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View Full Version : Stick a fork in it, the Suns are done


rakesh.s
05-24-2005, 10:43 PM
It's over..get the fishing gear out.

This isn't Houston. Phoenix isn't coming back from a 2-0 deficit.

You have guys like Duncan who can draw fouls by making contact with the defender's sternum and ginobili who jerks his head more than bobblehead doll.

Joe Johnson might be back in game 3, but it's too late..Don't risk anything that might ruin your career, Joe.

endtroducing
05-24-2005, 10:45 PM
wah, wah, wah.

mary
05-24-2005, 10:59 PM
I loved the ending.

Parker stayed tight on Nash all the way down the floor, Bowen doubed teamed him and forced him into a really tough shot.

Imagine that! Defense at the end of a game. Amazing.

The Miles
05-24-2005, 11:46 PM
THIS IS AWESOME

Spurs in 4!!!!

TVI
05-24-2005, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by: rakesh.s
It's over..get the fishing gear out.

This isn't Houston. Phoenix isn't coming back from a 2-0 deficit.

You have guys like Duncan who can draw fouls by making contact with the defender's sternum and ginobili who jerks his head more than bobblehead doll.Yea, that's why Duncan had to play the last 4 minutes with five fouls and Stoudemire didn't get his first foul until well into the third quarter, and didn't get his second until there were four minutes left in the game. Stoudemire is getting a ton of respect in this series---a whole lot more than Duncan.

If it wasn't for the three intentional fouls Phoenix took in the last 11 seconds, no one on the Suns would have had more than 3 fouls.

You just can't take those ridiculous anti-Spurs glasses off. I thought the Spurs really got some BS calls against them tonight, but they managed to play through it.

dude1394
05-25-2005, 12:22 AM
where is that jikabao dude?

Sweep em out of the state spurs.

capitalcity
05-25-2005, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by: dude1394
where is that jikabao dude? Steve's hotel room.

Misfit Mav
05-25-2005, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by: dude1394
where is that jikabao dude?

He's busy changing his sig to "Tim and Manu rulez!"

capitalcity
05-25-2005, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by: dude1394
where is that jikabao dude?he's busy sucking Nash off to everyone who'll listen at spursreport.com.

dirno2000
05-25-2005, 01:37 AM
where is that jikabao dude?

I think jikabao is a woman...

vjz
05-25-2005, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by: rakesh.s


You have guys like Duncan who can draw fouls by making contact with the defender's sternum and ginobili who jerks his head more than bobblehead doll.



You must admit though that Amare got some ridiculous calls last night.

All he had to do was catch the ball and roll to the basket and he gets the call. It was outrageous. No respect even for the Spurs defense. Have the refs gone blind? Is it a conspiracy to try and get the Suns to the Finals? The League must be having nightmares of a Spurs/Pistons Finals.

chumdawg
05-25-2005, 10:42 AM
C'mon, Suns. You can pull this off, baby!

Bookit
05-25-2005, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by: vjz

Originally posted by: rakesh.s


You have guys like Duncan who can draw fouls by making contact with the defender's sternum and ginobili who jerks his head more than bobblehead doll.



You must admit though that Amare got some ridiculous calls last night.

All he had to do was catch the ball and roll to the basket and he gets the call. It was outrageous. No respect even for the Spurs defense. Have the refs gone blind? Is it a conspiracy to try and get the Suns to the Finals? The League must be having nightmares of a Spurs/Pistons Finals.

We saw the same thing with Amare. But, without a doubt, Manu is the biggest flopper in world baskeball. Hilarious. Did anybody see when Manu ran down the floor and barely touched Nash and then he FLEW to the ground like he was crushed! Funny.

Bookit
05-25-2005, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
C'mon, Suns. You can pull this off, baby!

Its only happened 3 times in the history of the NBA and one of those times was the Mavs this year. Twice in the same year with only 2 other times in the history of the NBA?? No way.

chumdawg
05-25-2005, 11:33 AM
Keep the faith, Bookit. Keep the faith.

mary
05-25-2005, 11:51 AM
I have faith that the better team will win the series.

Evilmav2
05-25-2005, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by: mary
I have faith that the better team will win the series.

I have faith that the better team has already as good as won this particular series...

cheesestar
05-25-2005, 02:52 PM
1.Steve Nash doesnt get to finals--check
2.No Spurs vs Pistons 50-49 point games--TBD

dalmations202
05-25-2005, 04:21 PM
Yea, that's why Duncan had to play the last 4 minutes with five fouls and Stoudemire didn't get his first foul until well into the third quarter, and didn't get his second until there were four minutes left in the game. Stoudemire is getting a ton of respect in this series---a whole lot more than Duncan.

If it wasn't for the three intentional fouls Phoenix took in the last 11 seconds, no one on the Suns would have had more than 3 fouls.

You just can't take those ridiculous anti-Spurs glasses off. I thought the Spurs really got some BS calls against them tonight, but they managed to play through it.

The biggest difference in the Spurs and the Mavs is right here. Even when they get jabbed, the don't let the officials, players, coaches or anything else deter them. They just play through it, and win anyway.

This game was served up to the Suns, but the Spurs wouldn't be denied. This is what champions are made of.

dude1394
05-25-2005, 10:48 PM
Turn out the lights.....the parties overrrrr.......

sike
05-26-2005, 01:08 AM
I like my sun rare please.

kingrex
05-26-2005, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by: dalmations202
The biggest difference in the Spurs and the Mavs is right here. Even when they get jabbed, the don't let the officials, players, coaches or anything else deter them. They just play through it, and win anyway.

This game was served up to the Suns, but the Spurs wouldn't be denied. This is what champions are made of.

That's called poise.

The Mavs haven't developed it yet, but it also comes with having more playoff experience as a team. This is the first year for THIS team in the playoffs. Let's see if they have a little more poise next year.

MavKikiNYC
05-26-2005, 10:24 AM
Has reallly stood out to me that late in the games when the Spurs have needed a basket, they have slowed the pace, gotten into a set, fed the post and/or attacked the rim, forced the Suns to defend (to the extent Phoenix is gonna), allowed a play to develop, and more often than not gotten a good high-percentage shot at the basket.

They have NOT come down and hoisted quick jumpers, or haven't had a player go uni-focus one-on-one and force up a junk shot.

True, having Duncan in the post is a big difference. But I think Dirk can definitely become a threat to score from on the blocks, not just a pretty jump-shooter--he's already shown a lot of ability down low in past years. And while Dirk is probably never gonna be a Duncan, he HAS to become more of a low-post threat for the Mavs to become successful in these situations. Damp may develop into a consistent valuable complementary player, but I absolutely don't see him being any kind of a primary threat.

poohrichardson
05-26-2005, 05:00 PM
The fact that Stoudemire is getting more calls than Duncan, when they're both playing the same game, is ridiculous. I've never seen Duncan complain without just cause.

4cwebb
05-28-2005, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by: poohrichardson
The fact that Stoudemire is getting more calls than Duncan, when they're both playing the same game, is ridiculous. I've never seen Duncan complain without just cause.


I've seen Duncan complain without just cause before, and as for the foul disparity, it's easy for Amare not to pick up fouls when he's not playing any defense. Duncan makes an effort on defense (and he actually posts up instead of just rolling to the basket for dunks and layups), so he's going to earn a few more fouls than Amare.

bernardos70
05-28-2005, 01:49 PM
We finally see the Nash of years' past in the Playoffs, albeit one series too late. It took a Tony Parker to expose his turnstile defense, so it didn't take much. Devin Harris can one up Tony Parker with more experience and walk all over Nash IMO. You make the Suns defend for 16-20 seconds, you're gonna get the shot you want. You keep hoisting shots in transition and missing them, you're helping them not play defense by not making it necessary to do so. The Spurs know this. And the bottom line is that they execute it.

mary
05-28-2005, 09:17 PM
The Suns are strug-ah-ling. Behind 17 points at the half.

mavsman55
05-28-2005, 10:25 PM
3 minutes left in the 4th... Nash has 2 assists and 6 turnovers. I love it.

dirno2000
05-28-2005, 10:48 PM
I actually think that the Suns would have been better off not having HCA in this series. They would have still lost the 1st two games, probably by larger margins, but Joe Johnson's return would have been at America West...the crowd would have exploded when he made that 1st three and I could very easily see PHX riding that energy to a win.

bernardos70
05-29-2005, 12:12 AM
10 points in the second quarter. That's all you gotta say. I could say Nash finished with 3 assists and 6 turnovers, but I won't.


Oops.

sike
05-29-2005, 12:19 AM
tony parker...MVP? i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

chumdawg
05-29-2005, 03:34 AM
Keep the faith, Sikey. Keep...the faith.

dirt_dobber
05-29-2005, 05:12 PM
What's the deal with Shawn Marion sitting out so much of the last quarter?

I heard he pulled himself out of the game and sulked? Anybody watch this and
is it so?

IF he did do this it really points out a huge character flaw.

.

bernardos70
05-29-2005, 05:39 PM
He sat out through much of the fourth because he obviously can't keep up with Duncan and D'Antoni decided to put hunter on him. Nothing changed.

I did not hear anything about Marion sulking.

dalmations202
05-29-2005, 06:24 PM
They just had no answer for Duncan....or the rest of the Spurs. No inside defense. No perimeter defense.

Spurs are just more prepared to play any way the Suns try to turn the game. If they take Duncan away by doubling, then the spot up guys are hurting them. If they come off the swingmen, they are getting to the rim. If they don't trap the PG, then he is cutting to the rim. Nashes defense on Parker is awful, as usual. If they trap, then Duncan or the swingmen are killing them. If they sag and block the lane, then even Bruce Bowen and Barry is hurting them from the 3-pt line.

MavKikiNYC
05-30-2005, 11:08 AM
No Defense May Mean No Chance for the Suns

By HOWARD BECK
Published: May 30, 2005

SAN ANTONIO, May 29 - With another loss to the San Antonio Spurs, the Phoenix Suns would pass quietly into the off-season, ending a fun little experiment that for a time kept the masses entertained and made opposing coaches quiver.

They are still running and gunning, zipping outlet passes, pulling up for 3-pointers on the break and generally lighting up scoreboards. But the Suns' giddy offensive experimentation may be trumped by the N.B.A.'s most enduring adage, the one that says defense wins championships.

Despite averaging 104.7 points and shooting 49.4 percent from the field, the Suns trail the San Antonio Spurs, 3-0, in the Western Conference finals. The Spurs have been smarter, steadier and, not incidentally, superior defenders throughout the series.

San Antonio can clinch the series as soon as Monday at the SBC Center.

The Spurs have already ensured a new round of skepticism and nit-picking about the Suns' frenetic style of offense, and their general disregard for defense.

"D is the most important thing; no D, no rings, most of the time," said Spurs forward Robert Horry, who has won five N.B.A. championships.

The Suns shook a defiant fist at that truism all season, but their run may be - literally and figuratively - ending. No N.B.A. team has won a series after losing the first three games. Of 76 series that have reached 3-0, 45 have ended in sweeps.

Only a month ago, as they put the finishing touches on a league-best 62-20 season, the Suns were confident in declaring that their style could carry them to the finals.

As Coach Mike _'Antoni said in April: "I don't think we have to play as well defensively as a nonoffensive team. It gives us a lot of chances to mess up, and we will."

That philosophy held up through two rounds of playoffs. The Suns swept Memphis, then beat Dallas, 4-2. The Spurs pose an altogether different type of challenge, however. They have for years ranked among the top defensive teams in the league, and they have built one of the best offenses as well.

The Spurs' threesome of Tim Duncan, Manu Ginóbili and Tony Parker has combined to average 75 points a game against the Suns' casual defense.

San Antonio has by no means shut down the Suns' offense, but the Spurs have contained Steve Nash and Amare Stou_emire for long stretches, particularly in the fourth quarters. A few minutes of strong defense have been the difference in every game.

So the 3-0 deficit, and even a series loss, will not deter _'Antoni and his score-first mentality.

"If you're assessing the situation, they have the better team, they've played the better basketball," he said. "But I don't think it has anything to do with our system. I think we have to play better defense." Editorial comment: Mike _'Antoni clearly doesn't get it yet.

Although _'Antoni said his team's defense had been "awful, as a matter of fact," he said there was no reason to rethink the fast-paced approach. Editorial comment: OOOF!

"I think the disparity that we're talking about is still four to five baskets," he said. "That's why it's hard for me to say the system doesn't work or does work." Editorial comment: I'll say it for you, Mike.

Excuse Department

Before the Suns bow out and leave playoff watchers to ponder the defensive prowess of the Spurs, the Detroit Pistons and the Miami Heat, there are other factors to consider in Phoenix's demise.

Excuse #1Joe Johnson, the Suns' best 3-point shooter and their best perimeter defender, missed the first two games of the series while recovering from a fractured orbital bone. All season, Johnson was regarded as the Suns' virtual fourth All-Star (after Nash, Stou_emire and Shawn Marion). He returned Saturday for Game 3 after a 17-day layoff, but was merely average.

Excuse #2"There's a bunch of things that didn't go in our favor," Nash said, referring also to the playoff schedule. To meet league television commitments, the Suns started this series a week ago Sunday, just two days after they finished off Dallas in an overtime game.

"That was like 30-whatever hours after we finished the Dallas series," Nash said. "Unlucky on that one. Unlucky on Joe not being available for the first two games."

Excuse #3This series also poses a somewhat unfair comparison because of the Suns' relative inexperience in the playoffs. This was their first year as currently constructed, and among the starters, only Nash has been this deep in the playoffs. San Antonio has won two championships since 1999, and its core group has been together for a few years.

Truth:<u>The all-offense, no-defense approach usually ends here, anyway.</u> The Mavericks and the Sacramento Kings have also tried it and failed in recent years.

"It's tough," Stou_emire said, "because with our style of play, there tends to be a little helter-skelter playing going on. And in the playoffs, you can't afford that. You've got to take every possession as valuable."

The Suns enjoy their style, but they will have to revisit it this summer. Stou_emire and Marion played out of position this season to make the scheme work, and it is not clear how long they will be willing to do so. Already, Stou_emire - worried about his longevity as an undersized center - has said he will raise the issue during contract-extension talks in July. Editorial comment: Is that a crack I hear forming in the Suns' foundation?

"We have to talk to them and be sure they're on board, because they're the ones sacrificing," _'Antoni said. "I think it's been pretty successful. I don't see that's why we're getting beat at all. I think there's other areas. Give it a shot, give it a couple, three years, they'll just grow as a team and see what happens." Editorial Prediction: _'Antoni will be replaced in 2 years by a coach who will implement some semblance of a defensive scheme.

mary
05-30-2005, 11:27 AM
Thanks for the article and the editorial comments Kiki. I'll take the under on D'Antoni's 2 years.

chumdawg
05-30-2005, 11:35 AM
Is this meant to imply that Phoenix would be/would have been substantially better off in this series if they were committed to an all-defense-all-the-time approach?

Is it possible that the Spurs are a good enough team to beat any other team, regardless the style of the opponent?

Keep an eye on Detroit. No one plays better defense than they do. But some play better offense.

The Spurs have the best balance in the NBA. They have a ton of talent. They have great coaching. They have very, very few weaknesses. Still and all, the Suns were able to push them hard in the first two games of the series. A bounce here and a bounce there...

If you want to take a results-oriented approach, you have to be sure you understand all the causes of the result. It's no more accurate to say that the Suns are losing this series solely because they play poor defense than it is to say that they ousted a 58-win team last round solely because they play great offense.

Bayliss
05-30-2005, 12:09 PM
You know what I love seeing about this series?

Three years ago when the Mavs and Kings were doing the exact same thing every person in the media blasted them. All they said was they couldn't win in the playoffs because they don't play defense. This year rolls around and the Suns do the exact same thing. Of course to use the Ron White analogy about bouncers... all the media guys would sit in the film room and beat off saying "Amare dunks again... oohh hu... hu... and again.!"

The Kings and Mavs already has shown it doesn't work. So why does everyone forget that when describing the Suns? (I just don't get it.)

Btw, as a side note another good thing to see with the Suns is therir own cap situation for the coming years. They have Marion maxed out. They have Nash maxed out. They will have to max out Amare. That's 3 huge contracts plus they've signed Quentin Richardson (why?). They have absolutely no bench. They have no backup point guard.

They could definitely be in "cap hell" for awhile.

chumdawg
05-30-2005, 12:46 PM
The Kings and Mavs already has shown it doesn't work. So why does everyone forget that when describing the Suns? (I just don't get it.)What exactly do you mean by "doesn't work?" If I'm not mistaken, the Kings and Mavs have won more playoff series in the West over the last five years than any other team that didn't have Shaq/Kobe or that wasn't named San Antonio. I'd say it worked better than any other teams' strategies did.

dirno2000
05-30-2005, 01:30 PM
Btw, as a side note another good thing to see with the Suns is therir own cap situation for the coming years. They have Marion maxed out. They have Nash maxed out. They will have to max out Amare. That's 3 huge contracts plus they've signed Quentin Richardson (why?). They have absolutely no bench. They have no backup point guard.Don't forget about Joe Johnson...he's a RFA this summer.

As for the backup PG, don't count out Barbosa just yet. He's just 22 and has shown flashes that he can be pretty good.

This Suns team is like the 2002-2003 Mavs in that that if they don't win it all this year it's probably not going to happen. Amare, Q and Johnson will all get a little better because they’ll have another year of experience but they've already made the major leap and Nash will probably get worse. I could be wrong about that because I didn't think he could play as well as he did in the playoffs this year, but I just don't think he can play at this level another year.

Then you have Marion in the Dallas series talking about how he never gets plays run for him and how nobody cared that his hand was hurting.

They’ll still win a lot of regular season games, but they’ll never win a title with that lineup. It leaves too many mismatches for a really good team to exploit. We weren’t quite good enough but the Spurs (and I’d guess Miami and Det) are.

Chiwas
05-30-2005, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by: chumdawg

The Kings and Mavs already has shown it doesn't work. So why does everyone forget that when describing the Suns? (I just don't get it.)What exactly do you mean by "doesn't work?" If I'm not mistaken, the Kings and Mavs have won more playoff series in the West over the last five years than any other team that didn't have Shaq/Kobe or that wasn't named San Antonio. I'd say it worked better than any other teams' strategies did.It doesn't win titles. Ask Nelson, the second most winning NBA coach, with no titles. The very Mavs and Kings, amazing playoffs winners, with no titles.

vjz
05-30-2005, 05:18 PM
One giant step
Suns future bright despite impending loss to Spurs

by Kelly Dwyer (SI.com)

Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/kelly_dwyer/05/30/suns/index.html)

The Phoenix Suns enter Monday's Game 4 with their backs against the proverbial wall, and while they could win a game or two to extend their stay in the conference finals, Tim Duncan and the rest of the Spurs more or less have the Western title wrapped-up. All is not lost, however. Though their 62-win season will end in the third round of the playoffs, the Suns have quite a bit to look forward to next season and beyond.
Catch them if you can

It is safe to say that the Suns will enter 2005-06 with the bull's-eye on their collective back, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The team managed to grow beyond the novelty status afforded them during the first months of the current season, translating their up-tempo style into the top seed in the playoffs. The same should happen next season, because while teams will try their damnedest to upend the Suns, Phoenix has made it clear that they are capable of bending opponents' will to play the run-and-gun style that no team excels at better than the Suns.

Surprising teams like the Suns often enter the following season unsure of their own faculties, publicly shrugging off "fluke" suggestions while privately wondering about their place among the league's elite. This often results in stagnant play, as illustrated by the '99-00 Sacramento Kings or this season's Memphis Grizzlies, or in a return-to-earth season, as was the case with Washington in '97-98 or Terry Porter's current Bucks team. The Suns, though, should be safe from those risks because of their overwhelming, if top-heavy, talent, and the innate leadership qualities of MVP Steve Nash.
Howard Eisley

Remember him? Journeyman point guard. Played in Utah this season (5.6 points and 3.4 assist in 19 minutes a game), though you'd be forgiven if you thought the man retired. Mark Cuban and the Dallas Nelsons decided to sign Howard away from Utah before the '00-01 season, giving him a large contract in the hopes that he'd beat Nash out for the starting point guard slot. Nash had only managed to play in 56 games and average 27 minutes a game in the season prior, but he blossomed in his third season with the Mavs, and Eisley was sent to the Knicks the next summer.

What does this have to do with, well, anything? The Suns own the rights to Eisley's expiring contract -- something close to $7 million -- that comes off of the salary cap in '06. This offer the Suns a fair amount of cap flexibility to re-ink Joe Johnson or Amare Stoudemire (both have extensions coming), or to parlay that cap figure into a trade for some much-needed depth. Once again, Mark Cuban with the assist.

The rock down low

Stoudemire will turn 23 just a few weeks into the '05-06 campaign, yet he's already considered one of the best big men in the game. After a high-school "career" that saw him attend seven different campuses and miss his entire junior year due to eligibility problems (something about hiring a PR firm to hand out glossy photos of himself to reporters), the fact that Stoudemire is on the cusp of finishing three scandal-free years as a pro is proof that one's background isn't always a good predictor of one's future..

Though the nagging questions about his eccentricities keep us on edge (If there are any Hall of Famers with a "Black Jesus" neck tattoo, I'm unaware.), the sheer potential for growth is off the charts. Averaging 29 points and 11 rebounds in this postseason alone, Stoudemire will start to dominate in the coming years as he weaves other aspects -- improved ball-handling, a 3-point stroke -- into his already impressive offensive repertoire. With the support system already in place, his future is secure.

chumdawg
05-30-2005, 07:19 PM
They bought him out this season. To the tune of $10MM, I think it was.

Bayliss
05-30-2005, 07:24 PM
What does this have to do with, well, anything? The Suns own the rights to Eisley's expiring contract -- something close to $7 million -- that comes off of the salary cap in '06. This offer the Suns a fair amount of cap flexibility to re-ink Joe Johnson or Amare Stoudemire (both have extensions coming), or to parlay that cap figure into a trade for some much-needed depth. Once again, Mark Cuban with the assist.

To quote The Statler Brothers... or the oak Ridge Boys...

"You can't have your Kate and Edith too."

One of them will be gone. And if one isn't... they are locked to money for 5 guys with no hope of getting a bench. Fine by me.

grndmstr_c
05-30-2005, 07:46 PM
Howard Eisley is not going to do much of anything for their cap situation. The Suns only have about 31 million committed in 06/07, but that entire amount is going to three players: Nash/Marion/Q. Joe Johnson will have a new contract by then, and after the very nice year he just put together I'd say it's a foregone conclusion that he'll be making at least as much as Q, so that puts the Suns payroll at a minimum of 38 million. The residual from Amare's rookie contract (assuming he hasn't demanded an extension before then; unlikely to say the least) would count roughly 3 million, so now we're looking at a best-case scenario of them having 41 million tied up in 5 players. And none of this even takes into account how much over the cap they're willing to get.

twelli
05-30-2005, 11:54 PM
Momentum shift?

I can see the Suns win the next game at home too, but then, they will probably lose in San Antonio.

chumdawg
05-31-2005, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
Howard Eisley is not going to do much of anything for their cap situation. The Suns only have about 31 million committed in 06/07, but that entire amount is going to three players: Nash/Marion/Q. Joe Johnson will have a new contract by then, and after the very nice year he just put together I'd say it's a foregone conclusion that he'll be making at least as much as Q, so that puts the Suns payroll at a minimum of 38 million. The residual from Amare's rookie contract (assuming he hasn't demanded an extension before then; unlikely to say the least) would count roughly 3 million, so now we're looking at a best-case scenario of them having 41 million tied up in 5 players. And none of this even takes into account how much over the cap they're willing to get.What does it matter, G? You can re-sign your own guys at any price, right? The way I understand this is that Eisley is currently counting toward their cap, and that once his contract expires they are free to sign someone else to take his place under the cap. And then AFTER THAT, they can sign their own guys for whatever price.

The Suns should have a lot of money to spend. Nothing keeps them from signing someone for Eisley's slot, re-signing their own guys for whatever price, and then adding another player for the MLE. Am I missing something?

Oh, and another thing. The Spurs may regret letting the Suns come off the mat this series. It looks like it's going six at a minimum.

dirno2000
05-31-2005, 01:50 AM
The Suns should have a lot of money to spend. Nothing keeps them from signing someone for Eisley's slot, re-signing their own guys for whatever price, and then adding another player for the MLE. Am I missing something?The way I see it, it all depends what they do with Joe Johnson. Colango has stated, and rightfully so, that his 1st priority is to sign Amare to an extension this summer. According to Chad Ford owners may be willing to push the cap to 51% of BRI which should put it somewhere between $47 and $50MM. That would mean Amare would make $12.5MM next season and about $14MM the next. Now, instead of the Suns projected 2006-2007 figure being at $31MM it's at almost $42MM and that's assuming that they just let Joe Johnson walk…we know that's not going to happen.

He's a RFA this summer and both Cleveland and Milwaukee are significantly under the cap...only one of them can sign Michael Redd so the other is sitting there with a big bag money looking at a 23 year old 6'7 two guard who can shoot the cover off the ball. Honestly I'm not sure that I wouldn't go after Johnson before Redd. The bottom line is that is going to take at least $7 or $8MM to sign him or match a competing offer. It that doesn't put them over the cap, it'll put them close enough that they won't be a player in FA beyond the MLE that everyone has.

So basically all the Eisly contract is doing is saving the owner money. If they kept him they could have traded his expiring contract before the deadline, but that's not even an option now.

chumdawg
05-31-2005, 02:18 AM
D2K, I'm afraid we aren't seeing it the same way. The way I'm seeing it, Eisley is already on their cap for this year. In fact, I'm almost certain this is true. So the way they can approach their offseason is this: sign someone for Eisley's cap slot. THEN resign their own guys (they should have plently of money to match any offers). Then sign someone for the MLE.

I'm sure I'm missing something. What am I missing?

chumdawg
05-31-2005, 03:38 AM
Does Phoenix get credit for fantastic defense played? If they win Game Five--which they will--will thet get credit for great defense played? I'm just wondering.

dirno2000
05-31-2005, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
D2K, I'm afraid we aren't seeing it the same way. The way I'm seeing it, Eisley is already on their cap for this year. In fact, I'm almost certain this is true. So the way they can approach their offseason is this: sign someone for Eisley's cap slot. THEN resign their own guys (they should have plently of money to match any offers). Then sign someone for the MLE.

I'm sure I'm missing something. What am I missing?You're right, Eisley is on their cap this year...he doesn't come off until the summer of 2006. The thing is, there are no slots...that was the old CBA. In that agreement, after a contract expired you had a slot roughly the size of that contract to sign another player...even if you were over the cap.

So what I'm saying this: Chances are Joe Johnson is going to get a big contract this offseason. He's too good for somebody not to make a run at him and the Suns will have to let him go or match the big offer. $8 or $9 million sounds reasonable to me. Then they want to sign Amare to an extension so he never reaches FA and he's a max player. By the time Eisley's contract comes off the books next summer they'll already be at or above the cap so it won't matter.

The only way they have cap room is if they don't sign Amare to an extension this summer.

madape
05-31-2005, 09:52 AM
Pheonix won't blink at matching Johnson, and won't blink at extending Amare. In addition, they will probably sign another solid rotation player with their exception. This is a young team with an owner that doesn't mind spending a little money. Hopeing that they are a one-year wonder that will fall of the face of the Earth a'la the 2003 Dallas Mavericks is... wishful thinking.

Bayliss
05-31-2005, 10:00 AM
Pheonix won't blink at matching Johnson, and won't blink at extending Amare. In addition, they will probably sign another solid rotation player with their exception. This is a young team with an owner that doesn't mind spending a little money. Hopeing that they are a one-year wonder that will fall of the face of the Earth a'la the 2003 Dallas Mavericks is... wishful thinking.

Fine by me tying that much money for 5 players. Hard to get a bench or develop talent when you can't afford anyone.

Mark Cuban realized that as soon as he had Finley (who didn't need to be maxed)... and Dirk maxed. This isn't a world in which you can max out everyone. You have to choose who you need to max.

dirno2000
05-31-2005, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by: madape
Pheonix won't blink at matching Johnson, and won't blink at extending Amare. In addition, they will probably sign another solid rotation player with their exception. This is a young team with an owner that doesn't mind spending a little money. Hopeing that they are a one-year wonder that will fall of the face of the Earth a'la the 2003 Dallas Mavericks is... wishful thinking.They won't fall off...they'll win 55-60 games a year on talent alone, but they won't go any further then the conference finals...they'll probably lose in the 2nd round next year. Steven Nash won't play better then he's playing this year, Marion and Amare are already questioning their roles and that small lineup is too easy for really good teams to exploit.

Evilmav2
05-31-2005, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
Marion and Amare are already questioning their roles

Exactly. Amare is already making noise in the Phoenix press about not wanting to play center anymore, and I'd like to know if anyone here can imagine that the Phoenix offense would have looked anywhere near as potent as it did this season if they had fielded a starting lineup of Nash, JJ, Marion, Stoudemire, and Jake Voskuhl (or whatever other journeyman or stiff they choose to start at the center position)? I'd bet that playing a big goof at the five spot next season would only hamper the offense-facilitating spacing that the shooting abilities of their small starting lineup accorded them in 04-05, and thus I 'd also bet that if Stoudemire's demands to play power forward are met, that might just might apply a destructive braking action to the much vaunted offensive circus of the Nash-era Phoenix Suns...

vjz
05-31-2005, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by: Evilmav2

Amare is already making noise in the Phoenix press about not wanting to play center anymore...



Anyone know why he is reluctant to play center? He seemed pretty awesome this season playing center...

Evilmav2
05-31-2005, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by: vjz

Originally posted by: Evilmav2

Amare is already making noise in the Phoenix press about not wanting to play center anymore...



Anyone know why he is reluctant to play center? He seemed pretty awesome this season playing center...

Well, Stoudemire's been publicly grumbling about playing center ever since the all-star game (where he answered a reporters question about playing at the 5 spot for D'antoni by saying, 'I'm not a center. I'm a basketball player. Lets leave it at that'), and as far as I understand it, his distaste for playing at the center position is derived from his fear that playing there will shorten his career, as well as from his general distaste for playing defense and fighting for position against physically larger players in the paint.

I'm sure Mike D'antoni and the vast majority of Phoenix Suns fandom would love it if Stoudemire were willing to continue playing at the center position, but Stoudemire has repeatedly and publicly expressed his antipathy toward that possibility, and the open question of what position the young big man will play for the Suns in the future, promises to be an extremely contentious one in his upcoming contract extension negotiations...

Bayliss
05-31-2005, 01:41 PM
Btw..... if the Suns don't decide to stay small..... It helps the Mavs tremendously because Marion guarding Dirk as a 4 is much more effective than Marion guarding Dirk as a 3. Because that means Stoudemire (or their center) will be guarding Josh Howard. That is a great matchup for Dallas.

chumdawg
05-31-2005, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000

Originally posted by: chumdawg
D2K, I'm afraid we aren't seeing it the same way. The way I'm seeing it, Eisley is already on their cap for this year. In fact, I'm almost certain this is true. So the way they can approach their offseason is this: sign someone for Eisley's cap slot. THEN resign their own guys (they should have plently of money to match any offers). Then sign someone for the MLE.

I'm sure I'm missing something. What am I missing?You're right, Eisley is on their cap this year...he doesn't come off until the summer of 2006. The thing is, there are no slots...that was the old CBA. In that agreement, after a contract expired you had a slot roughly the size of that contract to sign another player...even if you were over the cap.

So what I'm saying this: Chances are Joe Johnson is going to get a big contract this offseason. He's too good for somebody not to make a run at him and the Suns will have to let him go or match the big offer. $8 or $9 million sounds reasonable to me. Then they want to sign Amare to an extension so he never reaches FA and he's a max player. By the time Eisley's contract comes off the books next summer they'll already be at or above the cap so it won't matter.

The only way they have cap room is if they don't sign Amare to an extension this summer.That makes sense. I was thinking that Eisley's contract was due to come off the books THIS summer, and that might give them some flexibility. Whatever the case, I'm sure their management knows what they are doing and will find a way to add some depth to their already potent lineup.

Pirate
06-01-2005, 06:24 AM
Suns have NOT been shown to be a team with an owner willing to take on payroll. That idea is contrary to every thing that has been said, as well as to what the Suns have done since he took over. (The only thing "extra" he bought may have been that cheesy foam finger he wears on the sidelines!)

They have said they will not jump into luxury tax mode to keep JoeJ, which last year was at about 54M. Last year they carried only 12 players (not the allowable 15) on their roster. They tried all summer to get rid of Marion - they paid him a max deal then regretted it seemingly the next day. I dont see "big spender" indicated by any of that.

Without JoeJ they are already at 45M on only 9 players, and minimums will go up markedly in the new CBA for those empty slots. The new roster minimums in the new CBA are rumored to be slated for 14 not 11, which means even more slots they MUST pay someone at least minimum salary on, raising payroll farther. If they plan to spend an MLE on anyone, that lowers their room even more, if they have a 54M budget limit or thereabouts.

So will they actually keep JoeJ by shelling out the needed money, which almost certainly will put them into Luxury Tax mode? It is not anywhere close to a certainty. And if they do that, will they do anything else of note? I am very skeptical.

Pirate
06-01-2005, 06:28 AM
"The Suns own the rights to Eisley's expiring contract -- something close to $7 million -- that comes off of the salary cap in '06. This offer the Suns a fair amount of cap flexibility to re-ink Joe Johnson or Amare Stoudemire (both have extensions coming), or to parlay that cap figure into a trade for some much-needed depth. "

The guy at SI.com that wrote that is a total moron in understanding trade rules, cap ruules, etc. That is idiotic. They cant do a thing with "Eisley" other than count what they paid him as part of their cap - he isnt even on their roster.

madape
06-01-2005, 12:21 PM
I think what he meant was that the Suns can take on long term high-dollar contracts like Johnson and Stoudmire's knowing that Eisley's salary will come off their cap figure in two years. He was wrong in claiming that they can "trade" him. You can't trade someone who's not on the team. But his salary will come off the books in two years, meaning Pheonix is in a better position to re-sign two members of their all-star starting five.

capitalcity
06-01-2005, 10:45 PM
suck it cash.

keep chasing the impossible dream you money grubbing canuck.

Bayliss
06-01-2005, 11:01 PM
As much "love" as they are throwing the Suns you would think they won the series.

mary
06-01-2005, 11:10 PM
http://www.roadsidenut.com/fork804.jpg

dude1394
06-01-2005, 11:14 PM
Oh I am a happy mavs fan right now. Go fish.

mary
06-01-2005, 11:17 PM
What did MVP boy do in the second half? 1-10 or somesuch?

u2sarajevo
06-01-2005, 11:20 PM
I feel bad for Steve.....

Oh wait, I'm wrong. I was sitting on a thumbnail. I don't feel bad at all.

MavKikiNYC
06-01-2005, 11:29 PM
http://www.visiongateportal.com/images/nash_fish.jpg



With credits to mmmfast.

mary
06-01-2005, 11:32 PM
Very nice.

chumdawg
06-02-2005, 12:02 AM
It may feel really good right now to watch Stevie lose in the WCF, since goodness knows we couldn't sniff it. But don't think the Suns are going anywhere. I'm sure they have some more offseason genius in them.

MavKikiNYC
06-02-2005, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
Does Phoenix get credit for fantastic defense played? If they win Game Five--which they will--will thet get credit for great defense played? I'm just wondering.

Guess we'll never know.



It may feel really good right now to watch Stevie lose in the WCF,...

I personally can't relate to feeling good about seeing Nash lose. He had a great season. He was voted MVP. He deserves a full measure of credit for playing better for the Suns this year than he had for the Mavericks the past couple.


since goodness knows we couldn't sniff it.

I actually thought the Mavericks had a better team than the Suns this year, by the time the playoffs rolled around. What this series showed was that Cuban was right in the approach he took to rebuilding the Mavericks this year. The team the Mavericks were built to challenge was the Spurs, not the upstart, come-out-of-nowhere Suns. I feel pretty sure that the Mavericks would have given the Spurs a more competitive series than the Suns did. Hell, they might've even won TWO games.


But don't think the Suns are going anywhere.

Oddly, this sentence captures my feelings about the Suns as well. But from a polar opposite perspective.



I'm sure they have some more offseason genius in them.

Not this year.

chumdawg
06-02-2005, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC

Originally posted by: chumdawg
Does Phoenix get credit for fantastic defense played? If they win Game Five--which they will--will thet get credit for great defense played? I'm just wondering.

Guess we'll never know.



It may feel really good right now to watch Stevie lose in the WCF,...

I personally can't relate to feeling good about seeing Nash lose. He had a great season. He was voted MVP. He deserves a full measure of credit for playing better for the Suns this year than he had for the Mavericks the past couple.


since goodness knows we couldn't sniff it.Clearly their offense failed them.

I actually thought the Mavericks had a better team than the Suns this year, by the time the playoffs rolled around. What this series showed was that Cuban was right in the approach he took to rebuilding the Mavericks this year. The team the Mavericks were built to challenge was the Spurs, not the upstart, come-out-of-nowhere Suns. I feel pretty sure that the Mavericks would have given the Spurs a more competitive series than the Suns did. Hell, they might've even won TWO games.


But don't think the Suns are going anywhere.

Oddly, this sentence captures my feelings about the Suns as well. But from a polar opposite perspective.



I'm sure they have some more offseason genius in them.

Not this year.

dirno2000
06-02-2005, 12:35 AM
If I were Colangelo, I'd try to trade Richardson for a big man. The playoffs didn’t help his value, but he's their only remotely expendable part who could bring back anything of worth. I can’t see that team as currently constituted going any further then they went this season.

chumdawg
06-02-2005, 12:45 AM
I must have been quoting while you were editing...sorry 'bout the looks of the last post.

If you thought the Mavs were better poised for the postseason than the Suns, to what do you attribute the Mavs losing in six, on their home floor? Hangover from a tough Houston series?

I wouldn't say the Suns came from "out of nowhere." I'd say they came from out of July 1. That is blindingly obvious. In hindsight, at least. Certain people missed it on that day.

I'm interested in hearing why you believe the Suns won't be able to make their team better this offseason. Don't you think they could at least benefit from a grizzled veteran on the bench, the kind of guy who could be had for the veteran minimum? (An interesting question would be whether a guy like Alan Henderson would have given them more than a Stephen Hunter did.) Or, do you think they won't spend the MLE, or will bust with it if they do? Or not make any trades, if it comes to that? I'm just curious why you rule improvement out of hand.

If you're right about Cuban building this team to compete with the Spurs, then it's cruel irony that in doing so he managed to build the wall that keeps him from ever getting there. Well, I shouldn't say ever. Maybe in 2009, when we have all that roster flexibility.

dirno2000
06-02-2005, 08:46 AM
If you're right about Cuban building this team to compete with the Spurs, then it's cruel irony that in doing so he managed to build the wall that keeps him from ever getting there. Well, I shouldn't say ever. Maybe in 2009, when we have all that roster flexibility.You said this in another post...just curious, why do think that we won't be able to compete with the top teams in the West until 2009?

bo319
06-02-2005, 09:35 AM
Chum

I respect most of your posts in the forum and I respect your knowledge of the sport...but to expect Steve Nash to repeat this season is expecting a whole lot. Add that to the fact that untill JJohnson went down they had missed a combined 13 games to injury this season...expecting that to repeat is also very very unlikely. Teams will learn how to play Amare and he will become more of a jump shooter than slam dunker which while he will still score will make him less efficient. One thing to think about is that Phoenix gave away their lottery pick last season to Chicago...that pick was used on Luol Deng...he would've helped them this season and beyond but they didn't want to add the payroll.

4cwebb
06-02-2005, 09:44 AM
Best thing for the Suns to do after this series is shop Marion and/or QRich for a center, any center, with a semblance of an 18 foot jumper (I'm thinking even Luc Longley on the baseline would suffice). If Marion's not happy playing PF and spotting up for threes or catching lobs, then he's an idiot. He doesn't have the type of offensive game that facilitates running plays for him. The Nash-Amare pick and roll and JJohnson with the ball in his hands with the ability to create are the two most reliable plays the Suns have. QRich showed that he has degenerated into nothing but a three point shooter, which is sad. He had previously shown an ability to work effectively in the post against players that were even his size --- the fact that he couldn't do so against any of the Spurs perimeter defenders not named Bowen is a blow to his offensive game's credibility. Granted, the Suns may not have run that many plays with QRich in the low block since the Nash-Amare pick and roll was working so well, but even if they had, Q wouldn't have taken advantage with the way he was playing.

Problem for the Suns is that Marion is signed, for some idiotic reason, to a max deal, despite the fact that he's a guy very similar to Kenyon Martin (and probably Richard Jefferson to some extent) in that he can only thrive playing with one of the two best passing PGs in the league to be most effective. Otherwise, as I think we've seen when he's not playing with Kidd and/or Nash, he's not anywhere near the numbers he puts up this season on offense because he doesn't have guys finding him for easy looks around the basket.

Oh, and go Eastern Conference (preferably Pistons as I think they have a much more balanced offensive attack that can put the Spurs defense to the test more effectively than the one-and-a-half man game the Heat are trotting out in Wade (one) and Shaq (half).

chumdawg
06-02-2005, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by: dirno2000

If you're right about Cuban building this team to compete with the Spurs, then it's cruel irony that in doing so he managed to build the wall that keeps him from ever getting there. Well, I shouldn't say ever. Maybe in 2009, when we have all that roster flexibility.You said this in another post...just curious, why do think that we won't be able to compete with the top teams in the West until 2009?Because I don't think the management is committed to giving the present team, or the team of the next couple years, the resources they would need to compete with the Spurs, and soon to be Suns and Rockets, of the league. I think the management is looking three or four years down the road, to when Dirk is at the peak of his game and Howard and Daniels, hopefully Harris and Pavel, have developed. Once they are out from under Finley's contract, and these guys have seasoned, then they will try to make their run. Until then, they're just trying to make the best of what they have--and keep the fans interested.

chumdawg
06-02-2005, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by: bo319
Chum

I respect most of your posts in the forum and I respect your knowledge of the sport...but to expect Steve Nash to repeat this season is expecting a whole lot. Add that to the fact that untill JJohnson went down they had missed a combined 13 games to injury this season...expecting that to repeat is also very very unlikely. Teams will learn how to play Amare and he will become more of a jump shooter than slam dunker which while he will still score will make him less efficient. One thing to think about is that Phoenix gave away their lottery pick last season to Chicago...that pick was used on Luol Deng...he would've helped them this season and beyond but they didn't want to add the payroll.Steve Nash doesn't have to repeat this season for the Suns to remain among the top two or three teams in the conference. But out of curiosity, why do you expect that he won't repeat this season? Is there some kind of precedent for MVP's to drop off considerably in their level of play after they win the award?

I'm not so sure that teams will "learn how to play Amare." There are a few guys who teams have never learned how to play, and Amare may be one of them. Don't forget how young he is! It's easy to look at the game he displayed this postseason and think that he's already at the top of his game, but I can't imagine how that would be the case. What is he? 22? He could scary good a lot quicker than he gets worse. (Oh, and by the way, he had a pretty little jump shot going last night. God help the defenders if he does develop that weapon.)

I didn't realize that about the lottery pick. Interesting. I'll have to read up on that. They just dumped it because they didn't want to pay a rookie contract? That seems unusual.

On the injury thing...I don't know. It seems a little like a weird argument to me. Yeah, they had a great year, but they actually got to use all their guys all year. I just don't know. You might be able to make a case that a good, long injury would have helped the Suns more than it hurt them. Maybe if some of the guys on their bench had played more in the regular season they would have been useful come playoff time. I don't know. Everybody was pretty healthy in the postseason, with the biggest exception being the games Joe Johnson missed.

kg_veteran
06-02-2005, 02:53 PM
Chum, the Suns traded the No. 7 pick to Chicago to clear enough cap room to sign Quentin Richardson. They could have taken either Deng or Iguodala at that spot. It looks like maybe they should have taken that route, but naturally that's hindsight.

As I see it, the Suns are in a bit of a quandary.

If they keep Stoudemire at center, they're going to remain a poor defensive team that's unable to protect the paint or slow down perimeter penetration. Stoudemire, Richardson, and Nash are all really bad defenders, and Marion can't stop a PF with a consistent low post game.

If, on the other hand, the Suns look to add a center to move Stoudemire and Marion back to their natural positions, they might get better defensively depending upon who the center is, but their offensive style will likely suffer as a result. The reason that Stoudemire is able to dominate in the paint offensively is that teams have to play him man-to-man. If they double right now, the other 4 Suns make the opposition pay. If you put a defensive specialist center out there (I don't think anyone can reasonably expect the Suns to add a center that is even average defensively AND offensively for the MLE), the opposition will simply double Stoudemire and take him out of the game. Nash certainly helps Stoudemire get easy hoops, but the Suns scheme of having 5 scorers that makes it impossible to double really helps Stoudemire a lot. Take that away, and IMO he's a lot closer to the 16 ppg scorer he was in year 2 than the 26 ppg scorer he is in year 3.

dalmations202
06-02-2005, 03:06 PM
The biggest reason I see the Suns falling off, is because this year, no one developed their team to defend against them. Everyone was built to play SA, Minn, and LA with Shaq. Phoenix wasn't a threat, so personnel were not picked up based upon their play. Now, this next year, GM's will be trying to find personnel answers for them, coaches will be trying to develop defenses for them, and players will be gearing up for them.

Man, they really reminded me of the Mavericks of '03. Run - n - gun, fill it up, play no D. The only difference I saw was Amare being and inside force, and going off for 35 a night, verses Dirk draining threes and going off for 30+. Neither got it done on the defensive end though.

I really think they have some issues though, if they want to get to the top.

kg_veteran
06-02-2005, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by: dalmations202
The biggest reason I see the Suns falling off, is because this year, no one developed their team to defend against them. Everyone was built to play SA, Minn, and LA with Shaq. Phoenix wasn't a threat, so personnel were not picked up based upon their play. Now, this next year, GM's will be trying to find personnel answers for them, coaches will be trying to develop defenses for them, and players will be gearing up for them.

Man, they really reminded me of the Mavericks of '03. Run - n - gun, fill it up, play no D. The only difference I saw was Amare being and inside force, and going off for 35 a night, verses Dirk draining threes and going off for 30+. Neither got it done on the defensive end though.

I really think they have some issues though, if they want to get to the top.

Good points.

chumdawg
06-02-2005, 04:19 PM
Chum, the Suns traded the No. 7 pick to Chicago to clear enough cap room to sign Quentin Richardson. They could have taken either Deng or Iguodala at that spot. It looks like maybe they should have taken that route, but naturally that's hindsight.Not sure I understand, KG. The draft was well before the free agency period, was it not?

Misfit Mav
06-02-2005, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Chum, the Suns traded the No. 7 pick to Chicago to clear enough cap room to sign Quentin Richardson. They could have taken either Deng or Iguodala at that spot. It looks like maybe they should have taken that route, but naturally that's hindsight.

As I see it, the Suns are in a bit of a quandary.

If they keep Stoudemire at center, they're going to remain a poor defensive team that's unable to protect the paint or slow down perimeter penetration. Stoudemire, Richardson, and Nash are all really bad defenders, and Marion can't stop a PF with a consistent low post game.

If, on the other hand, the Suns look to add a center to move Stoudemire and Marion back to their natural positions, they might get better defensively depending upon who the center is, but their offensive style will likely suffer as a result. The reason that Stoudemire is able to dominate in the paint offensively is that teams have to play him man-to-man. If they double right now, the other 4 Suns make the opposition pay. If you put a defensive specialist center out there (I don't think anyone can reasonably expect the Suns to add a center that is even average defensively AND offensively for the MLE), the opposition will simply double Stoudemire and take him out of the game. Nash certainly helps Stoudemire get easy hoops, but the Suns scheme of having 5 scorers that makes it impossible to double really helps Stoudemire a lot. Take that away, and IMO he's a lot closer to the 16 ppg scorer he was in year 2 than the 26 ppg scorer he is in year 3.

Great post... the dilemna of going small and not defending or going big and hampering the offense was exactly the problem of the old Mavericks. Although I hate to have lost Nash, I'm glad we don't have to face that frustrating quandary any more.

Plus, the Suns have talked about continuing to search for a "true 5," and don't have much they can use to acquire one. That makes me think they will be going on the same goose-chase that we were on for the last several seasons. Damp has been a big disapointment in a lot of ways, but I would guess that the Suns would love to have him.

kg_veteran
06-02-2005, 04:42 PM
Chum - Draft was on June 24; free agency period began July 1. I guess, to be honest, I should have said the Suns were trying to clear as much room as possible under the cap to be able to sign Nash and then hopefully another player. By trading the No. 7 pick away, they added $2.2m in cap room.

chumdawg
06-02-2005, 04:46 PM
Okay, gotcha. That does seem like a curious move. Wonder where they would have been if the Clips matched on Richardson...

Misfit Mav
06-02-2005, 04:58 PM
If I remember correctly, the word in the press was that they were trying to free up as much cap room as possible to make Kobe an offer. If that was true, the "consolation prize" probably turned out to be better for them, although Kobe and Amare would be pretty scary as well. I'm not sure about the timing, but if they didn't get Q, they might have made a run at Damp.

kg_veteran
06-02-2005, 04:58 PM
They would have spent the money on somebody else, I suppose. Still, at the time the Suns traded their No. 7 pick, they didn't know exactly what the salary cap number was going to be. Some estimates were as low as $42-43m, while others were as high as $45m (from what I can recall). The Suns were making absolutely sure that they had enough money to woo Nash away. That part of it definitely worked, and it was an added bonus when they were able to nab Richardson. Or at least so they thought at the time.

kg_veteran
06-02-2005, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by: Misfit Mav
Great post... the dilemna of going small and not defending or going big and hampering the offense was exactly the problem of the old Mavericks. Although I hate to have lost Nash, I'm glad we don't have to face that frustrating quandary any more.

Right. The long-term goal is that the Mavs will match up well with any team they face, both offensively and defensively. They need improved play from several areas to get there, but all of the pieces except for a backup center they'll use are in place. And if one of the young projects can pan out, they might have their backup center.


Plus, the Suns have talked about continuing to search for a "true 5," and don't have much they can use to acquire one. That makes me think they will be going on the same goose-chase that we were on for the last several seasons. Damp has been a big disapointment in a lot of ways, but I would guess that the Suns would love to have him.

No question. The Suns would love to have Dampier. Then they'd at least have a defensive presence and rebounder in the middle to take pressure off Stoudemire guarding the rim, and they could get Richardson out of the starting lineup, which would help the perimeter defense.

dirno2000
06-02-2005, 11:40 PM
Teams will learn how to play Amare and he will become more of a jump shooter than slam dunker which while he will still score will make him less efficient.

The following is a clip from a PXH newspaper:
The Suns, in an apparent compromise to Stoudemire's reluctance to play center again next season in D'Antoni's small-ball lineup, sent him home for the summer as the team's designated go-to player next season.

He earned the promotion with a stunning postseason that included averaging 37.0 points against Tim Duncan and the Spurs and 29.9 points overall in the playoffs.

The redefined role will have him pick-and-roll more often with Nash on the perimeter and free him to shoot outside, drive inside or pass.

Did someone say Magic Johnson?

"It's playing the position I played this year, center, but with a different twist - more of a perimeter, inside-outside game," said Stoudemire. "I'll do a lot more."

He added, "I've always dreamed of being in that position, the go-to guy. With this team, once I polish my game up a little more, I'll be able to take us to the promised land."

Misfit Mav
06-03-2005, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by: dirno2000

Teams will learn how to play Amare and he will become more of a jump shooter than slam dunker which while he will still score will make him less efficient.

The following is a clip from a PXH newspaper:
The Suns, in an apparent compromise to Stoudemire's reluctance to play center again next season in D'Antoni's small-ball lineup, sent him home for the summer as the team's designated go-to player next season.

He earned the promotion with a stunning postseason that included averaging 37.0 points against Tim Duncan and the Spurs and 29.9 points overall in the playoffs.

The redefined role will have him pick-and-roll more often with Nash on the perimeter and free him to shoot outside, drive inside or pass.

Did someone say Magic Johnson?

"It's playing the position I played this year, center, but with a different twist - more of a perimeter, inside-outside game," said Stoudemire. "I'll do a lot more."

He added, "I've always dreamed of being in that position, the go-to guy. With this team, once I polish my game up a little more, I'll be able to take us to the promised land."

Wow, this is an odd developement. Does this mean they want to make him into a point forward, and let him handle the ball instead of Steve? Why does that sound familiar? Did they really just compare him to Magic Johnson?

Also, the promised land quote is funny. Stoudemire's head may be the only thing bigger than his talent.

MavKikiNYC
06-03-2005, 02:37 PM
Why am I not more impressed with Stoudemire? I'm willing to be, but I'm not.

His game looks pretty one-dimensional to me. He reminds me alternately of a young Bob McAdoo (unleashed to roam and go for blocks on defense, with strict instrucitons not to foul; replace jumpers with dunks), or for a more contemporary reference, an Antonio McDyess (raw, high-flying, more talent than understanding).

He's right to be concerned about playing out of position at center. Even if 90% of the players he faces are less physically talented than he is, it's having to go up against players 40-50 pounds bigger than he is night-after-night-after-night that will increase his chance of injury. And then he really could become another Antonio McDyess, playing out a contract as a role player on somebody's bench.

And the only thing Magic about his game will be if someone is able to make his delusions of grandeur *poof* disappear.

GP
06-03-2005, 03:23 PM
Amare's ego is so big that it might just be a separate entity all together. Only player still playing in Magic's league might be LeBron James. He's definitely the only one in my opinion. Amare may help take the Suns to the promised land; however, he still needs to learn how to dribble the damned ball and pass the damned ball. If Phoenix takes the ball out of Nash's hand it will be a huge mistake.

As for this thing about the Suns wanting Dampier you guys are just fooling yourselves. The Mavs were bidding against themselves when they did that sign and trade. Everyone in the League has Cuban down as their favorite Mark. Dampier is a career backup who happened to have 1 decent contract year season when the actual starter was injured all year. I will not be surprised if Dampiers career goes down the TAW path in the near future. Like years 3 - 5 of that albatross of a contract. The Suns are going to want a center that can run up and down the floor as they are a team that relies on pushing the tempo. Dampier isn't that guy. He runs like an 80 year who just took some Celebrex or something.

MavKikiNYC
06-03-2005, 07:20 PM
Dampier isn't that guy. He runs like an 80 year who just took some Celebrex or something.

Since the subject has been brought up.....

They way Damp runs reminds me of a woman basketball player....one about 6.4-6.5, kind of top-heavy and stiff legged.

It's maddening.

MavKikiNYC
06-04-2005, 11:37 AM
Previously posted article.