are legal adults, nor the rights of an NBA franchise to take a risk and gamble on a highschool player, should they choose to do so.

Yea and how many of these high school players have harmed their careers by coming out early? Leon Smith is the only one to come to mind and that's 1 out of what 30 high schoolers?

capitalcity
04-13-2005, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Originally posted by: Epitome22
I'm pretty laissez-faire on this. If the player is 18 years old, he should be eligible to pawn his wares in the NBA sans College. If he is of legal age, an NBA franchise should be able to draft him. This talk about players potentially harming their careers by being drafted out of highschool is nice and all but even if it were true, that's no justification to inhibit their rights to pawn their trade in the NBA when they are legal adults, nor the rights of an NBA franchise to take a risk and gamble on a highschool player, should they choose to do so.

Yea and how many of these high school players have harmed their careers by coming out early? Leon Smith is the only one to come to mind and that's 1 out of what 30 high schoolers?If you believe entering the league underdeveloped (and therefore lower in the draft) handicapped their intial earning potential - One can argue all but LeBron & Kwame harmed their careers.

FilthyFinMavs
04-13-2005, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by: capitalcity

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Originally posted by: Epitome22
I'm pretty laissez-faire on this. If the player is 18 years old, he should be eligible to pawn his wares in the NBA sans College. If he is of legal age, an NBA franchise should be able to draft him. This talk about players potentially harming their careers by being drafted out of highschool is nice and all but even if it were true, that's no justification to inhibit their rights to pawn their trade in the NBA when they are legal adults, nor the rights of an NBA franchise to take a risk and gamble on a highschool player, should they choose to do so.

Yea and how many of these high school players have harmed their careers by coming out early? Leon Smith is the only one to come to mind and that's 1 out of what 30 high schoolers?If you believe entering the league underdeveloped (and therefore lower in the draft) handicapped their intial earning potential - One can argue all but LeBron & Kwame harmed their careers.


How so? The money from #1 to #12 where most of them are drafted isn't much of a difference. And whose to say that if these guys went to college their stock wouldn't have dropped?

AnMan21
04-13-2005, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs


But what this move does do is prevent the 18 year old living in the projects from getting his family out of the ghetto. A lot of these kids can't get into Duke or North Carolina due to poor grades so I sort of see why someone would have a problem with this rule. I believe that was Kevin Garnett's case when coming out.

There are other ways of getting out of the "ghetto." But I'm also a realist and understand people living under these circumstances don't see it that way. They think ball is the only way to get out....

Is there not a potential "trickle" down effect here? The hope is that some of these kids will recognize the fact that if they want to have a shot at playing pro ball and getting out of the "ghetto," they'll have to spend time in the books as well as on the court. Now I understand the schools are not "top-notch" in these areas, but I also know the grade requirements for athletes aren't as strict. With game and a little smarts, these kids can get into college programs. 90% won't make the NBA anyway, but now they've been left with the possibility of an education. Does this not benefit them in the long run?

MFFL41
04-13-2005, 11:55 AM
{q] Quote
Originally posted by: MFFL41
I'm trying to be honest and as sincere as possible but not everything a white man does is racism, My God. How is ok for a african-american to make fun of whit epeople in jokes and stuff but if oposite occurs then the NAACP will be on your a$$.

I don't mean to be rude but damn, it's not fair



So you're saying that you want white men to be able to joke about racism against blacks? That's not fair? [/quote]

I didn't say that and don't put words in my mouth. I'm using it as an example.

Charles Barkley wrote a new book about racism and says it's the ancer of his time. Well, you know, what does he keep saying. "Oh, he's a soft white boy that can't play" Is that not racist, I would say it is. But he wants blacks to be able to do anything and whites to shut up. As a white guy, i get offended at such stuff, but you have to sit back and deal with it. We have no NAACP for whites. I'm trying to be sincere as possible but it's just annoying and frustrating as hell. If blacks want racism to stop they ahve to stop too.

FilthyFinMavs
04-13-2005, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by: MFFL41
{q] Quote
Originally posted by: MFFL41
I'm trying to be honest and as sincere as possible but not everything a white man does is racism, My God. How is ok for a african-american to make fun of whit epeople in jokes and stuff but if oposite occurs then the NAACP will be on your a$$.

I don't mean to be rude but damn, it's not fair



So you're saying that you want white men to be able to joke about racism against blacks? That's not fair?

I didn't say that and don't put words in my mouth. I'm using it as an example.

Charles Barkley wrote a new book about racism and says it's the ancer of his time. Well, you know, what does he keep saying. "Oh, he's a soft white boy that can't play" Is that not racist, I would say it is. But he wants blacks to be able to do anything and whites to shut up. As a white guy, i get offended at such stuff, but you have to sit back and deal with it. We have no NAACP for whites. I'm trying to be sincere as possible but it's just annoying and frustrating as hell. If blacks want racism to stop they ahve to stop too.[/quote]



I never said you said that I was just simply asking what you meant. It's annoying and frustrating as hell when I see or hear people say "How is ok for a african-american to make fun of whit epeople in jokes and stuff but if oposite occurs then the NAACP will be on your a$$." In my eyes that's basically saying it's unfair that we don't get to joke about racism but blacks do. Is it african americans fault that white people don't have the NAACP? Who is preventing whites from having a NAACP of their own? I just don't understand your frustration. And trust me, if a black comedian stopped joking about other races it wouldn't prevent racism. You think if Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle quit choking about other races the KKK will all of a sudden disband?

FilthyFinMavs
04-13-2005, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by: AnMan21

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs


But what this move does do is prevent the 18 year old living in the projects from getting his family out of the ghetto. A lot of these kids can't get into Duke or North Carolina due to poor grades so I sort of see why someone would have a problem with this rule. I believe that was Kevin Garnett's case when coming out.

There are other ways of getting out of the "ghetto." But I'm also a realist and understand people living under these circumstances don't see it that way. They think ball is the only way to get out....

Is there not a potential "trickle" down effect here? The hope is that some of these kids will recognize the fact that if they want to have a shot at playing pro ball and getting out of the "ghetto," they'll have to spend time in the books as well as on the court. Now I understand the schools are not "top-notch" in these areas, but I also know the grade requirements for athletes aren't as strict. With game and a little smarts, these kids can get into college programs. 90% won't make the NBA anyway, but now they've been left with the possibility of an education. Does this not benefit them in the long run?



I think you make it sound a lot easier than it is. And I hate to say it but kids aren't thinking about if they become a doctor or lawyer they can get out of poverty. The first things that come to mind are sports or becoming rappers because those relie less on studying and more on what that kid likes to do. If i'm a kid that's 18 years old and get the opportunity to get an education than i'm definately going to do it but put yourself in a 18 year olds body for a minute. No father in the household and your forced to raise your sister and brothers while your mom attempts to bring food home. I don't understand how raising the age from 18 to 20 benefits either party.

rabbitproof
04-13-2005, 01:59 PM
Just because the age limit could affect a white kid does not mean it might not be racially-motivated - the majority of players who would be affected ARE minorities or blacks, more specifically, per JO.

The lawyer term is disparate impact. When voting booths used literacy tests, it might have disbarred some whites from voting but the system was put in to target a specific group of people - racism, even if it had the potential residual effects of impacting non-blacks. I don't think the NBA is that nazi but the issues that are bring brought up (lack of higher education, not mature enough to handle the stardom) are not issues where the stars in sporting arenas are predominantly white (tennis, hockey, golf).

EricaLubarsky
04-13-2005, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by: rabbitproof
Just because the age limit could affect a white kid does not mean it might not be racially-motivated - the majority of players who would be affected ARE minorities or blacks, more specifically, per JO.

Until there is a year where it would effect black american kids more than international players, then that statement is completely without merit.

mary
04-13-2005, 02:31 PM
Two things in this thread that make me giggle:

1. O'Neal thinking age limits are racially motivated.

2. Posters suggesting age limits are being sought because they're in the best interest of the young athlete.


I've more to say - will post later (i know you can't wait i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif )

EricaLubarsky
04-13-2005, 02:33 PM
I'd like to hear more about your second point, Mary. What do you think the motivation is there? I still havent figured it out myself.

NCAA pressure? team-attached mior leagues? Team development dollars?

AnMan21
04-13-2005, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs


I think you make it sound a lot easier than it is. And I hate to say it but kids aren't thinking about if they become a doctor or lawyer they can get out of poverty. The first things that come to mind are sports or becoming rappers because those relie less on studying and more on what that kid likes to do. If i'm a kid that's 18 years old and get the opportunity to get an education than i'm definately going to do it but put yourself in a 18 year olds body for a minute. No father in the household and your forced to raise your sister and brothers while your mom attempts to bring food home. I don't understand how raising the age from 18 to 20 benefits either party.

i understand that's not what they're thinking about when they're trying to get out of poverty....i think i even said as much in my statement. all i'm trying to point out is that if it now requires a little brains to ultimately play pro ball - is that a bad thing? if kids living in poverty give up because they'll have to try in the classroom, then i don't have any sympathy for them.

ultimately no, this is not the reason the NBA wants to impose an age limit. they feel it'll increase the talent level across the board (NCAA and NBA). however, it's clear to me this is why JO made his comment. i feel he was trying to say, "they're taking the opportunity away from a kid in poverty to get out." implying the majority of those kids in poverty are black. now you have every kid growing up in the ghetto listening to him saying, "yeah, it's bullsh*t," all the while every one of them thinks they're getting out because they have a jump shot. when in fact 99% of them won't make it out, and now they don't have an education either.

on the other hand, if they feel basketball is the only way out of the ghetto, but in order to play they have to devote some time in the classroom, they'll gain a little education, eventually the harsh reality most of us come to (we won't be playing sports forever) hits them, but because they hit the books a little, now they can get in to college and do better for themselves - which, because of affirmitive action, is not a totally unrealistic possibility. i understand it will not work like that from the beginning, but if 10 young kids realize it, then i'll feel it's one great, "overlooked" outcome of an age limit.

it's well past time for the NBA to stop glorifying the uneducated. they need to start putting the spotlight on players like Emeka Okafor, who not only is one helluva basketball player, but also a 3 year college graduate, with honors. and it's especially time for those living in the ghetto to stop labeling education as "uncool."

FilthyFinMavs
04-13-2005, 04:17 PM
i understand that's not what they're thinking about when they're trying to get out of poverty....i think i even said as much in my statement.


Yea I caught what you were saying. I was agreeing with you on that. I don't disagree with anything in your post but I don't think these kids think educations is uncool it's just they put basketball before education. Now I would agree with that as a reason to raise the age limit but that's not Stern's objective. His objective is to raise the level of the game of the NBA and NCAA without taking the players into consideration.

AnMan21
04-13-2005, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

i understand that's not what they're thinking about when they're trying to get out of poverty....i think i even said as much in my statement.


Yea I caught what you were saying. I was agreeing with you on that. I don't disagree with anything in your post but I don't think these kids think educations is uncool it's just they put basketball before education. Now I would agree with that as a reason to raise the age limit but that's not Stern's objective. His objective is to raise the level of the game of the NBA and NCAA without taking the players into consideration.

i totally agree - again, i said the same. but some objectives have additional value, and i think there's possibility for this one to have a great impact.

mary
04-13-2005, 05:11 PM
it's well past time for the NBA to stop glorifying the uneducated. they need to start putting the spotlight on players like Emeka Okafor, who not only is one helluva basketball player, but also a 3 year college graduate, with honors. and it's especially time for those living in the ghetto to stop labeling education as "uncool."


Real quickly...I agree that many youngsters coming out of school lack an adequate education - but that's something we need to fix that at the elementary and high school levels. I think alot of the "education is uncool" mentality falls on bad parenting. That's something I'm not willing to put on the shoulders of NBA "role models". I'd like to elaborate, but... I'm in a hurry.

rabbitproof
04-13-2005, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

Originally posted by: rabbitproof
Just because the age limit could affect a white kid does not mean it might not be racially-motivated - the majority of players who would be affected ARE minorities or blacks, more specifically, per JO.

Until there is a year where it would effect black american kids more than international players, then that statement is completely without merit.


Are you saying only blacks are minorities? Asians and Latinos are also minorities.

EricaLubarsky
04-13-2005, 06:26 PM
what?

I appreciate the sociology lesson, but I have no idea how you got that out of what I said.

Slovenia, Poland, France, Germany, Russia, Serbia, Montenegro, Latvia, Croatia, Georgia, Czech Republic, Yugoslavia, Australia, Greece, Lithuania, Spain, even Turkey....

AnMan21
04-13-2005, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by: mary

it's well past time for the NBA to stop glorifying the uneducated. they need to start putting the spotlight on players like Emeka Okafor, who not only is one helluva basketball player, but also a 3 year college graduate, with honors. and it's especially time for those living in the ghetto to stop labeling education as "uncool."


Real quickly...I agree that many youngsters coming out of school lack an adequate education - but that's something we need to fix that at the elementary and high school levels. I think alot of the "education is uncool" mentality falls on bad parenting. That's something I'm not willing to put on the shoulders of NBA "role models". I'd like to elaborate, but... I'm in a hurry.


i wasn't trying to imply that the blame rests soley on the shoulders of the NBA. it should be the parents responsibility, but the problem is these parents never made it out themselves, like their parents before them.....and so even these parents think it's the only way out. "if my son can get to the NBA, then he's out AND i'm out." so they push it - in fact, inner city parents are FOUR times more likely to believe their sons can make it professionally. the kids are encouraged to spend countless hours developing skills that most of them will never use. around 3500 african americans are playing professional sports, almost 10x as many are doctors and lawyers and that number could greatly increase if instead of being able to hit a fadeaway, the kids focused on skills they'll use all their life (english, science, math).

so these kids aren't getting the proper guidance from home, and the players that are glorified aren't always the best role models, then how do you fix it? the schools can't make the kids learn. they can't show up at their doors and drag them off to school. they can't force the parents to be involved and supportive of an education. that's why i think the NBA ( and other leagues should do their part). "To whom much is given, much is expected." because they touch so many kids, the professional sports leagues can have a tremendous affect on our youth by implementing really minor changes to their systems. they rely so heavily on kids to buy the jerseys, cards, hats, etc....it should be their responsibility to look for ways to improve those same youth.

rabbitproof
04-14-2005, 08:06 PM
Cockroaching off an ESPN article but the Euros have their own professional leagues. 18, 19 year old kids will still be playing pro ball in Europe (making money, traveling). The American high schoolers (which are mostly black) don't. So the purpose 'of encouraging education' and discouraging young ballplayers playing professionally is really only going to affect US HSers.

Again, I don't think the age limit agenda is specifically targeting blacks but American high schoolers who are capable of making the jump (almost all black) take the biggest hit if this change were to happen - not necessairely quantatively (of course, there will be a higher number of international cats vs american HS cats) but in impact.

Of course, it can be said that's the way the cookie crumbles, etc.

Murphy3
04-14-2005, 09:21 PM
The last time I checked, there are many Americans that play in Europe. I'm sure that if a high school kid just had to play, he could go over to Europe or even stay in the U.S. and play in a league other than the NBA.

chumdawg
04-14-2005, 11:51 PM
I haven't yet formed an opinion on JO's claim of racism, but I am strongly against any age limit on acceptance into the league. Why should a teenager be able to go play in Europe or play in a lesser league in the US but not be able to play in the NBA? That makes no sense (especially the part about the other US leagues). A pro is a pro is a pro. How can the NBA pretend to be somehow exempt from precedent?

Of course they can negotiate whatever they want into their collective bargaining agreement. But they should at least be up-front about their reasons for doing so.

rabbitproof
04-15-2005, 12:37 AM
WTF would be the point of being able to play pro in every league in the world but the NBA - if the goal is to make sure the kids get an education? At that point, the age limit merely becomes a shelter for the NBA's elderly (senior citizens who ought to be phased out anyway if the NBA is really composed of the best of the best).

Then again, if there was a 4/6-team league featuring all our teenage stars - people would defintely tune into that. I'm sure the NBA would've LOVED seeing LeBron playing in another league. It might be more interesting then the ATL, CHAR or NO games but that's another issue.

Perhaps the age limit isn't about letting the kids grow as individuals or preserving the grey but rather the NBA wants to have a more college-like game - more passing, more real point guards, etc. From that standpoint, I would be more inclined to agree with the motive (getting the kids to develop as players) but still not the action. I would prefer a development league rather then an age limit even though an age floor is defintely more friendly financially then a farm system - of course, it's not my bankroll.

MFFL41
04-15-2005, 08:47 AM
I think somehow they have to curve "The Sportscenter Rules" (if you will) . What do kids try to do. Dunk and shoot three's really. I like what the NBA is doing, it has to change or fans will become less and less enthused about the game.

Hey, if the NFL does it, the NBA has every right to do as well. That will hold up in court as well, so everyone that says it's unconstitutional needs to go to law school.

Plus the NBA isn't preventing kids from making money. There's different ways to make money. It's only a two year wait, everyone's making such a big deal about it like they're NREVER gonna get paid OMG.

Charles made a great pointlast night (for once). the draft is designed where teams get immediate hlep. Now teams (Hawks for example) are taking these high school kids or foreign players that aren't proven. Well they haven't been in the playoffs since when? It hurts the fans more than anything.

MFFL41
04-15-2005, 08:50 AM
i understand that's not what they're thinking about when they're trying to get out of poverty....i think i even said as much in my statement.




Yea I caught what you were saying. I was agreeing with you on that. I don't disagree with anything in your post but I don't think these kids think educations is uncool it's just they put basketball before education. Now I would agree with that as a reason to raise the age limit but that's not Stern's objective. His objective is to raise the level of the game of the NBA and NCAA without taking the players into consideration.

I just want to know. It's not like these college players aren't getting scholarships. Every player that came out of high school last year had a chance to go to college somewhere. Everyone is making it seem like if they don't go to the NBA they will be screwed. It's simply not true.

It's sad but everyone just thinks about making money, nothing more.

MavKikiNYC
04-15-2005, 10:13 PM
A No-Look Assist Into the N.B.A.
By LIZ ROBBINS

ASHEVILLE, N.C. - The back door was open, the bus revving for a five-hour ride and Dennis Johnson was antsy for his star player to stop talking.

The baby-faced William Parker, known as Smush, his jewelry too bright for the minor-league Asheville Civic Center, had just recorded his second triple-double of the season to lead the Florida Flame to a victory over the Asheville Altitude.

Three years after leaving Fordham after his sophomore year, he is a journeyman at age 23. "I'm doing exactly what I wanted to do, I'm playing professional basketball," Parker said, beaming between his diamond-studded ears. "Unfortunately, it's not at the level I would like it to be. My foot's in the door, and I'm going to keep playing until I get there."

But the problem was that his foot was not yet out of the door.

"Smush! Come on, let's go! We're out of here," Johnson yelled.

In delivering that message, Johnson, the former Boston Celtics All-Star, the one-time coach of the Los Angeles Clippers and now the first-year coach of the Flame, had articulated the current underlying purpose of the National Basketball Development League: Win. And get back to the N.B.A.

"I have no doubt in my mind I will get there," Johnson said. "I got to get lucky enough to wind up on somebody's bench. If I'm 72, I'm still going to be doing it. I got this in my blood. I'm no different than anyone in this league."

In the development league, they are all eyeing the door to a second chance. There is Asheville Coach Joey Meyer, who spent a quarter of a century coaching at DePaul before being fired in 1997. And Kermit Washington, a special assistant to Meyer who is still known for throwing the punch that nearly killed Rudy Tomjanovich in a 1977 N.B.A. brawl. And there is guard Joe Forte, a first-round pick in the 2001 N.B.A. draft, who is here by his own undoing.

They are all part of the six-team D-League, which N.B.A. Commissioner David Stern established at the beginning of the 2001-2002 season in Southeastern markets with modest-sized arenas, and which has been as transient as its players in its financially shaky four years of existence.

Only one team, the Flame, in Fort Myers, is independently owned this year, with the N.B.A. controlling the local expenses and revenues of the other clubs. To operate the league, the N.B.A. spends "seven figures," according to the N.B.A.'s deputy commissioner, Russ Granik. He acknowledged that the D-League has been losing money on the venture since it began, although he said the league could break even next season.

The league plans to add four more teams next season, all of them in the Southwest and all of them owned by David Kahn, a former executive with the Indiana Pacers.

Ten players are on the roster of each of the current six teams, and the top salary is $24,000 for a 48-game season. The average attendance this season is 1,605. And relatively few may hear the tree falling when Asheville opens the D-League playoffs at home against the Huntsville (Ala.) Flight tonight in a single-game semifinal elimination.

But the relevance of the D-League is growing within N.B.A. circles. It is being discussed in collective-bargaining talks with the N.B.A. players union and in conjunction with Stern's proposal that players be prevented from entering the N.B.A. until they are 20 years old, an issue that has become the hot button of the labor talks.

Stern's plan, which he announced in March, is to expand the D-League into a 15-team entity, with each team shared by two N.B.A. clubs. It would provide the N.B.A. with a full-fledged minor league system, and a place to send younger players to develop rather than stashing them at the end of an N.B.A. bench. Right now, players must be 20 years old to play in the D-League, but that age limit would presumably be dropped if one were installed in the N.B.A.

It would be a shift in purpose for the D-League, which, like its more established rival, the Continental Basketball Association, is not designed for players on the way up, but for those who need redeveloping.

"The hope is, through bargaining with the players, we'll be able to make the development league stronger for prospective players, ones who maybe fall just short of making an N.B.A. team," Granik said.

But where would Forte fit in Granik's description of a redefined league? He plays for the Altitude and is Exhibit A when it comes to underachieving. Asked how he perceived the D-League, he said: "It's for those guys that either had a super talent and didn't have the right attitude or didn't mature. Or it's for guys who don't have the talent but think they have the potential because they can develop."

Bill Guthridge, Forte's coach at North Carolina, was sitting courtside in a nearly empty row last Friday in Asheville. He said he and his predecessor, Dean Smith, had advised Forte not to leave college after two years.

But Forte, a McDonald's all-American and the Atlantic Coast Conference rookie of the year in 2000, said he clashed with Matt Doherty, the Tar Heels coach, and felt he was ready for the draft.

In two years, on two N.B.A. teams, Forte said he sulked on the bench, refused to go on the injured list when he was not injured, fought with teammates and was arrested on a possession-of-marijuana charge. Finally, the Seattle SuperSonics cut him with a year left on his $3.2 million contract.

"Me being an All-American and not playing, emotionally, I wasn't able to deal with that," Forte said. He took one year off and reluctantly joined the D-League, out of shape and out of sorts.

"I feel like I took away from my basketball, as far as my reputation," he said. "The only way to get it back, or at least attempt to get it back, is coming to the D-League."

Meyer has been relentless, but caring, in coaching him. "I think he deserves another look," Meyer said. "Has he got it completely together yet? No. His game is getting better, his attitude is getting better."

Meyer added, "I said when I came here, my job is to get them better and get them called up."

This season, there have been 11 players called up to the N.B.A.; over four years, there have been 50. For a league motivated by moving on, community allegiance has been difficult to find. "We haven't done as well as we would have liked as far as selling this product in the Southeast," D-League Commissioner Phil Evans said in Asheville, where he sat with about 600 fans last Saturday. The league's first two champions - Greenville (S.C.) and Mobile (Ala.) - folded within a year. There is talk that Asheville, last year's champion, will be eliminated after this season, with attendance having dropped 35 percent.

For now, the D-League limps along, providing a home for players like Parker, the Newton High School star from Queens. A 6-foot-4 guard with spindly legs, Parker played at Southern Idaho Junior College and then played one season at Fordham. Undrafted, Parker played the 2002-2003 season with the Cleveland Cavaliers, followed by a season in Greece and two quick stints this season with the Detroit Pistons and the Phoenix Suns.

"I go from the N.B.A., staying in the Ritz Carlton, to the Comfort Suites," Parker said. "No room service, no minibar, no two or three pillows on the bed." The N.B.A. per diem was $96, compared with $90 for a three-day trip on a cramped bus.

"It's someplace I don't want to be next year," he said before getting on the bus. "And I'm going to work even harder, on and off the court, for next season."

FilthyFinMavs
04-16-2005, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by: MFFL41

i understand that's not what they're thinking about when they're trying to get out of poverty....i think i even said as much in my statement.




Yea I caught what you were saying. I was agreeing with you on that. I don't disagree with anything in your post but I don't think these kids think educations is uncool it's just they put basketball before education. Now I would agree with that as a reason to raise the age limit but that's not Stern's objective. His objective is to raise the level of the game of the NBA and NCAA without taking the players into consideration.

I just want to know. It's not like these college players aren't getting scholarships. Every player that came out of high school last year had a chance to go to college somewhere. Everyone is making it seem like if they don't go to the NBA they will be screwed. It's simply not true.

It's sad but everyone just thinks about making money, nothing more.


well that is the case with some people. Not everyone is prepared from college. Especially a lot of these kids that are coming straight out of high school who come from poverty.

FilthyFinMavs
04-16-2005, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by: MFFL41
I think somehow they have to curve "The Sportscenter Rules" (if you will) . What do kids try to do. Dunk and shoot three's really. I like what the NBA is doing, it has to change or fans will become less and less enthused about the game.

Hey, if the NFL does it, the NBA has every right to do as well. That will hold up in court as well, so everyone that says it's unconstitutional needs to go to law school.

Plus the NBA isn't preventing kids from making money. There's different ways to make money. It's only a two year wait, everyone's making such a big deal about it like they're NREVER gonna get paid OMG.

Charles made a great pointlast night (for once). the draft is designed where teams get immediate hlep. Now teams (Hawks for example) are taking these high school kids or foreign players that aren't proven. Well they haven't been in the playoffs since when? It hurts the fans more than anything.


The Hawks had arguably their best draft in recent years last year when getting high schooler Josh Smith. The NFL age limit rule is for the players safety not the NFL game. A high schooler won't make it to 2nd down if he's brought into the NFL at 18. That's not the same case as the NBA where Lebron is playing as if he's been in this league for years.

kingrex
04-19-2005, 12:11 PM
An NBA age limit is neither racist nor necessary.

It is true that the majority of players going into the NBA out of high school are African-American, and would therefore be the group most affected by this rule, however, to say that the rule is racist is as ridiculous as saying that the NHL lock-out is reverse discrimination because most of the NHL players are white. The rule is not meant to keep a single segment out, it is intended to either improve the quality of the game or "protect" the young players from the pitfalls of being an NBA player. I feel, however, that if this is truly the NBA's intent, then their proposed solution is ineffective.

To this point I believe the rule is unnecessary. Firstly, if the quality of the game is in jeopardy because these young players are "not playing the right way", then fix it through coaching. That's what coaches are supposed to do, teach them how to play the "right way". Whatever the "right way" means to the NBA. The fact that they are coming straight out of high school does is not a detriment to their coachability.

Secondly, if they truly want to "protect" these young players, then provide a mandatory mentoring system of some type to guide them throught the "pitfalls" of the league. I saw a great piece on how Antonio Davis has taken several young players under his wing on every team he has played to show them how to be a professional. It made me realize how effective this approach can be. I believe that would be the best way to keep these young players on the straight and narrow. Teach them how to make the right decision.

So, in short, this rule is not really going to solve what the NBA contends it will solve, moveover, I don't believe it is meant to supress the financial progress of specifically African-American players.