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OzMavs
03-24-2002, 03:58 PM
Man, What wouldn't we give for this guy. He got 28 rebounds tonight in the Pistons 109-101 victory over Boston, also got 6 blocks!

Epitome22
03-24-2002, 06:11 PM
To be perfectly honest, in addition to being the shoe in for defensive Player of the year, I really think Ben Wallace deserves the MVP award. Leading his team in steals, blocks and rebounds. He probably means more to the Pistons than Shaq does to the Lakers.

ocelot_ark
03-24-2002, 06:55 PM
Outside of any Mav, I think Ben is my favorite player in the league. Orlando basically threw him in to get Grant Hill. I bet they wish they would have substituted Bo Outlaw or something...He's just a phenomenal rebounder/defender. I sometimes watch the Pistons just to watch him play D.

Murphy3
03-24-2002, 09:22 PM
hmm..very interesting epitome.
however, i must disagree..very strongly disagree...very, very, very strongly disagree

Rhylan
03-25-2002, 12:13 AM
Watching him in that game today was an absolute blast. He's gotta be one of my top 5 favorite players in the league.

MavsFanFinley
03-25-2002, 12:24 AM
The depressing thing is I don't think we can offer a good enough package to get him.

Salaries not matching is probably our biggest problem.

And I doubt Detroit is listening to very many offers.

grbh
03-25-2002, 02:51 AM
I would love to have him, but i'm sure the Piston's ain't talkin. This has been a break out year for the guy. What if he keeps improving? No way they consider a deal unless it is for a Mav I am not willing to trade. (I do have final decision on all trades in case you were wondering).

David
03-25-2002, 06:03 AM
28 rebounds is good and all but were the Pistons playing against any rebounders for Boston? I don't know that the Celtics have any great players in their front court. Against the Laker, Wallace got 11 rebounds and 2 points. Sure, the Mavs would LOVE to have the 28 rebound guy but what we would be getting would be the 11 rebound, 2 point guy. I guess what I'm saying is, every once in a while a player has a big game but the rest of the time, he returns to normal. Didn't SHAWN BRADLEY have a 20/20 game? Let's trade for THAT guy.

Epitome22
03-25-2002, 09:22 AM
David, the talk about Ben Wallace is not based on his one spectacular game, it's based on the work he's been doing all season. Second in the league in rebounds, 1st in the l;eague in blocked shots, top 15 in steals. This game is just another testament to what he's capable of.

Hales233
03-25-2002, 10:25 AM
I agree with Epitome...Wallace has been doing the job all season long, he's a physical menace out there and nobody can box him out...nobody.

TheKid
03-25-2002, 11:43 AM
I tell you what I thought Dale Davis would have been the best fit but NO WAY is Dale Davis better than Wallace. He is the Dennis Rodman but BIGGER, STRONGER, better defensively and a better scorer.

Hales233
03-25-2002, 12:14 PM
he's a better scorer than rodman in his bulls days but not better than when dennis was with detroit.

Murphy3
03-25-2002, 03:45 PM
yes, wallace has been playing great..but to say he's the MVP..a bit over the top

David
03-25-2002, 04:50 PM
<< David, the talk about Ben Wallace is not based on his one spectacular game, it's based on the work he's been doing all season. Second in the league in rebounds, 1st in the l;eague in blocked shots, top 15 in steals. This game is just another testament to what he's capable of. >>



Yeah, I'm sure he is the 2nd Coming but doesn't he mainly play against the East and only two games each against all the West teams. He went up against the Lakers and BOTH of their PFs got 10 rebounds a piece vs his 11. I'm wondering about his competion level. He looks great against the Celtics and their inside players and then puts up the same rebound numbers as Dirk does without the points against the Lakers. What's up with that? Is he a one trick pony or what? He can jump. That's great. He can dunk. That is, also, great. Does that make him an MVP candidate? Yeah, him and Martin of NJ are BOTH MVP candidates.i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Big Boy Laroux
03-25-2002, 05:04 PM
i don't think he's an mvp candidate, but he is a BEAST and i would love him on the mavs.

madape
03-25-2002, 05:50 PM
Wallace's season reminds me a lot of another Eastern Conference center... Theo Ratliff. Like Wallace, Ratliff feasted on pathetic eastern conference frontcourts for a couple of years. Ratliff hasn't been heard of since being traded for. Now, I know he's been killed by injuries, but I still question whether Ratliff would ever have come close to the potential that most people expected from him. There are countless other examples of a center having one or two big years and then disappearing off the face of the earth. You have to be very careful when you talk about aquiring one, because more often than not, you will wind up paying way too much for a guy that never plays. Does anyone remember who Atlanta gave up to get Ratliff? Or how about the contracts given to players like Ike Austin, Jim McIlvaine, Calvin Booth, and Marc Jackson. Look at the centers who have consistently been good year after year in the NBA. Nine times out of ten they were lottery picks. And nine times out of ten, a guy that comes out of nowhere and has a breakout year, follows it up with a less than mediocre career. Ben Wallace is a 6'9&quot; undrafted center. I don't beleive in setting hard-set rules, but history tells us that its almost a lock that second round draft picks and undrafted free agent centers just don't succeed in the NBA.

Drbio
03-25-2002, 06:57 PM
He doesn't even appear on the MVP map. That said, he would be a fine addition to the Mavs if there was any way possible that he could be obtained. I just don't see that happening. Good for him on the excellent year he's having. Nice guy too.

Hoopsmeister
03-25-2002, 06:57 PM
A few thoughts:

1) The point that Wallace is in the Eastern Conference and so his stats should be taken with a grain of salt because he does not have to face the League's elite center and power forwards as regularly as Western Conference players do is a valid one. But it only goes so far. Remember what was said about Elton Brand's stats when he moved to the West, but he's still averaging a double-double. And Wallace is averaging more blocks and rebound than either Mutombo or Mourning, who both play in the East as well. And yes, I know neither is at the pinnacle of their career anymore but I don't think anyone would dismiss them either. Is Wallace another Shaq or the second coming of Karl Malone? I don't think anyone is claiming he is--but just because he's not necessarily a hall-of-famer doesn't mean he's not a very quality player.

2) He's a 6-9 power forward, not a center. He plays center a lot because he is in the Eastern Conference and Detroit's other option at center is Cliff Robinson.

3) Avery Johnson was undrafted and wasn't Van Exel a second round draft pick?

4) The comparison to Ratliff doesn't work simply because Ratliff has been hurt. He missed the last two months of his 'break-out' season and has played all of 3 games this season. So far, Wallace doesn't seem to show any signs of being that kind of fragile.

madape
03-25-2002, 07:26 PM
I'm not sure if this was clear in my post, but what I was trying to say is that second round and undrafted centers hardly ever make it in the league.

Epitome22
03-25-2002, 09:16 PM
I crunched some numbers

Ben Wallace:

Field Goal percentage

Against WC Teams: .496Against all Teams: .516

Total Rebounds

Against WC Teams: 11.9
Against all Teams: 12.6

Offensive Rebounds
Against WC Teams: 3.3
Against all Teams: 3.9

Defensive Rebounds

Against WC Teams: 8.6
Against All Teams: 8.7
Blocks

Against WC Teams: 3.2
Against All Teams: 3.39

Steals

Against WC Teams: 1.95
Against All Teams: 1.62

Points

Against WC Teams: 6.5
Against All Teams: 7.5
Numbers don't look to disparaging to me.

Epitome22
03-25-2002, 09:29 PM
<<

<< >>



Yeah, I'm sure he is the 2nd Coming but doesn't he mainly play against the East and only two games each against all the West teams.

(E) I posted his numbers against WC teams this season along with his numbers for the whole season. There isn't much difference and even the numbers he does post against West teams are very desirable.

Is he a one trick pony or what? He can jump. That's great. He can dunk. That is, also, great. Does that make him an MVP candidate? Yeah, him and Martin of NJ are BOTH MVP candidates.i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif

Yes, lord knows we have enough of those one dimensional board crashing monster defenders in this league i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif. As for the comment about him only being able to jump and dunk, I don't think he is an MVP candidiate because he can jump and dunk, it's what he does with those abilities that makes him an MVP candidate. The guy can defend like an SOB, crash the boards, swat shots and force turnovers He has lead a team of scrubs towards a potential second seed in the playoffs, without him the Pistons are worse than the Grizzlies.

>>

Epitome22
03-25-2002, 09:36 PM
For those talking about him following up his breakout year with a less than medicore career the guy isn't a rookie in the league. He did the same thing in more limited time in Orlando before coming to detroit last season and his last season in Detroit is arguably better than his season this year. You just never heard about him because the Pistons weren't contending for the playoff spot. Big Ben has been doing it before now and he'll continue to do it long before now.

MavsFanFinley
03-25-2002, 10:38 PM
<< Remember what was said about Elton Brand's stats when he moved to the West, but he's still averaging a double-double. >>



Good example.

The guy is hustle. Rebounds, defends and isn't afraid to bang with anyone.

Looking at salaries, there's no way that we can get him. I mean, I don't think they'll take Eschmeyer and Manning. i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif

MavsFanFinley
03-25-2002, 10:56 PM
I was fooling around with the trade checker at realgm.com cause it's fun even if there isn't much of a chance that Detroit trades him.

Anyway, I wasn't kidding about Eschmeyer and Manning being accepted for Wallace. But, that isn't even worth talking about. i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif

Um, Bradley for Wallace is accepted as well. Again, probably not worth talking about either. i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif

However, assuming Detroit is interested, would you consider trading Nash? Cause Nash for Wallace and Rodney White is accepted.

Fin's salary is too high and so I didn't even try to work and Im not creative enough to try 3 team deals, but Im sure something is workable.

And Dirk's salary is too low and that's not even an issue since we're not trading him for Wallace.

But, would you trade Nash for him?

Epitome22
03-26-2002, 01:57 AM
I wouldn't trade any of the big 3 for him, it's just wishful thinking of what he could do for the team, not prepared to make any real sacrifices for him.

David
03-26-2002, 04:19 AM
<< I wouldn't trade any of the big 3 for him, it's just wishful thinking of what he could do for the team, not prepared to make any real sacrifices for him. >>



You have him in your mind as an MVP candidate but you wouldn't trade any of the Mavs big three for him? You wouldn't trade any of those three for the Most Valuable Player in the NBA. On the one hand, you think highly of Ben Wallace but on the other hand you don't think THAT highly of Ben Wallace. I get the feeling that you just threw that MVP stuff out there, stats included, to fortify your point, but even YOU don't REALLY believe it. What a coincidence. Neither do I. Wallace is having a big year. I congratulate him but I have a feeling he would be the backup PF on yourdallasmavericks because I don't think Nelson plays him ahead of LaFrentz or Dirk.

scooterj5
03-26-2002, 04:43 AM
I am skeptical of centers having breakout years ever since Gheorge Muresean, Isaac Austin and Brian Williams. Word.

grbh
03-26-2002, 07:42 AM
I think the mispercption with Wallace was that this is his break year. The 200-2001 season was his breakout year. He has improved this year, but no more so than say Dirk has over lst year. I wouldn't call this Dirk's breakout year.

2000-2001
FG: .491
Rb: 13.2
St: 1.34
Bk: 2.33
Pts: 6.4

2001-2002
FG: .516
Rb: 12.6
St: 1.62
Bk: 3.39
Ppg: 7.5

It is true that a lot of big men have flamed out after a couple of years, but it is often due to injury. After a couple good years Muresan played 1 Game in 98-99, and 30 games in 99-00. Austin last four year game totals are 49,59,52,21. Of course on never knows, Wallace could follow the path of a lot of big men before him and become injury prone, but his last 3 years of games are 81,80, and 69 and counting.

Now I don't believe he is an MVP candidate. Defensive player of the year Ok no problem there. I would love to have him on this team, but there is no way Detroit trades him, he is to instrumental in the success they are having.

mavs.exit.de
03-26-2002, 12:45 PM
He has just earned more spotlight this season, because of some awesome games! (triple-double performance...)

Epitome22
03-26-2002, 03:05 PM
<<

<< I wouldn't trade any of the big 3 for him, it's just wishful thinking of what he could do for the team, not prepared to make any real sacrifices for him. >>



You have him in your mind as an MVP candidate but you wouldn't trade any of the Mavs big three for him? You wouldn't trade any of those three for the Most Valuable Player in the NBA. On the one hand, you think highly of Ben Wallace but on the other hand you don't think THAT highly of Ben Wallace. I get the feeling that you just threw that MVP stuff out there, stats included, to fortify your point, but even YOU don't REALLY believe it. What a coincidence. Neither do I. Wallace is having a big year. I congratulate him but I have a feeling he would be the backup PF on yourdallasmavericks because I don't think Nelson plays him ahead of LaFrentz or Dirk. >>



The most valuable player on one team might not be the most valuable player to another team. Dallas is much more loaded than Detroit and Big Ben does alot more for the Pistons than he would be able to for Dallas. I think very highly of Ben Wallace, I think very highly of Kobe Bryant for that matter but I wouldn't give away any of the 3 biggest pieces of my favorite team to get him. Not so much I don't believe in Ben as I don't like making sacrifices. As for being a backup, Wallace wouldn't play PF before Nowitzki but he would definitly play undersized Center before LaFrentz.

Hoopsmeister
03-26-2002, 03:24 PM
<< As for being a backup, Wallace wouldn't play PF before Nowitzki but he would definitly play undersized Center before LaFrentz. >>



Not on one of Nellie's teams. For all his amazing defensive numbers, Wallace can't shoot and LaFrentz can.

David
03-26-2002, 04:52 PM
<<

<<

<< I wouldn't trade any of the big 3 for him, it's just wishful thinking of what he could do for the team, not prepared to make any real sacrifices for him. >>



You have him in your mind as an MVP candidate but you wouldn't trade any of the Mavs big three for him? You wouldn't trade any of those three for the Most Valuable Player in the NBA. On the one hand, you think highly of Ben Wallace but on the other hand you don't think THAT highly of Ben Wallace. I get the feeling that you just threw that MVP stuff out there, stats included, to fortify your point, but even YOU don't REALLY believe it. What a coincidence. Neither do I. Wallace is having a big year. I congratulate him but I have a feeling he would be the backup PF on yourdallasmavericks because I don't think Nelson plays him ahead of LaFrentz or Dirk. >>



The most valuable player on one team might not be the most valuable player to another team. Dallas is much more loaded than Detroit and Big Ben does alot more for the Pistons than he would be able to for Dallas. I think very highly of Ben Wallace, I think very highly of Kobe Bryant for that matter but I wouldn't give away any of the 3 biggest pieces of my favorite team to get him. Not so much I don't believe in Ben as I don't like making sacrifices. As for being a backup, Wallace wouldn't play PF before Nowitzki but he would definitly play undersized Center before LaFrentz. >>



So, are we going from league MVP to team MVP? That's a different kettle of fish. Is he more valuable to Detroit than Stackhouse?

Wallace would get some playing time on the Mavs but not as a starter. Wallace is in a good situation for himself in Detroit. It would be different in Dallas and a lot of other places. You can probably name about three players per team that would have it over Wallace on each team, on average.

Wallace is a good player. I'm just not going to go overboard with it, like some people, because he is putting up good rebounding and blocked shot numbers.

scooterj5
03-26-2002, 10:23 PM
<< I really think Ben Wallace deserves the MVP award. >>



I heard he is God too.

MavsFanFinley
03-26-2002, 10:27 PM
Maybe Im confused. Just assume we were able to get him without using one of the big 3, wouldn't he start at pf? Raef at center still and Dirk at sf.

Hoopsmeister
03-26-2002, 10:49 PM
<< Maybe Im confused. Just assume we were able to get him without using one of the big 3, wouldn't he start at pf? Raef at center still and Dirk at sf. >>



That would make too much sense MFF. i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif

MackJack
03-27-2002, 12:49 AM
I really don't know where he will play, but he will start and that's for sure. There's no question that Ben Wallace would start on most teams in this league, Ben Wallace is among the best centers in the league.

madape
03-27-2002, 10:35 AM
That depends on your definition of &quot;among&quot;. Top ten is arguable, but I think we have a better center here in Raef. I think we are getting a little to excited about this guy. His numbers are good, but definitely inflated by playing in the east. I think we've covered the history of guys that come out of nowhere and post good rebounding and blocked shot numbers for a couple of years. Plus, if you really wanted a stump in the middle that can only rebound and block shots, I've got news for you. We have one of those guys on the roster now. His name is Shawn Bradley, and he's getting no playing time.

Shawn's numbers last year are really not too different that Wallace's this year. A slightly worse rebounder at 14.6 boards per 48, compared to 16.7 for Wallace. A slightly better shot blocker at 5.47 per 48, compared to Ben's 4.52. Offensively, both can be effective support players, but neither can take control a game. Then you have to question if Wallace at 6'9&quot; could even come close to the numbers he has this year if he played in the West. Are we really THAT much better off with Wallace at the five than even Bradley? It sounds crazy, but the numbers say its not.

The point is that the Mavericks would have to give up a ton to get Wallace, and the truth is that he probably wouldn't get that much playing time here anyway. One of the top centers in the league? Maybe top ten, maybe not. But he wouldn't start here, thats for certain. He'd probably get a little bit more time than Bradley.. probably around 15-20 minutes a game. Certainly not worth pursuing considering his cost.

Epitome22
03-27-2002, 02:10 PM
<<

<<

<<

<< I wouldn't trade any of the big 3 for him, it's just wishful thinking of what he could do for the team, not prepared to make any real sacrifices for him. >>



You have him in your mind as an MVP candidate but you wouldn't trade any of the Mavs big three for him? You wouldn't trade any of those three for the Most Valuable Player in the NBA. On the one hand, you think highly of Ben Wallace but on the other hand you don't think THAT highly of Ben Wallace. I get the feeling that you just threw that MVP stuff out there, stats included, to fortify your point, but even YOU don't REALLY believe it. What a coincidence. Neither do I. Wallace is having a big year. I congratulate him but I have a feeling he would be the backup PF on yourdallasmavericks because I don't think Nelson plays him ahead of LaFrentz or Dirk. >>



The most valuable player on one team might not be the most valuable player to another team. Dallas is much more loaded than Detroit and Big Ben does alot more for the Pistons than he would be able to for Dallas. I think very highly of Ben Wallace, I think very highly of Kobe Bryant for that matter but I wouldn't give away any of the 3 biggest pieces of my favorite team to get him. Not so much I don't believe in Ben as I don't like making sacrifices. As for being a backup, Wallace wouldn't play PF before Nowitzki but he would definitly play undersized Center before LaFrentz. >>



So, are we going from league MVP to team MVP? That's a different kettle of fish. Is he more valuable to Detroit than Stackhouse?

(E) That's the way you judge who gets the MVP award. Do you think Allen Iverson would have gotten the MVP award if he was playing for the Lakers instead of The Sixers? If the MVP award was given to the single most productive player in the league, than Shaq would get it every year. As for him being more valuable than Stackhouse, they are both the team's franchise players But I'd have to say that Wallace is more valuable than Stackhouse. Stack really isn't that good,probably not even as goods as Finley, shoots a very low percentage and is an average defender.


Wallace would get some playing time on the Mavs but not as a starter. Wallace is in a good situation for himself in Detroit. It would be different in Dallas and a lot of other places. You can probably name about three players per team that would have it over Wallace on each team, on average.

(E) You might be right that Wallace wouldn'tget time as a starter in a Mav uniform but that's more do to the style of basketball and types of basketball players Nellie prefers rather than any short comings on Ben's part. There's at least a dozen teams in the NBA that Ben would walk right into a starting job at the 4 for and a handful of others that would have him play undersized Center for them.

Wallace is a good player. I'm just not going to go overboard with it, like some people, because he is putting up good rebounding and blocked shot numbers.

(E) 1st in the league in blocks and second in the league in rebounds goes beyond good and into the great level. It also helps that he steals the ball more then some guards do (like all of ours) and is a monster, tough as nails defender. The guy has become a recnognized force in this league despite not being able to hit anything outside 10 feet. Probably the only franchise caliber player who doesen't average double digits.

>>

aexchange
03-27-2002, 02:20 PM
<< I really don't know where he will play, but he will start and that's for sure. There's no question that Ben Wallace would start on most teams in this league, Ben Wallace is among the best centers in the league. >>



welcome back RCF, Hocus-Pocus, JoeJoe

Epitome22
03-27-2002, 02:23 PM
<< That depends on your definition of &quot;among&quot;. Top ten is arguable, but I think we have a better center here in Raef.

(E) Raef like Ben is basically a big forward playing out of position and doesen't bring as much to the table as Ben does. Ben is more athletic, a much stronger rebounder, a better post defender and a better off the ball shot blocker(although it should be said that Raef is probably second or third best in the league at that) Raef is a better(much better) shooter and scorer, that's where it ends.


I think we are getting a little to excited about this guy. His numbers are good, but definitely inflated by playing in the east.

(E) I posted his stats versus Western Conference teams in comparison to his season stats in general there isn't much difference, certainly nothing noteworthy of a definite inflation.


I think we've covered the history of guys that come out of nowhere and post good rebounding and blocked shot numbers for a couple of years.

(E) Ben Wallace has been in the league 4 years. He isn't doing anything this year he wasn't doing last year. He's just getting more pub for it because his team is winning, hardly coming out of nowhere.

Plus, if you really wanted a stump in the middle that can only rebound and block shots, I've got news for you. We have one of those guys on the roster now. His name is Shawn Bradley, and he's getting no playing time.

(E) Ben Wallace is a better rebounder and probably a better shot blocker than Shawn, not to mention he is thrice the defender.

Shawn's numbers last year are really not too different that Wallace's this year. A slightly worse rebounder at 14.6 boards per 48, compared to 16.7 for Wallace. A slightly better shot blocker at 5.47 per 48, compared to Ben's 4.52. Offensively, both can be effective support players, but neither can take control a game. Then you have to question if Wallace at 6'9&quot; could even come close to the numbers he has this year if he played in the West. Are we really THAT much better off with Wallace at the five than even Bradley? It sounds crazy, but the numbers say its not.

(E) We would be a ton better off with Ben than with Shawn. We'd be a ton better off with Dwayne Schitzius at center than Shawn.


The point is that the Mavericks would have to give up a ton to get Wallace, and the truth is that he probably wouldn't get that much playing time here anyway. One of the top centers in the league? Maybe top ten, maybe not. But he wouldn't start here, thats for certain. He'd probably get a little bit more time than Bradley.. probably around 15-20 minutes a game. Certainly not worth pursuing considering his cost. >>

grbh
03-27-2002, 02:30 PM
But that is the problem with using per 48 game averages. It can scew the numbers. We all know Bradley can't play even 35 minutes a game. Wallace can, and would for most teams in the league. I don't mind using per 48 stats when comparing a guy playing say 32 and 38 minutes. In that situation it can give some valuable information. This is comparing 24 to 36 minutes. I really don't think Bradley would get 15 rebounds a game at 48 minutes.

Here are couple of Mavs statistics if broken down on the per 48 basis.
EE: 15.3 Rb
11.6 Pts
Now I wish EE would play more but nobody would expect those kind of numbers.

Wang 25.4 Pts

Granted these are extreme examples, but I think it shows some of the problem with the per 48 minute statistic.


As far as playing in the East, yea that has padded his stats but not that much. If he played in the West with a 2/3 West, 1/3 East schedule his numbers would look like this.
Pts: 6.8
Rb: 12.1
Bk: 3.25
St: 1.83

I wouldn't give up any of the big three for him but I would give up just about any other combination of players for Wallace. I guess it is all a moot point cause Detroit isn't letting him go.
Regardless if Wallace was on this team right now he would likely be leading them in Rebounds, Offensive Rebounds, Blocks, and possibly steals. There is no question in my mind he would start for the Mavs.