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mary
05-01-2005, 10:13 PM
Van Gundy Challenges Officials and Says an Owner Is to Blame
By LIZ ROBBINS

Published: May 2, 2005
New York Times

DALLAS, May 1 - Jeff Van Gundy, the Houston Rockets' coach, said Sunday that officials were calling fouls more readily, and unfairly, on his 7-foot-6 center, Yao Ming.

Van Gundy also suggested that complaints to the league by the Dallas owner, Mark Cuban, had been to blame, something the N.B.A. immediately denied.

"When you review his fouls, you look there and you got to give Mark Cuban credit," Van Gundy said after the Rockets had a meeting at their hotel. "He's been calling and calling about Yao. You got to give the guy credit. He's taken a lot of fines in his time, and he's been on them hard. And he's gotten the benefit."

Van Gundy said that after the Mavericks' 97-93 victory Saturday in Game 2, which tied their playoff series at two games each, he received an unsolicited call from a friend who is a league referee not working the playoffs. The referee, Van Gundy said, told him that referees "were looking at Yao harder because of Mark's complaints."

Van Gundy declined to identify the official, saying, "I don't want to get my man in trouble."

He added, "I didn't think that really worked in the N.B.A., but in this case it has."

Yao fouled out in Game 1 and had five fouls each in Games 3 and 4.

Stu Jackson, the N.B.A's vice president, rejected Van Gundy's comments in a statement Sunday night.

"No such directive was given to the officials regarding Yao Ming or any other player or team in the playoffs," Jackson said.

Van Gundy said, "I think Yao all year has had a target on his back, for whatever reason, whether it's his size, his kindness, whatever, there's many other things it could be, too."

Van Gundy cited what he called an illegal screen that Dallas's Erick Dampier set to spring Michael Finley for a late shot Saturday, saying it was the same movement that Yao had been whistled for.

Text (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/02/sports/basketball/02vangundy.html?oref=login)

EricaLubarsky
05-01-2005, 10:18 PM
Anyone else see the post-game interviews? McGrady denied that he was the last one to touch the ball, even though the video clearly showed the call was right, and then JVG was about in tears. It was sad really. It was one of those moments that was awkward and uncomfortable just to watch.

capitalcity
05-01-2005, 10:18 PM
Desperate measures from the captain of a sinking ship.

MavKikiNYC
05-01-2005, 10:20 PM
Van Gundy may be right.

But it's even more disturbing that an NBA official would be having a private conversation with JVG regarding officiating policy.

There should be a strict non-fraternization policy between referees and NBA players/coaches/GMs.

This brings to mind the seedy story about referee Ed Rush trying to impress some hotel hoochie-woman by giving her the telephone number to Michael Jordan's room. She and Jordan hooked up, carried on some kind of relationship that ultimately led to a lawsuit, charges of extortion, and which contributed to the breakup of MJ's marriage.

We barely see the tip of the iceberg on the kind of stuff like this that goes on.

LordOfTheMavs
05-01-2005, 10:28 PM
Van Gundy has fired back in the press and the refs will be laying off of Yao now. He is doing what any coach worth his salt would do. Give his team an advantage. Cuban as an owner, used his power and now JVG is using his statements to the media to do the same.

When it all is said and done, Cuban statements from a couple of years ago, when he tried to get the league to use an outside objective review commitee, were right on.

When you can play games in the media and behind closed doors to influence officiating then thier is something wrong with the system. That is what Cuban has been fighting against for some time now. It hurts the product that he is invested in, because the fans aren't stupid and can see it even if the stupid media can't.

Windmill360
05-01-2005, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Anyone else see the post-game interviews? McGrady denied that he was the last one to touch the ball, even though the video clearly showed the call was right, and then JVG was about in tears. It was sad really. It was one of those moments that was awkward and uncomfortable just to watch.

I'm not for sure but I think McGrady was asked the question, "Did he [Howard] touch you?" and he responded by saying, "No, he didn't touch me [while Howard slapped the ball lose]".

XERXES
05-01-2005, 10:40 PM
JVG is playing chess. He's trying to create a stir so that the officials will think twice before they call a frivolous foul on Yao. You have to hand it to him. Yes, it is the plea of a desperate man- but it's also pretty shrewd.

ocelot_ark
05-01-2005, 10:53 PM
Whine, whine, whine. That's all Houston knows how to do. I'm sure clutchcity is going apeshit. They're probably erecting a statue in JVG's honor right now. It looks a lot like a compost heap.

JBIIRockets
05-01-2005, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC


There should be a strict non-fraternization policy between referees and NBA players/coaches/GMs.



don't forget nba team owners.

grndmstr_c
05-01-2005, 10:55 PM
It's the same story every year. Every playoff team's got somebody lobbying for the refs to call things a little differently.

ocelot_ark
05-01-2005, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by: JBIIRockets

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC


There should be a strict non-fraternization policy between referees and NBA players/coaches/GMs.



don't forget nba team owners.

Hey dumb shit...Cuban hasn't had direct contact with the refs. A certain troll of a coach, OTOH, has.

kg_veteran
05-01-2005, 10:59 PM
Can he point to any specific calls against Yao that were WRONG? I didn't see any bad foul calls on him in Game 4.

What a whiner. Sure, he's playing chess, but let's hope the refs don't succumb.

Phil Helmuth
05-01-2005, 11:01 PM
Can someone send him a box of extra strength box of Midol? His bitching is almost as bad as their fans.

JBIIRockets
05-01-2005, 11:08 PM
[i]Originally posted by: ocelot_ark

Hey dumb shit...Cuban hasn't had direct contact with the refs. A certain troll of a coach, OTOH, has.

Sure he hasn't oceloser. You go ahead and believe that if it makes you feel good. Surely you are a smarter nba fan that to believe that. Then again, your icon is that of a retard.

capitalcity
05-01-2005, 11:13 PM
Stupid Rocket fans. They Just Bitch II much.

EricaLubarsky
05-01-2005, 11:13 PM
how clever! you turned ocelot into oceloser! Be proud of yourself.

kg_veteran
05-01-2005, 11:14 PM
I must have missed it, then. Which referee has Cuban had direct contact with? Van Gundy ADMITTED that he's had direct contact with a referee. If Cuban complained to the league offices or to the head of officiating about Yao, isn't that going through the appropriate channels? Seems to me that it is.

Don_Didi
05-01-2005, 11:38 PM
Maybe Avery can go on a tirade about Dampier being "singled out" next, just for the heck of it. JVG shouldn't complain, at least he has had consistent results when Yao has been on the floor. It's basketball, not everything goes your way. Deal with it.

chumdawg
05-01-2005, 11:41 PM
If Cuban went through the proper channels and got an answer, what is at all wrong with sharing that answer with the opponent as well? In fact, wouldn't we expect that both teams would be privy to the same information? Cuban says: Can you watch for these fouls by Yao? And the referees say to him: Yes, we will do that. If they did NOT share that information with the Rockets as well, then there would be ethical questions, in my opinion.

So I don't see what the big deal is, why JVG has to worry about getting "his man" in trouble. But I agree with Keke that the most remarkable part of this story is that JVG has a man at all among the officials.

LRB
05-02-2005, 12:15 AM
JVG is just playing the game that coaches have played for decades now in the NBA. Hell Nellie was one of the best at it. It's a shame though that the outcome of NBA can be influenced so easily through press statements. But then again the NBA ref system is more corrupt that a 3rd world custom service. And the NBA makes so by keeping everything behind closed doors.

FilthyFinMavs
05-02-2005, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Anyone else see the post-game interviews? McGrady denied that he was the last one to touch the ball, even though the video clearly showed the call was right, and then JVG was about in tears. It was sad really. It was one of those moments that was awkward and uncomfortable just to watch.

Sort of reminds me of his comment "It feels good to be out of the second round".

G-Man
05-02-2005, 01:53 AM
What makes Van Gundy's whine particularly noxious is the fact that his center only plays well when Dampier is sitting with fouls. So he plants this crap to try to get Yao even more Damp free minutes.

I say stop calling fouls on both centers and just let 'em go at it mano a mano. You wouldn't hear whining, you'd hear that 7'6 guy Yao-ling like a baby.

mary
05-02-2005, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Can he point to any specific calls against Yao that were WRONG? I didn't see any bad foul calls on him in Game 4.

What a whiner. Sure, he's playing chess, but let's hope the refs don't succumb.

After reading most of clutchcity, I can answer this question for you, at least partially.

Houston fans (or at least a great majority of those that post at clutchcity), feel that the 4th offensive foul that Yao picked up on Dirk was directly the result of an acting job by Dirk. Dirk and Yao were batting for position in the post, and Yao got rung up for an elbow. The perception is over there that whenever Yao is nearby, Dirk snaps his head back in front of refs to create the illusion that Yao is fouling him, and that no actual contact was made with Dirk's head and Yao's elbow.

I haven't reat anywhere that JVG or anyone else felt the same way - but that particular foul has been widely discussed at whine-and-bitch-because-we-are-rooting-for-losers city.

mary
05-02-2005, 02:22 AM
For what its worth, Adelman also "worked over" NBA officials in the media before tonight's game. Fat lot of good it did him though, as the Kings got blown out.

I expect a similar result tonight, and all of JVG's posturing will be for naught.

kriD
05-02-2005, 07:01 AM
Mavericks Notes

Cuban defends his actions

By Art Garcia and Mercedes Mayer
Star-Telegram Staff Writers

DALLAS - Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy obviously isn't a fan of Mark Cuban's crusade to improve officiating.

Van Gundy has suggested that Cuban's willingness to speak out against officiating -- and to pay numerous fines in the process -- has created an unfair advantage against Houston's Yao Ming. In an interview Sunday with The New York Times, Houston's KRIV-TV and the Houston Chronicle, Van Gundy said: "You've got to give Mark Cuban credit. They said it on TNT [Saturday] night.

"He's been calling [NBA headquarters] and calling about Yao, and you've got to give the guy credit. He's taken a lot of fines in his time, and he's been on them hard and he's gotten the benefit."

Van Gundy said Cuban's outspokenness has hurt Yao Ming and the Rockets the past two games.

"Before Game 3, I got a call from another official in the NBA who is not in the playoffs that I've known forever, and they told me they were looking at Yao harder because of Mark's complaints. That proved prophetic the last couple of games. I didn't think that really worked in the NBA, but in this case it has."

But Cuban said the NBA is not giving preferential treatment through its officiating.

"That's crazy. It's also an insult to officials," Cuban said Sunday via e-mail. "They don't officiate individual players differently. Did [Van Gundy] notice that [Erick Dampier] has gotten two quick fouls in every game, and has been limited by foul trouble? Has he ever looked at Shawn Bradley's fouls per minute? They both seem to have the same type of fouls called on them."

Bradley had four fouls in 10 minutes in the first two games (Houston victories) of the series. In the Mavs' two victories, Dampier played 19 minutes in Game 3 and picked up five fouls, and fouled out of Game 4 after an 18-minute stint.

Yao has five fouls in each of the past two games and played an average of 29.5 minutes. He has been the usual partner for Tracy McGrady high screen-and-rolls.

Cuban sent a list to the NBA office of what the Mavs considered to be moving screens by Yao and Dikembe Mutombo from Game 1, which the Rockets won 98-86.

"We wanted clarification from the league if our assessment of what was going on was correct," Cuban said. "The league came back and told us of the 28 that we turned in from this game, nine were actually moving screens and should have been called but were not."

A better plan

It's not that the Mavericks have decided to scrap any idea of guarding Houston's hot hand, Tracy McGrady.

But, with McGrady averaging 31.5 points through four games, the Mavs have almost resorted to letting McGrady get his points while trying to stop everybody else.

The transition to focusing on the Rockets' role players began in Game 3, which the Mavs won, and it continued with the Mavs' Game 4 victory. In Games 1 and 2, role players Mike James, Jon Barry and Bob Sura came up big, scoring a combined 72 points or 12.0 points per game. Other than Sura's 21 points in Game 3, none of the three has scored more than seven points in the past two games.

McGrady scored 36 points Saturday night, but only one other Rockets player -- Yao Ming (20) -- scored in double figures. Before Game 4, at least three players had at least 10 points in each game for Houston.

Briefly

• Game 6 of the series is scheduled for an 8:30 p.m. tipoff Thursday in Houston. It will be televised on TNT and KTXA/Ch. 21.

• The Mavs' free-throw shooting has gotten better throughout the series. After missing nine the first game, they missed seven in Game 2 and only five each in games 3 and 4. Dirk Nowitzki has made 22 consecutive free throws in the series.

• One series-long trend continued in Game 4, as the losing team won the rebounding advantage. The Rockets outrebounded the Mavs 37-32 in Game 4.

Staff Writer Dwain Price Contributed to This Report.

kriD
05-02-2005, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by: mary
Houston fans (or at least a great majority of those that post at clutchcity), feel that the 4th offensive foul that Yao picked up on Dirk was directly the result of an acting job by Dirk. Dirk and Yao were batting for position in the post, and Yao got rung up for an elbow. The perception is over there that whenever Yao is nearby, Dirk snaps his head back in front of refs to create the illusion that Yao is fouling him, and that no actual contact was made with Dirk's head and Yao's elbow.
In this particular case the Housten fans are at least half right. There was no contact whatsoever between Dirk's head and Yao's elbow. You could clearly see it on the slow-mo. The head snap was indeed an acting job by Dirk.

BUT what the fans fail to see is, the foul (I guess "semi-high elbow"?) was called milliseconds BEFORE Dirk acted it out. As much as I hate flopping, it wasn't the reason for the admittedly questionable call...

mary
05-02-2005, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by: kriD

Originally posted by: mary
Houston fans (or at least a great majority of those that post at clutchcity), feel that the 4th offensive foul that Yao picked up on Dirk was directly the result of an acting job by Dirk. Dirk and Yao were batting for position in the post, and Yao got rung up for an elbow. The perception is over there that whenever Yao is nearby, Dirk snaps his head back in front of refs to create the illusion that Yao is fouling him, and that no actual contact was made with Dirk's head and Yao's elbow.
In this particular case the Housten fans are at least half right. There was no contact whatsoever between Dirk's head and Yao's elbow. You could clearly see it on the slow-mo. The head snap was indeed an acting job by Dirk.

BUT what the fans fail to see is, the foul (I guess "semi-high elbow"?) was called milliseconds BEFORE Dirk acted it out. As much as I hate flopping, it wasn't the reason for the admittedly questionable call...

After watching the replay, I can agree with that assessment. Which leads to my next set of questions.

Does Dirk flop as much as opponents accuse him of flopping? As Mavs fans do we just overlook this behavior because its "our" guy? Are we more likely to buy into it? As long as it gets the other players into foul trouble and send Dirk to the charity stripe, do we care? Don't most great scorers find ways to put themselves at the foul line? Or is like when you really like your brother-in-law, but he's a raging alcoholic, but you really like him, so you just don't worry about that part?

Bookit
05-02-2005, 08:34 AM
This series is getting very intense. It is now a physical, emotional, and psycological war. i/expressions/anim_laugh.gif

Dooby
05-02-2005, 08:48 AM
Sure, Dirk flops. Everybody in the friggin NBA flops. Sura flopped in Game 3 on that stupid Howard foul at the end. Yao flops-that guy is 7-5 and weighs 280 with legs like tree trunks. Does anyone really think Jason Terry driving for a layup is going to knock him over?

If you want to talk about officiating, we can talk about Dampier's early foul trouble keeoping him off the court. Or the Mavs consistantly getting in the penalty with about 5-6 minutes to go in the quarter.

Every team in every sport whines about officiating and lobbies the refs. You see it in baseball and football, too. If they played hockey anymore, you would see it too.

DubOverdose
05-02-2005, 09:00 AM
Everyone knows Yao is foul prone, and is even given the benefit of the doubt many times. It is one of Yao's weakness, and if he wants to be great, he needs to stop fouling and play the game that everyone else has to play

jacktruth
05-02-2005, 09:05 AM
"That's crazy. It's also an insult to officials," Cuban said Sunday via e-mail. "They don't officiate individual players differently. Did [Van Gundy] notice that [Erick Dampier] has gotten two quick fouls in every game, and has been limited by foul trouble? Has he ever looked at Shawn Bradley's fouls per minute? They both seem to have the same type of fouls called on them."

Bradley had four fouls in 10 minutes in the first two games (Houston victories) of the series. In the Mavs' two victories, Dampier played 19 minutes in Game 3 and picked up five fouls, and fouled out of Game 4 after an 18-minute stint.

Yao has five fouls in each of the past two games and played an average of 29.5 minutes. He has been the usual partner for Tracy McGrady high screen-and-rolls.

Cuban sent a list to the NBA office of what the Mavs considered to be moving screens by Yao and Dikembe Mutombo from Game 1, which the Rockets won 98-86.

"We wanted clarification from the league if our assessment of what was going on was correct," Cuban said. "The league came back and told us of the 28 that we turned in from this game, nine were actually moving screens and should have been called but were not."

jacktruth
05-02-2005, 09:07 AM
dp

BradleySucks
05-02-2005, 09:25 AM
I can't believe you would talk about Gundy whining, when your owner whined his little ass off about the refs and yao. idiots!

DubOverdose
05-02-2005, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by: BradleySucks
I can't believe you would talk about Gundy whining, when your owner whined his little ass off about the refs and yao. idiots!

Was Cuban not correct? What about Van Gundy? The league has told Cuban that the refs were wrong in officiating Yao. So where is your argument? Where are Mavs fans wrong here? Please, tell. Otherwise, go home.

u2sarajevo
05-02-2005, 09:56 AM
I have some sound advice for Rocket fans.... If you continue to call Maverick fans names (like "idiots!"), you will lose posting privileges.

Let's be civil to each other. I understand you are upset about your team choking the last two games.... but don't take it out on us. Let the players settle it on the court.

In short, we welcome anyone to post here... however we have community standards (which can be read by clicking the FAQ (http://dallas-mavs.com/forums/faq.cfm) link at the top of the page). Given that you are a newer poster and a fan of the enemy, if you refuse to post by those standards it will be an easy decision to take action against your account.

So behave.

BradleySucks
05-02-2005, 10:28 AM
Actually the Mavs are my second favorite NBA team, but at the moment I cannot admit that i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif. We actually are (Houston and Dallas) are the two classiest NBA teams in the NBA. At least our fans, including yours except for the parents who destroyed their little boys heart, don't throw quarters and beers at players to instigate fights. Its a shame we had to meet eachother at this stage in the playoffs, and not have these two team contending in the Western Confrence Finals for the Championship. Spurs fans suck, Dallas and Houston are the best. I apologize for me blowing up in another thread about Dallas being classless, my bad. Just a little bitter, I know how you guys felt when we went up 2-0. Laters!

Simon2
05-02-2005, 10:52 AM
JVG is just a cry baby. Ever since I saw him playing ragdoll on Zo's leg, I have lost all respect for him. Yao has been doing so many moving screens if just ridiculous. That's part of the reason why the Mavs had a hard time guarding it. Kudos to Cuban for doing something about it.

chumdawg
05-02-2005, 11:11 AM
I'm just glad we finally found a way to defend that high pick-and-roll.

the amazing trace
05-02-2005, 11:15 AM
Surprisingly you guys are pretty even about this, I expected less. The more I visit this site, the more I hate the fact we are on the opposite ends of this thing, however, a nice loss tonight would please this Rocket's fan.


I think that this news by JVG does the thing that we may not need right now, put more pressure on Yao. It's unlikely that you guys will win three straight from us, as it was just as unlikely for us to do it to you, therefore I was satisfied with letting the chips fall as they may without this extra drama added to the series. I hate it when the TNT crew criticizes the Rocket's after a loss, call me a homer but it seems more personal and venomous, especially with Charles. If we win now, I'm sure there will be some no-calls that willl be referenced as the difference in the game, and if we lose, despite JVG's best efforts our team will be crushed to a greater degree because this drama.

This news isn't the greatest start for me today, but today I live for the night...i/expressions/clock.gif

Simon2
05-02-2005, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
I'm just glad we finally found a way to defend that high pick-and-roll.

Yes. Send a message to the league office. LOL!

sike
05-02-2005, 11:56 AM
would not be surprised at all to see a lot of calls go the Rockets way tonight....

DubOverdose
05-02-2005, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by: Simon2

Originally posted by: chumdawg
I'm just glad we finally found a way to defend that high pick-and-roll.

Yes. Send a message to the league office. LOL!

I hope the refs get the memo

Simon2
05-02-2005, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by: DubOverdose

Originally posted by: Simon2

Originally posted by: chumdawg
I'm just glad we finally found a way to defend that high pick-and-roll.

Yes. Send a message to the league office. LOL!

I hope the refs get the memo

Looks like they did because more moving screens are called.

LRB
05-02-2005, 12:11 PM
Van Gundy has been whining about the refs all series long. Even when the Rockets were winning, he was whining. The difference now is that he's desperate and has stepped his whining up a notch. But again that's his job.

mr_boo
05-02-2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by: DubOverdose
Everyone knows Yao is foul prone, and is even given the benefit of the doubt many times. It is one of Yao's weakness, and if he wants to be great, he needs to stop fouling and play the game that everyone else has to play

In a sense you're right but not completely. Yao is foul prone. All year long, we've watched him make stupid mistakes (ie sliding in and trying to draw a charge), and as a Rocket fan, believe me, I call him a lunkhead everytime he makes those stupid mistakes. But at the same time, I've seen him get mugged, hacked, slapped, pushed, elbowed all year long and nothing gets called at all. It's tough, he's one of the hardest guys to officiate.

In regards to JVG, I dont' know if you guys know this, but JVG has conistently gone through the right channels all year long to try to get the officials to see what's going on underneath, so this is not the first time that JVG has contacted the NBA about the officiating on Yao; but indeed it is probably one of the first times he's gone straight to the media this year...and frankly, to me, he's got a right to complain after game 4 on Yao's last two fouls.

In regards to Dirk's flop on the Yao's 4th foul. Yeah, it was a flop and yeah Dirk got away with it, but like kriD said, I think the whistle was blown before Dirk's head flew back; but that's not my point, because I really didn't see how Yao was fouling Dirk...he was just trying to get position. Flopping is everywhere. Let's face facts, every team has players that flop, just look at Utah. Flopping, sadly, is engrained as part of the game nowadays, and it so reminds of soccor ( big sigh ). But anyways, back to the foul, I didn't really see what Yao was doing was anymore illegal than normal play. Like, one previous poster said, let the players play.

The 5th foul was called badly by the refs. If you're going to blow the whistle on Yao's screens, do everyone a favor and call that foul in the beginning of the game. Throughout game 4 (and the whole series), Yao and Deke have always been setting those exact same screens, and if the refs are gonna call a foul on that, don't start doing it in the 4th quarter...set the tone of the game and let the players know what kinda game is gonna be called.

Bottom line: In game 4, the refs did a piss poor job on calling fouls on BOTH teams. The Rockets got the benefits of some fouls and so did the Mavs. I think we can all agree, that as fans, all we want for both our teams is fair officiating. If Yao makes a bonehead play, I will always call him out on an idiot play, but when he get's taken out of the game by the refs like he did in game 4, there's nothing that we fans or JVG can do but complain about the refs. BTW, I detest make up calls as much as anyone else.

Phil Helmuth
05-02-2005, 01:16 PM
Why has someone with the username "Bradleysucks" not been banned yet? That name is insulting and we shouldn't tolerate it.

grndmstr_c
05-02-2005, 01:27 PM
FWIW, I liked Cuban's response (someone posted an article with quotes on the previous page). Very well formulated.

Simon2
05-02-2005, 01:41 PM
Why don't the Mavs bust out the whiny baby video on the big screen tonight? Just like they did for the Jazz series with Malone. I'll send that to Cuban as a suggestion.

chumdawg
05-02-2005, 01:46 PM
Let's not forget the phantom foul Padgett picked up when the foul clearly belonged to Yao. I don't remember exactly when it happened, but I know that Yao was in foul trouble at the time, and if the foul had gone to the right person Yao would have been forced to the bench.

Let's also not forget the three or four times this series that Dirk had taken it to the rack and been absolutely hammered. In the regular season, those are fouls about 9.5 times out of 10.

But if the moaning serves to give his team sort of excuse for their being outplayed the last couple games, kudos to JVG. Doubt it will help in the end, though.

Bookit
05-02-2005, 01:58 PM
The Rockets are taking the road of the 2000 Mavericks. They bitched and moaned about every foul. I am glad the Mavs don't go there anymore.

BTW, there were some bs calls that went against the Mavs late in the game. The call against Dirk when he jumped out on McGrady and barely touched him was BS. Also, Dirk was absolutley mugged under the hoop late in the game and Damp just happened to be there to clean things up.

Bottom line is Houston just missed all their shots late in the game. Also, Yao fumbled away the ball out of bounds late and McGrady lost the ball out of bounds when Josh poked the ball free. Let the Houston fans and Coaches cry all they want. They won't win until they just shut up and play.

BradleySucks
05-02-2005, 02:02 PM
How do you know I am not talking about Michael Bradley, or Bradley Wayne Dixon??

EricaLubarsky
05-02-2005, 02:07 PM
what a troll.

birdsanctuary
05-02-2005, 03:09 PM
Probably stated somewhere, but this might work against him, and lead to fewer calls on a more physical Mavs team.

Windmill360
05-02-2005, 03:46 PM
Haha Van GUmby gets fined $100,000 by NBA for his comments.

dalmations202
05-02-2005, 04:05 PM
another Mill or Mill and half and he'll catch Mark.

DubOverdose
05-02-2005, 04:11 PM
Jeff Van Gundy Fined $100,000 For Comments On Referees
2nd May, 2005 - 4:47 pm
Press Release - Houston Rockets head coach Jeff Van Gundy has been fined $100,000 for his public comments concerning NBA officiating, it was announced today by Stu Jackson, NBA Senior Vice President Basketball Operations.

Van Gundy's comments were made to the media on Sunday, May 1.

"When you review his fouls, you look there and you got to give Mark Cuban credit," Van Gundy said after the Rockets had a meeting at their hotel. "He's been calling and calling about Yao. You got to give the guy credit, he's taken a lot of fines in his time, and he's been on them hard. And he's gotten the benefit."

Van Gundy also said: "I think Yao all year has had a target on his back, for whatever reason, whether it's his size, his kindness, whatever, there's many other things it could be, too."

"You look at foul calls he gets, they are not appropriate," he added, "when you consider the fouls" that were not called on the Mavericks. [READ]

kingrex
05-02-2005, 04:12 PM
Very good points Mr_Boo.

Things we agree on:
1) A foul in the first quarter should be a foul in the fourth.
2) Anyone taller than 7'4" (specifically Yao & Bradley) almost never get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to blocking v. charging calls.
3) Flopping is part of the NBA game, and it sucks anytime it is rewarded.

Things we DON'T agree on:
1) Let's be honest, JVG complaining about calls through the media is nothing but gamesmanship. Game 4 was NOT the straw that broke the camel's back, rather Game 5 is so crucial a game, that any edge you can get as a coach is a good edge.
2) Like JVG, Cuban is going through proper channels by sending a tape into the league office. I don't like it either when he does it through the media, but sending a tape in is within his rights as an NBA owner.

NOTE to my fellow Mavs fans: Please don't reflect the antics of so-called "trolls", instead just ignore the posts that you deem NOT worth a read and move on.

No need to add more censorship than necessary to the best fan forum on the net. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

HexNBA
05-02-2005, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by: Windmill360°
Haha Van GUmby gets fined $100,000 by NBA for his comments. - story on espn (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2005/news/story?id=2051807)

DubOverdose
05-02-2005, 04:21 PM
A look at the stats, by me
Game 1- Rockets win despite fewer FTs
Mavs FTA: 42
Rox FTA: 20

Game 2- Rockets win, have slight FTA advantage
Mavs FTA: 26
Rox FTA: 27

Game 3- Mavs win, 12 more FTAs
Mavs FTA: 37
Rox FTA: 25

Game 4- Mavs win, have slight FTA advantage
Mavs FTA: 27
Rockets FTA: 26

So what are Rockets fans complaining about here. Let's dig deeper. In game 1, the Mavs were far behind. In the 4th quarter, the Mavs relentlesly drove to the basket, and got fouled repetitively. The Mavs still lost. That is 22FTA's of the 34FTA difference. Game 3 the Mavs also had an advantage in FTAs. If you look at the box score, you will see the Rockets shot more outside shots than the Mavericks did. The Rockets shot 25 3's as opposed to the Mavericks 17 3's. This obviously doesn't tell the whole story, but usually is a good indicator of what type of shots the Rockets were taking. When you look at the personal fouls committed in game 3 you will see that the majority of fouls that the Rockets had were from their big men, thus an indicator that the Mavs were driving to the basket more, thus increasing their liklihood of being fouled. Let us not forget that Erick Dampier has been one of the most foul prone players in this series. He has suffered from as many, if not more, cheap fouls than anyone. So, please Rockets fans, stop complaining and dig deeper. The officiating has been as fair as you can get for a playoff series.

mr_boo
05-02-2005, 04:22 PM
"That's crazy. It's also an insult to officials," Cuban said Sunday via e-mail. "They don't officiate individual players differently. Did [Van Gundy] notice that [Erick Dampier] has gotten two quick fouls in every game, and has been limited by foul trouble? Has he ever looked at Shawn Bradley's fouls per minute?
They both seem to have the same type of fouls called on them."

Cuban's statement that they don't officiate individual players differently has got to be one of the most BS statements ever made. We all know that superstar players (T-Mac and Dirk) always get that slight edge. Additionally, replace Dampier or Bradley with Dirk (a centerpiece of the team) in there and I'm willing to bet that Cuban would be up in arms with blogs and press release statements calling out how unfair the officials are. And come on, let's just say this...if Yao wasn't in foul trouble in game 3 or 4 and the Mavs lost with Yao having one of those 20+ point nights, you think that Cuban wouldn't be pissed off at the refs' calls against Dampier, the Mavs' best defender against Yao? Cuban will say the right things when the Mavs are winning, but if the Mavs are losing, his true colors come out. You guys can knock JVG all you want, but at least he's been consistent with his unhappiness with the refs.

HexNBA
05-02-2005, 04:28 PM
but at least he's been consistent with his unhappiness with the refs.

no he hasnt. after game 3 he said it was the rockets fault they were getting all the fouls called against them, they had to play smarter, the mavs did a good job, etc, etc. but after another loss its suddenly the ref's fault.

DubOverdose
05-02-2005, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by: HexNBA

but at least he's been consistent with his unhappiness with the refs.

no he hasnt. after game 3 he said it was the rockets fault they were getting all the fouls called against them, they had to play smarter, the mavs did a good job, etc, etc. but after another loss its suddenly the ref's fault.

And the calls were about even in game 4 too.

mr_boo
05-02-2005, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by: kingrex
Very good points Mr_Boo.

Things we agree on:
1) A foul in the first quarter should be a foul in the fourth.
2) Anyone taller than 7'4" (specifically Yao & Bradley) almost never get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to blocking v. charging calls.
3) Flopping is part of the NBA game, and it sucks anytime it is rewarded.

Things we DON'T agree on:
1) Let's be honest, JVG complaining about calls through the media is nothing but gamesmanship. Game 4 was NOT the straw that broke the camel's back, rather Game 5 is so crucial a game, that any edge you can get as a coach is a good edge.
2) Like JVG, Cuban is going through proper channels by sending a tape into the league office. I don't like it either when he does it through the media, but sending a tape in is within his rights as an NBA owner.

NOTE to my fellow Mavs fans: Please don't reflect the antics of so-called "trolls", instead just ignore the posts that you deem NOT worth a read and move on.

No need to add more censorship than necessary to the best fan forum on the net. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

Hey kingrex,
I never really thought about it that way in regards to your JVG gamesmanship viewpoint. I can't argue with you there, cause you make a good point...also, in regards to your second point, I don't knock at all what Cuban did cause he went through all the proper channels, right? It's the refs that I knock; I just don't like the way the game was called. And like Bookit said, we had our chances and blew it...Yao fumbled that pass and turned the ball over and McGrady lost the ball on that great play by Howard. You guys have a real pro-active owner who's at every game (as far as I know) and who is willing to grab whatever pieces he can to make a championship, that's cool and all. Although, I might disagree with what he says time to time (see previous post). i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

I don't hate the Mavs...in fact Don Nelson is one of my favorite coaches (I'm orignally from the Bay Area); and I one of those weird dudes who thinks owners like Cuban and Steinbrenner are interesting and good for the league.

mr_boo
05-02-2005, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by: DubOverdose

Originally posted by: HexNBA

but at least he's been consistent with his unhappiness with the refs.

no he hasnt. after game 3 he said it was the rockets fault they were getting all the fouls called against them, they had to play smarter, the mavs did a good job, etc, etc. but after another loss its suddenly the ref's fault.

And the calls were about even in game 4 too.

You're getting my points wrong...for me game 4 was not a good officiated game for BOTH sides. I'm not about evenness, it's about the quality of the calls. The Rockets will be more foul prone due to mismatches (Dirk) and our aggressive style of defense, but I firmly think that the refs were awful on both sides.

kingrex
05-02-2005, 04:43 PM
"IT'S THE REFS FAULT" is the losers lament.

Mavs fans should know because that's all we heard from Nellie and Cuban during the 2000 run.

orangedays
05-02-2005, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by: G-Man
What makes Van Gundy's whine particularly noxious is the fact that his center only plays well when Dampier is sitting with fouls. So he plants this crap to try to get Yao even more Damp free minutes.

I say stop calling fouls on both centers and just let 'em go at it mano a mano. You wouldn't hear whining, you'd hear that 7'6 guy <EM>Yao-ling</EM> like a baby.

Isn't Damp typically sitting with fouls because of Yao? Chicken and the egg mate...granted that Yao probably plays better when Damp is on the bench, but that's because he had a large role in putting him there.

mr_boo
05-02-2005, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by: HexNBA

but at least he's been consistent with his unhappiness with the refs.

no he hasnt. after game 3 he said it was the rockets fault they were getting all the fouls called against them, they had to play smarter, the mavs did a good job, etc, etc. but after another loss its suddenly the ref's fault.

IIRC, after game 1 he made a press statement where he made a referee dig on the descrepency in Free Throws, and that's after our game 2 win, not loss. Win or lose, and if he's gonna make comment, JVG is going to call the game out as he sees it. But that's besides the point, cause, like kingRex said, this might be JVG's guile way of trying to set tables for game 5 and 6.

orangedays
05-02-2005, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
Let's not forget the phantom foul Padgett picked up when the foul clearly belonged to Yao. I don't remember exactly when it happened, but I know that Yao was in foul trouble at the time, and if the foul had gone to the right person Yao would have been forced to the bench.

Let's also not forget the three or four times this series that Dirk had taken it to the rack and been absolutely hammered. In the regular season, those are fouls about 9.5 times out of 10.

But if the moaning serves to give his team sort of excuse for their being outplayed the last couple games, kudos to JVG. Doubt it will help in the end, though.

Haha, yeah I love those phantom fouls. You see some guy drive the lane, get absolutely bamboozled by the center (Yao, Damp, etc.) and then some guard 10 feet away from the play raises his hand. 4 minutes later you hear the announcers go "oh it appears that the foul was changed to (insert non-foul prone player's name here)."

What crap...but officials have a hard job. It just sucks when it messes up the flow of the game.

DubOverdose
05-02-2005, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by: mr_boo

Originally posted by: DubOverdose

Originally posted by: HexNBA

but at least he's been consistent with his unhappiness with the refs.

no he hasnt. after game 3 he said it was the rockets fault they were getting all the fouls called against them, they had to play smarter, the mavs did a good job, etc, etc. but after another loss its suddenly the ref's fault.

And the calls were about even in game 4 too.

You're getting my points wrong...for me game 4 was not a good officiated game for BOTH sides. I'm not about evenness, it's about the quality of the calls. The Rockets will be more foul prone due to mismatches (Dirk) and our aggressive style of defense, but I firmly think that the refs were awful on both sides.
I was commenting on how VanGundy complained after game 4, not the fairness of the calls in game 4.

u2sarajevo
05-02-2005, 05:40 PM
I stole this from another board (a Rockets one), but it is interesting:


GAME 1 Rockets shot 20 free throws, mavs shot 42, despite being called for only 7 fewer fouls. Rockets win

GAME 2 Rockets take 27 free throws, mavs take 26 and get called for 2 fewer fouls. Rockets win

GAME 3 Rockets take 37 free throws, mavs take 25. But despite the free throw attempts, the mavs were called for more fouls (1). Complain all you want, but the mavs were whistled more often. MAVS WIN

GAME 4 Rockets take 26 free throws, Mavs take 27 and get called for six fewer fouls. Mavs win.

HexNBA
05-02-2005, 10:14 PM
wow:

Commissioner David Stern, who coincidentally attended this game, called the largest fine ever levied against an NBA coach only "an intermediary step" and said an investigation will continue _ once the Rockets finish their playoff run. Stern even implied that Van Gundy could face a lifetime ban.

rakesh.s
05-02-2005, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by: HexNBA
wow:

Commissioner David Stern, who coincidentally attended this game, called the largest fine ever levied against an NBA coach only "an intermediary step" and said an investigation will continue _ once the Rockets finish their playoff run. Stern even implied that Van Gundy could face a lifetime ban.

Stern is being..well stern.

Why would you EVER open your mouth about having an "insider"? Just sheer stupidity on van gundy's part..he's got to be smarter than that.

He should've said, "Well it seems to me like they're trying to zero in on Yao..and that's unfair", not "I spoke to an official that isn't in the playoffs right now and he told me.."

What was he thinking?

EricaLubarsky
05-02-2005, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by: HexNBA
wow:

Commissioner David Stern, who coincidentally attended this game, called the largest fine ever levied against an NBA coach only "an intermediary step" and said an investigation will continue _ once the Rockets finish their playoff run. Stern even implied that Van Gundy could face a lifetime ban.

maybe that is why JVG is so teary eyed all the time.

MavKikiNYC
05-02-2005, 10:21 PM
Uhm....if this official isn't working the playoffs, doesn't that mean he (or she) isn't very good?

Starting to wonder if this official isn't vacationing in one of the countries whose leaders told John Kerry they wanted him to win.

Van Gundy Has Run Afoul of the League
By LIZ ROBBINS

Published: May 3, 2005

DALLAS, May 2 - Rockets Coach Jeff Van Gundy on Monday was fined $100,000 by the N.B.A. - the largest fine levied against a league coach - for comments he made Sunday, claiming that referees were directed by the league to target his center Yao Ming and refusing to reveal to N.B.A. investigators the person who told him that information.

"You know what? I said what I said, and when you say that, you open yourself up to criticism and discipline, so you live with it," Van Gundy said before Game 5 against the Dallas Mavericks. Van Gundy seemed almost light-hearted about the fine, but the league is taking it far more seriously.

Commissioner David Stern, who was in Dallas on Monday night on a prearranged visit, indicated that the Van Gundy issue did not end with the fine and that an investigation would continue after Houston's season ended.

"That questioned in a very strong way the integrity of our officials and league office," Stern said. "He claims to have some special information. In fact, he didn't have that information.

"He wasn't particularly forthcoming and cooperative with the investigation. And as a result, he got the largest fine of this type that we've issued.


"This is the first time where an allegation has been made and the perpetrator has not cooperated with the investigation."

In explaining why the fine was double the previous high levied against Pat Riley and Phil Jackson, Stern added: "This one set a new low."

When asked if Van Gundy faced further disciplinary action, Stern said he wanted to keep all "options open."

Van Gundy told The New York Times, The Houston Chronicle and KRIV, a Houston television station, on Sunday that the Mavericks owner Mark Cuban had complained to the league about fouls that were not called on Yao.

Van Gundy said he believed that Cuban had "worked" the league's officials and said that fact was corroborated, according to Van Gundy, by a friend, a league referee who was not working the playoffs, who called him.

Van Gundy would not tell the league who the referee was, thus violating a league by-law that requires league personnel to cooperate in investigations. "I guess I violated some article 24, I'm not sure what that is, about not giving up my sources," Van Gundy said. "It's not like Watergate or something.

"It's better than what they were saying; it could have been some lady named Judith Miller-type suspension or something," Van Gundy said, referring to the reporter for The New York Times who has refused to reveal her source to a grand jury investigating the disclosure of the name of a C.I.A. officer.

Miller's case is to be appealed to the Supreme Court.

Van Gundy said he could not reveal his source because "the guy was trying to help." When told that Miller could face jail time, Van Gundy howled and said he would not go that far. "I ain't that strong," he said. "My guy would have to be on his own, cut him loose."

This was the largest fine levied on a coach, surpassing the $50,000 fines Riley, the former Miami coach, received in 2002 for accusing the referee Steve Javie of being biased against the Heat and the $50,000 that the former Lakers coach Phil Jackson received in March 2004. Jackson had called Bob Delaney prejudiced against Shaquille O'Neal.

Cuban has been fined more than $1 million by the league since he bought the team in January 2000, the largest fine being $500,000.

"I believe what I believe," Van Gundy. "I've seen what I've seen. If they think it's appropriate that I be fined the largest in history, then if that's the worst thing that's happened from a coaching perspective, so be it."

Van Gundy said he heard about the fine from his brother, Stan, the Heat coach, who called him Monday afternoon. "I thought he was joking," Van Gundy said.

"And please don't write if we win, that it inspired us," he added. "Those players could care less where my money goes, and they just want to win."

But Yao said he did care about his coach's loyalty. He offered to pay half of the fine. "I feel the need to do that," said Yao, who fouled out of Game 1 and had five fouls each in Games 3 and 4, Rockets losses.

He had a total of 20 fouls in the first four games.

"That's a coach saying what he has to say," Rockets center Dikembe Mutombo said. "From a player standpoint, you got to make sure you stay away from this mess. The coaches are not playing. The players are the ones who have to deal with the officials every second of the game."

capitalcity
05-02-2005, 10:54 PM
How much Rogaine can you buy with 100,000?

MavKikiNYC
05-02-2005, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by: capitalcity
How much Rogaine can you buy with 100,000?

Not enough to make a difference for JVG.

GP
05-03-2005, 03:22 AM
I've thought for years that the league was closer to the WWF than a real sport. This really makes me think that Stern is trying to cover his tracks. Watching this series I thought that the Mavs got a lot more calls in their favor. In the past it definitely wasn't this way. Stern should have just called Van Gundy out as a lying sack of garbage and fined him 5 or 10 grand and laughed it off. This lifetime ban thing really makes one wonder and will make others wonder as well.

As for the officiating being any different in the other series I haven't seen it. In fact, this series has been officiated better in my opinion. In the NJ series Shaq elbowed a Net to the Jaw knocking him on the ground. The net did not have his hands on Shaq or his body touching him. Who got called for the foul. The New Jersey Net.

As for Cuban, well we all know the saying: The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I think its true. I don't think Cuban should have said what he did because frankly he did nothing wrong. If his complaining has helped the Mavs one iota he should not apologize because that was his agenda. What troubles me is that he claims its an effort to fix officiating and make it fair while what he really wants is for it to benefit him and the Mavs.

GP
05-03-2005, 03:22 AM
Weird: Double post.

Go Mavs. You done good.

BigBenito
05-03-2005, 03:53 AM
yeah... officiating has been real fair this series. i/expressions/anim_roller.gif


mmm... let me change that... not a matter of 'fair'... just a matter of some of the worst officiating ALL series long.

I realize the whistles go both ways, but come on... Finley swiping the ball from a foot out of bounds... u gotta be kidding me!

Thespiralgoeson
05-03-2005, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by: BigBenito
yeah... officiating has been real fair this series. i/expressions/anim_roller.gif


mmm... let me change that... not a matter of 'fair'... just a matter of some of the worst officiating ALL series long.

I realize the whistles go both ways, but come on... Finley swiping the ball from a foot out of bounds... u gotta be kidding me!

Jesus H Christ, and I thought the Kings and the old Mavs were whiny. I have never seen such bitching and moaning about the officiating. Yes, that was a bad call. I don't think that was any worse than Dirk going for a layup and being absolutely clobbered by Yao, who was also clearly in the restricted zone to boot, and not getting a call. I also don't think that was any worse than McGrady taking a shot after receiving no contact with the defender, and the ref calls a foul seconds later only after the shot spills out. Yet I never heared Jerry Stackhouse or Alan Henderson, or AVERY JOHNSON complaining about the refs. Yet I do hear Jon Barry and Jeff Van Gundy complaining.

FreshJive
05-03-2005, 04:59 AM
Spiral, Avery did complain about the Refs and got fined for it after game one or two. "You swallowed your damn whistle all game" or somesuch. Everybody complains about the refs. They do suck.

Thespiralgoeson
05-03-2005, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by: FreshJive
Spiral, Avery did complain about the Refs and got fined for it after game one or two. "You swallowed your damn whistle all game" or somesuch. Everybody complains about the refs. They do suck.

I didn't hear about that one, so ok, I'll take that one back. Still, Avery making a comment about the refs "swallowing their whistle" is hardly the equivalent of JVG suggesting that there's some massive conspiracy against Yao with Marc Cuban and the league office behind the curtain.

FreshJive
05-03-2005, 06:11 AM
No doubt. Not trying to defend JVG's conspiracy talk.

kingrex
05-03-2005, 08:12 AM
JVG has to know that you can't imply a conspiracy in the NBA, without hearing from David Stern.

THE NBA IS NOT FIXED.

For that to be the case, then that means every official and every player has to somehow be in on it. That would also mean coaches like JVG have to be in on it.

Bottomline, if you really think it's fixed, then don't watch it. That's why I never watch pro-wrestling. Please give up this ridiculous delusion.

capitalcity
05-03-2005, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by: kingrex
...THE NBA IS NOT FIXED...
Bottomline, if you really think it's fixed, then don't watch it. That's why I never watch pro-wrestling. Please give up this ridiculous delusion. I don't think Fixed is the right word. The best description is BROKEN. The lack of oversight, or at least the lack of public reprimand of officials, has led us to this point. One things for sure... with the advancement in technology, where everybody watching on TV gets 2,3,4 or more looks/angles at a play/potential call, the league hasn't updated its officiating.

I don't have all the answers, but I do think Stern is covering his ass. OBVIOUSLY the NBA has done more to maintain the status quo than it has to improve the situation. And that's bullshit and akin to a coverup.

Instant replay for every call? - no you simply can't slow the game down that much. But perhaps 1)just in the last two minutes of the game, or 2) have automatic reviews from the "booth upstairs" when there is a blatant mistake. 3)What about the questec (sp?) umpire watching system transfered over to NBA refs? 4) Start over: Fire ALL the refs and train new ones? In a way you squash the "old boys club" persona of "this guy just call a game tight or loose,"... a team should never have to adjust the style of play to suit a particular ref, or group of refs. Right?

Point is: Just like Social Security - you have to address the problem NOW, there's no use putting it off just becuase no clear solution is presenting itself. Any change is good at this juncture because it will encourage people to start thinking about how to best officiate the game. And in the end that should be everybody's goal.

Simon2
05-03-2005, 09:07 AM
NBA is just too fast of a game. Maybe the NBA should think of adding another ref or having one up in the booth. There were bad calls on both sides. Mavs have been at the short end of the stick many times.

dude1394
05-03-2005, 10:45 AM
I disagree with all of this crap I'm hearing about referees from both teams. Sure they still miss calls, but imo they've been doing a better and better job in the last few years, cubes is probably the reason. They call palming, traveling, certainly many more charging calls are called now than before, hand-checking is called even on the smallest of infractions and no matter what point of the game it is.

Van Gundy thought he would be cute and get some refs on his side a little bit, but yao has been fouling people just like dampier has been fouling people. Crap the mavs drive to the basket like maniacs, unless he's going to sit there and watch it he's going to get some fouls.

And he DOES set moving picks and should be called on it.

I'm also not seeing a bunch of idiotic star treatment either, dirk isn't getting star treatment and neither is mcgrady OR yao OR shaq for that matter...

The refs also are much more prone to confer and get the right call on out of bounds and possession plays. It happens all over the league..

If the NFL had every play in the trenches up on the jumbotron, the fans would be whining just like they are now at how many calls were missed.

BigBenito
05-03-2005, 11:24 AM
kettle, meet the color black.

ok, apologies for apparently sounding, like... what was it a whiney something?

it was 3ish in the morning. yeah, ok, i'll confess it was most likely posted in frustration (writing a term paper, so likely whiney) but seriously... the officiating in this series has been god awful! (and yes, it goes both ways)

but complaining about dirk NOT GETTING A CALL!?!? lol... ok, u win the prize

bring on game 6!

p.s. i for one wouldn't mind jvg being banned... that way i could wave my 'omg, the nba hates us' card for a decade. it isn't going to happen; stern is just waving his **** in he air. (what did u guys give him to drink?)

LRB
05-03-2005, 12:47 PM
http://espn.go.com/i/page2/quickie/050503_quickie.jpg

kingrex
05-03-2005, 12:50 PM
LRB comes through yet again. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

mary
05-03-2005, 05:02 PM
Paypal Scam waiting to happen? (http://www.100k4vangundy.com/)

kriD
05-04-2005, 06:44 AM
Cries of conspiracy are way off the mark

By Gil LeBreton
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

So, Jeff Van Gundy knows a guy who talked to a guy who heard from a guy that the refs need to be more careful about the way they're officiating the Mavericks-Rockets series.

Apparently, $100,000 doesn't buy the kind of "inside information" it used to.

Of course the referees are watching Houston's Yao Ming. He's usually standing right in the way to the basket.

We feel Van Gundy's pain. It's not as much fun watching an NBA playoff series in which some of the best players -- Yao, Erick Dampier, Dirk Nowitzki and Josh Howard, to name are having to dodge nightly foul trouble.

Implicit in Van Gundy's remarks, however, were the notions that (1) the NBA is calling the game closer at the behest of Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, and (2) the Rockets are getting the worst of it.

The first notion is laughable, unfortunately. Cuban may see the game through Mavs-tinted glasses, but he has a track record of documenting his complaints.

In fact, I have this vision of NBA headquarters, where there's probably a room at the end of some long hallway, and it's filled with stacks and stacks of unopened envelopes and tapes. The handmade sign on the door undoubtedly reads, "Complaints from Cuban."

The second Van Gundy insinuation is just as hard to make a legitimate case over. If the Rockets seem to be getting whistled for more fouls than the Mavericks, it's because the Mavericks are taking their game inside more often. Fouls there naturally tend to be more plentiful than the perimeter, where Houston has preferred to set up shop.

Coaches are coaches. In their own ways, they all try to work the refs. Some are constant screamers. One idiot in a sweater -- his name escapes me -- even once threw a chair.

I covered a game one season in which the coach was thrown out without speaking a word. Steve Newton, the gentlemanly coach, quietly waited until a timeout, took out his handkerchief, folded it into the classic bandit's bandana and held it to his face. He then pointed his index finger at the accused referee.

The ref erupted, blowing his whistle like a traffic cop and waving his arms as if his elbow hairs had caught fire. Newton got a technical and an early trip back to the locker room.

Van Gundy, however, crossed the line. The fine was excessive. It's not the first time that NBA commissioner Donald Stern has let his morning coffee determine the amount of a fine (see CUBAN, above).

But players, coaches and owners have to be careful when questioning the integrity of the league's daily business, which includes the ethics of its referees. Van Gundy had claimed that his information came from an NBA official who isn't working during the playoffs. When Stern asked for a name, Van Gundy refused, and thus the commissioner invoked Article 24 of the NBA by-laws -- refusing to cooperate with a league investigation, or something.

Stern apparently also placed Van Gundy on Double Secret Probation and ordered Neidermeyer and the Omegas to place him under rest-of-playoffs surveillance.

As fate would have it, the huge fine dampened Van Gundy's and the Rockets' reactions to the most critical non-call of Monday night's game. With 58.5 seconds left, the Mavericks' Michael Finley was out of bounds when he spanked the ball away from Houston's Jon Barry.

Wonder what Van Gundy's friend will tell him about that one?

There has been inconsistent officiating, however, throughout this first-round series. Yao's high screens -- and broad hips -- have invited scrutiny, and I confess that I no longer have any idea what defines a legal NBA pick.

The refs even missed the call on Tracy McGrady's shot at the buzzer Monday night. One official signaled a 3-point attempt, but McGrady himself confessed that his foot was on the line.

Cuban said Tuesday that he understands the Rockets' frustrations about the fouls being called on Yao under the basket.

"Yao is going through the same thing that Shawn Bradley goes through," Cuban wrote in an e-mail. "He's big. He is a target. Guys love to go at the 7-foot-6 guy. He spends all his time defensively right in front of the one spot every player is trying to get to."

Officials are having to gauge angles and arm lengths, plus the driving player's flight pattern. It's the bane of the NBA big man.

That doesn't make it a league-wide conspiracy, though.

Next time that Van Gundy has a complaint about the officiating, let me suggest that he fold a bandana.

Just211
05-04-2005, 10:22 AM
I find it funny that Rockets fans, and mainly the media are pointing to the fin out of bounds play, and the fin phantom foul. BUT no one has mentioned that the refs handed the Rockets 4 free free throws at the end of the game as well. One was when Yao funbled the ball and Dirk slapped the ball, and it hit Yao in the face. No contact by anyone, Foul was called on JHO, 2 FTs to Yao
The other was when WEsly broke free, and Jet had a obviously clean block, but no official was in postion. Foul on Jet. 2 FTs.
So the refs have been a little incosistant both ways, but I don't think they are favoring anyone.

And the obvius point of the series is that the refs suck, WHEN YOU LOSE. It is always that way, and a team has to learn to overlook it.

u2sarajevo
05-04-2005, 10:27 AM
I still don't get how the phantom foul called against Finley when he was protecting the ball with 18.x seconds left was anti-Rocket? What good could have come out of that for Houston if more time was ticked off the clock?

I don't get it......????

mary
05-04-2005, 10:31 AM
I thought the Rockets weren't fouling because they were trying to trap and either strip the ball, hope Finley would force a bad pass to run clock, poke it off of him out of bounds, or tie him up and force a jump ball.

None of those things were possible once the phantom foul was called.

dalmations202
05-04-2005, 10:35 AM
I still don't get how the phantom foul called against Finley when he was protecting the ball with 18.x seconds left was anti-Rocket? What good could have come out of that for Houston if more time was ticked off the clock?

I don't get it......????

Theory is that Fin throws the ball away to the defense in less than the 5 sec he has to get rid of it. Then they score w/o a defense quickly and are only down 1 with about 10 sec left. Realism of it is that with no foul about 5 sec run off the clock making 13 sec left, Fin calls a timeout, and they advance the ball.

The phantom call only hurts you if the veteran makes a mistake. It helped them keep the time on the clock, if he didn't make that mistake. So it just as well could have been the decision that saved them instead of hurting them (if they would have won).

Mavs_fun_fan
05-04-2005, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by: Just211
I find it funny that Rockets fans, and mainly the media are pointing to the fin out of bounds play, and the fin phantom foul. BUT no one has mentioned that the refs handed the Rockets 4 free free throws at the end of the game as well. One was when Yao funbled the ball and Dirk slapped the ball, and it hit Yao in the face. No contact by anyone, Foul was called on JHO, 2 FTs to Yao
The other was when WEsly broke free, and Jet had a obviously clean block, but no official was in postion. Foul on Jet. 2 FTs.
So the refs have been a little incosistant both ways, but I don't think they are favoring anyone.

And the obvius point of the series is that the refs suck, WHEN YOU LOSE. It is always that way, and a team has to learn to overlook it.

It was because of the excellent faked flops by Yao and Wesley..........LOL!!!!!!!!

It is obvious to anyone who is really honest about the ending of game 5 that numerous calls were bad, but they went both ways and in the end the Mavs made the plays to win and the Rockets choked.

kingrex
05-04-2005, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by: Mavs_fun_fan


And the obvius point of the series is that the refs suck, WHEN YOU LOSE. It is always that way, and a team has to learn to overlook it.

It was because of the excellent faked flops by Yao and Wesley..........LOL!!!!!!!!

It is obvious to anyone who is really honest about the ending of game 5 that numerous calls were bad, but they went both ways and in the end the Mavs made the plays to win and the Rockets choked.[/quote]

They choked at the free throw line, but scoring 32 points int he 4th quarter is hardly a choke job.

razap
05-04-2005, 11:01 AM
As a fan of the NBA I can agree with inconsistent officiating however I tire of Cuban's antics. Essentially Cuban is a fan with a platform to complain. I would compare it to one of us being able to personally call a meeting with Stern and complaining about the officiating. If Cuban starts to affect games I have a problem with it. Just because he has the platform to get Stern's ear does not allow him to essentially have certain players looked at for their habits. Dirk flops quite a bit and Cuban seems to be ok with him getting phantom calls..

Mavs_fun_fan
05-04-2005, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by: razap
As a fan of the NBA I can agree with inconsistent officiating however I tire of Cuban's antics. Essentially Cuban is a fan with a platform to complain. I would compare it to one of us being able to personally call a meeting with Stern and complaining about the officiating. If Cuban starts to affect games I have a problem with it. Just because he has the platform to get Stern's ear does not allow him to essentially have certain players looked at for their habits. Dirk flops quite a bit and Cuban seems to be ok with him getting phantom calls..

I see and I'll bet your OK with Duncan using his off hand to push-off, something only him and a few others get away with like Tmac. I've watched Duncan for years and even when he's on defense when the other player goes to take his shot TD will put his hand on the other players chest and its never called. While both Tmac and TD will push-off to get room for their jumpshots.

While I disagree totally with the "Star system" of officiating I can at least understand it during the regular season, but during the playoffs the field should be level. Every team and player in the playoffs has worked his ass off to be there and the games should be called straight up, but there not the "Stars" still get the calls and that alone is the reason for all the complaints. It is also the reason thousands of potential fans will never become NBA fans. I've been on plenty of other forums , from other sport forums to political forums and when ever the NBA comes up many people say they would never watch basketball because its like wrestling.

LRB
05-04-2005, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by: kingrex

Originally posted by: Mavs_fun_fan


And the obvius point of the series is that the refs suck, WHEN YOU LOSE. It is always that way, and a team has to learn to overlook it.

It was because of the excellent faked flops by Yao and Wesley..........LOL!!!!!!!!

It is obvious to anyone who is really honest about the ending of game 5 that numerous calls were bad, but they went both ways and in the end the Mavs made the plays to win and the Rockets choked.

They choked at the free throw line, but scoring 32 points int he 4th quarter is hardly a choke job.[/quote]


It's a choke if you need 35 points to keep from losing and you miss more than enough FT's to make up the difference.

mary
05-04-2005, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by: razap
As a fan of the NBA I can agree with inconsistent officiating however I tire of Cuban's antics. Essentially Cuban is a fan with a platform to complain. I would compare it to one of us being able to personally call a meeting with Stern and complaining about the officiating. If Cuban starts to affect games I have a problem with it. Just because he has the platform to get Stern's ear does not allow him to essentially have certain players looked at for their habits. Dirk flops quite a bit and Cuban seems to be ok with him getting phantom calls..

RAZAP, every single owner has a platform to complain about officiating - and they all do. They all make phone calls, they all send in tapes, period.

The 0.4 second debacle wasn't really all that long ago, was it?

Were you upset then about Pop's "antics"???

Rockets34Life
05-04-2005, 11:32 AM
Brought to you by the Rockets:

http://tinypic.com/4uhnx2

LRB
05-04-2005, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by: razap
As a fan of the NBA I can agree with inconsistent officiating however I tire of Cuban's antics. Essentially Cuban is a fan with a platform to complain. I would compare it to one of us being able to personally call a meeting with Stern and complaining about the officiating. If Cuban starts to affect games I have a problem with it. Just because he has the platform to get Stern's ear does not allow him to essentially have certain players looked at for their habits. Dirk flops quite a bit and Cuban seems to be ok with him getting phantom calls..

Sorry but this statement is total BS IMO. Cuban has no more of a platform than any other NBA owner. Sure he might have more than you or I, but he paid a hell of a lot of money to get what any other NBA owner already had. All NBA teams have the ability to complain and send tape in just like Cuban does for the Mavs. If they're too damn stupid to take advantage of it to the degree that Cubes does, then it's tough S#!$ and their own damn fault. It would be one thing if Cuban had special access that other teams didn't have, but the fact is Cubes doesn't. Cuban just makes better use of his access than other owners. It's pretty crappy to complain about someone conducting business in a smart and efficient manner. All Cuban does in complain about missed called on the Mavs, and he documents those complaints extremely well. Most other teams just bith and moan, but do very little to document their complaints.

If Jeff Van Gundy has any complaints it should be about the Rockets owner and managemnt being too damn A) Lazy B) Cheap C) Stupid or D) all of the above to take advantage of the access the way Cuban has.

dude1394
05-04-2005, 11:48 AM
This has been a truly monumental display of whining! There should be a whining trophy somewhere so houston could get it. I thought I had seen it all with sacremento, but truly,truly oscar winning performances by NOT ONLY the houston fans, but their players, their coach, their owners.

Wow, amazing how one city can become so great at something.

The winner for the oscar for the whiniest fans on the planet....The HOUSTON ROCKETS!!.. Jeff Van Gundy and Tracy McGrady will be accepting the award. Yao Ming could not be here as he is busy whining to a few billion citizens back in china.

Good grief.

razap
05-04-2005, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by: mary

Originally posted by: razap
As a fan of the NBA I can agree with inconsistent officiating however I tire of Cuban's antics. Essentially Cuban is a fan with a platform to complain. I would compare it to one of us being able to personally call a meeting with Stern and complaining about the officiating. If Cuban starts to affect games I have a problem with it. Just because he has the platform to get Stern's ear does not allow him to essentially have certain players looked at for their habits. Dirk flops quite a bit and Cuban seems to be ok with him getting phantom calls..

RAZAP, every single owner has a platform to complain about officiating - and they all do. They all make phone calls, they all send in tapes, period.

The 0.4 second debacle wasn't really all that long ago, was it?

Were you upset then about Pop's "antics"???



Pop is not an owner who continually badgers the NBA. Cuban is and badgers the NBA. Please remind what exactly Pop did that you are comparing him to Cuban.

dude1394
05-04-2005, 11:58 AM
Razap, you don't have a clue what Pop or the spurs do behind closed doors. Nor did you have a clue that the mavs had sent anything to the nba until van gundy whined about it.

Also, cubes has been the best thing for the nba's refs in years. He's refused to accept the status quo and pushed it, the nba and the fans should be grateful that he was willing to take the heat. How many columnists said that cubes should shut up because it was BAD FOR THE TEAM and the refs would reataliate.

Now it's supposedly GOOD for the team because the refs will kowtow to him.

Shows how stupid both arguments are.

razap
05-04-2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: razap
As a fan of the NBA I can agree with inconsistent officiating however I tire of Cuban's antics. Essentially Cuban is a fan with a platform to complain. I would compare it to one of us being able to personally call a meeting with Stern and complaining about the officiating. If Cuban starts to affect games I have a problem with it. Just because he has the platform to get Stern's ear does not allow him to essentially have certain players looked at for their habits. Dirk flops quite a bit and Cuban seems to be ok with him getting phantom calls..

Sorry but this statement is total BS IMO. Cuban has no more of a platform than any other NBA owner. Sure he might have more than you or I, but he paid a hell of a lot of money to get what any other NBA owner already had. All NBA teams have the ability to complain and send tape in just like Cuban does for the Mavs. If they're too damn stupid to take advantage of it to the degree that Cubes does, then it's tough S#!$ and their own damn fault. It would be one thing if Cuban had special access that other teams didn't have, but the fact is Cubes doesn't. Cuban just makes better use of his access than other owners. It's pretty crappy to complain about someone conducting business in a smart and efficient manner. All Cuban does in complain about missed called on the Mavs, and he documents those complaints extremely well. Most other teams just bith and moan, but do very little to document their complaints.

If Jeff Van Gundy has any complaints it should be about the Rockets owner and managemnt being too damn A) Lazy B) Cheap C) Stupid or D) all of the above to take advantage of the access the way Cuban has.



Officitaing is subjectivre and Cuban needs to stop his contiual whine. I am sure every team in the NBA could compile and "NBA against my team" video but most chalk it up to being a part of the game and not consistently complain. Smart and efficient means complaining non-stop?

endtroducing
05-04-2005, 11:59 AM
oh man, Cuban wants his team to win and have games called fairly! most of the time, the calls benefit his team! what a sin!

razap
05-04-2005, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by: dude1394
This has been a truly monumental display of whining! There should be a whining trophy somewhere so houston could get it. I thought I had seen it all with sacremento, but truly,truly oscar winning performances by NOT ONLY the houston fans, but their players, their coach, their owners.

Wow, amazing how one city can become so great at something.

The winner for the oscar for the whiniest fans on the planet....The HOUSTON ROCKETS!!.. Jeff Van Gundy and Tracy McGrady will be accepting the award. Yao Ming could not be here as he is busy whining to a few billion citizens back in china.

Good grief.

A Mav fan labeling other team's fans as whiners? Your kidding right?

endtroducing
05-04-2005, 12:01 PM
get the hell off our board then

dude1394
05-04-2005, 12:01 PM
Razap you are obviously NOT looking at clutchcity. Go there and look at how many THREADS!! I mean THREADS!! that are concerned with nothing but whining to the officials? How many threads do you see here?

I guess you might say it's because we are getting all of the breaks so we have nothing to whine about. We didn't whine when we were down by 2. Mavs fans aren't even close to being the whiners that I've seen from houston, it's pretty embarressing to think they are in the same great state of texas.

mary
05-04-2005, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary

Originally posted by: razap
As a fan of the NBA I can agree with inconsistent officiating however I tire of Cuban's antics. Essentially Cuban is a fan with a platform to complain. I would compare it to one of us being able to personally call a meeting with Stern and complaining about the officiating. If Cuban starts to affect games I have a problem with it. Just because he has the platform to get Stern's ear does not allow him to essentially have certain players looked at for their habits. Dirk flops quite a bit and Cuban seems to be ok with him getting phantom calls..

RAZAP, every single owner has a platform to complain about officiating - and they all do. They all make phone calls, they all send in tapes, period.

The 0.4 second debacle wasn't really all that long ago, was it?

Were you upset then about Pop's "antics"???



Pop is not an owner who continually badgers the NBA. Cuban is and badgers the NBA. Please remind what exactly Pop did that you are comparing him to Cuban.

Did Pop not throw a big shit fit about to the league about the time clock not being activated early enough when Fisher received the ball? Name me a single organization that hasn't complained and bitched about certain players, certain calls and certain games to the league during the course of the regular season AND the playoffs.

Name one.



Go ahead.



I'm waiting.



Seriously.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by: dude1394
Razap, you don't have a clue what Pop or the spurs do behind closed doors. Nor did you have a clue that the mavs had sent anything to the nba until van gundy whined about it.

Also, cubes has been the best thing for the nba's refs in years. He's refused to accept the status quo and pushed it, the nba and the fans should be grateful that he was willing to take the heat. How many columnists said that cubes should shut up because it was BAD FOR THE TEAM and the refs would reataliate.

Now it's supposedly GOOD for the team because the refs will kowtow to him.

Shows how stupid both arguments are.


so i suppose you have a 'clue' what cuban does behind closed doors? well i hope every team in the nba compalins about floppy dirk.. I am sure you mav fans will welcome that "because it's good for the game".. Initially I liked Cuban and what he did but it gets old and more and more people are tiring of his non-stop complaining.. Nice generalization about other fans to justify your arguments. IT GETS OLD.

dude1394
05-04-2005, 12:06 PM
Never said I did silly, but you sure don't. You don't know what Pop (the owner??) does behind closed doors either.

What gets old is a team that can't open their mouth without whining to the refs. Did you watch van gundy's press conference. He mentioned finleys' play 4 times!! Damn, you might think that his team has something to do with the game, but heck no.,

It's the REFS!! They hate me!! They hate Yao!! They hate houston!! Everyone is against me, it's just not FAIRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!! WAWWWWWW....

Every team probabley DOES complain after every game. Just like they do in the NFL and just like they probably do in every other game. Only in HOUSTON does whining become an art form.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by: mary

Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary

Originally posted by: razap
As a fan of the NBA I can agree with inconsistent officiating however I tire of Cuban's antics. Essentially Cuban is a fan with a platform to complain. I would compare it to one of us being able to personally call a meeting with Stern and complaining about the officiating. If Cuban starts to affect games I have a problem with it. Just because he has the platform to get Stern's ear does not allow him to essentially have certain players looked at for their habits. Dirk flops quite a bit and Cuban seems to be ok with him getting phantom calls..

RAZAP, every single owner has a platform to complain about officiating - and they all do. They all make phone calls, they all send in tapes, period.

The 0.4 second debacle wasn't really all that long ago, was it?

Were you upset then about Pop's "antics"???



Pop is not an owner who continually badgers the NBA. Cuban is and badgers the NBA. Please remind what exactly Pop did that you are comparing him to Cuban.

Did Pop not throw a big shit fit about to the league about the time clock not being activated early enough when Fisher received the ball? Name me a single organization that hasn't complained and bitched about certain players, certain calls and certain games to the league during the course of the regular season AND the playoffs.

Name one.



Go ahead.



I'm waiting.



Seriously.

I don't remember Pop having a sh*t fit. i do remember he thought the clock started late but he eventually moved on..and as a matter of fact i never read anywhere after the series was over that Pop went back and blamed the referees for having out to get him


an answer to your question,

i know your waiting

san antonio spurs.. if you disgaree then please provide examples to dispute it. just because your argument sounds good in your head does not make it such. easy to make very broad statements like "prove to me not on other eam has complained about officiating"..All do, but all teams do not continually complain to the leage like Cuban does.

endtroducing
05-04-2005, 12:09 PM
I'm sick of the Spurs homer.

Bookit
05-04-2005, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: dude1394
Razap, you don't have a clue what Pop or the spurs do behind closed doors. Nor did you have a clue that the mavs had sent anything to the nba until van gundy whined about it.

Also, cubes has been the best thing for the nba's refs in years. He's refused to accept the status quo and pushed it, the nba and the fans should be grateful that he was willing to take the heat. How many columnists said that cubes should shut up because it was BAD FOR THE TEAM and the refs would reataliate.

Now it's supposedly GOOD for the team because the refs will kowtow to him.

Shows how stupid both arguments are.


so i suppose you have a 'clue' what cuban does behind closed doors? well i hope every team in the nba compalins about floppy dirk.. I am sure you mav fans will welcome that "because it's good for the game".. Initially I liked Cuban and what he did but it gets old and more and more people are tiring of his non-stop complaining.. Nice generalization about other fans to justify your arguments. IT GETS OLD.

razap, please don't comment on flopping. Manu Ginobili is by far the biggest flopper in the game. He flings his arms and body after EVERY bit of contact on every play. Dirk is nowhere near the flopper he Manu is go get off it.

LRB
05-04-2005, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by: razap


Officitaing is subjectivre and Cuban needs to stop his contiual whine. I am sure every team in the NBA could compile and "NBA against my team" video but most chalk it up to being a part of the game and not consistently complain. Smart and efficient means complaining non-stop?


Officiating does have a subjective component to it, however it also has objective components to it as well. And even the subjective component doesn't preclude the referee's from being held accountable of at least some degree of reasonableness in regards to their subjective calls. And if most NBA teams want to sit on their collective @$$es and do nothing to try and improve officiating, then then that's their right. However, I call them hypocrits when some, like the Rockets and JVG in particular, whine like teething babies because Cuban does take advantage of that opportunity.

And Cuban does not complain non-stop. Cubes has actually given numerous compliments to the NBA and officials for improvements which have been made. Sure Cubes does still send in plays that he disagrees with, but not as much as he used to. It's smart business when your actions result in positive changes in your business evironment. Cuban has had at least a minor part in effecting positive changes in NBA officiating. If nothing else he has raised the level of accountability of NBA refs and NBA officials.

But seriously, it sounds like you're just expressing a whine rather tha a legit complaint.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by: Bookit

Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: dude1394
Razap, you don't have a clue what Pop or the spurs do behind closed doors. Nor did you have a clue that the mavs had sent anything to the nba until van gundy whined about it.

Also, cubes has been the best thing for the nba's refs in years. He's refused to accept the status quo and pushed it, the nba and the fans should be grateful that he was willing to take the heat. How many columnists said that cubes should shut up because it was BAD FOR THE TEAM and the refs would reataliate.

Now it's supposedly GOOD for the team because the refs will kowtow to him.

Shows how stupid both arguments are.


so i suppose you have a 'clue' what cuban does behind closed doors? well i hope every team in the nba compalins about floppy dirk.. I am sure you mav fans will welcome that "because it's good for the game".. Initially I liked Cuban and what he did but it gets old and more and more people are tiring of his non-stop complaining.. Nice generalization about other fans to justify your arguments. IT GETS OLD.

razap, please don't comment on flopping. Manu Ginobili is by far the biggest flopper in the game. He flings his arms and body after EVERY bit of contact on every play. Dirk is nowhere near the flopper he Manu is go get off it.



the difference is manu actually exaggerates contact..dirk falls downwithout contact.. big difference..

dude1394
05-04-2005, 12:11 PM
So here I go to look at the threads on the clutchcity.whine.com thread. This is first page mind you.

1. There's the Jon Barry on 610 whine about the refs thread.
2. NBA's advocate
3. Game 6 changt
4. JVG Support/Officiating Petition
5. Fans to stern, open the refs website
6. Drexler and some ref's wife (???)
7. Firestern.com
8. Lester supports van gundy.

Hell there's only 1 thread that even deals with the game. I expect it's 80% whining about the refs as well.

mary
05-04-2005, 12:11 PM
san antonio spurs.. if you disgaree then please provide examples to dispute it. just because your argument sounds good in your head does not make it such. easy to make very broad statements like "prove to me not on other eam has compalined about officiating"..All do but all do not continually complain to the leage like Cuban does.


Really? That is HYSTERICAL. I guess I will have to dig up some old stuff about POP's hissy fit with the league.

Give me a break. I'm cracking up!

endtroducing
05-04-2005, 12:13 PM
you should lay off of him. anyone that can sit through a season of Spurs basketball is a much stronger man than I. I'm falling asleep just talking about them.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: razap


Officitaing is subjectivre and Cuban needs to stop his contiual whine. I am sure every team in the NBA could compile and "NBA against my team" video but most chalk it up to being a part of the game and not consistently complain. Smart and efficient means complaining non-stop?


Officiating does have a subjective component to it, however it also has objective components to it as well. And even the subjective component doesn't preclude the referee's from being held accountable of at least some degree of reasonableness in regards to their subjective calls. And if most NBA teams want to sit on their collective @$$es and do nothing to try and improve officiating, then then that's their right. However, I call them hypocrits when some, like the Rockets and JVG in particular, whine like teething babies because Cuban does take advantage of that opportunity.

And Cuban does not complain non-stop. Cubes has actually given numerous compliments to the NBA and officials for improvements which have been made. Sure Cubes does still send in plays that he disagrees with, but not as much as he used to. It's smart business when your actions result in positive changes in your business evironment. Cuban has had at least a minor part in effecting positive changes in NBA officiating. If nothing else he has raised the level of accountability of NBA refs and NBA officials.

But seriously, it sounds like you're just expressing a whine rather tha a legit complaint.



hey refs suck sometimes and it affects the spurs. that's how it is but for amv fan to take the high road and give the impression that they tire of other fans whining need to review their own archives.. to me that makes you and all other maverick fans hypocrites

razap
05-04-2005, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by: mary

san antonio spurs.. if you disgaree then please provide examples to dispute it. just because your argument sounds good in your head does not make it such. easy to make very broad statements like "prove to me not on other eam has compalined about officiating"..All do but all do not continually complain to the leage like Cuban does.


Really? That is HYSTERICAL. I guess I will have to dig up some old stuff about POP's hissy fit with the league.

Give me a break. I'm cracking up!

i'm waiting



seriously




patiently

razap
05-04-2005, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by: endtroducing
you should lay off of him. anyone that can sit through a season of Spurs basketball is a much stronger man than I. I'm falling asleep just talking about them.

nope. winning never gets old. you can sleep through that but I like to enjoy the ride..

dude1394
05-04-2005, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by: dude1394
So here I go to look at the threads on the clutchcity.whine.com thread. This is first page mind you.

1. There's the Jon Barry on 610 whine about the refs thread.
2. NBA's advocate
3. Game 6 changt
4. JVG Support/Officiating Petition
5. Fans to stern, open the refs website
6. Drexler and some ref's wife (???)
7. Firestern.com
8. Lester supports van gundy.

Hell there's only 1 thread that even deals with the game. I expect it's 80% whining about the refs as well.

Oopps forgot a couple.

- Dierker supports van gundy
- Photoshop the pain thread. (Tin foil photoshops)
- Mattress mac offers to pay the fine.

dude1394
05-04-2005, 12:18 PM
Only site that comes close to whining about the refs that clutchcity.whine.com does is the spurs sites.

mary
05-04-2005, 12:19 PM
Pop's latest complaint


What happened? The Spurs asked the NBA for clarification on Mike Miller's winning shot at the end of Monday's loss in Memphis.

League officials, Popovich said, have yet to answer all the team's questions.

Miller's 22-foot shot came after the final buzzer. Referee Steve Javie recognized the clock had started early and awarded the basket.

The referees huddled for about five minutes but never looked at a replay of the shot.

"They're still discussing it," Popovich said of league officials. "In general, I think it's the right decision because it's the fair thing to do. It's obvious to everybody on the planet the clock started way too early, and he would have gotten it off. He made it, so give them the win. But there are technical parts to it, too, and questions that have to be answered.

"What if it didn't go in? Would they have done a do-over? What if the clock started too late, would they say screw it and just go with it?"

The Spurs are interested in the interpretation because of the finish in Game 5 of last season's Western Conference semifinals loss to the Los Angeles Lakers. After Derek Fisher caught and released the winning shot in 0.4 seconds, the Spurs contended the clock started late.




Wow, that didn't even take very long. Of course, I'm sure Pop's "inquiry" is okay and not seen as bitching. Just like I believe Cuban's "inquiry" about moving screens is okay and not seen as bitching.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by: mary
Pop's latest complaint


What happened? The Spurs asked the NBA for clarification on Mike Miller's winning shot at the end of Monday's loss in Memphis.

League officials, Popovich said, have yet to answer all the team's questions.

Miller's 22-foot shot came after the final buzzer. Referee Steve Javie recognized the clock had started early and awarded the basket.

The referees huddled for about five minutes but never looked at a replay of the shot.

"They're still discussing it," Popovich said of league officials. "In general, I think it's the right decision because it's the fair thing to do. It's obvious to everybody on the planet the clock started way too early, and he would have gotten it off. He made it, so give them the win. But there are technical parts to it, too, and questions that have to be answered.

"What if it didn't go in? Would they have done a do-over? What if the clock started too late, would they say screw it and just go with it?"

The Spurs are interested in the interpretation because of the finish in Game 5 of last season's Western Conference semifinals loss to the Los Angeles Lakers. After Derek Fisher caught and released the winning shot in 0.4 seconds, the Spurs contended the clock started late.




Wow, that didn't even take very long. Of course, I'm sure Pop's "inquiry" is okay and not seen as bitching. Just like I believe Cuban's "inquiry" about moving screens is okay and not seen as bitching.



do you even know what happened? the game was over and they were standing around. Pop was laughing.. as were the players.. this game served no one.. duncan played little.. is that all you have got? i am still waiting for the '.4' ranting and raving, conistent complaining he did.. dropped that one already? Pop actaully accepted it..did you even read what you posted? ver yweak little lady..

mary
05-04-2005, 12:23 PM
oh,,ohh...ohhhh


Spurs coach Gregg Popovich refused to discuss Fisher’s shot. When asked if the clock started late Popovich responded; "I think it definitely started late." The Spurs also filed a protest with the league claiming the clock didn’t immediately start after Fisher caught the ball. One of the game officials starts the clock by a wireless device on his belt, while a neutral clock timer is the back up.


Oh, that's gotta hurt.

mary
05-04-2005, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary
Pop's latest complaint


What happened? The Spurs asked the NBA for clarification on Mike Miller's winning shot at the end of Monday's loss in Memphis.

League officials, Popovich said, have yet to answer all the team's questions.

Miller's 22-foot shot came after the final buzzer. Referee Steve Javie recognized the clock had started early and awarded the basket.

The referees huddled for about five minutes but never looked at a replay of the shot.

"They're still discussing it," Popovich said of league officials. "In general, I think it's the right decision because it's the fair thing to do. It's obvious to everybody on the planet the clock started way too early, and he would have gotten it off. He made it, so give them the win. But there are technical parts to it, too, and questions that have to be answered.

"What if it didn't go in? Would they have done a do-over? What if the clock started too late, would they say screw it and just go with it?"

The Spurs are interested in the interpretation because of the finish in Game 5 of last season's Western Conference semifinals loss to the Los Angeles Lakers. After Derek Fisher caught and released the winning shot in 0.4 seconds, the Spurs contended the clock started late.




Wow, that didn't even take very long. Of course, I'm sure Pop's "inquiry" is okay and not seen as bitching. Just like I believe Cuban's "inquiry" about moving screens is okay and not seen as bitching.



do you even know what happened? the game was over and they were standing around. Pop was laughing.. as were the players.. this game served no one.. duncan played little.. is that all you have got? i am still waiting for the '.4' ranting and raving, conistent complaining he did.. dropped that one already? Pop actaully accepted it..did you even read what you posted? ver yweak little lady..

I asked you to name me a team that didn't complain to the league about officiating, and you cockily reply "San Antonio Spurs". In the span of 5 minutes I've given you two specific examples with very limited resources.

EVERY SINGLE TEAM makes complaints to the league razap.

Your high horse is LAME.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by: mary
oh,,ohh...ohhhh


Spurs coach Gregg Popovich refused to discuss Fisher’s shot. When asked if the clock started late Popovich responded; "I think it definitely started late." The Spurs also filed a protest with the league claiming the clock didn’t immediately start after Fisher caught the ball. One of the game officials starts the clock by a wireless device on his belt, while a neutral clock timer is the back up.


Oh, that's gotta hurt.

where's the ranting and raving? whining? continual video references?.. cuban did not file a protest HE COMPLAINED!

LRB
05-04-2005, 12:25 PM
hey refs suck sometimes and it affects the spurs. that's how it is but for amv fan to take the high road and give the impression that they tire of other fans whining need to review their own archives.. to me that makes you and all other maverick fans hypocrites


Just look by at this site after the Mavs lost the 1st 2 games at home in this series. There were precious few complaints about the refs and even fewer blamed the refs for the loss. The vast majority accepted that we got beat because Houston came to play and we didn't. But come on, I can't remember a time that I've heard a playoff team's coach and fans bitch about the refs the way I've heard Houston's. JVG didn't get the biggest fine in NBA history nothing.

But the biggest hypocrit here IMO is you razap. When we won the 1st game in the WCF a couple of years ago against your spurs, your fans, media, and even Pop bitched like little girls about the officiating. Sure it wasn't on the level of Houston's hissy fit, but then they are trying to say with a straight face that their team never complains about refs. From you posts it's easy to see that you're looking through some mighty rose colored Spur glasses.

And as for your IMO dumbass crack about Ginobli actually gitting hit, how soon you forget that Dirk lost a freaking tooth in a playoff game against the spurs and all he did was pick it up give it to the trainer and get back in the game. Dirk is one of the toughest competitors in the game. He's also not an idiot. Any top player who gets a decent about of foul calls, Duncan included, flops. I don't like it and would just as soon see it removed from the league. But honestly, I don't see any team that has room to talk.

LRB
05-04-2005, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary
oh,,ohh...ohhhh


Spurs coach Gregg Popovich refused to discuss Fisher’s shot. When asked if the clock started late Popovich responded; "I think it definitely started late." The Spurs also filed a protest with the league claiming the clock didn’t immediately start after Fisher caught the ball. One of the game officials starts the clock by a wireless device on his belt, while a neutral clock timer is the back up.


Oh, that's gotta hurt.

where's the ranting and raving? whining? continual video references?.. cuban did not file a protest HE COMPLAINED!


Talk about trying to split hairs on a tick's @$$.
i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif

razap
05-04-2005, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

hey refs suck sometimes and it affects the spurs. that's how it is but for amv fan to take the high road and give the impression that they tire of other fans whining need to review their own archives.. to me that makes you and all other maverick fans hypocrites


Just look by at this site after the Mavs lost the 1st 2 games at home in this series. There were precious few complaints about the refs and even fewer blamed the refs for the loss. The vast majority accepted that we got beat because Houston came to play and we didn't. But come on, I can't remember a time that I've heard a playoff team's coach and fans bitch about the refs the way I've heard Houston's. JVG didn't get the biggest fine in NBA history nothing.

But the biggest hypocrit here IMO is you razap. When we won the 1st game in the WCF a couple of years ago against your spurs, your fans, media, and even Pop bitched like little girls about the officiating. Sure it wasn't on the level of Houston's hissy fit, but then they are trying to say with a straight face that their team never complains about refs. From you posts it's easy to see that you're looking through some mighty rose colored Spur glasses.

And as for your IMO dumbass crack about Ginobli actually gitting hit, how soon you forget that Dirk lost a freaking tooth in a playoff game against the spurs and all he did was pick it up give it to the trainer and get back in the game. Dirk is one of the toughest competitors in the game. He's also not an idiot. Any top player who gets a decent about of foul calls, Duncan included, flops. I don't like it and would just as soon see it removed from the league. But honestly, I don't see any team that has room to talk.



GAME 1? THE MAVERSICKS SHOT 50 FREE THROWS... they never came close to that again.. If you don't like giniobilli flopping then don't touch him. very simple. dirk flops when you look at him funny..

dude1394
05-04-2005, 12:28 PM
Whine on, whine on..

Is there a clutchwhinespurs.com site somewhere.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by: mary

Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary
Pop's latest complaint


What happened? The Spurs asked the NBA for clarification on Mike Miller's winning shot at the end of Monday's loss in Memphis.

League officials, Popovich said, have yet to answer all the team's questions.

Miller's 22-foot shot came after the final buzzer. Referee Steve Javie recognized the clock had started early and awarded the basket.

The referees huddled for about five minutes but never looked at a replay of the shot.

"They're still discussing it," Popovich said of league officials. "In general, I think it's the right decision because it's the fair thing to do. It's obvious to everybody on the planet the clock started way too early, and he would have gotten it off. He made it, so give them the win. But there are technical parts to it, too, and questions that have to be answered.

"What if it didn't go in? Would they have done a do-over? What if the clock started too late, would they say screw it and just go with it?"

The Spurs are interested in the interpretation because of the finish in Game 5 of last season's Western Conference semifinals loss to the Los Angeles Lakers. After Derek Fisher caught and released the winning shot in 0.4 seconds, the Spurs contended the clock started late.




Wow, that didn't even take very long. Of course, I'm sure Pop's "inquiry" is okay and not seen as bitching. Just like I believe Cuban's "inquiry" about moving screens is okay and not seen as bitching.



do you even know what happened? the game was over and they were standing around. Pop was laughing.. as were the players.. this game served no one.. duncan played little.. is that all you have got? i am still waiting for the '.4' ranting and raving, conistent complaining he did.. dropped that one already? Pop actaully accepted it..did you even read what you posted? ver yweak little lady..

I asked you to name me a team that didn't complain to the league about officiating, and you cockily reply "San Antonio Spurs". In the span of 5 minutes I've given you two specific examples with very limited resources.

EVERY SINGLE TEAM makes complaints to the league razap.

Your high horse is LAME.




i hate to keep bringing this up mary but POP IS NOT AN OWNER. CUBAN BADGERS THE NBA... protesting a time clock issue and continually sending videos by the OWNER are 2 different things mary..

mary
05-04-2005, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary

Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary
Pop's latest complaint


What happened? The Spurs asked the NBA for clarification on Mike Miller's winning shot at the end of Monday's loss in Memphis.

League officials, Popovich said, have yet to answer all the team's questions.

Miller's 22-foot shot came after the final buzzer. Referee Steve Javie recognized the clock had started early and awarded the basket.

The referees huddled for about five minutes but never looked at a replay of the shot.

"They're still discussing it," Popovich said of league officials. "In general, I think it's the right decision because it's the fair thing to do. It's obvious to everybody on the planet the clock started way too early, and he would have gotten it off. He made it, so give them the win. But there are technical parts to it, too, and questions that have to be answered.

"What if it didn't go in? Would they have done a do-over? What if the clock started too late, would they say screw it and just go with it?"

The Spurs are interested in the interpretation because of the finish in Game 5 of last season's Western Conference semifinals loss to the Los Angeles Lakers. After Derek Fisher caught and released the winning shot in 0.4 seconds, the Spurs contended the clock started late.




Wow, that didn't even take very long. Of course, I'm sure Pop's "inquiry" is okay and not seen as bitching. Just like I believe Cuban's "inquiry" about moving screens is okay and not seen as bitching.



do you even know what happened? the game was over and they were standing around. Pop was laughing.. as were the players.. this game served no one.. duncan played little.. is that all you have got? i am still waiting for the '.4' ranting and raving, conistent complaining he did.. dropped that one already? Pop actaully accepted it..did you even read what you posted? ver yweak little lady..

I asked you to name me a team that didn't complain to the league about officiating, and you cockily reply "San Antonio Spurs". In the span of 5 minutes I've given you two specific examples with very limited resources.

EVERY SINGLE TEAM makes complaints to the league razap.

Your high horse is LAME.




i hate to keep bringing this up mary but POP IS NOT AN OWNER. CUBAN BADGERS THE NBA... protesting a time clock issue and continually sending videos by the OWNER are 2 different things mary..


Okay, so NOW your position is that its okay for coaches to bitch and complain, but certainly not OWNERS, who....you know...actually OWN the franchises.

Wow, that MAKES ALOT OF SENSE!

dude1394
05-04-2005, 12:33 PM
His position is out to lunch. Maybe he's a san antonio resident who has an inferiority complex against dallas. Sort of like houston it seems.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by: mary

Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary

Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary
Pop's latest complaint


What happened? The Spurs asked the NBA for clarification on Mike Miller's winning shot at the end of Monday's loss in Memphis.

League officials, Popovich said, have yet to answer all the team's questions.

Miller's 22-foot shot came after the final buzzer. Referee Steve Javie recognized the clock had started early and awarded the basket.

The referees huddled for about five minutes but never looked at a replay of the shot.

"They're still discussing it," Popovich said of league officials. "In general, I think it's the right decision because it's the fair thing to do. It's obvious to everybody on the planet the clock started way too early, and he would have gotten it off. He made it, so give them the win. But there are technical parts to it, too, and questions that have to be answered.

"What if it didn't go in? Would they have done a do-over? What if the clock started too late, would they say screw it and just go with it?"

The Spurs are interested in the interpretation because of the finish in Game 5 of last season's Western Conference semifinals loss to the Los Angeles Lakers. After Derek Fisher caught and released the winning shot in 0.4 seconds, the Spurs contended the clock started late.




Wow, that didn't even take very long. Of course, I'm sure Pop's "inquiry" is okay and not seen as bitching. Just like I believe Cuban's "inquiry" about moving screens is okay and not seen as bitching.



do you even know what happened? the game was over and they were standing around. Pop was laughing.. as were the players.. this game served no one.. duncan played little.. is that all you have got? i am still waiting for the '.4' ranting and raving, conistent complaining he did.. dropped that one already? Pop actaully accepted it..did you even read what you posted? ver yweak little lady..

I asked you to name me a team that didn't complain to the league about officiating, and you cockily reply "San Antonio Spurs". In the span of 5 minutes I've given you two specific examples with very limited resources.

EVERY SINGLE TEAM makes complaints to the league razap.

Your high horse is LAME.




i hate to keep bringing this up mary but POP IS NOT AN OWNER. CUBAN BADGERS THE NBA... protesting a time clock issue and continually sending videos by the OWNER are 2 different things mary..


Okay, so NOW your position is that its okay for coaches to bitch and complain, but certainly not OWNERS, who....you know...actually OWN the franchises.

Wow, that MAKES ALOT OF SENSE!



mary my original post deals with Cuban and his continual complaing and you dropped it to teams complain. i never said teaams complain my problem is with Cuban's continual whining..

razap
05-04-2005, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by: mary

Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary

Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mary
Pop's latest complaint


What happened? The Spurs asked the NBA for clarification on Mike Miller's winning shot at the end of Monday's loss in Memphis.

League officials, Popovich said, have yet to answer all the team's questions.

Miller's 22-foot shot came after the final buzzer. Referee Steve Javie recognized the clock had started early and awarded the basket.

The referees huddled for about five minutes but never looked at a replay of the shot.

"They're still discussing it," Popovich said of league officials. "In general, I think it's the right decision because it's the fair thing to do. It's obvious to everybody on the planet the clock started way too early, and he would have gotten it off. He made it, so give them the win. But there are technical parts to it, too, and questions that have to be answered.

"What if it didn't go in? Would they have done a do-over? What if the clock started too late, would they say screw it and just go with it?"

The Spurs are interested in the interpretation because of the finish in Game 5 of last season's Western Conference semifinals loss to the Los Angeles Lakers. After Derek Fisher caught and released the winning shot in 0.4 seconds, the Spurs contended the clock started late.




Wow, that didn't even take very long. Of course, I'm sure Pop's "inquiry" is okay and not seen as bitching. Just like I believe Cuban's "inquiry" about moving screens is okay and not seen as bitching.



do you even know what happened? the game was over and they were standing around. Pop was laughing.. as were the players.. this game served no one.. duncan played little.. is that all you have got? i am still waiting for the '.4' ranting and raving, conistent complaining he did.. dropped that one already? Pop actaully accepted it..did you even read what you posted? ver yweak little lady..

I asked you to name me a team that didn't complain to the league about officiating, and you cockily reply "San Antonio Spurs". In the span of 5 minutes I've given you two specific examples with very limited resources.

EVERY SINGLE TEAM makes complaints to the league razap.

Your high horse is LAME.




i hate to keep bringing this up mary but POP IS NOT AN OWNER. CUBAN BADGERS THE NBA... protesting a time clock issue and continually sending videos by the OWNER are 2 different things mary..


Okay, so NOW your position is that its okay for coaches to bitch and complain, but certainly not OWNERS, who....you know...actually OWN the franchises.

Wow, that MAKES ALOT OF SENSE!



mary my original post deals with Cuban and his continual complaining and you changed it to teams complain. i never said teams don't complain my problem is with Cuban's continual whining..does that make it any clearer for you?

LRB
05-04-2005, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by: dude1394
His position is out to lunch. Maybe he's a san antonio resident who has an inferiority complex against dallas. Sort of like houston it seems.

Gosh I never knew that the spurs had such a bunch of whiney crying fans with SPD. i/expressions/anim_roller.gif

mary
05-04-2005, 12:38 PM
Name me a single organization that hasn't complained and bitched about certain players, certain calls and certain games to the league during the course of the regular season AND the playoffs.




an answer to your question,

i know your waiting

san antonio spurs


What a backtracker.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: dude1394
His position is out to lunch. Maybe he's a san antonio resident who has an inferiority complex against dallas. Sort of like houston it seems.

Gosh I never knew that the spurs had such a bunch of whiney crying fans with SPD. i/expressions/anim_roller.gif

i guess i never knew what a whiner owner the mav fans have..i guess like owner like fans..

LRB
05-04-2005, 12:41 PM
i guess i never knew what a whiner owner the mav fans have..i guess like owner like fans..

Translation: WHINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Caliente
05-04-2005, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

And as for your IMO dumbass crack about Ginobli actually gitting hit, how soon you forget that Dirk lost a freaking tooth in a playoff game against the spurs and all he did was pick it up give it to the trainer and get back in the game. Dirk is one of the toughest competitors in the game. He's also not an idiot. Any top player who gets a decent about of foul calls, Duncan included, flops. I don't like it and would just as soon see it removed from the league. But honestly, I don't see any team that has room to talk.[/quote]

I remember that game too............

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=dirk+nowitzki/v=2/SID=e/l=IVS/SIG=12fjje54j/EXP=1115314952/*-http%3A//www.onlineathens.com/images/051301/nowitzki_dirk.jpg

razap
05-04-2005, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by: mary

Name me a single organization that hasn't complained and bitched about certain players, certain calls and certain games to the league during the course of the regular season AND the playoffs.




an answer to your question,

i know your waiting

san antonio spurs


What a backtracker.



let me guess you went back to verify if i did in fact mention owners specfically and it was? You changed it to teams ..you could not back up your arguement so cenveniently you changed it.. gotcha mary. nice playing with you.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by: mary

Name me a single organization that hasn't complained and bitched about certain players, certain calls and certain games to the league during the course of the regular season AND the playoffs.




an answer to your question,

i know your waiting

san antonio spurs


What a backtracker.



let me guess you went back to verify if i did in fact mention owners specfically and it was? You changed it to teams ..you could not back up your argument so conveniently you changed it.. gotcha mary. nice playing with you.

razap
05-04-2005, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

i guess i never knew what a whiner owner the mav fans have..i guess like owner like fans..

Translation: WHINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!! !

wow you you have got that down moderator.. be proud mav fans even the moderator has the maverick whine down..bravo.. bravo..

StrikerV
05-04-2005, 12:55 PM
Spurs fans are worse than Laker+King fans combined.

aexchange
05-04-2005, 12:59 PM
PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE AN ENTIRE THREAD IN YOUR REPLY. QUOTE THE PART YOU WANT TO ARGUE AND MOVE ON.

Speedy
05-04-2005, 01:03 PM
You people are heartless! Is everyone just going to stand around and watch Razap drown? Help him!

endtroducing
05-04-2005, 01:03 PM
Spurs fans are great.

mary
05-04-2005, 01:11 PM
let me guess you went back to verify if i did in fact mention owners specfically and it was? You changed it to teams ..you could not back up your argument so conveniently you changed it.. gotcha mary. nice playing with you.



Razap, I asked you to name me a team that doesn't complain. You said "San Antonio Spurs". You said prove it. Without access to newspapers archives or league documents, within 3 minutes I gave you two specific examples. Just imagine if I had proper access. Anytime an organization is complaining to the league, then the owner's approval/involvement is implied. To believe otherwise is naive. You said "San Antonio Spurs". You said they didn't complain. You were wrong.

LRB
05-04-2005, 01:23 PM
Forget it Mary, he's obviously here to post his whines and not argue logically. Take for example the lack of concrete recent examples of Cuban "complaining" to the NBA officials about the officiating.

razap
05-04-2005, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by: mary

let me guess you went back to verify if i did in fact mention owners specfically and it was? You changed it to teams ..you could not back up your argument so conveniently you changed it.. gotcha mary. nice playing with you.



Razap, I asked you to name me a team that doesn't complain. You said "San Antonio Spurs". You said prove it. Without access to newspapers archives or league documents, within 3 minutes I gave you two specific examples. Just imagine if I had proper access. Anytime an organization is complaining to the league, then the owner's approval/involvement is implied. To believe otherwise is naive. You said "San Antonio Spurs". You said they didn't complain. You were wrong.


oh i see now the 'owner' invlolvement is implied... nice way to bolster your wek argument.. so what you are sying is that every owner has to ok the complaining? take part? take the initiative? give the ok?

so you are ignoring my premise. CUBAN'S ACT GETS OLD. No not every owner needs to sit right next to the bench. they do not feel the need to interject themselves in to the game. I would never say Teams don't complain. I said Cuban gets over board and under that premise I said no other team goes that far. how's that for logic LRB? Are you able to follow along..It's very important to understand the premise of a 'logical' argument. You can change the premise to bolster a weak argument..hence see mary's argument..

razap
05-04-2005, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by: LRB
Forget it Mary, he's obviously here to post his whines and not argue logically. Take for example the lack of concrete recent examples of Cuban "complaining" to the NBA officials about the officiating.

concrete? well gee..oh wait he just sent in tapes regarding Yoa and Dikembe..how's that for a recent concrete example? let me guess you want me to give you more examples?

RocketsRule
05-04-2005, 01:44 PM
Get over it. Mavs whine just as much as the Rockets. Our owner has set the blue print on how to whine and complain. I for one will not be surprise if there is a game seven. I just want to win fair and square not with gimicks.

LRB
05-04-2005, 01:46 PM
so you are ignoring my premise. CUBAN'S ACT GETS OLD. No not every owner needs to sit right next to the bench. they do not feel the need to interject themselves in to the game. I would never say Teams don't complain. I said Cuban gets over board and under that premise I said no other team goes that far. how's that for logic LRB? Are you able to follow along..It's very important to understand the premise of a 'logical' argument. You can change the premise to bolster a wek argument..hence see mary's argument..


So give specific examples of how Cuban's approach is overboard as compared to most NBA teams. You're throwing around a bunch of big fat generalities and then nit picking the hell out of arguments that the spurs are doing the same. Are you saying that if Cuban hired me to do the same thing he does that it would be OK since I'm not an owner? Do you even know how many times Mark has contacted the lead about bad calls in the past 2 months? Do you know what the NBA average is for teams contacting the league over the last 2 months? How about playoff teams? What types of contact are you alledging that Cuban had with the NBA and what are your sources.

So far, I follow along quite well. You're spouting a bunch of BS whinning couched in vague generalities. Sounds like a case of owner envy.

dude1394
05-04-2005, 01:46 PM
Thanks one post rocket troll whiner for the advice.

You really don't want to win fair and square, you want the refs to give you some sort of special break, since they are AGAINST YOU, against houston, against van gundy, against poor yao.... boo hoo hoo.

Phil Helmuth
05-04-2005, 01:47 PM
http://img108.echo.cx/img108/1478/rocketsoffseason3jg.jpg

mary
05-04-2005, 01:47 PM
I would never say Teams don't complain

You specifically said the "San Antonio Spurs" don't complain. I quoted you numerous times.

Specifically, how do you think Cuban goes too far? By sending tape? By provided the leauge with documentation of his complaints? By keepin "ref" stats? Do you think any of these things are "going too far"?

Are you dim enough to think that because Cuban overexposes himself to the media, he's the only owner to use these tactics??????????????????????????????????

LRB
05-04-2005, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: LRB
Forget it Mary, he's obviously here to post his whines and not argue logically. Take for example the lack of concrete recent examples of Cuban "complaining" to the NBA officials about the officiating.

concrete? well gee..oh wait he just sent in tapes regarding Yoa and Dikembe..how's that for a recent concrete example? let me guess you want me to give you more examples?

So you're saying that no other NBA team has sent in tapes? Is that what you are alledging? Mark is going too far by documenting his complaints, instead of making up imaginary anonymous and/or secret sources like JVG. Because Mark doesn't hide in vague generalities, he's gone too far.

razap
05-04-2005, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

so you are ignoring my premise. CUBAN'S ACT GETS OLD. No not every owner needs to sit right next to the bench. they do not feel the need to interject themselves in to the game. I would never say Teams don't complain. I said Cuban gets over board and under that premise I said no other team goes that far. how's that for logic LRB? Are you able to follow along..It's very important to understand the premise of a 'logical' argument. You can change the premise to bolster a wek argument..hence see mary's argument..


So give specific examples of how Cuban's approach is overboard as compared to most NBA teams. You're throwing around a bunch of big fat generalities and then nit picking the hell out of arguments that the spurs are doing the same. Are you saying that if Cuban hired me to do the same thing he does that it would be OK since I'm not an owner? Do you even know how many times Mark has contacted the lead about bad calls in the past 2 months? Do you know what the NBA average is for teams contacting the league over the last 2 months? How about playoff teams? What types of contact are you alledging that Cuban had with the NBA and what are your sources.

So far, I follow along quite well. You're spouting a bunch of BS whinning couched in vague generalities. Sounds like a case of owner envy.


owner envy? seriously? ok I will play why would I be envious of the Maverick owner? Now I am envious he owns a team, I am envious he gets to sit next to the bench, i am envious he travels with the team. I am envious that he gets to see every game in person..but I am not envious of him as an owner. I would be embarassed of him as the owner of my favorite team..I would want him to just shut up.

razap
05-04-2005, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: LRB
Forget it Mary, he's obviously here to post his whines and not argue logically. Take for example the lack of concrete recent examples of Cuban "complaining" to the NBA officials about the officiating.

concrete? well gee..oh wait he just sent in tapes regarding Yoa and Dikembe..how's that for a recent concrete example? let me guess you want me to give you more examples?

So you're saying that no other NBA team has sent in tapes? Is that what you are alledging? Mark is going too far by documenting his complaints, instead of making up imaginary anonymous and/or secret sources like JVG. Because Mark doesn't hide in vague generalities, he's gone too far.



how many times is enough? this guy has a history of doing this ..not a couple of times but many times..

mary
05-04-2005, 01:57 PM
how many times is enough? this guy has a history of doing this ..not a couple of times but many times..

How many times razap? Since you seem to know, enlighten the rest of us. Also, you can tell us how many times other owners have sent in tape. You seem to know that too - since you believe Cuban is the one that is going too far.

Do you have a number in mind?

LRB
05-04-2005, 01:58 PM
how many times is enough? this guy has a history of doing this ..not a couple of times but many times..

Vague and general without really saying anything except that you supposedly don't like Cuban. Hey if you don't like Cubes, more power to you. But you're still have yet to make a case about what Cuban has been doing with the NBA that in unethical and that is soooo out of whack with what other teams do in regards to protesting the officiating. It's been at least a couple of years since Mark even drew a decent size fine for complaining. In fact the whole trend has been Mark turning down his public negative comments about the officiating. So outside of going back a few years to where Mark was in a dairy queen making fun of the NBA head of officiating what do you have except a bunch of inuendo and opinion?

Pirate
05-04-2005, 02:16 PM
When he began as an owner, Cuban vocally complained to the NBA about the general level of competency of the refs, in hopes of getting things improved. He did it publicly because he wasnt getting a response with his private complaints - and got fined. The result? The NBA behind the scenes started training and grading their refs in ways they hadnt done before, and finally made the effort to improve the reffing. Cuban took the public hit, but he helped improve the league - in my opinion, it is all GOOD.

Once the NBA instituted those changes to evaluate and hold refs accountable and to train and improve, Cuban has backed off and does about the same things as any other owner. If he has a problem, he sends in videos - which is exactly what they all do. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot and doesnt recognize the facts..

David Stern, when asked on ESPN on 5/2 if Cuban had gone over the line in complaining about Yao Ming: "No no no. We have teams call us all the time, complain regularly about the way we call games. We tell them to send footage, send tapes, come in and talk - including Houston, coming to complain about the fact that Yao Ming is hit too hard. So that's standard operating procedure, and that part is not a bad thing."

Rockets34Life
05-04-2005, 03:26 PM
http://img191.echo.cx/img191/8443/newclutch8ov.jpg

Phil Helmuth
05-04-2005, 03:28 PM
rockets suck ass. 1 day left in your miserable season.

dude1394
05-04-2005, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by: LRB

how many times is enough? this guy has a history of doing this ..not a couple of times but many times..

Vague and general without really saying anything except that you supposedly don't like Cuban. Hey if you don't like Cubes, more power to you. But you're still have yet to make a case about what Cuban has been doing with the NBA that in unethical and that is soooo out of whack with what other teams do in regards to protesting the officiating. It's been at least a couple of years since Mark even drew a decent size fine for complaining. In fact the whole trend has been Mark turning down his public negative comments about the officiating. So outside of going back a few years to where Mark was in a dairy queen making fun of the NBA head of officiating what do you have except a bunch of inuendo and opinion?

What's pathetic is that he won't just let it lie. Somehow he has to keep coming back with more generalities because he's got nothing more than his dislike of cubes. Okay, you dislike cubes, well stand in line fella, there are plenty on this board who don't like cubes.

But don't (sort of like van gundy) come on here and talk like you have any data to back you up and then KEEP ON POSTING about it. Either bring something to the table or just admit you hate cubes and that's the way you feel.

dude1394
05-04-2005, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by: Rockets34Life
http://img191.echo.cx/img191/8443/newclutch8ov.jpg

Man look at the set on cubes. If the rockets players had half the set that guy did, they'd be getting ready for round two.

Rockets34Life
05-04-2005, 04:57 PM
<try to be a little classier>

EricaLubarsky
05-04-2005, 04:58 PM
how mature i/expressions/anim_roller.gif

kingrex
05-04-2005, 05:59 PM
At what point did this forum devolve into a trash-talk forum? Geesh (on both sides).

mary
05-09-2005, 08:12 PM
This isn't relevant to the Mavs anymore, but here's an update. Apparently, JVG LIED about having contact with a ref. Or he's lying now so he won't get in anymore trouble. Stern is dropping the matter.



NBA Statement Regarding Houston Rockets Coach Jeff Van Gundy
NEW YORK, May 9 – NBA Deputy Commissioner Russ Granik today issued the following statement in regard to Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy:

“Over this past weekend, Coach Van Gundy publicly apologized for his comments last week suggesting bias in the league’s refereeing relating to Yao Ming. He has also confirmed directly to an NBA representative that, during the Houston/Dallas playoff series, he did not have any communication with a referee (working or non-working) other than, of course, during an ongoing game. In fact, his only conversations with league employees during the series were with league personnel in the normal course. In light of these circumstances, we now consider the matter to be closed.”

dude1394
05-09-2005, 08:14 PM
So van gundy decides to call the company he works for biased, cheaters with no integrity, just so he can get a little edge and not have to actually out-coach or out-play someone. Tool.

ocelot_ark
05-09-2005, 09:23 PM
What a dork. Are we sure that Barry's dad is Rick, and not JVG?