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View Full Version : We all know Bruce Bowen is dirty


Phil Helmuth
05-08-2005, 04:47 PM
Now I need some proof. Anyone have that video of him elbowing Finley in the face? Or the headbutt against Vince Carter. Or any other dirty plays he has been involved in. Thanks

Member
05-08-2005, 09:49 PM
I heard 3 out of the 4 members on one of the Around the NBA casts or something saying he wasn't a dirty player AT ALL. Walton was one of them.

irontoad
05-08-2005, 10:28 PM
The video of him jump kicking szczerbiak was my favorite. Can't find that anywhere, though...

Drbio
05-08-2005, 10:42 PM
And if Bill Walton said that it must be true. i/expressions/moon.gif

Member
05-08-2005, 10:55 PM
^ My sentiments exactly doc. I almost spit out my drink.

FilthyFinMavs
05-09-2005, 09:54 AM
Go on a T-Wovles board and you will definately find the pick of him drop kicking Wally.

Phil Helmuth
05-09-2005, 01:54 PM
http://spree.nahome.cc/zboard/data/picture/bruceleebowen.gif

Now wheres the one of him elbowing Fin?

razap
05-09-2005, 02:16 PM
Do you realize that Bowen was in the air and wally moved his head into bowen.. sort of like when a guy leaves his feet to make a tackle and the offensive player goes down before he gets there.. to then be called for a penalty on a late hit..

The Crippler
05-09-2005, 02:20 PM
not true.

razap
05-09-2005, 02:24 PM
If you would take your anti-spurs glasses off for just a second and watch the video. Bowen jumped and had not Wally moved Bowen would have gone right by him..Wally went towards Bowen and into his flying foot. Bowen wouyd have to adjust in mid air due to Wallys upfake and keep his foot straight and then aim at Wally's face..in less than a second ..while in the air..this is just ridiculous. All the whining I hear about Bowen and the guy continues to make ALL NBA defensive teams..

kingrex
05-09-2005, 02:27 PM
Bowen is a crafty and tenacious defender.

Some of what he does can be questioned as intentional, but most of it is just due to his tenacity as a defender. He is constantly slapping at the ball and he moves his feet so well that he usually beats the offensive player to where he is going. He is the type of player one would love to be on their team, but everyone seems to hate when he's on the other team.

My opinion, he's not dirty.

razap
05-09-2005, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by: kingrex
Bowen is a crafty and tenacious defender.

Some of what he does can be questioned as intentional, but most of it is just due to his tenacity as a defender. He is constantly slapping at the ball and he moves his feet so well that he usually beats the offensive player to where he is going. He is the type of player one would love to be on their team, but everyone seems to hate when he's on the other team.

My opinion, he's not dirty.

Thankfully some sanity. I love the way he plays. He moves his feet and he anticipates very well.

kingrex
05-09-2005, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: kingrex
Bowen is a crafty and tenacious defender.

Some of what he does can be questioned as intentional, but most of it is just due to his tenacity as a defender. He is constantly slapping at the ball and he moves his feet so well that he usually beats the offensive player to where he is going. He is the type of player one would love to be on their team, but everyone seems to hate when he's on the other team.

My opinion, he's not dirty.

Thankfully some sanity. I love the way he plays. He moves his feet and he anticipates very well.

You have to admit though, that there are some plays that Bowen is involved in that can be questioned as dirty, right?

I mean you don't think he's a saint, right?

razap
05-09-2005, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by: kingrex

Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: kingrex
Bowen is a crafty and tenacious defender.

Some of what he does can be questioned as intentional, but most of it is just due to his tenacity as a defender. He is constantly slapping at the ball and he moves his feet so well that he usually beats the offensive player to where he is going. He is the type of player one would love to be on their team, but everyone seems to hate when he's on the other team.

My opinion, he's not dirty.

Thankfully some sanity. I love the way he plays. He moves his feet and he anticipates very well.

You have to admit though, that there are some plays that Bowen is involved in that can be questioned as dirty, right?

I mean you don't think he's a saint, right?



I will say that, in my opinion, I have never seen Bowen PURPOSELY hurt someone. Now the way he plays does cause discomfort and creates quite a bit of contact but I will agree that it can be questioned. However I do not think he is dirty in that he is not out there trying to hurt anyone. To me it is about intention. Is Bowen out there busting his a$$ trying play good defense? Or is Bowen out there taking shortcuts that can huryt opposing players? I love the way he plays because he gets into your jock..

Phil Helmuth
05-09-2005, 02:57 PM
Bullshit. Bowen undercuts players way too often and he knows what he is doing when he does it. Undercutting is dirty. Plain and simple. Bowen undercuts players and has hurt players doing so. He often seems to hurt players when they are lighting him up (Finley last year, and Vince Carter this year).

mavs413
05-09-2005, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by: razap
Do you realize that Bowen was in the air and wally moved his head into bowen.. sort of like when a guy leaves his feet to make a tackle and the offensive player goes down before he gets there.. to then be called for a penalty on a late hit..

That is not what happend. How many players do you see try and block a shot with a karate kick? Wally saw him jumping out of the corner of his eye, and he was only moving to run around a jumping player and drive to the basket like most players would do. Bowen was just keeping him from doing so by extending his foot at the last second.

razap
05-09-2005, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by: Phil Helmuth
Bullshit. Bowen undercuts players way too often and he knows what he is doing when he does it. Undercutting is dirty. Plain and simple. Bowen undercuts players and has hurt players doing so. He often seems to hurt players when they are lighting him up (Finley last year, and Vince Carter this year).

Kobe Bryant. Kobe is a better player than Finley or Carter and Bowen has played Kobe many more times and not one complaint from him or Phil Jackson. Kobe has had his 30 & 40 + games and Bowen never "undercut" him..

razap
05-09-2005, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by: mavs413

Originally posted by: razap
Do you realize that Bowen was in the air and wally moved his head into bowen.. sort of like when a guy leaves his feet to make a tackle and the offensive player goes down before he gets there.. to then be called for a penalty on a late hit..

That is not what happend. How many players do you see try and block a shot with a karate kick? Wally saw him jumping out of the corner of his eye, and he was only moving to run around a jumping player and drive to the basket like most players would do. Bowen was just keeping him from doing so by extending his foot at the last second.


Bowen was not trying to block the shot..ever heard of contesting a jump shot? Bowen jumped and Wally moved..

mavs413
05-09-2005, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by: mavs413

Originally posted by: razap

That is not what happend. How many players do you see try and block a shot with a karate kick? Wally saw him jumping out of the corner of his eye, and he was only moving to run around a jumping player and drive to the basket like most players would do. Bowen was just keeping him from doing so by extending his foot at the last second.


Bowen was not trying to block the shot..ever heard of contesting a jump shot? Bowen jumped and Wally moved..

At first he was raising his arms to block/contest the shot, then when he knew Wally wasnt going to shoot he extended his leg.
http://spree.nahome.cc/zboard/data/picture/bruceleebowen.gif

kg_veteran
05-09-2005, 03:11 PM
I can't believe this is even a debate. Bowen's a very good defender, but how can you argue with a straight face that he doesn't make dirty plays? I wouldn't per se call him "dirty", but he's definitely willing to do whatever it takes to win, including making dirty plays.

Re: the specific Wally incident being discussed, who the heck extends their foot out like he did? But yeah, that's Wally's fault. He was trying to draw contact with his FACE.

I've heard some pretty crazy arguments, but that's right up there, razap.

kingrex
05-09-2005, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran


Re: the specific Wally incident being discussed, who the heck extends their foot out like he did? But yeah, that's Wally's fault. He was trying to draw contact with his FACE.




You can really turn a phrase to crack me up. i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif

Big Boy Laroux
05-09-2005, 03:37 PM
KG, i'm with you. how anyone can argue that the kick was not intentional, AND that it was Wally's fault, AND with no hint of sarcasm is beyond me. simply amazing.

also, isn't "trying to block a shot" the same as "contesting a jump shot"? I'm sure guys that are "contesting a jump shot" are trying to get a piece of the ball.

and i would also definitely say that his undercuts of both ray allen and vince carter were obvious dirty plays. NO ONE, "good defender" or not, gets that far underneath a player on a jump shot, without it being intentional.

razap
05-09-2005, 03:51 PM
so then Bowen selectively gets under people? If I were to go along with you wouldn't there be more players from the other 27 teams claiming the same thing?

MFFL41
05-09-2005, 03:55 PM
Baron Davis, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Michael Finley, and Carmello Anthony would all disagree with you.

Big Boy Laroux
05-09-2005, 03:55 PM
the only players he has done that to are the ones that he has had a public war of words with (actually, the war of words is one-sided). Allen talks about bowen, gets undercut. Carter spars with Bowen, gets undercut. and it happened twice to carter.

hell, even if bowen was a mav, i'd say he purposefully undercut those guys.

kingrex
05-09-2005, 03:58 PM
Look I don't consider Bowen dirty most of the time, but there are instances when he has done some dirty things. ]

I don't call him dirty, but to say that he is not intentionally doing some dirty things is naive (with all due respect).

mavsman55
05-09-2005, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by: razap

Originally posted by: mavs413

Originally posted by: razap
Do you realize that Bowen was in the air and wally moved his head into bowen.. sort of like when a guy leaves his feet to make a tackle and the offensive player goes down before he gets there.. to then be called for a penalty on a late hit..

That is not what happend. How many players do you see try and block a shot with a karate kick? Wally saw him jumping out of the corner of his eye, and he was only moving to run around a jumping player and drive to the basket like most players would do. Bowen was just keeping him from doing so by extending his foot at the last second.


Bowen was not trying to block the shot..ever heard of contesting a jump shot? Bowen jumped and Wally moved..

You don't block shots with your feet. Bruce could have just as easily moved his foot out of the way. Wally didn't have enough time in between the time he saw Bruce coming and the moment he was dropkicked in the face to "move into the kick".

DubOverdose
05-09-2005, 06:49 PM
How is this even a discussion? Didn't TIM DUNCAN say Bowen is dirty? Nuff said.

Phil Helmuth
05-09-2005, 08:21 PM
Because on another board (Longhorns) Spurs fans act like he is a tough player who never crosses the line. "He just annoys players like Najera does." I wanted more proof.

l
Quietly around the NBA, they're whispering about San Antonio's Bruce Bowen and asking the question: Is he a dirty player?

The discussion took place in the Sonics' locker room last night, a day after Bowen was involved in a play that led to Toronto's Vince Carter spraining his ankle. The All-Star guard is expected to miss the next four weeks.

Television replays showed Bowen slid his foot beneath Carter as Carter leaped for a jump shot. When Carter descended, his foot landed awkwardly on Bowen's foot.

"I don't think he (Bowen) did it intentionally," Allen said. "That's just the way that Bruce plays."

Still, Allen believes Bowen's defensive tactics cross the line.

Allen recounted: "When we were at the All-Star Game, Tim Duncan asked me, and we were in front of Peja (Stojakovic, Sacramento), and he asked me, 'Is Bruce Bowen dirty?' I said, 'Hell, yeah, he's dirty.' And Peja was like, 'I don't think so ... well, sometimes.'

"I was like, 'The only reason you say that is because you're catching it and shooting it. He doesn't have a chance to put his hands up on you.' And Tim was like, 'Yeah, maybe you have a point.' ... He knows. The whole league knows about Bruce."
Article (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2001861515_sonicsreport20.htm)

razap
05-10-2005, 09:04 AM
My point exactly.





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Buck Harvey: Kobe as the standard? How Allen should be acting
Web Posted: 05/10/2005 01:43 AM CDT

San Antonio Express-News


Bruce Bowen isn't merely in Ray Allen's head.


More Coverage
Aggressive Parker draws Sonics' attention
Buck Harvey: Kobe as the standard? How Allen should be acting
Allen blames Bowen for injury Sonics lack panacea for injuries Notebook: Allen's status won't change Spurs' plans

Bowen has checked into a non-smoking king there, with breakfast included. Bowen has become such a frequent guest the front desk knows him that Allen's head is filled to capacity.
Allen, for example, imagines something now he admits he never saw.

The Spurs don't mind. They witnessed firsthand earlier this season what happened when Bowen got in Vince Carter's head. Carter lost his.

But not everyone has reacted this way to Bowen, and this player isn't a role model to anyone else today.

Kobe Bryant.

Even before Bryant started his commute to Eagle County, Colo., he was never as engaging as Allen. Allen has starred with Denzel Washington in a movie, and in real life Allen acts even better.

He's smart, funny, opinionated, polite and available. That's the reason he got more votes than anyone last season for the NBA's all-interview team.

But it's also clear he hung around with George Karl too much in Milwaukee. Just as Karl couldn't stop talking about the officiating in the previous series, Allen can't in this one.

Allen started before the series did, which might be a playoff record. And Sunday night Allen went further.

After he suffered a sprained ankle, Allen told a Seattle newspaper: "Same old Bruce. I got caught on his foot and it just turned. He's good for that. He's done that before."

Bowen has quick feet, all right, and he's been known to put them in the way of other feet. But while chasing someone on a drive to the basket? Where contact is always waiting anyway?

This is possible only in Allen's head.

Allen believed in the worst on Monday. He said this kind of injury has happened before with Bowen around. And when asked if Bowen helped cause this one, Allen nodded.

"Yeah, because that was the second time I went to the hole, and he was grabbing and holding on to me. And he flops out of bounds like I pushed him into the backstop."

Allen kept fielding questions, accommodating as always, but his answers began to change. He admitted he didn't know exactly what happened, and that he could have sprained his ankle with anyone defending him.

But Allen never backed off with his opinion about Bowen. "So many people make excuses for him as though he is doing something out there legitimate," Allen said. "But we've all seen what he does."
[
B]Many have seen what Bowen does, and some have voted on it. Just last season NBA coaches named Bowen to the all-defensive first team. This season Bowen finished second for defensive player of the year, an award determined by the media. [/b]


As for "many people" making excuses for him: These awards suggest there are many.

But everyone who has watched Bowen knows he isn't always effective. Last year in the second round, in fact, everyone saw something entirely different.

Then Bryant had other issues in his head. On the same day as Game 4 against the Spurs, Bryant was in Colorado to enter a not-guilty plea to charges of rape. That means he had little time to worry about a Bowen hand-check.

Bryant had another reason to worry less. Instead of Jerome James, Bryant had Shaquille O'Neal.

Still, Bryant treated Bowen as he should be treated. With some respect, and with some high-level basketball.

"I really don't worry about Bruce too much," Bryant said in that series. "What Bruce does is, he's in excellent condition, great shape, and he just tries to run with you all night long. He tries to be a pest all night long, but I don't let that get to me."

Bryant also said this: He liked going against Bowen.

He had reason to like it in Game 4. Bryant went for 42 points, tying up the series, and on the other end he tilted the series even more. Bryant left Bowen so often to pinch Tony Parker's drives that Gregg Popovich eventually chose to bench Bowen.

Allen's ankle might stop him from doing the same tonight. But if Allen is healthy, should he be sick worrying about Bowen? Isn't it better to see Bowen as a challenge, to concentrate on the game instead of the whistles, to simply play?

Bryant knew that.

He won the series. And the head games.

kingrex
05-10-2005, 10:28 AM
Like I said, Bowen is a crafty, hard-nosed defender.

He will do anything to get an advantage against the player he is guarding. If that means getting into his head, then he'll do that. If it means suckering the player into a retaliatory foul, then he'll do that. The guy is willing to play dirty at times, but for the most part it is just flat out good defense.

dirk41nowitzki
05-10-2005, 02:51 PM
Players who have said Bowen was dirty or experienced his dirtiness:
VC- season ended by Bowen last year, scored 43 on him but head butted with Bowen and got ejected with a quarter left to play.
Wally- got kicked in the face... has anyone ever been kicked in the face on a jump shot? classic
Allen- u know the story
others include Finley, Kobe, Carmelo. Allan Houston always gets shut down when Bowen was playing for Miami but i don't know if he said anything.

When this many ppl hate a player, there are 2 reasons:
1. Bowen is in fact dirty.
2. Players gets frustrated by him too much that they have to call him that, which makes him a great defender.

I believe that he is a great defender, but he sometimes crosses the line, which makes him so famous with his D. I think Hassell, Raja Bell, Buckner, Adrian Griffin, and a whole lotta other players are the same. They don't have much talent but they spend all their energy on defense. Others are not so noticable because they don't do the things Bowen does, and Bowen plays for the Spurs.