PDA

View Full Version : Finely on Fire playing for the Spurs


FishForLunch
11-01-2005, 10:40 PM
I am sure we will miss finely sorely this year

Bayliss
11-01-2005, 10:42 PM
He's having a very nice game.

Windmill360
11-01-2005, 10:43 PM
He's not guarding anyone though. He's not succeeding anyway.

Drbio
11-01-2005, 10:45 PM
Finley has been a swinging gate at the defensive end, but man oh man is he playing some outstanding offensive basketball.

At 4:52 left in the game he dropped his jock for Carmelo. Anthony made him look pretty old there. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif

grndmstr_c
11-01-2005, 10:47 PM
Only started watching midway through the third quarter, but he's looked good to me. I simply can't help but root for the guy. Been a bonafide fan of his for too long. Waiting to see how things work out with Doug, Quis, and the Mavs' big frontcourt (and Stack's knee, I suppose) before I decide whether we miss him, though.

Bayliss
11-01-2005, 10:50 PM
Finley is going to probably have quite a few nights like these. But sprinkled between those good shooting nights, he'll have stat lines of

2-8 for 6 points, 2 rebounds, 2 turnovers....

And by the end of the year he'll be averaging somewhere between 12-15 points a game.

FilthyFinMavs
11-01-2005, 10:52 PM
Yea Carmelo has been raping him but offensively Fin has looked great. He's moving well on both ends of the court. Amazing that Finely can play at the end of the 4th quarter on the SPURS but can't for the Mavs last season lol. Oh well. Good game by both teams. Denver sort of just gave it up at the end. Don't think they expected Finley to kill them that late. Fin looked hesitant for the most part of the game. Nick and Horry are just throwing up anything. Might as well throw it up there yourself Fin. 5/6 in the 4th quarter and 16 points off the bench. Let's keep doing that all year and he might be a 6th man candidate. Spurs team looks real good. REAL GOOD. I didn't even seen Beno Udrich tonight.

grndmstr_c
11-01-2005, 11:16 PM
By my count the Spurs outscored the Nuggets by 24 points in Fin's on-court time.

MavsFanFinley
11-01-2005, 11:27 PM
Fin actually played good defense until the 4th quarter when Melo was abusing him. Bowen was even worse and Pop went with Finley early and he delivered on that end.

The 4th quarter had its highs and lows. He couldn't keep with Melo then but he was putting on his own show offensively.

Who knows if Dallas will miss him but he's found his place in San Antonio. The most impressive thing was his boxing out under the rim when he wasn't grabbing rebounds.

His shooting will come and go. But he was boxing out, grabbing rebounds, playing defense, and moving without the ball before his 4th quarter show. Pop won't let him get away with that when his shooting isn't there. And I think Finley can do those other things with his minutes around 20-25.

FilthyFinMavs
11-02-2005, 12:17 AM
I thought the most impressive thing was Fin playing at the end of the 4th quarter with Bowen on the bench. Does Pop already have that much confidence in Fin's game that he will sit his starter for the past 4 years in Bruce Bowen? Both were getting roasted by Melo so I guess Pop felt he should go with offense.

TVI
11-02-2005, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by: Drbio
Finley has been a swinging gate at the defensive end, but man oh man is he playing some outstanding offensive basketball.

At 4:52 left in the game he dropped his jock for Carmelo. Anthony made him look pretty old there. i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gifIn fairness to Fin, nobody seemed able to stop Melo. The dude was hitting some tough shots.

#1MavsFan
11-02-2005, 01:07 AM
Michael Finley, GF 28 7-10 1-1 1-2 1 4 5 1 0 0 2 1 16

Thats really impressive, I wish the mavs could get sg play anywhere close to that.

EricaLubarsky
11-02-2005, 03:11 AM
it just pisses me off that he put in so little effort last year. The guy is a champion and in a good system, he's still star material.

DelNegro
11-02-2005, 10:45 AM
In fairness to Fin, nobody seemed able to stop Melo. The dude was hitting some tough shots.

Melo impressed last night. He's 20 pounds lighter than last year making him quicker, and for at least one night he realized that his game is on the low block, not out on the perimeter shooting jumpers. Finley was overmatched down there, but so was Bowen. The effort was there though. It also seemed as if Pop was testing Finley by letting him deal with Melo all by himself. Bowen was given way more double-teaming help than Finley was.

DelNegro
11-02-2005, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
I thought the most impressive thing was Fin playing at the end of the 4th quarter with Bowen on the bench. Does Pop already have that much confidence in Fin's game that he will sit his starter for the past 4 years in Bruce Bowen? Both were getting roasted by Melo so I guess Pop felt he should go with offense.

I was somewhat surprised about that too, but Pop has always done stuff like this early in the season. He likes to play the new additions in crunch time early in the season to see how they respond. Long term though I think it just depends on the game situation as for who will be getting the 4th quarter minutes. If the Spurs are playing with a lead you'll probably see Bowen, Finley from behind.

MavKikiNYC
11-02-2005, 11:05 AM
Finley and the Mavericks had oddly parallel nights---both played poorly for 3 quarters (more or less), and then finished with a flurry to take decisions (separately) in their first game apart.

Finley did not look good at all until Q4, but he came through very nicely last night by playing WITHIN the COMPLEMENTARY role that the Spurs have for him. If he could have done that for the Mavericks consistently this year (and not to mention with the same financial consequences that he represents for the Spur), then I would certainly have loved for the Mavericks to have been able to have kept him.

Will be interesting to see if he is able to produce at this level consistently for the Spurs. If he is, they are going to have a really strong 1-2 punch at that position with him and Bruce El-Bowen.

Here's hoping for the Spurs, for the fans of Finley (as well as for the detractors of Mark Cuban, among which I fail to count myself on this issue) that he's able to do so.

Murphy3
11-02-2005, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
it just pisses me off that he put in so little effort last year. The guy is a champion and in a good system, he's still star material.

I'll agree with the first part. I'm pissed off with how little effort he gave last year. I don't agree with the next sentence though.

alby
11-02-2005, 01:52 PM
We all saw this last year, the question was consistency...

alby
11-02-2005, 01:55 PM
was he boxing out, grabbing rebounds, moving without the ball, etc for us last year? just wondering...............................

FilthyFinMavs
11-02-2005, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by: alby
was he boxing out, grabbing rebounds, moving without the ball, etc for us last year? just wondering...............................

When he wasn't hurt he was. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

FilthyFinMavs
11-02-2005, 04:27 PM
Is Finley already a Sixth Man favorite?
Charley Rosen / Special to FOXSports.com
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5045944
Posted: 2 minutes ago

The first stop in our initial swing through the league was San Antonio, where the Spurs began their title defense against the ambitious Denver Nuggets by claiming a 102-91 decision.

Let's take a close look at San Antonio's three significant newcomers Michael Finley, Fabrico Oberto, and Nick Van Exel as well as the return to the starting lineup of an all but forgotten veteran, Rasho Nesterovic.

MIN FG 3FG FT REB A BS TO ST PTS
Nesterovic 10 1-2 0-0 0-0 2 0 1 1 0 2
Oberto 14 3-4 0-0 0-0 4 0 0 2 0 6
Van Exel 14 2-5 1-3 0-0 0 2 0 2 0 5
Finley 28 7-10 1-1 1-2 5 1 0 2 0 16

Nesterovic

Among all the Spurs' "true" centers (which also includes Oberto and Nazr Mohammed, and excludes Tim Duncan), Nesterovic has the most potent offense in screen/roll (S/R) situations. This is because he's an excellent passer and shooter, and because he can fade and post as well as roll to the hoop. Being mindful of Nesterovic's accurate mid-range jumper, opponents have to tighten up their S/R defense and beware of using his defender to double the ball handler. In his lone post-up opportunity, Nesterovic bagged a neat fadeaway-turnaround jumper over his right shoulder.

Defense is another story: Nesterovic was properly situated in one-on-one face-offs, but his weak-side to strong-side rotations were usually late. Also, Nesterovic is very slow off his feet, and both Kenyon Martin and Marcus Camby routinely beat him to rebounds despite his having optimum position.

Mohammed can't match Nesterovic's offensive skills, but is much quicker both vertically and laterally. With Nesterovic in the game, however, the Spurs have still one more player who can move the ball and facilitate an often erratic offense.

Oberto

Even though he hit a low-slung jumper from 18-feet, Oberto is best without the ball in his hands. He made several nice cuts to the hoop, and he also had a nifty put-back when his man stepped up to help on a penetrating guard. Also credit Oberto with a slick pass to a cutting Robert Horry, and discredit him for a silly turnover pass into heavy traffic.

Simply put, Oberto's defense was horrible. His rotations were late, he failed to box out, he got lost several times in transition defense, and Eduardo Najera (not noted for his offensive prowess) took him to school on a four-dribble one-on-one move. At one point, Oberto was so lost on defense that he had no idea who he was supposed to be guarding. Like Nesterovic, Oberto is slow off his feet and spring-legged smaller players routinely beat him to the top of rebounds.

Sure, as the season progresses, Oberto will figure out all the angles and assignments, and, yes, he's strictly a role player. But Oberto seems to the kind of marginally athletic and minimally skilled player who could only survive (and contribute) on a team that plays with discipline and is also loaded with scorers. It's hard to imagine Oberto meriting more than garbage-time minutes for any other squad in the league.

Van Exel

His first rotation was his best: Being guarded by Camby in a switch, Van Exel's initial shot for his new team was a 3-ball that split the net. A few minutes later, another defensive switch had Van Exel being guarded by Najera. This time, Nick was quick to the hoop with one of his familiar flippers. (The Spurs also ran a pair of staggered screens to get Van Exel good looks, but he missed them both.) He tossed one assist-pass to Duncan and another to Finley that resulted in scores. And that was just about all that Van Exel registered in the plus column.

On the debit side of his offense, Van Exel forced a drive and was tooted for a charge, threw a pass to nobody when confronted with full-court pressure, and was understandably tentative with the ball.

On the defensive end he was roasted by Earl Boykins, to the point of being faked off his feet twenty feet from the basket. Boykins beat Van Exel downcourt once (an unforgivable lapse), and generally had his way with the X-man in Denver's half-court sets. Defense is, always has been, and always will be the most vulnerable part of Van Exel's game. As much as he can, Popovich will have to match Van Exel up with point guards who don't look to score.

Finley

After Carmelo Anthony had opened the game by abusing Bruce Bowen with two quick spins in the low post, Finley was the Spurs' first sub off the bench. Right away, Anthony received a pass near the foul line, drove right, and pulled up for a jumper and Finley was right there as close as a tick on a dog, forcing Melo to miss.

Thereafter, just about every time Anthony ventured into the low post, the Spurs sent a double-teamer to help Finley. In the fourth quarter, however, the Spurs let Finley try to handle Anthony on his own. The result was consecutive baskets on a trio of tight spin moves, and another score when Anthony utilized a surprise screen from Camby.

Michael Finley can only help the Spurs' chances of a championship repeat. (D. Clarke Evans / Getty Images)

(Indeed, one-on-one moves by either Anthony or Boykins represented the most successful aspects of Denver's half-court offense.)

If defending Anthony unaided was beyond Finley's (and most likely any other single defender in the entire league) capacity, the Spurs' prize free-agent catch was much more successful on the downhill end of the court: An understandable parley of caution and confusion caused Finley to make several weak passes the most egregious being a softly-bouncing attempt at a cross-court pass along the baseline that plopped weakly out of bounds.

And later in the fourth quarter Finley was expecting one of his teammates to shoot when the extra pass (a specialty of the Spurs) caught him by surprise and bounced off his hands. A wily veteran, Finley was usually stationed beyond the 3-point arc on the weak side, but he hustled himself into a put-back in transition, and also executed a sharp cut to the hoop whereupon he turned a pass from TD into a dunk.

But Finley demonstrated that there was one particular aspect of his game that will undoubtedly enhance San Antonio's chances for a repeat his ability to catch and shoot in the clutch.

Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!

Finley nailed four big ones in the closing minutes of the game enabling the Spurs to pull away from the overmatched Nuggets and cement their win.

So, then, Nesterovic appears to be a useful, but strictly part-time big man. Oberto will need lots of time to figure out who he's guarding and how to successfully accomplish this task. Van Exel's inferior defense will most likely insure that he spends the majority of the season being a stranger in paradise. But it's Michael Finley who will eventually make the biggest difference for the Spurs.

Is it too early to tout Finley for Sixth Man honors?

Charley Rosen, former CBA coach, author of 12 books about hoops, the current one being A pivotal season How the 1971-72 L.A. Lakers changed the NBA, is a frequent contributor to FOXSports.com.

MavKikiNYC
11-02-2005, 05:34 PM
I think needs to get at least 25-30 of that kind of games under his belt before anyone starts talking about 6th Man awards.

But Charley Rosen can retire the prize already for stupid columns.

FilthyFinMavs
11-02-2005, 05:41 PM
Yea its premature but i'm just shock by the media love. They wait to give him this love after he leaves the Mavs. Even back when he was making All Star games he never recieved this much love.

rabbitproof
11-03-2005, 02:31 AM
Cuban is right. The media loves to think with money in its mind.

The amount of love you recieve is relative to the paycheck you draw every week. Sure, he's due 50M+ but he's currently playing for a NBA peanuts contract. Slap Finley on the Spurs with a 17M+ price tag and I don't care if he plays 60 games like he played yesterday, he's going to be criticized.

Same rule applies to teams in my mind. If the Mavs had a run of the mill payroll, the TNT crew would not bash on Dallas so.

Anyways, Finley is underpaid now, was overpaid before, is in the right place and played very well last night. Go Findawg go!

alby
11-03-2005, 06:25 PM
true.

FilthyFinMavs
11-04-2005, 12:22 AM
You've got a point Rabbit but what's the reasoning behind Nash getting so much love from the media all of a sudden? He played the same way with the Mavs and wasn't even an MVP candidate let alone winner. But when he leaves the Mavs he's all of a sudden a new player at 30.

MrCheerios
11-04-2005, 04:53 AM
^^
Probably had something to do with him getting the most assists per game since Stockton was in his prime. His team winning 62 games probably didn't hurt either. And his team's scoring average dropping from 110ppg to high-80's when he was injured probably cemented it.

jayC
11-04-2005, 02:00 PM
First Finley is hit or miss because he is surely a jumpshooter. He will have games with the spurs where he nails four open threes in a row. It is easy to look good when you have all-star Duncan and all-star Ginobli on the floor with you. I am willing to bet when Stack comes back we won't miss Fin nearly as much.

MavsFanFinley
11-05-2005, 12:20 AM
Finley is going to probably have quite a few nights like these. But sprinkled between those good shooting nights, he'll have stat lines of

2-8 for 6 points, 2 rebounds, 2 turnovers....

As Bayliss predicted ... Finley shot poorly tonight but he made up for it in other areas.

20min, 1-6, 1-3, 3pts, 4rbs, 3as, 1to, 2stls

And the defense, hustle, energy, boxing out were there just as much as the first game.

The Crippler
11-05-2005, 12:10 PM
i disagree. Finley looked like last years Finley friday night. He was soft as charmin, and those assists are much easier to come by with Duncan on your team.

alby
11-05-2005, 01:26 PM
20 minutes, 1 of 6 shooting, 3 points

where most of his minutes were against Cleveland's second team

there's the Fin we all know and love

#1MavsFan
11-05-2005, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by: alby
20 minutes, 1 of 6 shooting, 3 points

where most of his minutes were against Cleveland's second team

there's the Fin we all know and love

Most of his minutes weren't against Clevelands 2nd team, and how easily we overlook the 3 assists, 2 steals, and 4 rebounds. Also Pop has praised him recently for his hustle on defense.

Bayliss
11-05-2005, 02:54 PM
Most of his minutes weren't against Clevelands 2nd team

8 out of his minutes were. He was subbed in the 4th quarter and at that point he was 0-3 for 0 points, 2 rebounds, and 2 assists.

He gained his 3 points, 1 assist, and 2 rebounds in the blowout garbage time.

dude1394
11-05-2005, 02:57 PM
Sounds like rationalization to me. Hmmmm.....finley or christie......wonder who would be better on this team....hmmmmm...

Thespiralgoeson
11-05-2005, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by: dude1394 Hmmmm.....finley or christie......wonder who would be better on this team....hmmmmm...

Marquis Daniels

#1MavsFan
12-15-2005, 11:49 PM
Fin had a good game tonight as he was the difference in the SA/Min game.

21 points (team high) on 7 of 13 shooting with 2 assists, 4 rebounds, a steal, and a block.

And in his last game against the clippers he had:

21 points on 8 of 15 shooting with 10 boards.

He is starting to step up for the Spurs in a big way.

MavsFanFinley
12-16-2005, 12:15 AM
Finley has stepped up in place of the injured Ginobli. He looks so much more comfortable with the team.

AP recap:

By DAVE CAMPBELL, AP Sports Writer
December 15, 2005

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- Michael Finley nearly signed with Minnesota this summer, ultimately choosing to leave Dallas for defending champion San Antonio.

On Thursday night, Finley left the Timberwolves frowning again.

The veteran swingman scored 21 points, including the last six for the Spurs, to help San Antonio hold off Minnesota 90-88.

"Finley is definitely stepping up and playing great basketball," teammate Tony Parker said. "He's just feeling more comfortable with the team."

Kevin Garnett got the best of Tim Duncan with 24 points and a season-high 21 rebounds, but the Timberwolves dropped their third straight game when Troy Hudson's off-balance, running 15-foot jumper in traffic at the buzzer fell short.

Garnett, who was wide open at the top of the key, had a glum look on his face when Finley approached him and put his arms on his shoulders in consolation. As fans filed out and players walked to the locker room, Finley told Garnett how much he wanted to play with him.

"Unlike some of the other people in the league I told over the phone, I wanted to tell Kevin face to face," said Finley, who had 21 points in his last game, too, filling in for the injured Manu Ginobili. "It was a tough decision, because I've always been a Kevin Garnett fan. In my opinion, he's one of the best players to ever play the game."

Duncan had 13 points and nine rebounds, missing four of his seven free-throw attempts. He was 5-for-20 from the foul line in his previous two games.

Garnett made a pair of free throws to bring the Wolves to 80-76 with 4:44 remaining, the closest they got since the second quarter. Hudson did the same to make it 84-80, but Brent Barry found Finley open on a baseline cut -- and the 11-year veteran swished a jumper to put San Antonio back up by six.

After Marko Jaric's layup, Finley sank a 3-pointer to increase the lead to seven.

"Finley has hit some big shots throughout his career," Garnett said, "and that is a classic example of the weapons they have."

Garnett appreciated Finley's gesture after the game.

"I have a lot of respect for the man," he said.

Minnesota didn't quit, cutting the lead to 89-87 on a layup by Wally Szczerbiak -- who had 23 points -- with 1:09 to play. Parker was called for a charging foul against Hudson, giving the Wolves a chance to tie.

Jaric missed a layup, Anthony Carter missed a long jumper and Garnett missed a turnaround. Jaric grabbed his rebound on that possession and was fouled with 5.8 seconds remaining, but he made only one of two foul shots.

Finley then went 1-for-2 at the line on the other end after drawing a foul, setting up the final possession. The Spurs, who improved to 18-4, are 16-0 when they shoot 45 percent or better from the field.

That's because they're so sound with their backs to the basket.

Minnesota coach Dwane Casey, whose team fell to 3-7 in games decided by five points or less, considers San Antonio his defensive measuring stick. But the Wolves might have given the Spurs too much respect in a woeful second quarter in which they settled for too many jump shots -- a customary problem for them.

"It takes us getting our butts kicked to turn it on," Szczerbiak said.

A 21-14 lead melted into a 10-point halftime deficit, after the Spurs outscored the Timberwolves 25-8 in the period. It was the lowest second-quarter total in Minnesota's 17 seasons.

Garnett's rest always comes in this period, and the Wolves were outscored 14-2 during the time he sat out -- with Robert Horry scoring the first seven points on a free throw and back-to-back 3-pointers.

It's early in the season, but the Wolves' confidence has been shaken this week. They lost on consecutive nights at Philadelphia and against Sacramento -- which came on the heels of a five-game winning streak. They watched Bonzi Wells swish a long 3-pointer at the buzzer to give the Kings a 93-91 victory on Tuesday, and the Sixers pulled out a 90-89 overtime decision the day before.

Hudson, back from a four-game absence due to knee and calf injuries, sparked the Timberwolves late in the third period after substituting for Michael Olowokandi with less than 5 minutes left.

Hudson had two assists and six points in that stretch before the buzzer, bringing Minnesota to 63-58.

Notes

Ginobili missed his second straight game, and fourth overall, for San Antonio because of a sprained right foot. ... Minnesota's franchise record for fewest points in any period is seven, set in the third quarter of a 104-76 loss to Golden State on Dec. 11, 1999. ... Olowokandi signed a $16.2 million, three-year contract with the Wolves in the summer of 2003, the same night that Rasho Nesterovic left Minnesota to join the Spurs for a $42 million, six-year deal.

chumdawg
12-16-2005, 12:26 AM
So I guess he is SLIGHTLY more skilled than Allan Houston.

Let's just say that the Mavs did decide that they wanted to upgrade their roster by trade. Fin would have made Stack--or even Daniels or Terry--more expendable.

Dtownsfinest
12-16-2005, 12:43 AM
Yea its funny because we all heard about how bad of a team guy Finley was becoming. He wouldn't accept a backup role and he wouldn't committ to defense. He was becoming nothing but primarily a jumpshooter and the Mavs would be better without him. We're still looking for a Finley replacement. This guy is putting possibly the best team in the NBA on his back and he's carrying them in the 4th quarter. I do agree we need to see more but i'm just happy for Finley. No way you can be a longtime Mavs fan and not be happy to see the guy succeed. Didn't last game he put up 21/10? We're paying Mike Finley 15 million a year to play for the Spurs lol.

capitalcity
12-16-2005, 01:07 AM
I root for the jersey.

dirno2000
12-16-2005, 01:12 AM
It's worth noting that his two best performances have come while he was starting for the injured Ginobli. I don't think there's any doubt that he feels more comfortable in this role. It'll be interesting to see if he can carry this momentum to the bench when Manu returns.

DeusDeOmini
12-16-2005, 01:14 AM
Yea its funny because we all heard about how bad of a team guy Finley was becoming. He wouldn't accept a backup role and he wouldn't committ to defense. He was becoming nothing but primarily a jumpshooter and the Mavs would be better without him. We're still looking for a Finley replacement. This guy is putting possibly the best team in the NBA on his back and he's carrying them in the 4th quarter. I do agree we need to see more but i'm just happy for Finley. No way you can be a longtime Mavs fan and not be happy to see the guy succeed. Didn't last game he put up 21/10? We're paying Mike Finley 15 million a year to play for the Spurs lol.

we are looking for a finley replacement? Don't think so, Quis is our starting SG, and a better one then Fin.

Dtownsfinest
12-16-2005, 01:51 AM
we are looking for a finley replacement? Don't think so, Quis is our starting SG, and a better one then Fin.


Quis isn't a 2 though. He's a 3 who happens to play the 2 spot. In order to be a shooting guard you have to be able to shoot. I'm not gonna get into a Fin vs. Daniels debate and side with Finley and bash one of my favorite players for the Mavs. Its pointless. But this team is currently looking for a threat outside and they don't have it. Their biggest threat from outside happens to be their distributor.

u2sarajevo
12-16-2005, 07:38 AM
Two things:

1. I wonder if when reported during the offseason that Finley wouldn't accept a backup role that was a bunch of malarkey given by management to make the eventual outcome easier to swallow.

2. Just to clarify - Mark Cuban is paying Finley 15 million. "We", being the team I suppose, don't have to pay him anything because of the exception created by the new CBA.

I also root for the jersey, but it's hard not to root for Mike Finley. He plays for the enemy, but I still deep down inside want him to do well and am glad to see that he is.

Nash13
12-16-2005, 09:34 AM
Yea its funny because we all heard about how bad of a team guy Finley was becoming. He wouldn't accept a backup role and he wouldn't committ to defense. He was becoming nothing but primarily a jumpshooter and the Mavs would be better without him. We're still looking for a Finley replacement. This guy is putting possibly the best team in the NBA on his back and he's carrying them in the 4th quarter. I do agree we need to see more but i'm just happy for Finley. No way you can be a longtime Mavs fan and not be happy to see the guy succeed. Didn't last game he put up 21/10? We're paying Mike Finley 15 million a year to play for the Spurs lol.


No offense, but in this case you don't know what you're talking about. 1st, he still isn't the best 6th man nor does he commit to defense. 2nd, when you consider Daniels, along with the increased productivity of Terry/Harris/Howard, and our record, we have found a Finley replacement. Also in regards to you saying Daniels can't shoot, his fg% is miles better than Finley.

Dtownsfinest
12-16-2005, 12:18 PM
No offense, but in this case you don't know what you're talking about. 1st, he still isn't the best 6th man nor does he commit to defense. 2nd, when you consider Daniels, along with the increased productivity of Terry/Harris/Howard, and our record, we have found a Finley replacement. Also in regards to you saying Daniels can't shoot, his fg% is miles better than Finley.


Who said he was the best 6th man? In the offseason I wondered why the Mavs would cut Finley for anything other than money reasons and I was told he wouldn't accept a backup role. He's done that in San Antonio. Whether he's the best 6th man or not i'm just saying from the looks of things he's accepting the role. I don't expect him to be all world in just 20 games. It takes more time then that to get a feel for what he will bring to the Spurs whether its good or bad. Increased productivity? Statistically or what? Because when I watch Mavs games I see our perimeter defense being as bad as it was in that '03 season when we were running Nick and Nash out there.

And as far as Daniels field goal % being miles better than Finley's I never said it wasn't. Daniels' only weapon is to go into the paint and shoot over the top of a smaller defender. He better be shooting 48% from the field from in there. He's a 3 not a 2. You can't be a shooting guard and not be able to shoot. I'm not gonna rag on Daniels too hard because i'm a fan of his and i'm a Mavericks fan. But i'm also a realist and the Daniels I see out there is more suited to back up Josh then start for us unless he all of a sudden gets range in his jumpshot.

Arne
12-16-2005, 12:44 PM
Who said he was the best 6th man? In the offseason I wondered why the Mavs would cut Finley for anything other than money reasons and I was told he wouldn't accept a backup role. He's done that in San Antonio. Whether he's the best 6th man or not i'm just saying from the looks of things he's accepting the role. I don't expect him to be all world in just 20 games. It takes more time then that to get a feel for what he will bring to the Spurs whether its good or bad. Increased productivity? Statistically or what? Because when I watch Mavs games I see our perimeter defense being as bad as it was in that '03 season when we were running Nick and Nash out there.

And as far as Daniels field goal % being miles better than Finley's I never said it wasn't. Daniels' only weapon is to go into the paint and shoot over the top of a smaller defender. He better be shooting 48% from the field from in there. He's a 3 not a 2. You can't be a shooting guard and not be able to shoot. I'm not gonna rag on Daniels too hard because i'm a fan of his and i'm a Mavericks fan. But i'm also a realist and the Daniels I see out there is more suited to back up Josh then start for us unless he all of a sudden gets range in his jumpshot.
Daniels does hit the mid-range jumper and I know a lot of Swingmen who have done well in this league without a 3-pt-jumper.

Daniels can handle the ball better than Finley, can shoot a higher percentage, can rebound at least equally good, can pass the ball way better than Finley and doesn't need to get his jumpshot going in order to be an effective player out there.

The only two things in which Finley is ahead of Daniels, is 3-pt-shooting and creating his own shot (in which Finley has become worse and worse over the years).

The thing that you got right, in my opinion, is that Finley was traded only because of money reasons. Because in the summer nobody could reckon with Daniels as such a stud. And if Finley had had a reasonable contract, there would have been, ofcourse, no reason to cut him.

Dtownsfinest
12-16-2005, 05:13 PM
Daniels can handle the ball better than Finley, can shoot a higher percentage, can rebound at least equally good, can pass the ball way better than Finley and doesn't need to get his jumpshot going in order to be an effective player out there.




You sure about that? I've never seen Daniels beat anyone off of the dribble and according to stats last season in 35 minutes per game Finley only averaged .94 turnovers per game while Marquis last season averaged 1.43 in 10 less minutes while this year he's averaging 2.18. Doesn't seem like he's handling the ball better then Finley at all.

Daniels does hit the mid-range jumper and I know a lot of Swingmen who have done well in this league without a 3-pt-jumper.


I agree. Last season RIP wasn't much of a threat from 3 but he also could beat guys off the dribble and find ways to get open. Marquis can't do that. He has to shoot over the top of opponents and if a Shawn Marion is on him he's passing out.

The only two things in which Finley is ahead of Daniels, is 3-pt-shooting and creating his own shot (in which Finley has become worse and worse over the years).

He's also a better ball handler, rebounder and defender or atleast he was last season. And wasn't Finley also hurt last season as well? I don't know if it was a hamstring problem or ankle but I remember hearing something about Fin playing hurt. Meanwhile, Daniels was on the bench watching Finley play hurt. Daniels is our future and he's the one that's a current Mav. But I see his flaws and I see him as a 3 over a 2.

MavsFanFinley
12-16-2005, 06:33 PM
It's obvious some still haven't watched the Spurs play this season. Fin's defense is much better and is playing solid within Pop's system.

It's like the tired saying that the Mavs are soft.

Dtownsfinest
12-17-2005, 12:12 AM
The fact that Fin is out there in the clutch in closing minutes dismisses the opinion that he isn't playing any d in San Antonio. Yea, Gino is hurt but Pop doesn't just throw guys out there for offense. If you aren't defending your out the game.

Nash13
12-17-2005, 09:23 PM
Dtown,

Please don't attempt to compare Daniels turnovers to Finley. Everyone on this board knows that when Daniels is on the floor, he is asked to handle the ball more than anyone, while last year's Finley was hardly asked to create for others.

And Rip is much like Peja when it comes to scoring. A good amount of their looks come off a pick and he likes to post his defender. The biggest difference between Daniels and Rip is that Rip can hit his shots more consistently.

And yeah Finley was hurt, so what? Every player last year except Henderson of all people, missed games due to injury. There was already an established rotation with Finley b/c unlike Finley, Daniels missed a lot of games due to his injury.

And for the record, who do you think should start at SG? B/c you can argue that all of our swingmen are really 3s.





MFF,

At this point, it is hard to determine Finley's true worth offensively and defensively. Yeah, Finley's play great now, but he went through a serious funk to start off the season. And when you consider the Ginobli factor and the fact that the only 2 people that have a negative +/- off the court are Duncan and Parker, you can't tell. But from the limited games i've seen, he's improved but that doesn't necessarily make him good

dude1394
12-17-2005, 10:32 PM
I wish the best for finley as long as the mavs are on top of them at the end of the year. But Marquis is doing everything right this year. His defense is much better than mikes was and his shot selection has been excellent.

There is NO comparison between Quis' handles and mikes. Fin is about a 2 on a scale of 5 for guards and quisy is at least a 3 and close to a 4.

And Marquis can make his own shot every bit as well as mike can. He just can't shoot a fadeaway from 20 feet. But he's able to get a 12 footer or better at will.

mary
12-17-2005, 10:43 PM
Finley with the game winner tonight against the Sad Sacs.

Very dissappointing...sigh.

MavsFanFinley
12-17-2005, 10:43 PM
Michael F'ing Finley with another dagger to give the Spurs the win over the Kings.

Wells scored over Finley/Horry with 7.6 seconds left to give the Kings the 1pt lead.

Spurs inbound to Parker, fakes pass to Duncan and kicks out to Finley for the jumper with 2.6 seconds left.

Bibby, who was killing the Spurs all night, misses the 3 at the buzzer.

Finley shot 7-12, 2-3, for 16pts points. Only 1rb and 1stl but 3rd straight game that keys the Spurs to the win.

dude1394
12-17-2005, 11:09 PM
Dang mike, cut it out, we need to make up some games on those punks.

TVI
12-18-2005, 12:41 AM
SAN ANTONIO (AP) -- Being a starter again agrees with Michael Finley (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3023/), and it seems to agree with the San Antonio Spurs (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/sas/) as well. Finley, the longtime Dallas starter replacing the injured Manu Ginobili (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3380/), hit a 20-foot jumper with 2.5 seconds left to give the Spurs a 90-89 win over the Sacramento Kings (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/sac/) on Saturday night.
In the three games since Ginobili went inactive with a sprained right foot, Finley has averaged just under 20 points per game and made eight of his 13 3-point attempts.
And San Antonio has won all three.
"With (Ginobili) being out, I didn't want the team to take a step back," said Finley, who made two of three behind the arc and finished with 16 points. "So I knew I had to pick up my game a little bit, kind of ride the waves a little bit until he gets back."

u2sarajevo
12-18-2005, 12:55 AM
:)

That is sweet Mike.

Drbio
12-18-2005, 12:59 AM
Mike is en fuego!!! We all knew this would happen though.


Good for him.

TVI
12-18-2005, 01:06 AM
No offense, but in this case you don't know what you're talking about. 1st, he still isn't the best 6th man nor does he commit to defense. I disagree. If Fin didn't commit to defense, he'd never see the floor. You don't get to play for Pop if you don't play any defense.

Contrary to popular opinion, Fin's defense has been pretty decent this season. Sure, he's a step slower than he used to be, and he does get beat by younger, quicker players, but in the team defense concept, he's doing pretty good considering his short duration with the team.

dude1394
12-18-2005, 02:00 AM
It would be interesting to see if Fin stays a starter and Manu comes off the bench. I don't know how he would take that, it would be interesting. Manu would be a more natural 6th man as he's a lot more explosive than mike. Mike still needs folks to have him setup whereas manu seems to make more happen on his own.

But stop it mike, that's two games we should have made up. Guess we'll have to to it the hard way head to head.

aexchange
12-18-2005, 02:09 AM
mike always has these streaks.

in about 10 games, he'll be struggling from the floor and the spurs fans will be talking about how much he sucks. i love the guy, but it was time to move on. i wish he could have stayed a mav, but life goes on and so did he.

chumdawg
12-18-2005, 02:42 AM
As life goes on, Finley starts games (and contributes nicely) for what is CLEARLY the best team in all of basketball. And somehow the Mavs are better off that he isn't starting (or contributing) for them? Are we that much better than the Spurs already?

I'm sure there is an explanation somehwere, but I'm hard pressed to find it.

Oh, and by the way, I don't see anything all that special about Daniels's handles. For all the flack Finley took, he did protect the ball very well. And he was a very competent passer. Look, I like Daniels a whole, whole lot...but he's got some doing to do before he even gets in Finley's neighborhood--in a lot of respects.

dirno2000
12-18-2005, 04:00 AM
Chum are we assuming that Fin would have accepted the role here that he's playing with the Spurs: a bench player who gets erratic minutes unless the starting 2 or 3 goes down? If the answer is yes then I'll concede that he would have come in handy when Josh and Quis were out.

The jury’s still out on weather he's a good fit for his intended role as he's been horribly inefficient off the bench. Now it could be that he's just learning the system and, having gotten a crash course over the past week, will still be a strong contributor when Manu gets healthy…time will tell.

capitalcity
12-18-2005, 08:31 AM
How many rebs last night? 1
How many FT attempts last night? 0
How many assists last night? 0

That's fine and dandy for a spurs team that needs a spot up shooter. But nights with these paltry numbers would bury avery's young bunch. Finley's contribution = smoke and mirrors.

MavsFanFinley
12-18-2005, 12:01 PM
How many rebs last night? 1
How many FT attempts last night? 0
How many assists last night? 0

That's fine and dandy for a spurs team that needs a spot up shooter. But nights with these paltry numbers would bury avery's young bunch. Finley's contribution = smoke and mirrors.

Fin's only had 2 or 3 games where he had only 1 rebound or 1 assist. Otherwise he's provided across the board when shooting poorly. Something many begged him to do last year here in Dallas.

I like how you post on one of those nights.

If you had watched the game you would have seen Fin make some nice passes to open teammates who simply missed the shot. Or seen him under the basket tapping balls out. The effort and hustle and defense is there but some refuse to see it.

capitalcity
12-18-2005, 12:27 PM
Blinders.

He averages only 1 assist and 1 FT attempt a game. His rebounding numbers suck too, but are inflated because he had a 10 reb game the other night.

I couldn't find the hustle statistics category...

Nash13
12-18-2005, 12:35 PM
I disagree. If Fin didn't commit to defense, he'd never see the floor. You don't get to play for Pop if you don't play any defense.

Contrary to popular opinion, Fin's defense has been pretty decent this season. Sure, he's a step slower than he used to be, and he does get beat by younger, quicker players, but in the team defense concept, he's doing pretty good considering his short duration with the team.


That's kind of my point. B/c you can argue that a few Spurs, particularly in the backcourt, are not good defenders. But in a team defensive concept, it'll make not so good defenders look better.

DeusDeOmini
12-18-2005, 03:04 PM
It would be interesting to see if Fin stays a starter and Manu comes off the bench. I don't know how he would take that, it would be interesting. Manu would be a more natural 6th man as he's a lot more explosive than mike. Mike still needs folks to have him setup whereas manu seems to make more happen on his own.

But stop it mike, that's two games we should have made up. Guess we'll have to to it the hard way head to head.

lol, yeah, fin will start over manu, right.

FINtastic
12-18-2005, 06:05 PM
dude has a point. It might be better for the Spurs to make Finley a starter. I don't think Ginobili seems to mind coming off the bench, but Finley seems to be a lot worse when he is coming off the bench. Maybe, he just needed this little stretch to wake him up, but he was shooting the ball atrociously off the bench. Ever since he has been inserted in the starting lineup, he has been shooting about 50% from the field. Even with this stretch, he is still shooting the worst from the field in his entire career.

Finley's defense may be better, but I doubt it's anything to write home to mom about. I know there are people on the Spurs message boards that have complained about it at times during the season. I haven't watched the Spurs play much, but I did watch the end of that Sacramento game. The only reason Finley had to make that last shot was because he let Bonzi Wells blow right by him on the other end to put Sacramento up by 1.

dude1394
12-18-2005, 06:08 PM
lol, yeah, fin will start over manu, right.

LOL indeed.... I think we have a guy in stackhouse that was better than finley as well last year who came off the bench. Who's to say it won't happen again.

Dtownsfinest
12-18-2005, 06:28 PM
Dtown,

Please don't attempt to compare Daniels turnovers to Finley. Everyone on this board knows that when Daniels is on the floor, he is asked to handle the ball more than anyone, while last year's Finley was hardly asked to create for others.
[QUOTE]

Really? So why does he only average .5 more assists then Finley did injured last season?


[QUOTE]And yeah Finley was hurt, so what? Every player last year except Henderson of all people, missed games due to injury. There was already an established rotation with Finley b/c unlike Finley, Daniels missed a lot of games due to his injury.

I don't remember anyone playing hurt other than Daniels last season. But i'm not comparing Daniels of last season to Finley of last season.

And for the record, who do you think should start at SG? B/c you can argue that all of our swingmen are really 3s.

Look, I have nothing against Daniels as a player nor as a person. He and Josh are some of my favorites on this team. But i'm also not gonna sit here and bash Finley just because he's no longer a Mav. I was a fan of his before he was a Spur and I will be until he retires. I just fell in love with him as a player when he became a Mav. I'm still fans of Jason Kidd and Jim Jackson 'till this day. Just an attachment I have towards ex-mavs. I'd probably say that Daniels is more suited for playing under Avery then Finley is. Its funny because Avery is trying to establish a Spurs type of play in Dallas while Finley is excelling playing in the same scheme but for whatever reason Finley couldn't play for Avery so i'd say Daniels is more suitable to play for the Mavs then Finley is. But when I look at Daniels play he's more of a 3 than a 2. Sort of reminds me of Lamar Odom a bit but shorter and without the mid range game. I believe in order for us to play to our capablities we need a shooting guard who can shoot. Not just shoot 2 feet away from the basket but can keep the defense honest and can shoot from wherever. If Stackhouse wasn't a 40% shooter from the field he'd fit the role but he's way to inconsistent.


And as far as who should start at the 2? Honestly if I was coach i'd go out here with Damp, Dirk, Josh, JET and Harris. I'll atleast experiment with it to see how it worked. Whether it would work or not i'm not sure but i'd test that out. I want Stack and KVH playing alongside Dirk as least as I possibly can so i'd rule them out of starting.


Fin starting over Gino would be interesting. Ginobilli has proved he can score from the bench while Finley has yet to do so. Pop's gotta see this. I think if this routine continues Fin will be in the starting spot and Ginobilli will be the 6th man. I think its probably better for them since Nick sees greenlight when he enters the game. But I still think we see Bowen, Ginobilli and Parker ending games.

MavsFanFinley
12-18-2005, 09:17 PM
Blinders.

He averages only 1 assist and 1 FT attempt a game. His rebounding numbers suck too, but are inflated because he had a 10 reb game the other night.

I couldn't find the hustle statistics category...

4 rebounds a game suck? That's news to me.

I thought you round up, but I guess it's down.

You couldn't find a hustle category? That just goes to show that you look at the stats and don't bother watching the games. I guess that's why you know more than Pop.

Nash13
12-18-2005, 10:16 PM
[/q]Really? So why does he only average .5 more assists then Finley did injured last season?[/q]

B/c our offense sucks right now. Our leading player in assist is the guy who the Avery wants to stop passing, and he only averages 3.8.



I don't remember anyone playing hurt other than Daniels last season. But i'm not comparing Daniels of last season to Finley of last season.

Yes you did, you said, "He's also a better ball handler, rebounder and defender or atleast he was last season." And go back and look at last years stats. You'll see that every player missed games.



Look, I have nothing against Daniels as a player nor as a person. He and Josh are some of my favorites on this team. But i'm also not gonna sit here and bash Finley just because he's no longer a Mav.

Hey, believe it or not, i still like Finley. But like you, i'm not going to sit here and blow up Finley for more than what he is. He's playing good now, fine, i'm happy for him. But we've seen this from Finley the last 2 years. He has a good stint of games and then he goes out like the runaway bride.



And as far as who should start at the 2? Honestly if I was coach i'd go out here with Damp, Dirk, Josh, JET and Harris. I'll atleast experiment with it to see how it worked. Whether it would work or not i'm not sure but i'd test that out. I want Stack and KVH playing alongside Dirk as least as I possibly can so i'd rule them out of starting.

The problem with that is who comes off the bench at the point? Armstrong?

birdsanctuary
12-18-2005, 11:19 PM
No matter how good Fin plays...the move to SA is going to bite him in the a$$...The Mavs will knock SA out of the WCF's this year, because of the development of Devin Harris...

Just look at the rate this guy is developing at each and every game... by season's end he's going to be this years Duane Wade...

Dtownsfinest
12-19-2005, 11:06 AM
B/c our offense sucks right now. Our leading player in assist is the guy who the Avery wants to stop passing, and he only averages 3.8.

Why does the offense suck? From the games i've seen it sucks because there is no ball movement. Everyone wants to create for themselves.

Yes you did, you said, "He's also a better ball handler, rebounder and defender or atleast he was last season." And go back and look at last years stats. You'll see that every player missed games.


I'm comparing Finley of LAST SEASON to Daniels of THIS SEASON. Finley LAST SEASON was a better ball handler, rebounder and defender than Daniels is THIS SEASON.

The problem with that is who comes off the bench at the point? Armstrong?


Yea. He's good enough to start IMO. Harris and JET wouldn't play the whole game beside each other just for some minutes just to change the tempo of the game. Maybe even get better ball movement.


Hey, believe it or not, i still like Finley. But like you, i'm not going to sit here and blow up Finley for more than what he is. He's playing good now, fine, i'm happy for him. But we've seen this from Finley the last 2 years. He has a good stint of games and then he goes out like the runaway bride.

I've blown Finley up for more than what he is? How so? I've even stated Daniels is more suited for this team than Finley was. I'm not saying Fin is 6th man of the year or a all star caliber player. I'm saying he's playing in a role that others said he wouldn't play for the Mavs. You are reading into too much of what i'm saying. The guy has actually won the Spurs games this season. He's put them on his back in the 4th quarter and this is a guy who plays for a team with Tim Duncan and Tony Parker on it. Yet, not only could he not see 4th quarter play at times last season but people felt he didn't even deserve to start for Dallas. Now he's winning games for the Spurs. Had he not been a Spur the Mavs would be ahead of them in the standings right now. I'm just acknowleding what the guy is doing. At the end of the day, i'm a Fin fan but i'm also a Dallas fan first so hopefully whatever success Fin has doesn't come against the Mavs.


No matter how good Fin plays...the move to SA is going to bite him in the a$$...The Mavs will knock SA out of the WCF's this year, because of the development of Devin Harris...

Just look at the rate this guy is developing at each and every game... by season's end he's going to be this years Duane Wade...

The move to SA is going to bite him in the ass? Finley was cut lol. He didn't leave the Mavs he was cut.

capitalcity
12-19-2005, 11:27 AM
Mike?

alby
12-19-2005, 01:49 PM
you forgot it was finley who was guarding wells on that easy postup dropstep layup the spurs gave up.. if fin missed the shot, it'll be a whole new story

Arne
12-19-2005, 02:25 PM
You sure about that? I've never seen Daniels beat anyone off of the dribble and according to stats last season in 35 minutes per game Finley only averaged .94 turnovers per game while Marquis last season averaged 1.43 in 10 less minutes while this year he's averaging 2.18. Doesn't seem like he's handling the ball better then Finley at all.



I agree. Last season RIP wasn't much of a threat from 3 but he also could beat guys off the dribble and find ways to get open. Marquis can't do that. He has to shoot over the top of opponents and if a Shawn Marion is on him he's passing out.



He's also a better ball handler, rebounder and defender or atleast he was last season. And wasn't Finley also hurt last season as well? I don't know if it was a hamstring problem or ankle but I remember hearing something about Fin playing hurt. Meanwhile, Daniels was on the bench watching Finley play hurt. Daniels is our future and he's the one that's a current Mav. But I see his flaws and I see him as a 3 over a 2.
Finley is most certainly the worse ball handler. Daniels played some point, will play some point and is able to play some point, Finley isn't. That should tell you everything about Finleys ball handling skills. Finley didn't do much dribbling last season besides waiting for the shotclock to run down and then jack off a mid-range fade-away after a quick to dribblings. He didn't get by any defender he simply tries to shoot over them.

If you didn't see Daniels beat anyone off the dribbling ever, than you don't watch the Mavericks, right...? I've seen Daniels beating a couple of people off the dribbling this season already, so it's quite obvious that you don't pay enough attention to his play.

Finley only shot these fade-away jumpers off the dribling, besides that he didn't beat more people off the dribbling than Marquis does. And if you count these fade-aways off the dribble as beating someone off the dribble, than why don't you count Daniels fall-away jumpers in the zone after dribbling into the paint, as well as beating someone off the dribble?

Here are his stats per 48 minutes of last season compared to Daniel's this season per 48 minutes:

Finley:
20.4 Pts (he would've needed 18.4 shots per 48 minutes in order to reach this number of points), 5.37 Rebs, 3.39 Asts, 0.97 Stls, 1.3 TOs while shooting only 42.7% from the field.

Daniels 17.8 Pts (he would need only 13.9 shots per 48 minutes in order to reach this number), 6.17 Rebs, 4.2 Asts, 1.49 Stls[b], 2.88 TOs while shooting [b]48.4% from the field.

So Daniels wins 5 of 7 Categories. Plus, he is 5.6 times per game at the free-throw line, while Finley is only 2.7 times at the free-throw line - remeber, all stats are per 48 minutes...

Oh and 31% of Finleys shots were 3pt-attempts.

In my opinion these stats show Finley as the better player and if you really think that Finley is the better defender, than I can only give you the same advise a second time: watch him closely during the games.

[Finley is] a better ball handler, rebounder and defender or at least has been last season

To sum it up all three points are just plain out wrong in my opinion.

Remember, I'm not trying to bash Finley at all and if it hadn't been for the mones, I think he should still be a member of this team, but besides his spot-up shooting, he didn't bring much more last season than what Daniels brings to the floor right now.

Finley has ofcourse been a great player for this franchise, but his time is up and it can only be better for the Mavericks, over a long term to, to have Marquis as the starter right now, since he's still developping and will be even better come playoffs.

Dtownsfinest
12-19-2005, 03:23 PM
Finley is most certainly the worse ball handler. Daniels played some point, will play some point and is able to play some point, Finley isn't. That should tell you everything about Finleys ball handling skills. Finley didn't do much dribbling last season besides waiting for the shotclock to run down and then jack off a mid-range fade-away after a quick to dribblings. He didn't get by any defender he simply tries to shoot over them.

Uhhhh did you watch Fin last season? He was the guy who recieved the ball 2 seconds left on the shot clock and was forced. I won't disagree. Daniels is the better ballhandler but it isn't like he's a great ball handler. He's average. Fin's below average.


If you didn't see Daniels beat anyone off the dribbling ever, than you don't watch the Mavericks, right...? I've seen Daniels beating a couple of people off the dribbling this season already, so it's quite obvious that you don't pay enough attention to his play.

Care to give any examples? I still remember a couple of years ago Adrian Griffin had one of the nastiest crossovers i've ever seen in a live game. He completely embarassed Lamond Murray and made him fall to the ground.

Finley only shot these fade-away jumpers off the dribling, besides that he didn't beat more people off the dribbling than Marquis does. And if you count these fade-aways off the dribble as beating someone off the dribble, than why don't you count Daniels fall-away jumpers in the zone after dribbling into the paint, as well as beating someone off the dribble?

Pay attention now. I never once said Finley beat anyone off the dribble. Never. Fin's ballhandling skills are bad. Horrible. The fact he's been a 20 point per game scorer his career is amazing to me because I don't get how he can even score without having any handles. All of those facials like the dunk on Kobe or the dunk on Yao. He manages to find a way to get to the goal but I don't believe he's a good ball handler. I may be a Finley fan but i'm not blind.

Finley:
20.4 Pts (he would've needed 18.4 shots per 48 minutes in order to reach this number of points), 5.37 Rebs, 3.39 Asts, 0.97 Stls, 1.3 TOs while shooting only 42.7% from the field.

Daniels 17.8 Pts (he would need only 13.9 shots per 48 minutes in order to reach this number), 6.17 Rebs, 4.2 Asts, [b]1.49 Stls[b], 2.88 TOs while shooting 48.4% from the field.

So Daniels wins 5 of 7 Categories. Plus, he is 5.6 times per game at the free-throw line, while Finley is only 2.7 times at the free-throw line - remeber, all stats are per 48 minutes...

Oh and 31% of Finleys shots were 3pt-attempts.


Why are you using their per 48 minute stats? Neither plays 48 minutes per game. I've never been a fan of this statistic because its purely hypothetical. What if.


To sum it up all three points are just plain out wrong in my opinion.


That's fine. I respect your opinion but I just have to disagree. Daniels may handle the ball more than Finley but that doesn't dismiss that he gets more turnovers than Finley does. That doesn't dismiss his assist/turnover ratio is worse than Finley's was last season. Doesn't turnovers fall into the ballhandling department since your handling the ball? Fin did a better job at that than Daniels did.

At the end of the day, Daniels is the better player for the Mavs and Finley is the better player for the Spurs. Daniels is a Mav and Finley isn't. In order for me to give an accuarate comparison between the two players i'll have to wait until the season ends. I can't compare Fin's 82 games to Daniels 19 or whatever he has played.

Arne
12-19-2005, 04:26 PM
That's fine. I respect your opinion but I just have to disagree. Daniels may handle the ball more than Finley but that doesn't dismiss that he gets more turnovers than Finley does. That doesn't dismiss his assist/turnover ratio is worse than Finley's was last season. Doesn't turnovers fall into the ballhandling department since your handling the ball? Fin did a better job at that than Daniels did.

Turnovers are not only plays were the player loses the ball while dribbling, but plays were he throws a ill-advised pass or something like that and this doesn't count as ballhandling in my opinion, I always thought ballhandling doesn't mean anything but dribbling the ball. The ill-advised passes are something totally normal for Marquis' age and Finley did lose the ball 2.67 times as well in one of his first seasons in this league. His assist/turnover-ratio has become better and better over the years. It's something that you can learn, not really something that you're born with, in my opinion.

Anyways, I'm done with this discussion since we both agree on one point, as you wrote at the beginning of your last post:

Daniels is the better ballhandler but it isn't like he's a great ball handler.

And on this point as well:

At the end of the day, Daniels is the better player for the Mavs...

alby
12-20-2005, 02:37 AM
the finley talk never evds =x

TVI
12-30-2005, 03:41 PM
Another nice night for Fin:

M. Finley (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3023) 29 7-13 4-4 0-0 1 5 1 0 4 0 4 18

Another interesting note: he definitely does much better as a starter (46.5 3pfg% - yikes!):

G Min M A Pct M A Pct M A Pct Off Def Tot Ast TO Stl Blk PF PPG
12 31.8 5.0 11.2 44.8 1.7 3.6 46.5 1.4 1.7 85.0 0.4 3.5 3.9 1.4 0.9 0.8 0.2 1.8 13.1

MavsFanFinley
01-05-2006, 12:26 AM
Who was it that said Finley can't jump anymore? He dunked on Travis Outlaw again tonight. Damn near rode him like McGrady did Bradley last year. Not sure if Sportscenter will show it but it's in the highlights on the NBA page.

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/FrameSet.aspx?s=EventImagesSearchState%7c1%7c0%7c2 8%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c1%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c55994170%7c0%7c0%7 c0%7c0%7c0%7c%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0&p=2&tag=3

Dtownsfinest
01-08-2006, 02:15 PM
Damn that's nasty. I missed it. Isn't this the second time? Didn't Fin dunk on him just as nasty last year or the year before? What does he have against Travis Outlaw lol?.

dude1394
01-08-2006, 02:31 PM
Fin..definitely has a few more good years on him, but we couldn't keep him imo.

Still wished we'd have gotten a draft pick for him somewhere but no one was going to take that salary.

Dtownsfinest
01-08-2006, 03:05 PM
Yea. I'd atleast taken a 2nd round pick for him with all the magic we've done in the drafting players in latter rounds. My frustration was never losing Finley. Just going another year losing a starter and gaining nothing in return. Hopefully the cycle has ended. From here on out we will no longer lose contributors for nothing. We'll be nothing in the next 3 years if we keep doing that.


Dude, what was the whole story behind the T-Wolves and Finley situation? I was reading an article a couple of months ago after the Spurs and T-Wolves game and they brought up a deal that was going to have Finley sent to the T-Wolves and Cassell sent to the Mavs. I never heard about this during the offseason but its been brought up a couple of times this season.

dude1394
01-08-2006, 03:25 PM
Can't tell you dtown. I heard something but I'd have to research the board to find it.

dude1394
01-12-2006, 10:33 PM
Pretty typical fandom over at the spurs home tonight. First of season he's greatness, bad game against detroit and he's toilet paper.

http://www.spursreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47783

capitalcity
01-12-2006, 10:57 PM
Irony, delicious irony.

dude1394
01-12-2006, 11:00 PM
Irony, delicious irony.

True enough. Although I don't hope bad for fin, I surely hope he doesn't sniff a championship this year.

Also with all of the OH MY GOD LOOK WHAT THE SPURS HAVE DONE THIS OFFSEASON!!!

This is kinda sweet. Now hopefully mavs will kick their butt too.

Dtownsfinest
01-13-2006, 02:40 PM
Ahh that site isn't that bad. Woai.com are the ones ripping him a new a-hole lol.

alby
01-13-2006, 03:34 PM
i hope they do well but i don't want any of them to ever win a championship unless they are playing for the mavericks =]

nash
najera
van ex
fin
etc...

snoop
01-13-2006, 06:53 PM
Fin really looks like he is having a tough time this year. I hate to see that for him but I'm glad hes not at his career avgs.

Drbio
01-13-2006, 07:02 PM
Fin really looks like he is having a tough time this year. I hate to see that for him but I'm glad hes not at his career avgs.

I don't get this comment snoop. You hate to see having a tough year yet you are glad isn't doing well by playing at his averages? ;)


I've always liked Finley and I hope he has a great year....just not during the games he plays us. Although, I've always said, to be the best you should beat the best and if Finley is on a better team....let's beat him.

dude1394
01-13-2006, 08:28 PM
I must admit I hope that fin does NOT help the spurs get top seed. So I can't be happy for him to play well.

Drbio
01-13-2006, 08:36 PM
I don't understand why you can't wish Finley well and hope harder that the Mavs earn the #1 seed.

dude1394
01-13-2006, 08:43 PM
I don't understand why you can't wish Finley well and hope harder that the Mavs earn the #1 seed.

Don't think bad of me doc. I just don't think it works that way. I couldn't hope that duncan plays well also. I have to hope he doesn't play out of his mind.

Do you hate me?

Drbio
01-13-2006, 10:28 PM
LOL dude....I hope you didn't take that as harsh....I was just saying you know?

dude1394
01-13-2006, 10:44 PM
LOL dude....I hope you didn't take that as harsh....I was just saying you know?

Nah...just joshing myself.

snoop
01-17-2006, 01:06 AM
I don't get this comment snoop. You hate to see having a tough year yet you are glad isn't doing well by playing at his averages? ;)


I've always liked Finley and I hope he has a great year....just not during the games he plays us. Although, I've always said, to be the best you should beat the best and if Finley is on a better team....let's beat him.

My piont is if he is at 20ppg we would all be inagony that he is not on the mavs much less a spur. So I'm feel bad that hes not doing well but I would feel worse if he was tearing it up