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aexchange
07-04-2005, 11:23 AM
Seems that rumors are floating around that the Rockets are offering Toine the entire MLE.

Thoughts?

Ming
Walker
McGrady
Wesley
Sura

DevinHarriswillstart
07-04-2005, 11:27 AM
God I hope so. Let him cancer up their team the way he does every other. Walker and Mcgrady would kill each other by mid-season.

DubOverdose
07-04-2005, 11:31 AM
I can only hope the Rockets will sign him. He's a solid PF for the money they can spend, but boy will he ruin the chemistry and take the ball away from Ming and TMac.

fin4life
07-04-2005, 12:17 PM
I am not so sure. I think that Walker might have finally learned his lesson after being with 3 teams in about a year. The guy has the ability to be a very good passer, and is also able to score consistantly in the paint. If Van Gundy can get through to him to tell him not to take outside shots.... he would be a great pickup. 5 Mil for Walker is a pretty good deal IMO.

Then again, he hasnt shown any disipline in his game for his entire career, so why would he start now?

dalmations202
07-04-2005, 03:08 PM
The only better thing than #8 being with Houston, is if he was with Phoenix. This would be one of the great moves for the Mavs, expecially if they have nothing to do with it.

Anything taking the ball out of TMac and Yao hands -- that is as inefficient as Walker --- is great news for the Mavs.

grndmstr_c
07-04-2005, 04:32 PM
If any western contender picks up Toine, regardless of what they pay him, I will consider that a good thing for the Mavs.

DevinHarriswillstart
07-04-2005, 04:56 PM
I dunno grndmstr.....we should fear the chicken dance.

chumdawg
07-04-2005, 07:06 PM
Hey, say what you want about the Employee, talent is talent, and AW definitely has it. If the Rox sign #8, they instantly jump ahead of us in the power picture.

DevinHarriswillstart
07-04-2005, 09:31 PM
How so? I'd take Juwan Howard over Fatoine any day of the week. At least Juwan is a team player. The second you take the ball out of Mcgrady's hands and put it in Walker's, Mcgrady isn't half the player. Just look what happened with us.

grndmstr_c
07-04-2005, 09:32 PM
Hey, say what you want about the Employee, talent is talent, and AW definitely has it. If the Rox sign #8, they instantly jump ahead of us in the power picture.How short our memories are.

Pirate
07-04-2005, 10:03 PM
"Hey, say what you want about the Employee, talent is talent, and AW definitely has it. If the Rox sign #8, they instantly jump ahead of us in the power picture."

What the Rox need from the PF is someone who can stick the 15' jumper, when Yao and T-Mac run the pick n roll. When Juwan did that, they were almost impossible to defend.

Now envision Walker getting one wide open 15 footer after another? Are you REALLY scared? Do you REALLY think that makes Houston a powerhouse? If so, you didnt pay attention in Dallas last year.

DubOverdose
07-04-2005, 10:30 PM
They'd be better served signing Alan Henderson. He rebounds and defends well and can hit open shots, but doesn't need any touches to put his stamp on the game. He's a great role player that would never take the ball out of TMac or Yaos hands.

aexchange
07-04-2005, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
Hey, say what you want about the Employee, talent is talent, and AW definitely has it. If the Rox sign #8, they instantly jump ahead of us in the power picture.

what is up with all the end of the world posts? where is the firm pulse on reality here? yes, toine is a nice player. but he's never been able to scale back his game for any team, and i doubt he starts doing it now. any player that the rockets add that is going to take touches away from yao and mcgrady is a good thing as far as i'm concerned.

chumdawg
07-05-2005, 12:30 AM
Do we not remember how easy the Rockets were to defend when you could make their role players try to beat you?

Do we also not remember how close the Rockets were really were to us in the standings (and in the series)?

I'm just saying, the Rockets desperately needed an infusion on talent. Walker definitely has it. In my mind, this vaults them ahead of us in the rankings, just because they were so very close to begin with and AW is so much better than the other spares they put out there with Yao and McGrady.

It's not the end of the world. It's okay if they are marginally better than us. It doesn't mean we don't have a chance against them. But if we fact them 4-5 again, AW helps them more than he hurts them.

Why the AW hate?

grndmstr_c
07-05-2005, 01:09 AM
Why the AW hate?Cause we all watched him f'up the team 2 years ago. Dumping him on Atlanta was the single biggest reason the Mavs were able to overcome the loss of the eventual MVP to improve their regular season record last year. He's got talent, no question. He should be one of the best role-player types in the league, but the unavoidable reality is that he consistently does such a horrible job of recognizing and playing within his own abilities that even bad teams are better off without him.

rabbitproof
07-05-2005, 01:20 AM
The Rockets defintely need a PF and are the most two-man reliant team in the league (take away the top two players from every ballclub and Houston is in the gutter) so while AW is nobody's favorite player, it might be a fit. Toine is only going to have a limited number of touches in a JVG system and best believe he won't get more touches then Yao or Tracy. If he can become a third banana (and only a third banana) for them, it's a solid move. Depending on what other moves they make, it could help them play TMac in the backcourt, which is where he ought to be.

AW or not, they could use a truly nasty rebounder/defender in a Reggie Evans/Kelvin Cato mold though.

dirno2000
07-05-2005, 01:40 AM
If the Mavericks don't win a championship, the terrorists win.

Terrorists 1
Humanity 0
-May 21st, 2005 Scoreboardoff topic, but his is by far the funniest sig on the board...I laugh every time I read it...

Hers's an interesting comment from noted Boston homer Bill Simmons...it was in his 2003-2004 NBA preview:
Antoine's best quality doubled as his worst quality: His unwavering belief that he's the best player on the floor in every game. That's fine when you're playing in Boston, but watch what happens in Dallas -- in close games, much like Van Exel did last spring, he'll keep launching shots that should have gone to better scorers.

In retrospect, that sums up the Walker era in Dallas. Houston doesn't need versatility; they need a Kurt Thomas type...a good rebounder who can knock down the open 15-18 footer. Toine wouldn't be a good fit.

I honestly don't know where he would be a good fit because the Celts have a promising young player at his position. For my money, his plight is the most fascinating sub-plot in FA...I'd pay the see the look on his face when he finds out that he has to play for the MLE.

chumdawg
07-05-2005, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Why the AW hate?Cause we all watched him f'up the team 2 years ago. Dumping him on Atlanta was the single biggest reason the Mavs were able to overcome the loss of the eventual MVP to improve their regular season record last year. He's got talent, no question. He should be one of the best role-player types in the league, but the unavoidable reality is that he consistently does such a horrible job of recognizing and playing within his own abilities that even bad teams are better off without him.You sure it wasn't dumping Antawn Jamison?

Let's not blame AW for that horrendously poor combination of parts that was the '04 Dallas Mavericks.

Maybe it will do Antoine good to...I don't know...play with a center?

kg_veteran
07-05-2005, 09:44 AM
I can't wait to see Walker suit up in his Rockets uniform. Adding him to the Rockets doesn't tip the scales in their favor any more than adding him to the Mavericks tipped the scales in Dallas' favor.

chumdawg
07-05-2005, 10:46 AM
There is a big difference in AW being added to the Houston roster and in his being added to ours. Here he was redundant, for the most part. There he fills a need.

Unless...you think they were doing just fine with Ryan Bowen?

fin4life
07-05-2005, 10:51 AM
Although #8 may not work out, Houston knows that they need a third scorer. Mike James, Bobby Sura, or Jon Barry ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Those kind of guys are options number 5-7 on good teams. If Yao or t-mac are not scoring 25+ each.... they cant win. A guy like Henderson to start at PF will not get it done for them. They need to get 15-18 ppg from their PF night in and night out. Walker is capable of that, but he tends to take it too far.

kg_veteran
07-05-2005, 10:55 AM
No, I think they would be better off with Juwan Howard than with Walker. Juwan Howard, from what I understand, will be back at PF for the Rockets next year. I don't think Walker is an upgrade over Howard for the Rockets.

grndmstr_c
07-05-2005, 11:40 AM
You sure it wasn't dumping Antawn Jamison?Well, let's see. Antawn had a net +/- of +2.9 with the Mavs, Antoine had a net +/- of -7.6. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it wasn't dumping Jamison.

Let's not blame AW for that horrendously poor combination of parts that was the '04 Dallas Mavericks.No, let's blame him. It was Antoine's unwillingness to play within himself, combined with Nellie's crappy handling of the situation, that were primarily responsible for that team underachieving the way it did.

There is a big difference in AW being added to the Houston roster and in his being added to ours. Here he was redundant, for the most part. There he fills a need.Houston may have needs at PF, but you're kidding yourself if you think Walker is even close to being a good fit for them. You watched that Houston series. Did you really find yourself sitting there thinking, "man, it's a good thing that team doesn't have a PF who can come in and jack up threes at a 32% clip, shoot midrange jumpers even less efficiently than that, play the roll of resident turnover machine, blow a bunch of layups, and pout on the bench when he gets yanked for sucking. Mavs would really be in trouble then"?

DevinHarriswillstart
07-05-2005, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
There is a big difference in AW being added to the Houston roster and in his being added to ours. Here he was redundant, for the most part. There he fills a need.

Unless...you think they were doing just fine with Ryan Bowen?

Their starting PF is Juwan Howard. He was just injured during the playoffs.

chumdawg
07-05-2005, 12:07 PM
GMC-- Why in the world would Houston be interested in him, do you think?

grndmstr_c
07-05-2005, 12:13 PM
Mabye because they haven't had him before? I honestly don't know why any contending team would be interested in him.

birdsanctuary
07-05-2005, 12:28 PM
Great Pick up for the RoX - A VOLUME SHOOTER

chumdawg
07-05-2005, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
Mabye because they haven't had him before? I honestly don't know why any contending team would be interested in him.It's hard to imagine they'd be less informed about Walker than any of us would be.

grndmstr_c
07-05-2005, 01:14 PM
It's hard to imagine they'd be less informed about Walker than any of us would be.
Is it hard to imagine that Nellie was less informed about Walker two years ago than we currently are?

Team's make questionable personnel decisions all the time. I'll be happy to change my opinions if the results on the court dictate I should (in fact, that's precisely why I have such a low opinion of Toine now; I wasn't always so dismissive of his value), but hedging on something I'm pretty damn confident about just because somebody makes the counter bet? That's a different story.

chumdawg
07-05-2005, 01:50 PM
Was Walker a +7.1 in his last year with the Celtics, before coming to Dallas?

grndmstr_c
07-05-2005, 02:26 PM
And then he came to Dallas, to a far superior team where he was handed a starting job and heavy minutes with an opportunity to play with one of his good friends and a pair of guys who would go on to finish first and third in MVP voting the next year, and sucked the life out of the Mavs' season. He then followed that up with a performance so impressive this year that the former all-star who should have been in the prime of his career the last couple years is now going to have to accept the MLE.

What have you done for me lately, Toine?

chumdawg
07-05-2005, 03:48 PM
I think we can all agree that Dallas was not the best place for Walker to be. Not enough balls to go around here. Not enough power forward positions either. It might be hard on any player to be moved around everywhere from point forward to center in the course of one season.

'Toine just needs to find his niche, that's all. But I think it's safe to say that the situations in Dallas and Houston are so markedly different that if the Employee does indeed wind up there, any analysis of his time here is close to worthless as a predictor of his success or failure there.

kg_veteran
07-05-2005, 04:14 PM
The situations are very different, and I agree that Antoine needs to find his niche, but I'm not sure that he's going to find his niche with a championship contender. Antoine is an inefficient offensive player and a subpar defender who ends up handling the ball a bunch and taking a lot of shots, wherever he goes. That's not a recipe for success.

madape
07-05-2005, 05:21 PM
I'd rather have Walk in Houston than in Sacramento. He just seems like too perfect a fit for Adelman's offense.

But still, he will help the Rockets. Just think of the series with the Mavericks and replace Scott Pagett and Ryan Bowen's production with a guy who can put up 20/10/6 on any given night.

grndmstr_c
07-05-2005, 05:54 PM
I'd happily saddle Houston with a guy who will put up 20 points on 24 shots, pull down 10 rebounds by grabbing a couple away from Yao, and dish 6 assists to his team and 4 to ours. Sounds fantastic.

dirno2000
07-05-2005, 06:41 PM
Could Walker actually get more then the MLE...from Chad Ford:

Rockets: They also have been wooing Walker, hoping that Boston would be willing to take a player or two in the last year of their deals to facilitate a sign-and-trade. The Rockets have a number of tradable assets in the last year of their contracts, including David Wesley, Clarence Weatherspoon, Moochie Norris and Vin Baker. Stromile Swift and Bobby Simmons also have been targets.

Maybe Carrol Dawson doesn't get league pass...

DevinHarriswillstart
07-05-2005, 08:27 PM
HAhahaha sign and trade. I hope they give him a big fact contract.

aexchange
07-05-2005, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by: madape
I'd rather have Walk in Houston than in Sacramento. He just seems like too perfect a fit for Adelman's offense.

But still, he will help the Rockets. Just think of the series with the Mavericks and replace Scott Pagett and Ryan Bowen's production with a guy who can put up 20/10/6 on any given night.

yeah i think of the series that takes mcgrady off nowitzki and puts walker on him instead. nowitzki lits the dimwit up for 35 pts a game and the mavs win in 6 games instead of 7. i'd be far more scared of them adding someone like webber than walker. webber has the requisite skills to take houston over the top, walker is a big pile of crap.

grndmstr_c
07-05-2005, 11:07 PM
I'm of the opinion that Webber is about as worthless as Walker at this point. Walker without a brain (congenital) = Webber without a leg.

I'll be legitimately concerned if they land SAR or Reggie Evans. Evans, moreso, since he'd give them something they don't otherwise have at the PF position, and I view him as a player on the way up.

kg_veteran
07-05-2005, 11:14 PM
Evans would be a tremendous fit in Houston. He'd be just the kind of guy Yao needs beside him in the paint.

Scary thought, GMC, scary thought.

LRB
07-05-2005, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by: DubOverdose
I can only hope the Rockets will sign him. He's a solid PF for the money they can spend, but boy will he ruin the chemistry and take the ball away from Ming and TMac.

With the mere prescence of Walker in the lineup for 25+ minutes can derail even the best teams championship hopes. Walker is to basketball what cancer is to the field of medicine. Although he has more than a modest amount of talent, he incredibly low basketball IQ turns that talent into a liability for any team with enough talent to realistically contend for a championship. Walker is one of the most inefficient players in the NBA who takes more than 10 shots per game. He's good at putting up numbers, only problem he puts them up for both teams. Even aside from his gross ineptitude at playing the game of basketall, Walker is a killer for team chemistry because of his selfishness. He will take shots from even the most efficient of scorers because of he is in absolute denial of the fact that he sucks as a big time scorer.

If we could get Houston or any of our western conference rivals to big up Walker, especially with them wasting their entire MLE doing so, it would be a fantastic victory for the Mavs.

Thespiralgoeson
07-06-2005, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by: madape
I'd rather have Walk in Houston than in Sacramento. He just seems like too perfect a fit for Adelman's offense.

You know Madape, I was just thinking that. Sacramento just seems like the perfect place for 'Toine in every way. He's certainly nowhere near as good as C-Webb once was, but he's very similar in that he's a versitile scorer, despite being inefficient, and moreover he's an excellent passer. If Sacramento picked up Toine they'd be their old selves again. Sure, they'd still be god-awful defensively, but they'd essentially be the same team they were in previous years. Like the Webber/Vlade tandem, a Walker/Miller frontcourt would average more assists than most backcourts. No, they wouldn't win a championship, but they'd still win a shitload of games and would move the ball better than any team in the league. The only question is if Antoine would get in the way of Peja being "the man" the same way Webber did. As for Houston, I actually think Webber seems like a much better fit for them than does Toine. And as he will probably be waived, it looks like he might be available for a low price. True, they'd be better served with someone like Kurt Thomas, or someone else who can play D, but Webber seems like a very intriguing possibility for them. Abdur Rahim might be a better fit... Although if they had C-Webb, and added Jalen Rose they could get a Fab Five reunion going there.... or not...

Thespiralgoeson
07-06-2005, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Evans would be a tremendous fit in Houston. He'd be just the kind of guy Yao needs beside him in the paint.

Scary thought, GMC, scary thought.

That's a scary thought indeed. Houston makes me more nervous everytime I think about them. Really, they're only one or two minor moves away from being a very dangerous team. I can only hope our Maverick team becomes as good as it looks on paper, because Houston is potentially as threatening to us as San Antonio is IMO.

chumdawg
07-06-2005, 02:13 AM
I hope Walker signs in Houston just so I have at least one Texas team to root for.

madape
07-06-2005, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: DubOverdose
I can only hope the Rockets will sign him. He's a solid PF for the money they can spend, but boy will he ruin the chemistry and take the ball away from Ming and TMac.

With the mere prescence of Walker in the lineup for 25+ minutes can derail even the best teams championship hopes. Walker is to basketball what cancer is to the field of medicine. Although he has more than a modest amount of talent, he incredibly low basketball IQ turns that talent into a liability for any team with enough talent to realistically contend for a championship. Walker is one of the most inefficient players in the NBA who takes more than 10 shots per game. He's good at putting up numbers, only problem he puts them up for both teams. Even aside from his gross ineptitude at playing the game of basketall, Walker is a killer for team chemistry because of his selfishness. He will take shots from even the most efficient of scorers because of he is in absolute denial of the fact that he sucks as a big time scorer.

If we could get Houston or any of our western conference rivals to big up Walker, especially with them wasting their entire MLE doing so, it would be a fantastic victory for the Mavs.

I think Celtic fans would disagree with you there LRB. The man came into Boston this year and really, really, helped them. When he left Boston the first time, the team went into the toilet. I think Mavs fans need to get over themselves with 'Toine. He was a terrible fit here, but the guy can help out the right team, as he's proven in the past.

I don't know if Houston is the right fit or not. In my opinion, they need a good point guard more than anything. But they do need another forward. 'Toine might be the guy. God help us if they pick up Webber.

aexchange
07-06-2005, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Evans would be a tremendous fit in Houston. He'd be just the kind of guy Yao needs beside him in the paint.

Scary thought, GMC, scary thought.

they had a better, bigger bruiser in the same mold in kelvin cato, and yao still had mediocre rebounding numbers and still couldn't stay out of foul trouble. i honestly believe they need a four who can hit a mid range jumper and move the ball effectively enough to keep defenses honest.

webber is a great fit for them. nice player who is a willing passer, talented distributor, and good scorer. evans is just a lug. rebounds well, hustles well, but is just a bruising version of ryan bowen who doesnt contribute much else besides grabbing some boards and hustle. when i think of evans, i think of brian cardinal, even eschmeyer, and eddie najera. other "energy" spares that play power forward.

if you put webber in houston, you can sign over the trophy to the rockets.

kg_veteran
07-06-2005, 10:38 AM
aex - Webber would be a tremendous fit in Houston (better than Evans), but there's no way for them to get him there. Houston's best offer would be something like Weatherspoon, Howard, and Sura. Why would Philly take that? Philly is in a situation where they're better off re-signing Dalembert and trying to acquire a veteran SG and then making a run with Iverson/vet SG/Iggy/Webber/Dalembert, and see where that gets them.

LRB
07-06-2005, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by: madape

Originally posted by: LRB

Originally posted by: DubOverdose
I can only hope the Rockets will sign him. He's a solid PF for the money they can spend, but boy will he ruin the chemistry and take the ball away from Ming and TMac.

With the mere prescence of Walker in the lineup for 25+ minutes can derail even the best teams championship hopes. Walker is to basketball what cancer is to the field of medicine. Although he has more than a modest amount of talent, he incredibly low basketball IQ turns that talent into a liability for any team with enough talent to realistically contend for a championship. Walker is one of the most inefficient players in the NBA who takes more than 10 shots per game. He's good at putting up numbers, only problem he puts them up for both teams. Even aside from his gross ineptitude at playing the game of basketall, Walker is a killer for team chemistry because of his selfishness. He will take shots from even the most efficient of scorers because of he is in absolute denial of the fact that he sucks as a big time scorer.

If we could get Houston or any of our western conference rivals to big up Walker, especially with them wasting their entire MLE doing so, it would be a fantastic victory for the Mavs.

I think Celtic fans would disagree with you there LRB. The man came into Boston this year and really, really, helped them. When he left Boston the first time, the team went into the toilet. I think Mavs fans need to get over themselves with 'Toine. He was a terrible fit here, but the guy can help out the right team, as he's proven in the past.

I don't know if Houston is the right fit or not. In my opinion, they need a good point guard more than anything. But they do need another forward. 'Toine might be the guy. God help us if they pick up Webber.


Madape, I won't agrue that Walker didn't help Boston, because I feel that he did. I just don't feel that Boston has near the talent to be a legit contender. Walker can help less talented teams, despite his offensive inefficiency. It's talented teams where he takes the ball and shots away from far more talented players that hurts teams. Playing against the overall inferior talent of the east, and on a team will less talent than necessary to be a legit contender for the title, Walker can help. In Houston that will not be the scenario, and IMO Walker would be a huge step backwards for them. Walker is an above average journeyman player who thinks and acts like he's a superstar. Not what you want for you push for a championship. Let him stay in Bean Town and help them make the Leastern Conference finals.

madape
07-06-2005, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
aex - Webber would be a tremendous fit in Houston (better than Evans), but there's no way for them to get him there. Houston's best offer would be something like Weatherspoon, Howard, and Sura. Why would Philly take that? Philly is in a situation where they're better off re-signing Dalembert and trying to acquire a veteran SG and then making a run with Iverson/vet SG/Iggy/Webber/Dalembert, and see where that gets them.

If Philly buys Webber out, everything changes. As a free agent,I doubt Webber will get offers for much more than the MLE. If Houston feels like waiting, they could have a shot. I think (and hope) that Houston's a little risk averse. They'll go hard after Walker to begin the free agent season. If they lose out on him, I anticipate they'll go after Webber should he be released later on in the fall.

kg_veteran
07-06-2005, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by: madape

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
aex - Webber would be a tremendous fit in Houston (better than Evans), but there's no way for them to get him there. Houston's best offer would be something like Weatherspoon, Howard, and Sura. Why would Philly take that? Philly is in a situation where they're better off re-signing Dalembert and trying to acquire a veteran SG and then making a run with Iverson/vet SG/Iggy/Webber/Dalembert, and see where that gets them.

If Philly buys Webber out, everything changes. As a free agent,I doubt Webber will get offers for much more than the MLE. If Houston feels like waiting, they could have a shot. I think (and hope) that Houston's a little risk averse. They'll go hard after Walker to begin the free agent season. If they lose out on him, I anticipate they'll go after Webber should he be released later on in the fall.

Did you mean buy him out, or waive him? I guess they might waive him, but how does that help them get better? A Webber/Dalembert/Iguodala frontcourt combined with Iverson is their best shot at hoping to succeed until Iverson's contract runs out.

madape
07-06-2005, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Did you mean buy him out, or waive him? I guess they might waive him, but how does that help them get better? A Webber/Dalembert/Iguodala frontcourt combined with Iverson is their best shot at hoping to succeed until Iverson's contract runs out.

I meant whatever this new amnesty rule dictates. Is it proper to call it "waiving" the player?

In any case, it makes as much basketball sense as the Mavericks waiving Finley. In other words, none. But we know owners are sometimes not as interested in what's best for the team as they are in the balance sheets. The truth is that waiving Webber would save Philly's owners tens of millions of dollars. Do you think the executives of Comcast, the firm that owns the 76ers wouldn't consider waiving him? Hell yes they would. Especially when he's not a very popular member of the team, and doesn't appear to want to be there.

I'm sure they'll pay lip service to trying to trade Webber, just as Donn Nelson came on the radio last weekend and claimed they were exploring "creative ways" to move Finley. But no one is going to be trading anything of value for that contract. My prediction is that Philly will string him along all summer until there's no more free agent money left and then dump him.

chumdawg
07-06-2005, 05:27 PM
For what it's worth, I read conflicting reports about the window of opportunity to "amnestize" a player. Some reports had it at one month from the signing of the new agreement. That would seem to make sense, if those players' interests were taken to heart.

LRB
07-06-2005, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
For what it's worth, I read conflicting reports about the window of opportunity to "amnestize" a player. Some reports had it at one month from the signing of the new agreement. That would seem to make sense, if those players' interests were taken to heart.

I don't think that it would be much of a hardship on a player to have to wait until the season starts to find out that he'll be waived or not.

1. he'll get his full salary either way.
2. While he might not get big FA bucks, he could still sign with any team that wants him other than the one who cut him for the vet minimum and thus choose his location while making an extra 1.5 million.

Sounds to me the player has it pretty cushy if the deadline is when the season starts. Of course he could have it extra supersize cushy if the deadline was 1 month after the CBA is signed.

chumdawg
07-07-2005, 01:42 PM
Word on street:

Informal discussions have taken place between the Celtics and Bulls regarding a sign-and-trade deal involving Mt. Carmel alum Antoine Walker and the Bulls' Antonio Davis.

According to the Tribune

LRB
07-07-2005, 01:53 PM
I'm definitely no Walker fan, but why in the world would the Celts do a sign and trade of Walker just to get stuck with Antonio Davis' alabatross of a contract??? There must be something else involved or the Celts would be better signing and keeping Walker or just letting him walk.

aexchange
07-07-2005, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by: chumdawg

Word on street:

Informal discussions have taken place between the Celtics and Bulls regarding a sign-and-trade deal involving Mt. Carmel alum Antoine Walker and the Bulls' Antonio Davis.

According to the Tribune


don't see how walker would fit in chicago with chandler there already. walker just takes the ball out of more efficient options like hinrich, curry, and gordon.

rakesh.s
07-07-2005, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by: LRB
I'm definitely no Walker fan, but why in the world would the Celts do a sign and trade of Walker just to get stuck with Antonio Davis' alabatross of a contract??? There must be something else involved or the Celts would be better signing and keeping Walker or just letting him walk.

Package another bum contract like Mark Blount's in the deal -- that's why. They are clearly disgusted with Blount and I'm sure they'd like to get rid of LaFoul too.

Antonio Davis' deal expires after this season, so they'll have more $$$ to spend in free agency next year.

TheBlameGame
07-07-2005, 11:02 PM
We improved our record by a whopping 6 games (and our home record was worse) and Dirk wasn't injured nearly as much last season as he was the year before. He also stepped up his game last season whereas in 2003 he was practically afraid to take it to the basket 95% of the time.

Antoine might not have been a good fit in Dallas (3 players who all need the ball in their hands to be productive had more to do with that then having Walker on this team) but to underestimate him like this is ludicrous.

Chemistry problems, now that is Stephan Marbury. Walker made Boston better and was the only guy to consistently show up for Atlanta every game. For the first half of 2003 (when Walker was allowed to showcase his game due to injuries) Antoine was the one true All Star this team had.

It took Chanuncey Billups 4 different teams to finally show his true potential. You better pray that Houston isn't that team for Walker. If he signs there he will now have a real coach for the first time in his NBA career.


A lot of you are just mad that Walker outplayed Dirk for the first half of 2003 and you refuse to give him credit for anything.
We didn't accomplish anything last season without Walker . I don't see any championship banners hanging above. If getting to the second round of the playoffs was your goal then that doesn't say much.

Dirk the M.V.P folded in the playoffs. Why you are bragging about that while knocking down others?
That makes no sense.

Phight Club
07-10-2005, 05:47 AM
Do you guys know why the Walker/Jamison/Dirk experiment failed? Because Dirk is the best defensive player of that group. Let that soak in. Think about that. Pretty sad huh, as Dirk is an average defender at best.

DubOverdose
07-10-2005, 06:12 PM
Walker might be on his way to SACRAMENTO now via a S&T.

Sacramento Bee - The Kings apparently have decided to try to upgrade their power-forward position and have discussed a sign-and-trade deal with free-agent forward Antoine Walker's agent.
Walker, who will turn 29 on Aug. 12, played for the Atlanta Hawks and Boston Celtics last season.

Agent Mark Bartelstein called the 6-foot-10 Walker one of the league's top 20 players.

"I spoke with (Kings president of basketball operations) Geoff (Petrie) and explored some sign-and-trade possibilities," said the Chicago-based Bartelstein, who played a role in the sign-and-trade, three-team deal that brought Brad Miller to the Kings in July 2003. "I'll throw out a couple of ideas and try to get the teams talking. I did that in the Miller deal."

TheBlameGame
07-14-2005, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by: Phight Club
Do you guys know why the Walker/Jamison/Dirk experiment failed? Because Dirk is the best defensive player of that group. Let that soak in. Think about that. Pretty sad huh, as Dirk is an average defender at best.



No he isn't, not even close.
I have never seen Dirk shut down Shaq (for a very short time) or Jermaine O'Neil in a playoff game.
You're just wrong.

It failed because Dirk was unwilling to share the rock.

EricaLubarsky
07-14-2005, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by: TheBlameGame

Originally posted by: Phight Club
Do you guys know why the Walker/Jamison/Dirk experiment failed? Because Dirk is the best defensive player of that group. Let that soak in. Think about that. Pretty sad huh, as Dirk is an average defender at best.



No he isn't, not even close.
I have never seen Dirk shut down Shaq (for a very short time) or Jermaine O'Neil in a playoff game.
You're just wrong.

It failed because Dirk was unwilling to share the rock.

lol

Big Boy Laroux
07-14-2005, 06:03 PM
oh man, that is TOO priceless.

chumdawg
07-15-2005, 01:18 AM
It didn't "fail," because it wasn't an experiment at all. It was a sacrificed season--on the heels of being five quarters from a title, but I won't belabor that point--so that we could turn NVE, Raef, Najera, two #1's, Nash, Nellie, and Finley into Stackhouse, Harris, Terry, Dampier, AJ, $$$, and probably at least two more sacrificed seasons and FLEXIBILITY.

Duh.

Thespiralgoeson
07-15-2005, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by: TheBlameGame

Originally posted by: Phight Club
Do you guys know why the Walker/Jamison/Dirk experiment failed? Because Dirk is the best defensive player of that group. Let that soak in. Think about that. Pretty sad huh, as Dirk is an average defender at best.



No he isn't, not even close.
I have never seen Dirk shut down Shaq (for a very short time) or Jermaine O'Neil in a playoff game.
You're just wrong.

It failed because Dirk was unwilling to share the rock.

Wow... Just... Wow... You haven't seen Dirk shut down Shaq or Jermaine in a playoff game? You know, neither have I. Of course that might be because Dirk has never played against either of them in the playoffs... Dirk was unwilling to share the rock? I suppose that's why his scoring average dropped about 5 points that year?

dirno2000
07-15-2005, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by: chumdawg
It didn't "fail," because it wasn't an experiment at all. It was a sacrificed season--on the heels of being five quarters from a title, but I won't belabor that point--so that we could turn NVE, Raef, Najera, two #1's, Nash, Nellie, and Finley into Stackhouse, Harris, Terry, Dampier, AJ, $$$, and probably at least two more sacrificed seasons and FLEXIBILITY.

Duh.Not to nitpick but wasn't one of those #1's acquired in the Walker deal?

Question: At the time, did you think the 2002-2003 team would have won it all if they were allowed to stay together? Do you feel differently in retrospect knowing that Raef and Nick were virtually useless the next season?

chumdawg
07-15-2005, 10:39 AM
Not to nitpick but wasn't one of those #1's acquired in the Walker deal?I'm sure you're correct about this.


Question: At the time, did you think the 2002-2003 team would have won it all if they were allowed to stay together? I thought they had an excellent chance to.


Do you feel differently in retrospect knowing that Raef and Nick were virtually useless the next season?You know, I really don't.

TheBlameGame
07-16-2005, 09:51 PM
Every fan over values their own player and everyone at this board thinks Dirk is this God, he isn't. Plenty of players have carried their teams to titles and Dirk is not capable of that.
All he seems to do is criticize and blame everyone but himself. He did it in 2003-2004 and he did it last season. ANyoen who claims he passes the ball like he should is being unrealistic.

NVE had one good playoff series in 2003 and he is the reason we moved on. He is also a big reason we didn't move on in the WCF.

Thespiralgoeson
07-17-2005, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by: TheBlameGame
Every fan over values their own player and everyone at this board thinks Dirk is this God, he isn't.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Dirk is God. He is however our franchise player, and a first team all-NBA selection.


Plenty of players have carried their teams to titles and Dirk is not capable of that

So, because Dirk hasn't led his team to a title by this point in his career, that means he's simply not capable of that? Son, the guy just turned 27 last month. He's just hitting his prime. He's easily one of the three best players at his position. The only other two who are even arguably better are Duncan and Garnett (whom incidentally also has no titles)


All he seems to do is criticize and blame everyone but himself. He did it in 2003-2004 and he did it last season.

His entire career, people have been bitching for him to be more vocal and be more of a leader. So now that he called out his teammates when they were playing like shit, you're bitching at him. BTW, he had every reason to be pissed off in 03-04 because the over-crowded, clustered mess of a roster was hindering his ability.


ANyoen who claims he passes the ball like he should is being unrealistic.

You probably haven't noticed, but the standard for passing isn't that high when it comes to seven footers. Dirk is one of the better passing PF's in the league. Sure, he's nothing like Webber or Garnett in that area, but he's certainly better than average. He needs to work on passing out of a double-team, but his pass of the dribble is very pretty indeed. However, it sounds like you're not even critisizing his passing technique. Are you actually suggesting that Dirk is too selfish? If this is the case, then you're simply not too bright.

Thespiralgoeson
07-17-2005, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by: TheBlameGameAll he seems to do is criticize and blame everyone but himself.

Huh? Excuse me, but isn't Dirk the one who's constantly been talking about how he was disappointed with his playoff performance and how he's going to work his ass off to improve his game this summer? Are we talking about the same person?

TheBlameGame
07-18-2005, 05:53 PM
You prove my point.

A- Dirk can do no wrong

B- Dirk only cares about himself. "Hindering his what????"

Dirk is all talk. His yelling at his teammates is not being a leader and I guess he didn't see teh way he played in those two playoff series. (I must have missed the comments where he as the team leader took the blame for anything that went wrong.)

Better passer in this league?? LOL

I rest my case.!

Thespiralgoeson
07-18-2005, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by: TheBlameGame
You prove my point.

A- Dirk can do no wrong

B- Dirk only cares about himself. "Hindering his what????"

Dirk is all talk. His yelling at his teammates is not being a leader and I guess he didn't see teh way he played in those two playoff series. (I must have missed the comments where he as the team leader took the blame for anything that went wrong.)

Did you even read what I said? Apparently you did miss the comments where he said he was disappointed with his own performance, and needs to work on his game. Apparently you did miss his comments about how he's not a complete player yet. Apparently you did miss the comments about how he wants to be more like Tim Duncan.


Better passer in this league?? LOL

I rest my case.!

Uh, how many Power Forwards can you name that are better passers than Dirk? The only names that immediately come to my mind are Webber, Garnett, and Walker. There might be one or two others, but it's a very short list indeed. He already averages more assists than Duncan. So, yes, he is one of the better passing PF's in the league. Until you can prove otherwise, I rest my case!

alby
07-19-2005, 02:31 AM
Duncan is a better passer IMO only because he has a far superior post game though which creates easy opportunities to get an assist. I think Rasheed is a pretty good passing powerforward, but yeah Dirk amazingly is one of the better passing pf's in this league (which is pretty sad if you think about it), the quality of team play is nonexistent nowadays..

TheBlameGame
07-21-2005, 04:56 PM
Dirk said he should have played better. He however did not stand up and say, I am at fault for the loss and my bahavior.
There is a huge difference in what he said and what he should have said.

Now your just talking crazy talk that he is a top PF passer in the league. Put him on the Hawks and his assists are negative 4. He benefits from playing with a team that shoots well.

Thespiralgoeson
07-21-2005, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by: TheBlameGame

Dirk said he should have played better. He however did not stand up and say, I am at fault for the loss and my bahavior.
There is a huge difference in what he said and what he should have said.

For the love of god, what f*cking difference would it have made? It's a stupid, pointless, rhetorical, theoretical debate that has absolutely no relavance to the real issue here.


Now your just talking crazy talk that he is a top PF passer in the league. Put him on the Hawks and his assists are negative 4. He benefits from playing with a team that shoots well.

"He benefits from playing with a team that shoots well" Uh, excuse me, doesn't that go for EVERY PLAYER IN THE NBA?! For Christ's sake, will you please show me a list of Power Forwards who are better passers than Dirk? Because without that, you're argument is not only vague, it's unfounded. Again there's Walker, Webber, Garnett... I personally think Dirk's a better passer than Duncan, or at least as good, but I'll let you say Duncan for argument's sake. Either way, it's a very short list. But regardless, I still don't get WHAT YOUR F*CKING POINT IS?! Do you wish Dirk would be traded, is that it? Sure, let's trade Dirk for Antoine Walker... I'm sure we'll win a lot more games and cruise to a championship then...

alby
07-21-2005, 06:32 PM
let's turn it down a notch there buddy i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

LRB
07-22-2005, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by: TheBlameGame


Put him on the Hawks and his assists are negative 4.

THis may not be the dumbest statement of all time, but it's definitely in the team picture.

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