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Steve13
05-06-2005, 09:21 AM
Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
May. 6, 2005 12:00 AM

Steve Nash and the MVP trophy apparently have a date.

The NBA announced Thursday that the announcement of the Most Valuable Player, the NBA's 50th, will be Sunday. That could mean the Suns point guard has won a tight race with Miami center Shaquille O'Neal.

Here's why: The NBA announced the previous five MVPs when the winning players were idle, and on a day before each had a playoff game.

The Suns are expected to start their second-round series Monday. Miami is slotted for a Sunday start to its second-round series if Washington closes its series with Chicago today.

If O'Neal is playing in Sunday's ABC game, it seems unlikely he would be the subject of the MVP halftime interview that ABC is promoting.

The last MVP to not receive the award a day before a playoff game was Utah's Karl Malone in 1999, when the Jazz were already eliminated.

An Arizona Republic survey of 106 of the 127 MVP voters showed Nash with an 895-883 lead over O'Neal in total points. Nash received 53 first-place votes to O'Neal's 51. Phoenix's Amaré Stoudemire and San Antonio's Tim Duncan received the other two.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...unsmvp0506.html


GO STEVE

If we win game 7, i can't wait to see the hype the series will get with cuban and nash after nash gets the MVP

Drbio
05-06-2005, 09:36 AM
Steve Nash can suck it.

sike
05-06-2005, 10:11 AM
good for Steve....he can indeed suck it.

u2sarajevo
05-06-2005, 10:17 AM
Congratulations Steve!!!!!!


suck it

kingrex
05-06-2005, 10:40 AM
Shaq is always a potential MVP, but this year Steve has brought his team from furthest away. He is the MVP this year.

capitalcity
05-06-2005, 11:11 AM
Anybody want to buy my old Nash jersey? Other than the ass-wipe stains it's in excellet condition.

Asking Price: $Loyalty.

kingrex
05-06-2005, 11:12 AM
^giggle i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

madape
05-06-2005, 11:25 AM
Nash wasn't worth the money


... yeah right

kingrex
05-06-2005, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by: madape
Nash wasn't worth the money


... yeah right

He would have been this year and next year, but the decision not to sign Nash was for years 3 through 6 of the contract he wanted.

seal614
05-06-2005, 11:56 AM
Steve isn't MVP if he had stayed here.

Everyone keeps thinking that the Mavs would play D and Dirk would go to the rack regularly AND Steve would be getting 12assists. None of it.

madape
05-06-2005, 12:08 PM
Hey, we may have let the league MVP and the heart and soul of our team walk for a few million bucks... but at least we were able to use the money we otherwise would have given him on something we needed even more..

Erick Dampier is without a doubt the best center in the west and has proven to be the missing link in our playoff run. Cheers to Cuban for making such a bold move!

chumdawg
05-06-2005, 12:08 PM
Off the top of my head I'm not sure the answer to this...

Has there been another two-time All-Star whose team declined to re-sign him in free agency, who in the first year with his new team won the MVP?

madape
05-06-2005, 12:10 PM
chumdawg, no. Beleive it or not, this has never happened before. But losing NBA MVPs for nothing is how teams win championships. Trust me on this one.

capitalcity
05-06-2005, 04:17 PM
Cash better hope the Suns don't pull the Heat in the Finals. The Diesel will have the perfect stage to prove once and for all who's the most valuable player.

vjz
05-06-2005, 04:18 PM
Marc Stein is reporting that Nash will be named the NBA's Most Valuable Player on Sunday:

Nash third point guard in 40-plus years to win MVP (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2005/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2054677)

Phoenix Suns guard Steve Nash will be awarded the NBA's Most Valuable Player on Sunday, sources say.

Nash has edged Miami center Shaquille O'Neal to become just the third point guard in 40-plus years to win the league's highest individual honor, according to sources familiar with the results. The others are Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson.

The official announcement will come at halftime of ABC's 3 p.m. ET playoff game.

O'Neal, three times an NBA Finals MVP, has won the regular-season MVP trophy just once in his 13 seasons. Apparently tipping this vote in Nash's favor was the Suns' 33-game improvement -- from 29 wins to a league-leading 62 wins -- after signing Nash away from the Dallas Mavericks in the offseason.

Nash's previous best MVP showing was 14th place in 2002.

With Nash flanked by the athletic finishing of fellow All-Stars Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion, Phoenix became just the second team in NBA annals to win at least 60 games after a 50-loss season. The first? The Boston Celtics in Larry Bird's rookie season of 1979-80.

But Nash is defying history to beat out O'Neal, and not simply because he had only one scholarship offer from a Division I university -- Santa Clara -- as a slight Canadian teen-ager in British Columbia.

Allen Iverson, the NBA's 2001 MVP as a shooting guard, is the only player shorter than 6-foot-6 in the past four decades to win the award. Nash also becomes the first MVP since Portland's Bill Walton in 1978 to average less than 20 points per game. His 15.5-point scoring average for the Suns is the third-lowest all-time for an MVP, ahead of only Washington's Wes Unseld (13.8 ppg in 1969) and Boston's Bill Russell (14.1 ppg in 1965).

Nash, though, did lead the league in assists (11.5 apg) by a wide margin for a Suns team that averaged a league-leading 110 points per game.

Phoenix swept Memphis 4-0 in a first-round series and awaits the Dallas-Houston winner in the second round, raising the possibility of an emotional series against the team he left last summer.

mary
05-06-2005, 05:00 PM
Worst defensive MVP ever?

Speedy
05-06-2005, 05:05 PM
What I think about the situation:

I believe Cuban once said that he woud not lose a player over money.... he lied.
Nash took the extra millions.... I don't blame him.

The reality of the situation:

Cuban is currently the owner of my favorite team.
Nash now plays for the enemy.

The conclusion of the situation:

Nash can suck it.

mary
05-06-2005, 05:15 PM
I will reserve this one day to give a heart-felt congratulations to Steve Nash. At one time, I was a huge fan and loved watching Nash play balls to the wall. His style of play is incredibly entertaining and his wrap around passes underneath the basket are just damned beautiful - not to mention is tear drop, his circus shots and his sweet perimeter shooting. So for this one day, I will give Steve Nash his due and say "Congratulations, the NBA is better with you in it."

But after midnight, he can go back to sucking it.

jibikao
05-06-2005, 06:00 PM
I guess the tension between Mavs fans and Nash will get bigger and bigger if Mavs took Game 7.

I was quite disappointed that Mavs lost in Game 6..big loss too.

Hopefully Mavs shows up in Game 7. We'll be waiting for ya. i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

ocelot_ark
05-06-2005, 06:26 PM
Guess who would not have been an MVP had he stayed in Dallas? Guess who would have averaged his stagnant 15 pts and 7-8 assists?

Phoenix is a better fit for Nash. That's it. End of story.

MAVSWIN
05-06-2005, 08:10 PM
I hope Dampier shows it to tommorrow cause he has been stinking it lately! Thats what happens for being on a sorry team for so long. Come with it. He seems to fumble the ball and get into foul trouble a lot. Get crunk Dallas!

mavsfanforever
05-06-2005, 08:25 PM
Congrats Nash. I still like Nash.

Dirkenstien
05-06-2005, 08:47 PM
Congrats Nash, ..regardless of my personal feelings towards you leaving, winning the MVP is one heck of an achievement.

Here's to hoping we beat Houston tomorrow and blast through Pheonix.

I'm predicting pretty high ratings for that match-up

DNNF
05-06-2005, 10:33 PM
congrat, but he still can suck it. no way i would pay him more then 3 years. he's glad that he's on the phoenix run and gun team. otherwise, he aint' gonna be mvp

The Miles
05-07-2005, 01:01 AM
Glad he is gone, we won 1 game last year against an inferior team with him leading us and having 4 bad games and one good game.

We are 3-3 with Damp and won 58 games, I like our team without him.

mary
05-07-2005, 01:27 AM
Times up.

Nash can suck it.

chumdawg
05-07-2005, 02:55 AM
Congrats to Nashty. Very well deserved. The "suck it" posters on this board embarrass me. These are people who get dumped by their boyfriend or girlfriend, or get served papers by their wives, and justify it by saying that they weren't that great anyway. Oh...and then they live the rest of their lives in a pitiful, jaded and cynical solitude. May you find some peace, all of you, one way or another.

Mark Cuban is about two playoff series away from being the most laughable, the most self-defeating, owner in pro sports since the guy who traded Ruth.

I'm not kidding about that, either. This is something Cuban will never live down. The guy can make a lot of money in technology industry. But he shoulda better known better, and left the basketball decisions to the basketball people. He is the Jerry Jones of eight years ago--only less capable.

rabbitproof
05-07-2005, 03:32 AM
Good on ya, Steve, and congratulations!

Nash is worth what he's paid to Phoenix - not to Dallas.

Things happened as they should have.

Speedy
05-07-2005, 09:57 AM
Chum, it's a little early to be making those assumptions. You may be right or you may be wrong. If it turns out you are right, is that going to change things?

Right or wrong, Nash is not a Maverick anymore. You can cry as much as you want, but that's not going to change. He is playing for a team that the Mavs will be playing against if they make it into round 2.

I'm sorry, but I won't be sitting back watching Nash trying to beat our Mavs and wondering why o' why. It doesn't mean I don't like Nash, it just means I love the Mavs regardless of the owner or roster.

Nash can suck it.

chumdawg
05-07-2005, 10:20 AM
Yes, it's early yet. We'll see how it plays out.

But there is no sense in completely ignoring the past. We all need to learn from our mistakes, lest we repeat them.

jthig32
05-07-2005, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
Congrats to Nashty. Very well deserved. The "suck it" posters on this board embarrass me. These are people who get dumped by their boyfriend or girlfriend, or get served papers by their wives, and justify it by saying that they weren't that great anyway. Oh...and then they live the rest of their lives in a pitiful, jaded and cynical solitude. May you find some peace, all of you, one way or another.

Mark Cuban is about two playoff series away from being the most laughable, the most self-defeating, owner in pro sports since the guy who traded Ruth.

I'm not kidding about that, either. This is something Cuban will never live down. The guy can make a lot of money in technology industry. But he shoulda better known better, and left the basketball decisions to the basketball people. He is the Jerry Jones of eight years ago--only less capable.

Babe Ruth??? Are you high???

Babe Ruth is unquestionably one of the greatest baseball players ever.

Steve Nash is a three time all star NBA player. He's freaking Terrell Brandon. He's a player that has peaked very nicely and has had a nice three year run. He might even continue it another year or two.

I don't understand how intelligent people, like Chum, can continue to roast Cuban for this until we see the length of the contract played out. If Nash is still all-star quality in 5 years it was a terrible decision. But the odds are squarly against that.

Besides, this playoff series not-withstanding, give me Damp with Devin running the point in the next few years over Nash anyway.

mary
05-07-2005, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
Congrats to Nashty. Very well deserved. The "suck it" posters on this board embarrass me. These are people who get dumped by their boyfriend or girlfriend, or get served papers by their wives, and justify it by saying that they weren't that great anyway. Oh...and then they live the rest of their lives in a pitiful, jaded and cynical solitude. May you find some peace, all of you, one way or another.


Thanks for the misguided sermon Chum.

capitalcity
05-07-2005, 11:59 AM
Chum don't stick up for money-grubbing Canadians. It's beneath you.

chumdawg
05-07-2005, 12:27 PM
Mary, rest assured that the misanthropic vitriol is equally appreciated, and far more misguided.

JT, I didn't mean to equate Nash with Ruth. I meant to say that Cuban made one of the worst moves by an owner since the guy who traded Ruth. Certainly there's some hyperbole there...but I'm not exactly sure how much.

What I don't understand is why intelligent people continue to analyze Cuban's decision in terms of a couple seasons five years from now, seemingly ignoring the immediate four or five years. (Remember that Cuban first wanted to extend Nash for six additional seasons, then when it came to free agency wanted to sign him for five, with the fifth only partly guaranteed.) So if he's the MVP this year, an All-Star this year and probably at least a couple more, but five years from now is Darrell Armstrong, or Steve Kerr, or even TAW...on the balance we were better off not having him?

I don't get it at all. Not on that basis. It just doesn't fly. Trading success in the first several years for flexibility five years down the road makes absolutely zero sense.

The only argument that makes any sense is that one would think we are better off without Nash THIS year. And next year. And the year after. And the year after that. Whoever believed that is, in my opinion, a bit delusional.

chumdawg
05-07-2005, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by: capitalcity
Chum don't stick up for money-grubbing Canadians. It's beneath you.Cap, I do indeed believe that someone put money before loyalty--or even good sense. But I don't think Nash was that guy.

Why doesn't anyone call Cuban the money grubber? He's the guy who wanted to get something for less than market value, and screwed the fans when he couldn't. Why doesn't anyone call Cuban disloyal? Nash probably played at below market value for at least a couple seasons here, without saying a word. Cuban didn't think that was worth ten million bucks or so over fix or six years.

madape
05-07-2005, 01:03 PM
The two best teams in the NBA are both led by MVP players that their former teams' didn't want. If the heat play the Suns in the finals, expact a lot of ridicule to be pointed towards Cuban.

If the Suns win the title, Cuban should sell the team.

Misfit Mav
05-07-2005, 01:05 PM
Completely leaving aside my feelings on Nash and the Mavs for a moment, I don't think his season merits the MVP trophy. I know there was a big jump in the Suns record, but there have been many better seasons by point guards and none have won the trophy. I think it's a little lame that Gary Payton, Jason Kidd and John Stockton never won it but Nash has now. 11 assists per is really good, but Kidd's done that with much better overall numbers, great d, and just as big a boost in his teams record (when he went to the Nets.) Stockton of course average 13, 14 assists for several seasons. Oh, well, I guess there wasn't as much competition this year.

jayC
05-07-2005, 03:34 PM
Nash owes everything to the mavs. Nellie and the mavs taught him how to run and gun and know the Suns are running and gunning. The Suns have won nothing yet. I like regular season awards but playoff hardware means much more.

Devin Harris will be better then nash in a few years. Good for nash, but the playoff run isn't over for the mavs.

sike
05-07-2005, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by: mary
Worst defensive MVP ever?
worst MVP ever???

dirno2000
05-07-2005, 07:03 PM
The only argument that makes any sense is that one would think we are better off without Nash THIS year. And next year. And the year after. And the year after that. Whoever believed that is, in my opinion, a bit delusional.Mr. Delusional here…actually I do think we’d be a better team with Nash, but I consider Nash and Damp to be mutually exclusive. That being said, I’d rather have an ordinary Damp than Nash. I love Steve, but I’ve watched Mike Bibby drag him up and down the floor enough to convince me that the team as it was constructed wasn’t going to get it done. We’d seen his best and it wasn’t good enough. I’m glad that he won the MVP, but there’s not a chance in hell that he wins it here. If you believe that then you believe that a team with Nash at the point and Bradley at center would have won more games than the Spurs…I personally don’t. You have to go back further than I care to find an MVP whose team finished 4th in the conference. Plus the athletic Suns allowed Steve so showcase his skills in ways he never could in Dallas…it was the perfect fit.

I agree with you on one thing…I’ll never understand the Nash vitriol that’s spewed around here. People like the throw around the term loyalty, but that works both ways. Where was Cuban’s loyalty to Nash for playing out a contract that was under market value and never complaining? When given a chance to compensate Nash at the market rate (set by the Suns) Cuban balked. Honestly I would have done the same, but I don’t fault Nash for going after the money either. He showed the Mavs more courtesy then he had to by giving Cuban a chance to match…after that his responsibility was to himself and his family.

Thespiralgoeson
05-07-2005, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by: sike

Originally posted by: mary
Worst defensive MVP ever?
worst MVP ever???

I'm inclined to agree there, Sike.

Steve13
05-07-2005, 10:44 PM
who cares if he is

he has been the best player this year and thats what counts.

#41
05-07-2005, 11:33 PM
Congrats, Steve! I'm sorry, we're gonna stop you on your way to the finals soon!

sike
05-08-2005, 01:26 AM
he has been the best player this year and thats what counts.
I disagree that Nash was the best player in the NBA this year.

LJ, Dirk, T-mac, AI, Shaq, all had better years...Nash just happend to be the final piece in making PHX a dynamic team....

Thespiralgoeson
05-08-2005, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by: sike

he has been the best player this year and thats what counts.
I disagree that Nash was the best player in the NBA this year.

LJ, Dirk, T-mac, AI, Shaq, all had better years...Nash just happend to be the final piece in making PHX a dynamic team....

Players that were better than Nash this year, and every other year for that matter:

Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, Ray Allen, Dwayne Wade, SHAWN MARION, AMARE STOUDEMIRE, Jermaine O'Neal.... and that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more.

chumdawg
05-08-2005, 02:21 AM
Originally posted by: dirno2000

The only argument that makes any sense is that one would think we are better off without Nash THIS year. And next year. And the year after. And the year after that. Whoever believed that is, in my opinion, a bit delusional.Mr. Delusional here…actually I do think we’d be a better team with Nash, but I consider Nash and Damp to be mutually exclusive. That being said, I’d rather have an ordinary Damp than Nash. I love Steve, but I’ve watched Mike Bibby drag him up and down the floor enough to convince me that the team as it was constructed wasn’t going to get it done. We’d seen his best and it wasn’t good enough. I’m glad that he won the MVP, but there’s not a chance in hell that he wins it here. If you believe that then you believe that a team with Nash at the point and Bradley at center would have won more games than the Spurs…I personally don’t. You have to go back further than I care to find an MVP whose team finished 4th in the conference. Plus the athletic Suns allowed Steve so showcase his skills in ways he never could in Dallas…it was the perfect fit.

I agree with you on one thing…I’ll never understand the Nash vitriol that’s spewed around here. People like the throw around the term loyalty, but that works both ways. Where was Cuban’s loyalty to Nash for playing out a contract that was under market value and never complaining? When given a chance to compensate Nash at the market rate (set by the Suns) Cuban balked. Honestly I would have done the same, but I don’t fault Nash for going after the money either. He showed the Mavs more courtesy then he had to by giving Cuban a chance to match…after that his responsibility was to himself and his family.D2K, you and I are of fairly like minds on this issue. I must say that it is refreshing to hear someone assess the situation in an apparently unbiased (unjilted?) fashion.

I of course agree that Nash would never, ever, ever have won an MVP if he'd stayed in Dallas. Two things to note, though. The first is minor. We actually finished third in the conference. The second is major. We'd have--I'm sure you will be inclined to agree--finished no worse than second in the conference if Nash had played this season in Dallas rather than in Phoenix. To me, that is the most important element of these talks, and one that people are all too quick to dismiss (or ignore).

Big Boy Laroux
05-08-2005, 02:45 AM
since we love race topics here (wink, wink, doc...)

would nash have won the mvp if he weren't white?

discuss.

FreshJive
05-08-2005, 02:46 AM
I think its quite possible that Dirk would have won the MVP this year had we retained Nash.

capitalcity
05-08-2005, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by: Big Boy Laroux
since we love race topics here (wink, wink, doc...)

would nash have won the mvp if he weren't white?

discuss. no.

Misfit Mav
05-08-2005, 03:22 AM
I don't know about the race thing. There was some talk that Dave Cowens only got the MVP because he was white. Although if that was a factor, I'd actually think Dirk would get more consideration than he typically does. Or how about Stockton? But I'm not a mind-reader so I have no idea. Social factors do affect these kinds of things, and so I would suspect race would matter in some way.

Misfit Mav
05-08-2005, 03:25 AM
Another question: did Tim Duncan win two MVP's simply because he's white? Sorry, lousy joke i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif

Misfit Mav
05-08-2005, 03:31 AM
Here's the MVP list from it inception in '56. I would say that only Wes Unseld and Dave Cowens could be considered comparable to Steve Nash. Only Bill Russell, Bill Walton, and Wes Unseld score under 20 per game on the list.

Bob Pettit, StL
Bob Cousy, Bos
Bill Russell, Bos
Bob Pettit, StL
Wilt Chamberlain, Phil
Bill Russell, Bos
Bill Russell, Bos
Bill Russell, Bos
Oscar Robertson, Cin
Bill Russell, Bos
Wilt Chamberlain, Phil
Wilt Chamberlain, Phil
Wilt Chamberlain, Phil
Wes Unseld, Balt
Willis Reed, NY
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mil
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mil
Dave Cowens, Bos
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Mil
Bob McAdoo, Buff
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LA
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LA
Bill Walton, Port
Moses Malone, Hou
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LA
Julius Erving, Phil
Moses Malone, Hou
Moses Malone, Phil
Larry Bird, Bos
Larry Bird, Bos
Larry Bird, Bos
Magic Johnson, LA Lakers
Michael Jordan, Chi
Magic Johnson, LA Lakers
Magic Johnson, LA Lakers
Michael Jordan, Chi
Michael Jordan, Chi
Charles Barkley, Phoe
Hakeem Olajuwon, Hou
David Robinson, SA
Michael Jordan, Chi
Karl Malone, Utah
Michael Jordan, Chi
Karl Malone, Utah
Shaquille O'Neal
Allen Iverson
Tim Duncan
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Steve Nash

poohrichardson
05-08-2005, 04:19 AM
Man, does all of this "worst MVP ever" stuff show how bitter you guys are... give the man his due: he turned a losing franchise into a winner.. helped create a new offensive force in the league (Stoudemire), and was the quarterback of the most entertaining AND most successful team in the league this season.. why not just give him his due and get over the fact that this year wasn't Dirk's year?

Thespiralgoeson
05-08-2005, 04:38 AM
Uh, poorichardson, this has nothing to do with being bitter. I honestly think that Nash is in fact the worst MVP ever. The guy can't defend, can't rebound, doesn't score that much... All he does is dish out assists on a team full of scorers. Nash didn't turn Phoenix into a contender by himself. People don't seem to remember that Phoenix did not have a point guard AT ALL last year. In 2003, with Marbury (who is a loser) at the helm, and Amare just a rookie, they made the playoffs. They would've done it again last year too, but they traded Marbury to New York, and had nobody orchestrating the offense. All they needed was a good pure passer to run the point. That team was going to become winner. Honestly, they had so much young, atheletic, extremely talented players it's ridiculous. If he were on any other team, he'd still be considered a good but not great player, and would probably be averaging about 7 assists at best. Nash went to that team and it became a contender. Shaq can go to ANY team and make it a contender. The players that have won MVP the past few years: Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Allen Iverson, Karl Malone, Michael Jordan..... A few other players that have been named MVP: Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russel..... Sorry man, but it has nothing to do with being "bitter." Nash IS the worst MVP ever.

Thespiralgoeson
05-08-2005, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by: poohrichardsonwhy not just give him his due and get over the fact that this year wasn't Dirk's year?

I didn't think it was Dirk's year either. I thought it was Shaq's year. But I will say that Dirk can at least say that he's the best player on his team. At very best, Nash is the third best player on his team.

poohrichardson
05-08-2005, 11:09 AM
I'm definitely going to disagree on Nash being the third best player on his team.. Stoudemire was definitely an average player until this season.. and Nash is a bigger difference-maker for the Suns than is Marion..

FINtastic
05-08-2005, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by: poohrichardson
I'm definitely going to disagree on Nash being the third best player on his team.. Stoudemire was definitely an average player until this season.. and Nash is a bigger difference-maker for the Suns than is Marion..

Stoudemire averaged 20 and 9 last year, hardly average. Not to mention, this is only his third year in the league, and he was a mere 21 years old when the season started. He was bound to improve significantly, whether he had Nash passing him the ball or not.

I'm going to say, along with a couple of other people on this board that Steve "Take the Cash and Dash" Nash, is the sparest MVP ever. The fact that he has now won the MVP as many times as Shaq is simply laughable.

Epitome22
05-08-2005, 12:02 PM
It would be laughable if Nash had won more than one MVP but he hasn't. That has much more to do with how the league has treated Shaq than how it has treated Nash.

MVP awards have a great deal of intangibe and arbitrary factors in them, and my pure statistical plus/minus analysis, there were about 5 other players who deserved the award more than Nash (including Dirk) but Nash was by far the most effective player on his team and when you combine a career year with leading a team to the best record in Basketball, I have no qualms.


Steve Nash: Stand up guy, good character, team leader, MVP

Mavs fans: bitter, vitirolic, juvenile and disappointing.

FINtastic
05-08-2005, 12:45 PM
It's laughable that he has even won one. The fact that point guards who were much better than him like Kidd and Stockton have less MVP awards than him is laughable. Look through the long history of all the winners of the MVP award. Nash doesn't even hold a candle to most of the people on that list.

The only thing disappointing in my opinion is we live in an age where people put an overexcessive amount of money over loyalty to friends and fans. That's pretty juvenile in my opinion.

chumdawg
05-08-2005, 02:07 PM
All he does is dish out assists on a team full of scorers.And all Chris Carter ever did was catch touchdowns.

sike
05-08-2005, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by: chumdawg

All he does is dish out assists on a team full of scorers.And all Chris Carter ever did was catch touchdowns.

not a fair comparison...


pooh said: "Man, does all of this "worst MVP ever" stuff show how bitter you guys are"
sike said: "don't be a tool"

15 and 11 are very nice stats....very good personal numbers...but they are no where near great. Nash is what he is: an amazing offensive point guard. But his status as a liability on the defensive end will forever disqualify in my book as being considered the best player in the league. Like I said before, Nash = right piece, right time.

If the award is being given to him because of his impact to the Suns, I have little problem with it....but I do still ask for someone to show me a worse MVP.

Thespiralgoeson
05-08-2005, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by: Epitome22

Mavs fans: bitter, vitirolic, juvenile and disappointing.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I can say that if Nash still played for Dallas, and he were MVP, I would still believe that he was the worst MVP ever.

mary
05-08-2005, 06:49 PM
This is my formal request for a list of former MVP's that are NOT CLEARLY BETTER BASKETBALL PLAYERS than Steve Nash.

1955-56 - Bob Pettit, St. Louis
1956-57 - Bob Cousy, Boston
1957-58 - Bill Russell, Boston
1958-59 - Bob Pettit, St. Louis
1959-60 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia
1960-61 - Bill Russell, Boston
1961-62 - Bill Russell, Boston
1962-63 - Bill Russell, Boston
1963-64 - Oscar Robertson, Cincinnati
1964-65 - Bill Russell, Boston
1965-66 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia
1966-67 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia
1967-68 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia
1968-69 - Wes Unseld, Baltimore
1969-70 - Willis Reed, New York
1970-71 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Milwaukee
1971-72 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Milwaukee
1972-73 - Dave Cowens, Boston
1973-74 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Milwaukee
1974-75 - Bob McAdoo, Buffalo
1975-76 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Los Angeles
1976-77 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Los Angeles
1977-78 - Bill Walton, Portland
1978-79 - Moses Malone, Houston
1979-80 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Los Angeles
1980-81 - Julius Erving, Philadelphia
1981-82 - Moses Malone, Houston
1982-83 - Moses Malone, Philadelphia
1983-84 - Larry Bird, Boston
1984-85 - Larry Bird, Boston
1985-86 - Larry Bird, Boston
1986-87 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers
1987-88 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1988-89 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers
1989-90 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles Lakers
1990-91 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1991-92 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1992-93 - Charles Barkley, Phoenix
1993-94 - Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
1994-95 - David Robinson, San Antonio
1995-96 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1996-97 - Karl Malone, Utah
1997-98 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1998-99 - Karl Malone, Utah
1999-00 - Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles Lakers
2001-02 - Tim Duncan, San Antonio
2002-03 - Tim Duncan, San Antonio
2003-04 - Kevin Garnett, Minnesota



Take your time.

Because simply claiming that a dissenting poster is "bitter" is not a very good argument.

sike
05-08-2005, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by: Thespiralgoeson

Originally posted by: Epitome22

Mavs fans: bitter, vitirolic, juvenile and disappointing.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I can say that if Nash still played for Dallas, and he were MVP, I would still believe that he was the worst MVP ever.

bingo bango....

twelli
05-08-2005, 09:50 PM
Congratulations to Steve for his achievements this season.

I don't blame Steve for changing teams. That's the NBA for heaven's sake. It's a business. Players get traded all the time if they like it or not. The Patrick Ewings and Gary Paytons get traded. Players have the same right to choose their team as the teams have the right to choose their players. There is no betrayal, just business decisions. If the right deal comes up, Cuban (despite all of his affection for his players) trades Nash to Atlanta, no doubt about it. So what's the big deal. You all, get over it. Let's play ball!

On a personal level, if my best friend leaves me and becomes my rival, than I want him to suck it too, but then, I'm not Dirk.

I wish Steve the best, but not against the Mavs.

MavKikiNYC
05-08-2005, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by: mary
This is my formal request for a list of former MVP's that are NOT CLEARLY BETTER BASKETBALL PLAYERS than Steve Nash.

Take your time.

Because simply claiming that a dissenting poster is "bitter" is not a very good argument.


I'd go with Bill Walton.

4cwebb
05-08-2005, 10:23 PM
Nash wins this year's MVP b/c he helped lead the rejuvenation of the Suns, not to mention propped up guys' stats like Amare and Marion (Marion has shown us before that he can't play in this league on his own --- he needs to be teamed with an All Star type PG to be truly effective), AND a) Shaq had one of his worst statistical years of his career, b) Dirk's team couldn't win it's own division, c) Duncan was injured for 20 games or so, d) AI's team barely made the playoffs, and e) neither KG's team nor Lebron's team even made the playoffs.

There it is, plain and simple. When Stockton was having his great years, he was competing with guys with far superior numbers (guys who would have each won the MVP this year with similar numbers) on teams with the same or superior records. Just the times in which Stockton played. Can't do anything about that now.

Epitome22
05-08-2005, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by: FINtastic
It's laughable that he has even won one.

Based on?





The fact that point guards who were much better than him like Kidd and Stockton have less MVP awards than him is laughable.

I don't see what's so 'laughable' about it (you might think about employing another adjective besides 'laughable') Kidd is great and Stockton was great, but Stockton played during the same era as Jordan and Olajuwon and on the same team as Malone so he caught a tough break. The same with Kidd playing at the same time as Garnett and Duncan. One could make the case for his 01-02 season, but he didn't luck out. The only adjective I can think of is unprecedented since it's quite rare for a point guard to win an MVP award.


Look through the long history of all the winners of the MVP award. Nash doesn't even hold a candle to most of the people on that list.

Well he hasn't exactly reitred yet but just for argument's sake and more I agree with you. There is alot of clout on that list which features some legendary players. But Nash's quality as a player, and his career up until now, has no bearing on whether or not this particular season was MVP worthy. Nash is hardly the first player in any sport who won an unprecedented MVP award. Plenty of players in other sports have had MVP like seasons but overall less than stellar or 'good but not great' careers. You can add Steve Nash to that list, preferably in the latter category.





The only thing disappointing in my opinion is we live in an age where people put an overexcessive amount of money over loyalty to friends and fans. That's pretty juvenile in my opinion.

I wouldn't call the belief that Nash owes some sort of loyalty to the people of Dallas juvenile, but I would call it naive and irrational.

Epitome22
05-08-2005, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by: sike
[quote]
Originally posted by: chumdawg
[quote]
.




15 and 11 are very nice stats....very good personal numbers...but they are no where near great.

Jason Kidd was a front runner for the MVP award a couple of years ago during a season in which he averaged 14.7 and 9.9, good but not overwhelming stats by any means. You are not analyzing them in context.



Nash is what he is: an amazing offensive point guard. But his status as a liability on the defensive end will forever disqualify in my book as being considered the best player in the league.

The question is not about being the best player in the league but having the best season, or more accurately, providing the most value.




If the award is being given to him because of his impact to the Suns, I have little problem with it....

I'm sure it played a part.



but I do still ask for someone to show me a worse MVP.

Fair enough. One the grand scale, maybe only Bill Walton and MAYBE Mcadoo, Nash's career isn't finished yet. But regardless of Nash's abilities as a player, his season was certainly a candidate for MVP.

dirno2000
05-08-2005, 11:50 PM
I don’t buy the “Nash can’t play defense so he can’t win the MVP” argument. You play the game to win and if Nash is so dominant on offense that he can make up for his defensive shortcomings then it shouldn’t be held against him. If winning MVP is about being a complete and well-rounded player lets not even bother with the voting and just give it to KG every year…he’s Mr. Versatility right? Shaq and Duncan should never win it because they’re not very good ft shooters and Dirk shouldn’t win it until he can put up 6 assists per game. Nash has played his position as well as any of the other candidates have played theirs so in my mind he’s a legitimate MVP candidate.

It’s true that he’s benefiting from the disappearance of the true PG in the NBA but I don’t have a problem with that, especially if it leads to young PG’s trying to emulate his game.

sike
05-09-2005, 12:17 AM
Jason Kidd was a front runner for the MVP award a couple of years ago during a season in which he averaged 14.7 and 9.9, good but not overwhelming stats by any means. You are not analyzing them in context.
Jason Kidd is also one of the best defensive point guards over the past decade…I do think this makes a difference. If your point is that there is precedent for MVP candidates that never was my point.

The question is not about being the best player in the league but having the best season, or more accurately, providing the most value.
fine. Like I said before clearly, Nash is the perfect fit at the perfect time…if that makes you worthy of the MVP, I’m cool with that. But like you said, he did not have the best season.

his season was certainly a candidate for MVP.
not really, his “value” might be…but by the numbers…not so much.

sike
05-09-2005, 12:37 AM
Originally posted byi/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gifirno2000: I don’t buy the “Nash can’t play defense so he can’t win the MVP” argument.
its just a piece to the puzzle.

You play the game to win
yeah...one game at a time right? i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

if Nash is so dominant on offense that he can make up for his defensive shortcomings
acorrding to who? He is the same guy playing the same game who got tore up by critics in previous years for being destroyed by every athletic point in the league...what changed? His team. Like I said, the game is the same that the critics used to dig into....now he just plays for a more athletic team where his short comings are hidden better...

If winning MVP is about being a complete and well-rounded player lets not even bother with the voting and just give it to KG every year…he’s Mr. Versatility right? Shaq and Duncan should never win it because they’re not very good ft shooters and Dirk shouldn’t win it until he can put up 6 assists per game. Nash has played his position as well as any of the other candidates have played theirs so in my mind he’s a legitimate MVP candidate.
I have no problem with this...but name a worse MVP...so far Kiki has nominated Walton...22 has offered Mcadoo...I personally think Nash's season stats are the worse for his era than those of the past MVPs.


It’s true that he’s benefiting from the disappearance of the true PG in the NBA but I don’t have a problem with that,
actually I think he's benefiting mostly by being on the NBA's new darling and by the success of his teammates, but whatever floats your boat...

especially if it leads to young PG’s trying to emulate his game.
his offensive game i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

FINtastic
05-09-2005, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by: Epitome22

Originally posted by: FINtastic
It's laughable that he has even won one.

Based on?

The fact that he still isn't among the top 5 players in the league, he doesn't play a lick of defense, Shaq had a bigger impact on his team (i know this is debatable, but his team is a more legitimate contender - no way the suns make it past the spurs if they do in fact make it past the us), and there were a number of other reasons why the suns made their big improvement besides just Nash.




The fact that point guards who were much better than him like Kidd and Stockton have less MVP awards than him is laughable.

I don't see what's so 'laughable' about it (you might think about employing another adjective besides 'laughable') Kidd is great and Stockton was great, but Stockton played during the same era as Jordan and Olajuwon and on the same team as Malone so he caught a tough break. The same with Kidd playing at the same time as Garnett and Duncan. One could make the case for his 01-02 season, but he didn't luck out. The only adjective I can think of is unprecedented since it's quite rare for a point guard to win an MVP award.

Well he's playing in the same era of Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, LeBron James, Tracy McGrady, and Kevin Garnett. Nash just lucked into the fact that he signed with a young, extremely talented team that had a desparate need for a point guard. He's got Amare on the same team, just like Stockton had Malone. I guess if Stockton had lucked into the fact that he signed with the Jazz about 8 years into their career when they desparately needed a point guard, that would somehow make him more worthy of an MVP? Not in my book.



Look through the long history of all the winners of the MVP award. Nash doesn't even hold a candle to most of the people on that list.

Well he hasn't exactly reitred yet but just for argument's sake and more I agree with you. There is alot of clout on that list which features some legendary players. But Nash's quality as a player, and his career up until now, has no bearing on whether or not this particular season was MVP worthy. Nash is hardly the first player in any sport who won an unprecedented MVP award. Plenty of players in other sports have had MVP like seasons but overall less than stellar or 'good but not great' careers. You can add Steve Nash to that list, preferably in the latter category.

Look Nash had a really good year, and his assist numbers were pretty impressive. Not to mention, his presence on Phoenix helped to put them over the top as one of the best teams in the league. But I still don't think he did what Shaq did in turning the Heat into maybe the top title contender. I still don't think he's even a decent defender. And I still don't think he is one of the top 5 players in the league (maybe even top 10 although that might be stretching it a bit). He really lucked into a situation where he was the last necessary piece that needed to be put in place and way underachieved the year before. And I don't really care about other sports, I'm talking the NBA here. He still isn't on the same level as about 9/10 of the players on the list, and the few that are around his level are still probably better than him.


The only thing disappointing in my opinion is we live in an age where people put an overexcessive amount of money over loyalty to friends and fans. That's pretty juvenile in my opinion.

I wouldn't call the belief that Nash owes some sort of loyalty to the people of Dallas juvenile, but I would call it naive and irrational.

Um, why is it naive? This is sports. If it weren't for these fans that he supposedly doesn't owe any loyalty to, he'd be off working at some business where he would be pretty darn lucky to make 1/100th what he is making right now. We kind of pay for his contract (well not his current one obviously, but his previous one). But hey, it is his right to go off and make money, there's no law against it, but it's as much our right to be bitter about it. Besides sports is always more fun when there is a villain involved.

But still, I would think if I were a former teammate, I'd be even more ticked. You know I'd feel kind of betrayed if a friend who was already set for life went fleeing for even more money (and the irony is most of his colleagues in the business do it too). Apparently you think differently, and this is going to be one of those "agree to disagree" topics, but that's my two cents.

And it still doesn't change the fact that he is probably the sparest player on the MVP list, all bitterness aside.

FINtastic
05-09-2005, 01:18 AM
Bob McAdoo wasn't all that bad individually. He was one of the first 7 footers to show extended range on his jumper, and he was absolutely dominant in the scoring column. He was one of those guys that kind of paved the way for Dirk - a 7 footer who showed that you don't have to necessarily be solely a back to the basket player. He was one of those revolutionary players.

Misfit Mav
05-09-2005, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by: mary
This is my formal request for a list of former MVP's that are NOT CLEARLY BETTER BASKETBALL PLAYERS than Steve Nash.


Here's an interesting fact: looking over that list, Nash is the ONLY MVP who currently does not have at least a Finals appearance under his belt. Malone, Iverson, and Barkley are the only other three without titles. Most have at least two titles.

kingrex
05-09-2005, 09:23 AM
He won for Regular Season MVP. He brought his team from cellar to the penthouse with the best record in the NBA.

In the regular season, there is no other choice but Steve Nash for MVP.

Now, if the Suns win it all, then he should be Play-off MVP too. But don't mistake Regular Season MVP as the best player in the league and in the playoffs. They are NOT the same.

MavKikiNYC
05-09-2005, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by: Misfit Mav

Originally posted by: mary
This is my formal request for a list of former MVP's that are NOT CLEARLY BETTER BASKETBALL PLAYERS than Steve Nash.


Here's an interesting fact: looking over that list, Nash is the ONLY MVP who currently does not have at least a Finals appearance under his belt. Malone, Iverson, and Barkley are the only other three without titles. Most have at least two titles.

Interesting.

Should note too that McAdoo's titles game with the Lakers, long after his MVP-level contributions had dwindled to those of a very good 7th or 8th man.

I nominated Walton, and in the interest of full disclosure I should say that I hated him as a player, and have no respect for him as an "analyst" or as an individual. Weighing his one MVP award against the whole of his career just highlights the extent to which he failed to live up to his potential. His whole pro career is more inflated from coulda-been hype than any player I can think of. His later title(s?) came through the refracted glory of Bird-Parrish-McHale et all. All that said, the season he won MVP was a championship season for his team, and he was probably the most deserving player that year. The performance he put up, if not the numbers themselves, made him a fair enough candidate/recipient.

I liked Unseld as a player, but the more I think about it, with the exception of the championship, and the multiple Finals appearances, he and Nash probably made about even contributions to their teams' success, while putting up numbers that didn't look that impressive on their own (although 11+apg is pretty damn nigh dominant, it is still in a sense a shared stat.)

Flashes in the pan happen.

rakesh.s
05-09-2005, 12:34 PM
Amare Stoudemire is not an average player by any means..are you insane? - to whoever said that.

That being said, being 3rd in the league in double doubles using points and assists from the point guard position is nothing short of remarkable. This is a league dominated by big men(shaq, garnett, duncan, dirk, yao etc etc) and a 6'3 guy is 3rd in double doubles? Are you kidding me? His team was FIRST PLACE in the WEST.

It's also annoying to see all these posts about him being steve "cash" and calling him a butt pirate, etc etc..It just makes some of us mavs fans look like we're in denial, and that ain't a river in Egypt.

Misfit Mav
05-09-2005, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by: kingrex
He won for Regular Season MVP. He brought his team from cellar to the penthouse with the best record in the NBA.

In the regular season, there is no other choice but Steve Nash for MVP.

Now, if the Suns win it all, then he should be Play-off MVP too. But don't mistake Regular Season MVP as the best player in the league and in the playoffs. They are NOT the same.

Of course not, but presumably the best player during the regular season should be good enough to make the finals at some point. Every other MVP has.

Misfit Mav
05-09-2005, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC

Originally posted by: Misfit Mav

Originally posted by: mary
This is my formal request for a list of former MVP's that are NOT CLEARLY BETTER BASKETBALL PLAYERS than Steve Nash.


Here's an interesting fact: looking over that list, Nash is the ONLY MVP who currently does not have at least a Finals appearance under his belt. Malone, Iverson, and Barkley are the only other three without titles. Most have at least two titles.

Interesting.

Should note too that McAdoo's titles game with the Lakers, long after his MVP-level contributions had dwindled to those of a very good 7th or 8th man.

I nominated Walton, and in the interest of full disclosure I should say that I hated him as a player, and have no respect for him as an "analyst" or as an individual. Weighing his one MVP award against the whole of his career just highlights the extent to which he failed to live up to his potential. His whole pro career is more inflated from coulda-been hype than any player I can think of. His later title(s?) came through the refracted glory of Bird-Parrish-McHale et all. All that said, the season he won MVP was a championship season for his team, and he was probably the most deserving player that year. The performance he put up, if not the numbers themselves, made him a fair enough candidate/recipient.

I liked Unseld as a player, but the more I think about it, with the exception of the championship, and the multiple Finals appearances, he and Nash probably made about even contributions to their teams' success, while putting up numbers that didn't look that impressive on their own (although 11+apg is pretty damn nigh dominant, it is still in a sense a shared stat.)

Flashes in the pan happen.

I agree that Unseld, Walton, and Cowens and maybe McAdoo are not head-and-shoulders above Nash (although literally, they are.) The difference is that they are all big men, and all defense-oriented except McAdoo.

I have no problem with a guard like Nash winning the award, in fact, maybe its past due. If Nash starts a trend for little guys, maybe thats not so bad. But its too bad guys like Jerry West, Havlicek, Walt Frazier, Rick Barry, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton etc. didn't benefit from it.

kingrex
05-09-2005, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by: Misfit Mav

Of course not, but presumably the best player during the regular season should be good enough to make the finals at some point. Every other MVP has.

I'm not sure if I understand your point, but if you are saying that Nash and the Suns are not "good enough" to make the finals, then I think you're mistaken. The Suns with Nash are contenders for the NBA Finals without a doubt.

Big Boy Laroux
05-09-2005, 03:53 PM
Well, I asked for it, and I got it:

Nash Wins, No Matter What Color (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jones/050509&num=0)


not a good article though. The writer sucks. sounds like stuart scott wrote it. gotta love the quote about Dirk's D. yet another crappy writer who doesn't actually watch any games.

madape
05-10-2005, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
]
I’d rather have an ordinary Damp than Nash.

hehe..

you crack me up sometimes dirno2000

Thespiralgoeson
05-10-2005, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by: madape

Originally posted by: dirno2000
]
I’d rather have an ordinary Damp than Nash.

hehe..

you crack me up sometimes dirno2000

I would also rather have Damp than Nash. Sorry Madape, you can hate Damp and love Bradley all you want, but face it. Without Damp we're exactly what we were before; a jumpshooting team with no center. He may be ineffective in this series, but the guy played damn solid in the regular season.

capitalcity
05-11-2005, 09:40 PM
THIS JUST IN!!!!! Keyrock the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer i/expressions/heart.gif's money.

Misfit Mav
05-12-2005, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by: capitalcity
THIS JUST IN!!!!! Keyrock the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer i/expressions/heart.gif's money.

Ha ha ha! Best Nash nick-name ever! I can just imagining him accepting the MVP award and saying "Ladies and gentlemen, I'm just a caveman..."

kingrex
05-12-2005, 05:48 PM
The other player with caveman type features is Jerry Stackhouse.

chumdawg
05-12-2005, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by: Misfit Mav

Originally posted by: capitalcity
THIS JUST IN!!!!! Keyrock the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer i/expressions/heart.gif's money.

Ha ha ha! Best Nash nick-name ever! I can just imagining him accepting the MVP award and saying "Ladies and gentlemen, I'm just a caveman..."...I fell through some ice, and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. I'm frightened and confused by your world. When I get a call on my cell phone, I wonder: where are these voices coming from? When I get a fax on my fax machine, I wonder: how does that work? Are there little demons in there typing it? I don't know...I'm just a caveman!

But there is one thing I do know. When my client slips and falls on a wet sidewalk in front of a public library, he is entitled to no less than two million dollars in compensatory damages, and two million dollars in punitive damages.

Jeremiah
05-16-2005, 12:11 PM
...

Epitome22
05-21-2005, 02:55 PM
Just thought I would opine that that Steve Nash fellow sure is a swell basketball player.

chumdawg
05-21-2005, 03:56 PM
Bet he wins the Finals MVP as well.

V2M
05-22-2005, 11:35 AM
Outside of Jordan, I haven't seen a more dominant playoff performance in a series than what Nash just had against us.