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View Full Version : Finley vs. Manu...revisited


Hitman
06-09-2005, 11:30 PM
To all the people who said that Finley was better than Manu

Or even that when Finley was at his peak he was better than Manu at his peak

I ask you to now say... you were dead wrong. MaxPower, MavsFanFinley...and there were many others.

I don't want to dig up the old thread.

Just say it.

Manu Ginbolli is better than Michael Finley ever was.

And

It is not even close.

Nash13
06-09-2005, 11:52 PM
Get a life. Seriously.

There was a point where Gary Payton was better than Mike Bibby. Finley may not be the 3rd best swingman on this team. It's clear his better days are behind him, but that's just picking on Finley.

dirno2000
06-09-2005, 11:54 PM
I can't believe you're still talking about this...

This was a thread from two years ago and weather you want to admit it or not, Finley was better than Manu at that time...

...like I said last year, if the pro Manu camp wants to revisit this every year, eventually Manu will pass Finley...

So in order to win the arguement, you reframe it to "Manu has more upside than Finley"...

Nash13
06-09-2005, 11:56 PM
Manu Ginbolli is better than Michael Finley ever was.

And

It is not even close.


If you think that, you are basketball ignorant.

chumdawg
06-10-2005, 01:09 AM
Manu is a mofo.

poohrichardson
06-10-2005, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by: Nash13

Manu Ginbolli is better than Michael Finley ever was.

And

It is not even close.


If you think that, you are basketball ignorant.


God forbid they have a different opinion than most Mavs fans..

Nash13
06-10-2005, 08:57 AM
Hey smartguy, he is a Mavs fan. Is Ginobli better than Finley now, of course. Is he better than Finley ever was, certainly not.

mary
06-10-2005, 09:33 AM
It smells like asparagus in here.

Hitman
06-10-2005, 09:45 AM
When all this huballo started in the summer 2003, I stated that I would rather have Manu over Finley. Manu was coming off a 27 year old rookie campaign in which he averaged 8-9 points a game (but was hampered the first 3 months of the year with an ankle injury.) I said that in 2003-2004, that Manu was going to be better than Finley...I just loved the way he plays.

Manu put up about 14 ppg in that year, and Finley outscored him on significantly more shots than Ginobolli. I thought Manu was better than, and then he took it to a new level last summer and hasn't stopped.

Look -- I am going to drop it. I came home from watching the game last night and went on D-M.com and post. But....I have a sneaky feeling that the Pistons are going to swarm Duncan in this series and that Gino will pull the upset and walk off with Finals MVP.

We shall see.

Drbio
06-10-2005, 01:25 PM
Tickets to a Spurs Championship game: $125.00

Parking: $10.00

Beers, nachos and a hotdog or three: $25.00

Being eaten up since the summer of 2003 and finally waiting until the moment is right to give a misplaced "I told you so":: retarded.

fin4life
06-10-2005, 01:51 PM
In Finley's prime, he was at least equally athletic as Manu, probaly more athletic. He is obviously the better shooter. He we just as tough or tougher, considering he did not sit out a single game for his first 5 or 6+ seasons. Manu is much better right now, but finley was definetly better in his prime. There is no question.

Hitman
06-10-2005, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by: Drbio
Tickets to a Spurs Championship game: $125.00

Parking: $10.00

Beers, nachos and a hotdog or three: $25.00

Being eaten up since the summer of 2003 and finally waiting until the moment is right to give a misplaced "I told you so":: retarded.

God you are such a loser sometimes.

jayC
06-10-2005, 03:13 PM
Finley always gets overhyped on this board. Manu Ginobli has been a beast in the playoffs. He has scored at least 20 points in every playoff game this year. He won the gold medal and now he is about to add a championship ring to his collection.

Although it could be debated that with Duncan; Finleywould be a beast as well.

LRB
06-10-2005, 03:42 PM
Finley always gets overhyped on this board.

Hardly. Finely gets ripped more on this board than probably any where else. There's been threads suggesting trading Finely for Brian Grant. I hardly call that overhyping. If anything Fin gets less than his due on this board.

Fin is a past his prime but still very good shooting guard. In his prime Fin was the best player on the Mavs and carried this team. Manu is at best the 2nd best player on his team and started out much lower. Manu is good, but if anyone is being overhyped it is him. A lot of people would look really good playing on the Spurs with Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Brue Bowen, and company and with Pop coaching.

Manu is definitely better this year than Fin was. And barring injury to Manu or a miraculous turnaround by Fin I don't see that changing since Manu was the better player by a good bit. However there are tons of variables when comparing the two in ther primes. Very subjective IMO.

Hitman
06-10-2005, 03:47 PM
LRB-- respect your opinions, but much like DWade w/ Shaq, Manu has proven many times that he can step it up to yet another level when Duncan is hurt and/ or on the bench. I think when all is said and done in this series, Manu will be talked about when mentioning the best 2's in the game. The guy is that good.

Thespiralgoeson
06-10-2005, 08:27 PM
Finley in his prime was a phenominal player who carried this team through the worst days of its history. He was more every bit as athletic as Manu, and a much much better shooter, not to mention a great leader. Finley in his prime would eat Manu alive. And JayC, I've only been on this board a few months, but I've seen countless posts ripping Finley, calling for him to be traded. Post after post, people suggest trading him for practically nothing, just to get rid of his contract.

poohrichardson
06-10-2005, 08:47 PM
I don't think Manu has even hit his prime yet.. nor do I think Finley -- in his prime -- will be able to compare when it does happen.

Hitman
06-10-2005, 10:50 PM
People act like Finley is 40. The guy is 32, just two years older than Steve Nash. Jordan retired and then won MVPs older than Finley. Magic won the MVP when he was older than Finley. Clyde Drexler was 1st team all nba and Finley's age. He is not some elder statesman. He is 32.

The fact is -- Michael Finley is not much different than he was 2 or 3 years ago. The big difference is he does not get as many minutes -- or as many shots -- as he did then. THAT is the major difference. Not any huge drop off in his game.

mavsfanforever
06-10-2005, 11:34 PM
If there is any upside to Manu's game I have to say that is very scary.

poohrichardson
06-10-2005, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by: Nash13
Hey smartguy, he is a Mavs fan. Is Ginobli better than Finley now, of course. Is he better than Finley ever was, certainly not.

Again.. your opinion. By no means a fact.

Nash13
06-11-2005, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by: poohrichardson

Originally posted by: Nash13
Hey smartguy, he is a Mavs fan. Is Ginobli better than Finley now, of course. Is he better than Finley ever was, certainly not.

Again.. your opinion. By no means a fact.


Oh hash, i forgot it's a fact that Ginobli is better than Finley.

mavsman
06-11-2005, 06:37 PM
Actually Hitman, if you want to vindicate your pov, you should at least be able to spell the guy's name. If you wore an Argentinian jersey with "Ginbolli" or "Ginobolli" on the back in Buenos Aires, you'd be in a whole lot of inconvenience in no time.

Drbio
06-11-2005, 09:32 PM
God you are such a loser sometimes.

Better than batting a thousand like you always do. I'm sure the irony of your post made most laugh.

poohrichardson
06-11-2005, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by: Nash13

Originally posted by: poohrichardson

Originally posted by: Nash13
Hey smartguy, he is a Mavs fan. Is Ginobli better than Finley now, of course. Is he better than Finley ever was, certainly not.

Again.. your opinion. By no means a fact.


Oh hash, i forgot it's a fact that Ginobli is better than Finley.


I don't know anyone who said it was.. on the other hand, you've called anyone who thinks Manu is better to be "basketball ignorant," when it's really, "someone who shares a different opinion from me."

Thespiralgoeson
06-14-2005, 08:37 AM
Finley's best season ('99-00):

22.6 ppg
5.3 apg
6.3 rpg
.820 FT%
.401 3P%
.457 FG%
42.2 mpg

Ginbobili's best season (current)

16.0 ppg
3.9 apg
4.4 rpg
.803 FT%
.376 3P%
.471 FG%
29.6 mpg

I'd say Finley wins that battle. Sure, Manu has a slightly better FG%, and significantly fewer minutes, but Finley was the leader of his team, whereas Manu is the sidekick. Finley in his prime > Manu


originally posted by: Hitman
Manu Ginbolli is better than Michael Finley ever was.

And

It is not even close.

If you were just trying to piss us off, it worked. If you honestly believe what you say, then you either don't know how to look up stats, or you're just a moron.

Drbio
06-14-2005, 09:32 AM
This is a case where sour grapes were making good whine.

rakesh.s
06-14-2005, 01:59 PM
Reggie Miller was on the dan patrick show a few mins ago and said that Manu is better than Vince Carter and Dirk...I don't know about being better than Dirk, but it's a toss up between him and Vince Carter.

dirno2000
06-14-2005, 02:23 PM
I don't know about being better than Dirk, but it's a toss up between him and Vince Carter.A tossup between Manu and Vince Carter? It's not even close...this Manu thing is getting out of hand. Have we not learned by now how much better a perimeter player looks with a dominant big man?

LRB
06-14-2005, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000

I don't know about being better than Dirk, but it's a toss up between him and Vince Carter.A tossup between Manu and Vince Carter? It's not even close...this Manu thing is getting out of hand. Have we not learned by now how much better a perimeter player looks with a dominant big man?

I don't even know if it has to be a dominant big man. I remember Cornbread Maxwell being finals MVP while playing beside Bird.

I'll give Manu credit, he's having a pretty good playoff run so far. But the question is can he do it over a whole season like he's doing now? We'll see, but right now it looks like much ado about not that much.

rakesh.s
06-14-2005, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000

I don't know about being better than Dirk, but it's a toss up between him and Vince Carter.A tossup between Manu and Vince Carter? It's not even close...this Manu thing is getting out of hand. Have we not learned by now how much better a perimeter player looks with a dominant big man?

I don't think Vince Carter is even in the discussion if he had given it his all in the last 2-3 years..That's the only reason I said it was a toss-up.

Misfit Mav
06-14-2005, 03:38 PM
It's just a case of a good player being hyped up after a great playoff run-- it happens. People need something to talk about. One thing I will say on Ginobili's behalf is that he plays so hard for being such a talented player. He does all the 12th man things even though he's the second best player on his team. That's one of the reasons he's getting more respect than a guy like Carter, who's clearly more talented but doesn't put in the same effort.

Misfit Mav
06-14-2005, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by: Hitman
I ask you to now say... you were dead wrong. MaxPower, MavsFanFinley...and there were many others.

Now that's just petty.

kg_veteran
06-14-2005, 04:02 PM
What a silly thread. Back when the argument took place, Finley WAS better than Manu. Hitman, you're better than that.

SaltwaterChaffy
06-14-2005, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by: Misfit Mav
It's just a case of a good player being hyped up after a great playoff run-- it happens. People need something to talk about. One thing I will say on Ginobili's behalf is that he plays so hard for being such a talented player. He does all the 12th man things even though he's the second best player on his team. That's one of the reasons he's getting more respect than a guy like Carter, who's clearly more talented but doesn't put in the same effort.

This post is exactly on point. Remember two weeks ago when Wade was the next Jordan?

poohrichardson
06-14-2005, 07:16 PM
God forbid anyone looks beyond statistics... it doesn't take any special ability to copy and paste a bunch of numbers. However, if you can't just objectively look at the fact that Ginobili has been deep in the playoffs for all three years of his career, and been second best on his team (only to the best player in the world), AND the biggest difference maker this postseason.. well, I just kind of feel bad for you.

dirno2000
06-14-2005, 08:05 PM
Stop being so dramatic poohrichardson it doesn't take any special ability to exaggerate the facts to make your point when you can't do it with stats either. Two years ago Manu was nowhere near the best player on the team. Last year they lost in the 2nd round so if they went deep into the playoffs so did the Mavs this year.

All we're saying is that he needs to bring it night in and night out before he's worthy of the kind of praise that he's getting.

Misfit Mav
06-14-2005, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by: SaltwaterChaffy

Originally posted by: Misfit Mav
It's just a case of a good player being hyped up after a great playoff run-- it happens. People need something to talk about. One thing I will say on Ginobili's behalf is that he plays so hard for being such a talented player. He does all the 12th man things even though he's the second best player on his team. That's one of the reasons he's getting more respect than a guy like Carter, who's clearly more talented but doesn't put in the same effort.

This post is exactly on point. Remember two weeks ago when Wade was the next Jordan?

Heh, heh... watching the intro to game three and Bill Walton just called Manu "pure Larry Bird."

The guy's great: he won a gold medal and is soon to get his second ring. He clearly knows what it takes to win. But the hype is just silly. The media needs someone to talk about, and it doesn't help that the best player in the finals has little popular appeal.

poohrichardson
06-14-2005, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
Stop being so dramatic poohrichardson it doesn't take any special ability to exaggerate the facts to make your point when you can't do it with stats either. Two years ago Manu was nowhere near the best player on the team. Last year they lost in the 2nd round so if they went deep into the playoffs so did the Mavs this year.

All we're saying is that he needs to bring it night in and night out before he's worthy of the kind of praise that he's getting.

He DOES bring it every night.. 99% of the forums don't realize that because all they look at is the box score. If you watch the guy play you'd realize he's one of the very few that plays it exactly like it's meant to be played.

AND, for those number crunchers, he's also put up huge numbers throughout the postseason this year.. so the Finley argument is pretty much null and void, in my opinion.

dirno2000
06-14-2005, 09:18 PM
He DOES bring it every night.. 99% of the forums don't realize that because all they look at is the box score. If you watch the guy play you'd realize he's one of the very few that plays it exactly like it's meant to be played.and that makes him a nice player, not the superstar everyone is now making him out to be...he needs to play this way for 82 games. He's shooting 67% from the 3-point line...he's hot right now but Jaron Jackson got hot one year against the Lakers..it happens. Not saying that he's Jaron Jackson, just that sometimes you get hot at the right time.

#1MavsFan
06-14-2005, 11:05 PM
He didn't bring it today, and was pretty much a non-factor. He seems to disappear completely every once in a while.

LRB
06-14-2005, 11:13 PM
Guess Manu's a total bust after tonight's game. Looks like his career is over. He should think about retiring. If the Spurs lose the championship, it will be all his fault. BTW this is the knee jerk thread right? i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

dirno2000
06-15-2005, 01:08 AM
Here's an article from ESPN's John Hollinger that puts Manu in perspective.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Manu Ginobili is the next superstar. Manu Ginobili is the MVP of the Finals. Manu Ginobili saved a drowning puppy and cured cancer.

After his dominating efforts in the first two games of the Finals, we were overwhelmed by a torrent of Manu-mania. But we should have known better. Ginobili scored 26 and 27 points in the first two games, which was certainly impressive. But can you guess how many times he had consecutive games of 26 of more in the season's first 98 games?

The Pistons held Ginobili to just two of six from the field.

Zero. And keep in mind, this was against the run of the mill NBA competition -- not a defense of Detroit's outstanding caliber.

Translation: We should have expected a letdown in Game 3, because Manu was playing over his head. Tuesday's lopsided defeat provided the reality check, as the recently anointed star fell back to earth with nearly as many turnovers (six) as points (seven). Ginobili got off to a bad start right from the get-go, injuring his thigh in a collision with Tayshaun Prince early in the first quarter. He ended it even worse, failing to score a point after halftime.

Nonetheless, Manu's rough night was the result of much more than just an early bump. Ginobili certainly didn't beat around the bush in his post-game analysis.

"I just didn't play well," he said. "I didn't make shots. I turned the ball over a lot. That's it."

And the leg? "I'm all right. Just one of those things that happens every other game."

Of course, Ginobili wasn't competing in any empty gym. Detroit improved its tactics against Ginobili after playing back on its heels in the first two games.

"One thing we tried to do was pressure him," Pistons guard Richard Hamilton said. "We think that we want to turn him into a jump shooter and just kept backing off of him. Tonight, we kept the pressure on."

As a result, Ginobili wasn't allowed to dribble by himself up top while he sized up the defense and contemplate his next move. Instead, he had to contend with ball pressure from Hamilton or Prince.

It meant that sometimes Ginobili slipped past the first defender, but since Ginobili couldn't choose the moment he rarely had teammates in the right spots when help defenders arrived.

Not that Game 3 was indicative of Ginobili's real ability. While 26-point nights aren't the norm for Ginobili, neither are six-turnover train wrecks. Those just represent the two extremes of his normal performance level. Unfortunately, we tend to overreact to nearly everything we see in a short series, and this was no exception. Ginobili is a fine player and a worthy All-Star selection, but as Game 3 showed, we needn't mint that MVP trophy just yet.

poohrichardson
06-15-2005, 04:52 AM
Tonight proved exactly what I've been saying about Ginobili.. he's the biggest difference maker on the Spurs roster. If he plays poorly, the Spurs lay an egg. If he plays well, the Spurs rarely lose. It was just a rare off-game for him, that's all. I'm still feeling him for Finals MVP if the Spurs win the title, though.

dirno2000
06-15-2005, 08:14 AM
Tonight proved exactly what I've been saying about Ginobili.. he's the biggest difference maker on the Spurs roster. If he plays poorly, the Spurs lay an egg. If he plays well, the Spurs rarely lose. It was just a rare off-game for him, that's all. I'm still feeling him for Finals MVP if the Spurs win the title, though.Tim Duncan's 5-15 night probably had someting to do with the loss.

poohrichardson
06-15-2005, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000

Tonight proved exactly what I've been saying about Ginobili.. he's the biggest difference maker on the Spurs roster. If he plays poorly, the Spurs lay an egg. If he plays well, the Spurs rarely lose. It was just a rare off-game for him, that's all. I'm still feeling him for Finals MVP if the Spurs win the title, though.Tim Duncan's 5-15 night probably had someting to do with the loss.


The Spurs have won before with Duncan out with an injury, or just having a poor game. Rarely will that happen if Manu plays poorly.

However, the Mavs seemed fine this year whether Finley was lighting it up or laying an egg.

LRB
06-15-2005, 05:33 PM
The Spurs have won before with Duncan out with an injury, or just having a poor game. Rarely will that happen if Manu plays poorly.

However, the Mavs seemed fine this year whether Finley was lighting it up or laying an egg.

Well isn't it true that the Spurs have won with Ginobli out hurt, and isn't it rare that the Spurs win with Duncan having a poor game?

As for the Finely reference, "seemed" really doesn't mean anything or could mean everything. Vague is the word I'm looking for I believe. But when Fin was hot we beat Phoenix in Phoenix. I would say that it definitely mattered there since Phoenix beat us the other 2 times.

LRB
06-15-2005, 05:57 PM
Ok being the anal retentive kind of person that I am and being extremely bored today, I looked up all of SA losses this year and guess what, the Spurs did not lose 1 single time that Ginobli was out and Duncan was in. Not in the regular season and not in the post season. Of course the Spurs lost several timew with Ginobli in and Duncan out.

Just goes to show you how Ginobli has become the most overhyped player in the NBA currently.

dirno2000
06-15-2005, 05:58 PM
The Spurs have won before with Duncan out with an injury, or just having a poor game. Rarely will that happen if Manu plays poorly.The Spurs were 6-2 without Ginobilli this year...you're starting to border on the ridiculous territory of suggesting that Ginobilli is more important to the team's fortunes than Duncan.

LRB
06-15-2005, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000

The Spurs have won before with Duncan out with an injury, or just having a poor game. Rarely will that happen if Manu plays poorly.The Spurs were 6-2 without Ginobilli this year...you're starting to border on the ridiculous territory of suggesting that Ginobilli is more important to the team's fortunes than Duncan.

And the 2 losses, Duncan was out as well. Border has been crossed.

LRB
06-17-2005, 01:39 AM
Looks like the NBA's most overrated player failed to make much of a difference again with only 12 pts.

poohrichardson
06-17-2005, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by: LRB
Looks like the NBA's most overrated player failed to make much of a difference again with only 12 pts.

Jesus, the most overrated player in the league?

Not Yao? Not Tracy McGrady? Not Steve Francis? Not Peja Stojakovic? Not Quentin Richardson? Jason Richardson? Kevin Garnett? Lebron James?

How can you pick Manu Ginobili, who is nothing more than a great success story and an incredible team player, as the most overrated player in the league when these other guys I've mentioned haven't even played in the Finals?!

LRB
06-17-2005, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by: poohrichardson

Originally posted by: LRB
Looks like the NBA's most overrated player failed to make much of a difference again with only 12 pts.

Jesus, the most overrated player in the league?

Not Yao? Not Tracy McGrady? Not Steve Francis? Not Peja Stojakovic? Not Quentin Richardson? Jason Richardson? Kevin Garnett? Lebron James?

How can you pick Manu Ginobili, who is nothing more than a great success story and an incredible team player, as the most overrated player in the league when these other guys I've mentioned haven't even played in the Finals?!

I guess that makes Steve Kerr better than Ginobli because Kerr has more rings? Playing in the finals can be nothing more than being lucky enough to be on the right team, or to be on the team with the right superstar. Tim Duncan is the main reason the Spurs are in the finals. Ginobli is a complimentary player at best, not a superstar. Put Yao, McGrady, Peja, Garnett, or Lebron on the Spurs instead of overrated boy Ginobli and not only do they make the finals, but they most likely do so in a much more dominant manner. Put Q or Richardson or Francis on the Spurs instead of Ginobli and they still probably make the finals. But I don't think that Q, Richardson, nor Francis are currently being overrated near as much as Ginobli is. When Reggie Miller comes on TV and says Ginobli is better than Dirk, you definitely know that some major overrating is going on when a second banana at best is being rated over one of the leagues top 1st bananas.

Don't get me wrong, Ginobli's a good player and I'd love to have him on the Mavs. I'm just way sick of how overrated and over hyped he's become lately.

Nash13
06-17-2005, 02:40 PM
I don't know anyone who said it was.. on the other hand, you've called anyone who thinks Manu is better to be "basketball ignorant," when it's really, "someone who shares a different opinion from me."

Some things are just common sense. For example, Wilt Chamberlain is a superior player to Shawn Bradley. And anybody who doesn't believe that is basketball ignorant.

bo319
06-17-2005, 04:04 PM
Some things are just common sense. For example, Wilt Chamberlain is a superior player to Shawn Bradley. And anybody who doesn't believe that is basketball ignorant.

I think Shawn could take ole Wilt nowadays.
The BWS VS the Actual stiff.
I'd give you Wilt +10...i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

Thespiralgoeson
06-17-2005, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by: poohrichardson

Jesus, the most overrated player in the league?

Not Yao? Not Tracy McGrady? Not Steve Francis? Not Peja Stojakovic? Not Quentin Richardson? Jason Richardson? Kevin Garnett? Lebron James?


And here I thought McGrady had earned our respect this year... I still don't see where people get the idea that McGrady is overrated. If it's because of his lack of playoff success, then you simply have to look at the teams he's been on. Orlando? That team sucked horribly. Houston? His first year, and it's hard to win when your teammates' names are Bob Sura, David Wesley, Ryan Bowen, Mike James, Clearance Weatherspoon... He and Yao are all that team's got, but McGrady was unstoppable. I agree with you about Peja, Francis, and Q-Rich. Garnett and Lebron are debateable, but please, take McGrady off that list.

poohrichardson
06-19-2005, 09:45 PM
McGrady still hasn't accomplished a damn thing in his career.. sure, he torched us, but there's a good reason that the Rockets didn't win the series: they don't have a leader. They have T-Mac, who will shoot forced fadeaways until his arms fall off, but he's nothing but a guy that puts up good numbers.

poohrichardson
06-19-2005, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by: Nash13

I don't know anyone who said it was.. on the other hand, you've called anyone who thinks Manu is better to be "basketball ignorant," when it's really, "someone who shares a different opinion from me."

Some things are just common sense. For example, Wilt Chamberlain is a superior player to Shawn Bradley. And anybody who doesn't believe that is basketball ignorant.



Yeah, and the talent gap between the two of those players is enormous. Between Finley and Manu, it's just as wide a gap.. except Finley is the Shawn Bradley to Manu Ginobili's Wilt Chamberlain. Live with it.

dirno2000
06-19-2005, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by: poohrichardson
McGrady still hasn't accomplished a damn thing in his career.. sure, he torched us, but there's a good reason that the Rockets didn't win the series: they don't have a leader. They have T-Mac, who will shoot forced fadeaways until his arms fall off, but he's nothing but a guy that puts up good numbers.Do you honestly think that the Houston series would have gone 7 if Houston had Manu instead of T-Mac? He was a virtual one man wrecking crew on offense and he guarded one of the top offensive players in the game on the other end... I donít see how anyone who watched that series could come away less then impressed with McGrady.

poohrichardson
06-20-2005, 12:07 AM
I know I'll get flamed for this.. but with a couple of minor adjustments to the roster, Ginobili with the current Rockets could have gone 7 just as well as McGrady's Rockets did.. get any halfway-decent defender to put on Dirk, and Gino's Rockets would be more balanced scoring-wise, and maybe able to topple the struggling Dirk and the Mavs.

Just one man's opinion, though.

LRB
06-20-2005, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by: poohrichardson
McGrady still hasn't accomplished a damn thing in his career.. sure, he torched us, but there's a good reason that the Rockets didn't win the series: they don't have a leader. They have T-Mac, who will shoot forced fadeaways until his arms fall off, but he's nothing but a guy that puts up good numbers.

And if it wasn't for Tim Duncan, Ginobli wouldn't have an NBA championship ring. Ginobli is nothing but a complimentary player. Heck, the Spurs actually played better with Ginobli out than with Ginobli in.


but with a couple of minor adjustments to the roster, Ginobili with the current Rockets could have gone 7 just as well as McGrady's Rockets did.. get any halfway-decent defender to put on Dirk, and Gino's Rockets would be more balanced scoring-wise, and maybe able to topple the struggling Dirk and the Mavs.

Replace Ginobli with probably any of 30 guys and the Spurs still make the finals. Ginobli's a good player, but he has long way to come before he can even sniff TMac's class. Put TMac on the Spurs this year and they win 65+ games and cruise to a championship.

Hitman
06-20-2005, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: poohrichardson
McGrady still hasn't accomplished a damn thing in his career.. sure, he torched us, but there's a good reason that the Rockets didn't win the series: they don't have a leader. They have T-Mac, who will shoot forced fadeaways until his arms fall off, but he's nothing but a guy that puts up good numbers.

And if it wasn't for Tim Duncan, Ginobli wouldn't have an NBA championship ring. Ginobli is nothing but a complimentary player. Heck, the Spurs actually played better with Ginobli out than with Ginobli in.



Actually, Manu's +/- is the best on the Spurs. They most certainly do not play better with him off the floor.

LRB
06-20-2005, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by: Hitman

Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: poohrichardson
McGrady still hasn't accomplished a damn thing in his career.. sure, he torched us, but there's a good reason that the Rockets didn't win the series: they don't have a leader. They have T-Mac, who will shoot forced fadeaways until his arms fall off, but he's nothing but a guy that puts up good numbers.

And if it wasn't for Tim Duncan, Ginobli wouldn't have an NBA championship ring. Ginobli is nothing but a complimentary player. Heck, the Spurs actually played better with Ginobli out than with Ginobli in.



Actually, Manu's +/- is the best on the Spurs. They most certainly do not play better with him off the floor.


Spurs are 6 wins to only 2 losses with Manu out for the whole game, which is what I was referring to. Interesting enough, the 2 losses were when Duncan was out injured as well. With Duncan playing, the Spurs have not lost a game all year when Manu sat out. Don't get me wrong, Manu is a talented player, but he's nowhere near superstardom. Manu might be a star, but McGrady is a superstar and Manu is nowhere close to being in his league.

Usually Lurkin
06-20-2005, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by: LRB
And if it wasn't for Tim Duncan, Ginobli wouldn't have an NBA championship ring. Ginobli is nothing but a complimentary player. Heck, the Spurs actually played better with Ginobli out than with Ginobli in.

Next to Duncan, everyone and anyone is or would be a complimentary player.
Pooh's a bit overboard if he's trying to say that Manu's in league with MVP-league players like TMac, Duncan, Dirk, etc.
But it's fair to ask if some of the hump teams like New York, Chicago, Milwaukee, Sacramento, Utah, Seattle, Washington, etc. might be able to get to another level if they had Manu as their main guy. He wouldn't win them any championships for sure, but would he get them into the playoffs, or get them another round in the playoffs?

LRB
06-20-2005, 02:01 PM
UL, I'm not saying the guy has no talent, but if Seattle switched Ray Allen for Manu, I still don't see the sonics getting past the Spurs.

FINtastic
06-20-2005, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by: poohrichardson
I know I'll get flamed for this.. but with a couple of minor adjustments to the roster, Ginobili with the current Rockets could have gone 7 just as well as McGrady's Rockets did.. get any halfway-decent defender to put on Dirk, and Gino's Rockets would be more balanced scoring-wise, and maybe able to topple the struggling Dirk and the Mavs.

Just one man's opinion, though.

Can you explain these minor adjustments? I have a hard time believing a Rockets team with Ginobili instead T-Mac could hang with the Mavs.

Manu is what he is. I seriously doubt that he will ever be a superstar on a top 10 NBA team. But he can be a good second option on a championship team if utilized properly (like he is now). Ginobili is lucky to be playing on a team with Tim Duncan. A lot players, especially shooting guards, are going to look good when you play with a guy like Duncan.

Nash13
06-21-2005, 10:36 AM
Yeah, and the talent gap between the two of those players is enormous. Between Finley and Manu, it's just as wide a gap.. except Finley is the Shawn Bradley to Manu Ginobili's Wilt Chamberlain. Live with it.


Answer these questions:

How many times has Manu averaged 20/6/5 in one season?
How many times has Manu averaged 20ppg?
How many times has Manu led the league in minutes?
How many times has Manu been in the top ten in the league in scoring?
How many times has Manu been his franchise's all time leader in anything?
How many times has Manu had a triple-double?
How many more times has Manu been to the all star game than Finley?
How many times has Manu been in the slam dunk contest?

But yet, Finley's Bradley and Manu's Wilt.

Usually Lurkin
06-21-2005, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by: LRB
UL, I'm not saying the guy has no talent, but if Seattle switched Ray Allen for Manu, I still don't see the sonics getting past the Spurs.

I agree with that, but what if you just inserted Manu and built the team around getting him shots, allowing him to make on-court decisions - would their chances increase or decrease?
(you realize, of course, that this is the most extreme 'hump' to choose: getting past the champs i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif )

LRB
06-21-2005, 01:57 PM
UL I'm far from being convinced that Manu is ready to lead a playoff team to the playoffs as their goto guy. He's had a few good games when Duncan was out, but that's a long way from doing if for a full season.

Personally I think that Manu is one of the most overrated players in the NBA. When people are regularly saying that he's better than perennial all-stars, better enven than some 1st team all NBA players, that's just way overrated. Manu is a nice and very talented player, and may very well be a top 25 talent, but a relatively low in the top 25. If he continues to progress he may get to the point where he could lead a playoff team as the main goto guy. If he was placed in that position, he might get there sooner. But that's simply speculation one way or another. Some players have done great as a 2nd or 3rd banana on a championship contending team and then when made the main player, they turnout to not be adequate to take the next step. Others have successfully made the transition.

I do wonder though if Manu is so great, then why is he averaging such relative low minutes per game? He's only #4 on the team in both the regular season and the playoffs. Seems to me if he was a top 10 or top 5 talent like some are claiming then he'd at least be 2nd to Duncan. Maybe Pop knows something that those who are drooling over Ginobli don't.

poohrichardson
06-21-2005, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by: Nash13

Yeah, and the talent gap between the two of those players is enormous. Between Finley and Manu, it's just as wide a gap.. except Finley is the Shawn Bradley to Manu Ginobili's Wilt Chamberlain. Live with it.


Answer these questions:

How many times has Manu averaged 20/6/5 in one season?
How many times has Manu averaged 20ppg?
How many times has Manu led the league in minutes?
How many times has Manu been in the top ten in the league in scoring?
How many times has Manu been his franchise's all time leader in anything?
How many times has Manu had a triple-double?
How many more times has Manu been to the all star game than Finley?
How many times has Manu been in the slam dunk contest?

But yet, Finley's Bradley and Manu's Wilt.


Then again, Finley's also been in the league for over 10 years, and Manu is still virtually a rookie, playing in his third season.

The best question to ask is.. if you had one season to get a ring, who do you take first? A shot-happy, defense-fearing Finley, or a legitimate playmaker in Manu Ginobili. Pretty obvious, if you ask me. Finley's tank is running in fumes, and Ginobili's coasting to a second ring.

grndmstr_c
06-21-2005, 09:51 PM
Third year players aren't virtually rookies, especially if they'll be turning 28 in just over a month.

Nash13
06-21-2005, 11:04 PM
The best question to ask is.. if you had one season to get a ring, who do you take first? A shot-happy, defense-fearing Finley, or a legitimate playmaker in Manu Ginobili. Pretty obvious, if you ask me. Finley's tank is running in fumes, and Ginobili's coasting to a second ring.

You don't even know what my argument's about. I've already admitted that now Manu's better, no one's debating that. But i then said anyone who doesn't believe Finley's had a better career is basketball ignorant. I give you stats to prove it, then you argue something else. You don't sound too bright right now comparing Fin NOW to Manu seeing as though nobody else is.

poohrichardson
06-22-2005, 12:38 AM
I don't really get how your argument is comparing careers to careers.. the context I was putting it in was Finley's prime vs. Manu's prime (or best year, as it's likely he hasn't hit his prime yet).. and Manu kills Finley in that regard.. in my opinion.

#1MavsFan
06-22-2005, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by: poohrichardson
I don't really get how your argument is comparing careers to careers.. the context I was putting it in was Finley's prime vs. Manu's prime (or best year, as it's likely he hasn't hit his prime yet).. and Manu kills Finley in that regard.. in my opinion.

Please, your comparing a role player who had a couple of nice games in a row (and many others where he was no where to be found) to someone who was a certified cornerstone of a franchise and was one of the brightest stars in the game at the time.

Finley scored 21.5 points, dished out over 4 assists, grabbed over 5 boards when he was 28.

Manu scored 16.0 points, dished out fewer than 4 assists, grabbed under 5 boards when he was 28.

Stats donít lie and another thing to point out is that the opposing teams didn't focus their defenses on Manu while in 00-01 the opposing defenses did focus mainly on Fin.

poohrichardson
06-22-2005, 04:09 AM
Finley was also the #1 scoring option on a team that struggled to make the playoffs. Manu, on the other hand, put up comparable numbers (save for scoring, but Manu isn't the top scoring option, as I've already stated before) with fewer years in the league and has been a key contributor on a team that's been a championship contender every year he's been in the league.

Usually Lurkin
06-22-2005, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by: LRB
UL I'm far from being convinced that Manu is ready to lead a playoff team to the playoffs as their goto guy. . . . Manu is a nice and very talented player, and may very well be a top 25 talent, . . .

These seem to be your endpoints for Manu ability to influence a team. Which is fair enough - I might move both a little higher, but the range would be very similar. As a top 20-25 guy, he could lead a lot of non-playoff teams to better records, better sales, and perhaps into the playoffs. That is squarely where'd I'd put Mike Finley, as well. Fin's primary quality has been stability, though. And that's pretty important for a team trying to transition from pretender to contender. Fin's still got a primary role on the mavs not because of his on-court production, but because of his even-keeled off-court leadership. (I know, the last refuge of a Fin apologist i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif ).
I don't know if Manu could bring that for the 4-5 years it would take. I've not seen him playing for Argentina, so it's hard for me to say what he'd be doing if he were the focus of an NBA team. On the spurs, he tends to get a little 'wild' at times. But the Spurs have perhaps the most boring successful NBA offense. Manu's practically a deviant. He leads the team in assists at times - I mean good grief.

Nash13
06-22-2005, 09:43 AM
Finley was also the #1 scoring option on a team that struggled to make the playoffs. Manu, on the other hand, put up comparable numbers (save for scoring, but Manu isn't the top scoring option, as I've already stated before) with fewer years in the league and has been a key contributor on a team that's been a championship contender every year he's been in the league.

Actually, there was somebody else on that team in 00-01 who also averaged 21ppg. And as for that championship contender part, everyone ain't lucky enough to be drafted onto a championship caliber team.




I don't really get how your argument is comparing careers to careers.. the context I was putting it in was Finley's prime vs. Manu's prime (or best year, as it's likely he hasn't hit his prime yet).. and Manu kills Finley in that regard.. in my opinion.

I give you a list of accomplishments, and all you can come up with is a championship Manu's won where in that title run of 2003, he was a bench player and fifth option behind Duncan, Robinson, Parker, and Jackson? He was good for something though, he dove right into Dirk's leg, knocked him out the playoffs, thereby securing their spot in the finals.

Thespiralgoeson
06-22-2005, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by: Nash13
I give you a list of accomplishments, and all you can come up with is a championship Manu's won where in that title run of 2003, he was a bench player and fifth option behind Duncan, Robinson, Parker, and Jackson? He was good for something though, he dove right into Dirk's leg, knocked him out the playoffs, thereby securing their spot in the finals.

Zing!

Hitman
06-23-2005, 11:27 PM
Another great game for Manu..the guy who, if he wins a few more gold medals, or a few more NBA championships, may someday be considered by the posters on this board to be as good as Michael Finley.

Of course, Manu was lucky to score 23 points in the clincher tonight, thank god he was playing with Tim Duncan who shot 11-28.

Bayliss
06-23-2005, 11:29 PM
Of course, Manu was lucky to score 23 points in the clincher tonight, thank god he was playing with Tim Duncan who shot 11-28.

Amazing how a guy that shoots so poorly creates so much space for others to get looks.

Thespiralgoeson
06-23-2005, 11:33 PM
If you could replace Manu with a young Michael Finley, that team would still win it all. Probably in less than 7, too.

Hitman
06-23-2005, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by: Bayliss

Of course, Manu was lucky to score 23 points in the clincher tonight, thank god he was playing with Tim Duncan who shot 11-28.

Amazing how a guy that shoots so poorly creates so much space for others to get looks.

Yes Bayliss. The Pistons double teamed Duncan for all of 2 minutes tonight. He did not create any more double teams than Dirk does for Finley or Howard.

Oh yes, I know that Finley is a grandfather now at 32, and is confined to a wheelchair at the same age that Jordan and Magic won MVPs, so it doesn't matter. Even though Manu is better NOW, Finley is REALLY OLD now, at 32, so he can't be compared with Manu, the MVP of the 2004 Olympics, and the runner up for the MVP in the 2005 NBA finals.

Hitman
06-23-2005, 11:44 PM
If you watched the game tonight, you would have seen that only one shot by Manu the whole night was created by Duncan. The rest were the result of screens off the ball or Manu doing his own thing.

Thespiralgoeson
06-23-2005, 11:46 PM
Let's wait til Manu's 32, then mess up his ankle and make him play on it for a full season. Then we'll compare him to Finley.

alby
06-24-2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by: Hitman
If you watched the game tonight, you would have seen that only one shot by Manu the whole night was created by Duncan. The rest were the result of screens off the ball or Manu doing his own thing.

finley rarely creates for his own shot..

actually finley never creates his own shots..

Scoobay
06-24-2005, 04:20 PM
sure he does... he's just not that good at it cause his handles aren't great. Mostly he's just dribble, dribble, pull up fadeaway. If he's on, well, not much you can do about stopping that because he's long and still can jump high and far away enough on his fadeaway, that it's hard to block. Problem is, it's a tough shot but hey, he's made a lot of those.

TVI
06-25-2005, 11:03 AM
Just curious...

In this whole thread, no one has brought up their respective defensive abilities. IMHO, Manu is a far superior defender than Fin ever was. Fin's best defense was his incredible offense (which admittedly was once very formidable).

My own two cents is that I think these guys are hard to compare, because their styles are very different. Fin was once a very dangerous offensive player who could take over games and make clutch shots. He didn't need anyone else to create his own shot, and was deadly from way, way, way downtown.

Manu has improved exponentially each year he's played. He was crucial to this year's championship run, and was just behind Duncan in the MVP voting.

The bottom line for me is, if I had to select one of these guys in their prime (for the Spurs), I'd go with Manu. That's not an insult to Finley, but Manu IMHO is a more complete player on both ends of the floor. Fin (in his prime) has a slight edge on offense, but Manu has an overwhelming edge on defense. Stat's only tell part of the story. Sure, Fin has higher ppg averages, but on the whole, the teams that he's been on don't win games where they only score 81 points. The Spurs are a different story. Every possession counts, and the shots attempts are much lower. To put up 23 points in a game 7 of the NBA finals where the whole team scores 81 total points has got to count for something pretty special. Combine that with the defensive effort and energy he expended guarding Prince and you have one very special player. Not just "a nice player."

Again, this is just one guy's opinion.

Nash13
06-25-2005, 11:58 AM
In this whole thread, no one has brought up their respective defensive abilities. IMHO, Manu is a far superior defender than Fin ever was. Fin's best defense was his incredible offense (which admittedly was once very formidable).

There's a reason nobody's brought it up, it's because of coaching. When Nellie was around, Dallas mostly relied on zone, and Finley couldn't do man-to-man. Also, when Nash was on Dallas, he anchored our terrible defense. Finley often had to guard the opposing team's point guard b/c Nash sucked on defense. His defense got a little better under Avery. I remember when HE was on TMac in the playoffs, he did considerably well. He also gave Amare fits sometimes. Finley may not be great on defense, but i wouldn't call Ginobli superior to him.




Manu has improved exponentially each year he's played. He was crucial to this year's championship run, and was just behind Duncan in the MVP voting.

Is he the second most talented player on the Spurs? Yes. Was he second to Duncan in MVP voting? That can be debated. If it weren't for Horry, there may not have been a game 7 b/c he single-handedly won the Spurs game 5. And at least the Pistons had someone to guard Manu. They had no one who felt comfortable guarding Horry on the perimeter. They could've guarded him better, but would've had to go small, which didn't work well for the Pistons on offense or when Duncan was on the court.




Sure, Fin has higher ppg averages, but on the whole, the teams that he's been on don't win games where they only score 81 points.


Up until this past season, he was always averaging around 20ppg when the Mavs were making the playoffs. In fact, his ppg suffered the least when Dallas had Jamison and Walker. Now, Ginobli's offensive stats are going to look better b/c Dallas has 3 other swingmen that average around 10+ppg, add Dirk, KVH, Jet, maybe Harris and/or Dampier.




Combine that with the defensive effort and energy he expended guarding Prince and you have one very special player. Not just "a nice player."

That's not very special considering Prince is Detroit's worse backcourt player on offense. The Pistons very, very rarely rely on Prince to score more than 10-15ppg. Also, i recall Prince grabbing a lot of offensive rebounds when Ginobli was guarding him. While i'm on this subject, why was Ginobli guarding Prince instead of Hamilton? B/c Hamilton did a really good job scoring when Bowen was guarding him.

Hitman
06-27-2005, 11:04 PM
Not that I care, but two summers ago, my exact words were

"I would rather have Manu than Finley right now."

and I got roasted on this board. People said I was delusional, they posted stats coming out of the wazoo that said I was crazy...but the fact was that I was right.

Manu was about to be better than that Finley than, and he is much better now.

But hey, I love the Mavs, so I am not going to post about Manu anymore...especially that Fin is out of here.

And believe it or not...I am quite sad about that.

The day he is cut, I will be less of a fan than I was the day before.

Go Figure.

Drbio
06-27-2005, 11:07 PM
*yawn*

Hitman
06-27-2005, 11:29 PM
Yes, I could say the same thing about the 26,000 more posts that you have more than I.

Most of them about senseless dribble.

Drbio
06-27-2005, 11:57 PM
*yawnnnnnnnnn*

I's all we get from you....blah blah finley sucks but really trust me i am a mavs fan blah blah broken record blah blah blah.....

*yawn*

MavsFanFinley
06-28-2005, 12:02 AM
*bump*

Hitman
06-28-2005, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by: Drbio
*yawnnnnnnnnn*

I's all we get from you....blah blah finley sucks but really trust me i am a mavs fan blah blah broken record blah blah blah.....

*yawn*

Yes, over 1,000 posts about how Finley sucks.
Check the archives, and then go back to what you do best...

calling people ass clowns and that sort of stuff.

Later dude.

Hitman
06-28-2005, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by: Drbio
*yawnnnnnnnnn*

I's all we get from you....blah blah finley sucks but really trust me i am a mavs fan blah blah broken record blah blah blah.....

*yawn*

Yes, over 1,000 posts about how Finley sucks.
Check the archives, and then go back to what you do best...

calling people ass clowns and that sort of stuff.

Later dude.

Drbio
06-29-2005, 08:49 AM
More insignificance from Hitman. It's become a forum joke.

cripple balls
07-01-2005, 02:37 PM
I hate the boring ass Spurs, but Finley is a total joke and always has been.

#1MavsFan
07-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by: cripple balls
I hate the boring ass Spurs, but Finley is a total joke and always has been.

Yeah the guy that carried this franchise on his back for a long time is a joke. Your basically saying the mavs are a joke as well since Fins #4 will be hanging from the rafters one day. Also BTW "the boring ass Spurs" won the title again... it must be pretty boring to be world champs and enjoy a nice parade.

The Miles
07-01-2005, 06:29 PM
Manu is a badass. His PPG isn't as high as Fins was when he was scoring but Manu is better at just about every other aspect of the game than Fin was when he was still good.

LRB
07-02-2005, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by: The Miles
Manu is a badass. His PPG isn't as high as Fins was when he was scoring but Manu is better at just about every other aspect of the game than Fin was when he was still good.

Finley season high RPG - 6.3
Manu season high RPG - 4.5
Finley better by 1.8 RPG

Finley season high APG - 5.3
Manu season high APG - 3.8
Finley better by 1.5 APG

Finley season high FG% - 47.6%
Manu season high FG% - 47.1 %
Finley better by 0.5%

Finley season high 3pt% - 40.7%
Manu season high 3pt % - 37.6%
Finley better by 2.9%

Finley season high BPG - 0.39
Manu season high BPG - 0.36
Finley better by - 0.03 BPG

Finley season high FT% - 85.0%
Manu season high FT% - 80.3%
Finley better by 4.7%

Finley Career TO - 1.64
Manu Career TO - 2.16
Finley better by .52 TO

Finley season low TO - 0.94
Manu season low TO - 1.45
Finley better by 0.51 TO

Finley season high GS 82 (done 3 times BTW and started all 50 in a 50 game season)
Manu season high GS 74
Finley better by 8

Finley season high total minutes - 3464
Manu season high total minutes - 2260
Finley better by 1204

Finley season high assist to turnover - 2.77
Manu season high assist to turnover - 1.81
Finley better by 0.96

Yeah looks like Manu just kicks Fin's ass in every category except scoring. i/expressions/anim_roller.gif

SeriousSummer
07-02-2005, 11:38 AM
What about championships? I seem to remember that Manu has a Euroleague title or two, an NBA title or two and a gold medal.

The Miles
07-03-2005, 10:19 AM
I don't need a bunch of stats to know Manu's value.

LRB
07-05-2005, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by: SeriousSummer
What about championships? I seem to remember that Manu has a Euroleague title or two, an NBA title or two and a gold medal.

I guess Steve Kerr is head and shoulders over Manu by that measurement.

LRB
07-05-2005, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by: The Miles
I don't need a bunch of stats to know Manu's value.

Translation: "I don't have any credible and objective facts to support my earlier statement that


Originally posted by: The Miles
Manu is a badass. His PPG isn't as high as Fins was when he was scoring but Manu is better at just about every other aspect of the game than Fin was when he was still good.

So I just move to a totally subjective argument that Manu is better because I say he is."

Well I can't argue with that one. If in your opinion you think Manu is better, fine. But Finley has posted better stats than Manu has in almost every category. Fin has had to carry a team all by himself as the only allstar level player and only all NBA anything player for several seasons. Manu has yet to do so for one NBA season. About the only thing Manu has done better than Fin is to have the luck to be on more talented teams and at the right time to get some championships. That's great, but doesn't mean a whole lot unless you want to start rating Robert Horry as the best active player in the NBA, and add Steve Kerr to the altime 50 NBA greatest players list.

The Miles
07-06-2005, 12:52 AM
Ok, cool.

I am seriously tired of talking about Michael Finley.