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jthig32
01-10-2006, 03:36 PM
I have to say I agree with this:


By Bill Simmons
Page 2



Editor's note: This article appears in the January 16 issue of ESPN The Magazine.


In the same month the kid from A Bronx Tale, Lillo Brancato Jr., was arrested in real life for his involvement in a shooting, Kobe Bryant willingly passed up a chance at history. Trust me, the two events are related.


To understand Kobe's misguided choice, let's first retrace the disappointing arc of his career. Once projected as MJ's successor, the wheels came spinning off after Kobe's ego intervened. A power struggle with Shaq, legal troubles, some memorably selfish play ... Kobe's downward spiral was the basketball version of Tony Montana's in Scarface. And using his contract leverage to orchestrate Shaq's departure was his "Tony shot Manny!" moment. There was no going back.


Now he's stuck in his prime trying to carry a crummy team, which makes it easy to see he isn't the next Jordan, if only because he lacks the galvanizing effect on teammates that MJ had. Kobe doesn't seem any different than T-Mac, Allen Iverson or even Gilbert Arenas -- just another talented scorer who gives his franchise credibility but can't make his teammates better. That's what he is. Nothing more.


Which brings us to the 62-point game. Kobe had the optimum opponent (none of the Mavs could guard him), optimum referees (he was getting every call), optimum conditions (he was feeling it) and the optimum venue (the Staples Center). He could have scored 80, and no one besides Wilt has ever topped 73. But when Phil Jackson asked if Kobe wanted to keep on playing in the blowout, he shook his head no. He was done. Apparently, he thought that passing up a chance at immortality would prove he was a good guy.


Um ... isn't this the same league in which everyone pounds his chest after a three-pointer? Suddenly, he's worried about showing up his opponents? Forget the sportsmanship nonsense. If you don't grab the chance for a killer moment, you're a wimp. Do you really think the Mavs would have been offended? You'd hope that they'd have taken Kobe's quest as a collective challenge and killed themselves trying to stop him.


More important, there's a larger issue at stake here. Larry Bird was one of the most unselfish players ever, but during his 60-point game, not only did he keep gunning after the game was decided, his teammates fouled Atlanta players to get the ball back for him. And the Hawks understood. Heck, some of them celebrated on the bench after Bird swished a remarkable 35-footer as he was falling out of bounds. Larry wanted to break the Celtics' scoring record and it was a relatively meaningless game, so he went for it. And guess what? ESPN Classic shows the game all the time.


Another example: on the final day of the 1978 season, David Thompson dropped 73 in an attempt to win the scoring title. (He didn't, but that's not the point.) Although I've never seen a tape of the game, I'm guessing he hogged the ball; the guy scored 53 points in the first half alone. Surely the game was compromised to some degree. Who cares? The dude scored 53 in one half! You think his opponents were offended at halftime? It's more likely they were saying, "Holy crap, the guy just dropped 53 on us. If we have any semblance of pride, we have to start guarding him."


Now, Thompson's game will endure long after everyone forgets about Kobe's blown chance. Fifty years from now, nobody will care that Kobe refused to reenter a blowout or that he did the "right thing." They would have cared about 80.


See, sports isn't only about winning and losing. It's also about the little challenges along the way. Kobe's chance to break the non-Wilt record transcended victory or even a little character rehab. After three quarters, he'd outscored the Mavs by himself, something nobody ever remembers happening before. To throw your hands up, high-five your teammates and say, "That's it, that's enough" doesn't just cheat the fans who are at the game, it cheats everyone who loves basketball and spends their evenings flicking channels, waiting to stumble across a lightning-in-a-bottle moment. The outcome was decided, but the story line wasn't. Kobe took the easy way out. And in doing so, it was just one more manifestation of what has gone wrong with his career. He should have been the next MJ, should have broken the non-Wilt record, should have been the defining player of his generation. Instead, he's another couldashouldawoulda guy.

Maybe it all happened too soon for him. Maybe he wasn't emotionally equipped to deal with success beyond a certain degree. The 62-point game will forever suggest as much. And as the dad warned his kid in A Bronx Tale, "The saddest thing in life is wasted talent."

WayOutWest
01-10-2006, 04:45 PM
That guy is a moron. I guess anyone can write for sports today.

Kobe would be taking a bigger risk going back into the game, as bad as the Lakers are now, without Kobe they'd be lucky to win 20 games.

I guarantee you that if Kobe had gone back into a game that was clearly OVER just to try and snag a scoring footnote, hundreds of writers would be spouting stories of how selfish and self center Kobe was for doing that. At least this way he only had on idiot spouting nonsense.

jthig32
01-10-2006, 06:46 PM
I'm not sure if you're familiar with Simmons or not, but he's pretty much THE pop culture/sports columnist of this generation. He has an insane following. That's just in response to your "anyone can write" comment.

As to the argument, I agree some of the media would have panned it, but that's mainly due to Kobe already poor reputation. I don't like Kobe at all myself, but I was disappointed to see him not go for 80 myself, even against the Mavs.

To your point, how many people came out against David Robinson when he put up something like 72 the last game of the season in order to win the scoring title? That was an ENTIRE GAME that meant nothing to either team, and their entire offensive gameplans was to let Robinson shoot every possession. Anyone come down on him for that? Anyone remember him as a sorry guy? No. He had a chance to give himself an historical footnote and he took it.

I completely agree with this article.

dude1394
01-10-2006, 07:04 PM
They would only say he was selfish and self-centered because he is a rapist.

WayOutWest
01-10-2006, 07:29 PM
They would only say he was selfish and self-centered because he is a rapist.

When it comes to the Mavs, I agree, Kobe is a rapist. No matter what the Mavs say or do Kobe still has his way with them. Bastard!

Drbio
01-10-2006, 10:04 PM
Typical showbe apologist response. Ignore the fact that kobe is a piece of trash rapist and make some incredibly gay (and equally incredibly weak ass) comeback.

Why do you even come here anymore WOW. You used to talk hoops.....now it is only junk.

dirno2000
01-10-2006, 10:11 PM
Kobe has his character flaws but I doubt he's a rapist.

Good point Jthig, either they like you or they don't.

As a Mavs fan I'm glad he showed a little mercy...if he were playing anybody else I would have been rooting for 80 myself.

Big Boy Laroux
01-11-2006, 12:17 PM
this is the key line of the entire article (and jthig, i love sports guy. don't know if i'm in his inasne following or not :) ):

"Apparently, he thought that passing up a chance at immortality would prove he was a good guy. "

there is no doubt in my mind that this was the reason kobe sat. hoping the masses would say, "hey, this guy is humble. let's like him again." doesn't work that way.

jthig32
01-11-2006, 12:25 PM
this is the key line of the entire article (and jthig, i love sports guy. don't know if i'm in his inasne following or not :) ):

Me too. Best part of being an Insider is being able to read his Archives.

"Apparently, he thought that passing up a chance at immortality would prove he was a good guy. "

there is no doubt in my mind that this was the reason kobe sat. hoping the masses would say, "hey, this guy is humble. let's like him again." doesn't work that way.

I agree completely. That HAD to be the motivation, mainly because the decision itself went completely against what Kobe is about, which is making a name for himself, making history, etc.

Rhylan
01-11-2006, 12:27 PM
Very good point about the double standard with David Robinson, jthig. I didn't like what Robinson did when he did it, so I agree to an extent. I also would've just as soon watched Kobe go for 80 points.

However, Kobe would've caught some flack, probably undeserved for that particular moment, but totally deserved for a career of prickishness.

WayOutWest
01-11-2006, 01:06 PM
Typical showbe apologist response. Ignore the fact that kobe is a piece of trash rapist and make some incredibly gay (and equally incredibly weak ass) comeback.

Why do you even come here anymore WOW. You used to talk hoops.....now it is only junk.

Look at the junk I'm responding to, what would you expect.

I talk plenty of bball when bball is the topic. When it's just mindless trash talk I'll respond in kind if I feel like it.

V2M
01-11-2006, 05:15 PM
Records have value only when they are attained in the context of winning the game. Once the game is won and you still play on for personal records, that's just silly & unsportsmanly. Records achieved that way always come with an asterisk.

Moreover, what if Kobe got injured playing for the record after the game was won?! He'd be called not just selfish and egotistical but incredibly stupid as well.

spreedom
01-12-2006, 02:02 PM
I'm not sure if you're familiar with Simmons or not, but he's pretty much THE pop culture/sports columnist of this generation. He has an insane following. That's just in response to your "anyone can write" comment.


So you're saying that just because he's famous, his opinion means more than anyone else's?

Why would Kobe come back in and play if the game was already won? The move makes ZERO sense when he's on a team that's in the playoff hunt. He gets hurt and misses 10 games.. the Lakers are AUTOMATICALLY eliminated from playoff contention.

jthig32
01-12-2006, 02:51 PM
So you're saying that just because he's famous, his opinion means more than anyone else's?

I clearly did not say anything of the sort. I was simply responding to WayOutWest's intimation that "they let anyone write about sports nowadays." I was simply pointing out that the columnist was, in fact, a well respected and popular sports/pop culture writer, so writing it off as some idiot with a press pass doesn't hold much water.

That argument about not wanting to get hurt is ridiculous. By that logic all starters should be pulled IMMEDIATELY after the coach feels the lead is in hand. That's not how it works.

Drbio
01-12-2006, 03:24 PM
Kobe has his character flaws but I doubt he's a rapist.


That's just intentional ignorance. You can ignore the facts until the cows come home, but a rapist he is.

dirno2000
01-12-2006, 03:31 PM
That's just intentional ignorance. You can ignore the facts until the cows come home, but a rapist he is.

Only two people really know what happened but based on the evidence and information that was made public I really don't think he did it.

The DA had more information than you or I and they didn't go through with the case. What makes you so sure?

It's amazing how you can throw out a word like ignorance when you're not even close to an expert on this subjet matter.

If you are then educate me...show me the "facts" that I'm ignoring.

EricaLubarsky
01-12-2006, 06:24 PM
I thought the woman pulled out, not the DA?

dirno2000
01-12-2006, 06:40 PM
I thought the woman pulled out, not the DA?.

The woman pulled out but [and KG can correct me if I'm wrong on this] the DA had to option to force here to testify and I imagine that if they had a strong case they would have. It happens in domestic abuse cases. When you consider the time, money and other resources that they had invested, it was a huge embarassment to have to drop the case the day before it was supposed to go to trail.

dude1394
01-12-2006, 07:18 PM
Yea kobe is such a sterling individual and beloved by everyone (except anyone that works with him) that surely he couldn't be a rapist.

But we quibble, I think he's a rapist, you don't, fine. I think OJSimpson nearly cut the heads off of two people but other don't.

Drbio
01-12-2006, 09:42 PM
.

The woman pulled out but [and KG can correct me if I'm wrong on this] the DA had to option to force here to testify and I imagine that if they had a strong case they would have. It happens in domestic abuse cases. When you consider the time, money and other resources that they had invested, it was a huge embarassment to have to drop the case the day before it was supposed to go to trail.


They didn't proceed because showbe the rapist paid her off. A settlement was made and part of the agreement was a confidentiality clause. There is no doubt he raped her. When a woman says no...Stop. Right there, right then......I don't care how close you are or anything else. No means no. Period.

dirno2000
01-12-2006, 10:15 PM
She could have gone through with the trial, put the man who raped her behind bars, then hit his bank account with a civil suit. Not the mention the blow to his reputation a crying victim on the stand would have been. Rape is the most heinous crime one can commit and if you go that far with a case, you need to put the rapist behind bars.

Instead she took the case all the way to trial before deciding that she didn't want to testify and accelerated the civil case. In essence she made the people who believed her to the point that they were willing to put their reputations on the line (the DA's office) look like fools.

He paid her off to get out of the civil trail but that was a business decision. The sooner he gets the case out of the papers, the sooner he can get to the business of restoring his image and this his endorsements. We’re seeing proof of that now as Nike has announced that they’re reinstating his shoe and apparel line.

If you think he raped her fine, that’s your opinion. But for you to accuse me of ignorantly ignoring the facts despite the fact that you can’t produce one fact to prove that he did it reeks of what you’re accusing me of.

I would expect better from the resident educator and PhD but I’ve been here a minute so I know how your act works.

chumdawg
01-13-2006, 02:29 AM
I actually thought it was more cocky of Kobe NOT to go for 80 than it would have been for him to play on. It was almost as if he was saying that the Mavs weren't worthy of competing against his talents.

He knew exactly what he was doing when he sat out. And he probably took the easy way out. Can you imagine the pressure he would have felt if he had 70 with half a quarter to go? The crowd was already clamoring for him to do something spectacular every time he had the ball.

I also think it's incredibly naive to label Kobe flat-out as a rapist. The way we understand that action doesn't remotely compare to what evidently happened. (And those who call him a rapist know that.) If you want to call him a date-rapist then you might have a leg to stand on...but that doesn't make him look nearly so bad, now does it?

I guess I'm just bothered by the dehumanization a lot of people put on pro athletes. On some level, they are just like the rest of us. But their foibles seem to criminalize them a lot more than they'd criminalize us common folk.

Thespiralgoeson
01-13-2006, 04:35 AM
If you want to call him a date-rapist then you might have a leg to stand on...but that doesn't make him look nearly so bad, now does it?

Funny stuff, Chum. I of course don't have the facts, so I won't say he's a rapist. He IS, however, an adulturer.

WayOutWest
01-13-2006, 09:23 AM
Funny stuff, Chum. I of course don't have the facts, so I won't say he's a rapist. He IS, however, an adulturer.

Agreed, there is no doubt about that but as far a labeling him a rapist that's just BS.

There is a difference between keeping a player in the game with a few minutes to go with a small lead, the Lakers had a huge lead with an entire quarter to go, there was NO reason for Kobe to stay in the game. There are plenty of examples of coaches resting their players when the game has been decided, even in the playoffs, there was very little chance that Mavs were going to come back, if the Mavs did make a run you can bet Kobe would have been back in the game. It's stupid to try and give Kobe greif for not playing in a game that was clearly over when the Lakers are struggling for a shot at the playoffs this year.

Drbio
01-13-2006, 09:36 AM
Kobe = rapist. period. No matter what drivel anyone comes up with it will not change this fact.

dirno's weak ass woman hating version above is inaccurate. She did EXACTLY what most victims do. The mental anguish this young woman would have gone through in a trial is more than any normal person can handle. It is pathetic what showbe the rapist's legal team put this woman through to show her what they planned to do to her in trial.

kobe bryant is piece of shit rapist. period.

WayOutWest
01-13-2006, 10:07 AM
Kobe = rapist. period. No matter what drivel anyone comes up with it will not change this fact.

kobe bryant is piece of shit rapist. period.

You post like it's a fact, it's not. Unless you were there you don't know anymore than anyone else with an opinion. Only Kobe and the girl know what happened. IMO Kobe made the same mistake of adultry that most NBA players make. Jordan, Dr. J, etc... have all gone down that path and had it blow up in their faces as well.

Drbio
01-13-2006, 10:12 AM
/drivel


WOW...I understand the opinion angle....I do, but I also know for a fact what women go through in rape crisis. This young woman was a textbook case of why women don't report rape. It is because they are made out to look like the instigator, they are belittled, embarrassed, etc. Cases that proceed as far as this one did most often settle. Those that do not are 100% of the time traumatic for the victim. It takes a very special woman to go the distance and get rapists off the streets. In this case there is no doubt to anyone who has worked in this area as a volunteer, a police officer, an attorney, or wiht common sense, that he is a rapist.

dirno2000
01-13-2006, 10:41 AM
dirno's weak ass woman hating version above is inaccurate. She did EXACTLY what most victims do. The mental anguish this young woman would have gone through in a trial is more than any normal person can handle. It is pathetic what showbe the rapist's legal team put this woman through to show her what they planned to do to her in trial.

First of all you’re not the only person who knows or has been close to a rape victim so you can get off your high horse. I think rape is the most degrading crime that there is and have sympathy for anyone that’s had to go through the ordeal.

Like I said, I really could care less what you think but for you to accuse someone of ignorantly ignoring the facts when you yourself don't have facts to back up your contention shows your ignorance.

Most people can say "I disagree and here's why" but that would require you to put a little thought into your opinion. It's a lot earlier to hurl insults, speak in absolutes and call anyone who dares to disagree with you an idiot.

Drbio
01-13-2006, 10:58 AM
Aw....I offended poor wittle dirno. Piss off. I could give a rats ass about you being wrong here.

dirno2000
01-13-2006, 04:37 PM
Doc you're the biggest phony on this board. Let's look at a couple of your comments in this thread.

I don't care how close you are or anything else. No means no. Period.

dirno's weak ass woman hating version above is inaccurate. She did EXACTLY what most victims do. The mental anguish this young woman would have gone through in a trial is more than any normal person can handle.


I do, but I also know for a fact what women go through in rape crisis. This young woman was a textbook case of why women don't report rape. It is because they are made out to look like the instigator, they are belittled, embarrassed, etc. Cases that proceed as far as this one did most often settle. Those that do not are 100% of the time traumatic for the victim. It takes a very special woman to go the distance and get rapists off the streets. In this case there is no doubt to anyone who has worked in this area as a volunteer, a police officer, an attorney, or wiht common sense, that he is a rapist.

You’ve gone out of your way to paint yourself as the man that’s sensitive to rape victims...talk about trying to cloak yourself in a bullet proof cape. “I’m against rape and if you think Kobe’s innocent you’re a woman hater who’s in favor of rape”. Nice try.

Now lets look at a couple of your comments from the Lakers Gameday thread last month.
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23758&page=12&highlight=lakers

I just heard on Fox Sports SW report that the Los Angeles County Hotel Workers Association has sent home all their members. Said Ben Dover, Director, "We just can't risk keeping our personnel in place after a night like this for Showbe the drama puss. He will be out trolling harder than laker fans on the Mavs boards tonight." The LA County Sherrff has called in all reserves to work hotel entrances throughout the night.


The line of this thread was the crack about us playing like hotel workers.

So the way I see it, one of two things is true:

1) You really don't believe that Kobe raped her you just don't like him and it's a lot easier if you think he's a rapist.

or

2) You do believe that he raped her but you still think it's funny to joke about the incident.

So which is it “Dr”?

Drbio
01-13-2006, 06:37 PM
I think I will choose 3 which says dirno insists on being a total dick.

You are right that I do not like showbe. You are also right to infer that I am VERY sensitive to women who have been raped. You however appear not to be but that is another story. You are quick to dimiss a victim of rape and deny the fact that she has behaved like a textbook rape victim. You try to inflame and misdirect but it doesn't work.

As for the joke, you may perceive it to be in bad taste....others maybe not. It hardly invalidates the fact that this poor woman was raped by showbe. Additionally it does not affect in any form or fashion my views on the criminal act.

*yawn*

More weak ass attempt at starting an argument. Not biting because quite frankly I don't want to argue with a less intelligent piece of meaningless poo. Now here comes more dirno "I thought so" weak ass attempt to reignite a fire which won't light.


Get over yourself dirno. You can be wrong without being a dick. Oops...maybe not.

Drbio
01-13-2006, 06:39 PM
Aw....I offended poor wittle dirno. Piss off. I could give a rats ass about you being wrong here.


'nuff said.

snoop
01-13-2006, 06:50 PM
I'm not sure if you're familiar with Simmons or not, but he's pretty much THE pop culture/sports columnist of this generation. He has an insane following. That's just in response to your "anyone can write" comment.

The new kids on the block were the pop culture icons of their day, and their following was insane, and much like Simmons articles their work was shit.

dirno2000
01-14-2006, 12:39 AM
I think I will choose 3 which says dirno insists on being a total dick.

There couldn't have been a more predictable response.

MFFL didn't post on this board for six months because you were being an ass about the KVH trade but I'm the dick. It’s obvious that you're calling me a dick because I exposed you for the phony that you are. In what world is joking about a rape that you're sure occurred not in bad taste?

dirno2000
01-14-2006, 02:00 AM
'nuff said.

Isn't the internet a great place doc...you can be whatever you want to be. An educator (hell, why not give yourself a couple of doctorates), a respected member of a community because you post a lot, even an internet thug who can say whatever he wants in the protection of his home. When was the last time you called someone a dick (or as bitch as you called Bayliss the other night) face to face…I’m guessing never.

You can argue with college kids and urge everyone to neg them (like that matters). Are you in high school?

You can questions peoples intelligence despite the fact that you sound downright ignorant at times.

And of course you can pretend to be sympathetic to rape victims because nobody will remember how funny you found the rape last month.

Yep…you must really think you’ve found your Utopia.

Drbio
01-14-2006, 12:11 PM
Typically dirno ignorant dickheadedness. Very predictable...(as stated above).

WayOutWest
01-14-2006, 04:52 PM
Typically dirno ignorant dickheadedness. Very predictable...(as stated above).

LOL! Such a child, you get your arse handed to you in the debate so you stick your fingers in your ears and start screaming la la la....

dirno, don't bother, he can't back up his stance with any facts or logic. Just ignore the fool.

Drbio
01-14-2006, 05:10 PM
*yawn*

It's pretty obvious you both sympathize with a known rapist. Pretty disgusting too. There hasn't been anything to respond to. It's like me asking you two dumbasses:

1. Are you a rapist sympathizer?
2. Do you just hate women?

Which one is it?

I mean...it's pretty obvious in this scenario that you are both 1 and 2 but there is no fair choice for anyone else. I expect shit and drivel from a trolling laker fan, but dirno knows better. I can't help it if he insists on being wrong or a dick, so I try to avoid him but he loves to pull my chain so I guess I will just point out each time he's been a dick and move on. As for the laker troll....it has long been established that there are no classy laker fans so why bother?