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Five-ofan
07-12-2006, 12:51 PM
I think this deserves its own thread. IMO these are the top 10 peak pgs.

1- Oscar Robertson(1961-1964)-in the best player ever discussion averaged a triple double over a 4 year stretch. Averaged a ridiculous 30-10-10 during that streak. He was a freak.

2- Magic(1987-1990)- Also in the best player ever discussion, his name says it all Averaged roughly 22-12 and 6.8 during that 4 year stretch.

3-Isiah(1984-1987)-the horrible gm/coach that he is shouldnt make people forget the absolute stud player that he was. Averaged 21-11 and 4 during that period. Was great for a long time around that as well.

4. KJ(1989-1992)- at his peak he was just a tick below isiah at his. He averaged roughly 21 - 11- 3.8. How he isnt in the HOF is beyond me.

5-Tiny archibald-(1972-1974) His 34 - 11 season in 1973 is one of the most amazing seasons ever and he had one great and one solid season right around it.

6- Gary payton-(1999-2002)He averaged roughly 22 - 9 and 5 for a 4 year period from 1999 to 2002. There isnt much of a dropoff from his peak to really good years as he had 7 more years that were almost equally as good. Not to mention that he was the premier defensive pg in the league. Sadly his inepitude recently while hanging on for a ring has made people forget the absolute monster he used to be.

7-Tim Hardaway(1991-1993) Averaged about 22.5 10 and 4. Wow i knew he was good but didnt realize he was that good.

8-Fat Lever(1987-1990)- For a 4 year stretch until he got hurt he was basically a poor mans magic. Averaged 19 pts 7.5 assists and 9 boards during that stretch. He was very good.

9- Bob Cousy(1952-57) Averaged basically 20 -7 and 6. Gets a pass on the shooting percentage because everyone shot poorly then.

10-Stockton(1989-1991) Averaged a pretty remarkable 17-14 on 52% shooting. BTW the year before he shot a ridiculous 57.4% from the field.



Honorable mention-Allen Iverson(2004-2006)I know he isnt a pure pg and i took off some points for that or he would be higher but averaged roughly 30-7-4 and 2 steals during this 3 year stretch plus he had another 4 year run that he averaged roughly 30-5-4-2.5 in. I know alot of people hate him but the guy is a stud. I took him out because he isnt really a pg but if he were he would definitely be top 10.
Steve Nash(2004-2006) Best 3 consecutive years put up a solid 16-10. Sorry but thats not enough to get on this list. Jason Kidd(2002-2004) Very good player who averaged roughly 16-9 and 7 during this stretch.

Im sure there are some others but these are the ones i found and i think overall they will stand up pretty well.

capitalcity
07-12-2006, 01:03 PM
Cue the Nash nut-huggers...

Five-ofan
07-12-2006, 01:10 PM
I should add that walt frazier should be an honorable mention. From 1970-72 he averaged roughly 22-7-6.5. He would be second on my honorable mention list.

GP
07-12-2006, 02:19 PM
I understand where this thread is coming from and why since I read the other thread. I have got to say though that both threads are kind of faulty. Stats don't tell the whole story of the impact a point guard can make on a team. I think you need a different formula to guage this. Right now I am thinking it should look something like this:

[total points + total assists + total rebounds + total steals - turnovers (these include playoffs) / total games (including playoffs)] X (reg season win percentage) X (total playoff wins / total # wins required to get championship)

Now if you do this for the top point guards and come up with a list similar to yours then the formula needs to be scrapped. Anything that results in Magic being #2 is just plain silly. Any list that has KJ outperforming Cousy, Stockton or Kidd is just plain wrong. KJ was never even better than DJ. Total these up for their careers and you should see something like Magic #1, Cousy #2, Stockton #3, Kidd #4, DJ #5. Any list that celebrates numbers over results is flawed, flawed, flawed. The role of a point guard is to be the catalyst. That doesn't necessarily mean being a guy that gets a ton of points or assists. It means wins. Pro basketball is all about wins. Winning championships should be the number 1 barometer. If you think about my formula a person who doesn't win a single playoff game gets a big zero for the year. Yeah, I know the formula needs to be tweaked. I just made the danged thing up. I am gong to do more research into this. I'll let you guys know. First off though I have got to get outside to start painting. If I don't get anything done today my wife is going to be pissed.

For the career:
Summation of: [total points + total assists + total rebounds + total steals - turnovers (these include playoffs) / total games (including playoffs)] X (reg season win percentage) X (total playoff wins / total # wins required to get championship)

(does anybody know how to make a summation symbol in this format?)

GP
07-12-2006, 02:39 PM
I have tweaked the formula some:

[avg. points + avg. assts + avg. rebounds + avg. blocks + avg. steals - avg. turnovers (regular season only)] x reg. season win percentage + [avg. points + avg. assts + avg. rebounds + avg. blocks + avg. steals - avg. turnovers (playoffs only)] x (# of playoff wins/ # of required victories to a championship)

This formula can be adapted to penalize poor fg %, etc. I think win percentage takes care of a lot of it though.

GP
07-12-2006, 02:53 PM
Using this formula I just compared Steve Nash's season to Jason Terry's.
Terry = 38.4
Nash = 50.7

I really though Terry would do better using this formula since the Mavs did win 14 playoff games.

Contrast that to one of Magic's best years when the Lakers won 65 games and the NBA championship and Magic won the regular season and Finals MVP.

Magic = 73.1

spreedom
07-12-2006, 03:46 PM
I honestly think it's too tough to rank point guards because there is no sure-fire, objective measurement of what makes a good PG. Is it passing alone? Running the break? Containing the opposition's PG? Efficient scoring? I can't really decide on one.. and I don't think any point was the all-time greatest at ALL of those.. too tough.

However, I would argue that Clyde Frazier could beat any of them one-on-one. That guy was a STUD. I almost think he could have beaten Jordan or Dr. J in their primes.. that's just fun to think about, though.. there's no real reason I believe it.

V2M
07-12-2006, 04:17 PM
For the record, I was a bigtime Nash fan when he was here (I like many others in this forum, truly believed a simple Walker for a big man trade would have made us favorites that year!). I was extremely disappointed he didn't sign with us (whatever may be the reasons, I don't care!). Now though, he belongs to the enemy camp and I hate him with a passion. But to just be intellectually honest to myself, I gotta' admit, the dude's got game! His past two years have got to be right up there (stats or not!) among the best for any PG. This is not just my opinion or a few Nash fans' opinions, obviously it's the opinion of a majority of basketball followers around the nation. Or how could you explain the year that Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk or Billups had and yet it was Nash who won the award?!

2 MVPs, 2 First team All-NBAs, 2 WCFs, 2 All-Stars all in 2 back-to-back years!

Outside of Magic, who else?

Now does that make him a Top 5 all-time, may be not! But he's already acclaimed as Top-10 and if by any chance he ends up having a long career a la Stockton, watch out!!

Scoobay
07-12-2006, 05:01 PM
For the record, I was a bigtime Nash fan when he was here (I like many others in this forum, truly believed a simple Walker for a big man trade would have made us favorites that year!). I was extremely disappointed he didn't sign with us (whatever may be the reasons, I don't care!). Now though, he belongs to the enemy camp and I hate him with a passion. But to just be intellectually honest to myself, I gotta' admit, the dude's got game! His past two years have got to be right up there (stats or not!) among the best for any PG. This is not just my opinion or a few Nash fans' opinions, obviously it's the opinion of a majority of basketball followers around the nation. Or how could you explain the year that Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk or Billups had and yet it was Nash who won the award?!

2 MVPs, 2 First team All-NBAs, 2 WCFs, 2 All-Stars all in 2 back-to-back years!

Outside of Magic, who else?

Now does that make him a Top 5 all-time, may be not! But he's already acclaimed as Top-10 and if by any chance he ends up having a long career a la Stockton, watch out!!

uh, watch out for what? Nash is not anywhere near stockton - my goodness, the man was having 12-14 ast/game seasons, all time steals leader, etc. Stockton played in a time when there were other great pgs already mentioned - magic, zeke, GP, KJ, etc. who are the other 'great pg's' of Nash's era? Kidd? Nash is fun to watch but not in the same class.

V2M
07-12-2006, 05:15 PM
uh, watch out for what? Nash is not anywhere near stockton - my goodness, the man was having 12-14 ast/game seasons, all time steals leader, etc. Stockton played in a time when there were other great pgs already mentioned - magic, zeke, GP, KJ, etc. who are the other 'great pg's' of Nash's era? Kidd? Nash is fun to watch but not in the same class.
'Watch out' was said in the context of "he's already Top-10 and if he plays the game as long as Stockton did, he could get into the Top-5 all-time!".

As for comparing him with Stockton, I never said he's better than Stockton overall. I just said the past two years of Nash have been as good as any that Stockton may've had or even better. You could quote me as many ast/game stats as you want, the answer is simple: It's not just my opinion! There were many NBA greats and other basketball followers who've acclaimed Nash's past two years as simply phenomenal and on par with the best that any great PG has ever had (except may be Magic!).

Five-ofan
07-12-2006, 05:23 PM
Or how could you explain the year that Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk or Billups had and yet it was Nash who won the award?!


The people that vote for mvp are morons. Quite simply that is the best explanation. There was not one single measure by which steve nash deserved the mvp last year. The year before at least they had the best record even though he wasnt the best player on his own team. As for your formula gp, i agree stats arent everything but to say that KJ wasnt better than DJ(who was dang good himself btw) is just nuts. KJ has i believe 3 second team all nbas when playing against arguably the best pg ever. IMO Magic and Oscar are 1 and 1a or vice versa. Statistically Oscar was alot better but magic was just magic. As for saying hey lets just ignore the stats, the only guy on this list who i could even remotely begin to apply that logic too is Fat lever. All of the other guys won. At least as much as nash. In general the "lets just ignore the stats" argument is a weak attempt to justify making claims that arent defendable by anything but vague memories and cliches.

MavKikiNYC
07-12-2006, 05:34 PM
I'm guessing this list is based on production as measured by big stats.

Lever and Hardaway are impostors though.

Jason Kidd and Maurice Cheeks are glaring omissions.

Five-ofan
07-12-2006, 05:37 PM
As i said in my last post, Lever is the guy who is most guilty of the good stats bad team thing. THough yes this is mostly based on stats as in general they are the best way to measure players. Are they 100% accurate? No but they are much more accurate than the general oh i think such and such is better argument. Hardaway was in a seriously run and gun team but they were good so i dont think I would call him a fraud. The point of this originally was coming up with people better than nash has been the last couple of seasons. Once i got past around 15 i just decided to make it a top 10.

Rhylan
07-13-2006, 12:06 AM
Stockton 10th... can't compute... dallas-mavs.com shutdown in progress...

nashtymavsfan13
07-13-2006, 12:10 AM
Stockton is way too low.

sike
07-13-2006, 12:56 AM
Stockton 10th... can't compute... dallas-mavs.com shutdown in progress...
indeed.


Kidd > Payton.

screw the numbers...at no point would I have rather had Payton than Kidd....except maybe Kidd's rookie season.

#1MavsFan
07-13-2006, 01:09 AM
Wow, you have tim hardaway in your top 10 pg's of all time but not Kidd? That makes you lose all credibility.

I was about to make a new list but I remembered this list that was done pretty well by espn.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards

I would slide KJ into 9th though, and move out Nash.

sike
07-13-2006, 01:15 AM
well this is a peak years thread....which I don't really understand the reason for ;)

sike
07-13-2006, 01:17 AM
I would slide KJ into 9th though, and move out Nash.
KJ was certainly a more complete player.

chumdawg
07-13-2006, 01:17 AM
No love for D-Harp?

sike
07-13-2006, 01:19 AM
No love for D-Harp?
no room on that list my brother....I wonder where he would rank all time though....

#1MavsFan
07-13-2006, 01:22 AM
I think we can all agree he'd be top 30 but higher? I don't know.

sike
07-13-2006, 01:23 AM
I think we can all agree he'd be top 30 but higher? I don't know.
I think I can agree that I have no clue where he would come in....

#1MavsFan
07-13-2006, 01:30 AM
Yeah it's tought to judge him but he did have one amazing season when he got 20, 7, 3 and shot around 49% from the field. And than he had a bunch of "good" seasons.

nashtymavsfan13
07-13-2006, 02:02 AM
Wow, you have tim hardaway in your top 10 pg's of all time but not Kidd? That makes you lose all credibility.

I was about to make a new list but I remembered this list that was done pretty well by espn.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards

I would slide KJ into 9th though, and move out Nash.

That's a pretty good list. I definetly think Stockton is a top 5 PG of all time.

spreedom
07-13-2006, 02:54 AM
Stockton is definitely top 3 of all-time. Say what you want about championships and "dirty play" all you want.. but the dude was efficient as hell, and had longevity enough to be the all-time leader in both assists and steals. Personally, I'd probably put him at the top of the list, but I think Clyde Frazier is the best defensive point ever.

Tokey41
07-13-2006, 03:03 AM
Oscar was the best PLAYER ever, I mean he averaged a triple double, several times... that alone says it all for me personally although there are a few variables to consider, hes underated in the best player discussion imo though. You know if James can average a triple double just once I might have to consider putting him in the "who the best player is" category since to be perfectly honest James is going against greater competition and it would be much more impressive in modern times to average a triple double.

Also Stockton should be higher because of his amazing playmaking skills, thats what I think a pure point guard was supposed to be and he excelled at it. I cant believe you have some guy named Fat ahead of him.

What the hell is with these names? I mean I didnt want to say anything because I loved his game so much but Magic Johnson is a porn stars name. And Fat?? That cannot be his real name, who calls their kid FAT!?

nashtymavsfan13
07-13-2006, 03:13 AM
What the hell is with these names? I mean I didnt want to say anything because I loved his game so much but Magic Johnson is a porn stars name. And Fat?? That cannot be his real name, who calls their kid FAT!?

Magic's real name is Ervin and Fat Lever's real name is Lafayette, but those names aren't much better :D

nashtymavsfan13
07-13-2006, 03:14 AM
I think my top 3 have to be Magic, Big O, and Stockton.

chumdawg
07-13-2006, 03:32 AM
No love for Brad Davis? His jersey hangs in the rafter of the hallowed AAC, for chrissakes!

sike
07-13-2006, 10:33 AM
bit.

Five-ofan
07-13-2006, 12:08 PM
The reason for this thread was when someone mentioned in another thread that nash's last two years were as good as anyone other than maybe magic as a pg in the history of the nba. I decided to look some things up. Nash's best 3 year consecutive run is the last 3 years which he has averaged a remarkably average 16-10. I started looking at other guys best years and seeing how they stacked up. Numbers wise nash isnt top 15. You could argue impact on the game though since ALL of his value is offensive i would say that the vast (like say 99.8%) of his impact is felt through stats. I dont know what i have to say to get it through some of your heads that the other 10 great years stockton had have no bearing on this list. Overall for career i would rank him 4th behind magic, big O and isiah. But he never really had a peak that was above the rest of his career as most others did so this list being about people at their best hurts him alot.

nah-vit-ski
07-13-2006, 12:55 PM
what about Mr. Clutch, Jerry West?

Five-ofan
07-13-2006, 01:18 PM
i thought he was a 2 otherwise he would be on this list.

V2M
07-13-2006, 01:26 PM
The reason for this thread was when someone mentioned in another thread that nash's last two years were as good as anyone other than maybe magic as a pg in the history of the nba. I decided to look some things up. Nash's best 3 year consecutive run is the last 3 years which he has averaged a remarkably average 16-10. I started looking at other guys best years and seeing how they stacked up. Numbers wise nash isnt top 15. You could argue impact on the game though since ALL of his value is offensive i would say that the vast (like say 99.8%) of his impact is felt through stats. I dont know what i have to say to get it through some of your heads that the other 10 great years stockton had have no bearing on this list. Overall for career i would rank him 4th behind magic, big O and isiah. But he never really had a peak that was above the rest of his career as most others did so this list being about people at their best hurts him alot.

Good work, 5-0! Can you breakdown the stats to see how Nash's last 2 yrs compare to others' best 2 back-to-back years?

Five-ofan
07-13-2006, 01:31 PM
Good work, 5-0! Can you breakdown the stats to see how Nash's last 2 yrs compare to others' best 2 back-to-back years?
The numbers posted are for best either 3 or 4 years runs but sure why not(im bored anyway) I will look up some numbers. Im not gonna rank them again im just gonna list the ones that i feel are better than nash's and nash's. I havent looked this up yet but based on what i saw yesterday i will be surprised if i cant find 20 pgs who have had better back 2 back years. BTW on the payton vs Kidd debate without looking up head 2 head numbers, when they were both in their prime i remember payton ALWAYS killing kidd.

V2M
07-13-2006, 01:49 PM
The numbers posted are for best either 3 or 4 years runs but sure why not(im bored anyway) I will look up some numbers. Im not gonna rank them again im just gonna list the ones that i feel are better than nash's and nash's. I havent looked this up yet but based on what i saw yesterday i will be surprised if i cant find 20 pgs who have had better back 2 back years. BTW on the payton vs Kidd debate without looking up head 2 head numbers, when they were both in their prime i remember payton ALWAYS killing kidd.

Sorry... DP!

V2M
07-13-2006, 01:52 PM
The numbers posted are for best either 3 or 4 years runs but sure why not(im bored anyway) I will look up some numbers. Im not gonna rank them again im just gonna list the ones that i feel are better than nash's and nash's. I havent looked this up yet but based on what i saw yesterday i will be surprised if i cant find 20 pgs who have had better back 2 back years. BTW on the payton vs Kidd debate without looking up head 2 head numbers, when they were both in their prime i remember payton ALWAYS killing kidd.

Thx. Reason I was asking for 2 years obviously is 'cuz I know Nash wasn't as good (he didn't make the all-star team!) in his final year with us and that may be diluting his 3yr average.

Speaking of Payton always killing Kidd, hasn't Nash always killed Kidd in their head 2 heads.

Five-ofan
07-13-2006, 02:35 PM
To begin Im gonna post Nash's "mvp" seasons numbers as that will be the baseline for anyone else i post. anyone who hasnt had better back to back seasons will not be posted. This time im gonna do it in more of a table format so dont think that one being above someone else means i am ranking them higher, its just the order i am listing them. Nash will be first so I can see who is better easier(hopefully you will be able to as well.) These will be over 2 year runs. So i doubt seriously anyone will have actually averaged exactly what they do over the 2 years for one season on its own. If a category is left blank than it wasnt a stat yet.

Player -------- PPG -- APG --- RPG -- SPG -- BPG-- TOPG -- FG%-- FT%-- 3pt%
Nash(05,06) 17.23 10.95 3.78 0.88 0.12 3.38 50.76 90.52 43.57

Big O(61-62) 30.65 10.59 11.34 -.-- -.-- -.-- 47.57 81.21 -.--

Magic(89-90) 22.40 12.15 7.24 1.73 .36 3.85 49.45 90.00 35.56

Isiah(84-85) 21.28 12.50 4.22 2.40 .36 3.74 46.01 77.00 28.65

KJ(90-91) 22.50 10.85 3.61 1.72 .17 3.55 50.74 84.02 20.00

Tiny(72-73) 31.18 10.33 2.85 -.-- -.-- -.-- 48.71 83.39 -.--

Gp(00-01) 23.63 8.53 5.53 1.74 .27 2.70 45.20 74.90 35.23



For now i need to go and this is as far as i got. i will edit it either later today or tommorow to include at least 15 guys if there are that many who are better. I can however tell you with complete and utter certainity at this time that Walt frazier, Fat lever, Tim hardaway, and john stockton had better consecutive statistical seasons than nashs last 2. Cousy did too but his % makes it arguable. BTW On KJ he only took 85 3s over the entire two year period.

I havent included any combo guys yet with the possible exception of the Big O. So far these 6 have had easily a better 2 year run than steve nash. Unfortunately im hungry and im not gonna skip a meal to continue looking this up so we shall have to wait.

sike
07-13-2006, 02:50 PM
Thx. Reason I was asking for 2 years obviously is 'cuz I know Nash wasn't as good (he didn't make the all-star team!) in his final year with us and that may be diluting his 3yr average.

Speaking of Payton always killing Kidd, hasn't Nash always killed Kidd in their head 2 heads.
and hasn't Bibbly always killed nash....wow...Bibby is a better point guard than Nash and Kidd then...sheesh.

V2M
07-13-2006, 03:57 PM
and hasn't Bibbly always killed nash....wow...Bibby is a better point guard than Nash and Kidd then...sheesh.
That was my point! Head 2 heads among great players can't be the criteria to decide who's better.

sike
07-13-2006, 04:03 PM
That was my point! Head 2 heads among great players can't be the criteria to decide who's better.
you ask any coach, "Who would you rather have in his prime, Kidd or Payton?"....and I tell you it takes most of them less than half a second to answer Kidd.

V2M
07-13-2006, 04:18 PM
you ask any coach, "Who would you rather have in his prime, Kidd or Payton?"....and I tell you it takes most of them less than half a second to answer Kidd.
You could be right... I'm no coach, but I'd do the same.

Now the interesting question is how many of 'em would pick Kidd in his prime over Nash in his prime!

nashtymavsfan13
07-13-2006, 05:16 PM
Kidd overall is definetly better than Payton.

Five-ofan
07-13-2006, 06:09 PM
I dont think you guys are giving payton the credit he deserves. Jkidd was a very good defender but payton was better. Payton was a better scorer and shooter as well. Kidd was a better rebounder and better on the break. Arguments can be made both ways but its not the landslide some of you are acting like it is.

nashtymavsfan13
07-13-2006, 09:40 PM
I dont think you guys are giving payton the credit he deserves. Jkidd was a very good defender but payton was better. Payton was a better scorer and shooter as well. Kidd was a better rebounder and better on the break. Arguments can be made both ways but its not the landslide some of you are acting like it is.

It's not a landslide, but Kidd is better.

Tokey41
07-13-2006, 11:31 PM
I'd still pick Kidd, I think hes just better overall whereas Payton will always be remembered for his amazing defense and big mouth.

Five-ofan
07-14-2006, 01:13 PM
Everyone keeps saying overall. Kidd was a better rebounder, ft shooter, and better on the break. Payton was better at everything else. Thats not a hell of alot for all of the overall talk. Payton ran an offense in the half court better, scored better, and was a good bit better defensively. If anything overall would be a mark in paytons favor.

Tokey41
07-14-2006, 02:28 PM
He was better at getting technicals too, does that count?

Five-ofan
07-14-2006, 02:30 PM
I think it is truly sad that a player as good as gp will be remembered for hanging on too long and talking too much.

Tokey41
07-14-2006, 02:44 PM
We all know he was a great defender, my point is he does have problems keeping the mouth shut, remember this year when he had problems with Wade getting too many touches? They are lucky the team didn't implode there but Shaq put him in his place. Some things never change though, and he just had a hard time letting the all star do his thing, that would be like Stack bitching about Dirk getting too many touches.

Like I said, he will be remembered for his defense, big mouth, and maybe even his chemistry problems. Kidd holds a team together and leads, Payton potentially tears them apart.

Scoobay
07-14-2006, 02:52 PM
We all know he was a great defender, my point is he does have problems keeping the mouth shut, remember this year when he had problems with Wade getting too many touches? They are lucky the team didn't implode there but Shaq put him in his place. Some things never change though, and he just had a hard time letting the all star do his thing, that would be like Stack bitching about Dirk getting too many touches.

Like I said, he will be remembered for his defense, big mouth, and maybe even his chemistry problems. Kidd holds a team together and leads, Payton potentially tears them apart.

so what exactly has Kidd led his team to? nothing more than GP has. I have to agree with 5-0... seems that some people just don't remember GP in his prime. You can argue which you'd rather take but it's a lot closer than some here seem to think and I'm not even sure Kidd comes out on top.

SeriousSummer
07-14-2006, 03:17 PM
Mo Cheeks ought to be on the list in place of Gary Payton. Other than that, the ESPN list has it right.

Five-ofan
07-14-2006, 03:18 PM
If you are reffering to the argument they had in the bulls series it wasnt about wade getting too many touches. It started with wade yelling at gp because Gp PASSED UP A SHOT. That is nothing like stack. I guarantee you no one has complained about him passing up shots. Then GP basically said look here youngun, Im gary freakin payton ive been playing basketball in the nba since before you picked up a basketball, dont tell me what to do. Then it went from there. The Sonics team that lost to the unbelievable jordan bulls that were the best team in nba history would have DISMANTLED any team that Kidd has ever played on. The only reason that gp doesnt have a ring as the best player on a team is shawn kemps implosion.

Tokey41
07-14-2006, 11:40 PM
Kidds best season would probably be 01-02, his stats? 37.3 min, .391 FG, .321 3P, .814 FT, 7.3 REB, 9.9 AST, 2.13 STL, 3.49 TO, 14.7 PPG.

Paytons best season (99-00)? 41.8 min, .448 FG, .340 3P, .735 FT, 6.5 REB, 8.9 AST, 1.87 STL,2.73 TO, 24.2 PPG.

Like I said before... I think I would still go with Kidd because he didnt even need to score to be effective, he was more of what a point guard should be. I gave Payton his props so don't complain about how people dont give him respect. I just dont like those mouthy hot shots that arent even that hot in contrast to other all star caliber players (and sadly the guy still talks trash at this age).

You know Kidd went up against the dynasty Spurs right? They arent the Bulls but considering Kidd was running the team with Kmart besides him (back when people thought he was good) and not much else making it to the finals just to get crushed was impressive. And now that Kmart doesnt have Kidd what happened? Hes terrible, but got a huge contract because of Kidd. Kidd also helps make terribly streaky players look really good, in fact I think Richard Jefferson could be one of those people. Who did Payton help make better?

As for that debate between him and Wade it was clear Payton was in the wrong because all I remember is everyone backing Wade on the topic. Must have been a crucial shot. It stirred up an argument, he stirs up arguments all the time no matter where he is. If he wasnt so old i'd call him a punk, I have more respect for Kidd because at least he doesnt pick up those uneccessary technicals and complain about everything that doesnt go his way.

Five-ofan
07-16-2006, 04:43 PM
Everyone backed wade because hes dwayne effing wade. If dirk and Darrel Armstrong get in an argument, everyone better effing side with dirk. As to kidd vs payton, Payton was better at running an offense in the half court. He was a MUCH(this cant be overstated how much) better scorer. Kidd could outrebound him and run a fast break better. Payton was better at literally EVERYTHING else. As for losing in the finals, Payton was on i believe a 63 win sonics team that went through a tough western conference. The nets were only in the finals because the east sucked. Jason kidd was a great player but he was not better than gary payton at his best.

#1MavsFan
07-16-2006, 05:21 PM
The numbers don't back up just how good kidd was. You have to watch him to believe it. Kidd always overachieved with lesser talent around him.

Five-ofan
07-16-2006, 05:36 PM
He overachieved because he played in a god awful division. If he had stayed in the west we wouldnt be having this discussion. Kidd hasnt had his insane decline yet and we dont know if he will hold on forever like gp did but i would imagine the feelings about this matchup might change after he does.

mcsluggo
07-17-2006, 03:29 PM
...
You know Kidd went up against the dynasty Spurs right? They arent the Bulls but considering Kidd was running the team with Kmart besides him (back when people thought he was good) and not much else making it to the finals just to get crushed was impressive. And now that Kmart doesnt have Kidd what happened? Hes terrible, but got a huge contract because of Kidd. Kidd also helps make terribly streaky players look really good, in fact I think Richard Jefferson could be one of those people. Who did Payton help make better?
...

Wow, Payton going against the team that would've won 8 championships straight (right at the top of the Bulls strength too, the year they won over 70 games) doesn't completely trump Kidd going up against the Spurs for you? Even though Sonics cam ALOT closer to beating the Bulls than the Nets did to beating the Spurs? C'mon now.

I admit that the Manimal was better than K-mart in their respective primes, but trying to argue that the pathetic speciman posing as K-mart indicates that he was never any good without Kidd spoon-feeding him is just whitewashing. Might as well look at the manimal blimp from after Kemp left the Sonics and conclude HE was never any good without Payton either. Kmart certainly has to miss the Kidd passes, but I think its safe to say he misses his knees even more. Lets not forget that he was a number 1 pick, based on his athleticism-- now he would be under CONSIDERATION to use up a team's full MLE. He is not the same player.

After the number-two's you get into the Richard Jefferson vs Detlef territory.... <shrugs>

Personally, I think in their respective primes I'd take Payton (loud mouth and all) over Kidd (wife beating and all), but I can understand why some others would LEAN the other way (like you do toky) but all this "its not even close" baldrdash....? bah.

Tokey41
07-17-2006, 10:26 PM
This is just silly now, GP is "holding on" at his age? Look at him, no one wanted to sign him at his age and skill level when he was a FA because he still for god knows what reason thought he was great. Kidd is old right now in case you havent noticed and he is a nightly threat for a triple double. Not to mention he does what a pure pg should be able to do... pass with excellence and make terrible players into weapons. I see Kidd the better leader, by example not by the mouth.

Its pretty simple for me when I look at the twos careers: GP was NOT the soul reason for the Sonics success but Kidd was for the Nets. Kidd had no talent around him and I dont care how you defend Kmart that guy is useless in my book and the SECOND worst contract in the league next to Jerome James, the reason for that contract is Jason Kidd. I dont know how to give you evidence on that besides his craptacular performance in Denver without his bread and butter PG. Who did Payton help make better? Manimal? Are you kidding? Thats his fault he turned into a whale an no one elses... I mean its not like Payton MADE him keep the weight off, but if he did good for him. He was a good offensive talent but when you look at building a good traditional style team you want a pg who has great playmaking skills and makes his team that much better. Steve Nash could be on the Hawks right now and those guys could be having career years, thats my vision of a dream pg... making people better. (Like Stockton helped Malone)

And based on their career best years Payton was not better at everything, even on defense. And you can say all you want with GP losing to the Bulls the fact is he still failed just like Kidd failed against the Spurs. The whole weak conference thing is a little overstated here, I mean when GP was in his prime you could argue the East was on par with the West if not better. They did have the greatest team in history (im not denying that they were) so they were both in weaker divisions in their primes.

Five-ofan
07-18-2006, 12:22 PM
Are you really arguing that kidd was as good as gp in his prime defensively? If you are that delusional then the argument is done because you just have no clue how good gp was. As for the players around them, manimal was better than kmart but just like manimal without gp was out of shape, kmart without kidd has been hurt. Gp ran a half court offense better than kidd. THat has always been a big knock on kidd, he isnt a good half court pg. He doesnt run an offense particularly well. He runs a break well. As for being the better passer kidd was slightly better but gp was less turnover prone while scoring more and giving out almost as many assists. Is there an argument for kidd being the better pg in their primes? sure. Is it overwhelming? Not by any stretch.

Tokey41
07-18-2006, 04:24 PM
Kmart did have microfracture surgery but good players can come back from it. The ironic thing is that Kidd has come back from this exact surgery and still managed to perform pretty damn well. Why cant Kmart? Because of my reason listed above.

As for the whole defensive thing i'd like to consider rebounds part of that category as well as steals and in their best years Kidd had a little more than GP. I'm not saying he was a better defender overall because I know he wasnt and the stats cant prove that but we both know it anyway. What I am arguing is that I would take Kidd, and i'm sure you would take GP in their prime. I'm also arguing that Kidd was better overall which is where you seem to disagree, and from my argument i've tried to use the stats from their best years to point out that although they are both well rounded Kidd had slightly better stats except with ppg where Payton blew him away. I think since Kidd was so excellent at what he did he didnt have to score to score. I think the obvious comparison is Steve Nash.

I think the fact Kidd has had surgery that has potential to ruin stars careers and survived is inspiring for guys like Amare... and last year? Like I said, even at his age he was still capable of flirting with a triple double and running a team (like VC is really a leader... i'm a TOR follower and I know Vince cant handle that role) and furthermore making it to the playoffs by ending the season on a high note and almost passing Miami for the #2? Thats admirable.

Five-ofan
07-18-2006, 07:28 PM
On the age thing, when gp was 32(the age kidd is now), he averaged 23.1 and 8.1. Yes kidd is old but he is not the same age as gp and gp has aged in dog years since he turned 33. The difference between nash and kidd is that nash can score efficiently but doesnt do it alot. Kidd on the other hand flat out cant score efficiently. As to the rebounds, kidd has always been a better rebounder. To debate that would be foolishness on my part. As i said i can see an argument for kidd. I dont agree with it but i can see one. The problem is when people act like kidd was head and shoulders better. If anyone was head and shoulders better it was gp. He had comparable assist numbers with better ast/to ratios while scoring alot more at a much higher percentage and being a better defender all while being better at running a team in the half court. Kidds argument consists solely of being better on the break and rebounding. As to the knee thing, kidds game was never based on athletecism as all of the other people who have had the surgeries games were. I am impressed that he came back from it but getting hurt and overcoming it isnt more impressive than never getting hurt in gps case.