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AxdemxO
12-04-2005, 01:00 PM
Not sure if this is the rite place to put this..but anyways.

I have noticed many call Kobe the best player in the game..personally i hate Kobe and i think he is the most Selfish player in the WORLD.

But tell me one thing...Kobe takes 35 shots and scores 30 points and Dirk takes 20 shots and scores 30 points plus gets like 12 rebounds and some more nice stats.

How does this make Kobe a better player than Dirk...and pleasee keep the chamionships out of the conversation....tht was mostly Shaq who by the way is doing much better on without Kobe thn Kobe is without him.

dude1394
12-04-2005, 02:30 PM
Kobe is an imposter. If the best player in the game can't get them greater than a .500 record, he's a faker...

Hey....laker.....faker...raper..... Yup...sorta fits...

aexchange
12-04-2005, 03:01 PM
is there any question that dirk is the better player than kobe? not really.

if you look at the talent between the mavericks and the lakers, the difference between the two isnt that staggering. not 20 wins worth of talent by any means.

lets assume that dirk and kobe are a push.

lakers starting lineup
smush parker/bryant/odom/kwame brown/chris mihm

mavs starting lineup
terry/daniels/jho/nowitzki/dampier

we've had no stackhouse, no christie. benches are pretty equivalent. diop and bynum are pretty equivanlent. cook and van horn are both offensive minded players who provide little else. mckie and armstrong are the grizzled vets on the bench.

i think most everyone would say that phil jackson is the better coach between AJ and pjax.

so why do the lakers suck so much butt? its because kobe single handedly shoots his team into oblivion every single game. forcing up terrible shots. not passing the ball. being just a disaster, hes absolutely pathetic. i think if you put ray allen on the lakers, they'd have a better record.

AxdemxO
12-04-2005, 03:09 PM
The reson i say all tht is because i think Dirk doesnt get any respect..Dirk is not selfish, dosnt go out there and take 40 shots every nite and by doing this his team loses.

Kobe does all tht and all those DUMB ASS commentaters say he is a better player. They think they kno everything ..especially Kenny and Charles.

dude1394
12-04-2005, 03:24 PM
Don't worry about it Ax...You probably wouldn't understand. ;->

mary
12-04-2005, 03:43 PM
Here's some info that is only slightly related to this thread (forgive me)

Last night after the game Dirk gave a Q & A session with German language students in the area. My mom's a teacher at one of the schools so I was able to attend. Ninety five percent of it was in German, but later my sister-in-law translated it for me. Most of it was normal fluffy teenager type questions but someone asked Dirk who the best player in the league was (a question I actually understood because I remembered what "spielman" meant).

His answer (in order): Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady,Shaq and Steve Nash is still his boy.

I thought it was interesting because 3 of the 4 players he named were guards, and there was no mention of either Duncan or Garnett. (not that he doesn't speak highly of both, of course.)

AxdemxO
12-04-2005, 03:48 PM
Aghhhhhhhh..Dirk... wht is he thinking...Not only is he better thn Kobe..But Garnett and TD are def. better.
I think thts just Dirk bein humble....But still dont mention Kobe first.

ohh also good thing he didnt mention LeBron....because i m sik of hearin bout LeBron and he hasnt even made the plaoffs yet.

mary
12-04-2005, 03:58 PM
Aghhhhhhhh..Dirk... wht is he thinking...Not only is he better thn Kobe..But Garnett and TD are def. better.
I think thts just Dirk bein humble....But still dont mention Kobe first.

ohh also good thing he didnt mention LeBron....because i m sik of hearin bout LeBron and he hasnt even made the plaoffs yet.


Oh yeah, actually is initial answer was something like "I am of course!", or whatever the German equivalent would be. Then he said he was just kidding :D. He's humble and he has a pretty good sense of humor.

Those kids were a total beating and he genuinely didn't seem to mind answering their mundane and silly questions.

Thespiralgoeson
12-04-2005, 06:19 PM
Dirk Nowiztki is not only my all-time favorite NBA player but my all-time favorite athlete. Kobe Bryant is my absolute least favorite athlete. That being said, I honestly believe that Kobe is the best player in the NBA.

#1MavsFan
12-04-2005, 06:58 PM
Kobe isn't nearly surrounded by as much talent as Dirk. If Kobe doesn't score 40 the Lakers basically lose since they really don't have a reliable 2nd option unlike Dallas who has plenty. This board tends to overrate Dirk quite a bit when it comes to "the best players in the NBA". Dirk is definitely a top 10 talent, maybe top 5 but he still has a lot to prove. Kobe has won championships, has taken over games in the finals, etc.

akers starting lineup
smush parker/bryant/odom/kwame brown/chris mihm

mavs starting lineup
terry/daniels/jho/nowitzki/dampier

Lets see how some of the Mavs bench players match up to the Lakers starters:
KVH (who would instantly be the #2 option for the Lakers if he was traded there)
DH (Would receive a lot of playing time)
Diop (Maybe their starting C?)


Now lets compare the Mavs starters.
Jet (would easily start on the Lakers)
Marquis (same as above, Kobe would slide over to the 3)
JHO (He'd start, no question)
Dampier (as much as some Mavs fans might think he sucks, he'd still easily start on the Lakers considering Mihm is a bit of a pushover defensively)

As much as I love Dirk, Kobe is the better player right now, and there’s no doubt the Mavs roster is much better w/o Dirk than the Lakers w/o Kobe.

dude1394
12-04-2005, 07:19 PM
Let's try this. I'll take RealGM.com rankings as my guide. If you have other rankings that are based on data you can do the same. Kwame Brown does jump out.

Smush Parker 89... Jet 61
Bryant 16.....Daniels 102
Odom 19...Josh 54
Kwame 239...Dirk 10
Mihm 135...Damp 154

Sorry...Just doesn't look that way to me. Bryant/Odom are top 20 for goodness sakes. Bryant is a cancer who can't even get that team above .500, flashy..yea, athletically talented...seems so....

Head case...oh yeah..

Murphy3
12-04-2005, 07:19 PM
Kobe should be a better NBA player, but he's not.

dude1394
12-04-2005, 07:21 PM
So should steve francis...

mavsman reloaded
12-04-2005, 07:21 PM
Well, as the efficiency ranking tells us, one is more efficient than the other, and it's not Kobe. Besides, Lamar would be a starter on the Mavs and Smush is no worse than Devin.

#1MavsFan
12-04-2005, 07:41 PM
As stated somewhere else on this board it's too early in the season to be using +/- / efficiency ratings. Odom would probably start on the Mavs but that would mean JHO would have to play out of position. Also Kobe is doubled and tripled almost every time down the court while that isn't always the case for Dirk since other teams just can't do that when KVH, Marquis, JHO, or Jet are on the court since those guys will hit shots. Do you realistically think the Lakers would even be competing in games without Kobe? I'm sure the Mavs would still be close in some games without Dirk, since they have a lot of talent outside of Dirk. Terry would be a #1 on many teams, and was before getting traded here. KVH/Marquis/JHO could be easily the #2 options on many teams. The Mavs have a lot more options than the Lakers, and that’s w/o getting past their sixth man.

I know you guys love Dirk (me2) and hate Kobe for his off the court stuff, but the fact is he is the only reason that team can even stay within 15 points of their opponents right now.

dirno2000
12-04-2005, 07:44 PM
Besides Odom for Howard, there's not one Mav I'd trade for his Laker counterpart.

Mihm is a PF who plays center because of his height. He's soft...always has been, even at UT. How else do you explain getting dominated by Stromile Swift in the NCAA's.

JT is a cold blooded killer who would punish teams for doubling Kobe...Smush Parker is one bad season away from the And-1 league.

Bynum vs Diop? They're the same player? Really? One was in high school this time last year, the other has been practicing against NBA competition for the last four years.

Keith Van Horn and Brian Cook are a wash because they're both offensive players? Never mind the fact that one (our guy) has a lot more talent and versatility.

Kobe does occasionally shoot too but if he shot less the Lakers would still lose. Somebody has to score and the rest of the team is either not willing or not able.

The Lakers major off-season acquisition was Kwame Brown and Kobe's the reason they're a .500 team?

dude1394
12-04-2005, 08:07 PM
Well you guys tell me when numbers become a better barmoeter than your opinions. Then we can re-visit this. :)

But I still don't see it, there is no reason that Odom+Kobe cannot be a .500 team imo, except that kobe is a nutcase and only shaq being the dominant personality that he is kept him in line.

dirno2000
12-04-2005, 08:27 PM
Well you guys tell me when numbers become a better barmoeter than your opinions. Then we can re-visit this. :)

But I still don't see it, there is no reason that Odom+Kobe cannot be a .500 team imo, except that kobe is a nutcase and only shaq being the dominant personality that he is kept him in line.

What numbers would you like to use because it seems to me that you're just using Real GM's opinions. I'm not familiar with their rankings, are they stats based?

dude1394
12-04-2005, 08:35 PM
Yes they are called a Tendex rating and I believe are used by many scouts to get an "more" objective ranking of players. It's not just scoring average for example. But in general it includes points, rebounds, blocks, assists, to's, etc. Usually Garnett leads the Tendex ratings...Duncan has always also been a top 5. 1-10 right now are: http://www.realgm.com/src_playerrankings.php

Garnett, Iverson, Brand, Pierce, Camby, LeBron, Duncan, Marion, Wade, Nowitzki

Here is one link that I googled
http://www.dougstats.com/Tendex.html

#1MavsFan
12-04-2005, 09:24 PM
You can't factor in the fact that Kobe is always doubled or tripled teamed while that’s not always the case for Dirk. Plus Kobe has to shoot around 30 shots no matter what since whom else would you want shooting if you're LA? The Mavs have tons of scorers that should shoot some, thus Dirk isn't always on the spot to make things happen. Also Odom seems to be overrated a bit in this thread.

aexchange
12-04-2005, 09:32 PM
You can't factor in the fact that Kobe is always doubled or tripled teamed while thatís not always the case for Dirk. Plus Kobe has to shoot around 30 shots no matter what since whom else would you want shooting if you're LA? The Mavs have tons of scorers that should shoot some, thus Dirk isn't always on the spot to make things happen. Also Odom seems to be overrated a bit in this thread.

since when has dirk never been double or triple teamed?

dude1394
12-04-2005, 09:35 PM
Again, maybe he's doubled or tripled because they know he's going to shoot it? I don't know I don't watch them. All I do know is that he and Odom should be able to get a team to 0.500 it would seem. But they cannot. Maybe it's because like Iverson he's jacking up 30 shots a game or something.

If the guy is getting doubled and even triple teamed how come his assists keep coming down.. .You ask who else should shoot it, well the guy who is open would be my answer...Let's see on the lakers team starters...who is shooting better than kobe. Kobe is at 42% it seems..

Smush Parker 48%-- Hey that's not too bad.
Odom 41%...Not nearly as good as kobe I admit.
Kwame 41%....Again not nearly up to Kobe's level.
Mihm 48%. THIS is the guy!! :)

I don't understand why you are saying the rest of the team cannnot shoot, they are ALL shooting as well or better than superstar.

#1MavsFan
12-04-2005, 09:36 PM
I didn't say “never”, but he's not doubled as much as Kobe. Teams basically commit their whole D to stopping Kobe while when playing the Mavs they have to also deal with KVH, Jet, JHO, Marquis, etc. Also I'm surprised no one has brought their defensive talents into this thread. I wonder why.

dude1394
12-04-2005, 09:39 PM
I didn't say “never”, but he's not doubled as much as Kobe. Teams basically commit their whole D to stopping Kobe while when playing the Mavs they have to also deal with KVH, Jet, JHO, Marquis, etc. Also I'm surprised no one has brought their defensive talents into this thread. I wonder why.

Actually the realgm numbers do bring his defensive talents into it in the form of steals, blocks, etc.

But don't you see an issue with a guy who is triple-teamed everytime jacking up 30 shots a game. Doesn't that seem a little...oh....what's the word I'm looking for...... self centered?

#1MavsFan
12-04-2005, 09:46 PM
Smush Parker 48%-- Hey that's not too bad.
Odom 41%...Not nearly as good as kobe I admit.
Kwame 41%....Again not nearly up to Kobe's level.
Mihm 48%. THIS is the guy!!
I'll admit Smush has shown to be a pretty good shooter so far, but he needs to be a lot more consistent. Odom brings up his shooting % by the easy shots created by Kobes penetration. Kwame, same as Odom. Mihm is basically a joke, literally, he gets a good deal of his points on put backs when no one is even close to him.

Again, maybe he's doubled or tripled because they know he's going to shoot it? I don't know I don't watch them. All I do know is that he and Odom should be able to get a team to 0.500 it would seem. But they cannot. Maybe it's because like Iverson he's jacking up 30 shots a game or something.
You should than watch him, other than just taking basically a guess. You really overrate Odom he's not that much of a difference maker. The Lakers and their opponents know for a fact that Kobe has to shoot the ball if the Lakers have a chance thus he's followed around by a group of players everywhere he goes. Also last time I checker AI was having an amazing season.

dude1394
12-04-2005, 09:55 PM
Philedelphia (8-10)... Yea about the same as the lakers. If THAT's an amazing season then they can have it.

#1MavsFan
12-04-2005, 10:01 PM
Once again, his supporting cast just isn't as strong. 34/7/3 with under 3 TO's per game while shooting over 45% is pretty amazing. Oh not to mention he’s averaging 2 steals per game with only about 1.5 pf's per game.

aexchange
12-04-2005, 10:58 PM
I didn't say “never”, but he's not doubled as much as Kobe. Teams basically commit their whole D to stopping Kobe while when playing the Mavs they have to also deal with KVH, Jet, JHO, Marquis, etc. Also I'm surprised no one has brought their defensive talents into this thread. I wonder why.

what good are defensive talents if you don't bring it for 48 minutes, or you are putting your team into a hole because of your shooting? you talk about jho, marquis, and KVH like they're individual offensive juggernauts that have to be reckoned with.

thats absolutely preposterous. jho is getting better but he isn't nearly the all around talent that odom is, in fact the discrepancy between the two is pretty damn large. marquis and kvh are two of the most overrated players in mavs history next to shawn bradley and michael finley.

are you saying that the talent difference between the two is worth 20 wins?

absolutely not.

dirno2000
12-04-2005, 11:02 PM
Dude the problem whith using shooting % as a measure of how shots should be distributed is that you're assuming Chris Mihm could maintain that % if he was asked to carry a bigger load on offense. Using that line of reasoning Damp should be leading the Mavs in fga's.

alby
12-04-2005, 11:04 PM
that is true, but you have to admit that shooting percentage is a big deal when you are taking 35 shots a game?

AxdemxO
12-04-2005, 11:11 PM
Well as far as i kno Odom is an allstar....He was a rising star before he ended up wit the Lakers...Since thn he has disappeared...Why?? because Kobe is selfish and doesnt wanna play with him...they should be .500 or better wit the team tht they got and its all Kobe's doin thts diggin thm in.

And u say he is double and triple teamed well tht means guys are open,,maybe it would b a good idea to pass once in a while instead of shooting over 3 guys..hmmmm.

#1MavsFan
12-04-2005, 11:32 PM
Odom isn't anywhere near an all-star, imo JHO is closer (Odom hasn't looked that great this year if you've watched any Lakers games). Also who do you exactly pass to?

Mihm who might or might not make the open lay-up?
Smush is either on fire or cold so he's not always an option.
Odom usually needs someone to create for him so yeah.
Kwame isn't exactly that great just ask the Wizards.
Brian Cook is basically a spare.

So that basically only leaves the all world shooting guard on the team.

BTW Dude, I'm not trying to say Marquis, JHO, and KVH are "offensive juggernauts" just that their much better options than what the Lakers have outside of Kobe.

Also I'd suggest watching a Lakers game, you'll be surprised by what you see.

AxdemxO
12-04-2005, 11:40 PM
Yea i watch every game i can because i love watchin thm lose because of Kobe. Odom is an allstar and like i said playing with Kobe..even Dirk prolly wouldnt look lika an allstar.

alby
12-05-2005, 01:31 AM
phil jackson has to take as much of the blame as anyone else IMO.

Five-ofan
12-05-2005, 02:40 AM
Jho is better than odom???? No offense but have you lost your damn mind??? Odom is better than anyone on this team but dirk. Hell before he got to LA people were saying odom was close to dirk. To be fair whoever said KVH and Cook were equal is way wrong to. KVH is MUCHHHHHH better than Cook. The mavs overall have more talent. Last year it was dang close.

Chucky atkins is dang close to being as good a shooter as Jet. Not as good a player but nearly as good a shooter. Caron is about even with Jho and quis. Hes in that range. Odom would have clearly been the mavs second best player just as he would here. Stat wise mihm is about equal with damp but damp is better. Benches favored the mavs and if it was the playoffs that would be no biggie but for regular season its does help your record. All that said the mavs were slightly better talent wise but not as much as the record indicated. Put it this way. Does anyone really think a lineup of
Atkins
Caron
Odom
Dirk
Mihm doesnt win 50 games??? I would put serious money on that team winning 50 games. Kobe is one of the most talented players in the nba. He isnt the best. Its not that close. This year, the talent gap has widened because Caron is gone and Kwame doesnt do crap. If its those too, give me dirk. Its not a tie but even if it was give me dirk. Dirk has been the best player on this team since his 3rd year. Kobe was the best player last year for the first time. It failed miserably. Switch dirk and kobe and the lakers still won the 3 titles AND they woulda beat the pistons. Thus the titles arent really a great barometer.

Five-ofan
12-05-2005, 07:22 AM
BTW when yall are talking about Odom #1 you might want to watch a game or 2. You sound like barley because its clear youve never watched him play. He creates for others. Moreso than Kobe does btw. Odom isnt a spot up shooter or something like that. He is a point forward. Why would he need someone to create for him. Go watch a lakers game before you comment on them as if you know everything about them. Also about the shooting percentages, Odom's sucks too.

aexchange
12-05-2005, 08:41 AM
odom is averaging 15 pts, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, and 1.7 steals a game.

how are those not all star numbers?

give me a damn break.

spreedom
12-05-2005, 10:35 AM
odom is averaging 15 pts, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, and 1.7 steals a game.

how are those not all star numbers?

give me a damn break.

He's doing it with Antoine Walker efficiency.. Odom shoots a terrible percentage and only accumulates the boards and assists because he dominates the ball so much and is afraid to shoot when Kobe's in the game.

aexchange
12-05-2005, 10:53 AM
He's doing it with Antoine Walker efficiency.. Odom shoots a terrible percentage and only accumulates the boards and assists because he dominates the ball so much and is afraid to shoot when Kobe's in the game.

i've watched quite a few games and i've never seen him dominate the ball. now i do grant that he is afraid to shoot with kobe in the game, but i think the reason he has the ball so much is mostly by design because they don't have any other playmakers who can create.

i think he'd dominate the ball just as much in dallas b/c he's such a versatile talent.

EricaLubarsky
12-05-2005, 11:36 AM
I just think its funy when Dirk goes 3-15 or something like that and Kobe shoots 4-20 or 6-30 or something like that. When Dirk isnt scoring the guy is timid. When Kobe isnt hitting the mark, he just keeps on shooting

Murphy3
12-05-2005, 01:32 PM
I'm not sure I really buy that timid bit. I think you could probably look at the last week as an example.

Sorry Erica, I'll have to dock you some reputation.

AxdemxO
12-05-2005, 02:33 PM
I think Kobe is effecting Odoms percentage...Odom is a better shooter thn his numbers show...i think Kobe keeps the ball and once he realizes tht he cant do much with it an dthere is 1 second left he just gives it to Odom who has to put up bad shots.

Dirk knows whn he is not shootin good ..he lets others shoot...and he tries to get to the line more...i have seen a couple of games where Dirk was 3-15 ans had like 10 ft attempts ending up with like 20 pts.

I THINK IN KOBES CASE AS LONG AS HE HIT BAKBOARD OR RIM ITS A GOOD SHOT.

alby
12-05-2005, 02:55 PM
Odom is one of the best talents in the NBA on one of the worst built teams. He is probably having his worst season as a pro.

#1MavsFan
12-05-2005, 03:21 PM
Wow Odom is starting to become the most overrated player in the NBA around here. His shooting percentage isn't that great despite taking pretty much easy shots that Kobe or Smush kick out to him by penetrating to the hole. He's missed more than his share of pretty much open 10 footers. Kobe has to create for his teammates or they won't score and even than they might not. For Kobe to do that he has to have the ball in his hands especially when there’s no one else to give the ball to. He does force quite a bit of shots but he realizes as well as Phil, the media, and the fans that he needs to if the Lakers are to have a chance in the game.

Does anyone in their right mind think the Lakers would win more games without Kobe? Thought so.

dirno2000
12-05-2005, 03:23 PM
Odom is a nice player but if you put him with Dirk and a bunch of scrubs, they wouldn't make the playoffs in the West.

I'm still trying to figure out which Mav the Kobe bashers would trade for his Laker counterpart. I'd take Odom over Josh but beyond that, theres not even a trade that I'd consider.

The problem with the Lakers is not Kobe, it's the fact that they won't take on any big contracts past the year 2007 because that's when they're clearing cap room for the big FA run.

BTW, if Dirk doesn't like the way things are going here, keep an eye out for LA as a possible destination.

AxdemxO
12-05-2005, 04:15 PM
OK HELLOOOO PEOPLE...ODOM IS A PF ...HE CREATES HIS OWN SHOTS...KOBE DOES NOT NEED TO CREATE SHOTS FOR HIM...WHICH PART OF THAT IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

TAKE KOBE OFF LAKERS AND PUT DIRK AND THE LAKER MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

BUT WHT ABOUT LAST YEAR..WHY DIDNT THEY MAKE THE PLAYOFF LAST YEAR....KOBE, BUTLER, ODOM, ATKINS...KOBE WAS BEING SELFISH.

COMPARE THEIR TALENT LAST YEAR TO THE ROX TALENT...NO DIFFERENCE....MCGRADY, YAO, AND DAMM CANT EVEN NAME ANOTHE GOOD PLAYER..YET THE ROX MADE THE PLAYOFF..HMMMMMMMMMMM.

aexchange
12-05-2005, 06:20 PM
Odom is a nice player but if you put him with Dirk and a bunch of scrubs, they wouldn't make the playoffs in the West.

I'm still trying to figure out which Mav the Kobe bashers would trade for his Laker counterpart. I'd take Odom over Josh but beyond that, theres not even a trade that I'd consider.

The problem with the Lakers is not Kobe, it's the fact that they won't take on any big contracts past the year 2007 because that's when they're clearing cap room for the big FA run.

have to respectfully disagree with you here dino. they may not make the playoffs, but they wouldn't be 20 games worse than the mavs either. i think dirk has had a positive influence on just about every person who's come thru here except for dampier. he's managed to make terry into a superstar with the constant attention that dirk draws.

he's managed to make marquis and howard very good players as well. i don't see that kind of impact with kobe on any players on the lakers other than maybe smush parker and chris mihm.

edelweiss1970
12-05-2005, 07:38 PM
Thanks for the nod Mary, but don't forget the most important question for the night from the kids, his favorite shampoo!!! But it was a great Q & A session and I enjoyed every minute of it.

#1MavsFan
12-06-2005, 12:48 AM
AxdemxO, Kobe doesn't have a player caliber of Yao or McGrady on his team so your comparison makes no sense at all.

have to respectfully disagree with you here DDH. they may not make the playoffs, but they wouldn't be 20 games worse than the mavs either. i think dirk has had a positive influence on just about every person who's come thru here except for dampier. he's managed to make terry into a superstar with the constant attention that dirk draws.

he's managed to make marquis and howard very good players as well. i don't see that kind of impact with kobe on any players on the lakers other than maybe smush parker and chris mihm.
Umm, wasn't Terry already somewhat of a star and a #1 option in Atlanta before he met Dirk? Who's to say that JHO and Marquis wouldn't be equally as good or better on the Lakers right now? Plus the coaching staff probably had something to do with their development as well. Those are some very iffy comparisons.

Five-ofan
12-06-2005, 12:50 AM
No there isnt a player the caliber of tmac on the Lakers. Odom and Yao are closer than you think. Yao is more valuable because he is a big though.

#1MavsFan
12-06-2005, 12:57 AM
OK HELLOOOO PEOPLE...ODOM IS A PF ...HE CREATES HIS OWN SHOTS...KOBE DOES NOT NEED TO CREATE SHOTS FOR HIM...WHICH PART OF THAT IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

TAKE KOBE OFF LAKERS AND PUT DIRK AND THE LAKER MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

BUT WHT ABOUT LAST YEAR..WHY DIDNT THEY MAKE THE PLAYOFF LAST YEAR....KOBE, BUTLER, ODOM, ATKINS...KOBE WAS BEING SELFISH.

COMPARE THEIR TALENT LAST YEAR TO THE ROX TALENT...NO DIFFERENCE....MCGRADY, YAO, AND DAMM CANT EVEN NAME ANOTHE GOOD PLAYER..YET THE ROX MADE THE PLAYOFF..HMMMMMMMMMMM.
Umm Kobe actually had a pretty good season last year, if I was you I'd go back and look over his stats some before you start talking about him as basically a spare.

Ha had about 28 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists per game while playing some pretty tough defense. Oh yeah, btw he show almost 44% which isn't to bad considering you are your teams offense and are constantly doubled or tripled teamed.

No there isnt a player the caliber of tmac on the Lakers. Odom and Yao are closer than you think. Yao is more valuable because he is a big though.
Again, Odom is vastly overrated around here; watch him for a few more games and than tell me what you think. He just isn't that great, plain and simple. The Rockets last year also had more weapons than Atkins and Butler outside of their big 2 believe it or not. Plus the coaching situation in LA had to have had a effect, as that situation usually does on a team.

alby
12-06-2005, 02:30 AM
I think a huge part of it is because how he is used in L.A. that is greatly holding him back as a player. He was very good on the Clippers, and led the Heat to the playoffs along with their great rookie, Wade. This guy is 6' 10" young, athletic, long, and talented. Like I said, he is being wasted away in L.A.

Five-ofan
12-06-2005, 02:44 AM
So how do you value Odom. Do you think he is a scrub? He is a top 35 player at least. He is a hell of alot better than you are giving him credit for. Again he is better than anyone but Dirk on the mavs. It was a thinly veiled shot at kobe when I said they had no one as good as Tmac on the lakers. Tmac and Kobe should cancel each other out as star swingmen. Other than that the remaining talent is very close. What weapons on the rockets are you talking about. Caron was better than the rockets 3rd best player. Bob sura? Wake up. Kobe is the opposite of what good players are supposed to do. He makes the players around him worse.

alby
12-06-2005, 03:21 AM
Like I said, I view Lamar as one of the NBA's best talents..

AxdemxO
12-06-2005, 01:15 PM
Thank u....... Five-ofan .......thts wht i am talking bout.

aexchange
12-06-2005, 02:04 PM
Umm Kobe actually had a pretty good season last year, if I was you I'd go back and look over his stats some before you start talking about him as basically a spare.

Ha had about 28 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists per game while playing some pretty tough defense. Oh yeah, btw he show almost 44% which isn't to bad considering you are your teams offense and are constantly doubled or tripled teamed.

Again, Odom is vastly overrated around here; watch him for a few more games and than tell me what you think. He just isn't that great, plain and simple. The Rockets last year also had more weapons than Atkins and Butler outside of their big 2 believe it or not. Plus the coaching situation in LA had to have had a effect, as that situation usually does on a team.

you keep telling us to watch him play and i have. in fact, i've watched about 8 of their games this year from beginning to end. have you?

last year the rockets had "i'm mike james beotch" as their third option and they acquired him near the trade deadline. other than that, they had offensive powerhouses dikembe mutumbo, jon barry, david wesley, and juwan howard powering their best version of the 2000 sacramento kings. :rolleyes:

so tell me just how the rockets had more weapons again? you keep making excuses for the lakers, citing the coaching situation last year. well, this year they have arguably the best coach in the game, yet they still stink. whats their excuse now?

better yet, whats your excuse now?

AxdemxO
12-06-2005, 02:20 PM
I agree wit all tht u just said.

AxdemxO
12-06-2005, 02:28 PM
Just to add this...as some1 said earlier Odom led a Heat team to the playoffs with a rookie Wade and a bunch of not so good role players.....Now it Kobe and Odom..how is it tht they cant make the playoffs??? Doesnt seem like its Odoms fault..So pleaseee stop wit the excuses.

dirno2000
12-06-2005, 02:47 PM
So how do you value Odom. Do you think he is a scrub? He is a top 35 player at least. He is a hell of alot better than you are giving him credit for. Again he is better than anyone but Dirk on the mavs. It was a thinly veiled shot at kobe when I said they had no one as good as Tmac on the lakers. Tmac and Kobe should cancel each other out as star swingmen. Other than that the remaining talent is very close. What weapons on the rockets are you talking about. Caron was better than the rockets 3rd best player. Bob sura? Wake up. Kobe is the opposite of what good players are supposed to do. He makes the players around him worse.

Couple of reason the Rockets comparison doesn't work

1) If you're Kobe/T-Mac and you can only have one other good player on the team, what position do you most want him to play? What position do you least want him to play?

2) I said this in the Rockets thread and I'll say it here: JVG's teams are almost always among the best in the league defensively. They play defense and let T-Mac take over in the 4th...it would work the same way if Kobe were there.

So last year T-Mac had JVG coaching and Yao and Deke guarding the rim. Kobe had a burned out Rudy T for half the year, a lame duck the rest of the year. Guarding the rim he had defensive stalwarts like Chris Mihm and Brian Cook.

That's just not as clean of a comparison as you guys are making it out to be.

snoop
12-06-2005, 03:13 PM
how can you compare dirk and kobe. they play different positions and styles of ball. dirks a better rebounder but that is in part becuase hes 7 feet tall. kobe is a better ballhandler/penatrator b/c hes smaller and faster. if you are comparing what they do for their teams I would say its a draw. both are unstopable most of the time and neither of them where valued under shaq by their respective teams, so the arugment would be better suited for dirk/kg or kobe/tmac.

#1MavsFan
12-06-2005, 04:11 PM
how can you compare dirk and kobe. they play different positions and styles of ball. dirks a better rebounder but that is in part becuase hes 7 feet tall. kobe is a better ballhandler/penatrator b/c hes smaller and faster. if you are comparing what they do for their teams I would say its a draw. both are unstopable most of the time and neither of them where valued under shaq by their respective teams, so the arugment would be better suited for dirk/kg or kobe/tmac.
There we go, great post. Also AxdemxO it was quite a bit easier to make the playoffs in the east and that Heat team also had Eddie Jones, Grant, Haslem, and a couple other notable people on it.

so tell me just how the rockets had more weapons again? you keep making excuses for the lakers, citing the coaching situation last year. well, this year they have arguably the best coach in the game, yet they still stink. whats their excuse now?
As Dirno said they were a very good defensive team and if you swap TMAC for Kobe you're left with:
Mutombo vs. Mihm (I'll take Mutombo even if he is 65)
Yao vs. Odom (Yaooo all the way.)
Sura vs. Atkins (pretty much a swap; Sura had more assists, but Atkins shot just a little better from 3 point land)
Juwan Howard vs. Brian Cook (Juwan had the better season)
Jumain Jones/Devin George vs. Mike James/Barry (Hate to break it to you but the houston lineup is better once again)

Ok lets add that up.
LA-0
Hou-4
1 Tie

Plus you add in the fact Houston had a much better team defense, which you just can't blame on Kobe considering he is a great defender.

AxdemxO
12-06-2005, 04:24 PM
First..notable does not mean good..at leats not tht seson..but if u have an explenation plese give me one cuz i m a lil confused on tht.

And i believe ur forgeting Butler who was on the Lakers last year.
Mihm
Odom
Butler
Kobe
Atkins
with George bein 6th mann and some other bench players tht was a good enough team to make the playoffs.

Houston had Yao/ Tmac Sonics had Allen/Lewis along with 1 or 2 other "notable" palyers
but they made the playoffs.

And i dont think it was the D not with the Sonics....Kobe makes players around him worse.

Hitman
12-06-2005, 04:58 PM
Erica -- I disagree that Dirk is timid when he is not hot. Maybe in the past, but definitely not now.

mavsman reloaded
12-06-2005, 05:31 PM
In 92 and 93 there were at least 8 teams with better Centers than Cartwright in the Eastern Conference alone and about as many with better Point Guards than BJ. So for a player with Kobe's aspirations, he should at least make the playoffs no matter what.

dirno2000
12-06-2005, 05:55 PM
You do realize that the next year Jordan retired and Pippen led that team to 55 wins...

#1MavsFan
12-06-2005, 05:55 PM
Than why shouldn't KG make it?

And AxdemxO, that Sonics team had much better starters and depth than the Lakers, that’s another comparison that makes little to no sense.

mavsman reloaded
12-06-2005, 06:10 PM
You do realize that the next year Jordan retired and Pippen led that team to 55 wins...
Yes, dirno, I do realize that. And on a funny note, that fact seems to answer the question you had before:
If you're Kobe/T-Mac and you can only have one other good player on the team, what position do you most want him to play? What position do you least want him to play?

Five-ofan
12-06-2005, 06:31 PM
Dirno I said earlier that while Odom is a better player than Yao, Yao is more valuable simply because of the position he plays.

dirno2000
12-06-2005, 08:15 PM
Yes, dirno, I do realize that. And on a funny note, that fact seems to answer the question you had before:

The problem with your anology is that Odom is a good player while Pippen is a Top 50 player and a hall of famer.

My point was that no matter what you think of Cartwright, Williams, Grant, BJ and that gang, they were good enough to win without Jordan...Kobe's supporting cast isn't even good enough to win with Kobe...unless you think that they'd be a playoff team without him.

dude1394
12-06-2005, 08:53 PM
Kobe and Odom should be able to have a winning record, period. Didn't an old michael jordan have a winning team? If he's the best player in the league for goodness sake, shouldn't he be able to win more than he loses.

mavsman reloaded
12-06-2005, 08:55 PM
No, the problem with my anology is that MJ made Pippen a Top 50 Player while Kobe isn't even able to make Lamar an All Star. Dirk managed to have a group of complete scrubs - none of them even close to being ready for the NBA - competing for the World Championships in 2002. All on his own. Germany finished 3rd with Dirk being the only NBA player on the roster. The US finished 6th with Finley, JONeal, Brand, Ben Wallace, Marion, Pierce and Baron Davis. Kobe isn't even able to make the playoffs with Lamar on his roster.

dirno2000
12-06-2005, 09:13 PM
Joran didn't make Pippen.

Without Jordan Pippen averaged 22 points 9 rebounds 2 assists, 3 steals and finished 3rd in MVP voting.

Dirk did a a great job in leading Germany to the silver medal in the Euros but lets be honest, there were a number of NBA players (Pau Gasol, Peja) that chose not to play.

This isn't about Dirk tough. If you'll notice, I haven't said anything in this thread to discredit him. My point is that Kobe doesn't have the supporting cast that he needs to make the playoffs. The Lakers FO has done a horrible job of adding players that compliment him because they're chasing the 2007 pipe dream.

#1MavsFan
12-06-2005, 09:13 PM
No, the problem with my anology is that MJ made Pippen a Top 50 Player while Kobe isn't even able to make Lamar an All Star. Dirk managed to have a group of complete scrubs - none of them even close to being ready for the NBA - competing for the World Championships in 2002. All on his own. Germany finished 3rd with Dirk being the only NBA player on the roster. The US finished 6th with Finley, JONeal, Brand, Ben Wallace, Marion, Pierce and Baron Davis. Kobe isn't even able to make the playoffs with Lamar on his roster.
Umm Pippen was pretty damn good without MJ, remember when MJ went on his first retirement? Pippen pretty much carried the Bulls and didn't do too bad.

Five-ofan
12-06-2005, 10:22 PM
I had this argument on dallasbasketball.com the other day. Pippen was my favorite player when I was a kid. The guy is incredibly underrated. Jordan was better but Pippen was almost as important to that team.

AxdemxO
12-06-2005, 11:12 PM
Jordan would have never won tht many chamionships without Pippen.
Pippen is very underrated and without him Jordan would not have had the success tht he did.

Ohhhhh and its hard to find palyers to compliment Kobe because there isnt any....because of the fact that he is selfish and the way he plays.

#1MavsFan
12-06-2005, 11:30 PM
Kobe doesn't have any players near the caliber of Pippen so yet again that comparison is way off base. Who do you suggest take a huge role in the Lakers Offense that isn't right now? Mihm? Devin? Kwame? Who?

AxdemxO
12-07-2005, 12:03 AM
No one now is taking a roll in the offense..because Kobe is trying to do it by himself...

Odom is just as versitiles as Pippen was..maybe not as good yet..but hes up there...So maybe if Kobe decided to paly with Odom like Jordan did wit Pippen thn there would b better results.

Five-ofan
12-07-2005, 01:48 AM
The difference between the two teams is that Pippen is the greatest defensive swingman ever. Jordan while he did take huge stretches off on D was a great defender when the time came. Rodman is the best defensive pf ever. You see where Im going with this? That was one of the great defensive teams ever. While I dont think Kobe gets the best out of his teammates the two teams simply arent comparable. The only similarities between those teams is PJ and that people think Kobe is similar to MJ when in reality they arent that similar. I think if you just take pip off the bulls teams and dont replace him with another superstar jordan would have never won a title but if they didnt have pip they would have more than likely gotten someone else.

dude1394
12-07-2005, 07:22 PM
Boy this thread wandered off. It started out as why Kobe is over-rated and why he can't get a team to the playoffs but then somehow wandered into comparing Kobe and current lakers to Jordan..

Kobe and Jordan...what a stretch, nowhere close to each other.

alby
12-08-2005, 02:59 PM
it's true, its not even close..

i've always felt that kobe was/is the closest thing to Michael, but its really not even close.

AxdemxO
12-08-2005, 06:45 PM
Yea thts tru.
IMO he is not better thn Pippen.

mavsman reloaded
12-08-2005, 07:41 PM
Dirk did a a great job in leading Germany to the silver medal in the Euros but lets be honest, there were a number of NBA players (Pau Gasol, Peja) that chose not to play.

This isn't about Dirk tough. If you'll notice, I haven't said anything in this thread to discredit him. My point is that Kobe doesn't have the supporting cast that he needs to make the playoffs. The Lakers FO has done a horrible job of adding players that compliment him because they're chasing the 2007 pipe dream.
If you go back and read my posting carefully, you'll find out that I was talking about the WC 02 and not the EC 05. In 02, Dirk and a bunch of scrubs finished 3rd while the US with a team stacked with All-Stars finished 6th. I choose this example to point out that it is indeed possible for a very good player to take a below-average team to a level it wouldn't have been dreaming of. Dirk did it, so if Kobe was even better than Dirk, as some in this thread seem to think, he shouldn't have any problems to lead the Lakers at least to the playoffs, especially with a sidekick as good as Odom.

dirno2000
12-08-2005, 09:36 PM
If you go back and read my posting carefully, you'll find out that I was talking about the WC 02 and not the EC 05. In 02, Dirk and a bunch of scrubs finished 3rd while the US with a team stacked with All-Stars finished 6th. I choose this example to point out that it is indeed possible for a very good player to take a below-average team to a level it wouldn't have been dreaming of. Dirk did it, so if Kobe was even better than Dirk, as some in this thread seem to think, he shouldn't have any problems to lead the Lakers at least to the playoffs, especially with a sidekick as good as Odom.

What do you think would have happened if, instead of a tournament that becomes single elimination after pool play, every team in the WC's had to play 82 games?

Five-ofan
12-08-2005, 10:09 PM
I love dirk. He is my favorite player and I think he is better than kobe but there are legit arguments to use for him being better than kobe and international ball isnt one of them. International ball and nba ball are so different that there is very little correlation between the two. Format is just too different.

aexchange
12-09-2005, 03:29 PM
Lang Whitaker goes postal on Kobe.

http://slamonline.com/links/11282005/

Last night I realized that Kobe Bryant is my least-favorite player in the NBA. It doesn't really have anything to do with his off-court antics as much as it does his on-court shtick, which is just sickening. You know, how he always acts like he's on camera, how he's started wearing stockings this season, how he acts like he's bigger than the game, how he refuses to be a team player. When he fouled out last night I actually cackled aloud maniacally, surprising even myself.

The thing is, he might be the most talented player in the NBA. When the Jazz were doubling him off of picks, he was somehow able to just dribble around them, like the defenders were standing still. His jump shot is beautiful, and he might be the best defensive guard in the League (when he wants to be).

Why do I hate him? Besides the reasons I floated above, the main thing that bugs me about Kobe -- or "8" as he likes to refer to himself -- is that he completely ruins the game of basketball. Basketball is a TEAM game, and one player can't win by himself, as Kobe is proving definitively this season.

He's taken at least 30 shots in 6 of his last 7 games. As they mentioned on TNT last night, Charles Barkley played something like 16 seasons in the NBA and took 30 shots in a game 3 times. And Reggie Miller never did it. Really. Even Iverson's only done it twice this season.

Meanwhile, Kobe's running around out there firing up shots like his endorsements depend on it. It works for some guys, like AI, where the Sixers were built with Iverson's offensive dominance in mind and don't run an offense built on balance. (Plus, AI is shooting 5-percent higher from the floor than Kobe and has five double-figure assist games. Kobe has none.) The rest of the Lakers don't know what to do, which is obvious watching them play. Poor Smush Parker was actually playing well last night, but he'd get the ball on the wing and Kobe would run right at him demanding the rock. Smush would give it up and get out the way, and then watch as Kobe fired up an off-balance 22-footer over a double team. Lakers fever, catch it!

When Kobe fouled out in overtime last night, the Lakers suddenly became fun to watch, with Lamar Odom, Sasha Vujacic and Smush being the key players. Sasha and Smush were especially compelling. We wouldn't know about them during most games because Kobe doesn't trust anyone other than himself to do anything. Which is why the Lakers are in last place in the Pacific Division. Oddly, the team Kobe pretended like he might sign with two years ago, the Clippers, are in first place. Go figure.

What's Phil Jackson doing about all this? Who knows? He wrote a book bashing Kobe and then came back to coach him, so I'm assuming that during games he's thinking about motorcycle trips across New Zealand or all the money he's making to coach this shell of a team. Anything to dull the pain.

It's not too late for Kobe. He's 27, got three titles. Let's say he suddenly decides to apply himself as a team player. He passes the ball, starts trying to involve his teammates. He gives interviews and is funny, he admits that he's made mistakes. Basically, he needs to give up control, the one thing he doesn't seem to be able to do without.

In a way, he reminds me of Lennie in Steinbeck's Of Mice And Men. The Lakers are Kobe's puppy, and he loves to pet it. It's his, it does anything he asks it to do, and he loves having one of his very own. Only he can't stop petting it, and he keeps on and keeps on and then, all of a sudden, he realizes he crushed the sad thing and killed it.

The Lakers are on life support right now. Let's see if Kobe keeps on petting or decides to be nice and play with everyone else.

(By the way, want to know an interesting thing about watching Kobe in HD? His hairline is mad receding. He's clinging to it, though, trying to keep a tight front. I'll give him two years before he goes with the completely shaved look.)

AxdemxO
12-09-2005, 04:14 PM
I agree with you.
Kobe has talent but the thing is..basketabll is a TEAM GAME and he just messes it up.

dude1394
12-09-2005, 06:39 PM
It's too late for kobe, leopards don't change their spots. It was a constant battle with shaq when it was obvious who was the big dog on the team and he couldn't stand it so he blew it up.

He's a punk prima-donna.. I feel sorry for his team-mates having to put up with him. Phil Jackzen better quit now before his own carefully cultivated record is tarnished.