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Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 10:52 AM
I just thought I would ask the board this question. There is a lot of hate for various guys around the NBA that are very gifted, so I wanted to post a PUBLIC poll that would allow you to choose who you think is the best overall player in the NBA.

This takes EVERYTHING into account... Scoring, passing, rebounding, defense, clutch ability, etc... Keep in mind that there are only 10 options for me to pick from, so the 10th will be other, (in which case you can elaborate below). Some guys you think might should be included will be left out - deal with it...

sixeightmkw
05-03-2006, 11:03 AM
I have to go with Dirk just becasue he is the most effiecient player in the NBA, he is a good rebounder, he gets blocks occasionally, he is becoming a much better passer, his assists are going up, he is very humble, he is very team oriented, he knows his place on the team, he knows what his role is. He is certainly in his prime right now and getting better by the day. He has begun to prove how he can lift his game and his team on his back in the playoffs. He is not flashy like many others and he doesn't have to be in the spotlight all the time. He gives plenty of credit where credit is deserved.
Lebron is quickly getting there and will be the best all around player here very quickly. But right now I have to go with Dirk.

Drbio
05-03-2006, 11:30 AM
I'm with 6-8 here. I know you want to see some love for koberapist and you will probably see some (and with no argument from me)...he is a damn fine player.

One question though...why is Shaq on this list?

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 11:40 AM
Doc... I thought long and hard about this, but I actually think that LeBron is the best. Why? He is nearly as efficient as Dirk is with a rather average cast of players, he is arguably unstoppable, (if you do manage to D him up enough to make him travel, he will be so quick and strong the refs won't even see it), he is a great rebounder, a tremendous passer, average defensively, and he is starting to become very clutch. This guy is twanky one too... I don't think anyone takes this spot from him for the next 10-12 years.

With that said, if I didn't pick LeBron, yes Doc, I would have picked Kobe. He is unbelievable ON THE COURT and I think people should recognize that. It really is too bad. If he played on any team other than LA and didn't have the Shaq issues and the rape allegations, he would be rivaling Jordan's career right now. It really is too bad, but I guess he did the majority of it to himself. I guess I just like guys like him... He is a lot like Jordan and I LOVED watching Jordan. He NEVER quits and has another level that guys can't match. I know he isn't winning much now and that isn't like Jordan, and you could say that he only won earlier because of Shaq but I don't buy that.

I don't know, I guess I just miss the hell out of Jordan and he is the closest thing to him right now... No, he is no saint off the court, but I am talking on the court here!

madape
05-03-2006, 11:45 AM
Kobe is the best basketball player on the planet (and I hate him for it)

sixeightmkw
05-03-2006, 11:46 AM
but you did say this takes into account EVERYTHING. Off the court has to be included.

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 11:47 AM
Regarding Shaq, he is still the most dominating center in the league and that still means something. I know he is old, slow, on one leg, and laying eggs in the playoffs, but he is still the best and can still go out and get you 35 and 15 if he was motivated enough.

To be honest though, I only included him because there was no one else really worthy... Who else? Pierce, Arenas, Anthony, Billups, Carter, Jermaine, Artest, Allen, AK47???

To be honest, the only person I left off and felt guilty for it was AI.

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 11:49 AM
but you did say this takes into account EVERYTHING. Off the court has to be included.

Fine 68... I meant EVERYTHING basketball related, but to suit you, you can take it like that. I tried to be as specific as I could, but I guess that "etc..." did you in!

orangedays
05-03-2006, 11:55 AM
I voted for LeBron on the rationale that if I were the owner of an NBA team and was given the pick of the litter for who I would start and build my team around, I would choose him.

His talent is undeniable. Efficient offensive player who isn't a volume shooter and who passes the ball without forcing it. By no means a lockdown defender but I would say that he's 'adequate' (in that he does nothing to bring the team down in that area) and his rare combination of size and athleticism help to offset his defensive deficiencies.

LeBron's image is akin to Kobe's prior to the rape incident, except he's seen as a nicer guy. He is highly marketable and will make tons of money for any owner lucky enough to grab him.

I'm sure other things factor in subconsciously but that's it for now.

orangedays
05-03-2006, 11:59 AM
To be honest though, I only included him because there was no one else really worthy... Who else? Pierce, Arenas, Anthony, Billups, Carter, Jermaine, Artest, Allen, AK47???

What about Yao? 26 years old and still has upside. Put up 22.3 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 1.7 bpg, shoots 52% from the floor and is a big man who can hit FTs at 85%.

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 12:05 PM
What about Yao? 26 years old and still has upside. Put up 22.3 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 1.7 bpg, shoots 52% from the floor and is a big man who can hit FTs at 85%.

Yeah, but come on... He isn't even the best player on his team, (and sure, that could be argued, but I would love to take that argument on)...

I just can't put Yao in over Shaq... Not even at this stage of each of their careers. Maybe in a year or two IF Yao becomes the player he was becoming before his injury this past year, but that is a big IF. He was frankly an underachiever before this past year, (a guy that big and strong should be DOMINATING this league, and only last year did he show traces of that).

I guess I just need to see more absolute dominance out of him before I personally would include him. I know he is your man and everything, but I am just trying to be honest.

orangedays
05-03-2006, 12:08 PM
Yeah, but come on... He isn't even the best player on his team, (and sure, that could be argued, but I would love to take that argument on)...

I just can't put Yao in over Shaq... Not even at this stage of each of their careers. Maybe in a year or two IF Yao becomes the player he was becoming before his injury this past year, but that is a big IF. He was frankly an underachiever before this past year, (a guy that big and strong should be DOMINATING this league, and only last year did he show traces of that).

I guess I just need to see more absolute dominance out of him before I personally would include him. I know he is your man and everything, but I am just trying to be honest.

His performance has been disappointing for a long time. You don't know how happy I was to see him finally sack up (though I'd certainly like to hang my hat on that toe injury). We will monitor his progress in the next year or so and if he continues to improve then I will lobby, at such time as is appropriate, for my man Yao's inclusion :).

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 12:13 PM
Sounds fair Orange... If Yao can put up those March numbers for a full year, I think I will be a lot more worried about him stealing another MVP trophy from my man Dirk rather than being in a top 10 list.

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 12:15 PM
I would like to hear everyone's argument though for the player they select... As much as I love him and would never want to trade him for either, (though as a GM you would likely have to), I just don't know how you can select Dirk with a straight face over LeBron or Kobe.

Please, give all of the arguments you can... I am not saying I am right, I just don't see it.

Some Guy
05-03-2006, 12:23 PM
I chose Kobe, even though I really dislike him. I think Lebron will pass him up, but he's not there yet.

sixeightmkw
05-03-2006, 12:26 PM
Dirk:

#1 in Player efficiency
#3 in offensive rating
#2 player wins behind Lebron
#1 in Win Shares

These are the stats that count. The ones that determine if a team wins or loses. Yes Lebron and Kobe get alot of points, and they shoot alot of shots, and Lebron creates for his team, but when you look at it, Lebron is the only option on their team. Then you can see that on the usage rating, Lebron is4th behind Kobe, AI, Wade, you get the idea,. Lebron hsa to be used all the time cause again, he is the only option. Dirk doesn't have to be used all the time and yet he still produces for his team at the highest level. So of course Lebron has to score. Lebron is on 2 lists. Dirk is top 3 in all of them. Check them out.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html

grndmstr_c
05-03-2006, 12:30 PM
I voted Dirk for three reasons: 1) he has been the best player in the league since the playoffs started, 2) he was as worthy of the MVP this season (and the last) as anyone, IMO and 3) I'm a Mavs fan. I'm not an idiot, though, and I'm well aware that there are outstanding arguments that can be made for other guys. I just don't believe there's a clear choice that can be made right now, so when pressed, I'm going with my guy,

To further clarify my position, if the question was: "who should be the best player?", I'd say Kobe. Best combination of talent and experience in the game today, but I really believe his approach to life and the game of basketball hold him back from being more than one of a handful of guys who belong in the debate.

On the other hand, if the question was: "who will be the best player?", I'd say LeBron. His raw potential is arguably unequaled in the history of sports, and to be doing what he's doing at his age is just crazy.

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 12:42 PM
Dirk:

#1 in Player efficiency
#3 in offensive rating
#2 player wins behind Lebron
#1 in Win Shares

These are the stats that count. The ones that determine if a team wins or loses. Yes Lebron and Kobe get alot of points, and they shoot alot of shots, and Lebron creates for his team, but when you look at it, Lebron is the only option on their team. Then you can see that on the usage rating, Lebron is4th behind Kobe, AI, Wade, you get the idea,. Lebron hsa to be used all the time cause again, he is the only option. Dirk doesn't have to be used all the time and yet he still produces for his team at the highest level. So of course Lebron has to score. Lebron is on 2 lists. Dirk is top 3 in all of them. Check them out.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html

68... So much of that has to do with the players around Dirk though. Surely you can't argue that Terry, Stackhouse, Daniels, Dampier, Diop, Howard, Harris, etc... are less talented than Kobe or LeBron's help. We have a GREAT team with a GREAT superstar. Kobe and LeBron are GREAT superstars but have only DECENT teams. That just can NOT be overlooked when factoring in some of those stats. When you don't absolutely have to force everything yourself, you can be a great deal more efficient. When you have the better team, you will have more overall victories. Sure give him the Winshares, but I am just saying...

Again, (and I feel like I have to keep saying this because I might be coming off as knocking Dirk and giving love to these other guys), I love Dirk and his game, but we need to step back and look at the facts too. I think Dirk deserved the MVP because we did have more wins, and he had great stats that rivaled these other guys; however, I am not so gullable as to believe that if you put Kobe or LeBron on our team minus Dirk that they couldn't have taken this team to as many wins, (or just maybe more).

sixeightmkw
05-03-2006, 12:58 PM
And I am sure if we put Dirk on the Lakers or Cavs he scores 35 a game and shoots tons of lsat second jumpers cause he would be there only offensive weapon and gets more praise. Lebron and Kobe are not even in the top 5 in offensive rating. You would think being the best in the league, you would at least be in the top 5.

orangedays
05-03-2006, 01:00 PM
And I am sure if we put Dirk on the Lakers or Cavs he scores 35 a game and shoots tons of lsat second jumpers cause he would be there only offensive weapon and gets more praise. Lebron and Kobe are not even in the top 5 in offensive rating. You would think being the best in the league, you would at least be in the top 5.

To be fair, do you think Dirk would still be in the top 5 if he was, "their only offensive weapon" and had to, "shoot tons of last second jumpers"?

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 01:09 PM
To be fair, do you think Dirk would still be in the top 5 if he was, "their only offensive weapon" and had to, "shoot tons of last second jumpers"?

You beat me to it... Sorry, I was making lunch! :)

bernardos70
05-03-2006, 01:16 PM
Kobe is it. He's the best when you balance offense and defense. Doesn't make him any less of an a-hole, but there it is.

Murphy3
05-03-2006, 03:09 PM
Here's a better question...Who's the best combination of when it comes to being the most valuable player AND being the best player?

As for "who's the best player?"... I don't know. I'd like to wait a few weeks to decide.... see who steps it up in the playoffs... see who folds..

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 03:10 PM
Here's a better question...Who's the best combination of when it comes to being the most valuable player AND being the best player?

Well, then my answer changes to Dirk, as does most here. But that was not my question, so answer it in the poll as it is asked.

EDIT... You know, I thought about this some more, and I don't think it is as easy of a decision as I made it sound... It would be close... With my original question, I went back and forth with Kobe and LeBron and chose LeBron... On this question, I think I would go back and forth with LeBron and Dirk, and would eventually choose Dirk because I like him more... But remember, LeBron I chose as the best player and 2nd in the MVP race, so it would really be close!

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 03:11 PM
As for "who's the best player?"... I don't know. I'd like to wait a few weeks to decide.... see who steps it up in the playoffs... see who folds..

Make a prediction...

Thespiralgoeson
05-03-2006, 03:24 PM
Kobe.

EricaLubarsky
05-03-2006, 03:51 PM
AK in a good system could average a triple double with 3-4 blocks.

Dtownsfinest
05-03-2006, 03:57 PM
Kobe without a doubt. Can't believe guys actually thought the Lakers should choose Shaq and trade Kobe lol.

aexchange
05-03-2006, 03:57 PM
lebron.

passing, physical abilities, age. brute strength. overall, hes a beast.

aexchange
05-03-2006, 03:58 PM
Kobe without a doubt. Can't believe guys actually thought the Lakers should choose Shaq and trade Kobe lol.

a team with shaq and any clippers the lakers would have taken back in a trade would be better than what they have now.

shaq + maggette/brand > kobe + lamar

Thespiralgoeson
05-03-2006, 04:01 PM
AK in a good system could average a triple double with 3-4 blocks.

Probably. But AK is not a guy who can create his own offense. He's not someone who can put up 30 points consistently. He's not someone who can throw a defense into chaos.

IMO, that ability is FAR more valuble and essential to winning games than an overall well-rounded game like AK's or Garnett's. That's why I laugh when people say that Dirk isn't on the same level as Garnett.

EricaLubarsky
05-03-2006, 04:06 PM
Probably. But AK is not a guy who can create his own offense. He's not someone who can put up 30 points consistently. He's not someone who can throw a defense into chaos.

IMO, that ability is FAR more valuble and essential to winning games than an overall well-rounded game like AK's or Garnett's. That's why I laugh when people say that Dirk isn't on the same level as Garnett.
the question wasnt most valuable, it was best overall player. The guy's more than decent offense is just another facet to his well-rounded overall play

dalmations202
05-03-2006, 04:08 PM
If I were a GM with the #1 pick in the draft and everyone were put back in the draft, and we were only playing one year -- Give me Dirk. He is a nightmare matchup who is a 7' who continually has always gotten better, and always makes his teammates better.

Best overall player though, Kobe, but I would never have him on my team due to the off the court stuff, and due to attitude.
Sorry, but Lebron wouldn't do it "next" year. Duncan may be done with is injury, and KGarnett just can't seem to make it happen.

Thespiralgoeson
05-03-2006, 04:13 PM
the question wasnt most valuable, it was best overall player. The guy's more than decent offense is just another facet to his well-rounded overall play

Well then forgive my use of the word "valuble" because I didn't intend to use it in that "MVP" intangible, cosmic, esoteric sense. I meant that generally, I tend to think that people who are great one-on-one scorers are better basketball players than people who arent.

WayOutWest
05-03-2006, 08:46 PM
I'm a huge Laker fan and I'd still take a one-legged Tim Duncan over anyone.

TD plays both ends of the court, his offense and defense affects the ENTIRE opposing team. While Kobe can effect an entire team on offense he can only affect a single player with his defense.

Until he fades like Shaq, the Big Fudamental will get my vote. I'll read the posts to see if someone can change my mind.

Murphy3
05-03-2006, 09:30 PM
Even with all that AK does defensively, he just doesn't impact the game as much as Dirk, LeBron, or Kobe.

Thespiralgoeson
05-03-2006, 09:57 PM
Until he fades like Shaq, the Big Fudamental will get my vote. I'll read the posts to see if someone can change my mind.

Already happened. Dirk surpassed him last season, and the gap between them has only grown.

WayOutWest
05-03-2006, 10:11 PM
Already happened. Dirk surpassed him last season, and the gap between them has only grown.

No way Dirk's TD's equal last year, this year maybe but ONLY because TD has been playing hurt all year.

A healthy TD is a better player than Dirk, not as versitile offensively but just as effective and better on D. Not to mention the number of titles he's LED his teams too.

Dtownsfinest
05-03-2006, 10:33 PM
a team with shaq and any clippers the lakers would have taken back in a trade would be better than what they have now.

shaq + maggette/brand > kobe + lamar


You're assuming that the Clipps would've done that. Was there rumors of that deal occuring? I imagine it was just like the rumors of Dirk for Shaq. At the end of the day, Shaq's on his last legs while Kobe is the best player in the NBA. I'd take Kobe over Maggette and Brand any day of the week and that's not even throwing in Lamar Odom and Caron Butler. Meanwhile, the Heat will be in cap hell for awhile. Both the Heat and Lakers ended up great in the deal but you never take talent over age.

Male30Dan
05-03-2006, 11:03 PM
Maybe some of you want to change your vote now?

nashtymavsfan13
05-03-2006, 11:51 PM
Unfortunatley, I'd have to go with Lebron. Lebron gets the slight edge over Dirk defensively.

Dirk is definetly top 5, probably top 3. But trying to be honest with this one, I have to go with Lebron.

Murphy3
05-03-2006, 11:56 PM
I don't think that I could go with Dirk. However, I do believe that Dirk CAN be the guy that has the biggest impact on the game over the playoffs. But, he just hasn't been playing at this level long enough.... but, neither has LeBron.

If Dirk were to post up some remarkable numbers during these playoffs as the Mavs win the championship and he were to back it up with an MVP season next year, then you could definitely make a strong case for him being the best player in the NBA. But as it stands, I don't think you can put Dirk as the best player in the league.... To me, he just hasn't done it quite long enough yet.

Now, I will say that he might have been the best player in the NBA since February on into the playoffs....but, i'd have to do a little research before I definitively said that one way or the other.

nashtymavsfan13
05-03-2006, 11:57 PM
I don't think that I could go with Dirk. However, I do believe that Dirk CAN be the guy that has the biggest impact on the game over the playoffs. But, he just hasn't been playing at this level long enough.... but, neither has LeBron.

If Dirk were to post up some remarkable numbers during these playoffs as the Mavs win the championship and he were to back it up with an MVP season next year, then you could definitely make a strong case for him being the best player in the NBA. But as it stands, I don't think you can put Dirk as the best player in the league.... To me, he just hasn't done it quite long enough yet.

Now, I will say that he might have been the best player in the NBA since February on into the playoffs....but, i'd have to do a little research before I definitively said that one way or the other.

That being said, who's ur choice?

Murphy3
05-03-2006, 11:59 PM
Well, that only leaves Kobe. But, I won't say Kobe simply because of his selfish nature. LeBron has in no way done it long enough for me. LeBron has been at this level a shorter time than Dirk. Dirk just doesn't get the hype.

Now, do I think Kobe is the league MVP? No, not in the least bit. His team has suddenly become more successful once he actually started playing team ball. If he would have done so the entire season, the Lakers would have posted a 50 win season. But, team ball just hasn't been Kobe's style.

Murphy3
05-04-2006, 12:01 AM
But, it sure isn't Tim Duncan. I might have said him in the not too distant past. But, he's not even the best Power Forward in Texas.

nashtymavsfan13
05-04-2006, 12:03 AM
Lebron definetly has the potential to be as good as Jordan.

Definetly better than Kobe.

Murphy3
05-04-2006, 12:06 AM
I agree that LeBron has the potential to be a better player than what Kobe has been throughout his career.

nashtymavsfan13
05-04-2006, 12:08 AM
I agree that LeBron has the potential to be a better player than what Kobe has been throughout his career.

And I agree, that he hasnt done it long enough yet.

Murphy3
05-04-2006, 12:14 AM
Right now, I'd say that there isn't a guy that I'd place as the 'best player' in the NBA. LeBron hasn't done it long enough. Dirk has a chance to step up to that level with a great run here in the post season and on into next season. Kobe has to prove that he's not selfish... Tim Duncan just wasn't up to his normal standards this year. Shaq has fallen off quite a bit. Wade is close, but I saw more of LeBron stepping up late in the season than Wade. Garnett just doesn't do a thing for me offensively. Yeah, he's a good offensive player, but do you want him to have the ball the last 5 minutes of regulation in a close game? Do you want him to be the guy that's carrying your team in the playoffs? No, of course not. McGrady wasn't quite there when he was healthy. He hasn't been healthy in awhile. Right now, I'd put Yao ahead of him simply because I just don't know how well McGrady recovers. Nash isn't even the clear cut best player on his team to many. He's great offensively, but he's far and away the worst defensively on the list.

It'll be interesting to see how the next few weeks sort themself out.

Thespiralgoeson
05-04-2006, 12:25 AM
No way Dirk's TD's equal last year, this year maybe but ONLY because TD has been playing hurt all year.

A healthy TD is a better player than Dirk, not as versitile offensively but just as effective and better on D. Not to mention the number of titles he's LED his teams too.

You obviously didn't watch NBA Basketball last season if you think Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal.

2004-2005

Dirk

26.1 PPG
.459 FG%
.869 FT%
.399 3pt%
9.7 RPG
3.1 APG


Duncan

20.3 PPG
.496 FG%
.670 FT%
.333 3pt%
11.1 RPG
2.7 APG

Actually, you're right. Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal last year. He was BETTER.

And please, for the love of god, don't use the titles as your only support. If the number of titles a player has dictates how good he is, or determines if one player is better than another, then Horace Grant was a better player than Patrick Ewing. Robert Horry is as good as Michael Jordan. Mark Aguirre was a better player than Elgin Baylor. It's bullshit.

Male30Dan
05-04-2006, 12:26 AM
You voted for Other Murph... Who is your choice?

Thespiralgoeson
05-04-2006, 12:30 AM
Unfortunatley, I'd have to go with Lebron. Lebron gets the slight edge over Dirk defensively.


No way. If LeBron's a better player than Dirk, it's because of his passing. Neither of them are great defenders, but LeBron is NOT a better defender than Dirk. I have no problem with someone saying that LeBron's a better player, because frankly, I agree. But it's definitely not because of his defense. And if defense is the tie-breaker, then you have GOT to go with Kobe. 5 all-defensive team selections just don't lie.

Murphy3
05-04-2006, 12:40 AM
You voted for Other Murph... Who is your choice?
no choice right now... I don't think that there is anyone that stands out in my mind as the best player in the league...

Yes, I'm taking the easy way out....

Male30Dan
05-04-2006, 12:48 AM
no choice right now... I don't think that there is anyone that stands out in my mind as the best player in the league...

Yes, I'm taking the easy way out....

Fair enough... I just wanted you to say that or a name.

nashtymavsfan13
05-04-2006, 01:04 AM
You obviously didn't watch NBA Basketball last season if you think Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal.

2004-2005

Dirk

26.1 PPG
.459 FG%
.869 FT%
.399 3pt%
9.7 RPG
3.1 APG


Duncan

20.3 PPG
.496 FG%
.670 FT%
.333 3pt%
11.1 RPG
2.7 APG

Actually, you're right. Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal last year. He was BETTER.

And please, for the love of god, don't use the titles as your only support. If the number of titles a player has dictates how good he is, or determines if one player is better than another, then Horace Grant was a better player than Patrick Ewing. Robert Horry is as good as Michael Jordan. Mark Aguirre was a better player than Elgin Baylor. It's bullshit.

Dirk was definetly better than TD last year, no question.

nashtymavsfan13
05-04-2006, 01:05 AM
No way. If LeBron's a better player than Dirk, it's because of his passing. Neither of them are great defenders, but LeBron is NOT a better defender than Dirk. I have no problem with someone saying that LeBron's a better player, because frankly, I agree. But it's definitely not because of his defense. And if defense is the tie-breaker, then you have GOT to go with Kobe. 5 all-defensive team selections just don't lie.

Yeah ur right, my mistake. Lebron is the better player though, and I was trying to support being non biased other than stating the obvious.

chumdawg
05-04-2006, 01:14 AM
You obviously didn't watch NBA Basketball last season if you think Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal.

2004-2005

Dirk

26.1 PPG
.459 FG%
.869 FT%
.399 3pt%
9.7 RPG
3.1 APG


Duncan

20.3 PPG
.496 FG%
.670 FT%
.333 3pt%
11.1 RPG
2.7 APG

Actually, you're right. Dirk wasn't Duncan's equal last year. He was BETTER.

And please, for the love of god, don't use the titles as your only support. If the number of titles a player has dictates how good he is, or determines if one player is better than another, then Horace Grant was a better player than Patrick Ewing. Robert Horry is as good as Michael Jordan. Mark Aguirre was a better player than Elgin Baylor. It's bullshit.Nothing gives me more tired head than someone comparing one average stat line to another and declaring one player better. This isn't baseball. This isn't one-on-one.

TD's team won three more games than DN's team, with the supporting casts being similar. Some things you just can't settle in basketball with individual stats.

Now, this is not to say that TD is better than DN. I happen to prefer DN because I think TD would fold up like Pau Gasol if the calls went his way the way they go Dirk's way. But still, such a simplistic analysis gives me tired head.

Thespiralgoeson
05-04-2006, 03:20 AM
Nothing gives me more tired head than someone comparing one average stat line to another and declaring one player better. This isn't baseball. This isn't one-on-one.

TD's team won three more games than DN's team, with the supporting casts being similar. Some things you just can't settle in basketball with individual stats.

And nothing gives me more tired head than people who dismiss stats as if they're nothing. Points, rebounds, assists so on so forth. They're records of the players PRODUCTION. If one player has better stats than another, he's usually BETTER. There are exceptions to this of course, but that's exactly what they are, exceptions. And chum, no this isn't baseball, but in a very general sense, basketball is mostly one on one.

And for the record, the Spurs won 59 games last year to the Mavs' 58. That's one more game, not three. And, this is just my humble opinion, but I'd take Duncan's supporting cast over Dirk's any day.

Now, this is not to say that TD is better than DN. I happen to prefer DN because I think TD would fold up like Pau Gasol if the calls went his way the way they go Dirk's way. But still, such a simplistic analysis gives me tired head.

Simplistic? Maybe. Meaningless? Hell no.

And chum, sue me for being so damn simplistic. Stats are quick, to the point, and easy to pull up. Perhaps I didn't feel like re-typing the same shit I'd already typed about how I believe the ability to score one-on-one is the most important aspect of a player's game, and thereby twisting the thread into an entirely different debate.

Simplistic is some moron saying "he has more championships" or "he makes his teammates better." Pulling up stats isn't simplistic. It's accurate.

dude1394
05-04-2006, 08:43 AM
Nothing gives me tireder head than seeing someone attack someones opinion without throwing diddly out there to refute it. Just to attack the thinking of the other person. The point isn't even debated, it's just an attack on the messenger.

Sort of like this post. :)

Five-ofan
05-04-2006, 08:50 AM
Duncan is not close to dirk offensively(nor was he last year) and his defense isnt what it once was. He is still good at man 2 man post d and he is a good help defender because of the respect of the officials but his days as a great defender are behind him. I cant believe im gonna say this but his defense is not noticeably better than dirks anymore. He is still slightly better i would say because of his indvidual post D and he is a better help defender but dirk is a better overall man defender. I never thought i would say that with a straight face.

Male30Dan
05-04-2006, 08:58 AM
Duncan is not close to dirk offensively(nor was he last year) and his defense isnt what it once was. He is still good at man 2 man post d and he is a good help defender because of the respect of the officials but his days as a great defender are behind him. I cant believe im gonna say this but his defense is not noticeably better than dirks anymore. He is still slightly better i would say because of his indvidual post D and he is a better help defender but dirk is a better overall man defender. I never thought i would say that with a straight face.

And you shouldn't have! :)

Five-ofan
05-04-2006, 09:04 AM
Duncan simply cant guard any pfs with any kind of game out to 15-17 feet. I dont mean that he occassionally gets beat. I mean he looks like rookie dirk in that situation. I do think it is largely do to his feet BUT the fact remains that his man d has been awful this year anywhere other thant he post. It is being put into the light more in the playoffs with SAR eating him up but this has been going on all year.

jleefilled
05-04-2006, 09:18 AM
Anyone think Vince Carter deserves some consideration? I haven't really watched his games, but he seems to be tearing it up lately.

WayOutWest
05-04-2006, 09:21 AM
And nothing gives me more tired head than people who dismiss stats as if they're nothing. Points, rebounds, assists so on so forth. They're records of the players PRODUCTION. If one player has better stats than another, he's usually BETTER. There are exceptions to this of course, but that's exactly what they are, exceptions. And chum, no this isn't baseball, but in a very general sense, basketball is mostly one on one.

I agree stats are important in backing up debates like this one. But they don't tell the entire story. While offensively Dirk is a more versitile player, TD is more efficient as the FG% points out. Like I said TD has been hurt all year and it's taken a toll on his game. TD is more effective because he plays an inside game, he draws more fouls, too bad his FT% sucks, and when he's double teamed he frees up his team mates. There is a reason teams would prefer to have an inside out game, it creates more opportunities for your team and causes more problems for the opposing team.

TD's defense is head and shoulders above Dirks. Defense is so overlooked in the ESPN generation of b-ball fans. What sets MJ apart from Magic and Bird is that he could dominate his opponent on both ends of the court, IMO that's what sets TD above Dirk, Webber and Amare in the past and present and what sets Kobe apart from LeBron, Wade and T-Mac. While KG can defend quite well, TD is the anchor of the Spurs defense, he very sound on both ends.

And for the record, the Spurs won 59 games last year to the Mavs' 58. That's one more game, not three. And, this is just my humble opinion, but I'd take Duncan's supporting cast over Dirk's any day.

Depends on what you prefer. Offensively Dirk's squad is way better, defensively TD has the edge. That's why IMO the Mavs best shot to beat the Spurs is THIS year because they are CLEARLY better on offense and the Spurs only have the EDGE in defense. In years past the Spurs would dominate on defense.

Simplistic? Maybe. Meaningless? Hell no.

And chum, sue me for being so damn simplistic. Stats are quick, to the point, and easy to pull up. Perhaps I didn't feel like re-typing the same shit I'd already typed about how I believe the ability to score one-on-one is the most important aspect of a player's game, and thereby twisting the thread into an entirely different debate.

Scoring one-on-one is where TD has the edge over Dirk, FG%. Give them an equal amount of shots and TD wins that battle. The FT line is another story. Again, TD has had a major drop off this year because of the injury.

Simplistic is some moron saying "he has more championships" or "he makes his teammates better." Pulling up stats isn't simplistic. It's accurate.

Calling someone a moron shows your level of expertise. Here is what posted:
"A healthy TD is a better player than Dirk, not as versitile offensively but just as effective and better on D. Not to mention the number of titles he's LED his teams too."

Since I had to connect the dots about "versitle" vs "effective" and that whole "D" thing, I'll just assume you need a simplistic breakdown of such concepts.

Pulling up stats is not the end all argument in these types of discussions. Plus where are block shots? opponets fg%? and other defensive stats?

Anyway, I'm not much of a fan playing the name game right now, (i.e. moron) so I'll just bypass your simplistic posts.

Five-ofan
05-04-2006, 09:21 AM
He is right there with lebron as to who has been the second best player in the playoffs and when he wants to be he is amazing but generally he is too much of a chucker to be the best player in the nba for long periods of time. He is the best dunker ever though.

Five-ofan
05-04-2006, 09:25 AM
Duncan is not more effecient than dirk. Look at effective and true fg%s plus (and this is the most underrated part of dirks game) Dirk hardly ever turns the ball over. Plus you mention his ft% but then gloss over it as if it doesnt affect his effenciency. The Fts duncan shoots are possessions whether they count as fgas or not. Dirks 90% ft shooting vs Duncans high 60% shooting is a HUGE difference. Plus it takes away the option of fouling late in games. Dirk is without question the better offensive player.

orangedays
05-04-2006, 09:26 AM
While offensively Dirk is a more versitile player, TD is more efficient as the FG% points out.

This may have been true last year, but only barely. FG% doesn't tell the whole story either. TD's eFG% last year was 49.8% while Dirk's was 49.0%.

This year? Dirk's eFG% was 51.5% to Duncan's 48.5%.

True shooting %? Dirk's at 58.9%, Duncan at 52.3%.

This year, Dirk is by far the more efficient offensive player.

EDIT: Five-o you punk, now it looks like I'm riding your coattails! :D

WayOutWest
05-04-2006, 09:31 AM
Duncan simply cant guard any pfs with any kind of game out to 15-17 feet. I dont mean that he occassionally gets beat. I mean he looks like rookie dirk in that situation. I do think it is largely do to his feet BUT the fact remains that his man d has been awful this year anywhere other thant he post. It is being put into the light more in the playoffs with SAR eating him up but this has been going on all year.

That's cause your typical PF doesn't play outside of the paint, nor should he. That's what makes PF like Dirk and KG so special, for a time Webber as well. SAR is effective as well cause he faces up in the post and drives. But I completely agree that TD is a more traditional post defender but he's still better than Dirk in every aspect of defense when TD is healty. Right now his foot injury is really limiting everything he does.

It's quite possible that Dirk will dominate offensively to such a great extent that it will overshadow not only his own defense but the defense of his rivals ala Magic and Bird. Bird is a perfect example of what Dirk can become, McHale was clearly a more effective player on offense and an all-NBA defender but Bird stepped up in "hero" time and was a living legend.

WayOutWest
05-04-2006, 09:34 AM
Duncan is not more effecient than dirk. Look at effective and true fg%s plus (and this is the most underrated part of dirks game) Dirk hardly ever turns the ball over. Plus you mention his ft% but then gloss over it as if it doesnt affect his effenciency. The Fts duncan shoots are possessions whether they count as fgas or not. Dirks 90% ft shooting vs Duncans high 60% shooting is a HUGE difference. Plus it takes away the option of fouling late in games. Dirk is without question the better offensive player.

I know exactly what you're talking about. As a Laker fan I've had endless debates about Kobe vs Shaq in the Laker hay days. Shaq fg% was way better than Kobe's but the ft% balanced things out and even swung things in Kobe's favor so I really can't argue your point without selling out my "precious"...err...I mean Kobe.

jleefilled
05-04-2006, 09:35 AM
Kevin Garnett is a perennial loser. If Dirk doesn't compare to Duncan unless Duncan is injured, Garnett doesn't compare to Dirk unless Dirk is on crutches.

WayOutWest
05-04-2006, 09:51 AM
Kevin Garnett is a perennial loser. If Dirk doesn't compare to Duncan unless Duncan is injured, Garnett doesn't compare to Dirk unless Dirk is on crutches.

IMO, there is no difference between Dirk and KG when it comes to winning. How many rings do they have? How many finals have they been in? How many WC finals have they been in? How many times in the playoffs? Short sighted comment if you ask me.

Five-ofan
05-04-2006, 09:53 AM
To be fair Orange I did already have the effective fg% part in there before i edited. I did add the true shooting after your post reminded me of it. As to pfs not playing on the perimeter for the majority of the nba now im gonna have to disagree. Nearly every pf in the nba has a game out to 15 feet. Just a few off the top of my head
Dirk
KG
Sheed
Bosh
Marion
Pau(sort of)
Brand
JO
Krstic(he is a pf)
Harrington
Murphy
SAR
West
AK
Jamison

There are some others as well but basically at least half the pfs in the nba have some kind of a 15 foot game. hell a large portion of duncans offense is 12-15 foot bank shots.

Five-ofan
05-04-2006, 09:56 AM
KG has won 2 playoff series. Dirk has won 6. That is a difference. Not to mention that since dirk came of age the mavs have won at least 52 games every year. KG? Has missed the playoffs twice in a row.

orangedays
05-04-2006, 09:56 AM
hell a large portion of duncans offense is 12-15 foot bank shots.

56% to be exact (that qualify as 'jumpers').

jleefilled
05-04-2006, 10:01 AM
IMO, there is no difference between Dirk and KG when it comes to winning. How many rings do they have? How many finals have they been in? How many WC finals have they been in? How many times in the playoffs? Short sighted comment if you ask me.

Well, we obviously disagree in what the term "winning" means. Loosely, I'd say it means that you at the least would make the playoffs. Last time I checked, KG hasn't been doing that. But yes, my comment was obviously ridiculous. I don't really think Dirk need be on crutches for KG to be mentioned in the same breath -- though their respective teams would probably perform similarly.

WayOutWest
05-04-2006, 10:18 AM
Well, we obviously disagree in what the term "winning" means. Loosely, I'd say it means that you at the least would make the playoffs. Last time I checked, KG hasn't been doing that. But yes, my comment was obviously ridiculous. I don't really think Dirk need be on crutches for KG to be mentioned in the same breath -- though their respective teams would probably perform similarly.

IMO winning = rings.

Honestly, who celebrates their team comming in 2nd-16th? I root for my team no matter what, although when the Lakers play the Clippers it does get confusing. I support my team(s) through thick and thin but at the end of the day it's all about the rings. So many great players didnt' or don't become icons or legends because they fall short of a title.

Five-ofan
05-04-2006, 10:23 AM
Yes it does all boil down to winning a ring but obviously there are various levels below that. IE if the mavs were to lose in the finals winning 60 and going to the finals is alot different that not making the playoffs. That said the mavs will win their ring this year so this point will be mute. That said, do you still think that all pfs but KG and dirk play in the post? Dirk is without question the best pf in the nba.

WayOutWest
05-04-2006, 11:58 AM
Yes it does all boil down to winning a ring but obviously there are various levels below that. IE if the mavs were to lose in the finals winning 60 and going to the finals is alot different that not making the playoffs. That said the mavs will win their ring this year so this point will be mute. That said, do you still think that all pfs but KG and dirk play in the post? Dirk is without question the best pf in the nba.

They are not the only ones but the only one's of not. Horace Grant and the like can hit the open jumper but they're not at the level of KG and Dirk. Those two's outside game are their primary threat. I can live with all those PF's, even Rasheed, living on thier outside shooting, I cannot expect to win allowing Dirk and KG to do the same thing.

Five-ofan
05-04-2006, 12:14 PM
My point was duncan cant guard ANY of those guys. Since you are a laker fan and I forgot him I should throw in Odom as well. The thing is even if they cant hit the jumper they can all get to the rim against duncan no matter how much space he gives them. Duncans mobility used to make him special because he could legitimately guard most 4s out to 15 feet(he could never really guard dirk or kg) but now he cant even guard the list of guys i mentioned above.

Usually Lurkin
05-04-2006, 12:32 PM
Lebron over Kobe for me. Because EVERYTHING includes being a better teammate.

Dirk's very close.

Duncan is hurt and not playing up to how he should be. That makes him not the best player. To say: If he wasn't hurt . . . is like saying "If Kobe was a better teammate . . ."

Usually Lurkin
05-04-2006, 12:32 PM
Lebron over Kobe for me. Because EVERYTHING includes being a better teammate.

Dirk's very close.

Duncan is hurt and not playing up to how he should be. That makes him not the best player. To say: If he wasn't hurt . . . is like saying "If Kobe was a better teammate . . ."

orangedays
05-04-2006, 01:55 PM
Interesting, the heavy hitters are spread out pretty evenly between Kobe, LeBron, and Dirk.

sike
05-04-2006, 01:56 PM
Kobe is the most complete and greatest player in this league.

look out from BronBron though

sike
05-04-2006, 01:57 PM
who voted for Duncan?

Five-ofan
05-04-2006, 03:37 PM
I voted dirk but i can easily see arguments for lebron and kobe.

spreedom
05-04-2006, 03:45 PM
I can barely even see an argument for Dirk. He's by far my favorite player, but he isn't close to as good as Kobe.

Murphy3
05-04-2006, 04:11 PM
Really? He's not close to Kobe? Surely you've got to be kidding me, don't you? To say that one of the top 3-4 players in the league is not even close to one of the other top 3-4 players is more than just a bit odd, isn't it?

orangedays
05-04-2006, 04:21 PM
I can barely even see an argument for Dirk. He's by far my favorite player, but he isn't close to as good as Kobe.

Just curious, what makes you say that spreedom?

Five-ofan
05-04-2006, 04:42 PM
Anyone that leads the league in PER on a team that wins 60 games without another all star at least has an argument because that in and of itself is an argument but I have no problem with someone saying Lebron or Kobe is the best.

spreedom
05-04-2006, 06:24 PM
Really? He's not close to Kobe? Surely you've got to be kidding me, don't you? To say that one of the top 3-4 players in the league is not even close to one of the other top 3-4 players is more than just a bit odd, isn't it?


I feel like Charles Barkley was the second best player during the Jordan Era but I wouldn't by any means say he was anywhere near the player Jordan was. Just because Dirk is without a doubt a top 5 in the NBA doesn't mean he's automatically in the same league as Kobe.

Here's what I do know. Dirk is a better rebounder and shotblocker than Kobe is. He probably turns the ball over a lot less. Don't forget that Kobe has to carry a much higher ballhandling load though.

However.. Kobe is also the most dominant scorer in the game since Jordan's second run. He usually draws the most difficult backcourt defensive assignment and plays pretty damn good defense. He's intense on both ends of the court, has very active hands on D, and is probably the best finisher around the basket in the league not named LeBron James. When Kobe's hot, he goes for 50+, whereas Dirk didn't seem to go for over 40 too often. It's true that Dirk probably doesn't score as much because he plays with guys named Stackhouse and Terry, but let's also remember that Kobe has done more with so little help than anybody else in the playoffs. His game reimaging has kept the Lakers one step ahead of the Suns in their playoff series has been a lot of fun to watch.

I think Kobe's the best player since Jordan, and if I had to pick between him and Dirk to make a one or two-year run, it's Kobe Bean all the way.

Murphy3
05-04-2006, 08:29 PM
Kobe is no Jordan. He's all of a few weeks of not playing selfish basketball. Until he proves that he's not a selfish bastard, any comparisons to Jordan need to stop.

And let's face it, Kobe has made to great/clutch shots. But, it's not like he's been that great throughout the playoffs. If Dirk were to put up the numbers that Kobe has put up so far in the playoffs, I'd say that he was not living up to expectations by any stretch of the imagination.

spreedom
05-04-2006, 08:37 PM
Kobe's exceeding expectations in my eyes. Sure, all of the Nash haters here expected the Suns to get tested by the Lakers, but how many people really expected that the Lakers would outplay the Suns in nearly every game en route to a dominant position in the series?

Evilmav2
05-04-2006, 08:37 PM
I hate to say it, but this year the best overall player in the NBA has been the rapist...

Murphy3
05-04-2006, 08:42 PM
So, spreedom, you're giving all of the credit for the Lakers being up on the Suns to Kobe? Why?

Murphy3
05-04-2006, 08:44 PM
I hate to say it, but this year the best overall player in the NBA has been the rapist...
Well, if you want to isolate just what they do without measuring the impact that their play has on the rest of the team, then it probably is Kobe. But, if he hadn't been a selfish rapist the entire season, how many wins would the Lakers have? To me, that detracts from his numbers. Even with that, he still could have a slight edge. But, it definitely detracts from his game in my eyes.

But, I wouldn't say that Dirk was the best player in the league this year.

Evilmav2
05-04-2006, 08:51 PM
I hate Kobe, and am actually rooting against him in the Suns series, but goodness knows when we fans will ever see something like that 81 point game again (10 years? 20 years? 40 years?), and 35.4 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.5 apg, and 1.5 spg is a nasty, nasty statline for a man who led his team into the playoffs, and may be about to advance to the second round.

Again, I hate Kobe, and I sure as heck would love to be able to say that Dirk was the best player in the league this year (I would probably rank him second), but Kobe has made history this year with his ridiculous scoring performances (generally in winning efforts), and the shine of his superlative regular season performance has only been further buffed by the way that he and Phil have been lately laying the log on the Suns in the playoffs...

spreedom
05-04-2006, 09:45 PM
So, spreedom, you're giving all of the credit for the Lakers being up on the Suns to Kobe? Why?

Of course not. If that's how you interpreted what I said, fair enough. Fact remains he's been the best player in that entire series, and without him, the Suns would have won every game by thirty in a four-game sweep. I'm not giving him any credit he doesn't deserve.

Murphy3
05-04-2006, 09:49 PM
He might be the best player in the series, but his performances aren't comparable to many others in the playoffs in different series.

And yes, the Lakers would have been swept without Kobe. But, the Mavs might have been swept without Dirk. What's your point there? The Wizards probably would have been swept without Arenas. The Cavs probably would have been swept without LeBron. The Suns probably would have been swept without Nash... and on and on...

spreedom
05-04-2006, 10:28 PM
He might be the best player in the series, but his performances aren't comparable to many others in the playoffs in different series.

And yes, the Lakers would have been swept without Kobe. But, the Mavs might have been swept without Dirk. What's your point there? The Wizards probably would have been swept without Arenas. The Cavs probably would have been swept without LeBron. The Suns probably would have been swept without Nash... and on and on...


Did you miss my point? I said Kobe's performance is what is keeping the Lakers in the series, helping them exceed expectations. What isn't clear about that?

Murphy3
05-04-2006, 10:52 PM
My point is that any number of star level players around the league could have stepped in and done just as good of a job as Kobe in this series or better. Kobe has only been 'pretty good' this series.

spreedom
05-05-2006, 12:17 AM
My point is that any number of star level players around the league could have stepped in and done just as good of a job as Kobe in this series or better. Kobe has only been 'pretty good' this series.

I guess that's just your opinion. In my opinion, there are a number of players that could easily replace Dirk..

jleefilled
05-05-2006, 12:41 AM
So um, anybody want to change their vote?

; )

Murphy3
05-05-2006, 12:48 AM
I guess that's just your opinion. In my opinion, there are a number of players that could easily replace Dirk..
Start naming them.

spreedom
05-05-2006, 12:55 AM
Start naming them.

You can just go ahead and let me know who all of these other players are that could be doing what Kobe's been doing so far in the playoffs.

jleefilled
05-05-2006, 12:56 AM
I guess that's just your opinion. In my opinion, there are a number of players that could easily replace Dirk..

Wow, for someone who professes to having Dirk as their favorite player, you sure don't know much about the uniqueness of his abilities. "Let me enlighten you, cause your third-eye's on dim." (de la soul) There is no one, no one, in the association that puts Dirks' abilities into a 7-foot frame. No-body. For all of Reggie Miller's lunacy in his commentary, even he can see why Dirk is a superstar, he puts CONSTANT pressure on the defense. Name a seven-footer or even 6'11" dude who can put CONSTANT pressure on defenses whether it be jumpshots or taking it to the rim. Name one that could replace Dirk -- for the love of hyperbole -- easily.

spreedom
05-05-2006, 01:03 AM
Wow, for someone who professes to having Dirk as their favorite player, you sure don't know much about the uniqueness of his abilities. "Let me enlighten you, cause your third-eye's on dim." (de la soul) There is no one, no one, in the association that puts Dirks' abilities into a 7-foot frame. No-body. For all of Reggie Miller's lunacy in his commentary, even he can see why Dirk is a superstar, he puts CONSTANT pressure on the defense. Name a seven-footer or even 6'11" dude who can put CONSTANT pressure on defenses whether it be jumpshots or taking it to the rim. Name one that could replace Dirk -- for the love of hyperbole -- easily.


You don't have to be exactly the same player to have similar production. There are 5 or 6 better scorers in the league and over 10 better rebounders. Get a guy that can score 25+ a game or a guy that can get double-digit rebounds with a reasonably refined offensive game and the Mavs will still win 55+ games and get that 4th seed.

Murphy3
05-05-2006, 01:03 AM
Considering that Kobe hasn't been all that spectacular so far in the playoffs, the line forms to the left.

I'd say that Dirk, LeBron, Gilbert Arenas, Dwayne Wade, a healthy TMac, Steve Nash and maybe a few others could step in and produce at the level that Kobe has so far in the playoffs.

And no, I'm not saying that they are as good as Kobe..just saying that they could have produced at the same level as what he's done so far in the playoffs. He hasn't been nearly at his best.

Murphy3
05-05-2006, 01:05 AM
There are 5 or 6 better scorers? Are you sure that there are 5 or 6 better scorers or are there 5 or 6 guys that scored more points this year. There's a huge difference. I don't believe that there are 5 or 6 better scorers for a minute in this league than Dirk.

jleefilled
05-05-2006, 01:11 AM
You don't have to be exactly the same player to have similar production. There are 5 or 6 better scorers in the league and over 10 better rebounders. Get a guy that can score 25+ a game or a guy that can get double-digit rebounds with a reasonably refined offensive game and the Mavs will still win 55+ games and get that 4th seed.

Man, you're talking about one or two guys in the entire league that MIGHT be able to fulfill your criteria of 25+ and 10 boards a game. But, point taken. I do think if you replaced Dirk with perhaps a Garnett, the Mavs will still make the playoffs. However, when you said easily replace Dirk, I'm hoping you're talking about a team that is able to compete for a championship. I think the Mavs are built for Dirk's unique talents, and I don't think you can replace Dirk with anyone in the league and still make a Mav team that is as competitive.

Murphy3
05-05-2006, 01:14 AM
Yeah, but you wouldn't have a go to guy on the team in the clutch if Garnett were in a Mavs uniform. You'd still make the playoffs, but would anyone really like their title shot? No, I didn't think so.

jleefilled
05-05-2006, 01:15 AM
Exactly.. sorry for the late edit.

chumdawg
05-05-2006, 01:19 AM
I don't know about the regular season, but I haven't seen anything in the postseason that suggests that anyone else is even close to the level Dirk is playing at.

If Shaq had more games like tonight, he would be. But he doesn't, so he's not. Kobe and LeBron and Nash all have holes in their game when compared to Dirk.

spreedom
05-05-2006, 01:40 AM
I don't know about the regular season, but I haven't seen anything in the postseason that suggests that anyone else is even close to the level Dirk is playing at.

If Shaq had more games like tonight, he would be. But he doesn't, so he's not. Kobe and LeBron and Nash all have holes in their game when compared to Dirk.


Doesn't Dirk have a pretty big hole in his game on the defensive end?

chumdawg
05-05-2006, 02:03 AM
I don't think so.

spreedom
05-05-2006, 02:17 AM
I do.

Epitome22
05-05-2006, 05:13 AM
Tim Duncan.

Close Thread.

Arne
05-05-2006, 06:44 AM
Tim Duncan.

Close Thread.
Oh yeah, you're right. And I really like your argumentation. Great work.


Concerning Dirk and Kobe this far in the playoffs:

Dirk's efficiency rating per 48 minutes (in a low scoring series): 35.52

Kobe's efficiency rating per 48 minutes (in a high scoring series): 26.73

Lamar Odom's efficiency rating per 48 minutes: 27.91

Tells its own tale.

George Gervin
05-05-2006, 07:07 AM
The king of course.. glad that dude is in the eastern conference..

orangedays
05-05-2006, 08:17 AM
You don't have to be exactly the same player to have similar production. There are 5 or 6 better scorers in the league and over 10 better rebounders. Get a guy that can score 25+ a game or a guy that can get double-digit rebounds with a reasonably refined offensive game and the Mavs will still win 55+ games and get that 4th seed.

Is it really as simple as that? Perhaps we should talk about offensive efficiency instead of raw numbers? Would another player who put up 25 pts. be able to put it up in the same manner as Dirk without placing undue stress on the Mavericks' offensive schemes? Do you have any idea what kind of disgusting percentages Dirk is shooting from the floor? And don't just look at FG%, you have to take into consideration everything, FTs, three-pointers - then ask yourself this: Ceteris paribus, if we put Dirk in uniform v. most any other player in the league and gave them all the same number of minutes and shots - who would put the most points up?

Dirk.

Five-ofan
05-05-2006, 08:47 AM
Kobe can be great defensively. in fact when he wants to be he is the best 2 guard in the league defensively BUT he takes HUGE stretches off on D. Jordan did the same thing. Dirk has progessed to the point that he is at least average throughout the game and can turn it up late much like kobe. Hes not quite the defender kobe is but the perception of dirk as the god awful defender he was his first two years is outdated.

Murphy3
05-05-2006, 11:17 AM
As a matter of fact, kobe just not paying attention defensively on a play late in the game played a key role in sending the game into overtime.

Five-ofan
05-05-2006, 12:02 PM
Also spreedom you say that you thought barkley was the second best player of the jordan era but then you know dirk for his D???? Barkley makes Dirk look like bill russel defensively. BTW just to let you know the second best player of the jordan era was Hakeem. Pippen was also better than barkley.