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vjz
10-23-2006, 12:48 AM
Another one for Nash? (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Ap.HWkPcbPnM_GK7xSoJJAG8vLYF?slug=sk-stevenash100706&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)
By Steve Kerr, Yahoo! Sports

(Slightly old article, but makes for interesting discussion)

Steve Nash's performance in the Phoenix Suns' preseason opener Friday night – a 100-93 victory over the Italian team Lottomatica Roma – was not exactly the stuff that MVPs are made of.

The man who has won the league's top individual award two consecutive years appeared rather mortal playing against a host of obscure Italian guards. Nash's line, in fact, is only worth mentioning because it was so un-Nash-like: five points on five shots, nine assists and six turnovers in 31 minutes of action.

Still, ask any of the Suns' coaches why the team was able to win, despite the jet lag, overall lack of team conditioning this early in the preseason and the unfamiliarity with the opponent, and all would point to Nash. He sets the tone for Phoenix with his constant pushing of the ball, his penetration and his knack for creating easy shots for his teammates. Even on his worst days, Nash still is the motor that keeps the Suns running.

But if you hadn't seen Steve Nash play a basketball game, you might have left the Rome arena Friday night thinking, "Does this guy really have a chance to join Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell and Larry Bird as the only players in NBA history to win three MVPs in a row?" Sometimes it boggles the mind that a player so physically underwhelming – Nash is 6-foot-2, 180 pounds and not particularly explosive – could be one of the top players in a league of thoroughbred athletes who run so fast and jump so high.

But when you watch him closely, you realize just how good he is in so many areas. The ball handling – both dribbling and passing – is amazing. His use of the left hand creates more passing angles than most players have in their sights. His change of pace and deception allows Nash to get past bigger, stronger defenders, and his shooting is exceptional. Last season he became one of the only NBA players in history to shoot better than 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from the three-point line and 90 percent on his free throws.

Perhaps most importantly, Nash seems to know the right play to make on every possession because he constantly is assessing the defense and making the choice whether to shoot or pass. Plus, his understanding of angles and ability to keep shotblockers off guard allows him to do what most small guards can't do: finish at the rim.

But even if you watch Nash and pick up on all of the physical qualities he offers his team, it’s the intangible ones that elevate him a step higher. He takes the blame on turnovers, pointing to his chest and making sure he lets his teammates off the hook even when they’re at fault. He listens to his coaches, encourages his team and plays through mistakes, generating positive energy in the process.

And he always seems to be in the right position defensively, plugging holes in the lane and helping stop penetration. In fact, against Lottomatica on Friday, Nash took a couple of charges and had six steals, many while stepping into passing lanes. And when the game is on the line, and other players are shrinking at the thought of taking the big shot, Nash is the one who steps up for Phoenix and demands the ball.

Is Nash really capable of etching his name next to three NBA immortals by winning the MVP award for a third consecutive season? It will be difficult, but then again, nobody expected him to be in the running the first two times. Nash was able to win the award twice because his stellar play and leadership led Phoenix to a couple of startling seasons.

In 2004-05, Phoenix came out of nowhere and won 62 games with Nash directing a fast-paced, entertaining team. As an encore, Nash led the Suns to 54 wins last season, despite most experts predicting about a .500 mark with the absence of the injured Amare Stoudemire. In other words, the two awards came in large part because of Phoenix exceeding expectations.

This season, with Stoudemire back in the fold, the Suns are one of the favorites to win the NBA title, and exceeding expectations isn't possible. They're supposed to be great, and Nash is one of the main reasons why. He won't sneak up on anyone.

Not that he'd want to. Nash has only one goal remaining in his NBA career, and that's to win a ring. Placing another MVP trophy on his mantle doesn't even enter his mind. Winning a title is what it's about for him, and in order to do so he will need more rest during the regular season. Last season, Nash played in 81 games and averaged a career-high 35.4 minutes a game. That's one reason the Suns signed Marcus Banks to a free-agent contract in the offseason. They would like for Banks to provide Nash with quality backup minutes so that Nash will be better rested and healthier for the playoffs.

For his part, Nash is as healthy as ever. His back, which has caused problems over the years, is fine due to continued work with his physical therapist. Nash spent the summer playing soccer in New York, maintaining his conditioning while refreshing his mind playing his "other" favorite sport. He seems as energized and physically prepared as ever, as does his team. The Suns are getting ready to take a run at a championship, and Nash is at the controls. He couldn't be happier.

Still, even if Phoenix wins its first title in franchise history, it's tough to see the names Chamberlain, Bird, Russell and Nash on a list of all-time greats next to each other. The most unassuming MVP in the history of the NBA couldn't possibly win another one … or could he?

mqywaaah
10-23-2006, 12:50 AM
Could be, but I see this one being handed to the Diggler.

nashtymavsfan13
10-23-2006, 01:14 AM
Nope.

It's going to Bron-Bron or Dirk this year.

dude1394
10-23-2006, 01:35 AM
I think the league will want bron to get it this year. Dirk's year was last year. UNLESS he gets his assists to above 5 or close to that. Then he'll be tough cause he'll have quite a few triples.

AxdemxO
10-23-2006, 01:50 AM
I think since the voting is done before the playoffs that Nash is got a reall good chance, All he has to do is get his team a spot in the top 4 playoff teams and win a close number of games as last season. I would love to see Dirk get it, hate to see LeBron or Wade get it, but it would be interesting to see Nash get it again, then i would root for him to get a 4th one too.

nashtymavsfan13
10-23-2006, 01:59 AM
Honestly, I seriously doubt they'll give it to Nash for the third year in a row. I expect it to go to Lebron or Wade or Kobe, even though Dirk will deserve it (again).

FINtastic
10-23-2006, 02:49 AM
It'll be alot harder for Nash cause the Suns are going to have a hard time overachieving this year. The reason Nash won it both years he won it was because the Suns way a lot more games than most people were predicting (as well as a pretty weak field the first year) and everyone attributed the extra wins to Nash. This year with a team that finally seems to have a healthy arsenal of weapons, I don't think anyone will be a surprised by the number of wins that Phoenix puts up. This will probably take away the biggest crux of the Nash-for-MVP supporters. If Phoenix gets Amare back playing at a high level, and wins about 56 games, are they really playing at their highest level? Since Nash's candidacy isn't based on stats, could you really give it to him again in a scenario like that. Not to mention, LeBron is probably going to put up such ridiculous numbers, it will probably be hard to ignore him.

Which is good, btw, because I would be sick to my stomach if he wins three times in a row.

shaw-xx
10-23-2006, 04:23 AM
Oh no, I hate to see the article again. If the Suns win as many games as last year with Stoudamire who stays healthy, I don't see Nash will win it for the 3rd yr. But if they have a top 2 or 3 record in the L and Nash averages double-double, OK they might give it to him again. OK, Dirk will win the Finals MVP!

BTW, Kerr doesn't need to tell everyone that he loves the Spurs and the Suns for some reason you know every time he predicts something. Thanks to Avery who was his teammate, he began to give the Mavs some credit. :p

Dirkenstien
10-23-2006, 10:52 AM
If the Suns give Nash more rest then they are taking away their main advantage. He'll have a chance at winning the MVP again I'm sure, but I think this year Bron Bron will get it, barring injury ofcourse.

Here's to hoping Dirk takes the cake though.

MavsX
10-23-2006, 11:47 AM
screw that. dude.

u2sarajevo
10-23-2006, 12:24 PM
http://www.hoopnation.de/uploads/stevenashdrunk.jpg

Underdog
10-23-2006, 12:27 PM
There's no way that NASH wins MVP for a third year [Wouldn't that be a record? Wouldn't that make Nash one of the greatest basketball players of ALL TIME???]

I think LeBron, Wade, or Dirk have the best chance at MVP - Nash will win MIP under the new CBA-501 rules... (I'm not sure how the CBA affects MVP/MIP because you jerks banned our resident Xpert!) ;)

mary
10-23-2006, 01:19 PM
My money is on Bron.

Hitman
10-23-2006, 07:48 PM
The Suns would have to win 65+ games this year for Nash to have a shot, IMO.

mqywaaah
10-24-2006, 10:06 AM
My money is on the new ball. And on behalf of MavsX, the donkeys. Yeah I guess the donkeys will get the MVP award this year.

MavsX
10-24-2006, 12:45 PM
i don't really know what that means..but oh well

AxdemxO
10-24-2006, 01:46 PM
If the Suns do well, lets say 60 games. Nash should win it again. Some say that they wont be seen as overachieevrs, which is tru. But its still proof of how important he is to that team, especially if he misses some games and they lose most of the games he missed. The only way he doesnt get it is if the NBA is afraid that people are gonna start saying that he is gettin it cuz he is white, which is BS.

Dtownsfinest
10-24-2006, 02:16 PM
Its Lebron's to lose.

fluid.forty.one
10-24-2006, 02:41 PM
You could argue that nash didn't deserve one
Most agree that nash didn't deserve two
No way in hell that nash deserves three

AxdemxO
10-24-2006, 04:30 PM
Nash deserved both based on the regular season. It would be diff if it was voted after the playoffs, but for a regular season he def. deserevd both.

LeBron was up there,Shaq shouldnt have even been there, and Kobe should never win one if he plays so selfishly

Thespiralgoeson
10-24-2006, 05:01 PM
Nash deserved both based on the regular season. It would be diff if it was voted after the playoffs, but for a regular season he def. deserevd both.


Horseshit. I personally didn't think he deserved one, let alone two.

AxdemxO
10-24-2006, 08:35 PM
Horseshit. I personally didn't think he deserved one, let alone two.

Well ths u personally, and i personally think he did....sooo there yuo go.

There nothing to point out that would say he didnt deserve it, unless ur on a hater squad tht doesnt like him any more cuz hes not a Mav

mqywaaah
10-25-2006, 12:12 AM
I think he deserves the first two, but a third would just be plain bollocks!

FINtastic
10-25-2006, 03:09 AM
Well ths u personally, and i personally think he did....sooo there yuo go.

There nothing to point out that would say he didnt deserve it, unless ur on a hater squad tht doesnt like him any more cuz hes not a Mav

Oh there is plenty to point out to say that he didn't deserve it. I've done it time and time again. Not sure if I really feel like rehashing an old argument at 3 am though. Let's just say that it's not like those guys on the Suns are bad players. Amare Stoudemire (when he was healthy), Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, and Boris Diaw...those dudes can play. Nash is a product of the system as much as the system is a product of Nash. People say Diaw sucked in Atlanta and suddenly became better because he played with Nash. No, Diaw could always play, he was just misutilized in Atlanta. Need proof? In the last two games that Nash sat out last season, Diaw had triple doubles in each of them. Diaw didn't need Nash, he needed that system and a coach who was willing to use him properly. Joe Johnson didn't need Nash last year to post career highs. Nash may have deserved the MVP in 2004-05 (although that's still debateable), but only because the field was weak. I certainly don't think he deserved it last year when there were a slew of good candidates, mainly our very own Dirk Nowitzki.

AxdemxO
10-25-2006, 03:42 AM
Oh there is plenty to point out to say that he didn't deserve it. I've done it time and time again. Not sure if I really feel like rehashing an old argument at 3 am though. Let's just say that it's not like those guys on the Suns are bad players. Amare Stoudemire (when he was healthy), Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, and Boris Diaw...those dudes can play. Nash is a product of the system as much as the system is a product of Nash. People say Diaw sucked in Atlanta and suddenly became better because he played with Nash. No, Diaw could always play, he was just misutilized in Atlanta. Need proof? In the last two games that Nash sat out last season, Diaw had triple doubles in each of them. Diaw didn't need Nash, he needed that system and a coach who was willing to use him properly. Joe Johnson didn't need Nash last year to post career highs. Nash may have deserved the MVP in 2004-05 (although that's still debateable), but only because the field was weak. I certainly don't think he deserved it last year when there were a slew of good candidates, mainly our very own Dirk Nowitzki.
I agree with a lot of what you say, BUT do you think that if any other pg was running that system the Suns would be as good as they are. Personally i dont, maybe Kidd. But also if thats the arguement you use than you could go ahead and ask why LeBron deserved it too. Hughes is not a bad plaey, Illguaskas(spellin), Gooden, and many other good role players.

AxdemxO
10-25-2006, 03:44 AM
And also i keep saying that the voting is done only based on regular season..soo that mite be a problem and why Nash won last eyar and not Dirk, but you cant blame Nash for that. And besides Dirk who other would you rather have win it than Nash. (not Kobe, Shaq, Wade, or Lebron)

Five-ofan
10-25-2006, 06:22 AM
I have refrained from this thread for two reasons. One, Ive made almost every argument Im about to make before. 2, I really do love Steve Nash. Loved him when he was a mav, dont blame him for taking the extra 20 mil or so. I would have done the same thing so still love him. I think he is one of the most entertaining players in the nba. Just remember I said all of this because everything I say from here on out is gonna sound like Im trashing him, much like whenever anyone says with all due respect, they arent about to say something with all due respect. I dont mean these to imply that Nash isnt a good or maybe even great player BUT I do mean them to show that he had no business whatsoever winning the MVP either year but good lord did he have no business winning it last year.

The last MVP award he won. The arguments for Nash, 1. His team was still Elite and won their division without Amare(and JJ and Qrich). 2. If he won it last year and he has better numbers, how do you not give it to him? 3. He makes his teammates better.

Number 1 is possibly the stupidest argument Ive ever heard. You know who else didnt have Amare? EVERY other player in the nba. Yes I realize that not every team started out with him but the fact that he went from THE most talented roster in the nba to top 3 or 4 isnt enough to justify granting him the mvp. As for JJ, you wont find many bigger fans of JJ than me. That said, he left as a FA and was replaced with an extremely talented player. If we were gonna use this criteria where is Dirks Mvp for the year before when his team won 58 "without Steve Nash?"

Second part of number 1, The Suns werent really Elite last year record wise. Most people that didnt want to give the award to Lebron did so because of his record because he is WITHOUT QUESTION better than Nash. Heres an interesting point though, the Cavs were closer to the Suns record than the Suns were to the Mavs, not to mention the Spurs and Pistons. Yes there is a SOS factor that needs to be added but thats just something that neeeds to be taken into consideration. So the Suns extra 4 wins elevate Nash over lebron but the Mavs 6 extra dont do anything for Dirk? BS.

Number 2, his "MVPness" was never based on the numbers so him having better numbers doesnt justify giving it to him at all.
3. Ah here we have the Nash apologist biggest argument. This is actually fairly valid. However, last time I checked, the goal of an NBA player isnt to get his teammates good stats/make them better. It is to win games/make his TEAM better. Nash most certainly does not make his team better than Dirk or Lebron does. The problem with the he makes his teammates better argument is that it is so vague. This makes it difficult to refute. I do think he helps set his teammates up and he runs an offense well. This is his primary contribution to making his team better. Saying that a guy like Dirk or Kobe doesnt make his teammates better ignores a blatantly simple fact, there teammates dont have to be as good as Nashs because those players are so much better than Nash individually. Dirk(and/or Kobe/Lebron) actually do make their teammates better as ANY huge offensive threat will but Im just ignoring that for now.

The arguments I hear against Dirk seriously border on making me think that the people who make them are either A) retarded or B) dont watch the mavs. I have heard everything from Josh Howard is the real Mvp of the mavs to Dirk doesnt Make teammates better.

The first is just moronic. If you want to use the argument of someone not being the mvp of their own team that should be used against Nash. Everyone thinks Marion is a product of Nash but he was a 19-10 guy before he ever played a game with Nash. He is on a completely different level than Josh howard. Next Boris Diaw is better than Josh too. Especially by the "he makes his teammates better" standard. Josh is a better shooter and a rebounder. Boris is better at EVERYTHING else. So what your telling me is that Steve Nash has 2 other players better than anyone on the mavs besides Dirk but the hes not the MVP of his own team argument is used against Dirk and not Nash? Hrmmmmmm....

Next, everyone acts like the mavs are flat out loaded outside of Dirk. Im sad to say but this wasnt really the truth(though we have improved in the offseason and are getting closer). Lets really take a look at the Mavs outside of Dirk. Jason terry- Great attitude, GREAT shooter....Not alot else there. Hes a pg who cant pass or defend. Josh Howard-becomeing a very good scorer, Great rebounder for his position, slightly above average defender at best, vastly overrated by mavs fans on that end. Gifted enough physically that he should be better but horrible bball iq especially defensively. Damp-think he helps alot more than people think. Why im including him individually and not including him as a Spare part. The rest is a bunch of spare parts. They are good spare parts mind you but at this point, none of them is special(You have no clue how much it pains me to say that about Devin Harris)

The biggest rub I have is that with ANY other team that wins, all the credit goes to the star. Dirk somehow has different criteria than everyone else though. Hes the only star I can remember whom gets less credit for his team winning than the role players do. That just strikes me as odd. Ill go back in time to the player he is most often compared to. Bird had Mchale, Parrish, DJ, and Bill Walton. Yet Bird is always credited for those teams winning. Im not saying no one else gets credit but the lions share goes to Bird. Its the same with every other star in the nba but dirk. I dont understand this.

I realize that Im just rambling now, I apoligize for that. I got 2 hours of sleep(had to do a project and I dont have time to go back to sleep right now but I needed to kill some time so I figured I would chime in here.)

FINtastic
10-25-2006, 08:31 AM
I agree with a lot of what you say, BUT do you think that if any other pg was running that system the Suns would be as good as they are. Personally i dont, maybe Kidd. But also if thats the arguement you use than you could go ahead and ask why LeBron deserved it too. Hughes is not a bad plaey, Illguaskas(spellin), Gooden, and many other good role players.

I would take (a healthy) Amare, Marion, and Joe Johnson over any of those three Cavalier players that you listed. I probably would take Diaw over them as well (although as I stated on another thread, I'm wondering if he might have a bit of a letdown year). If we are going to use the he makes the team better argument with Nash, we can apply it to LeBron as well. Seriously, without LeBron this year, the Cavs are in the Greg Oden sweepstakes.

I think 5-0 is making a lot of the same points I am too so you might want to look at some of the stuff he is saying for my argument.

Five-ofan
10-25-2006, 09:19 AM
BTW on the makes his teammates better argument, why does everyone just act like dirk doesnt do it at all? Personally I see no real difference in Nash making a great pass to an open teammate or running a pick and pop for an open jumper than Dirk setting a Screen which gets Jason Terry WIDE open because no one would ever dream of leaving dirk. Same result, an open jumper for a teammate that generally gets knocked down. Yet Nash gets an assist and because of this people say he makes his teammates better. Not to mention the way Dirk distorts a defense by being probably the best combination of on and off the ball scoring in the nba.

Personally I would have voted for Dirk last year because I think he deserved the one the year before 2 and he had the best combo of individual and team greatness but the MVP race last year should have been a two man race. Dirk or Lebron either one would have been a great choice anyone else was a HORRIBLE pick. Yes that includes the man who won it.

Flacolaco
10-26-2006, 03:41 PM
http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/1018/nba_g_nash_268x463.jpg

man he sure has a knack for looking very gay in pictures....

vjz
10-26-2006, 03:52 PM
...
Personally I see no real difference in Nash making a great pass to an open teammate or running a pick and pop for an open jumper than Dirk setting a Screen ...

You're kidding right? No way setting a screen is equivalent to an assist.

nashtymavsfan13
10-26-2006, 04:43 PM
You're kidding right? No way setting a screen is equivalent to an assist.

A good screen gets the job done just as well as a good pass.

Another point, Dirk also draw a double team which opens up teammates and makes them better as well.

vjz
10-26-2006, 04:57 PM
A good screen gets the job done just as well as a good pass.

Another point, Dirk also draw a double team which opens up teammates and makes them better as well.

Sorry, but an assist means the team got points on the board. Even a good screen means the player still has to make the shot!

It is arguable that Dirk makes others better as much as Nash does; but screening is a bad example.

By drawing double teams, yes.

nashtymavsfan13
10-26-2006, 04:59 PM
Sorry, but an assist means the team got points on the board. Even a good screen means the player still has to make the shot!

It is arguable that Dirk makes others better as much as Nash does; but screening is a bad example.

By drawing double teams, yes.

A player still has to make the shot after a good pass as well, and a good screen leads to points as often as an assist imo because good screens happen more often because of the fact that it doesn't count as an assist unless they make the shot.

Underdog
10-26-2006, 05:12 PM
You're kidding right? No way setting a screen is equivalent to an assist.


It is if the shooter scores! ;)

Five-ofan
10-26-2006, 05:21 PM
You're kidding right? No way setting a screen is equivalent to an assist.
How is a screen ANY different results wise than a pass out to an open shooter? They both result in an open shooter. Im talking about a screen that results in a made jumper vs a pass that results in a made jumper, there is no real difference. The funny thing about this is dirk actually sets crappy screens. They are majorly effective though because of who he is.

dirno2000
10-26-2006, 05:33 PM
I don't even care anymore. The media cheapened the award when they gave it to Nash for the 2nd time...and John Stockton turned over in his grave.

Five-ofan
10-26-2006, 05:39 PM
I don't even care anymore. The media cheapened the award when they gave it to Nash for the 2nd time...and John Stockton turned over in his grave.
Not to Mention KJ...Or Isiah

jayC
10-27-2006, 09:18 PM
Who cares about the MVP? The only thing that matters is the world title.

chumdawg
10-27-2006, 11:57 PM
I don't even care anymore. The media cheapened the award when they gave it to Nash for the 2nd time...and John Stockton turned over in his grave.Bitter.

Tokey41
10-28-2006, 01:20 AM
What kind of moron would predict Nash winning a third MVP? There is no way in hell the Suns exceed expectations this year because they are getting so much media love anything short of the title and a one or two seed would be a letdown. Neither will happen.

Stranger
10-28-2006, 10:47 AM
Didn't the NBA declare that Nash would be awarded every MVP until he retired?

dude1394
10-28-2006, 11:04 AM
What kind of moron would predict Nash winning a third MVP? There is no way in hell the Suns exceed expectations this year because they are getting so much media love anything short of the title and a one or two seed would be a letdown. Neither will happen.


Same morons that voted him two in a row.

mary
10-28-2006, 12:41 PM
In order for Nash to reach Stockton's career assist total of 15,806, he'll have to play for the next nine years, in all 82 games, and average just over 14.6 apg.

I think he can do it. After all, he is a nice guy..and that he thing he does with licking his hands...so cool...

dirno2000
10-28-2006, 01:28 PM
Bitter.

I am bitter but not for the reason you're implying. As a life lone NBA fan, last years vote was a travishamockery.

And it's not like Mavs fans are the only ones that recognize it. The two national voices that I respect the most (Hollinger and Simmons) feel the same way.