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kriD
06-05-2006, 05:57 AM
Stern fed up with complaints about refs

BY SAM SMITH
Chicago Tribune

It's spring, which means planting flowers, playing golf and, if you're an NBA player or coach, complaining about officiating.

There has been quite a bit of that in these playoffs, and it didn't help when the NBA rescinded a technical against Michael Finley from San Antonio's overtime game against Dallas. As their series wound down, the Suns and Mavs were sending dueling complaints to the league office about the other's alleged cheap shots and dirty play.

NBA Commissioner David Stern said he has had about enough. He believes the actions of the players and coaches trickle down to the fans and cast doubt on the game. He has quietly told the players and coaches to button it.

"We've sort of delivered the message to the coaches," Stern said. "(When) a coach loses a game because a call went the wrong way, I'm never going to say you can't let off some steam.

"When we started the season we said, `Let's tell the assistant coaches they don't have a lot to add to the dialogue with the officials,'" Stern said. "Next season's project will be to persuade the players. Since I've been commissioner there have probably been 35,000 calls a season times 22, and the next call that gets overturned because a player complained will be the first. So it's not a productive enterprise."

But if the NBA really wants to help the officials, it could do something about the block/charge, which remains the call most frequently questioned. So many players are flopping, you wonder if the "skill" is taught before dribbling in Europe.

The league installed the small circle under the basket as a restricted zone where a player cannot draw a change. But the best way to end the bogus practice is to stop calling so many charges. A charge should be called only when a defender plays good defense and moves his feet and still gets run over by the player he is guarding.

Even though zones are allowed now, hardly anyone plays them for more than a few minutes. Sliding over to get in front of a driver is hardly good defense. It's a trick, and it's time the NBA recognized that.

MavKikiNYC
06-05-2006, 06:06 AM
F*ck Stern.

The NBA needs a commissioner with more integrity, who is concerned about the integrity of the product--not just profit-generating spectacle.

I hope the owners replace him soon.

Thespiralgoeson
06-05-2006, 06:35 AM
I actually like what Stern is doing here. I'm sick and tired of hearing people bitch about the officiating, the Mavs included. I agree that something should be done about the block/charge, but other than that, I really don't think the officiating is anywhere near as bad as people make it out to be. I applaud Stern for sticking to his guns.

MightyToine
06-05-2006, 10:10 AM
I'm glad Stern put his foot down 'cause that would mean that any further "inquiries" regarding the Refs officiating during Mavs games are Null and Void.

Hopefully the Refs call this one Fairly but when it comes to Shaq, Wade, and Dirk, the Superstars ALWAYS get the calls....

vjz
06-05-2006, 10:42 AM
Let's stop the player's whining once and for all. The players job is to play, not argue with the officials.

RedWhiteAndBlue
06-05-2006, 06:07 PM
I disagree. The refs need to get it right and if they don't people have a right to complain.

dude1394
06-05-2006, 09:01 PM
I also agree that I'd like to see less whining to the refs but I'm not so sure about the "charge" being the one that causes so of a problem. There are usually about 2-5 charges a game and untold number of blocking fouls.

I find it hard to say there should be more charges called, but I don't think that's the biggest issue. What I think I see is that so much lower body stuff is called that folks just don't see and don't understand.

Players really do gripe constantly, duncan is a whining machine for example. More techs would shut that crap up. Missing games and getting suspended will shut that up.

But there are many calls where you honestly cannot find the foul, especially when it's the "body" that you just go huh?

Thespiralgoeson
06-05-2006, 09:07 PM
What I think I see is that so much lower body stuff is called that folks just don't see and don't understand.

But there are many calls where you honestly cannot find the foul, especially when it's the "body" that you just go huh?

See the entire San Antonio series. Damp, Diop, and KVH all just playing good, honest defense and Duncan just racking up fouls on them. It got to the point where Damp and Diop didn't even bother looking at the officials because they just knew it was coming no matter what they did.

The 4 fouls KVH was called for in 3 minutes was so ridiculous, I just couldn't help but laugh.

dude1394
06-05-2006, 09:16 PM
See the entire San Antonio series. Damp, Diop, and KVH all just playing good, honest defense and Duncan just racking up fouls on them. It got to the point where Damp and Diop didn't even bother looking at the officials because they just knew it was coming no matter what they did.

The 4 fouls KVH was called for in 3 minutes was so ridiculous, I just couldn't help but laugh.

Great examples...keith's were particularly atrocious.

But duncan still whined about it!! Hah...

chumdawg
06-05-2006, 10:36 PM
I guess I may be in the minority here, as I can't really remember EVER watching a game where I thought the officiating gave one team an advantage over the other. I guess I just don't pay a lot of attention to it. I know that Duncan is going to get his calls, for example, but I think that's just another aspect of the game (and certainly not an aspect that you couldn't see coming).

So in other words: yeah, quit yer bitching about the refs. Probably 75% of the time NO foul is called, so worry about that 75% three times more than you worry about the other 25%, and you will be fine.

orangedays
06-05-2006, 10:43 PM
I guess I may be in the minority here, as I can't really remember EVER watching a game where I thought the officiating gave one team an advantage over the other. I guess I just don't pay a lot of attention to it. I know that Duncan is going to get his calls, for example, but I think that's just another aspect of the game (and certainly not an aspect that you couldn't see coming).

So in other words: yeah, quit yer bitching about the refs. Probably 75% of the time NO foul is called, so worry about that 75% three times more than you worry about the other 25%, and you will be fine.

This was so well-written I needed to quote it so that a number of members on this board could read it again (and quit bitchin').

MavKikiNYC
06-05-2006, 11:22 PM
More techs would shut that crap up. Missing games and getting suspended will shut that up.

Don't forget, Dude---the NBA is selling product. They're not going to sit the Duncans and the Dirks down.

Interesting perspectives here. Especially now that Dirk is finally getting a bigger share of calls in his favor a la Duncan. Think back to a time a couple of short years ago (or even to games earlier this season) when Dirk REGULARLY got mauled on drives to the hoop and this board spent hours deconstructing why.

The absurd touch fouls at the beginning of Game 6 v. the Suns? That was pure farce. Even though it ended up working out to the Mavs' advantage, an NBA game should NEVER under any circumstances be called that way. Ever. When you see games called with such huge variation in interpretations of the rules, you can know you're either watching something that's being manipulated, or that has a quality control problem. You may even suspect both.

The phantom Duncan calls in the last series---that's not a problem?

The phantom calls that plagued Mantis throughout his career--not a problem?

The way Shaquille O'Neal is officiated this year v. every other year of his career, save his rookie season--such a vast difference. Even if you consider this year an improvement, the difference is so stark, that it makes you know what you've been seeing in the past was bogus.

The Kobe rules that rendered 81.

The Jordan rules.

The Eddie Jordan Rules--where the Wizards coach gets fined $10,000 (or was it $25K) for pointing out that the officials cost his team the game with that non-call on Lebron's game winning shot.

Mark Cuban--I don't necessarily like the style of his argument(s) over the years, but the content of his complaints about officiating is legit.

There is plenty to be critical of, and Stern should be more concerned with improving the defects than stifling dissent.

dude1394
06-05-2006, 11:25 PM
Don't forget, Dude---the NBA is selling product. They're not going to sit the Duncans and the Dirks down.


Then stern should shut up. If he doesn't want to effect his product to get it out of the game, then he should quit whining, get it! :) about it.

chumdawg
06-05-2006, 11:49 PM
Think back to a time a couple of short years ago (or even to games earlier this season) when Dirk REGULARLY got mauled on drives to the hoop and this board spent hours deconstructing why.Count me as one who thought that Dirk didn't deserve most of the calls he didn't get early on. He was dropping his head and taking it inside regardless. More often than not, he didn't have a shot ready that had even a chance to go in. Later in the year it got much better, and in the playoffs nearly all his drives had purpose.

Again, I just don't see it with the refs. Now, the rule changes, those are definitely another story. I hate the no-hand-check on the perimeter. I despise that. But it's in the rules, in black and white for everyone to see.

I just see it as a non-issue. As I've heard it said over and over and over again, if you will just call it consistently, these guys--among the best athletes in the world--will adjust. I think they call it evenly. It may not always appear that way at first blush, but usually when you go back and look at it afterwards you understand why.

Non-story.

D-Ball
06-19-2006, 01:06 AM
Well, I'm fed up with his referees. Can I contact a columnist at the Chicago Tribune and feed him my opinion? When I shut up about the referees when either the NBA gets a consistent system in place or I'll just get tired of watching the games and move on.

nashtymavsfan13
06-19-2006, 01:12 AM
I guess I may be in the minority here, as I can't really remember EVER watching a game where I thought the officiating gave one team an advantage over the other. I guess I just don't pay a lot of attention to it. I know that Duncan is going to get his calls, for example, but I think that's just another aspect of the game (and certainly not an aspect that you couldn't see coming).

So in other words: yeah, quit yer bitching about the refs. Probably 75% of the time NO foul is called, so worry about that 75% three times more than you worry about the other 25%, and you will be fine.


Did you watch tonight's game?

I hate complaining about refs too, but this has gone too far. The NBA and Stern should be ashamed.

GP
06-21-2006, 01:01 AM
Not just ashamed but he should Fire every damned official that participated in games 3, 4, 5 and 6. If he did that then this crap would never happen again. Of course, that would mean that he actually cared.

KFunk
06-21-2006, 05:04 AM
Hahaha tough luck getting people to stop complaining after that series.

Five-ofan
06-21-2006, 11:33 AM
Fuck him. Its his own damn fault. If you want to avoid the appearance of a conspiracy it might be a good idea to not assign danny crawford to any important mavs game.

raefformvp
06-21-2006, 11:34 AM
Best moment of the game last night = Stern's face on the jumbotron then an eruption of boos. He's all grinning looking around, then looks up at the jumbotron and sees that he is the reason for the boos. Classic.

Five-ofan
06-21-2006, 11:40 AM
1-13 how do you assign him to that game if you want to not appear like the mavs are getting screwed. 1 and effing 13.

MavKikiNYC
06-21-2006, 12:48 PM
Best moment of the game last night = Stern's face on the jumbotron then an eruption of boos. He's all grinning looking around, then looks up at the jumbotron and sees that he is the reason for the boos. Classic.

Still disappointed not to see him wearing several plates of nachos.

ddh33
06-21-2006, 01:13 PM
If Mr. Stern is fed up with the complaints, then he needs to do something to ensure that everyone is playing on a level field. If it's a foul when Wade has the ball, then it's a foul when Rawle Marshall has the ball. Unfortuntely, the NBA has about 20 different standards. With that kind of system, complaining is only natural.

Knickfan
06-21-2006, 01:43 PM
I guess I may be in the minority here, as I can't really remember EVER watching a game where I thought the officiating gave one team an advantage over the other. I guess I just don't pay a lot of attention to it. I know that Duncan is going to get his calls, for example, but I think that's just another aspect of the game (and certainly not an aspect that you couldn't see coming).

So in other words: yeah, quit yer bitching about the refs. Probably 75% of the time NO foul is called, so worry about that 75% three times more than you worry about the other 25%, and you will be fine.


Good job, and this is so true. The refs have ALWAYS been inconsistent, this is nothing new.

Dooby
06-21-2006, 02:51 PM
Isn't it great that in the NHL playoffs, you see the same three or four refs every game? Every game for years. Isn't it great that you see the same NFL refs in the Super Bowl every year? Isn't it great that everybody knows those are the best officials in the game?

It isn't that hard Stern.

Send a letter to every NBA team asking to rank who they think are the top 10 officials. You will end up with a list of about twenty or so officials. Those are the ones that ref in the playoffs, not Violet F'ing Palmer. And no one below the top six ever refs a finals game. Oh, and you publically name the refs for a playoff game as soon as possible, rather than keeping everybody guessing until a couple of hours before the game. That means in the playoffs you publically state who will ref the games 1-7 ahead of time. That way, it won't look like you are throwing out Dick Bavetta just to get the home team a little help.

sike
06-21-2006, 03:15 PM
1-13 how do you assign him to that game if you want to not appear like the mavs are getting screwed. 1 and effing 13.
that is crazy.

EricaLubarsky
06-21-2006, 03:40 PM
Round 1
Game 1- Dick Bavetta, Sean Corbin, Joe Forte W home
Game 2- James Capers, Bennett Salvatore, Tom Washington W home
Game 3- Tony Brothers, Joe Crawford, Derrick Stafford W away
Game 4- Bob Delaney, Steve Javie, David Jones W away

Round 2
Game 1- Dan Crawford, Greg Willard, Mark Wunderlich L away
Game 2- Steve Javie, David Jones, Eddie F. Rush W away
Game 3- Joe Forte, Bernie Frye, Ron Garretson W home
Game 4- Dick Bavetta, Jimmy Clark, Derrick Stafford W home
Game 5- Joe Forte, Bernie Fryer, Ron Garretson L away
Game 6- Mike Callahan, Ken Mauer, Bennett Salvatore L home
Game 7- Dick Bavetta, Bob Delaney, Steve Javie W away

WCF
Game 1- Joe Forte, Bernie Fryer, Greg Willard L home
Game 2- Jimmy Clark, Joe Crawford , Joe DeRosa W home
Game 3- Mike Callahan, Steve Javie, Eddie F. Rush W away
Game 4-Ron Garretson, Bennett Salvatore, Tom Washington L away
Game 5- Dan Crawford, Ken Mauer, Jack Nies W home
Game 6- Dick Bavetta, Bob Delaney, Bernie Fryer W away

Finals
Game 1- Joe Crawford, Joe DeRosa, Bennett Salvatore W home
Game 2- Bob Delaney, Steve Javie, Eddie F. Rush W home
Game 3- Dan Crawford, Ken Mauer, Jack Nies L away
Game 4- Dick Bavetta, Mike Callahan, Bernie Fryer L away
Game 5- Joe Crawford, Joe DeRosa, Bennett Salvatore L away
Game 6- Dan Crawford, Steve Javie, Eddie F. Rush L home

By number of games reffed in the playoffs this year and by record
Steve Javie- 5-1

Dick Bavetta- 4-1
Bennett Salvatore- 2-3
Bernie Frye- 2-3

Bob Delaney- 4-0
Joe Crawford- 3-1
Joe Forte- 2-2
Eddie F. Rush- 2-2
Bernie Fryer- 1-3
Dan Crawford- 1-3

Joe DeRosa- 2-1
Ron Garretson- 1-2
Mike Callahan- 1-2
Mike Callahan- 1-2
Ken Mauer- 1-2

Jimmy Clark- 2-0
Derrick Stafford- 2-0
David Jones- 2-0
Tom Washington- 1-1
Greg Willard- 0-2

Sean Corbin- 1-0
James Capers- 1-0
Tony Brothers- 1-0
Mark Wunderlich- 0-1

dalmations202
06-21-2006, 03:58 PM
Just a FYI:

Stern may be fed up with the complaints about the refs, but I am fed up with Stern.

Which do you think will happen first?
1)The complaints against the refs stopping
2) Stern getting fired (as he should)
3) Both him and I dying before anything changes

ddh33
06-21-2006, 04:12 PM
David Stern will never get fired. This is HIS league. He's made everyone money, and that means more to them than the state of the game.

My hope is that Mr. Stern will retire. At which point, I hope that the next commissioner, whether it be Adam Silver or someone else, will be honesty enough to care for the integrity of the game.

dalmations202
06-21-2006, 04:26 PM
David Stern will never get fired. This is HIS league. He's made everyone money, and that means more to them than the state of the game.

My hope is that Mr. Stern will retire. At which point, I hope that the next commissioner, whether it be Adam Silver or someone else, will be honesty enough to care for the integrity of the game.
Good luck...........

Five-ofan
06-21-2006, 05:37 PM
Really has he made the nba money? Magic and bird did, and jordan did. But Has he ever done anything? 3 of the lowest rated finals ever have happened in the last 5 years. Is the nba making more than it did 2 years ago? Sure but its his fault that it ever got to that point. Its like what larry brown does. He destroys they league(i give stern no credit for bird/magic or jordan) and then he makes it marginally better and everyone forgets that it never should have gotten as bad as it did. These rule changes were 10 years too late. Hell they werent even actually rules changes other than the defensive 3 seconds.

One other complaint i have, it is about a specific call and i dont want to put it in the other bitching threads because everyone does it and it never gets called. Over the back. I would love for that to be the next "point of emphasis" for officials. What is the point of boxing out if anyone can just go over your back. It NEVER gets called. Why? This isnt new btw ive wondered about this for 5 years. I really think it goes back to rodman who was so talented that he could get his arm over the guy without making contact. It went from there to where now no one gets called for just slamming into the guy from behind.

Dooby
06-21-2006, 06:00 PM
Stern is viewed by the owners with great reverence. They think he is a messiah. Don't forget that no only has he made the league a lot of money, but he really hammered down expenses. The NBA was the first with a salary cap; the first with a real luxury tax. If you own a team and don't make money in this league, it is because you don't want to or you are a moron.

His problem is he has also gotten very lucky. Magic; Bird; Jordan. Nike; Reebok; gatorade. ESPN; Cable. They propped up the league and increased its visibility and Stern never lifted a finger. Unfortunately, I think that made him rather arrogant and passive. When things go south, he denies there is a problem and he waits too long to address the issues. Take for example the thug, gansta perception of the NBA and the rampant influx of High schoolers. If he had addressed the issue early on, there would have been far less criticism than there was and the league would be better for it. I think the officiating is just as big a problem.

EricaLubarsky
06-21-2006, 06:16 PM
Didn't Linda McMahon (the CEO of WWE) talk about how she admired the way that Stern promoted the NBA as an entertainment sport?

Five-ofan
06-21-2006, 06:17 PM
The problem is there is no simple solution for the officiating. I have griped probably more than anyone on this board about the officiating today but i do not for a moment believe that it was fixed. The refs just suck. I dont really know what the nba can do about it. Maybe you could do some kind of a quick review system, say give the teams 3 20s instead of 1 and use them like challenges in football but then the game would take forever plus even in the nfl where the majority of calls are much more cut and dried mistakes are still made after replay alot. back to the problem of ref terribleness, the first and foremost thing they have got to do is fire the older officials. Dick bevatta this means you. Anyone over 40 at the oldest just cant run with these guys.

Make every official do a running test at the begging and end of the year to be eligible to ref that year or the next for the end of the year test. I would say the running should be 2 miles in 14 minutes at the very least. You cant make that you can go home. Next make every official take an eye exam. Anyone who scores less than a 20 20 is gone. The nba is hard enough to officiate if you can see let alone if you have bad vision. Finally give them a review of their ALL of their games on film and tell them every call that was right and/or wrong(do this privately). Also, teach them positioning. What i have noticed largely is that officials have been out of position ALOT. Give them one last written test and then you are good to go. That would have to improve the officiating some. Oh yeah dont have officials who are 40 feet away overrule the one who is 2 feet away.

MavKikiNYC
06-21-2006, 07:55 PM
The problem is there is no simple solution for the officiating. I have griped probably more than anyone on this board about the officiating today but i do not for a moment believe that it was fixed. The refs just suck. I dont really know what the nba can do about it. Maybe you could do some kind of a quick review system, say give the teams 3 20s instead of 1 and use them like challenges in football but then the game would take forever plus even in the nfl where the majority of calls are much more cut and dried mistakes are still made after replay alot. back to the problem of ref terribleness, the first and foremost thing they have got to do is fire the older officials. Dick bevatta this means you. Anyone over 40 at the oldest just cant run with these guys.

Make every official do a running test at the begging and end of the year to be eligible to ref that year or the next for the end of the year test. I would say the running should be 2 miles in 14 minutes at the very least. You cant make that you can go home. Next make every official take an eye exam. Anyone who scores less than a 20 20 is gone. The nba is hard enough to officiate if you can see let alone if you have bad vision. Finally give them a review of their ALL of their games on film and tell them every call that was right and/or wrong(do this privately). Also, teach them positioning. What i have noticed largely is that officials have been out of position ALOT. Give them one last written test and then you are good to go. That would have to improve the officiating some. Oh yeah dont have officials who are 40 feet away overrule the one who is 2 feet away.

Oh yeah, and....put snipers up in the cat walks of NBA arenas with shoot-to-kill instructions for missed calls.