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Chiwas
07-14-2005, 11:11 AM
(Should I have said "Thanks, Butch-er"?)


http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2005/jul05/050714/portada.jpg

dude1394
07-14-2005, 11:16 AM
wow....i'm speechless at this post.

MavKikiNYC
07-14-2005, 11:19 AM
Very inappropriate, Chiwas--not to mention devoid of any semblance of objective truth or reality.

Your anger, indeed the world's anger, should be directed at the murderous fanatics who blow themselves up in proximity to innocent children and other civilians.

Beyond them, you can curse the corrupt Chiraqs, the opportunitistic Schroeders and the ball-less Zapateros who collaborate with, capitalize on and capitulate to the REAL murderers in the Middle East.

capitalcity
07-14-2005, 11:59 AM
not cool.

Mavdog
07-14-2005, 12:24 PM
The American troops are there to try and protect these civilians, they (and Bush) are not responsible for the fanatical murderers who ruthlessly sacrifice innocents in their quest for blood.

By your logic Chiwas we would also be responsible for any loss of life by Iraqis if we had left Hussein in power.

I have been critical of the invasion, but I also understand that we are knee deep in this conflict and must see it through to a conclusion where the people of Iraq are better off than before we attacked. It is clear that the Iraqis are giving their lives for a better tomorrow. Unfortunately it isn't coming soon enough to save these children.

It is unfortunate that this is happening and it is disturbing to see the carnage of innocent people and especially the children. No matter what each of us believe about why the invasion was launched, I know that we all want to see an end to the violence, and an end to the terrorism. That wil only be accomplished when these fanatics are found and removed, which quite frankly the Iraqis are currently unable to do on their own.

madape
07-14-2005, 12:33 PM
Go to hell you piece of shit

Rhylan
07-14-2005, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by: Chiwas
(Should I have said "Thanks, Butch-er"?)


http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2005/jul05/050714/portada.jpg


So ridiculous that I'm quoting it to make sure it's still there in case you edit it later.

Chiwas
07-14-2005, 01:33 PM
32 children died yesterday and here nobody cares.

If Bush hadn't start this ridiculous was on Iraq these children would have been alive today.

And the oil price is close to $60.

And 39,000 civil iraquies have died in this war.

And 2,000 or so American have died and here nobody cares.

This is so stupid. The war on terror is a masquerade.


Go to hell you piece of shit Keep eating it again and again, while your teen-age dreams last.

The terrorism is not that people and that people is being murdered.

mavsman55
07-14-2005, 01:54 PM
I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion.....

Check this (http://www.fdnylodd.com/BloodofHeroes.html) out Chiwas.

Mavdog, very nice post.

Drbio
07-14-2005, 05:08 PM
Chiwas....stop being an idiot.

FishForLunch
07-14-2005, 05:43 PM
If only Bush had not thought bad thoughts about Muslims they would not have attacked Newyork in 9/11/2001. Here is what an Iraqi say's and not some Mexican who has no clue what the Islamists are tryingt to do to the west. It will not be long before they target Mexico and their infidel catholics.


Text

The "patriotic resistance" struck another strategic target in Iraq today.
They attacked Iraqi's hope and Iraq's reserves and future; they murdered Iraqi children again.

Those pathetic terrorists are afraid of the future and of the children that are going to grow up to build, plant, serve and protect their country.
No words can describe the ugliness of the massacre, no words can wipe the tears of the mothers who lost their loved ones today and no words can describe the difference between those handing sweets to the children and those handing death and pain.

The insane murderous servants of the tyrants think they can defeat us and protect their evil masters this way but they're wrong, the hand of justice will reach them just like it pulled their master from the rat hole.
The blood that was spilled today shall not go in vain and terrorists will lose and that is not going to be far from now.



Link (http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/)

dude1394
07-14-2005, 06:35 PM
I never really thought I would say that Molly Ivins had more honor than someone on this board, but I do now. Shame on this poster.

ivins (http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_2854773)

-----

Crow eaten here: This is a horror. In a column (Opinion, June 29) I asserted that more Iraqis (civilians) had now been killed in this war than had been killed by Saddam Hussein over his 24-year rule. Wrong. Really, really wrong.
The only problem is figuring out by how large a factor I was wrong. I had been keeping an eye on civilian deaths in Iraq for a couple of months, waiting for the most conservative estimates to creep over 20,000, which I had fixed in my mind as the number of Iraqi civilians Saddam had killed.
The high-end estimate of Iraqi civilian deaths in this war is 100,000, according to a Johns Hopkins University study published in the British medical journal The Lancet last October, but I was sticking to the low-end, most conservative estimates because I didn't want to be accused of exaggeration.

Ha! I could hardly have been more wrong, no matter how you count Saddam's killing of civilians. According to Human Rights Watch, Hussein killed several hundred thousand of his fellow citizens. The massacre of the Kurdish Barzani tribe in 1983 killed at least 8,000; the infamous gas attack on the Kurdish village of Halabja killed 5,000 in 1988; and seized documents from Iraqi security organizations show 182,000 were murdered during the Anfal ethnic cleansing campaign against Kurds, also in 1988.
In 1991, following the first Gulf War, both the Kurds and the Shiites rebelled. The allied forces did not intervene, and Saddam brutally suppressed both uprisings and drained the southern marshes that had been home to a local population for more than 5,000 years.
Saddam's regime left 271 mass graves, with more still being discovered. That figure alone was the source for my original mistaken estimate of 20,000. Saddam's widespread use of systematic torture, including rape, has been verified by the U.N. Committee on Human Rights and other human rights groups over the years.
There are wildly varying estimates of the number of civilians, especially babies and young children, who died as a result of the sanctions that followed the Gulf War. While it is true that the ill-advised sanctions were put in place by the United Nations, I do not see that that lessens Hussein's moral culpability, whatever blame attaches to the sanctions themselves - particularly since Saddam promptly corrupted the Oil for Food Program put in place to mitigate the effects of the sanctions, and used the proceeds to build more palaces, etc.
There have been estimates as high as 1 million civilians killed by Saddam, though most agree on the 300,000 to 400,000 range, making my comparison to 20,000 civilian dead in this war pathetically wrong.
I was certainly under no illusions regarding Saddam Hussein, whom I have opposed through human rights work for decades. My sincere apologies. It is unforgivable of me not to have checked. I am so sorry.

madape
07-14-2005, 07:15 PM
I'm not even going to try to respond to this fool. Some people are just meant to wallow in their ignorance.

Rhylan
07-14-2005, 07:25 PM
It amazes me that someone who writes as well-known a column as Molly Ivins wouldn't know that Saddam's regime had murdered at least a few hundred thousand Iraqi citizens. Hell, even I know that, and I'm just a dude who doesn't write a column.

But hey, she admitted her assumptions were wrong, and that's excellent. It still takes a staggering degree of ignorance to make the mistake in the first place, but that degree of ignorance is nothing compared to this pointless thread Chiwas started.

Seriously. There are tons and tons of reasonable reasons (even if they're mostly political) to oppose the Iraq war, even I'll admit. It's one thing to have an opinion... it's another thing to be a complete moron and make a statement like the one in the initial post of this thread. I'm sorry, there's no other way to put it but that.

Chiwas, I'm sorry your heart bleeds for everybody, but guess what? Jihadists' hearts don't bleed for anything - they could give a shit how anyone "feels" about what's going on. The murder will continue until someone stops them. Somebody had to step up and volunteer for the job. Thank goodnes for the USA, Britain, and others. I truly hope you don't represent the views of many Mexican citizens.

dude1394
07-14-2005, 07:28 PM
What it really takes (and it happens a lot to the media, imo) is that there is an agenda that they are looking for. Ivins even admits it that she was waiting for a certain number to be passed before writing her column. Her mind was made up as to what she wanted to say, she just convinced herself that she was finally correct.

However, my estimation of her integrity has gone up with that post.

Usually Lurkin
07-15-2005, 08:22 AM
Before this terrible war, there was a system for disposing of troublesome minorities:

http://massgraves.info/56.jpg

actual torture for the control of prisoners:

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/WORLD/meast/10/30/sprj.irq.torture.tape/story.torture.drop.jpg

and a plan for the youth:

http://www.iraqinews.com/images/org_ashbal_saddam.jpg http://www.iraqinews.com/images/ashbal_saddam_3.jpg



Yet, some blockheaded people still support what the US is doing. These must be a couple of neo-con oil cronies from Texas.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/GIKiss.jpg

Thespiralgoeson
07-16-2005, 05:35 AM
Nice post, UL. Chiwas, you must be one of those many people that hold the naively simplistic view of "war is not the answer." War surely isn't always the answer, and maybe it isn't in this case. I think we're doing the right thing, but we're certainly all entitled to our opinions. But when you show photos like that and start throwing around slogans about dead children, then you're talking about something else entirely. You're talking about the very nature of war itself, every war. I guarantee if you look around a little bit, you'll probably find plenty of photos similar to that one, of European and Japanese civilians that were devastated by the Allied bombing of their countries. But thus is the nature of war; it doesn't mean we did the wrong thing by invading Japan, or Nazi-controlled Europe. If you believe this war is wrong, that's fine, but showing a picture like that certainly isn't sufficient evidence to validate your opinon. Actually, it discredits your opinion by simplifying it to the point of being hoplessly unrealistic.

dude1394
07-16-2005, 10:07 AM
Terrorists, commmunists, nazis have alwasy counted on the "useful idiots" in free western societies. Their strange guilt leads them to believe that somehow their own societies are responsible for the thugs and monsters in the world. To somehow equate moral equivalence between the US's actions in Bosnia, '91, Operation Iraqi' freedom to a monstrous suicide bomber that would target 26 children getting candy is to have a very confused sense of morality, very confused.

Murphy3
07-16-2005, 11:38 AM
One thing is for sure. You can always count on Chiwas for a well thought out political post.

capitalcity
07-17-2005, 08:31 AM
Memo lists possible border terror plot

11:03 PM CDT on Saturday, July 16, 2005

By ALFREDO CORCHADO and JASON TRAHAN / The Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/071705dnintter.2012c9a.html)

Dirt roads trace pale lines across a desolate landscape of bald peaks and plunging canyons near Texas' Big Bend and bridge the border at dozens of improvised crossings. For decades, these routes have been used to smuggle drugs and humans. Now there is growing concern they could become deadly conduits for terrorism.

The concern is buttressed by a confidential but unclassified FBI intelligence bulletin, obtained by The Dallas Morning News, that contains the vague outlines of a possible terrorist plot.

Officials from both sides of the border played down the possible threat but acknowledged that it is the sort of scenario they have to guard against. The prospect of terrorists crossing the southern border has been a rising concern among officials in Texas and Washington.

The plot, according to uncorroborated information provided by an FBI informant, involves a man, described as an Arab who goes by the nickname "El Español," and Ernesto Zatarín Beliz, also known as El Traca, suspected of being a Mexican drug trafficker and member of the Zetas, the feared enforcers of the notorious Gulf cartel.

"El Español is gathering truck drivers with knowledge of truck routes in the United States and explosive experts" in the state of Coahuila, according to the March 11 memo, which originated in the San Diego FBI office and was made available by a U.S. attorney's office. The informant "believes that the activity in Coahuila, Mexico, is terrorist related."

In exchange for the Zetas' help in recruiting drivers, the memo says, the Arab – who barely speaks Spanish – promised to help them fund and execute a plan to free Gulf cartel leader Osiel Cárdenas from prison. The Gulf cartel is embroiled in a bloody turf war with rival traffickers for control of Nuevo Laredo, a key drug smuggling route into the U.S.

According to the FBI memo, El Traca was attempting to recruit a security guard at a Mexican government explosives factory in Cuatro Ciénegas, Coahuila, to assist with the Arab's plan. The region is known for producing nitric acid and ammonium nitrate, materials that are used for industrial and agricultural purposes and can also be ingredients for explosives.

The informant has "provided reliable narcotics intelligence in the past," the bulletin says, but it adds that the informant also flunked two polygraph tests.

The San Diego FBI analyst who wrote the document declined to comment. The division's spokeswoman said publication of such sensitive information would undermine the bureau's mission.

"We are trying to protect national security," said Special Agent Jan Caldwell. "We can't do that when things like this are put in newspapers."

A senior Mexican intelligence official said the information in the memo had not been corroborated.

"The informant paved a road that led nowhere," the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity. He added that Mexican federal agents spent "literally weeks chasing down the information, only to come up empty-handed."

Points confirmed

However, the Mexican intelligence official confirmed the identity of El Traca as Mr. Zatarín and said El Español was a known human trafficker, specializing in smuggling Middle Easterners and South Americans, particularly Brazilians and Paraguayans.

Mexican authorities have been unable to track down El Español, the official said.
DallasNews.com/extra

DiscussLive: Sen. John Cornyn chats about immigration policy Wednesday at 2:45 p.m.
• Send advance questions to chat@dallasnews.com.

According to the March FBI bulletin, Mexican authorities arrested Mr. Zatarín in September 2003 and found an arsenal of assault rifles in his residence, described by Mexican authorities as a "bunker utilized by Los Zetas." Mr. Zatarín later escaped, however, and his picture and name are now on a poster listing Mexico's most-wanted criminals.

"FBI intelligence indicates that Los Zetas are becoming increasingly involved in systematic corruption as well as alien smuggling ... [including] special interest aliens to the U.S.," the bulletin concludes.

Since the 2001 terrorist attacks, the Bush administration and members of Congress from both parties have viewed the southern border as a weak link in efforts to keep terrorists out of the United States, even though the 9-11 terrorists entered the country with visas, some legal, others forged.

"That's been the concern all along, that there would be a bargain struck between al-Qaeda or some [other] terrorist organization and these organized crime networks that would allow terrorists to be smuggled into the country," U.S. Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, said in an interview. "I think that's a very real concern."

At a hearing Tuesday of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the chairman, Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., said: "Given the threat of international terrorism, there is great concern that our land borders could also serve as a channel for international terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. The threat of terrorist penetration is particularly acute along our southern border."

Senior U.S. officials added that other criminal groups such as the Mara Salvatrucha – the Central American gang that has moved into several U.S. cities and has a growing presence along the U.S.-Mexico border – also are a top concern for U.S. authorities.

Mr. Lugar said 3,000 to 4,000 of the 119,000 non-Mexican immigrants apprehended so far this year trying to cross illegally into the U.S. were from "countries of interest" such as Somalia, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. That number is up from 75,371 for all of 2004 and is expected to reach 148,000 by fiscal year's end.

Adm. James Loy, former Homeland Security deputy secretary, declined to comment on the specific plot outlined in the FBI memo, but earlier this year he suggested that such a threat is real.

"Entrenched human-smuggling networks and corruption in areas beyond our borders can be exploited by terrorist organizations," Mr. Loy said in written testimony at a congressional hearing in February. "Several al-Qaeda leaders believe operatives can pay their way into the country through Mexico and also believe illegal entry is more advantageous than legal entry for operational security reasons."

Easier elsewhere?

But law enforcement officials discounted the suggestion that terrorists would use the rugged Big Bend area to transport explosives – especially in a tractor-trailer that would glaringly stand out.

"I think there would be easier ways to get explosives inside the United States,"said Benjamine Carry Huffman, assistant chief patrol agent for U.S. Customs and Border Protection in Marfa. He pointed out that Interstate 10 is a two-hour drive from the border area of Presidio but that there was immediate access to it in El Paso.

But the intelligence bulletin noted that the alleged terrorist plot, as relayed by the informant, was still a work in progress, leaving open the possibility that less conspicuous vehicles might be employed. And the FBI memo said that "one possible smuggling route Traca wanted to use was through Big Bend National Park."

The border patrol's Marfa sector is its largest, covering 510 miles of border with Mexico, including part of Big Bend National Park, and bordering the Mexican states of Chihuahua and Coahuila. With some 200 agents, it has the smallest force of any sector along the Mexican border, according to Bill Brooks, the sector spokesman.

Much of the area is desert and mountainous terrain, dotted by at least a dozen informal crossings known as Class B ports of entry. These consist of makeshift bridges capable of carrying foot and some lighter vehicle traffic. Authorities tried to seal them off after Sept. 11, 2001, but several have been re-established. Officials acknowledged that agents cannot regularly police the informal crossings.

"Who ever imagined that terrorists would use passenger planes to crash into tall buildings?" Mr. Hoffman said. "After Sept. 11, we have to operate on a different mindset, one in which we take absolutely nothing for granted. Is it possible terrorists can come across this border with explosives or a dirty bomb? Absolutely."

Underdog
04-04-2008, 11:38 AM
I love these old posts - I wonder if some of you still have the same opinion 3 years later???

And the oil price is close to $60.

And 39,000 civil iraquies have died in this war.

And 2,000 or so American have died and here nobody cares.


Price of oil - $105/barrel

Dead Iraqi Civilians - 1,196,514

Dead American Troops - 4,013 (29,296 wounded)

Exit Strategy - ZERO (still)




But who cares?
(hint: not you)

Ninkobei
04-04-2008, 12:18 PM
is that number correct? 1.2 million dead iraqis? oh my..

Underdog
04-04-2008, 12:41 PM
is that number correct? 1.2 million dead iraqis? oh my..

The US government puts the number at 90,184, but our allies in the UK say otherwise:


It is at least 10 times greater than most estimates cited in the US media, yet it is based on a scientific study of violent Iraqi deaths caused by the U.S.-led invasion of March 2003.

That study, published in prestigious medical journal The Lancet, estimated that over 600,000 Iraqis had been killed (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html) as a result of the invasion as of July 2006. Iraqis have continued to be killed since then.

The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in September 2007. Opinion Research Business estimated that 1.2 million Iraqis have been killed violently (http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=78) since the US invasion.

Dirkadirkastan
04-04-2008, 12:52 PM
Exit Strategy - ZERO (still)

Who are we fighting?

and

What are the terms for victory?

are questions that rarely get a clear answer.

Underdog
04-04-2008, 01:15 PM
Who are we fighting?

and

What are the terms for victory?

are questions that rarely get a clear answer.

The answers to your questions are very simple:


Q. Who are we fighting?
A. Terrorism (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4663308762892839834&q=robot+chicken+terrorism&total=37&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4).

Q. What are the terms for victory?
A. You're starting to sound like a terrorist...


Hell, Dirkadirkastan (http://www.notcoming.com/animation/images/clp_teamamericaterrorist.gif) even sounds like a terrorist name!
(because Muslim/Middle Eastern = Terrorist)

bernardos70
04-04-2008, 01:52 PM
"We from Kazakhstan support your war of terror! May George Bush drink the blood of every man, woman, and child in Iraq!"

GermanDunk
04-04-2008, 03:11 PM
I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion.....

Check this (http://www.fdnylodd.com/BloodofHeroes.html) out Chiwas.

Mavdog, very nice post.

But the right state should have been chosen. Not a single Iraqi did fly.

Arne
04-04-2008, 03:28 PM
But the right state should have been chosen. Not a single Iraqi did fly.
Hmm and then you think McCain would be a fine president, even though he want's the US to stay there for a hundred years if neccesary?

Underdog
04-04-2008, 03:43 PM
http://watch.windsofchange.net/pics/try_and_stop_us.jpg

GermanDunk
04-04-2008, 03:49 PM
Hmm and then you think McCain would be a fine president, even though he want's the US to stay there for a hundred years if neccesary?

I said i held Paul and Cain for more authentic than Hill and Obama.

Glad we have such intelligent people over here ( in good old germany ).

Your better. Arne wins !

Dim499
04-04-2008, 04:22 PM
But the right state should have been chosen. Not a single Iraqi did fly.
What are you doing dude? How old are you?

GermanDunk
04-04-2008, 04:49 PM
What are you doing dude? How old are you?

What do you exactly mean, i´m doing ? Just wanted to point out, no / or just one Iraqi did fly on Sept. 11.

Dim499
04-04-2008, 05:09 PM
What do you exactly mean, i´m doing ? Just wanted to point out, no / or just one Iraqi did fly on Sept. 11.
Are you seriously trying to convince these people tht the war wasn't a good idea, using questionable grammar no less? Don't anger these people.
You're so much better off just coming here for basketball. I prefer not to know what Flacolaco thinks of poor people or the Kyoto protocol. And you should roll the same way.
Have you never seen Back to the Future?

dude1394
04-04-2008, 05:27 PM
I love these old posts - I wonder if some of you still have the same opinion 3 years later???



Price of oil - $105/barrel === Do you believe global warming is happening, if so then what the hell are you bitching about? It's called economics moron.

Dead Iraqi Civilians - 1,196,514 - bull****

Dead American Troops - 4,013 (29,296 wounded) - heroes all

Exit Strategy - ZERO (still) - sure there is it's just not the
---- run away and let all of our iraqi allies be tortured to death.




But who has enough brains to comprehend reality?
(hint: not you)

dude1394
04-04-2008, 05:29 PM
The US government puts the number at 90,184, but our allies in the UK say otherwise:

err..the Lancet is far from our UK alliies. They are hmmm...whaddya' call 'em...like discredited.

dude1394
04-04-2008, 05:32 PM
Hmm and then you think McCain would be a fine president, even though he want's the US to stay there for a hundred years if neccesary?

Which part of "if necessary" do you not understand? How long should we stay in Korea? How long should we stay in nato? etc.

Underdog
04-04-2008, 05:34 PM
But who has enough brains to comprehend reality?
(hint: not you)


Mudslinging backed by zero content???

You should run for office!


EDIT: maybe as a Democrat...

Arne
04-04-2008, 05:39 PM
Which part of "if necessary" do you not understand? How long should we stay in Korea? How long should we stay in nato? etc.
There's no exit strategy, there'S no enemy except for terrorism, which is a tactic, not a people. If you want to stop terrorism, then you first have to understand the incentives for these people.

If you want to start a new crusade then just go on like right now.

Dim499
04-04-2008, 05:41 PM
There's no exit strategy, there'S no enemy except for terrorism, which is a tactic, not a people. If you want to stop terrorism, then you first have to understand the incentives for these people.

If you want to start a new crusade then just go on like right now.
oh boy...

GermanDunk
04-04-2008, 05:49 PM
Are you seriously trying to convince these people tht the war wasn't a good idea, using questionable grammar no less? Don't anger these people.
You're so much better off just coming here for basketball. I prefer not to know what Flacolaco thinks of poor people or the Kyoto protocol. And you should roll the same way.
Have you never seen Back to the Future?

Your words are very wise. Indeed you are right. Your shouldn´t step into discussion if you are not always able to find the right words.

But it wasn´t my intention to convince the people what was right or not. I just wanted to pronounce that Iraq wasn´t involved. And i´m interested in what am. folks think.

But never the less, you´re right. Back to Basketball.

p.s. I ´m for Kyoto, but i for myself was shooting along the A8 with a 911 at 250 kmh. All human beings :o

Dim499
04-04-2008, 05:56 PM
p.s. I ´m for Kyoto, but i for myself was shooting along the A8 with a 911 at 250 kmh. All human beings :o
Nah, you can do what you want. I was just kidding about that stuff. Also now that I know you drive a Porsche your opinion means much more to me. ;)

GermanDunk
04-04-2008, 06:04 PM
Nah, you can do what you want. I was just kidding about that stuff. Also now that I know you drive a Porsche your opinion means much more to me. ;)

Ah, then i even know better what you meant, because i didn´t notice you was kidding.

No, i don´t drive Porsche, because 1st) i can´t afford, 2nd) enviroment matters :p

Janett_Reno
04-04-2008, 06:28 PM
They can't defend Bush, Ashcroft, Rumsfield and Cheney. How low can you go when you are the worst? You know a catfish, a bottom feeder. It is also sad to compare George W Bush to the American troops and the American troops would not appreciate those comments.

http://hnn.us/articles/48916.html

HNN Poll: 61% of Historians Rate the Bush Presidency Worst

I see the administration of the second Bush as clearly the worst in our history. My reasons are similar to those cited by other historians: In the wake of the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, the United States enjoyed enormous support around the world. President Bush squandered that goodwill by taking the country into an unnecessary war of choice and misleading the American people to gain support for that war. And he failed utterly to have a plan to deal with Iraq after the invasion. He further undermined the international reputation of the United States by justifying torture.

Mr. Bush inherited a sizable budget surplus and a thriving economy. By pushing through huge tax cuts for the rich while increasing federal spending at a rapid rate, Bush transformed the surplus into a massive deficit. The tax cuts and other policies accelerated the concentration of wealth and income among the very richest Americans. These policies combined with unwavering opposition to necessary government regulations have produced the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Then there is the incredible shrinking dollar, the appointment of incompetent cronies, the totally inexcusable failure to react properly to the disaster of Hurricane Katrina, the blatant disregard for the Constitution—and on and on.

Like a majority of other historians who participated in this poll, my conclusion is that the preponderance of the evidence now indicates that, while this nation has had at least its share of failed presidencies, no previous presidency was as large a failure in so many areas as the current one.

Janett_Reno
04-04-2008, 07:04 PM
Hagel: McCain Facing Electoral Buzzsaw Over Iraq

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/03/hagel-mccain-facing-elect_n_94934.html

The Republican Party and its presumptive nominee Sen. John McCain are heading into a 2008 electoral buzzsaw with their continued support of the Iraq war, Sen. Chuck Hagel said in an interview with The Huffington Post on Thursday.

The country is still very sour on the war, the Nebraska Republican pressed, and support for candidates who want to stay the course is simply not there.

"I am concerned about the [party still holding on to Iraq as an issue]," said Hagel. "If for no other reason than the political factors here are quite obvious. This country has made a decision on Iraq, and as you see now in any poll, even a minimum of 25 percent of the registered Republicans cannot support the president's policy in Iraq. You take that with the independents and Democrats and you have anywhere between 60 and 70 percent who want out. So you can't politically sustain this and any party that uses this as an issue when they are going in the face of where America is, is not going to do very well politically. That is just the facts of life."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The way i see it "Janett_Reno", if you like middle east war and want to stay in Iraq, possibly go into Syria and Iran, McCain should be your man. Who cares about the economy and do not be fooled, why oil is over $100.00 a barrel is alot of Bush and Chains invading Iraq and staying. The job market, do not be fooled, read today.

If you care about the economy, borders and the American citizens protected, jobs, healtch care, oil and gas prices(and yes gas will start to come down as soon as Hillary or Obama is in and we start getting out of Iraq), the middle class, then you need to look at Obama and Hillary. In the end, i do not think the American people will choose 4 more years of the 7 we have had. Trickle down economics doesn't work as Bill Clinton showed us that and so did George W Bush. We was filthy rich with Clinton and broke under George W Bush.

It just don't trickle down, it stops somewhere along the way.

dude1394
04-04-2008, 07:12 PM
They can't defend Bush, Ashcroft, Rumsfield and Cheney. How low can you go when you are the worst? You know a catfish, a bottom feeder. It is also sad to compare George W Bush to the American troops and the American troops would not appreciate those comments.

http://hnn.us/articles/48916.html

HNN Poll: 61% of Historians Rate the Bush Presidency Worst

You know this is why you aren't worth listening to janet (becides being delusional about big oil).

HNN poll?? History News Network??

An unscientific poll of professional historians completed the same week produced results far worse for a president clinging to the hope that history will someday take a kinder view of his presidency than does contemporary public opinion.

What should I think about a "historian" who can't even wait for a president to be in office before voicing an opinion. Let's see first (hack), second(devoid of integrity).

Here's a quote from one of those "historians"

“No individual president can compare to the second Bush,” wrote one. “Glib, contemptuous, ignorant, incurious, a dupe of anyone who humors his deluded belief in his heroic self, he has bankrupted the country with his disastrous war and his tax breaks for the rich, trampled on the Bill of Rights, appointed foxes in every henhouse, compounded the terrorist threat, turned a blind eye to torture and corruption and a looming ecological disaster, and squandered the rest of the world’s goodwill. In short, no other president’s faults have had so deleterious an effect on not only the country but the world at large.”

Reads like democrat talking points. I'm shocked I didn't see a bush-hitler or a monkey-face in there.

Go back to the kos-kids where you and they can wallow in your ignorance.

Janett_Reno
04-04-2008, 07:33 PM
And dude, you are the one that can't give reasons why we are in Iraq. It sounds like your reason was Sadam was a bad man. It sounds like to me dude Bin Laden is a bad man and is the one we should be after.

Something else you need to think about with Pat Robertson, the American people aren't going to let Chains and W invade Syria and Iran because they have already flubbed the dub going into Iraq and now the country you really feared dude is now even stronger and in better position, Iran. Explain that dude?

If i am givng Democrat talking points, please give the people Republican talking points? Is that Faith, Values, Morals, Republican Judges, Against Gays and against abortion, the Democrats will tax you so beware and the Democrats will take your guns and fishing poles away? Those one liners won't work in the next election. Good luck trying.

Other night Letterman asked McCain some things as McCain and just like W and Chains is trying to scare everyone with the terrorist word. So Letterman asked about the economy, falling dollar, gas prices, people losing houses and etc but all McCain can say, yea people are hurting.

Rove has told him and all Republicans do not mention "Recession". You know dude, to tell the truth but Obama will give McCain plenty to think about with words like Recession, Oil, Economy, Faith, Values, Morals, Housing market, Falling Dollar, Middle class, and Hillary will even say the word Health care and Obama will say the word change. These things McCain better be practicing on because dude he will not win the election on Iraq alone.

dude1394
04-04-2008, 08:51 PM
And dude, you are the one that can't give reasons why we are in Iraq. It sounds like your reason was Sadam was a bad man. It sounds like to me dude Bin Laden is a bad man and is the one we should be after.

Something else you need to think about with Pat Robertson, the American people aren't going to let Chains and W invade Syria and Iran because they have already flubbed the dub going into Iraq and now the country you really feared dude is now even stronger and in better position, Iran. Explain that dude?

If i am givng Democrat talking points, please give the people Republican talking points? Is that Faith, Values, Morals, Republican Judges, Against Gays and against abortion, the Democrats will tax you so beware and the Democrats will take your guns and fishing poles away? Those one liners won't work in the next election. Good luck trying.

Other night Letterman asked McCain some things as McCain and just like W and Chains is trying to scare everyone with the terrorist word. So Letterman asked about the economy, falling dollar, gas prices, people losing houses and etc but all McCain can say, yea people are hurting.

Rove has told him and all Republicans do not mention "Recession". You know dude, to tell the truth but Obama will give McCain plenty to think about with words like Recession, Oil, Economy, Faith, Values, Morals, Housing market, Falling Dollar, Middle class, and Hillary will even say the word Health care and Obama will say the word change. These things McCain better be practicing on because dude he will not win the election on Iraq alone.

Janett...I've given zillions of reasons why we went into iraq, and for your information there are quite a few democrats (hillary, kerry, etc.) who voted to go in, if I recall it was about (77-23 in favor). It's useless to try and convince someone like yourself who actually believes it was to enrich halliburton. It's like trying to argue with someone who believes in the tooth fairy.

edit: to help you out "zillions" was hyperbole.

ShaggyDirk
04-04-2008, 08:57 PM
sweet thread.

GermanDunk
04-04-2008, 09:03 PM
There probably are some very good reasons but the guy are not going to tell them.

rabbitproof
04-05-2008, 11:38 AM
it's an all-around failure, pity and clusterfuck.

life certainly isn't better than it was for most parties involved.



EDIT: on a positive note, the nation is savvy, hates the war and is going to try to end it. hope the system works and washington will comply.

kappasigma
04-05-2008, 02:30 PM
I love these old posts - I wonder if some of you still have the same opinion 3 years later???



Price of oil - $105/barrel

Dead Iraqi Civilians - 1,196,514

Dead American Troops - 4,013 (29,296 wounded)

Exit Strategy - ZERO (still)




But who cares?
(hint: not you)

i'm not for or against bush, but i was shocked by the number of dead Iraqi's. I had no idea the number was so high, they don't report that on tv. i saw on wikipedia the population of iraq is 29,267,000. i still don't feel safer than i did right after 9/11, and i heard the taliban in afghanistan are stronger than before.

GermanDunk
04-05-2008, 04:49 PM
i'm not for or against bush, but i was shocked by the number of dead Iraqi's. I had no idea the number was so high, they don't report that on tv. i saw on wikipedia the population of iraq is 29,267,000. i still don't feel safer than i did right after 9/11, and i heard the taliban in afghanistan are stronger than before.


Then something is wrong with US media for sure. .. ... not to count fatilities as result of sanctions during Iraq I !

ribosoma
04-06-2008, 12:06 AM
Then something is wrong with US media for sure. .. ... not to count fatilities as result of sanctions during Iraq I !
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42850000/jpg/_42850983_416us-iraq_ap.jpg

Martin Luther King, Jr. - Beyond Vietnam (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8056097176965880805&q=Beyond+Vietnam&total=193&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

"Our nation is somewhat sad, but we’re angry. There’s a certain level of blood lust, but we won’t let it drive our reaction. We’re steady, clear-eyed and patient, but pretty soon we’ll have to start displaying scalps."

~ George W. Bush

“Naturally the common people don’t want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

~ Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

"Vietnam should remind conservatives that whenever you put your faith in big government for any reason, sooner or later you wind up an apologist for mass murder."

~ Karl Hess

“All this was inspired by the principle — which is quite true in itself — that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.”

~ Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

AxdemxO
04-06-2008, 12:59 AM
I dont get into these discussions because theres a few ignorant people here who are soo out of touch with reality, just like Bush...and they will just post on and on how they are right and how your not as if theyr experts and know everything.

BUSH SUKS PERIOD.....not only is the US in Chaos because of him, but half the world is

Flacolaco
04-06-2008, 02:30 AM
i]-i still don't feel safer than i did right after 9/11, and i heard the taliban in afghanistan are stronger than before.

There haven't been anymore terrorist attacks on US soil. And they have certainly been trying.

But you guys should continue to dishonor every brave American soldier, who has willingly and freely given up their freedom to become a target over there, so that you and your family don't have to be a target here.

Hating America is so cool.

dude1394
04-06-2008, 04:15 AM
I dont get into these discussions because theres a few ignorant people here who are soo out of touch with reality, just like Bush...and they will just post on and on how they are right and how your not as if theyr experts and know everything.

BUSH SUKS PERIOD.....not only is the US in Chaos because of him, but half the world is

This post is funny. Lambasting "ignorant folks" who "post on and on how they are right" and then ending with a "PERIOD". Not funny haha.

AxdemxO
04-06-2008, 07:19 AM
This post is funny. Lambasting "ignorant folks" who "post on and on how they are right" and then ending with a "PERIOD". Not funny haha.

Yupp thats my opinion...I wont tell you tht you are wrong, stupid, or dont know what you are talking about, but if a few million possibly billion people think you are. Then you mite wana think about it

Underdog
04-06-2008, 09:28 AM
There haven't been anymore terrorist attacks on US soil. And they have certainly been trying.

But you guys should continue to dishonor every brave American soldier, who has willingly and freely given up their freedom to become a target over there, so that you and your family don't have to be a target here.

Hating America is so cool.


Ending an illegal, unnecessary war against the citizens of Iraq = dishonoring soldiers???


My buddy in Iraq would disagree... He thinks people who blindly support this administration are the real ones dishonoring the troops by backing a war that many of our soldiers don't even believe in anymore - THEIR lives are the ones being put at risk for no good reason while OSAMA BIN LADEN IS ALIVE & WELL somewhere in the world (we're not even looking for that guy anymore!)... He says the only reason troops over there support the war is because they're in the middle of it - they HAVE to believe in it, otherwise they start losing limbs and lives...

He also says that out of the dozens of humans he's killed, very few (if any) were al Qaeda - most of the people he's engaged in combat have been "freedom fighters" (contrary to what our media reports) who simply want America out of their country... Imagine how you'd feel if every illegal immigrant in America had machine guns - would you just sit around and let them do whatever the hell they wanted to or would you blast them back to Mexico???

And mind you, we're not talking about some peace-nick here; my buddy is a killer (his word) for the US Army and LOVES what he does - when the Army needs folks dead, his unit is the first into combat... He loves America and our freedoms & would gladly die so you can sit safely behind your computer and suggest that his life would be be better spent terrorizing (his word) Iraqis than going after the people who had ANYTHING to do with 9/11 (our OWN government proved there was no connection between Iraq & al Qaeda until AFTER we invaded that country...)


I don't understand how you can equate "questioning tyranny" with "hating America" - if anything, pulling out of a war that should never have started in the first place is GOOD for this country... The war in Iraq isn't about fighting some abstract term such as "terrorism" (70% of al Qaeda operatives are in INDONESIA) - this war is about creating instability in the Middle East so Bush's private interests can suck up all the oil while the American people foot the bill (with OUR taxes and OUR lives...)

There is no exit strategy because the purpose of this war is to keep fighting the war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four) - that is NOT what this country is about (and take your Nazi America-hating ass elsewhere if you think otherwise!)

ribosoma
04-06-2008, 10:21 AM
There haven't been anymore terrorist attacks on US soil. And they have certainly been trying.

But you guys should continue to dishonor every brave American soldier, who has willingly and freely given up their freedom to become a target over there, so that you and your family don't have to be a target here.

Hating America is so cool.

"Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."

- Mark Twain The Mysterious Stranger

“Naturally the common people don’t want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

- Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

"Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth"

- Mark Twain

AxdemxO
04-06-2008, 11:08 AM
Ending an illegal, unnecessary war against the citizens of Iraq = dishonoring soldiers???


My buddy in Iraq would disagree... He thinks people who blindly support this administration are the real ones dishonoring the troops by backing a war that many of our soldiers don't even believe in anymore - THEIR lives are the ones being put at risk for no good reason while OSAMA BIN LADEN IS ALIVE & WELL somewhere in the world (we're not even looking for that guy anymore!)... He says the only reason troops over there support the war is because they're in the middle of it - they HAVE to believe in it, otherwise they start losing limbs and lives...

He also says that out of the dozens of humans he's killed, very few (if any) were al Qaeda - most of the people he's engaged in combat have been "freedom fighters" (contrary to what our media reports) who simply want America out of their country... Imagine how you'd feel if every illegal immigrant in America had machine guns - would you just sit around and let them do whatever the hell they wanted to or would you blast them back to Mexico???

And mind you, we're not talking about some peace-nick here; my buddy is a killer (his word) for the US Army and LOVES what he does - when the Army needs folks dead, his unit is the first into combat... He loves America and our freedoms & would gladly die so you can sit safely behind your computer and suggest that his life would be be better spent terrorizing (his word) Iraqis than going after the people who had ANYTHING to do with 9/11 (our OWN government proved there was no connection between Iraq & al Qaeda until AFTER we invaded that country...)


I don't understand how you can equate "questioning tyranny" with "hating America" - if anything, pulling out of a war that should never have started in the first place is GOOD for this country... The war in Iraq isn't about fighting some abstract term such as "terrorism" (70% of al Qaeda operatives are in INDONESIA) - this war is about creating instability in the Middle East so Bush's private interests can suck up all the oil while the American people foot the bill (with OUR taxes and OUR lives...)

There is no exit strategy because the purpose of this war is to keep fighting the war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four) - that is NOT what this country is about (and take your Nazi America-hating ass elsewhere if you think otherwise!)


Wow mann GREAT POST...couldnt say it better

dude1394
04-06-2008, 11:15 AM
There is no exit strategy because the purpose of this war is to keep fighting the war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four) - that is NOT what this country is about (and take your Nazi America-hating ass elsewhere if you think otherwise!)

Bullcrap...The exit strategy is and has always been to stand up the iraqi's so they can defend and govern themselves as a democracy. Same exit strategy that existed in japan, germany, korea, italy, etc.

This is where the left shows their ignorance(and hatred actually), this has never been a war for the sake of war (if so why did YOUR senator, representative vote for it). If you want to say it was ill-conceived, fine you can make a case, but when it gets into these EEEEEVVVVIIIILLLLL motives is when the left shows that they really are just unhinged.

IMO :
Oh and as aside I think it rich Axdexemo that you post this:
Yupp thats my opinion...I wont tell you tht you are wrong, stupid, or dont know what you are talking about, but if a few million possibly billion people think you are. Then you mite wana think about it in defense of this one
I dont get into these discussions because theres a few ignorant people here who are soo out of touch with reality,
There may be a reason someone might be calling you a brick short of a load there budda'.

But back to it: (I've posted on this many times but for those who find it difficult to look at other threads).
After 9/11 the guvment tried to determine the best way to DEFEAT this terrorist threat of Al Queda that was being brought against us. You do realize that the WTC was planned to kill not 3,000 but greater than 30,000 people. This was no bus bombing that was going on here. If someone will kill 30,000 then I think they might just as well kill 3million.

So here was a terrorist attack that cost this county many billions of dollars in commerce in one day. I've seen some estimates of 500billion dollars by the reduction of our GDP 0.5 and 1.2 percentage points. A pretty big deal in other words.

Now how to DEFEAT it and protect ourselves from a possibly even more catastrophic attack. Not bring one dude to justice, but defeat it for your progreny. Presidents of most powerful nations on earth think in longer terms than their own election and popularity.

Enter the worst case scenario, a terrorist who is smart enough to hijack 4 planes simultaenously and take out the WTC and the pentagon with another one slated for either the White House or Congress.

Sadaam was about to come out of his box, he was a known supporter of terrorist activities and the US had been at war with him for almost 8 years. Many of the pre-eminent intelligence agencies believed he had WMD. You prepare for what the enemy CAN do, not what the enemy MIGHT do. So the thought of Saddam out of his box working with Al Queda was the worst case scenario.

However...the real long-term problem with terrorism in the world is the islamic countries and their bass-ackwards cultures. The lack of religious or political tolerance in those societies. Except for turkey few democracies anywhere.

So the strategy was to do a few things:
- Give Saddam an opportunity to abide by the UN resolutions and get rid of his WMD programs, if not take him out. Dubya goes to UN, gets resolution, goes to congress, gets resolution, goes to american people, gets re-elected, etc. No coup, no deception all pretty upfront.
- Foster a democracy in the middle of the Middle East. A prosperous non-sectarian democracy. To lance the boil as it were on the middle east, to hopefully open it up to political change.
- The belief that democracy is the normal state of mankind and that people who are governing themselves (instead of a lunatic dictator) would not engage in terrorist activities against their neighbor.

So that was the plan IMO. You can argue whether it was right or wrong or way to idealistic but that was the plan. Not to grab their oil, enrich halliburtion, get back at saddam or any of that other crap.

Just to try and DEFEAT terrorism for you and your progeny and in the meanwhile free millions of people being ruled by dictators and tyrants.

Underdog
04-06-2008, 11:49 AM
Bullcrap...The exit strategy is and has always been to stand up the iraqi's so they can defend and govern themselves as a democracy. Same exit strategy that existed in japan, germany, korea, italy, etc.

This is where the left shows their ignorance(and hatred actually), this has never been a war for the sake of war (if so why did YOUR senator, representative vote for it). If you want to say it was ill-conceived, fine you can make a case, but when it gets into these EEEEEVVVVIIIILLLLL motives is when the left shows that they really are just unhinged.

IMO :
Oh and as aside I think it rich Axdexemo that you post this:
in defense of this one

There may be a reason someone might be calling you a brick short of a load there budda'.

But back to it: (I've posted on this many times but for those who find it difficult to look at other threads).
After 9/11 the guvment tried to determine the best way to DEFEAT this terrorist threat of Al Queda that was being brought against us. You do realize that the WTC was planned to kill not 3,000 but greater than 30,000 people. This was no bus bombing that was going on here. If someone will kill 30,000 then I think they might just as well kill 3million.

So here was a terrorist attack that cost this county many billions of dollars in commerce in one day. I've seen some estimates of 500billion dollars by the reduction of our GDP 0.5 and 1.2 percentage points. A pretty big deal in other words.

Now how to DEFEAT it and protect ourselves from a possibly even more catastrophic attack. Not bring one dude to justice, but defeat it for your progreny. Presidents of most powerful nations on earth think in longer terms than their own election and popularity.

Enter the worst case scenario, a terrorist who is smart enough to hijack 4 planes simultaenously and take out the WTC and the pentagon with another one slated for either the White House or Congress.

Sadaam was about to come out of his box, he was a known supporter of terrorist activities and the US had been at war with him for almost 8 years. Many of the pre-eminent intelligence agencies believed he had WMD. You prepare for what the enemy CAN do, not what the enemy MIGHT do. So the thought of Saddam out of his box working with Al Queda was the worst case scenario.

However...the real long-term problem with terrorism in the world is the islamic countries and their bass-ackwards cultures. The lack of religious or political tolerance in those societies. Except for turkey few democracies anywhere.

So the strategy was to do a few things:
- Give Saddam an opportunity to abide by the UN resolutions and get rid of his WMD programs, if not take him out. Dubya goes to UN, gets resolution, goes to congress, gets resolution, goes to american people, gets re-elected, etc. No coup, no deception all pretty upfront.
- Foster a democracy in the middle of the Middle East. A prosperous non-sectarian democracy. To lance the boil as it were on the middle east, to hopefully open it up to political change.
- The belief that democracy is the normal state of mankind and that people who are governing themselves (instead of a lunatic dictator) would not engage in terrorist activities against their neighbor.

So that was the plan IMO. You can argue whether it was right or wrong or way to idealistic but that was the plan. Not to grab their oil, enrich halliburtion, get back at saddam or any of that other crap.

Just to try and DEFEAT terrorism for you and your progeny and in the meanwhile free millions of people being ruled by dictators and tyrants.


I like how you ignored 100% of my post except for the last line - it shows you don't want to have an open-minded discussion about the war so much as you want to list FOXNews' latest talking points... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

And please don't lump me in with other people you're debating because I could give a shit less about "the left" - I don't identify myself as one of those people, so don't pretend like you know my politics, ideas, or opinions just because you know theirs...

dude1394
04-06-2008, 01:01 PM
I like how you ignored 100% of my post except for the last line - it shows you don't want to have an open-minded discussion about the war so much as you want to list FOXNews' latest talking points... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

And please don't lump me in with other people you're debating because I could give a shit less about "the left" - I don't identify myself as one of those people, so don't pretend like you know my politics, ideas, or opinions just because you know theirs...

This wasn't directed just at you specifically, it was an answer to many posts here about what I do/do not believe. I targeted your exit strategy because it's so over the top and ridiculous. It was a good springboard.

With respect to Foxnews I haven't watched it for about a year, so quit projecting what you THINK I am doing to what you think someone who disagrees with you thinks.

It's funny to me again (with you and aexm??) that you ping me for "lumping you somewhere" while you lump me with the "FOXNEWS talking points"

I've had this discussion many times, I"m not really interested in having it with someone who while whining that I neglected YOUR points, quoted my whole post and without addressing any of them either, because you feel that I should with baited-breath refute your pearls of wisdom.

I feel that most folks are engaging in monday-morning quarterbacking at best and basically trying to re-write motives/history at worst.

kappasigma
04-06-2008, 01:10 PM
There haven't been anymore terrorist attacks on US soil. And they have certainly been trying.

But you guys should continue to dishonor every brave American soldier, who has willingly and freely given up their freedom to become a target over there, so that you and your family don't have to be a target here.

Hating America is so cool.


you moron, no where did i say anything about the JOB that the troops were doing. They are doing their job, i know, my brother serves in the 1st Infantry Division from Fort Hood.

kappasigma
04-06-2008, 01:15 PM
last i checked, the troops didn't create a war and the troops don't have finanical contributors who run defense companies who have become richer than your wilder dreams, while you support their cause, they make a killing (literally) and you pay all of your paycheck on high living expenses. what does KBR, aka Haliburton, have to do with the troops, or our safety? Oh but they got about 8 billion dollars in contracts in afghanistan alone to build what?........embassies & offices!

Underdog
04-06-2008, 01:33 PM
I've had this discussion many times, I"m not really interested in having it with someone who while whining that I neglected YOUR points, quoted my whole post and without addressing any of them either, because you feel that I should with baited-breath refute your pearls of wisdom.

I believe I did address the entirety of your post when I said "we'll have to agree to disagree" - why would I bang my head against a wall presenting counter-points when you've already ignored what I had to say in my previous posts?

I could turn on FOXNews and scream at the TV with equal results (oh, and try not to copy FOXNews' talking points verbatim before you deny being influenced by them...)

kappasigma
04-06-2008, 01:33 PM
There haven't been anymore terrorist attacks on US soil. And they have certainly been trying.

But you guys should continue to dishonor every brave American soldier, who has willingly and freely given up their freedom to become a target over there, so that you and your family don't have to be a target here.

Hating America is so cool.


maybe our culture and way of thought has to do with the fact that we are the only country who can't go 2 decades without a war. i think all countries get terrorist attacks, iraq gets terrorist attacks from israel, afghans get attacked from russians. Europeans get attacked. we are not the only ones, but we sure as hell profit bigtime when we do. maybe the arabs wouldn't hate us if we didn't supply israel with weapons and the green light to attack them, then we secretly arm and train the arabs, then tell israel about their setup. iran-iraq war, we support saddam and sell him weapons, then we secretly supply the iranians at the same time during the iran contra.

i think some of those guys might have the internet and were able to read on wikipedia about these things and they got pissed.

How about the terrorist attacks we face everyday here in north texas by illegal immigrants who can murder and have no way of being traced since they are not registered anywhere. illegal immigrant attack our neighborhoods killing a few at a time.


http://photos4.flickr.com/4433436_7581afe93a.jpg
http://www.oilempire.us/graphics/bushladen_network.gif



finally, the last thing i have to say is if we are the super power of the world and can't figure out a way to get rid of some arab in the caves of afghanistan without murdering millions of men, women and children, then we haven't progressed as a society.

dude1394
04-06-2008, 02:13 PM
last i checked, the troops didn't create a war and the troops don't have finanical contributors who run defense companies who have become richer than your wilder dreams, while you support their cause, they make a killing (literally) and you pay all of your paycheck on high living expenses. what does KBR, aka Haliburton, have to do with the troops, or our safety? Oh but they got about 8 billion dollars in contracts in afghanistan alone to build what?........embassies & offices!

blah,blah,blah,halliburton,blah,blah,oil,blah,blah ,blah,clinton,blah,blah,kerry,blah,edwards,blah,bl ah, blair...

Look you want to say this was a foolish thing to do fine, but if you say it was so that someone could make money on it (while losing their lives, check out kbr employees, convoy drivers, etc.) then you being to sound like a lunatic.

dude1394
04-06-2008, 02:17 PM
I believe I did address the entirety of your post when I said "we'll have to agree to disagree" - why would I bang my head against a wall presenting counter-points when you've already ignored what I had to say in my previous posts?

I could turn on FOXNews and scream at the TV with equal results (oh, and try not to copy FOXNews' talking points verbatim before you deny being influenced by them...)

You can believe whatever you want, as I said I haven't seen foxnews in about a year, if my opinion matches what others who are on the show say, the so be it. My opinions are based on what I saw, read, observed, deduced, etc. I've also been quite influenced by VDH, Huffington, Bernard Lewis, steven den beste and there is a stellar current blog called backtalk that would help you reality-challenged folks to make up your own minds about things versus perusing the dailykos'kids.
http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com/

dude1394
04-06-2008, 02:21 PM
maybe our culture and way of thought has to do with the fact that we are the only country who can't go 2 decades without a war. i think all countries get terrorist attacks, iraq gets terrorist attacks from israel, afghans get attacked from russians. Europeans get attacked. we are not the only ones, but we sure as hell profit bigtime when we do. maybe the arabs wouldn't hate us if we didn't supply israel with weapons and the green light to attack them, then we secretly arm and train the arabs, then tell israel about their setup. iran-iraq war, we support saddam and sell him weapons, then we secretly supply the iranians at the same time during the iran contra.
I think you've shown me which side of the political spectrum you are on. Yea those mean old israelis trying to live without getting their children blown to smithereens or rockets dropped on them everyday. Hogwash.

And have we made up our 500billion dollars lost in the terrorist attacks yet. You libs really go off the deep end when you let your love of socialism and hatred of capitalism show.

Yea we are really treating those afghanis bad aren't we. Helping them rid themselves of the taliban, you know govern themselves, etc...all while only hoping they can get it together so we can leave 'em alone.

kappasigma
04-06-2008, 02:48 PM
I think you've shown me which side of the political spectrum you are on. Yea those mean old israelis trying to live without getting their children blown to smithereens or rockets dropped on them everyday. Hogwash.

And have we made up our 500billion dollars lost in the terrorist attacks yet. You libs really go off the deep end when you let your love of socialism and hatred of capitalism show.

Yea we are really treating those afghanis bad aren't we. Helping them rid themselves of the taliban, you know govern themselves, etc...all while only hoping they can get it together so we can leave 'em alone.


EVER HEARD OF CNN? TALIBAN HAS MORE TROOPS NOW THAN IN 2001.

dude1394
04-06-2008, 03:05 PM
EVER HEARD OF CNN? TALIBAN HAS MORE TROOPS NOW THAN IN 2001.

LINK PLEASE! :)

All caps make me laugh.

kappasigma
04-06-2008, 03:19 PM
http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080403/NEWS/804030312/-1/NEWS

By Paul Brooks
Times Herald-Record
April 03, 2008

Afghanistan and Pakistan need more Islamic forces as well as additional European military might to calm the dangerous situation there, Rep. Maurice Hinchey said yesterday.

Hinchey, D-Hurley, spoke in a conference call from Washington, D.C., with reporters about his trip to the region last week.

He went with five other members of Congress.

"The Taliban are back in Afghanistan in significant numbers," Hinchey said. Yet some areas, such as Kabul, are stronger and more secure than any time since the Oct. 7, 2001, U.S. invasion, he said.

Conditions in parts of Pakistan are equally worrisome, Hinchey said, particularly the northwest sector that the Taliban and al-Qaida use as a sanctuary.

Hinchey said more competent Islamic forces are needed as well. But, equally important, the residents in sensitive regions need to see their lives improve to where they do not turn to radicalism, Hinchey said.

Yesterday, in Bucharest, Romania, as president Bush sat down for a summit with NATO leaders, the president expressed confidence that members of the alliance will bolster forces in Afghanistan.



there's hundreds of other articles.

the all caps was an accident. i agree with the all caps being gay.

dude1394
04-06-2008, 03:22 PM
So if I read this right, there are more taliban in some areas, obviously less in others. Okay, I'll give you that.

What's your point again? That our invasion of afghanistan created more taliban? or what?

kappasigma
04-06-2008, 03:22 PM
at least the poor afghans will have a pretty embancy with nice marble floors and beatiful landscape instead of hospitals! don't forget, afghans are not "the taliban" taliban are mix of people from surrounding regions, they speak a different language than the afghans. they've pretty much set up shop and taken over then country. people think afghans and taliban are the same.

kappasigma
04-06-2008, 03:28 PM
my point is we spent 2 trillion dollars and we can't get rid of a bunch of troops with sling shots, sandles and camels. if we pay for something, lets get something in return. capitalism. we're paying and not getting much back. 2 trillion dollars back in our economy is much better than the $600 economic rebate we're hoping works

dude1394
04-06-2008, 03:44 PM
at least the poor afghans will have a pretty embancy with nice marble floors and beatiful landscape instead of hospitals! don't forget, afghans are not "the taliban" taliban are mix of people from surrounding regions, they speak a different language than the afghans. they've pretty much set up shop and taken over then country. people think afghans and taliban are the same.

hmmm...wonder how much that freedom's worth?

dude1394
04-06-2008, 03:47 PM
my point is we spent 2 trillion dollars and we can't get rid of a bunch of troops with sling shots, sandles and camels. if we pay for something, lets get something in return. capitalism. we're paying and not getting much back. 2 trillion dollars back in our economy is much better than the $600 economic rebate we're hoping works

Hmmm...2 trillion dollars...that's a lot? Care to provide me a link on that one?

Mine says 300billion.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/11943/cost_of_the_iraq_war.html

kappasigma
04-06-2008, 03:53 PM
hmmmmmm......cost of freedom, refer to post were taliban is stronger

hmmmmmm....your sources are old, the 2 trillion number can be googled, its the project cost by 2010


hmmmmmm......thats the last thing i gotta say about this. u've proven your skills. here's a wonderful defense to anything anyone else says in the future.

freedom, democracy, terror, 9/11

Underdog
04-06-2008, 05:09 PM
hmmm...wonder how much that freedom's worth?


Freedom? What kind of Freedom???


Are you referring to the freedom for every US citizen to receive a fair trial (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20020307_chander.html)?

The freedom for people to defend themselves against a tyrannical government (http://www.aclu.org/safefree/detention/29145res20070322.html)?

Or are we talking about the good, old freedom of speech to question the government (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE) when there's reasonable suspicion of corruption?



(all links 100% Kos-free - those guys are on the opposite end of the same bullsh!t spectrum as FOX...)

bernardos70
04-06-2008, 07:21 PM
All you need to know about Bush:
http://i26.tinypic.com/20scbc2.gif

dude1394
04-06-2008, 08:03 PM
hmmmmmm......cost of freedom, refer to post were taliban is stronger

hmmmmmm....your sources are old, the 2 trillion number can be googled, its the project cost by 2010


hmmmmmm......thats the last thing i gotta say about this. u've proven your skills. here's a wonderful defense to anything anyone else says in the future.

freedom, democracy, terror, 9/11

So my sources are 2 years old, you are saying it's going to be 2trillion? Link please. And lancet links need not apply.

Freedom for 50million souls, the left says..f'em.

dude1394
04-06-2008, 08:05 PM
Freedom? What kind of Freedom???


Are you referring to the freedom for every US citizen to receive a fair trial (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20020307_chander.html)?

The freedom for people to defend themselves against a tyrannical government (http://www.aclu.org/safefree/detention/29145res20070322.html)?

Or are we talking about the good, old freedom of speech to question the government (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE) when there's reasonable suspicion of corruption?



(all links 100% Kos-free - those guys are on the opposite end of the same bullsh!t spectrum as FOX...)

Oh I get it, the US is the new soviet union. What a moron. I always find it comical how the left can look the other way when sadaam is poking out eyes, raping wives, etc. and somehow you find the US to be the culprit.

IF 1/100th of the crap the left felt was occurring in this country was actually occurring, their heads would be on a stake. You don't have to go away mad, just go away.

Underdog
04-06-2008, 08:12 PM
Oh I get it, the US is the new soviet union. What a moron. I always find it comical how the left can look the other way when sadaam is poking out eyes, raping wives, etc. and somehow you find the US to be the culprit.

IF 1/100th of the crap the left felt was occurring in this country was actually occurring, their heads would be on a stake. You don't have to go away mad, just go away.


I agree - screw the left!

Now, did you have something to say about my post, or were you just searching for some common ground between you & I? (in which you succeeded - I probably hate leftist/liberal/Democrats as much as you do...)

ribosoma
04-07-2008, 07:58 AM
hmmm...wonder how much that freedom's worth?

http://www.cheesebikini.com/art/1984.jpg

I think I get it now.... War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength. You are a great little worker bee. There is nothing wrong with deconstructing language to maintain a worldview.

dude1394
04-07-2008, 08:21 AM
http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/1984-movie-bb_a1.jpg

I think I get it now.... War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength. You are a great little worker bee. There is nothing wrong with deconstructing language to maintain a worldview.

No more like freedom is priceless and 50million souls freed is a good thing, for those souls possibly the best thing.

Underdog
04-07-2008, 08:29 AM
No more like freedom is priceless and 50million souls freed is a good thing, for those souls possibly the best thing.

death = freedom

I like it!

ribosoma
04-07-2008, 09:26 AM
No more like freedom is priceless and 50million souls freed is a good thing, for those souls possibly the best thing.

50 million souls freed from what, their bodies? War has always been about profit. That will never change. What is required to sell war is simply to rely upon the herd to buy into the propaganda, and you certainly have. History, to some, is merely what is displayed in textbooks. Who writes those textbooks? I can see by your thick layers of self-deception that killing others for profit is okay with you, even if you aren't profiting, and even if the population around the world is being culled in mass ritual sacrifice. It's all a house of cards... the fear that some have is that if they tug on one of those cards, the entire conglomeration of falsities will come tumbling down. I can understand that. I used to operate as a mirror of my conditioning, as well. I just think it might just be time that we created an alternative, as opposed to the normal routine of regurgitating falsehoods in order to shoehorn reality around our worldview.

"Hindsight shows how often yesterday's so-called truth may become today's absurdity. Real ability is to respect relative truth without damaging oneself by refusing to realize that it will be superseded. When you observe that today's controversies often reveal not relevance but the clash of the untaught with the wrongly taught, and when you can endure this knowledge without cynicism, as a lover of humankind, greater compensations will be open to you than a sense of your own importance or satisfaction in thinking about the unreliability of others."

- Idries Shah A Perfumed Scorpion

dude1394
04-07-2008, 11:48 PM
Freedom? What kind of Freedom???


Are you referring to the freedom for every US citizen to receive a fair trial (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20020307_chander.html)?

The freedom for people to defend themselves against a tyrannical government (http://www.aclu.org/safefree/detention/29145res20070322.html)?

Or are we talking about the good, old freedom of speech to question the government (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE) when there's reasonable suspicion of corruption?



(all links 100% Kos-free - those guys are on the opposite end of the same bullsh!t spectrum as FOX...)

When I read this by Thomas Sowell I thought of you.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/04/random_thoughts.html
One way to reduce illegal immigration might be to translate some of our far left publications into Spanish and give everyone in Mexico subscriptions. After they read how terrible this country is, many may want to stay away.

Flacolaco
04-07-2008, 11:59 PM
One way to reduce illegal immigration might be to translate some of our far left publications into Spanish and give everyone in Mexico subscriptions. After they read how terrible this country is, many may want to stay away.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Excellent find, Dude. It's so sad...

Underdog
04-08-2008, 12:19 AM
When I read this by Thomas Sowell I thought of you.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/04/random_thoughts.html

Once again - what does "the left" have to do with anything I'm saying??? (the Democrats vote the same way as the Republicans on 9 out of 10 issues - the majority changes hands, but the results are always the same...)


You just admitted:

-You're comfortable with our government holding US citizens prisoner without allowing them their Constitutional Right to Due Process...

-You're comfortable with our government suspending our Constitutional Right to Habeas Corpus, thus stripping us of our means to defend ourselves from Martial Law (the same tactic the Red Coats used before we sent them packing back to foggy London...)

-You're comfortable with our government using excessive force to suppress our Constitutional Right to Free Speech...


You seem just as content to piss on the Constitution of the United States as our president (http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7779.shtml) does - in America, we call that "tyranny"... How quickly we forget how Adolf Hitler suspended the German Constitution (http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp) to strip the German people of their rights shortly before he seized control of their government... Learn from history - don't make the same mistakes as the past...

dude1394
04-08-2008, 07:08 AM
Once again - what does "the left" have to do with anything I'm saying??? (the Democrats vote the same way as the Republicans on 9 out of 10 issues - the majority changes hands, but the results are always the same...)


You just admitted:

-You're comfortable with our government holding US citizens prisoner without allowing them their Constitutional Right to Due Process...

-You're comfortable with our government suspending our Constitutional Right to Habeas Corpus, thus stripping us of our means to defend ourselves from Martial Law (the same tactic the Red Coats used before we sent them packing back to foggy London...)

-You're comfortable with our government using excessive force to suppress our Constitutional Right to Free Speech...


You seem just as content to piss on the Constitution of the United States as our president (http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7779.shtml) does - in America, we call that "tyranny"... How quickly we forget how Adolf Hitler suspended the German Constitution (http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp) to strip the German people of their rights shortly before he seized control of their government... Learn from history - don't make the same mistakes as the past...

You just don't see what a bunch of raving you are doing do you? Yup, we're nazi germany allright, we're the soviet gulags, etc.,etc.etc. You talk about not liking the left while you rant just like the left.

To be honest, your rantings aren't really worth the effort to me to review your links as I expect I know what I'll find. So I'll look at the first one. You state that it talks about freedom for every US citizen but nowhere in your link is even an imprisoned US citizen being discussed. These are all enemy combatants in gitmo. Now you may not agree with the way we are prosecuting these guys in gitmo but I have no problem with it whatsoever.

This complete link is talking about how other countries might treat our citizens so we should make nice-nice to the enemy-combatants we've captured, conveniently neglecting a very important part....that those "citzens" would have been non-uniformed enemy combatants that had been captured, not some dang tourist. I find it ludicrous how the left (and you) somehow think that dealing with Al Queda is the same as dealing with any other nation-state.

The author says that all of this would be fine and good if it weren't in gitmo but were in say bahrain. I guess that's a valid legal opinion but it also seems ridiculous imo.

So this link looks to me to be nothing more than a legal brief, not talking about US citizens but enemy-combatants and proposing that we bring all of these guys into our civil-courts instead of military tribunals where they belong. That would be great, they'd sit around filing briefts ad-infinitum with that sob Ramsey Clark helping them.

Underdog
04-08-2008, 07:49 AM
You just don't see what a bunch of raving you are doing do you? Yup, we're nazi germany allright, we're the soviet gulags, etc.,etc.etc. You talk about not liking the left while you rant just like the left.


So you defend the government stripping us of our Constitutional Rights?

About the only thing you've established in this debate is that I'm a "leftist" while you've clearly ignored every tangible infringement of our rights that this administration has imposed on the people of this great land... I didn't know that upholding the Constitution of the United States of America was a leftist strategy - I thought it something that all Americans were bound to...

dude1394
04-08-2008, 08:14 AM
So you defend the government stripping us of our Constitutional Rights?

About the only thing you've established in this debate is that I'm a "leftist" while you've clearly ignored every tangible infringement of our rights that this administration has imposed on the people of this great land... I didn't know that upholding the Constitution of the United States of America was a leftist strategy - I thought it something that all Americans were bound to...

Show me in that link where the guvment is stripping any US citizen of their rights.

kappasigma
04-08-2008, 08:30 AM
i'm actually pretty conservative, but i only agree on war for just causes. wasn't the conqueroring of iraq about weapons of mass destruction? now its about freedom? what about all of the other countries that need freedom too? Like all of the war torn baltic and african nations?

if all of you info and thoughts comes from news on tv and the jewish owned media, then "it's working!!!! hahahahaha"

Underdog
04-08-2008, 09:15 AM
Show me in that link where the guvment is stripping any US citizen of their rights.

Sorry, but I don't have the time (or desire) to hyperlink every violation of our Constitution to someone who doesn't seem to care in the first place - I'm sick of banging my head against a wall with you... Just declare your victory in this debate ("mission accomplished!") & continue to wallow in your ignorance...

I have Mavs talk to get back to (which happens to be a subject where I highly respect your opinion)... I'll see you in the General Mavs Discussion, where you & I tend to agree with each other more often than not...



But if you'd like to do your own homework:

1st Amendment - Freedom of Speech
4th Amendment - Search and Seizure
5th Amendment - Trial and Punishment
6th Amendment - Right to Speedy Trial
9th Amendment - Trial by Jury
11th Amendment - Judicial Limits
12th Amendment - Choosing the President
14th Amendment - Citizenship Rights

Article I, Section 9 - Limits on Congress (Habeas Corpus)
Article II, Section 2 - Civilian Power over Military
Article II, Section 4 - Disqualification (Impeachment)
Article III, Section 3 - Treason

dude1394
04-08-2008, 09:40 AM
Show me in that link where the guvment is stripping any US citizen of their rights.

No show me in the link you've already provided. you can't because it doesn't. If you are going to use a link to make a point, at least make sure the link addresses the point.

Janett_Reno
04-08-2008, 12:32 PM
Ending an illegal, unnecessary war against the citizens of Iraq = dishonoring soldiers???


My buddy in Iraq would disagree... He thinks people who blindly support this administration are the real ones dishonoring the troops by backing a war that many of our soldiers don't even believe in anymore - THEIR lives are the ones being put at risk for no good reason while OSAMA BIN LADEN IS ALIVE & WELL somewhere in the world (we're not even looking for that guy anymore!)... He says the only reason troops over there support the war is because they're in the middle of it - they HAVE to believe in it, otherwise they start losing limbs and lives...


He also says that out of the dozens of humans he's killed, very few (if any) were al Qaeda - most of the people he's engaged in combat have been "freedom fighters" (contrary to what our media reports) who simply want America out of their country... Imagine how you'd feel if every illegal immigrant in America had machine guns - would you just sit around and let them do whatever the hell they wanted to or would you blast them back to Mexico???

And mind you, we're not talking about some peace-nick here; my buddy is a killer (his word) for the US Army and LOVES what he does - when the Army needs folks dead, his unit is the first into combat... He loves America and our freedoms & would gladly die so you can sit safely behind your computer and suggest that his life would be be better spent terrorizing (his word) Iraqis than going after the people who had ANYTHING to do with 9/11 (our OWN government proved there was no connection between Iraq & al Qaeda until AFTER we invaded that country...)


I don't understand how you can equate "questioning tyranny" with "hating America" - if anything, pulling out of a war that should never have started in the first place is GOOD for this country... The war in Iraq isn't about fighting some abstract term such as "terrorism" (70% of al Qaeda operatives are in INDONESIA) - this war is about creating instability in the Middle East so Bush's private interests can suck up all the oil while the American people foot the bill (with OUR taxes and OUR lives...)

There is no exit strategy because the purpose of this war is to keep fighting the war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four) - that is NOT what this country is about (and take your Nazi America-hating ass elsewhere if you think otherwise!)


Thanks for one of the best honest post on this board ever. Karl Rove, Fox News spin and tell the followers and cheerleaders what to say and do. We all know one in here and they are not told to answer anything but ask a question with your question. If you are unsure, they are told to say, if you do not support war, you are unamerican or you do not support the troops. Same thing as you are not for morals, faith and values, fishing and hunting.

The objective was never Iraq but Iran. Cheney and Bush want Iran and to go in. They have made such a blunder of Iraq and the American public knows what is going on and the troops are not staying quiet. They are speaking up. Even some of the Haliburton, Brown Root, Boots and Coots, drivers are very upset at things going on. Ask your buddy if he thinks it is right and if he likes to be told and his fellow soldiers to go out day and night guarding Haliburton trucks and the others i have mentioned? It is many programs on nightline, pbs and others showing documentaries of things going on that both sides are mad at and do not agree with. They know so many each night when they go out, and up the main road will be bombed. Go look who all is involved bombing them and at Iraqi checkpoints during the day and some of the same people that is "suppose" to be helping us.

They do not like running around the country doing things they are not suppose to be doing but being told to do. On the flip side, some Haliburton and the others i mentioned above are pissed because they are getting caught in ambushes, drug out of trucks, killed, limbs blowed off, and alot of them are pissed at the gov and troops because some say, they are not guarding us and letting it happen and we are an easy target and easy prey but they tell them they can make an easy quick cool 100 grand a year to go over there and drive a truck around.

All this is comming to a head. At first the tactic of saying if you do not speak good of war, then you are against the troops. The same thing as saying if you are not a Republican, then you have no faith or morals. Only W, Cheney and Rove have these things and you should follow them along with Rumsfield. The troops are speaking up and it is on tv alot of nights, the employes of some of these private no bid contract companies are speaking up. They have said wait a min, a 100 grand might not be worth my life and what i am seeing and doing plus it is comming to a head.

How far does all this go back to in the end? It will and is comming to the point. The troops did the job of going in and getting done what they was suppose to. Now they have them in stall mode, plus asking them to do things they shouldn't have to be made to do, when they should be home. They have blundered Iraq, Bush and Cheney with Rumsfield that the American public won't let them go in Iran now and this was what they wanted.

Please ask your friend, i want to know what he and the troops think. Who will end up with Iraq if we stay and who will end up with Iraq if we get out? The weapons of mass destruction and al queda in Iraq before we went in is and was a sham. Not true. Atleast they have found no wmd's yet. Why did Cheney want to take out Iraq and let Al Queda move in and fanatics? I was told by one in here because it would be a battle ground to face the terrorist.

I understand they wanted to free oil in Iraq and alot of this was about oil. We can't tell or make people be like us and do what we want with their resources. Would you like it to say you can't ever watch a Mavs game but you will be forced to watch China volleyball forever? Why aren't we after the guys from 9/11 and Bin Laden?

Janett_Reno
04-08-2008, 12:40 PM
I like how you ignored 100% of my post except for the last line - it shows you don't want to have an open-minded discussion about the war so much as you want to list FOXNews' latest talking points... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

And please don't lump me in with other people you're debating because I could give a shit less about "the left" - I don't identify myself as one of those people, so don't pretend like you know my politics, ideas, or opinions just because you know theirs...

Again you are one of the smartest in here and again calling out what is being done. These two post have been two of the best on this board. He tried to answer you with Japan questions, Korea and Fox News. You was brillant enough to see this.

Again you are smart enough to know next he was going to call you a Democrat, no faith, no values, no morals.

No matter where you stand eople like Obama is already calling McCain, this adm out on making them answer questions and not giving Fox News answers. Thi is why McCain can't win. They are still in this same stradegy, going off in wonder land trying to answer things with questions, about Japan, Korea, faith, values, or you do not love the troops.

If you notice he did not answer anything you wrote about nor tackled any of it. I am surprised he didn't say all this has happened because Monica was with Bill Clinton.

Janett_Reno
04-08-2008, 12:50 PM
I think you've shown me which side of the political spectrum you are on. Yea those mean old israelis trying to live without getting their children blown to smithereens or rockets dropped on them everyday. Hogwash.

And have we made up our 500billion dollars lost in the terrorist attacks yet. You libs really go off the deep end when you let your love of socialism and hatred of capitalism show.

Yea we are really treating those afghanis bad aren't we. Helping them rid themselves of the taliban, you know govern themselves, etc...all while only hoping they can get it together so we can leave 'em alone.

Dude your playhouse is torn down. You attack people and some of these people are Republicans and Independents dude. Dude it is very sad they you are willing to throw your country away and you are the one with no morals because you will not speak the truth, stand up for right but all you desire in life is to make the usa and the world a Republican. No matter what it does to our country as Greenspan said, all you desire is to make it a Republcan thing and who cares what it tears down or how bad and wrong it is.

Why not stand with our troops and help the people in need and let them have a voice? To do right and dude the troops i feel know more than any of us what is right and wrong and what is going on. Why people are bring up Haliburton and others dude like Blackwater is because these where Cheney/Bush best friends and giving no bid contracts. Tax payers money going to people like this and the troops are having to run up and down the road, putting themself in danger guarding them as they make billions. Tell the truth dude and stop with the Fox News spin. Also dude, the troops don't give a rats butt about a Republican/Democrat as they are being bombed. They want to do right and they want the people in power to treat them fair and lead them doing the right things. Not a Republican thing or a Democrat thing. This is not a game as you make it out to be.

ribosoma
04-08-2008, 01:14 PM
No show me in the link you've already provided. you can't because it doesn't. If you are going to use a link to make a point, at least make sure the link addresses the point.

TRANSLATION: "Unless you feed me with information that I will refuse to assimilate into my consciousness, I will refuse to assimilate it into my consciousness..."

Don't let reason and logic stop you, duder. Regular people don't have flashy slogans to hypnotize you and satiate your desire to be mind controlled.

"And it seems to me perfectly in the cards that there will be within the next generation or so a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing... a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda, brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods."

- Aldous Huxley, 1959

Janett_Reno
04-08-2008, 01:24 PM
Fear and fighting in Iraq's Sadr City

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080408/wl_mideast_afp/iraqunrestsadrcity_080408165832

"We're scared," admitted Abu Muamel as the sudden blast of a mortar round fightened the baby in his arms to tears and set US and Iraqi armoured vehicles racing through Sadr City's smoke-choked streets.

"It's too dangerous to stay here," Abu Muamel added as he and his family of eight on Tuesday fled the sprawling district in eastern Baghdad that is the theatre of raging battles between Mahdi Army militiamen and security forces.

"A mortar landed in our street, killing a boy. I'm taking my family out of here. We're going to stay with relatives in Mansur," the 42-year-old artisan said, referring to a relatively safe part of western Baghdad.

As he spoke another two mortar rounds slammed into a nearby neighbourhood. The explosions drowned out the whine of US Stryker armoured troop carriers and the relentless clatter of Apache helicopters, which have been blasting away at mortar and rocket teams with Hellfire missiles for the past three days.

"That's Jaish al-Mahdi (Mahdi Army) trying to hit the Americans," explained an Iraqi soldier manning a checkpoint at the edge of Sadr City.

"They don't target us, only the Americans," he added as one of Abu Muamel's small daughters began coughing from the acrid smoke in the air.

"We're going now," said the father, herding his children, wife and sisters-in-law through the checkpoint, one small boy tightly clutching his hand, a slightly older girl toddling alongside him carrying a bag crammed with clothes and cuddly toys.

Screaming fire engines sped by, startling supermarket owner Abu Said as he struggled with two young sons to push a large wooden cart crammed with foodstuffs towards his store, three kilometres (one and a half miles) away.

The violence, a vehicle curfew in Sadr City and the destruction in the fighting of the vast Jamila food market have added layers of extra hardship to Abu Said's life.

"People want food so I have to go every day to Al-Shorja market (in central Baghdad) for supplies. Because we can't use vehicles, I have to use this push cart," said Abu Said, dressed in long flowing robes and perspiring from the exertion.

"It takes me three hours to fetch my stocks instead of just half an hour as it did when I used to go to Jamila," he said.

Jumar Kadhum and his wife joined the throngs of people heading through the streets with bags of food they had brought from a market outside Sadr City, taking advantage of an earlier lull in the fighting.

"There are no supplies left inside Sadr City," said Kadhum, balding and in his forties. "We have left our children at home. We all stay in one room because we are so frightened. The children do not go out at all. We have just left quickly to get some supplies. Mortars have been falling all around us. We have seen bodies in the streets."

Other residents said they were stocking up in case the fighting gets worse and they become trapped for days.

"We are all frightened. There is so much gunfire and mortars," said Umm Rusul, carrying supplies of rice, tinned food and bottles of cooking oil, while her young daughter struggled under a large bag of tea.

"There are 17 of us living in the house," she said. "We hear explosions all the time. My children have learnt to tell the difference between a mortar, a rocket, a rocket-propelled grenade, an IED (roadside bomb) and a JDAM (guided bomb).

"It is very dangerous," she added, as three pickup trucks sped by, packed with heavily armed men wearing the uniforms of Iraqi special forces.

"Those were Americans," said an Iraqi soldier wearing wrap-around sunglasses despite the pall cast by the numerous fires set during the fighting.

"The Americans know that the Mahdi Army doesn't target the Iraqi security forces so now they are dressing like Iraqis," added the soldier, expressing a belief, whether true or not, that now seems to be taken as gospel on the streets of the impoverished township of around two million people.

A motor mechanic with a round belly and oil-stained clothes wished the fighting would end.

"I have not been able to work for three days. This is the first time I've left my home since Saturday. My family needs food. We just want peace."

--------------------------------------------------------------

This will make you happy dude and might keep us there the next 100 years like you and McCain desire.

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/US_planning_open_ended_military_com_04072008.html

US planning open-ended military commitment in Iraq: report

A draft agreement between the United States and Iraq shows that the two countries are including a provision for an open-ended American military commitment to the war-torn country, The Guardian reported Tuesday.

Citing a copy of the draft strategic framework agreement dated March 7 that it obtained, the newspaper said that the document is designed to replace the current United Nations mandate, which expires at the end of the year.

According to The Guardian, the agreement allows the United States to "conduct military operations in Iraq and to detain individuals when necessary for imperative reasons of security" without including a time limit.

It also does not put any limits on the number of American forces allowed in Iraq, the weapons they can use, the legal status of US troops in Iraq or the powers they hold over Iraqi citizens.

The document states it is "in the mutual interest of the United States and Iraq that Iraq maintain its sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence and that external threats to Iraq be deterred."

"Accordingly, the US and Iraq are to consult immediately whenever the territorial integrity or political independence of Iraq is threatened."

It also includes the agreement that the "US does not seek to use Iraq territory as a platform for offensive operations against other states."

News of the document comes just hours before General David Petraeus, the top US commander in Iraq, and US ambassador to Baghdad Ryan Crocker testify on the progress in the war before two Senate committees.

Rival Democratic presidential candidates Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have promised to start pulling American forces out of Iraq, plans that have drawn criticism from the Republican candidate John McCain.

Dirkadirkastan
04-08-2008, 04:50 PM
http://www.cheesebikini.com/art/1984.jpg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tbBG6mAi1wo

ribosoma
04-08-2008, 05:47 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tbBG6mAi1wo

Thanks for the link. This is where all that "data" has been gathered since the '80's:

http://www.greaterthings.com/Word-Number/Organizations/Echelon/images/echelon.jpg

It's called Echelon... Google it ;)