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kg_veteran
08-08-2005, 11:13 AM
Not sure if this fits best here or in the Trade Forum, but here's a Celtics fan perspective on whether Paul Pierce will/should be traded:


Monday, August 08, 2005
Last Days?

http://rantnraveinc.com/celticsblog/images/paulshame.jpg

Like it or not, the odds on Paul Pierce finishing his career as a Boston Celtic are getting longer by the day. Just look at the writing on the wall.

You can go back as far as the day Ainge took over. He was critical of Walker and Pierce as an announcer, so people could sense that something was up. Walker was dealt, Pierce was not. Was that a vote of confidence or a 2 year try out? Maybe he hasn't passed the test and Danny is ready to move on.

More signs are the constant rumors that have been circulating since last year's trading deadline. Since Ainge has made it known that nobody is untouchable, Pierce has had to see his name be linked to deals involving Ray Allen (deadline), the 3rd pick in the draft (the Portland rumor), and now Bonzi Wells (of all people). I'm sure there are more that I'm forgetting, but those are the big ones that pop into my head. If these are the ones we know about; just how many times do you think Paul has been discussed that we don't know about?

Given the youthful direction the team is taking, it might not even make sense to keep Paul around for too long. If he was a lunchpail worker who never griped and simply went about his business, he might be the perfect guy to hold the fort and bridge the gap until the Jefferson/Green era took full effect. Instead, since he is an emotional, proud, and somewhat needy star, he's not too keen on accepting a rebuilding year or two.

As a Paul Pierce fan, I hate all of this. I love the fact that he can score with anyone in the league. I really love that he does it by driving the lane and getting to the line - thus getting free points and putting the other team at a disadvantage. I love that he rebounds as well as any guard/forward in the league. I love that he is an exceptional passer. All these things make him very valuable to this team (and very attractive to other teams).

But even as a fan of his work, I understand and admit that he's got his share of issues. Regardless of what his friend Antoine might say, he'll never be a true team leader. He can be "a" leader, but not "the" leader. He needs what some call an alpha dog to go alongside. Call it the Scottie Pippen syndrome. He is also too moody for his own good. It effects his game when he's complaining to refs, defying his coach, and generally sulking when things don't go his way. I've never heard of him being a bad treammate, but indirectly these things can't help the team dynamic. The painful way the playoffs ended (Pierce's ejection, the 7th game collapse) served as an illustration for all that is wrong with Paul. Basically it was the chance for all of Pierce's critics to say, "See! This is what I'm talking about!"

So he has his strengths and weaknesses. He's a very valuable player. I guess it is just a question of "how valuable?" When the value that is offered in trade reaches a point that is higher than where Danny values him for this team, then he will have played his last game as a Celtic. That could happen this offseason, this season, or perhaps a long time from now. However, signs continue to point to a Celtics future without number 34 in the starting lineup.

link (http://www.celticsblog.com/)

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 11:22 AM
Oh sweet Jesus, I hope this actually happens. I've never hoped to get someone so bad before...


He can be "a" leader, but not "the" leader. He needs what some call an alpha dog to go alongside. Call it the Scottie Pippen syndrome.

This guy's right. Pierce needs to be Pippen to someone else's Jordan. Incidently, Dirk needs someone to be Pippen to his Jordan...

Terry
Pierce
Howard
Nowitzki
Damp

That lineup would be unstoppable. That lineup could score and (gasp) defend with anyone in the leauge. The "soft" days are over!

jthig32
08-08-2005, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by: ThespiralgoesonThis guy's right. Pierce needs to be Pippen to someone else's Jordan. Incidently, Dirk needs someone to be Pippen to his Jordan...

While I'm all for getting Pierce, I'm not so sure Dirk isn't a Pippen himself.....

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by: jthig32

Originally posted by: ThespiralgoesonThis guy's right. Pierce needs to be Pippen to someone else's Jordan. Incidently, Dirk needs someone to be Pippen to his Jordan...

While I'm all for getting Pierce, I'm not so sure Dirk isn't a Pippen himself.....

That's utterly ridiculous. Dirk is a top 5 talent. I'm practically offended by that. Who the hell is there in the NBA that makes Dirk look like a "Pippen?" Duncan? Lebron? Give me a break! Dirk is a franchise player.

dirno2000
08-08-2005, 12:01 PM
Pippen was a top 5 talent when Jordan retired. In 93-94 he averaged 22,9 and 6 and was 3rd in MVP voting.

I'm not saying Dirk is Pippen...time will tell but don't underrate Pippen as a stand alone player.

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by: dirno2000
Pippen was a top 5 talent when Jordan retired. In 93-94 he averaged 22,9 and 6 and was 3rd in MVP voting.

I'm not saying Dirk is Pippen...time will tell but don't underrate Pippen as a stand alone player.

Maybe so. My point is, who is there that makes Dirk look like sidekick material?

chumdawg
08-08-2005, 12:06 PM
Jason Terry?

dirno2000
08-08-2005, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by: Thespiralgoeson

Originally posted by: dirno2000
Pippen was a top 5 talent when Jordan retired. In 93-94 he averaged 22,9 and 6 and was 3rd in MVP voting.

I'm not saying Dirk is Pippen...time will tell but don't underrate Pippen as a stand alone player.

Maybe so. My point is, who is there that makes Dirk look like sidekick material?Jordan would...

Sidekick sounds bad but we're talking about the greatest player in history. I think the question of weather Dirk is Jordan or Pippen is still a legitimate one but it's not a slap in the fact to be Pippen. This is probably a thread of it's own.

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 12:17 PM
Dirno, I agree that Jordan in his prime would be Batman to Dirk's Robin. My point is, there's nobody in the NBA so much better than Dirk that would make him a second option. Basically, there's nobody in the NBA that dominates anywhere near to the extent that Jordan did. LeBron might someday, but we don't know that. Even if there was someone at that level, could we get him here, and still keep Dirk as the 2nd option?

sike
08-08-2005, 12:48 PM
Dirk is no second fiddle. Pippen was never the offensive player that would take over games...with or without Jordan...a great overall player? No Doubt. Superstar? Eh.

sike
08-08-2005, 12:51 PM
the truth in Dallas?? Never happen.

EricaLubarsky
08-08-2005, 12:53 PM
If Boston wants him out of there, a KVH/Devin Harris for Blount and Pierce works. Then again they have a ton of young points, so I'm not exactly sure what they would want or even if they would want to clear the money up 2 years earlier with no real talent gain. Somehow I think it will take a lot more to acquire Pierce.

Something like KVH, Terry, Tariq and DJ for LaFrentz and Pierce. Don't think they want Damp, Daniels, or even Finley, but they might want Howard and that would make me really think about it.

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 01:10 PM
That's what concerns me. If Boston does shop him, we need to do everything in our power to get him, especially considering that the west is getting better still. I hope to god we can make this deal happen without giving up howard, but if Boston won't budge without him, I suppose I would have to do it. I think a Devin/KVH/DJ for Pierce/Blount or Raef would be appealing to them. If they still wouldn't budge, I think we could throw in stack as well. Two young taletns, two expirers, and we take one of their bad contracts... That's about a sweet a deal I think they could get for Pierce.

kg_veteran
08-08-2005, 01:45 PM
There are a number of combinations that work to get Pierce, if Boston is inclined to trade him. Most of them almost certainly involve Devin Harris. I'm a huge Harris fan, but that's a price I'm willing to pay, if necessary.

One big concern for Mavs fans should be Memphis. If Boston is inclined to deal Pierce, Memphis can put together some pretty good packages to offer as well.

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by: kg_veteran
One big concern for Mavs fans should be Memphis. If Boston is inclined to deal Pierce, Memphis can put together some pretty good packages to offer as well.

That worries me as well. Does Memphis have any big expirers?

jthig32
08-08-2005, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by: Thespiralgoeson
Dirno, I agree that Jordan in his prime would be Batman to Dirk's Robin. My point is, there's nobody in the NBA so much better than Dirk that would make him a second option. Basically, there's nobody in the NBA that dominates anywhere near to the extent that Jordan did. LeBron might someday, but we don't know that. Even if there was someone at that level, could we get him here, and still keep Dirk as the 2nd option?

Well, not to hijack the thread again, but I think it's certainly debateably whether Dirk is enough of an Alpha-Male to be the leader of a team that wins the title.

It's not always about talent and ability, it's also about drive and determination and intangibles.

I'm not saying there's necessarily anyone in particular that would make Dirk a sidekick in every sense of the word, but I'd be lying if I said I have complete faith in Dirk's ability to be the unquestioned leader of this team.

Time will tell though. I just think it's way to early to be claiming Dirk is enough of a superstar to lead a team to the title, and that Dirk is a top 5 talent.

kg_veteran
08-08-2005, 02:51 PM
That worries me as well. Does Memphis have any big expirers?

Wright (7.7m), Battier (4.9m).


I just think it's way to early to be claiming Dirk is enough of a superstar to lead a team to the title, and that Dirk is a top 5 talent.

I think you can make a pretty good argument that Dirk's a top 5 talent since he made First Team All-NBA, but the other part is the ultimate question that most Mavs fans wonder about?

Is Dirk good enough to lead the team to the title?

The thing is, I think if you have a chance to get a guy who could be his Pippen/Robin (pick your analogy), you have to grab him and then see what happens. There aren't many players the Mavs would trade Dirk for, so we're pretty much stuck with building around him as best we can and hoping for the best.

dalmations202
08-08-2005, 02:56 PM
Battier (4.9m)

??

Realgm has him on his BYC as he signed a new 5 year contract last year.

dirno2000
08-08-2005, 03:07 PM
I think Real GM is correct...Hoopshype is not very reliable right now.

Memphis and Boston have apparently already discussed a Pierce deal when Memphis was trying to move Bonzi.

kg_veteran
08-08-2005, 03:09 PM
Nice catch. I have to quit relying on Hoopsworld. It's filled with inaccuracies.

Patricia has it as a 6 year deal running through 2011.

Still, Memphis has the pieces to put together a really nice deal with Boston.

V2M
08-08-2005, 03:38 PM
Excellent writeup on PP and thanks for reposting it KG.

I agree Mavs should work very hard to land PP in Dallas. But I hope the package we send out doesn't include Harris, Terry, Josh, DJ or PPod. They're the future if you ask me and except for Josh & Terry the other 3's trade value ain't high enough now to get similar value back.

I think there's enough value in the expiring contracts of KVH, Stack & TAW and some young talent in Daniels. Throw in a future pick or two and if that's not enough take back a lousy contract or two back... I don't care! Feel free to throw in $3M if you must... Cuban's got plenty more to play with. i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif

I didn't talk about Dirk, Fin and Damp cuz Dirk's untouchable from our POV (for obvious reasons!) and Fin and Damp may be untouchables from their POV (primarily due to the their contracts).

alby
08-08-2005, 03:46 PM
Even the greatest player in NBA history, Jordan, couldn't lead the Bulls to the promised land by himself. He needed help, and so does Dirk. Dirk and Pierce would allow JET to shoot 60%, Josh Howard to go even more unnoticed while still producing, and alleviate some pressure off Damp because he doesn't have to overcompensate for Finley's lack of rebounding/defense.

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by: V2M< But I hope the package we send out doesn't include Harris, Terry, Josh, DJ or PPod.

We'd all love to keep Harris, but landing Pierce would be well worth losing him.

SeriousSummer
08-08-2005, 05:15 PM
Boston Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Raef LaFrentz
6-11 C from Kansas
11.1 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 1.2 apg in 27.4 minutes
Mark Blount
7-0 C from Pittsburgh
9.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.6 apg in 26.0 minutes
Marcus Banks
6-2 PG from UNLV
4.6 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 1.9 apg in 14.1 minutes
Paul Pierce
6-6 SF from Kansas
21.6 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 4.2 apg in 36.1 minutes
Incoming
Keith Van Horn
6-10 SF from Utah
12.2 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.2 apg in 23.6 minutes
Tariq Abdul-Wahad
6-6 from San Jose State
No games yet played in 2004/05
Devin Harris
6-3 PG from Wisconsin
5.7 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 2.2 apg in 15.4 minutes
Josh Howard
6-7 SF from Wake Forrest
12.6 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 1.4 apg in 32.2 minutes
Change in team outlook: -16.2 ppg, -7.7 rpg, and -4.1 apg.


Dallas Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Keith Van Horn
6-10 SF from Utah
12.2 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.2 apg in 23.6 minutes
Tariq Abdul-Wahad
6-6 from San Jose State
No games yet played in 2004/05
Devin Harris
6-3 PG from Wisconsin
5.7 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 2.2 apg in 15.4 minutes
Josh Howard
6-7 SF from Wake Forrest
12.6 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 1.4 apg in 32.2 minutes
Incoming
Raef LaFrentz
6-11 C from Kansas
11.1 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 1.2 apg in 27.4 minutes
Mark Blount
7-0 C from Pittsburgh
9.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.6 apg in 26.0 minutes
Marcus Banks
6-2 PG from UNLV
4.6 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 1.9 apg in 14.1 minutes
Paul Pierce
6-6 SF from Kansas
21.6 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 4.2 apg in 36.1 minutes
Change in team outlook: +16.2 ppg, +7.7 rpg, and +4.1 apg.



Successful Scenario
Due to Boston and Dallas being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Boston and Dallas had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Dallas:

Damp/Blount/DJ
Dirk/Raef/Powell
Pierce/Stackhouse
Daniels/Christie
Terry/Banks

Powell, Marshall, Pavel

Thin at guard, but an awfully nice team.

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 05:36 PM
The buzz around here about Pierce is incredible, considering nothing about the Mavs actively going after him has been reported in the media. Not sure if that's good or bad. Seeing as how the media usually screws things up, I'm slightly leaning towards good. Seriously though, this seems unusual. Maybe if we all clear our minds and focus our thoughts on the Mavs picking up Pierce, we can make it come true... Or maybe if we all pray for it together... I'll write a letter to Santa Clause.

LRB
08-08-2005, 05:46 PM
I'd rather keep what we have than give up KVH, Harris, AND howard to get Pierce. I could see KVH and Harris OR Howard for Pierce. I would do KVH, Harris, Marquis for Pierce + filler.

dude1394
08-08-2005, 07:11 PM
I would absolutely love to see pierce here. I also think he would fit in perfectly with the way avery want's his players to drive.

Wouldn't it be a hoot that the two guys who have always sort of shadowed each other from the draft dirk/pierce winding up on the same team.

dude1394
08-08-2005, 07:11 PM
But josh aint' going anywhere.

Hitman
08-08-2005, 08:50 PM
I am torn with Paul Pierce. I think he is an exceptional talent, but I don't know if he puts the Mavs over the top. And I don't know how this author says that he is a great passer...he is not.

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by: Hitman
I am torn with Paul Pierce. I think he is an exceptional talent, but I don't know if he puts the Mavs over the top. And I don't know how this author says that he is a great passer...he is not.

4.2 apg. He ain't Jason Kidd, but he's also not a point guard. He's well above average for his position.

MavKikiNYC
08-08-2005, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by: jthig32

Originally posted by: ThespiralgoesonThis guy's right. Pierce needs to be Pippen to someone else's Jordan. Incidently, Dirk needs someone to be Pippen to his Jordan...

While I'm all for getting Pierce, I'm not so sure Dirk isn't a Pippen himself.....

This is a legitimate point. As a younger player at least, Dirk seemed much more comfortable deferring to Nash and Finley, letting them press the action. Still not sure we've seem him emerge fully as the team leader or initiator.

Pierce would be a potentially interesting acquisition. Would want to put Dirk, Howard, Dampier, and Harris off-limits; anyone else would be fair game.

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
Pierce would be a potentially interesting acquisition. Would want to put Dirk, Howard, Dampier, and Harris off-limits; anyone else would be fair game.

I'd feel much better about losing Harris than I would Terry.

MavKikiNYC
08-08-2005, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by: Thespiralgoeson

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
Pierce would be a potentially interesting acquisition. Would want to put Dirk, Howard, Dampier, and Harris off-limits; anyone else would be fair game.

I'd feel much better about losing Harris than I would Terry.

Terry is stop-gap; Harris is the future, I hope.

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC

Originally posted by: Thespiralgoeson

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
Pierce would be a potentially interesting acquisition. Would want to put Dirk, Howard, Dampier, and Harris off-limits; anyone else would be fair game.

I'd feel much better about losing Harris than I would Terry.

Terry is stop-gap; Harris is the future, I hope.

We all hope. But we don't know.

MavKikiNYC
08-08-2005, 09:38 PM
We hope.

I see Terry's ceiling already. On the basis of potential, Harris looks like a better prospect.

Thespiralgoeson
08-08-2005, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
We hope.

I see Terry's ceiling already. On the basis of potential, Harris looks like a better prospect.

Of course Harris is a better prospect. But the truth is, we have no idea how good he's going to be. Terry is at least serviceable at point. I love Harris too, if we're trading for Pierce, neither of them are off limits.