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View Full Version : Cheap shot bowen finally acknowleged by the league.


dude1394
11-12-2006, 12:59 AM
When the league actually admits it, it's pretty sure it's true. Shouldn't be allowed to skate at all but the NBA is pretty weird.

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/43198/20061111/league_probing_francis_injury/
League Probing Francis' Injury
11th November, 2006 - 4:11 am
Newark Star-Ledger -
Stu Jackson said he was investigating Bruce Bowen's foot maneuver that led to Steve Francis' injury Monday. He also said there would not be a suspension, meaning Bowen will be available to play against the Knicks tonight in San Antonio.

"In the past he hasn't allowed the shooter to come down," Jackson said. "I'll look at the video evidence and see if it's the technique that he's using so that he can avoid in the future."

Francis' availability is a "game-time" decision, according to Knicks coach Isiah Thomas. [READ]

rakesh.s
11-12-2006, 02:27 AM
He tried it again tonight...this time on Crawford. Crawford wasn't hurt, but it led to a heated exchange between Isiah, Bowen and Poppabitch. After the game, timmy came out and said Bowen isn't dirty and guys just get frustrated by Bowen's defense.

Give me a friggin' break. They may have to put in a rule to prevent this crap just like the NFL did with the horsecollar tackling. 10 game suspension minimum would be fine by me.

Mavdog
11-12-2006, 08:44 AM
Thomas threatens Bowen during Spurs' win

Web Posted: 11/11/2006 10:45 PM CST

Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

Bruce Bowen stood in the hallway of Madison Square Garden late Monday, waiting for the rest of his teammates to finish showering and dressing after the Spurs' victory over New York. Knicks coach Isiah Thomas, having just left his own team's locker room, walked over to talk.
Thomas told Bowen how much he admired him. He liked his tenacity and appreciated how hard he had worked to become one of the NBA's best defenders. He thanked him for his charitable endeavors.

With the Knicks visiting the AT&T Center on Saturday night for the teams' rematch, Thomas again chatted up Bowen. This time he didn't wait until after the game. Nor was he quite as complimentary.

Thomas, in fact, had a very succinct message for how he wanted the Knicks to treat Bowen: "Break his (expletive) foot!"

Thomas would have been smarter to have his players cripple Tony Parker. Parker scored a season-high 33 points in the Spurs' 100-92 victory.

The game, however, was overshadowed by Thomas' first-quarter altercation with Bowen, which also led to a sideline confrontation between the Knicks coach and Spurs coach Gregg Popovich.

Aware that New York guard Steve Francis sprained his left ankle after landing on Bowen's foot in the team's first meeting, Thomas became incensed when he thought Bowen stepped under Jamal Crawford while contesting a shot early in Saturday's game.

"Next time he does that," Thomas shouted to his players, "break his (expletive) foot!"

Thomas started jawing at Bowen, who said he also heard the Knicks coach threaten to "break his neck." The referees gave them each a technical.

That brought Popovich off the bench. He shouted at the officials to tell Thomas to "stop talking to my players!" Popovich then told Thomas himself, yelling at him after marching to midcourt.

Thomas initially waved off Popovich before shouting back. Both coaches were restrained by their assistants as the officials tried to calm them.

"I think Pop was just defending his player," Bowen said, "because Pop doesn't talk to players."

Bowen and Thomas glared at each other briefly in the second quarter, and when Bowen walked off the court during the ensuing timeout, Popovich told him, "Don't say a word to (Thomas). Not a word."

After the game, Popovich and Thomas shook hands, smiled and chatted briefly. Each tried to diffuse the situation.

"You know, games are emotional," Popovich said. "We all do things at times because our emotions are high or we're angry about something or we're frustrated. So it's no big deal."

Thomas said he shouted at Bowen, in part, to "stoke a little fire" in his team, which had been trailing by 13 only eight minutes into the game.

"I think Pop and I both understand and respect competition," Thomas said. "He was doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing for his players, and I was doing exactly what I was supposed to be doing for my players.

"I do believe there's still a healthy respect. As you saw, we shook hands and kind of understood what the gamesmanship was all about."

Bowen called the incident "unfortunate," adding, "this is a game that we as professionals are blessed to play," he said. "We enjoy the game and that's what it should be about."

Tim Duncan, who was on the floor when the incident happened, wasn't as conciliatory.

"It's just a bad situation when a coach puts himself in that situation and goes after a player," said Duncan, who had 24 points and 16 rebounds. "It's uncalled for. I don't know what his intentions were with that. We've got bigger plans than to go out and try to hurt somebody.

"I would hope that people would understand and respect that. Obviously, they don't."

Even though Crawford didn't land on Bowen, Thomas said he didn't want to risk losing another player five days after Francis was injured. Francis hasn't played since he came down on Bowen's foot after attempting a shot.

"Contesting, for me, is jumping at the shot," Bowen said. "If I jumped at the shot and somebody else jumped and I'm trying to defend him, block the shot, get as close to him as possible ... how far away do you end up from a player when you contest it?"

Neither Thomas nor Crawford would call Bowen dirty. But Thomas explained to reporters in Houston on Saturday how he would have reacted if someone had stepped under him.

"I'd beat the (expletive) out of somebody," Thomas said. "Really, I would (expletive) murder them ... There's certain things you don't do."

Told before the game what Thomas had said, Popovich replied: "That's kind of a Mike Tyson comment, a little bit over the edge possibly. I'm sure he's just frustrated."

An NBA spokesman said Tuesday Bowen wouldn't be penalized for the Monday incident, in part, because he had his back turned when Francis landed on him. On Saturday, however, a league official said Stu Jackson, the NBA's vice president of basketball operations, was still reviewing the play.

Bowen has been accused by other players, most notably Vince Carter, of stepping under them when they shoot. The Spurs forward and Popovich both said they hadn't heard from the league. But NBA officials figure to take a close look at everyone's role in Saturday's incident.

Bowen has grown accustomed to finding himself in the middle of controversy.

"But isn't it a little early in the season," he said, "to already be talking about this?"

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 08:57 AM
I'd want to see Thomas suspended for conduct unbecoming league personnel, but it's worse punishment for him to have to coach that team.

dude1394
11-12-2006, 10:22 AM
He tried it again tonight...this time on Crawford. Crawford wasn't hurt, but it led to a heated exchange between Isiah, Bowen and Poppabitch. After the game, timmy came out and said Bowen isn't dirty and guys just get frustrated by Bowen's defense.

Give me a friggin' break. They may have to put in a rule to prevent this crap just like the NFL did with the horsecollar tackling. 10 game suspension minimum would be fine by me.

We've lost josh for the exact same thing. The player moving under him on a jump shot.

MavsFanatik33
11-12-2006, 11:37 AM
I hate Bowen, I wish someone woud break his foot...that would teach him

purplefrog
11-12-2006, 01:27 PM
I am glad to see Stu Jackson is looking at more film and not just this one incident with Francis. But if there is a pattern of behavior here then a little slap on the wrist and encouragement "to do better" seems pretty much against the more typical tone the NBA front office has taken against the players this season. Bowen should get a warning and if it continues then there should be some action taken against him. Has it even dawned on Jackson that part of Bowen's mystique is that the opposition becomes tentative for reasons just like this? While I think Bowen is a great defensive player, if this really does happen more often than is typical then HE has got to make some adjustments.

birdsanctuary
11-12-2006, 07:06 PM
Now I finally am beginning to respect Isiah...

Does anyone have video footage?

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 07:11 PM
Now I finally am beginning to respect Isiah...

Does anyone have video footage?
Then you're an idiot.

Thomas admitted that he doesn't think Bowen is a dirty player, that he didn't really think Bowen was trying to hurt Crawford, and that he was just trying to fire up his team by pretending to pick a fight.

Thomas is nothing but a punk, who's been barking in the media for weeks about how tough he is, about how many fights he had growing up, and how he hoped to imprint some of his "image" onto the Nix.

Problem is that NBA arenas aren't exactly ghetto conditions and stupid personnel moves like Eddy Curry can collect paychecks year after year without having to fight for survival.

No reason to believe a word Zeke says at this point, or from here on out.

As for Bowen, the Mavericks could use at least 3 players just like him.

Dirkenstien
11-12-2006, 07:21 PM
Bowen is dirty. He chooses the right person and the right time to use his "foot defense". Only when the game is close enough and/or if the shooter is a high profile player will he do it. Naturally, he expects to get away with it because he targets stars who won't retaliate because their team relies on them too much. When he jumps to contest a shot he will bring his feet together in-air to make it appear as though it is a normal defensive attempt, however, at about the top of his jump he will then begin to spread his legs back out, only now he moves his lead foot (whichever hand is up that foot will follow) under the opponent's ankle while his head is turned towards the shot (following the ball). This all to make it appear natural, but infact it is dirty and he should be suspended.

I dream of the day he is stupid enough to try something like that on Shaq or Ben Wallace.

birdsanctuary
11-12-2006, 07:22 PM
Watch the footage for yourself. I think the guy's a cheater, he lacks superstar talent and he's made up for it with dirty plays...

Players like Bowen should be banned from the league. And you'll see the Bruce Bowen "foot defense" rule soon. The NBA cannot allow scrubs like Bowen taking out the cash cow players of the league. If this were LeBron or Wade, instead of Francis and Crawford, the rule would already be implemented.
VIDEO: BOWEN "FOOT DEFENSE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drPQkEsM8uM)
VIDEO: "VINSANE FOOT DEFENSE" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI5pE2-bXkE)

and for anyone who still thinks the foot move is unintentional, I provide case #3, watch shot #2, & 5.
Video: BOWEN KILLER (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvh9kEwekY8) (Mavs fans will only be able to tolerate 45 seconds of this crap, but you'll see Bowen slide the foot under the Bowen Killer multiple times.)

Video: Expert Stupidity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTCZZRyqJBQ)

dude1394
11-12-2006, 07:25 PM
No wonder thomas went nuts, that's almost a carbon copy of the way he crippled francis.

dude1394
11-12-2006, 08:07 PM
Here's another one. Cheap-shot artist. Next time he comes close to sticking his foot under someone he should be suspended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTCZZRyqJBQ

AxdemxO
11-12-2006, 08:16 PM
And dont you hate tht ugly smirk that Bowen has on his face after tht..ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...just hate the guy

Drbio
11-12-2006, 08:41 PM
Bowen is an effin' retard.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 08:44 PM
So let's see...

On the one hand, you've got Bruce Bowen...2-time NBA Champion, 6-time all NBA Defensive Team member (3 first-team, 3 second-team), 2-time runner up for NBA Defensive Player of the year playing pretty much better-than-textbook defense.

On the other hand, you have a lineup of whiny, prima dona jump-shooters with reputations as gutless quitters and heartless losers, who among them have ZERO NBA championships.

Those videos do NOTHING to support any contention that Bowen is a dirty player when he crowds the shooter like that, least of all the ones where Kobe torched him. With the exception of the Kobe clips (from Kobejerk.com) looks like gritty, get-in-their head defense. I'll take that every time. Not his finest moment kicking Ray Allen in the back, but there were extenuating circumstances there, and that's not the kind of play at issue where he crowds a jumpshooter.

I don't like that Bowen has historically had the ability to get in Mavs' players heads--didn't like to see Josh lose his composure like that the other night. But most of the best teams have always had at least one of those kinds of tough-minded, hard-nosed, gritty players--the kind that other players hated to play against, the kind whose own teammates hated to play against--Paul Silas, Maurice Lucas, Kurt Rambis, A.C Greene, Mahorn (okay, dirty), Rodman (okay, dirty), Oakley. Guarantee you that Thomas would sign Bowen in a heartbeat if Bowen were available (and if Zeke hadn't blown all his cap room already).

Bottom line: The championship teams more often than not have 'em. The runners-up more often than not don't.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 08:46 PM
Would be interesting to get Dirk's take on Bowen as a defender.

dude1394
11-12-2006, 08:48 PM
Mavkiki..I know you hate zeke...but it's not just a bunch of knicks that have called out bowen...it's many,many players.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 08:54 PM
Mavkiki..I know you hate zeke...but it's not just a bunch of knicks that have called out bowen...it's many,many players.
Right. Allen, Carter, Finley, and Zeke on behalf of Francis and Crawford.

I believe the phrase was "...prima dona jump-shooters with reputations as gutless quitters and heartless losers, who among them have ZERO NBA championships."

With the exception of Finley, who I don't think was gutless, heartless or a quitter, I'll stand by that assessment.

Honestly, it sounds like blind resentment of the Spurs' success that keeps people from appreciating what Bowen does. Jump-shooters hate to be crowded, hate to be defended, and hate contact. Bowen crowds them, defends them, and irritates them with contact. It's an art, and Bowen's a Picasso.

No way he should be suspended for anything he's done with Crawford or Francis, and in fact if anything comes of it, people should be seriously disturbed that Thomas and the NYKs can get the ear of Stern and Stooge when no one else has been able to over the years.

In fact, I've heard speculation that Zeke may face league action for threatening to have his players break Bowen's foot, or for personally threatening to break Bowen's neck. Doubt anything will come of that either, but as for this NYKs flare-up with Bowen, this is all Zeke's theater.

EricaLubarsky
11-12-2006, 09:15 PM
Kobe Bryant, Dirk Nowitzki, Ray Allen, Michael Finley, Josh Howard, Stevie Francis (and not just as a knick), Jerry Stackhouse, AK47, Jamal Crawford, Peja Stojakovic, Richard Jefferson, Wally szxzxxerbiak and Jason Kidd have all complained about the "defense" of Bowen (I musta missed a few?). Some of them are jumpshooting primadonnas but i have a hard time believing a team worth of allstars all have some little whiney chip on their shoulder.'

As for Isiah, the dude truly is a primadonna that is trying to throw up a smoke screen because he's totally incompetent, but it may be like T-Mac's little cry for attention when he called the Finals rigged-- they may have their own issues, but DAMNIT they are right.

Dirkadirkastan
11-12-2006, 09:24 PM
So let's see...

On the one hand, you've got Bruce Bowen...2-time NBA Champion, 6-time all NBA Defensive Team member (3 first-team, 3 second-team), 2-time runner up for NBA Defensive Player of the year playing pretty much better-than-textbook defense.

On the other hand, you have a lineup of whiny, prima dona jump-shooters with reputations as gutless quitters and heartless losers, who among them have ZERO NBA championships.

Those videos do NOTHING to support any contention that Bowen is a dirty player...

I agree, calls should be made on reputation alone, and not what actually happens on the court. Who cares if Bowen sticks his foot out for no other apparent reason, or if Wade elbows Dirk in the chest with 26 seconds left in Game 6 of the NBA Finals. Everyone needs to shut up and give these players the respect they deserve.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 09:27 PM
Kobe Bryant, Dirk Nowitzki, Ray Allen, Michael Finley, Josh Howard, Stevie Francis (and not just as a knick), Jerry Stackhouse, AK47, Jamal Crawford, Peja Stojakovic, Richard Jefferson, Wally szxzxxerbiak and Jason Kidd have all complained about the "defense" of Bowen (I musta missed a few?). Some of them are jumpshooting primadonnas but i have a hard time believing a team worth of allstars all have some little whiney chip on their shoulder.'

I wouldn't ask for links except for Dirk--just out of curiosity. As for the rest of those, I'd wager the majority of complaints came after losses.

Oh, and....Kobe? One of the straight-up dirtiest players in the league. Great talent, but total cheap shotter (and also probably a rapist).

FWIW, he's also a 3-time NBA Champion, the only one of those mentioned to have more rings than Bowen (or any for that matter). Do the math.

mqywaaah
11-12-2006, 09:30 PM
Bowen is an effin' retard.

Retarded players for a retarded Team.

Dirkenstien
11-12-2006, 10:17 PM
As for the rest of those, I'd wager the majority of complaints came after losses.

Under what other occasion would you expect a player to talk about an opposing team's player? Players are generally focused on the season at hand and not some annoyance from one particular team.... so it is very rare to hear of players complaining about another player's STYLE of play unless ofcourse it is after a loss and your pissed off about some cheap shots.

Furthermore, let's take your argument at face value and say it was just sour grapes after a loss to the Spurs. Then why not complain about Duncan's defense and say he is dirty? Duncan is a great defender and I am sure he is responsible for frustrating many more opponent's than Bruce freekin Bowen; so frankly, I fail to see where you're going with that.

You can try to ignore Bowen's dirty tactics all you want, but it is as plain as day that his "foot work" is intentional. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and smells like a duck, then it's a duck. Now, I have nothing wrong with pesky defenders who crowd their opponent and get in their head, but when it comes to knowingly and intentionally trying to disrupt an opponent's game by means of threatening SERIOUS injury, then that is where I draw the line.

To do anything otherwise would be completely unethical and a disgrace to this beautiful game.

*edit spelling

purplefrog
11-12-2006, 10:46 PM
If there is a pattern (and it seems like there is), then the NBA has to step in and reprimand Bowen. Call it good tight defense, dirty play, whatever ... the fact is that if opposing players are frequently rolling an ankle when he defends then there is a problem that needs to be fixed. Stu Jackson can try "helping" him adjust his play, if that doesn't work then the refs should start calling a flagrant foul when it happens, if that doesn't stop it then they should suspend him for a game, etc.

rakesh.s
11-12-2006, 11:04 PM
Right. Allen, Carter, Finley, and Zeke on behalf of Francis and Crawford.

I believe the phrase was "...prima dona jump-shooters with reputations as gutless quitters and heartless losers, who among them have ZERO NBA championships."

With the exception of Finley, who I don't think was gutless, heartless or a quitter, I'll stand by that assessment.

Honestly, it sounds like blind resentment of the Spurs' success that keeps people from appreciating what Bowen does. Jump-shooters hate to be crowded, hate to be defended, and hate contact. Bowen crowds them, defends them, and irritates them with contact. It's an art, and Bowen's a Picasso.

No way he should be suspended for anything he's done with Crawford or Francis, and in fact if anything comes of it, people should be seriously disturbed that Thomas and the NYKs can get the ear of Stern and Stooge when no one else has been able to over the years.

In fact, I've heard speculation that Zeke may face league action for threatening to have his players break Bowen's foot, or for personally threatening to break Bowen's neck. Doubt anything will come of that either, but as for this NYKs flare-up with Bowen, this is all Zeke's theater.

Chauncey Billips had the same thing happen to him in one of the nba finals games...Bowen stuck his foot underneath him and then later went over and acted like it was an accident.

by the way, chauncey IS a champion.

Ray Allen is a quitter? Did your drug dealer get fresh stock? Get that crap out of here. You might want to take it to the realgm spurs board..you might find one or two people that agree with you.

FINtastic
11-12-2006, 11:10 PM
How do the videos not show a cheap shot by Bowen? There's no way your foot naturally ends up that far in front if you are just straight up contesting a shot by jumping as high as you can. As a person who has suffered several ankle injuries playing basketball, I hate seeing a person go specifically for the ankles like that. That's pretty worthless.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 11:12 PM
Chauncey Billips had the same thing happen to him in one of the nba finals games...Bowen stuck his foot underneath him and then later went over and acted like it was an accident.

by the way, chauncey IS a champion.

Ray Allen is a quitter? Did your drug dealer get fresh stock? Get that crap out of here. You might want to take it to the realgm spurs board..you might find one or two people that agree with you.

Chauncey then is the exception. However, he later DID lose to Bowen's Spurs.

Yeah, Ray Allen is a loser, a quitter...take your pick....beautiful stroke, but he hasn't been close to winning shi*t, and isn't likely to anytime soon.

I rarely write anything for the sake of being agreed with. And you're about 7, 249 posts short of being able to send me anywhere, but who's counting.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 11:13 PM
How do the videos not show a cheap shot by Bowen? There's no way your foot naturally ends up that far in front if you are just straight up contesting a shot by jumping as high as you can. As a person who has suffered several ankle injuries playing basketball, I hate seeing a person go specifically for the ankles like that. That's pretty worthless.

Then you'd have hated playing against me, because that's exactly what I'd have done.

FINtastic
11-12-2006, 11:13 PM
Yeah and about the dirty defense is necessary to be a great defender argument, I don't really hear too many complaints about Ben Wallace's defense. There may be a few complaints that I haven't heard, but it's nowhere near the extraordinary list of enemies that Bowen has built up.

FINtastic
11-12-2006, 11:15 PM
Then you'd have hated playing against me, because that's exactly what I'd have done.

Then that is pretty darn sorry of you.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 11:22 PM
Yeah and about the dirty defense is necessary to be a great defender argument, I don't really hear too many complaints about Ben Wallace's defense. There may be a few complaints that I haven't heard, but it's nowhere near the extraordinary list of enemies that Bowen has built up.

Wallace is a beast--one of the toughest, most physical players in the league today. In case you've forgotten, it was an exchange between Wallace and Artest that started the brawl at the Palace. My vDollars would've been on Wallace.

Wallace has gotten less lip service in this regard than defenders like Mutombo (elbows), Rodman (head butts) and Artest (forearms/clothes lines...and yeah, Artest is just plain dirty), but ...the better defenders almost without exception annoy the hell out of the offensive players that they take out of their game. Close parallel to Bowen in terms of lesser skill-level combined with tenaciousness would be Michael Cooper. Cooper was about 180 lbs, but routinely took on bigger players and took them out of their game with physical, annoying, intimidating play. And he wouldn't back down either. Like Bowen, he worked to make himself something of a threat as a 3-point shooter, but wouldn't have come close to the natural ability of most of his teammates. Interesting to note that he was a Riley find; wasn't Bowen as well?

One exception to the great defender/ "dirty" defender rule---Bobby Jones of the Sixers. But he was the exception.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 11:23 PM
Then that is pretty darn sorry of you.

I'd have beaten you too.

FINtastic
11-12-2006, 11:25 PM
Yes, and if I had taken out a gun and shot you 10 times, I would have beat you too. But it wouldn't be a very moral or satisfying win.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 11:26 PM
Yes, and if I had taken out a gun and shot you 10 times, I would have beat you too. But it wouldn't be a very moral or satisfying win.

I'd have shot you first too.

rakesh.s
11-12-2006, 11:27 PM
Chauncey then is the exception. However, he later DID lose to Bowen's Spurs.

Yeah, Ray Allen is a loser, a quitter...take your pick....beautiful stroke, but he hasn't been close to winning shi*t, and isn't likely to anytime soon.

I rarely write anything for the sake of being agreed with. And you're about 7, 249 posts short of being able to send me anywhere, but who's counting.

oh brother..get the post counts involved. So you sit behind a computer and waste your life away -- big effin deal.

You'd be hard pressed to find five sane nba fans that would agree with your assessment of bowen.

FINtastic
11-12-2006, 11:28 PM
Wallace is a beast--one of the toughest, most physical players in the league today. In case you've forgotten, it was an exchange between Wallace and Artest that started the brawl at the Palace. My vDollars would've been on Wallace.

Wallace has gotten less lip service in this regard than defenders like Mutombo (elbows), Rodman (head butts) and Artest (forearms/clothes lines...and yeah, Artest is just plain dirty), but ...the better defenders almost without exception annoy the hell out of the offensive players that they take out of their game. Close parallel to Bowen in terms of lesser skill-level combined with tenaciousness would be Michael Cooper. Cooper was about 180 lbs, but routinely took on bigger players and took them out of their game with physical, annoying, intimidating play. And he wouldn't back down either. Like Bowen, he worked to make himself something of a threat as a 3-point shooter, but wouldn't have come close to the natural ability of most of his teammates. Interesting to note that he was a Riley find; wasn't Bowen as well?

One exception to the great defender/ "dirty" defender rule---Bobby Jones of the Sixers. But he was the exception.

I don't mind a little physical play from a player, but trying to injure the ankles is another thing. Bruises hurt, but they heal. Ankle injuries can take a long while to heal, and NBA players are very susceptible to ankle injuries to begin with. And make no mistake, that is EXACTLY what Bowen was going for on that Francis play.

Dirkadirkastan
11-12-2006, 11:30 PM
Then you'd have hated playing against me, because that's exactly what I'd have done.

You just admitted Bowen's act was intentional, which contradicts your previous argument that he's not a dirty player.

Unless you think breaking ankles isn't dirty, in which case I'd like to know what you think playing dirty is.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 11:33 PM
oh brother..get the post counts involved. So you sit behind a computer and waste your life away -- big effin deal.

You'd be hard pressed to find five sane nba fans that would agree with your assessment of bowen.
Guess I'd just have to go with the people from the league who voted him to all those all-defensive teams.

As for post count---I've been HERE longer than you have, and have probably watched both the Mavericks and the NBA longer than you've been alive. So no offense if I don't take some Johnny-come-lately, bandwagonerring homer's suggestion to go post on a Spurs' board.

MavKikiNYC
11-12-2006, 11:34 PM
And make no mistake, that is EXACTLY what Bowen was going for on that Francis play.

I disagree. At least based on what you can see from those videos. Looked like good tight defense to me.

FINtastic
11-12-2006, 11:37 PM
Like I said, if he was actually interested in contesting the shot, he would have been trying to jump as high as he could. That wouldn't have resulted in his feet being as far apart as they ended up. Sorry, I don't see good tight defense in that video, just a subtle attempt to take someone out of the NBA for 2 weeks.

Dirkadirkastan
11-12-2006, 11:38 PM
As for post count---I've been HERE longer than you have, and have probably watched both the Mavericks and the NBA longer than you've been alive. So no offense if I don't take some Johnny-come-lately, bandwagonerring homer's suggestion to go post on a Spurs' board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

rakesh.s
11-13-2006, 12:00 AM
Guess I'd just have to go with the people from the league who voted him to all those all-defensive teams.

As for post count---I've been HERE longer than you have, and have probably watched both the Mavericks and the NBA longer than you've been alive. So no offense if I don't take some Johnny-come-lately, bandwagonerring homer's suggestion to go post on a Spurs' board.

lol..i'm a johnny come lately. Some of us have a life outside of the internet and I've been here since '02. I re-registered in '03 when the boards changed.

All defense doesn't mean jack...Larry Hughes was on the all defensive team two years ago, too.

Anywho, enjoy the season, knicks fan..The fact that the league is reviewing this speaks for itself.

MavKikiNYC
11-13-2006, 12:25 AM
All defense doesn't mean jack...


Get that crap out of here. You might want to take it to the realgm suns board..you might find one or two people that agree with you.

Dirkadirkastan
11-13-2006, 12:30 AM
Does anyone else notice how Kiki never answers me? I wonder if I'm on someone's ignore list...

Dirkenstien
11-13-2006, 12:32 AM
MavKikiNYC,

You have yet to respond to any argument in an informing or educational way. If you ever wish to be taken seriously you'll need to do better.

As of now you have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.

dude1394
11-13-2006, 12:50 AM
Jump-shooters hate to be crowded.

But mostly they don't like another player to put their feet under them so they could potentially lose their livelyhood.

dude1394
11-13-2006, 12:54 AM
Chauncey then is the exception. However, he later DID lose to Bowen's Spurs.

Yeah, Ray Allen is a loser, a quitter...take your pick....beautiful stroke, but he hasn't been close to winning shi*t, and isn't likely to anytime soon.

I rarely write anything for the sake of being agreed with. And you're about 7, 249 posts short of being able to send me anywhere, but who's counting.

guess Stockman, Malone, Barkley and others h are whiney assess about something since they haven't won squat. I really do not understand why a players professional teams career has much to do with this argument. Somehow they are less honest because they haven't won championships??

MavKikiNYC
11-13-2006, 01:24 AM
I really do not understand why a players professional teams career has much to do with this argument. Somehow they are less honest because they haven't won championships??
It has nothing to do with 'honesty'.

Think in terms of the Widow and the two mites---of having less, but giving proportionately more. Of having less talent, but giving more effort; of being less talented, but being more competitive.

I think that's a lot of the problem for players like Carter and Allen. They don't think that a lesser talent like Bowen belongs on the court with them; that he shouldn't be able to challenge them. And it frustrates them when through sheer effort and determination, he not only challenges them, but takes them out of their game. Bowen makes significant contributions, some clutch plays even, for championship teams, while a player like Carter fakes injuries in Toronto, and admits to not giving a full effort in order to force a trade.

Ray Allen? I've seen him wither often enough in pressure situations (not even playoff games) to know that he doesn't have Bowen's mental toughness, doesn't have the will to assert the talent that he has. He's a front runner and a high rider. He can be taken out of his game because he doesn't have the discipline or focus of a player like Bruce Bowen.

If either of them had Bowen's attitude and mental tenacity, they would be Jordan-like. But they don't. Instead, they skate by on physical talent, but fade (or choke) in the clutch. And when a player like Bowen comes along and makes things difficult for them, they whine about cheap shots. The reality is that Bowen out-competes them.

Would've been interesting to've seen a player like Bowen on last year's Mavs against the Heat. I don't think that he himself would've made the difference, but...if say a Josh Howard had a little more of Bowen's resolve, focus, discipline and toughness....who knows? Instead, Josh will probably spend the best years of his career getting by on his physical talent alone. Maybe he'll mature, but I don't see signs of it yet.

Like him or not, Bowen has yielded disproportionate results with his talent. He's a winner.


FWIW, here's what current NYK and former teammate Malik Rose said about Bowen:


Former Spur Malik Rose chimed in with his thoughts, "I can honestly say I don't think he's a dirtyplayer, " said Malik Rose, Bowen's former teammate in San Antonio. "But that stuff happens a lot and he's the common denominator. But he works so hard on defense. When I played with him I thought those guys were all just crybabies. But being on the other end of it now, I don't know. But I still won't say he's a dirtyplayer."

dirno2000
11-13-2006, 01:27 AM
If the league is really looking into this, they shouldn't wrap the investigation before looking at Pat Riley and the Heat.

James Posey did this for the entire series, as did Shaq and Haslem to a lesser extent. Sometimes Posey wouldn't even leave the ground, he'd just slide a foot under Dirk.

dude1394
11-13-2006, 01:28 AM
Let's give a benefit of the doubt that he's even a dirty player. What if he's just a dangerous (to others) player? don't ou have to curtail that? It certainly appears that he almost go two knicks this week and I'm pretty sure others as well.

dude1394
11-13-2006, 01:29 AM
If the league is really looking into this, they shouldn't wrap the investigation before looking at Pat Riley and the Heat.

James Posey did this for the entire series, as did Shaq and Haslem to a lesser extent. Sometimes Posey wouldn't even leave the ground, he'd just slide a foot under Dirk.

I agree 100000000000% with you dirno. It ahappens to dirk quite a bit, just enough for dirk to know he has to fade some more or spead his legs or fall backwards.

Dirkadirkastan
11-13-2006, 02:03 AM
I'm wondering if you're even seeing any of my posts so I will post the link again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Kiki, you keep making the same mistake. You judge Thomas's arguments based on reputation. You judge Bowen's actions based on reputation. Hell, you even judge the arguments of people in this forum based on age and how many posts they have! You'll never be objective until you disregard who's saying what and just look at the evidence. You think Wade deserved all his ref-love in the Finals because he's such a great player too?

Would someone quote my post in a subsequent response, please? I seriously wonder whether Kiki can see any of my posts.

Big Shot Rob
11-13-2006, 02:05 AM
The fact is that Bowen is one of the toughest players playing defense in the NBA today. He does not back away from Kobe, Ray Allen, et al--he stays close to them and is a master in getting in their heads. With the exception of the playoffs last year, he has had some pretty good games against the Mavs in the past.

I do not believe that he is a dirty player, but I also am concerned if a disproportionate number of players get hurt by his defense. I know that once a player gets a reputation, its hard to shake.

For what its worth, Kobe Bryant has always said that Bowen is the toughtest player who has ever defended against him. The Knick player who was hurt, Francis, stated that he does not think that Bowen intended to hurt him.

This will always be a controversial topic. All I know is that if Bowen was a free agent at the end of this season, Cuban would love to add him to the Mav roster. And whether you guys want to admit it or not, if Bowen became a Maverick, the people that are here trashing him from here to kingdom come would welcome him with open arms.

Nash13
11-13-2006, 02:24 AM
The fact is that Bowen is one of the toughest players playing defense in the NBA today. He does not back away from Kobe, Ray Allen, et al--he stays close to them and is a master in getting in their heads. With the exception of the playoffs last year, he has had some pretty good games against the Mavs in the past.

I do not believe that he is a dirty player, but I also am concerned if a disproportionate number of players get hurt by his defense. I know that once a player gets a reputation, its hard to shake.

For what its worth, Kobe Bryant has always said that Bowen is the toughtest player who has ever defended against him. The Knick player who was hurt, Francis, stated that he does not think that Bowen intended to hurt him.

This will always be a controversial topic. All I know is that if Bowen was a free agent at the end of this season, Cuban would love to add him to the Mav roster. And whether you guys want to admit it or not, if Bowen became a Maverick, the people that are here trashing him from here to kingdom come would welcome him with open arms.

I generally like your post, but that's just pure crap.

I have a very hard time believing that. I highly doubt players intentionally fake injury and risk getting kicked out of games for fighting just because of a bruised ego. Many players have missed games b/c of him; not just stopped by bowen, but injured by bowen. I mean, i know you're a spurs fan and all, but it's not that hard to fathom.

And as far as what you said about players like Carter and Allen getting by on physical talent, that's even more crap. By those standards, you're putting the entire NBA on trial. Teams rely on players with offensive skills to score points and compete in games. Players like Carter and Allen are the reason bowen has a job. I'm pretty sure every guard could give up the "physical" talents to turn into a bowen-type player, then they wouldn't exist.

Big Shot Rob
11-13-2006, 02:51 AM
I generally like your post, but that's just pure crap.

I have a very hard time believing that. I highly doubt players intentionally fake injury and risk getting kicked out of games for fighting just because of a bruised ego. Many players have missed games b/c of him; not just stopped by bowen, but injured by bowen. I mean, i know you're a spurs fan and all, but it's not that hard to fathom.

And as far as what you said about players like Carter and Allen getting by on physical talent, that's even more crap. By those standards, you're putting the entire NBA on trial. Teams rely on players with offensive skills to score points and compete in games. Players like Carter and Allen are the reason bowen has a job. I'm pretty sure every guard could give up the "physical" talents to turn into a bowen-type player, then they wouldn't exist.

I'm thinking that maybe you unintentionally merged my points with someone else's posts. I did not denigrate other players--what I meant simply is that Bowen plays very tough defense, He acquired a reputation for being a dirty player--and once you get a reputation in the NBA for anything, that reputation generally follows you and grows with time.

Like I said before--whether Bowen's tactics are dirty or not--I am concerned if a disproportiante number of players are getting hurt after playing against him. If that is the case--whether it is intentional or not, there is a problem, in my opinion. Logically, if I drive my car down the block at 90 mph because I am late for work and hit a child crossing the street, it is no defense that I did not intend to hurt the child but simply meant to get to work on time.

In Bowen's case, I think the question is whether his method of defense is reckless. His actions are not aimed at trying to hurt players. The question thus becomes--does his method of defending against opposing players place a degree of risk to the opponent that a reasonable person could should have known that his style would cause injury.

I don't know the answer to this. I am trying to be fair about this. I have a great deal of respect for Bruce amd do not believe that he defends players with the intent to cause them injury.

I do not believe this is the end of the inquiry, however. Maybe after the NBA front office takes a look at his pattern of play, we can have an answer once and for all because I hate to think that any player with the Spurs poses a danger to opposing players.

I stand by my earlier remarks, however. Mav fans would love to have him on their roster, regardless of what the NBA ultimately says about him.

twelli
11-13-2006, 04:54 AM
Bowen looks as guilty as a guilty player can look.

Wonder if there is any statistic for number of sprained ankles caused by a player. That would be interesting to see.

Bowen probably will argue that as soon as a shot is released he turns to the basket to see if he can get the long rebound causing his left foot to come close to the shooter.

Next time I watch a game I will watch how other defenders move in this situation.

If a player does it on purpose, how dangerous could it be for himself? Could he end up with a broken foot?

capitalcity
11-13-2006, 06:03 AM
Bruce Bowen is a dirty motherfucker.

capitalcity
11-13-2006, 06:14 AM
Dirty.

http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24918&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24488&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24040&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21910&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20996&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20962&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15207&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14918&

Any position to the contrary is untenable.

Usually Lurkin
11-13-2006, 06:52 AM
And whether you guys want to admit it or not, if Bowen became a Maverick, the people that are here trashing him from here to kingdom come would welcome him with open arms.

well, if he were kicking Ginobli in the back
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260326025

and stepping underneath Tony Parker, you'd be trashing him as often as you could.

pulling shirts, pushing and shoving when the refs not looking, getting in an elbow dig wherever possible, smacking the arm for a hard foul on a layup, those are tough, borderline dirty defensive tactics that I can stomach, and some might admire. And occasionally letting your emotions get to you, or accidently fouling too hard I can forgive. But Bowen has a long history of doing stuff that looks like it was intentionally meant to hurt others: kicking people in the face, in the back, sliding a foot under them. He obviously hasn't been inclined to play in a more safe manner. Probably because he keeps getting rewarded for it.

Dirkenstien
11-13-2006, 08:10 AM
well, if he were kicking Ginobli in the back
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260326025

and stepping underneath Tony Parker, you'd be trashing him as often as you could.

pulling shirts, pushing and shoving when the refs not looking, getting in an elbow dig wherever possible, smacking the arm for a hard foul on a layup, those are tough, borderline dirty defensive tactics that I can stomach, and some might admire. And occasionally letting your emotions get to you, or accidently fouling too hard I can forgive. But Bowen has a long history of doing stuff that looks like it was intentionally meant to hurt others: kicking people in the face, in the back, sliding a foot under them. He obviously hasn't been inclined to play in a more safe manner. Probably because he keeps getting rewarded for it.


Absolutely Lurkin, he continues to do it because not only does he get away with it, but he gets rewarded for it. I'm glad Thomas had the balls to stand up and say something because this is now a window of national exposure to his dirty antics. Also in the videos, watch how everytime he is called out for it he starts pouting and acting like he has no idea what's going on? Yeah...he's perfected this craft and I think he knows exactly what he's doing and how to manipulate the situation to make him look like the victim.

Dirkenstien
11-13-2006, 08:12 AM
I'm wondering if you're even seeing any of my posts so I will post the link again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Kiki, you keep making the same mistake. You judge Thomas's arguments based on reputation. You judge Bowen's actions based on reputation. Hell, you even judge the arguments of people in this forum based on age and how many posts they have! You'll never be objective until you disregard who's saying what and just look at the evidence. You think Wade deserved all his ref-love in the Finals because he's such a great player too?

Would someone quote my post in a subsequent response, please? I seriously wonder whether Kiki can see any of my posts.

Don't worry Dirkadirkastan, I know exactly what you mean. Mavkiki is just notorious for not being able to respond to a good post with anything worthy of reading.

Five-ofan
11-13-2006, 08:46 AM
http://images.poundingtherock.com/images/admin/bowen_kick.gif

I never get tired of seeing this...More "clean" defense from bowen....

fluid.forty.one
11-13-2006, 08:49 AM
http://images.poundingtherock.com/images/admin/bowen_kick.gif

I never get tired of seeing this...More "clean" defense from bowen....

LOL

Flacolaco
11-13-2006, 09:00 AM
lol that's hilarious. We need more flying ninja shananigans in the NBA....

Dirkadirkastan
11-13-2006, 09:42 AM
Don't worry Dirkadirkastan, I know exactly what you mean. Mavkiki is just notorious for not being able to respond to a good post with anything worthy of reading.

All right, thanks for the heads up. I was getting frustrated because I have had the same problem a couple of times in the political section too. But it seemed like Kiki was always quick to reply to everyone else's posts, even though I saw nothing uniquely good or bad in mine.

Usually Lurkin
11-13-2006, 09:43 AM
I don't know how many times I've heard coaches stressing solid, fundamental defense, "lead with the feet" they always say, "lead with the feet."

MavKikiNYC
11-13-2006, 09:55 AM
Isiah off hook
NBA OK on threat to Bowen
BY FRANK ISOLA

DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER I

Neither Isiah Thomas nor the Spurs' Bruce Bowen is expected to face further disciplinary action for their conduct during the Knicks' loss to San Antonio on Saturday, a league spokesman said yesterday.

Bowen accused Thomas of threatening him during the game, saying the coach said he would "break his neck." Thomas became upset because he felt Bowen was intentionally sticking his foot under Jamal Crawford as the Knick guard was leaving his feet to take a jump shot, a tactic that Bowen has been accused of by Vince Carter and Ray Allen. Both Thomas and Bowen were called for technical fouls.

Thomas also shouted to his players that the "next time (Bowen) does that, break his --- foot."

The Knicks, who were off yesterday, did not comment on Bowen's accusation.

The incident came one day after Thomas said before the Knicks-Rockets game how he would have reacted during his playing days if someone had used a similar method.

"I'd beat the --- out of somebody," Thomas said Friday. "Really, I would --- murder them. ... There's certain things you don't do."

When Spurs coach Gregg Popovich was informed of Thomas' remark prior to Saturday's game, he said: "That's kind of a Mike Tyson comment, a little bit over the edge possibly. I'm sure he's just frustrated."

After Thomas screamed at Bowen, he and Popovich exchanged heated words, with Popovich telling Thomas, "Don't talk to my players." (Popovich, a close friend of Larry Brown, testified in Brown's arbitration hearing against the Knicks in late September.)

On Saturday, Thomas waved off Popovich and uttered a profanity before turning back to the Spurs' coach and shouting, "Tell your player not to keep sticking his foot under my players." Both coaches had to be restrained by their assistants.

After the game, Thomas and Popovich met at midcourt, shook hands and came to an agreement that the flareup was simply the result of intensity and gamesmanship.

Tim Duncan, however, didn't see it that way. The Spurs' All-Star power forward sharply criticized Thomas for threatening Bowen and nearly creating an ugly scene.

"It's a bad situation when a coach puts himself in that position and goes after a player," Duncan said on Saturday. "It's very uncalled for. I don't know what his intentions were with that and we have bigger plans than trying to hurt somebody. I would hope that people would understand and respect that and obviously they don't."

Thomas maintains that his decision to challenge Bowen was two-fold: he was protecting his players while trying to motivate his tired and flat team, which was trailing by 13 eight minutes into the game. Under the circumstances, both reasons seemed valid.

Last Monday at the Garden, Steve Francis suffered a sprained left ankle when he landed on Bowen's foot after going up for a jump shot. Like the Crawford play, Bowen was not called for a foul. Francis, who has refused to call Bowen's actions dirty, has missed three straight games.

The Knicks asked the NBA to review a videotape, and the league said yesterday that Bowen would not be punished despite a league mandate to regulate such tactics.

An opposing team official believes the league needs to start calling that foul on Bowen.

"I watched the play where Francis was hurt and I thought it definitely should have been a foul," the official said. "That needs to be stopped."

Dirkenstien
11-13-2006, 10:09 AM
Duncan: "It's a bad situation when a coach puts himself in that position and goes after a player. It's very uncalled for. I don't know what his intentions were with that and we have bigger plans than trying to hurt somebody. I would hope that people would understand and respect that and obviously they don't."

What an idiot. How were Thomas' actions uncalled for when he's trying to protect his players from further injury? Of course their overall plans are bigger than just to go out and hurt somebody, but you cannot convince me or the rest of the non-blind logical world that Bowen doesn't do it. Especially when that means his team gets closer to achieving that "bigger plan" because of his actions.

dude1394
11-13-2006, 10:19 AM
The Knicks asked the NBA to review a videotape, and the league said yesterday that Bowen would not be punished despite a league mandate to regulate such tactics.

An opposing team official believes the league needs to start calling that foul on Bowen.

"I watched the play where Francis was hurt and I thought it definitely should have been a foul," the official said. "That needs to be stopped."

Pretty selective bolding there kiki.. Thought I would help you out. So at the end of all of this the official says that it's a bad play and needs to be stopped. The bruce bowen rule.

My contention is that a foul is not nearly enough of a penalty for endangering someone's livelyhood.

DelNegro
11-13-2006, 10:20 AM
Duncan: "It's a bad situation when a coach puts himself in that position and goes after a player. It's very uncalled for. I don't know what his intentions were with that and we have bigger plans than trying to hurt somebody. I would hope that people would understand and respect that and obviously they don't."

What an idiot. How were Thomas' actions uncalled for when he's trying to protect his players from further injury? Of course their overall plans are bigger than just to go out and hurt somebody, but you cannot convince me or the rest of the non-blind logical world that Bowen doesn't do it. Especially when that means his team gets closer to achieving that "bigger plan" because of his actions.

You protect your players by talking to the refs, not by threatening the player directly or by telling your players to hurt someone. Basketball isn't hockey.

MavKikiNYC
11-13-2006, 10:24 AM
Pretty selective bolding there kiki.. Thought I would help you out. So at the end of all of this the official says that it's a bad play and needs to be stopped. The bruce bowen rule.

My contention is that a foul is not nearly enough of a penalty for endangering someone's livelyhood.
Let me help you with your context--that "official" was an anonymous NBA team functionary/executive, not an NBA referee.

dude1394
11-13-2006, 10:28 AM
Let me help you with your context--that "official" was an anonymous NBA team functionary/executive, not an NBA referee.

cuban? :)

sike
11-13-2006, 10:35 AM
the only guys who don't think Bowen are Spurs....and I bet if you got a couple drinks in 'em....

oh...wait......I mean the only NBA players who don't think Bowen is dirty...I didn't mean bias fans...

MavsX
11-13-2006, 10:48 AM
lol that's hilarious. We need more flying ninja shananigans in the NBA....

hahhh

Usually Lurkin
11-13-2006, 11:25 AM
uh, the league will not find anything wrong with the way Bowen plays (or anyone else who might use the same tactics). They don't care so much about the existence of dirty/unfair play as much as they care about the perception that it exists.

Dirkenstien
11-13-2006, 11:37 AM
You protect your players by talking to the refs, not by threatening the player directly or by telling your players to hurt someone. Basketball isn't hockey.


Plenty of coaches have complained to refs about Bowen's tactics with the result being no fouls called on Bowen and more players severely twisting their ankles. So I'll ask you again, is that really protecting your players?

I would sure as heck hope to the high heavens that if he were doing that to Dirk, AJ would do more than just try and handle the situation in a civil manner. No, it hasn't worked in the past and something needed to be done. For that I applaud Isiah.

Flacolaco
11-13-2006, 11:50 AM
You protect your players by talking to the refs, not by threatening the player directly or by telling your players to hurt someone. Basketball isn't hockey.

that's not done in hockey either. hockey players have a great respect for eachother, and while they will for sure go out looking to hit someone to send a message, the intent is never to HURT someone and I resent the implicaiton.

DelNegro
11-13-2006, 12:13 PM
Plenty of coaches have complained to refs about Bowen's tactics with the result being no fouls called on Bowen and more players severely twisting their ankles. So I'll ask you again, is that really protecting your players?

I would sure as heck hope to the high heavens that if he were doing that to Dirk, AJ would do more than just try and handle the situation in a civil manner. No, it hasn't worked in the past and something needed to be done. For that I applaud Isiah.

So if I'm a coach and one of my players lands on Dirk's ankle and I feel that it was a dirty play on Dirk's part are you okay with me telling my players to go intentionally try to hurt him? Doesn't matter whether or not Dirk has a rep as a dirty player, by letting coaches take justice into their own hands I get to decide whether or not Dirk is guilty and I get to decide whether or not Dirk deserves to get injured because of it. Do you really want coaches to be making decisions like that?

DelNegro
11-13-2006, 12:25 PM
that's not done in hockey either. hockey players have a great respect for eachother, and while they will for sure go out looking to hit someone to send a message, the intent is never to HURT someone and I resent the implicaiton.

I should have clarified. In hockey if someone crosses the line there will be a fight and that is a much different mechanism than taking a cheap shot during the course of play. The analogy I was trying to draw was that in hockey there is a way for players to police the game amongst themselves and in basketball there really isn't. No offense to hockey players was intended.

capitalcity
11-13-2006, 12:36 PM
So if I'm a coach and one of my players lands on Dirk's ankle and I feel that it was a dirty play on Dirk's part are you okay with me telling my players to go intentionally try to hurt him? Doesn't matter whether or not Dirk has a rep as a dirty player, by letting coaches take justice into their own hands I get to decide whether or not Dirk is guilty and I get to decide whether or not Dirk deserves to get injured because of it. Do you really want coaches to be making decisions like that?Nice spin.

Isiah's conduct isn't even an issue if your boy Bruce doesn't slide his foot under an elevated player - again. The league does not have a problem with vigilante coaches. What evidence suggests, time and again, is that they have a problem governing players actions.

Dirty like the shit creek you call the riverwalk. Dirty.

raefformvp
11-13-2006, 12:42 PM
while I find some of Bowen's defensive tactics questionable, to me the real story here is this quote from Thomas:

"I'd beat the --- out of somebody," Thomas said Friday. "Really, I would --- murder them. ... There's certain things you don't do."

so, Thomas thinks that murder is the solution to dealing with the dirty defense of Bowen? horrible, despicable reaction from a coach. to me, this is way worse than Bowen's actions. while Bowen has shown me some dirty play in the past, it is at least in the course of a game. I don't think f'ing murdering the opponent is on his agenda. that comment truly disgusts me, and I'm shocked that the league is letting the comment go. threats to kill someone should not be a part of basketball.

MavKikiNYC
11-13-2006, 12:54 PM
so, Thomas thinks that murder is the solution to dealing with the dirty defense of Bowen? horrible, despicable reaction from a coach. to me, this is way worse than Bowen's actions. while Bowen has shown me some dirty play in the past, it is at least in the course of a game. I don't think f'ing murdering the opponent is on his agenda. that comment truly disgusts me, and I'm shocked that the league is letting the comment go. threats to kill someone should not be a part of basketball.

I tend to agree. The true instigator here is Thomas. For all Stern's efforts to clean up the league and to avoid another brawl, Thomas mouths off to try to motivate the hand-picked players who were quitting on him. The next time Thomas pops off to a player, they should crack his dam*ed jaw.

Stern totally dropped the ball here; he could've easily edged Thomas toward the door, and the NYKs toward respectability a little sooner by issuing Thomas a 5-10 game suspension. All Dolan needs is one more reason, one more degree of PR cover, and the NYKs and the NBA could be rid of the blight that is Zeke forever.

alexamenos
11-13-2006, 01:01 PM
ankle hunting chaps my hide....

Easy solution, Stu Jackson -- flagrant two for anyone who's foot gets caught under a jumpshooters foot.

alexamenos
11-13-2006, 01:04 PM
I should have clarified. In hockey if someone crosses the line there will be a fight and that is a much different mechanism than taking a cheap shot during the course of play. The analogy I was trying to draw was that in hockey there is a way for players to police the game amongst themselves and in basketball there really isn't. No offense to hockey players was intended.

that's actually a really good point -- the no tolerance policies in the NBA actually make it easier for ankle-hunting dirty players like Bowen to get away things consistently, because he doesn't have to fear any sort of retaliation.

Not that I'm for loosening rules, just that there are generally unintended consequences to any rule.

capitalcity
11-13-2006, 01:14 PM
KiKi - I know you are much closer to this... But it sure seems like Thomas exacerbated the situation only after Bowen's punkass move.

How then did he instigate this incident?

MavKikiNYC
11-13-2006, 02:08 PM
KiKi - I know you are much closer to this... But it sure seems like Thomas exacerbated the situation only after Bowen's punkass move.

How then did he instigate this incident?
CC--Thomas has been BS-ing about toughness (his own) for weeks now, about how he used to fight growing up in Chicago, about how Curry needs to play more "manly" on the court, and about how he intends to make the bunch of losers that he has assembled into "tough" players like he was. (He would love it if ONE of his players would put out the effort that Bowen does.)

Bowen's play was just a pretext. For one thing, it doesn't even look dirty. For another, Francis has said he didn't think Bowen was trying to hurt him. Thomas himself has said that he didn't think Bowen was intentionally trying to hurt either Franics or Crawford. But he (Thomas) acknowledges (cf below) that the whole barking episode was a tactic to try to fire up his team, who he thought was about to quit on him. Oldest, silliest, stupidest motivational tactic in the book. But Thomas is desperate to that point.

Look, Bowen has a repuation as a player who pushes the limits. Granted, he's been over the line more than once---the kick to Allen's back while Allen was on the floor, the flying kick to Wally's jaw--not his proudest moments. But crowding the shooter is legit--a lot of players don't like to do it because it's not glamorous, and most players particularly jump shooters don't like to have it done to them. But Zeke just saw an opportunity to use Bowen's reputation as a motivational tactic for his sorry, quitting team.

Thomas is really playing to an audience of one--Dolan--trying to buy another day, another week, another month. He thinks Dolan is stupid enough to consider it progress if he can just get his players to stay in the game. So far he's been right. But the boos in the Garden are getting to his players.

Even casual fans (with a few exceptions posting in this thread) are smart enough to see through his ruse regarding Bowen the other night. That was all Zeke Theater. Nothing more, nothing less.

Isiah barks up biting tone
BY ALAN HAHN
Newsday Staff Writer

November 13, 2006

Was it an example of his increasing desperation, or was Isiah Thomas' verbal altercation with Bruce Bowen on Saturday night merely a move that speaks to his tough, throwback mentality ?

Thomas said he was "protecting his players," from Bowen's notorious leg kick, which already cost Steve Francis a sprained ankle and almost got Jamal Crawford. But Thomas also said his tirade was a calculated motivational tactic to spark his Knicks team, which was ending a three-game road trip and looked, as Thomas put it, "ready to pack our bags" against the San Antonio Spurs.

http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/trb.newsday/sports/basketball/knicks;ptype=s;rg=ur;ref=googlecom;sz=300x250;tile =2;ord=2463404 (http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/trb.newsday/sports/basketball/knicks;ptype=s;rg=ur;ref=googlecom;tile=2;sz=300x2 50;ord=2463404)With owner James Dolan perhaps ready to pack Thomas' bags if the losses keep mounting, it is this survivalist instinct, born from the Chicago streets, that is coming out as the Knicks have stumbled to a predictable 2-5 start.


"My job is to set the tone and I will set the tone," said Thomas, who was spared any discipline from the NBA for his part in Saturday's shouting match. "Eventually, we'll get there."

That much is still up for debate, as is whether or not Dolan will give Thomas the time he continually says the Knicks need before they show the "significant improvement" Dolan has demanded.

And with two home games this week - against LeBron James and the Cavaliers tonight and against Gilbert Arenas and the Wizards on Wednesday - the paying customers will again get to voice their opinions about Thomas' team, which isn't winning but is, at the very least, showing signs of competitive fire it lacked last season under Larry Brown.

As Thomas has constantly reminded, the injury loss of Jared Jeffries (fractured wrist) looms large in these games because of his ability to defend top players. Quentin Richardson, who leads the team with 19.1 points per game, also has carried the load on the defensive end, challenging the likes of Carmelo Anthony and Tracy McGrady and will probably draw the James assignment tonight. But it's going to take more than the return of Jeffries for the Knicks to be a better defensive team.

And never mind Channing Frye's shooting slump, his struggle to be a consistent rebounder and low-post defensive presence at the power forward position has to have Thomas the coach begging Thomas the team president to find via a trade someone who can. After seven games, Frye is averaging 4.1 rebounds per game. Reserve David Lee leads the team at 8.7. Richardson, at 6-6, is second with seven rebounds per game.

These may be areas of desperate need, but after delivering his win-or-else edict last June (along with shelling out millions to make Larry Brown, Jalen Rose and Maurice Taylor go away), it's unlikely Dolan is willing to approve any significant additions to the payroll.

So the answers will have to come from within. At least as long as Thomas is at the helm. And, therefore, the motivating likely will continue to come in different forms.

"You just keep them focused," Thomas said, "and keep myself focused."

Tonight's carrot will be to try and win back the Garden fans, who were disenchanted throughout most of the first two home games (both losses), and to try and not let King James deliver a Jordanesque performance.

"We've got to change that mindset across the league to that, you know, when you come to New York it's a tough building to play in," Thomas said. "And we're going to try to do everything we can to distract you from having your best performances. Save your best performances for other arenas. We don't necessarily want them in ours."

Usually Lurkin
11-13-2006, 02:16 PM
crowding a player is not the same as sticking your foot under a player. I don't know how anyone can watch the francis clip and say that Bowen didn't slide his foot on purpose. Same with the Vince Carter clip.

Kiki, are you seriously advocating that Stern get involved in franchise politics, and that he should do something to help remove Isaiah from the Knicks?

Dirkadirkastan
11-13-2006, 02:17 PM
My contention is that a foul is not nearly enough of a penalty for endangering someone's livelyhood.

Agreed. Call the flagrant!!

MavKikiNYC
11-13-2006, 02:23 PM
Kiki, are you seriously advocating that Stern get involved in franchise politics, and that he should do something to help remove Isaiah from the Knicks?

Absolutely.

As if he hasn't done it before?

dalmations202
11-13-2006, 02:42 PM
All it will take is one fist/elbow from the jump-shooter across the brow of the defenders head causing either a bloody broken nose, or a mild concussion, and this will stop.

I saw this exact thing happen in a high-school game 20 years ago, and when the jump-shooter decided to end it, the "close" defensive execution that kept landing the jump-shooter on his backside with a twisted ankle -- ended.

Now it ended with a bench clearing brawl, and lots of fists being thrown, but it ended never the less. I seriously doubt that defender ever tries to step-under a player again.

Funny thing was - the refs never saw the fist come down on the defender after the shot. Now the camera's saw it, but not the refs. The refs were watching the ball, and the play inside.

Dirkadirkastan
11-13-2006, 02:49 PM
The main thing wrong with Thomas's actions is that they take attention away from Bowen, and it's interesting that Kiki thinks threatening to hurt someone is worse than actually trying to do so.

I think Bowen's reputation as a good defender should be put in question as well. A lot of people say "He's such a good defender, so he wouldn't need to try anything dirty anyway" or something like that. But how did he get that reputation? If he plays dirty, that probably plays a large part. If he doesn't, then his reputation is well deserved. But trying to use his reputation in his defense is circular reasoning.

It's like a con man who rips you off. You may have trusted him because he has a great reputation, but once you've been swindled, you're not going to say "Oh, he's such a great guy most of the time, this won't change how I think of him." Instead you realize that his swindling is the basis for that reputation, and is thus a false portrayal.

Five-ofan
11-13-2006, 02:55 PM
there are 2 REALLY simple ways to stop this. ONE land with all of your weight on the arch of his foot, and 2(the more effective) slide your foot forward and land with a substantial portion of your weight on the side of his knee, hell never play basketball again. I know that sounds crappy and ill come right out and say it is but no more so than him repeatedly injuring players on purpose and Kiki, your hate for Isiah is blinding you on this one. I dont blame you for hating Isiah and Im definitely not saying hes in the right(mentioning murder?) but that doesnt mean bowen is right either.

kes1357
11-13-2006, 02:56 PM
I doubt that Francis really believes that it's all too clean either.... This is getting ridiculous, and I still never saw anyone saying Bowen was clean on the ninja kick. He can say all he wants, he was trying to box out and all that crap, but you don't stick your foot out while pretending to follow the ball with your head. Anyone that plays bball will know where the guy will land and put their foot there. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what turning the ankle will do, especially the "other" direction, it'll tear the cartilage right off.

Those are dirty plays, and not because it happened, but the amount of times it happened. You don't continually get into that kind of problems by crowding people.

As for the argument that it's because they frustrate em.... Vince Carter scored 47 pts before that happened. I doubt Carter was having any problems with Bowen's defense....

But if you want to retort towards this, go to the Wally situation and start there.

Five-ofan
11-13-2006, 03:08 PM
http://datznasty.freepgs.com/bowen.jpg

No video this time but its clear that bowen does a great job of "leading with his feet"

Dirkenstien
11-13-2006, 03:27 PM
http://datznasty.freepgs.com/bowen.jpg

No video this time but its clear that bowen does a great job of "leading with his feet"


Crap, I didn't even see that one. I really despised Bowen before, but now it's official: I absolutely hate the guy.

rmacomic
11-13-2006, 03:34 PM
I always knew Bowen was as bad to ankles as Kathy Bates in Misery, but I never realized he had such a great spin kick, Move over Jet Lee Hollywood has a new martial arts superstar.
I can see it now Bruce Bowen and Chris Tucker in Rush Hour 3
Bowen: Can't you understand the words coming out of my mouth.
Tucker: No can understand the words coming out of your mouth.
Bowen:*breaks Tucker's leg*

Five-ofan
11-13-2006, 03:36 PM
http://datznasty.freepgs.com/bowen.jpg

No video this time but its clear that bowen does a great job of "leading with his feet"
the funniest part of this picture(though not the point) is GPs face. Just look at it.

fluid.forty.one
11-13-2006, 03:42 PM
Actually, Payton doesn't even seem to care about his teammate taking one in the face, he's just watching the ball lol.

Five-ofan
11-13-2006, 03:44 PM
At the very least we know bruce will be ok once he gets kicked out of the nba, he can always head on over to the UFC

Dirkadirkastan
11-13-2006, 03:48 PM
Payton always has that look on his face.

Is Bowen getting whistled for those headkicks? Sad that I have to wonder...

EricaLubarsky
11-13-2006, 06:39 PM
There is one way you can avoid the sliding foot...




http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4425/johohang2ig.jpg

vinylstar
11-13-2006, 07:34 PM
Honestly, it sounds like blind resentment of the Spurs' success that keeps people from appreciating what Bowen does. Jump-shooters hate to be crowded, hate to be defended, and hate contact. Bowen crowds them, defends them, and irritates them with contact. It's an art, and Bowen's a Picasso.


Irritating with contact is one thing, which Bowen does well. Irritating them with contact by intentionally hurting them is another. I'm not sure how much basketball you play, but I know how to avoid getting under someone. Anyone who calls either of those slide under moves by Bowen incidental doesn't play basketball. For someone who is as quick and has as much control over his body as Bowen does to get under a jump shooter is really questionable. If they were under the boards, that would be a different story.


No way he should be suspended for anything he's done with Crawford or Francis, and in fact if anything comes of it, people should be seriously disturbed that Thomas and the NYKs can get the ear of Stern and Stooge when no one else has been able to over the years.

Yeah. God forbid they start changing that pattern. This is something we should be excited about.

Done.

dude1394
11-15-2006, 07:47 PM
Seems the NBA has warned Bowen to try hard not to cripple other players. Shut up bowen...you need to get a flagrant foul for whining about it. You could have taken away the careers of two (or more people) with your crap.

Spurs notebook: NBA warns Bowen to watch his step when he guards shooters

Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

HOUSTON — When Bruce Bowen's phone rang Sunday afternoon, he didn't need to look at caller ID to know who was on the other end of the line: Stu Jackson, the NBA's executive vice president of basketball operations — otherwise known as the league's czar of discipline.

"With him," Bowen said, "I have a bat line."

Jackson told Bowen he wasn't going to be fined for last week's play involving New York's Steve Francis. But he told Bowen a foul should have been called and he warned Bowen to watch his feet in the future.

Francis sprained his left ankle when he landed on Bowen's foot. The incident drew greater attention when the teams played again Saturday and Knicks coach Isiah Thomas accused Bowen of stepping under players — a complaint Bowen has heard a handful of times in recent seasons.

The league has instructed officials this season to make sure players are allowed to "alight" or land after they shoot.

Jackson "said because of the things that have happened with me, I really need to be aware of the space I'm giving guys to come down," Bowen said. "I said, 'So, if they come down close to me, is that still an infraction on my behalf?' He said no, but it's a foul if they come down on top of you.

"I have no problem with that, but my only concern is if somebody comes close. What if somebody says, 'Owww!' Now do I get a foul?"

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/...ok.88b40e0.html

purplefrog
11-15-2006, 07:51 PM
Spurs notebook: NBA warns Bowen to watch his step when he guards shooters

Web Posted: 11/15/2006 12:20 AM CST

Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

HOUSTON — When Bruce Bowen's phone rang Sunday afternoon, he didn't need to look at caller ID to know who was on the other end of the line: Stu Jackson, the NBA's executive vice president of basketball operations — otherwise known as the league's czar of discipline.
"With him," Bowen said, "I have a bat line."

Jackson told Bowen he wasn't going to be fined for last week's play involving New York's Steve Francis. But he told Bowen a foul should have been called and he warned Bowen to watch his feet in the future.

Francis sprained his left ankle when he landed on Bowen's foot. The incident drew greater attention when the teams played again Saturday and Knicks coach Isiah Thomas accused Bowen of stepping under players — a complaint Bowen has heard a handful of times in recent seasons.

The league has instructed officials this season to make sure players are allowed to "alight" or land after they shoot.

Jackson "said because of the things that have happened with me, I really need to be aware of the space I'm giving guys to come down," Bowen said. "I said, 'So, if they come down close to me, is that still an infraction on my behalf?' He said no, but it's a foul if they come down on top of you.

"I have no problem with that, but my only concern is if somebody comes close. What if somebody says, 'Owww!' Now do I get a foul?"

Houston coach Jeff Van Gundy said he doesn't think the plays in question were committed with malice.

"If he says that's unintentional, who am I to question him?" Van Gundy said. "Some players, any time a guy competes hard against him, the first word they use is 'dirty'. Because you know they don't want to put as much effort into the game as a guy who competes hard.

"John Stockton, I always heard, was dirty. And I thought he just out-competes people. You have the little whiners who are running for cover anytime the game gets tough."

Rockets guard Tracy McGrady also said he has never had a problem facing Bowen.

"I always accepted the challenge of going up against him because he is the best perimeter (defender) in this league," McGrady said.



Looking out for the big men: While the league has cracked down on perimeter contact by defenders, Van Gundy thinks something needs to be done about the punishment big men are taking under the basket.

He wasn't happy when a foul wasn't called after Rockets center Yao Ming was hit in the head Sunday in Miami.

"If we're really concerned about injury prevention," Van Gundy said, "I don't think 'alighting' is the only thing we should be concerned with. Full-force swings to the head are also something."

Thomas misquoted: During its investigation of Bowen and Thomas, the league determined the Knicks coach was misquoted by New York's Newsday newspaper when discussing how he would deal with a player who stepped under him.

The paper reported Thomas as saying, "I'd beat the (expletive) out of somebody. Really, I would (expletive) murder them." A league official, however, said transcripts showed Thomas to have said, "I'd beat the (expletive) out of somebody. That's (expletive) murder."

Fighting words: Van Gundy was talking to reporters outside Houston's locker room early Tuesday evening when he heard someone yell "Bull... !" He turned to see Spurs coach Gregg Popovich smiling at him from down the hall.

"Watch out," Van Gundy yelled back. "I'll fight you."

Retorted Popovich: "You stay on your own bench."


jludden@express-news.net

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 09:16 PM
Interesting.

Two more long-time, high-profile league figures (with a LOT more credibility than Stu Jackson) speak out. Not surprisingly, however, JVG wouldn't mention Carter and Allen by name.

Houston coach Jeff Van Gundy said he doesn't think the plays in question were committed with malice.

"If he says that's unintentional, who am I to question him?" Van Gundy said. "Some players, any time a guy competes hard against him, the first word they use is 'dirty'. Because you know they don't want to put as much effort into the game as a guy who competes hard.

"John Stockton, I always heard, was dirty. And I thought he just out-competes people. You have the little whiners who are running for cover anytime the game gets tough."

Rockets guard Tracy McGrady also said he has never had a problem facing Bowen.

"I always accepted the challenge of going up against him because he is the best perimeter (defender) in this league," McGrady said.





Here's another.
Lenny Wilkens : Bowen Is Not A Dirty Defender

An interesting subplot to this series is all the talk about Bruce Bowen being a dirty player. I do not buy into that hype. He is a good defensive player. He is going to come out and make you work hard. He is not going to give you anything easy and that is the way it should be. You should have to earn everything you get. The guy plays hard and he knows the Spurs are dependant on him playing good defense. That is how he earned his minutes.

spreedom
11-15-2006, 09:39 PM
How could anyone deny this vicious, intentional, cowardly play by Bowen? That compilation that was posted a few days ago showed him performing identical actions against prolific scorers.. he clearly, intentionally steps directly underneath the shooters' feet.

What a cowardly cheap-shot artist.

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 09:44 PM
How could anyone deny this vicious, intentional, cowardly play by Bowen?


Maybe you should ask JVG, TMac and Lenny?

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 09:50 PM
Well, using your logic, what have JVG and TMac ever won? So what do they know about anything? And when in the last 25 years has Lenny Wilkens won anything important? I remember him more for leading a whole bunch of teams to mediocrity during the last decade of his coaching tenure.

dude1394
11-15-2006, 09:54 PM
Well, using your logic, what have JVG and TMac ever won? So what do they know about anything? And when in the last 25 years has Lenny Wilkens won anything important? I remember him more for leading a whole bunch of teams to mediocrity during the last decade of his coaching tenure.

That one might smart a little bit. :)

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 10:03 PM
Well, using your logic, what have JVG and TMac ever won? So what do they know about anything? And when in the last 25 years has Lenny Wilkens won anything important? I remember him more for leading a whole bunch of teams to mediocrity during the last decade of his coaching tenure.
You seem to be misunderstanding, though I suspect you're intentionally misstating the point.

As was alluded to below, the point wasn't about championships, it was about competing--who does, and who doesn't. I'd say TMac has at least as much weight as his cousin Vince, maybe a little more than Ray Allen.

But even going on the basis of your misunderstanding.....

JVG has a championship appearance. He knows the value of players like Bowen.

Lenny has the ring and a championship appearance, and about 40-something years around the league. And unlike Thomas, he's not fighting for his job.

BTW, your resentment toward Bowen wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that he woudn't give Fin's testicle back to him until he signed with the Spurs, would it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394
I really do not understand why a players professional teams career has much to do with this argument. Somehow they are less honest because they haven't won championships??


It has nothing to do with 'honesty'.

Think in terms of the Widow and the two mites---of having less, but giving proportionately more. Of having less talent, but giving more effort; of being less talented, but being more competitive.

I think that's a lot of the problem for players like Carter and Allen. They don't think that a lesser talent like Bowen belongs on the court with them; that he shouldn't be able to challenge them. And it frustrates them when through sheer effort and determination, he not only challenges them, but takes them out of their game. Bowen makes significant contributions, some clutch plays even, for championship teams, while a player like Carter fakes injuries in Toronto, and admits to not giving a full effort in order to force a trade.

Ray Allen? I've seen him wither often enough in pressure situations (not even playoff games) to know that he doesn't have Bowen's mental toughness, doesn't have the will to assert the talent that he has. He's a front runner and a high rider. He can be taken out of his game because he doesn't have the discipline or focus of a player like Bruce Bowen.

If either of them had Bowen's attitude and mental tenacity, they would be Jordan-like. But they don't. Instead, they skate by on physical talent, but fade (or choke) in the clutch. And when a player like Bowen comes along and makes things difficult for them, they whine about cheap shots. The reality is that Bowen out-competes them.

Would've been interesting to've seen a player like Bowen on last year's Mavs against the Heat. I don't think that he himself would've made the difference, but...if say a Josh Howard had a little more of Bowen's resolve, focus, discipline and toughness....who knows? Instead, Josh will probably spend the best years of his career getting by on his physical talent alone. Maybe he'll mature, but I don't see signs of it yet.

Like him or not, Bowen has yielded disproportionate results with his talent. He's a winner.

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 10:08 PM
Just to summarize:

League voices against Bowen:
Thomas (though he later recanted)
Vince Carter
Ray Allen

Voices in defense of Bowen:
Thomas (said he wasn't a dirty player, and wasn't intentionally trying to hurt Francis or Crawford)
Francis (said Bowen wasn't trying to hurt him)
JVG
TMac
Kobe (who knows from dirty)
Lenny Wilkens
Malik Rose
G. Poppovich
Tim Duncan

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 10:15 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. We're really shortening this list of Bowen enemies.

Let's add Michael Finley and Don Nelson (they were pretty hopping mad after that one game and threw some shots in there). Oh and we have Peja who said he plays dirty sometimes. Stu Jackson who left a message all but saying he was dirty.

And why do Tim Duncan and Gregg Popovich count? What are they supposed to say? "Yeah, we play with one of the dirtiest players in the NBA and a known cheater. But we still love the guy." I mean seriously, when do players ever really call their own teammates out unless they are in a feud (a la Shaq and Kobe) or in a book maybe 20 years after the fact? Tim isn't going to admit Bruce is dirty because that would: A) sour relations with Bowen and B) further catch the league's attention to Bowen's dirty tactics.

spreedom
11-15-2006, 10:15 PM
Majority rules. Case closed. Nobel Prize for Bowen, the ultimate sportsman.

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 10:17 PM
Majority rules. Case closed. Nobel Prize for Bowen, the ultimate sportsman.

lmao, even if it is a pretty flawed sample space he is using to find the majority. Good luck running that by a Statistics professor,

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 10:20 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. We're really shortening this list of Bowen enemies.

Let's add Michael Finley and Don Nelson (they were pretty hopping mad after that one game and threw some shots in there). Oh and we have Peja who said he plays dirty sometimes. Stu Jackson who left a message all but saying he was dirty.

And why do Tim Duncan and Gregg Popovich count? What are they supposed to say? "Yeah, we play with one of the dirtiest players in the NBA and a known cheater. But we still love the guy." I mean seriously, when do players ever really call their own teammates out unless they are in a feud (a la Shaq and Kobe) or in a book maybe 20 years after the fact? Tim isn't going to admit Bruce is dirty because that would: A) sour relations with Bowen and B) further catch the league's attention to Bowen's dirty tactics.

Feel free to add. Mark Cuban has probably had some choice words about Bowen, but he'd sign him in a second if he were available.

But by your logic, if his teammates can't defend him, why should his opponents be able to criticize him?
How can you take as credible the heat-of-the-moment bleatings of his neuterered opponents?

Seemingly more credible would be observers with some detachment: Van Gundy, Wilkens, for example.

In any case, his former teammate (current NYK) Malik Rose DID defend him, even at the risk of incurring Isiah's wrath for conradicting him, and exposing Thomas's brouhaha as a sham. Also, would be interesting to know what Finley's perspective would be now.

Don Nelson? Who cares.

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 10:22 PM
lmao, even if it is a pretty flawed sample space he is using to find the majority. Good luck running that by a Statistics professor,

And damn I was heading right to a statistics professor.

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 10:30 PM
You seem to be misunderstanding, though I suspect you're intentionally misstating the point.

As was alluded to below, the point wasn't about championships, it was about competing--who does, and who doesn't. I'd say TMac has at least as much weight as his cousin Vince, maybe a little more than Ray Allen.

But even going on the basis of your misunderstanding.....

JVG has a championship appearance. He knows the value of players like Bowen.

Lenny has the ring and a championship appearance, and about 40-something years around the league. And unlike Thomas, he's not fighting for his job.

BTW, your resentment toward Bowen wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that he woudn't give Fin's testicle back to him until he signed with the Spurs, would it?

The main reason that Lenny isn't fighting for a job is because he has no job. That's right, he was so bad in his last one that he didn't even meet Isiah's standards and got fired (ok, well a bit of an exaggeration as obviously Isiah can't hold Lenny's post-playing-days-jock).

And JVG was also one freakish Alan Houston shot away from getting fired after that 1999 season. He got lucky, caught lightning in a bottle, and had a very short championship appearance in a pretty down year. Cool. If it wasn't for that shot, this might be what JVG was best known for:

http://sports.espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/van_gundy_fight.jpg

As for the Finley thing, I guess you are going off the username I created 5 years ago. Yeah I guess I decided Bowen was pretty worthless when he decked Michael Finley at midcourt for no apparent reason. But you know what? Nothing I have seen since that day has convinced me otherwise.

But I digress, we could play this game of debunking the credentials all day, the whole point, is that I can see the video with my own two eyes. And when I look at it, it looks pretty darn dirty. And there seem to be a lot of fans (not just Mavs fans mind you) who think the same.

dude1394
11-15-2006, 10:35 PM
Feel free to add. Mark Cuban has probably had some choice words about Bowen, but he'd sign him in a second if he were available.


I don't quite understand why this is relevant. Cubes would sign the devil if he thought it would win a ring.

Five-ofan
11-15-2006, 10:36 PM
Don Nelson? Who cares.

Anyone who would care what lenny wilkins thinks? Their resumes are remarkably similar except that big Don still has a job while Lenny doesnt. Dont let that get in the way of you being a jack___ though.

dude1394
11-15-2006, 10:36 PM
Anyone have photos or video of finley getting sucker-punched by bowen?

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 10:38 PM
Feel free to add. Mark Cuban has probably had some choice words about Bowen, but he'd sign him in a second if he were available.

But by your logic, if his teammates can't defend him, why should his opponents be able to criticize him?
How can you take as credible the heat-of-the-moment bleatings of his neuterered opponents?

Seemingly more credible would be observers with some detachment: Van Gundy, Wilkens, for example.

In any case, his former teammate (current NYK) Malik Rose DID defend him, even at the risk of incurring Isiah's wrath for conradicting him, and exposing Thomas's brouhaha as a sham. Also, would be interesting to know what Finley's perspective would be now.

Don Nelson? Who cares.

It would be a lot more interesting to know Finley's perspective in about 10 years or so when he is out of the league and has cut ties with Bowen. Obviously Bowen knew he did something to Finley. He was pretty quick to wine and dine him as soon as he came to SA to make sure they mended ties. Which btw goes back to why teammates have no credibility on this issue. They can't call out other teammates on issues like that because it causes disruption about the chemistry, especially on a winning team like that. Even if you have a jerk teammate, you bite your tongue and let it go. Plus, you are a lot less likely to notice that crap playing with someone than playing against it. What does Malik Rose care about undermining Thomas' authority? He has none. But that's why I didn't ever question Malik because it is the one of the few legit ones you had.

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 10:40 PM
I don't quite understand why this is relevant. Cubes would sign the devil if he thought it would win a ring.

Cubes needs to talk to Jerry Jones then. I'm sure he's got an extra one of Satan's business cards lying around from the mid-90s.

purplefrog
11-15-2006, 10:41 PM
Even though I think it is more likely than not that Bowen is intentionally making this move, I also think the Stu Jackson and the NBA office possibly did the right thing. Intentionality is a difficult thing to prove, so the first step is to give Bowen a warning (like they did) that the refs will call a foul if this happens again. If indeed this happens one more time this season, then Bowen should be given another warning (as well as the foul) and be told that next time a Flagrant 2 will be called (automatic ejection). If it happens again then in addition to the Flagrant 2, Bowen should be warned that a third time will bring an extended suspension. I am not sure if this is what Jackson has in mind, but escalating penalties seems like a rational approach. It gives a player like Bowen the opportunity to make an adjustment and also puts significant pressure on him to change his ways. I realize that the problem with this is that it potentially would allow Bowen to hurt three more players before he actually gets suspended. That's a big downside, but I also think that in doing this there would be little doubt as to Bowen's intention (if he actually ends up getting suspended) and an extended suspension is more easily justified.

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 10:41 PM
Anyone have photos or video of finley getting sucker-punched by bowen?

It probably doesn't matter. If there is one thing kiki has proved, it's that he doesn't let visual evidence get in the way of his arguments.

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 10:46 PM
Anyone have photos or video of finley getting sucker-punched by bowen?

Anyone have photos or video of Finely getting sucker punched by ....Jason Terry?

dude1394
11-15-2006, 10:48 PM
Anyone have photos or video of Finely getting sucker punched by ....Jason Terry?

Sure...I've seen that one a lot. Do you really want it I can get it for you?

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 10:48 PM
Is anyone defending what Jason Terry did on this thread? That was pretty sorry too in my opinion. But at least it wasn't an action that threatened to sideline Finley for a good 2 weeks. Given the choice between the tap to the groin that Finley got from Terry and the ankle sprain, and I'll take the shot to the nuts any time.

dude1394
11-15-2006, 10:50 PM
Is anyone defending what Jason Terry did on this thread? That was pretty sorry too in my opinion. But at least it wasn't an action that threatened to sideline Finley for a good 2 weeks. Given the choice between the tap to the groin that Finley got from Terry and the ankle sprain, and I'll take the shot to the nuts any time.

I take issue with the 2 weeks. Jimmy Jackson was NEVER the same after an ankle sprain. This is MORE dangeour than hard fouls in a lot of respects.

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 10:54 PM
Well I am kind of playing it conservative because it could end up being a minor tweak lasting for only a day or two. But even as a guy who has suffered an ankle sprain that kept me off the court for two weeks (and wasn't the same for another 2 to 4 weeks), I'll take the shot to the groin that Finley received every time instead of a sprain like that. And that doesn't even come close to the hell that Jim Jackson or Grant Hill went through with their ankles.

V2M
11-15-2006, 10:56 PM
Hard to believe Bowen's got any non-Spur defenders in the league?! He's the most blatantly & maliciously dirty player I've seen since Karl Malone!

Five-ofan
11-15-2006, 11:02 PM
Anyone have photos or video of finley getting sucker-punched by bowen?
The music is garbage and it misses most of it, im warning you if you open this at work or with family around mute it, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZOPNYH7QhE&mode=related&search=

1:34 in, doesnt get much of the original punch just shows fin go down and then retaliate but best i could do.

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 11:04 PM
I'd really love to see Bowen try to pull that crap on Artest sometime. Unfortunately, Bowen is smarter than that.

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 11:04 PM
But I digress, we could play this game of debunking the credentials all day, the whole point, is that I can see the video with my own two eyes. And when I look at it, it looks pretty darn dirty. And there seem to be a lot of fans (not just Mavs fans mind you) who think the same.

Fair enough. This seems like a reasonable summary. I see the video with my eyes, and I think it looks like the kind of defense that few people like to put out the effort to play, and even fewer people like to have played against them.

And not to extend the bunk-debunk thing further than necessary, but I think there's a sort of tribal knee-jerk among the majority of fans that makes them react negatively to an opponent who makes their favorite players look bad.

The ugly truth is that for years Bowen was in Finley's head to the point that Finley was not consistently effective agains the Spurs. Currently, Bowen appears to be the ONLY thing rattling around in JHo's head sometimes. Hardest truth at all for a lot of fans on this site (myself included), was that until last year Bowen was able to get to Dirk at times and keep him from being the difference--he even made the huge (clean) play against Dirk last year to save the game. Fans just don't like to see the hometown boys look bad.

To Dirk's credit, and the thing that sets him apart from a Carter or an Allen (or a Finley for that matter) Dirk upped his game last year, competed hard against Bowen, even ultimately got the better of him, and the Mavericks won. It leven looks like the Spurs may be looking to go with a different defensive approach against Dirk this year because of it.

Instead of sh*tting all over Bowen, people should tip their hat to him (or at least grudgingly acknowledge) that he competes hard enough to bring the best out in the best, and to expose the pretenders.

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 11:06 PM
Hard to believe Bowen's got any non-Spur defenders in the league?! He's the most blatantly & maliciously dirty player I've seen since Karl Malone!

Oh man....Karl Malone and Bowen in the front court...

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 11:10 PM
One thing I wanna know is why Bowen has so little control of his legs while in air Kiki? You know he loses control of his front leg and it accidentally ends up under Francis' foot. He loses control of the front leg and his foot ends up in Wally's face (or whoever that poor Sonic guy is). Is that part of the effort thing? Why can't he seem to control that darn leg? I still can't understand how a guy making maximal effort to defend a shot can end up with his legs that far apart.

There have been a lot of guys that have made my favorite players look bad, but I don't carry the same crusade against them that I do against Bowen. I guess you aren't going to figure out why that is though.

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 11:10 PM
Anyone who would care what lenny wilkins thinks? Their resumes are remarkably similar except that big Don still has a job while Lenny doesnt. Dont let that get in the way of you being a jack___ though.
Remarkably parallel, except for the ring and the championship appearances, that is.

Actually, Big Don took a shot at Avery and the Mavericks after the last GS game, saying that Jet's hard foul was dirty, and that he never taught that when he was in Dallas (no shit!), and that he hated to see them doing it now.

Surprised that hasn't been more discussed.

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 11:13 PM
Remarkably parallel, except for the ring and the championship appearances, that is.

Actually, Big Don took a shot at Avery and the Mavericks after the last GS game, saying that Jet's hard foul was dirty, and that he never taught that when he was in Dallas (no shit!), and that he hated to see them doing it now.

Surprised that hasn't been more discussed.

Well, that is an interesting point considering who Avery is a disciple of is the exact same person that Bowen is a disciple of.

Five-ofan
11-15-2006, 11:14 PM
Ive watched nba fight videos for the last 20 minutes or so, what i have gotten out of it is how laughably bad at fighting the nba is as a whole. For a bunch of 6-6+ athletic guys you would think they could fight but you would be vastly mistaken..

Also, vince carter is aggressive as hell in involving fights.... the pacers were involved in a bunch over the last few years, AC should let everyone know the SOP for fights since hes been in about 30 over the last few years...

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 11:15 PM
Sure...I've seen that one a lot. Do you really want it I can get it for you?

Thanks, Dude, I have it already.

Jet has had a couple of plays that look dirtier than most of Bowen's plays, and less legitimately part of the game than most of Bowen's worst plays.

People somehow seem more forgiving of JET because he can also chuck up 40 points on a given night. (Also perhaps because he's one of the hometown boys.)

MavKikiNYC
11-15-2006, 11:16 PM
Well, that is an interesting point considering who Avery is a disciple of is the exact same person that Bowen is a disciple of.
Didn't people used to say Pop was a disciple of Nellie? Why didn't Nellie take similar shots at Pop when Bowen was punking Finley?

dude1394
11-15-2006, 11:16 PM
The music is garbage and it misses most of it, im warning you if you open this at work or with family around mute it, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZOPNYH7QhE&mode=related&search=

1:34 in, doesnt get much of the original punch just shows fin go down and then retaliate but best i could do.

Thanks dano.. Bowen probably didn't mean to do that either, since he just went back down the court.

Man Peeler was NOT taking any crap from Garnet. That was a serious shiver thrown.

FINtastic
11-15-2006, 11:21 PM
Didn't people use to say Pop was a disciple of Nellie? Why didn't Nellie take similar shots at Pop when Bowen was punking Finley?

The point was more that Avery's style of coaching came from somewhere...you know the exact same guy who is giving the X's and O's to ol' Bruce. So if Avery is bringing this dirty style to Dallas, it's because he learned it from Pop who would conceivably still teach it. And I don't remember if Nellie took any shots at Pop, but I do know that he took a good shot at Bruce at that point. But Nellie's shot at Avery may have more to do with the fact of how his relationship ended with the Dallas Mavericks than anything else. His relationship with Pop wasn't quite as sour at the time.

Five-ofan
11-15-2006, 11:21 PM
Thanks, Dude, I have it already.

Jet has had a couple of plays that look dirtier than most of Bowen's plays, and less legitimately part of the game than most of Bowen's worst plays.

People somehow seem more forgiving of JET because he can also chuck up 40 points on a given night. (Also perhaps because he's one of the hometown boys.)
Theres no question what jet did on that play was dirty. Its undefendable. However he has alot less incidents of being dirty than bowen does. Also on the fights stuff, the guy who i lost the most respect for when i was looking for that video was marcus camby. I know ferry was dirty and he probably did something to deserve getting punched BUT you just dont punch someone from behind when they arent looking. Thats crap...

Also, half of this crap cant even be called punches, its amazing that these guys cant throw a freakin punch. Also big shawn was involved in ALOT of fights during his tenure. I felt bad for him getting body slammed, then i saw shaq get body slammed and it didnt bother me so much. .. Say what you want about barkley but he dang sure didnt back down from anyone...

spreedom
11-15-2006, 11:24 PM
Thanks dano.. Bowen probably didn't mean to do that either, since he just went back down the court.

Man Peeler was NOT taking any crap from Garnet. That was a serious shiver thrown.


I remember that Garnett/Peeler debacle.. Adelman subbed Peeler in the game, and within a span of less than 30 seconds he took two very blatant shots at Garnett (assumedly to pick a fight and get Garnett ejected, whereas Peeler is a turd)... I never really respected Adelman quite as much after that move...

Dirkadirkastan
11-15-2006, 11:24 PM
Thanks, Dude, I have it already.

Jet has had a couple of plays that look dirtier than most of Bowen's plays, and less legitimately part of the game than most of Bowen's worst plays.

People somehow seem more forgiving of JET because he can also chuck up 40 points on a given night. (Also perhaps because he's one of the hometown boys.)

No, people hate Bowen more because he always gives that disgusting pansy-ass "what did I do?" look on his face afterwards.

nashtymavsfan13
11-15-2006, 11:36 PM
The music is garbage and it misses most of it, im warning you if you open this at work or with family around mute it, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZOPNYH7QhE&mode=related&search=

1:34 in, doesnt get much of the original punch just shows fin go down and then retaliate but best i could do.

Man, what the heck happened to Kidd in that clip right before the Finley one where his head/face is bleeding all over the place?

dude1394
11-15-2006, 11:49 PM
Thanks, Dude, I have it already.

Jet has had a couple of plays that look dirtier than most of Bowen's plays, and less legitimately part of the game than most of Bowen's worst plays.

People somehow seem more forgiving of JET because he can also chuck up 40 points on a given night. (Also perhaps because he's one of the hometown boys.)

I disagree kiki...I'm not sure what else is worse than threatening a guys career. Jason surely wasn't threatening Mike's career when he smacked him in the balls.

nashtymavsfan13
11-16-2006, 12:59 AM
I disagree kiki...I'm not sure what else is worse than threatening a guys career. Jason surely wasn't threatening Mike's career when he smacked him in the balls.

It also wasn't a very hard hit and he got mostly jersey/stomach and was doing it because Finley was on top of him. Yes, it's inexcusable, but sliding your foot under a jumpshooter is much more dangerous, dirty, and just flat out despicable. It risks them being out for the game, 2 weeks, or maybe even career long damage.

Nash13
11-16-2006, 03:27 AM
That's perhaps the greatest spin i've read on this board. Jason Terry's dirty but Bruce Bowen isn't.

EricaLubarsky
11-16-2006, 04:46 AM
I disagree kiki...I'm not sure what else is worse than threatening a guys career. Jason surely wasn't threatening Mike's career when he smacked him in the balls.
Finley has been playing for years without them anyway.

buh-zing

(sorry finley-- I love you, man)

great video BTW, i just wish it showed that BS that Bowen pulled when he whacked Finley. I was livid when I saw Bowen pull that crap in the game.

and was that Rambis who tried to retaliate and slipped? Nothing more hilarious than that-- a white guy with goggles and short shorts trying to fight and slipping

EricaLubarsky
11-16-2006, 04:54 AM
Jet has had a couple of plays that look dirtier than most of Bowen's plays, and less legitimately part of the game than most of Bowen's worst plays.

People somehow seem more forgiving of JET because he can also chuck up 40 points on a given night. (Also perhaps because he's one of the hometown boys.)

Ok Ill bite on your little attempt at stirring up trouble.

jumpkicking Wally? kicking Ray Allen in the lower back after a play like the worm kicked the cameraman? How are those legitimately part of the game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLgHeeOZJFI
BTW, if you wanna get riled, Bowen kicks Allen in the back and gets a single technical foul, not a flagrant. Terry misses an important playoff game.

Big Shot Rob
11-16-2006, 12:11 PM
All this hate on Bowen disregards one simple fact--whether you guys will admit it or not:

If Bowen was a free agent--Cuban would do anything in his power to sign him--and the Mav fans that are nailing him to a cross would become his biggest supporters.

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving.

Flacolaco
11-16-2006, 12:13 PM
I can't speak for everyone else but I most certainly would not want him here.

I'd like to think the Mavs can win some day without an intent to injure on a regular basis.

EricaLubarsky
11-16-2006, 12:19 PM
People wanted Oakley until he retired, but it doesnt mean he wasnt a cold-hearted and dirty thug.

Besides Bowen is getting old and washed up just like the entire Spurs team with the exception of Elson and Parker

V2M
11-16-2006, 01:13 PM
All this hate on Bowen disregards one simple fact--whether you guys will admit it or not:

If Bowen was a free agent--Cuban would do anything in his power to sign him--and the Mav fans that are nailing him to a cross would become his biggest supporters.

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving.

Firstly, I'd never take Bowen to play him over Josh... if he were to become a FA, the only reason I might want him on my team is so he wouldn't be on an opposing team trying to hurt Dirk or Josh!

Secondly, if I'm not wrong, you hate Shaq... and don't you think Pop would want him on his team if he had a chance!

Finally, I hate Wade, Kobe, KG and a couple other superstars... and I'll take 'em on my team any day they become free agents.

Combine the three, and you'll see how twisted your logic is to say that we can't hate Bowen for being a dirty player just 'cuz we may pick him up if he becomes a FA.

George Gervin
11-16-2006, 01:22 PM
SI.com

The Dirt on Bowen
Does Spurs stopper cross the line with feisty defense?

Posted: Thursday November 16, 2006 11:15AM; Updated: Thursday November 16, 2006 1:21PM

Last Saturday's on-court confrontation between Knicks coach Isiah Thomas and Spurs forward Bruce Bowen renewed an old question about a three-time member of the NBA All-Defensive first team:

Is Bowen a dirty player?

To be specific, is Bowen's habit of sticking his wingtips under his man when he's attempting a jumper intentional? Or is it merely the byproduct of a hard-nosed defender giving his all to contest a shot?

A sampling of former players turned NBA executives produced generally favorable views of Bowen's play. Yet while acknowledging that Bowen might come close to crossing the line, no one was willing to completely condemn "Eddie Scissorhands" (as Phil Jackson once dubbed Bowen) for his questionable tactics.

"He's a very tough, hard-nosed defender who crowds you and tries to get under your skin," said an Eastern Conference general manager who spoke on condition of anonymity. "He's basically a pest.

"[But] I don't think he's sticking his foot out intentionally. He's a defensive player. He does what he can to bother you and throw you off your game. But knowing him and knowing his character, I don't think he'd go out there and intentionally try to hurt somebody."

Said another East executive: "I see it as just a guy playing hard defense. Does he grab, hold and play physically? Yeah. But is he perceived around the league as a guy who goes out to hurt people? I don't think so."

Bowen's defensive tactics came to light again after Knicks guard Steve Francis landed on the defensive ace's foot while attempting a jump shot in a game at Madison Square Garden on Nov. 6. Francis sprained his ankle and missed three games.

Bowen has been accused before, most notably by Vince Carter and Ray Allen, of sticking his foot underneath shooters, and his reputation apparently wasn't lost on Thomas. When asked the day after the game what he would have done as a player had an opponent stuck his foot underneath his when attempting a shot, the Knicks' coach/GM said: "I'd beat the --- out of somebody. Really, I would --- murder them. ... There's certain things you don't do."

So perhaps it wasn't surprising that five nights later, in the team's rematch at San Antonio, Thomas went ballistic when he thought he saw Bowen stick his Nikes under Knicks guard Jamal Crawford on a jumper. An irate Thomas immediately pointed at Bowen on the court. The two exchanged words, with Bowen later accusing Thomas of having threatened to "break his neck." (Thomas denies having said that, though he acknowledges he told his players, "Next time he does that, break his ------- foot.")

Thomas also exchanged angry words with Spurs coach Gregg Popovich, though after the game the two met at midcourt and shook hands.

Bowen, who would rather drink Clorox than talk about the subject, downplayed the incident. Still, temperatures in the AT&T Center were raised high enough that even Tim Duncan felt compelled to criticize Thomas for having created a scene.

"It's a bad situation when a coach puts himself in that position and goes after a player," Duncan said. "It's very uncalled for. I don't know what his intentions were with that and we have bigger plans than trying to hurt somebody. I would hope that people would understand and respect that and obviously they don't."

While the incident itself has blown over (the NBA reviewed the play and determined no penalties were in order), the larger issue about Bowen -- and what constitutes good defense as opposed to dirty play -- remains.

There is no doubt that a player sticking his foot under another player is a good way to throw off a shooter -- and potentially wreck a career. As one Western Conference executive who played in the NBA said: "If you think you're going to land on a [defender's] foot, you're not going to be able to shoot the ball in rhythm. It takes you right out of your follow-through. ... But it's a dangerous play. You can easily get hurt."

Yet the executive refused to say Bowen was doing it intentionally. "I really couldn't say," he said. "I don't know him. I don't know if he was taught or coached or drilled [on how to defend]. But there's no evidence he's doing it intentionally so you have to give him the benefit of the doubt."

Those who do know Bowen say there is no way he would ever try to hurt an opponent. They point to his incredible rags-to-riches tale of a disadvantaged kid who went undrafted out of Cal State Fullerton making it as a key contributor for an NBA champion. They cite his sparkling reputation off the court, his long list of charitable deeds in the community. They also say the Spurs' organization would not tolerate it.

"If anything Bruce is too nice," said a close friend and former NBA teammate of Bowen's who also wished to remain anonymous. "If he were an a------, nobody would say anything about him. They'd be afraid he'd punch them in the face. ... But Bruce isn't like that, so Vince Carter and Ray Allen and Rip Hamilton feel they can say what they want about him.

"But, trust me, I've known Bruce for a long time. There's not a dirty bone in his body."

In some ways Bowen might be a victim of his own success. As one GM pointed out, there are other players who push the envelope defensively -- such as Eric Snow, Raja Bell and Ruben Patterson -- but don't get the same scrutiny. The GM also noted that Bowen defends the other team's top scorer every night, making it more likely he'll be involved in confrontations with high-profile players like Carter or Allen.

The GM went on to raise an interesting statistical argument: Let's say Bowen defends the other team's top scorer each night, and that the scorer attempts 20 shots per game. If Bowen actively contests half those shots, he's looking at 820 times per season (10 shots x 82 games) where he's flying out at his man trying to get a hand in his face. Over the span of five years, that's 4,100 plays.

"How many times has he been accused of [sticking his foot underneath] over that time span? Four or five? Out of [4,000] plays?," the GM notes. "When you look at it like that, it doesn't seem like it's intentional."

Perhaps the best argument in Bowen's defense, however, is that the NBA has never seen fit to punish him. The league has cracked down hard in recent years on fighting and flagrant fouls in a clear effort to eliminate the old justice system in which players took matters into their own hands on the court. Yet so far discipline czar Stu Jackson has seen nothing to warrant any penalty -- though he did phone Bowen on Sunday to warn him to watch his feet in the future.

EricaLubarsky
11-16-2006, 01:58 PM
Perhaps the best argument in Bowen's defense, however, is that the NBA has never seen fit to punish him.
Perhaps the best argument for OJ Simpson's innocense is the fact that the US judicial system never found him guilty of murder, even though they are cracking down on that sort of thing.

Flacolaco
11-16-2006, 02:11 PM
Perhaps the best argument for OJ Simpson's innocense is the fact that the US judicial system never found him guilty of murder, even though they are cracking down on that sort of thing.


Swish!!

nice

Nash13
11-16-2006, 02:17 PM
All this hate on Bowen disregards one simple fact--whether you guys will admit it or not:

If Bowen was a free agent--Cuban would do anything in his power to sign him--and the Mav fans that are nailing him to a cross would become his biggest supporters.

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving.


I wouldn't exactly try to pass that off as a fact. Cuban hates bowen. And we don't need someone on our team who's just going to stand in a corner for 24seconds every offensive play. And plus we're loaded at the 2/3 position.

DwD
11-16-2006, 02:23 PM
It is really interesting that almost all of Bowen's defenders in the article posted above are anonymous - how do we know they really exist? Why are they afraid of giving names?

Flacolaco
11-16-2006, 02:26 PM
It is really interesting that almost all of Bowen's defenders in the article posted above are anonymous - how do we know they really exist? Why are they afraid of giving names?

They're afraid he'll find them, force them to jump and then step underneath of them....

George Gervin
11-16-2006, 02:33 PM
Or maybe no matter how hard you try you will never prove Bowen's a dirty player... Not one punishment from the league from dirty play.... has he has been fined like many other players (Terry, Josh Howard)..but nothing resulting from a dirty play..... poor poor mav fans..

EricaLubarsky
11-16-2006, 02:42 PM
Poor poor deluded Spurs troll, posting on a Mavs forum and trying to sell bullshit as fact as his team gets older and farther from a championship.

George Gervin
11-16-2006, 02:45 PM
Poor poor deluded Spurs troll, posting on a Mavs forum and trying to sell bullshit as fact as his team gets older and farther from a championship.


Erika,, I hope you guys win a championship one day... we can only hope!

dude1394
11-16-2006, 02:48 PM
Or maybe no matter how hard you try you will never prove Bowen's a dirty player... Not one punishment from the league from dirty play.... has he has been fined like many other players (Terry, Josh Howard)..but nothing resulting from a dirty play..... poor poor mav fans..
That's why the NBA has alerted bowen that if he continues to stick his foot under other players he will be subject to X punishement.

I don't care whether he's doing it on purpose or not, he's doing it and he's KNOWN he was doing it for years, but hasn't done anything about it until he's now being called out by the league. Sounds dirty to me, until caught.

bcrav4
11-16-2006, 02:48 PM
Ive watched nba fight videos for the last 20 minutes or so, what i have gotten out of it is how laughably bad at fighting the nba is as a whole. For a bunch of 6-6+ athletic guys you would think they could fight but you would be vastly mistaken..

Also, vince carter is aggressive as hell in involving fights.... the pacers were involved in a bunch over the last few years, AC should let everyone know the SOP for fights since hes been in about 30 over the last few years...


That is pretty easy to explain: How many people would actually want to fight these guys? I mean they are the biggest, strongest, and most athletic guys in the world. So essentially, these players never get many opportunities to practice fighting other than on the basketball court.

EricaLubarsky
11-16-2006, 02:48 PM
Erika,, I hope you guys win a championship one day... we can only hope!
and we've all been hoping you'd take your trolling elsewhere.

I'd bet 500 dollars that the Mavs get a championship before that happens.

Nash13
11-16-2006, 02:50 PM
yeah erica, what's the matter with you? The spurs won their rings two years ago. It doesn't matter how many times the Mavs will beat them in the 2nd round or WCF, until they win a championship, it won't matter. Way to tell her George.

Flacolaco
11-16-2006, 02:52 PM
Dont the Spurs have a message board?

I've never felt the need to go to another teams board. Im happy right here.

strange....

ballin_boi
11-16-2006, 02:55 PM
Retarded players for a retarded Team.

In a retarded "city" by a retarded river.

George Gervin
11-16-2006, 02:58 PM
and we've all been hoping you'd take your trolling elsewhere.

I'd bet 500 dollars that the Mavs get a championship before that happens.


I don't take money from girls.. well I would make the exeption for dr bio and capcity...

George Gervin
11-16-2006, 03:00 PM
That's why the NBA has alerted bowen that if he continues to stick his foot under other players he will be subject to X punishement.

I don't care whether he's doing it on purpose or not, he's doing it and he's KNOWN he was doing it for years, but hasn't done anything about it until he's now being called out by the league. Sounds dirty to me, until caught.


what like .12% of the time? that's regularly doing it?

dude1394
11-16-2006, 03:13 PM
what like .12% of the time? that's regularly doing it?

Beats me. Which other player has the NBA targeted to watch for dirty play?

Five-ofan
11-16-2006, 04:42 PM
That is pretty easy to explain: How many people would actually want to fight these guys? I mean they are the biggest, strongest, and most athletic guys in the world. So essentially, these players never get many opportunities to practice fighting other than on the basketball court.
thats an extremely valid point. It was one thing one of my friends pointed out to me about the pacers-pistons brawl, ANY other sport, any guy gets into a fight with the players and the guys that got into it with the players are getting seriously hurt. In that fight, none of the players hurt anyone. Even the HAYMAKER that JO landed with full body weight and everything else behind it right on a guys chin, the guy got up instantly. Thats just od to me.


Also, nba players are nowhere close to the strongest guys in the world. Are they stronger than the average guy walking down the street? yes. Stronger than the average guy who works out regularly? not really. I know this is gonna sound conceited and uncle ricoish but i dont mean it that way im just trying to prove a point but I would almost guarantee you Im stronger than 80+% of nba players.

mmmfast
11-16-2006, 06:51 PM
How much you wanna bet I can throw Bowen over that mountain?

Five-ofan
11-16-2006, 06:54 PM
How much you wanna bet I can throw Bowen over that mountain?
haha, i doubt i could throw him very far but ill bet you im stronger than he is...

EricaLubarsky
11-16-2006, 07:52 PM
BTW the article is by Marty Burns- I had to look it up since Gervin plagiarized it. Burns isnt a bad writer and the article is well written, just devoid of any good points. As far as bias is concerned-- he's a little pro-spurs and has been for a half decade.

Burns said that the Spurs were big winners in free agency because they pickedup Rasho for 10 million to replace Robinson. He's also one of the majority of national writers that proclaim the Spurs winners every year.

Big Shot Rob
11-16-2006, 09:07 PM
Firstly, I'd never take Bowen to play him over Josh... if he were to become a FA, the only reason I might want him on my team is so he wouldn't be on an opposing team trying to hurt Dirk or Josh!

Secondly, if I'm not wrong, you hate Shaq... and don't you think Pop would want him on his team if he had a chance!

Finally, I hate Wade, Kobe, KG and a couple other superstars... and I'll take 'em on my team any day they become free agents.

Combine the three, and you'll see how twisted your logic is to say that we can't hate Bowen for being a dirty player just 'cuz we may pick him up if he becomes a FA.


No--your last sentence is the twisted logic.

Whether any of you admit it or not--Cuban would give his right nut to have Bowen on the Mav team--and so would the people engaged in this petty back and forth "debate."

Being crticial of someone that you would seek to become a member of your team if that possibility were to exist is hypocritical.

Five-ofan
11-16-2006, 09:10 PM
No--your last sentence is the twisted logic.

Whether any of you admit it or not--Cuban would give his right nut to have Bowen on the Mav team--and so would the people engaged in this petty back and forth "debate."

Being crticial of someone that you would seek to become a member of your team if that possibility were to exist is hypocritical.
no its not, i hate wade but if he were a fa id be all over him too.

Big Shot Rob
11-16-2006, 09:49 PM
The fact that you "hate" a player is different from alleging that a player is dirty, is out to hurt other players, etc.

You know--this thread is really just about ready to close. You hate Bowen. I think you'd go crazy with happiness if you acquired him. Just an opinion--no way to prove it--that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

V2M
11-16-2006, 10:40 PM
Sorry BSR... but you're wrong! I don't want Bowen on our team and I don't care whether you buy that or not! Josh is far superior player and a perfect complement to Dirk's game. In fact, TD himself is on record wanting Josh on his team.

Bowen needs to just retire and do the league a favor!

Five-ofan
11-16-2006, 10:50 PM
The fact that you "hate" a player is different from alleging that a player is dirty, is out to hurt other players, etc.

You know--this thread is really just about ready to close. You hate Bowen. I think you'd go crazy with happiness if you acquired him. Just an opinion--no way to prove it--that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
i wouldnt "go crazy with happiness" because all the crap he does now would be called fouls if he got away from the protective blanket that is the spurs uniform...

V2M
11-16-2006, 10:53 PM
i wouldnt "go crazy with happiness" because all the crap he does now would be called fouls if he got away from the protective blanket that is the spurs uniform...

good point

Nash13
11-17-2006, 12:02 AM
No--your last sentence is the twisted logic.

Whether any of you admit it or not--Cuban would give his right nut to have Bowen on the Mav team--and so would the people engaged in this petty back and forth "debate."

Being crticial of someone that you would seek to become a member of your team if that possibility were to exist is hypocritical.


Dude, Bowen really isn't all that. Truth be told, Bowen would pure suck on Dallas. A doug christie in the making. Dallas is an iso team. Bowen has to depend on players like Parker, Ginobli, Duncan to create open shots for him.

capitalcity
11-17-2006, 10:27 AM
The spurs won their rings two years ago.
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/basketball/nba/11/03/cavs.spurs.ap/p1.james.getty.jpg

Don't rub it in. We all know 2 years is an enternity for the elderly.

Dirkenstien
11-17-2006, 03:45 PM
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/basketball/nba/11/03/cavs.spurs.ap/p1.james.getty.jpg

Don't rub it in. We all know 2 years is an enternity for the elderly.

That has to be the dunk of the year!

Big Shot Rob
11-18-2006, 10:07 AM
They're afraid he'll find them, force them to jump and then step underneath of them....

Okay, okay--I'll give my real name.

Michael Jordan

Big Shot Rob
11-18-2006, 10:07 AM
That has to be the dunk of the year!


As much as I hate to admit it--it probably is.:eek:

EricaLubarsky
11-18-2006, 07:21 PM
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA111806.05C.BKNspurs.notebook.38e2352.html
Web Posted: 11/18/2006 01:05 AM CST

Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich criticized the NBA on Friday for warning Bruce Bowen about his defensive "tactics" and complained league officials are "trying to change the way my best defender plays."

NBA executive vice president of basketball operations Stu Jackson, who handles disciplinary matters for the league, called Bowen at home on Sunday night and told him he needed to watch his feet and give shooters room to land. If not, Jackson said, Bowen faced a possible fine or suspension.

Popovich said the league never informed Spurs officials of the conversation and he learned of it only after reading Wednesday's Express-News.

"They didn't bother to call the owner, the (general manager) or the coach," Popovich said. "No one. They're trying to change the way Bruce plays and we don't even know about it?

"Secondly, what they're telling him is highly inaccurate. It's unfounded and fueled by media pressure and player complaints."

New York guard Steve Francis sprained his left ankle after landing on Bowen's foot in a Nov. 6 game. When the teams met again four days later, Knicks coach Isiah Thomas threatened to break Bowen's foot after Jamal Crawford almost came down on him on a drive to the basket.

That incident led to a heated exchange between Popovich and Thomas, who was not reprimanded by the league for his actions.

League officials have been instructed to call a foul whenever a defender doesn't give a shooter enough room to land. Vince Carter sprained his ankle in the 2003-04 season after coming down on Bowen. Carter also accused him of purposefully stepping under him in another incident the next season.

Popovich said Bowen is being singled out, citing incidents where New Jersey's Richard Jefferson and Dallas' Josh Howard sprained ankles after landing on Miami's Shaquille O'Neal and Golden State's Mickael Pietrus.

"Did (the league) call them?" Popovich said. "Did they call all those guys (Dirk) Nowitzki landed on when he sprained his ankles the past three, four years? The answer is no.

"So why did they call Bruce? Because it's happened to him twice? Bruce guards an All-Star every night. If he was doing what they're accusing him of doing, wouldn't it have happened a higher percentage of times?

"The people who cry about it are just frustrated about having to go against Bruce."

Popovich is concerned Jackson's warning has taken away some of Bowen's aggressiveness. Houston's Tracy McGrady scored 21 first-half points most of which came against Bowen on Tuesday. After looking at film of Wednesday's loss to Charlotte, Popovich said Bowen sometimes wasn't within "5 feet" of rookie Adam Morrison.

"The league is just trying to cover its ass," Popovich said. "I told Bruce, 'You be Bruce Bowen. You're the best (expletive) defender in this league. You will NOT change the way you play defense.'

"Stu Jackson is not going to change my team just because he thinks he's doing the right thing."

Jackson declined comment except to say he discussed the issue with Spurs general manager R.C. Buford on Friday.

"We registered our disappointment and disagreement with the way it was handled," Popovich said.

Bowen said he took issue with Jackson saying he needed to change his "tactics."

"Tactics means I have a certain way I'm going about doing things and it's purpose-driven," Bowen said.

Bowen also plans to heed his coach's advice even it puts him at risk of being fined.

"I've been given a command," he said, smiling. "So I'm going to keep playing hard."

jludden@express-news.net

fluid.forty.one
11-18-2006, 07:30 PM
If he doesn't do it on purpose, how does the league's request for him to stop change the way he defends?

capitalcity
11-18-2006, 07:42 PM
cheap ass.

Bexar county can suck it.

dude1394
11-18-2006, 11:45 PM
Yea they are trying to keep your best defender from putting people out of the league by having them come down on his feet and severely twist their ankles.

Hope they look at others who do this and find the crap out of them. There is NO way Josh should have come down on that guys foot, except that the defender put his feet where josh was coming down.

Big Shot Rob
11-19-2006, 06:33 PM
Dont the Spurs have a message board?

I've never felt the need to go to another teams board. Im happy right here.

strange....

I really like this message board. I found it after the Mavs beat the Spurs in the playoffs last year and I sought out this board to congratulate the Mav fans and to wish you well in the finals.

Since then, I have really grown to like this website--I think its the best I've seen. The people here post alot of analysis--alot more than the usual "you suck" stuff in alot of fan forums. I have to admit--I have a hard time understanding some of it sometime--but I always felt like I learn something hanging around.

MavKikiNYC
11-19-2006, 06:37 PM
I really like this message board. I found it after the Mavs beat the Spurs in the playoffs last year and I sought out this board to congratulate the Mav fans and to wish you well in the finals.

Since then, I have really grown to like this website--I think its the best I've seen. The people here post alot of analysis--alot more than the usual "you suck" stuff in alot of fan forums. I have to admit--I have a hard time understanding some of it sometime--but I always felt like I learn something hanging around.

You suck.

Big Shot Rob
11-19-2006, 07:15 PM
LOL

Guess I left myself wide open for that one.

All I can say is...

NO YOU SUCK!

dude1394
11-19-2006, 08:06 PM
Pretty fun you two...Rep to both..

chumdawg
11-19-2006, 08:27 PM
LOL

Guess I left myself wide open for that one.

All I can say is...

NO YOU SUCK!Don't pay much attention to Mavs Kiki. She doesn't offer anything of substance outside of the political forum.

Dirkadirkastan
11-19-2006, 09:03 PM
Don't pay much attention to Mavs Kiki. She doesn't offer anything of substance outside of the political forum.

Kiki pissed me off IN the political forum.

FINtastic
11-19-2006, 10:58 PM
Mav Kiki is a she? Or are we pulling a Bill Parcells circa 1996 here?

Usually Lurkin
11-20-2006, 07:10 AM
No--your last sentence is the twisted logic.

Whether any of you admit it or not--Cuban would give his right nut to have Bowen on the Mav team--and so would the people engaged in this petty back and forth "debate."

Being crticial of someone that you would seek to become a member of your team if that possibility were to exist is hypocritical.
BigShot, if Bowen was on the mavs, sticking his foot under your favorite players, you'd be hating on him just as much as everyone else is hating on him now. The first time Parker came up lame and had to miss a few weeks because of Bowen's "tight" defense, you'd be calling for some kind of league review. The first time Ginobli caught a foot in the face, you'd be screaming "dirty play!" and calling for a suspension.

MavKikiNYC
11-20-2006, 07:31 AM
Mav Kiki is a she? Or are we pulling a Bill Parcells circa 1996 here?
Fin, I can only surmise that someone is projecting his/her own pre-operative gender identity issues onto other posters.

Either that or (s)he's just engaging in the widely observed practice within the gay community of using feminine pronouns to refer to superlative examples of masculinity whom (s)he admires and/or wishes (impossibly) to emulate.

Ain't that right, gurrrlfrend? <snap, snap, snap>

Thespiralgoeson
11-20-2006, 08:18 AM
Kiki, I can understand where you're coming from, but I'm still utterly convinced that Bowen is a dirty player. I just don't buy at all that other players are just "frustrated" by his defense because he's just that damn good, or that he's "in their heads." There are other great defenders in this league, not a lot, but a few. Yet, this kind of shit only seems to happen with Bruce Bowen, nobody else. Not even a guy like Ron Artest. Seriously, Ben Wallace is a 4-time defensive player of the year, yet I can't remember any player calling him out like Bowen has been, let alone the countless ones that say so of Bowen. You know, guys like Doug Christie and Rick Fox were great perimeter defenders too. I don't ever recall hearing other players accusing them of the things Bowen is accused of. If one player calls him dirty, okay, maybe he's just a prima donna jumpshooter as you say. But many, many, many players and coaches have called this guy out. Isiah may be punk, but no moreso than Bruce Bowen. Hell, Zeke may have ruined the Knicks for years, but at least he isn't physically endangering people on the court. You could jeapordize someone's career sticking your feet under them like that.

MavKikiNYC
12-17-2006, 06:46 PM
I tend to agree. The true instigator here is Thomas. For all Stern's efforts to clean up the league and to avoid another brawl, Thomas mouths off to try to motivate the hand-picked players who were quitting on him. The next time Thomas pops off to a player, they should crack his dam*ed jaw.

Stern totally dropped the ball here; he could've easily edged Thomas toward the door, and the NYKs toward respectability a little sooner by issuing Thomas a 5-10 game suspension. All Dolan needs is one more reason, one more degree of PR cover, and the NYKs and the NBA could be rid of the blight that is Zeke forever.



Kiki, are you seriously advocating that Stern get involved in franchise politics, and that he should do something to help remove Isaiah from the Knicks?

Stern gets a reprieve.

Rare to get a second opportunity, David, so strap up your testicle, and pull the trigger. You have an opportunity here to force the brain-dead owner of the NYKs into moving toward replacing Thomas.

Growing sentiment on NYK-blogs that this pulls Thomas under, and that he is deserving of dismissal.

20 game suspension for Thomas, and require Dolan to hire a real GM to start cleaning up this mess.

Big Shot Rob
12-17-2006, 07:29 PM
I have to admit the truth.

Truth is...

If Bowen played for another team--I would be bitching about him as much as anyone else.

Even as a Spurs fan--I am troubled by the fact that an inordinate amount of players are getting hurt by Bowen.

The debate tends to get focused on whether Bowen is intentionally trying to hurt opposing players--i.e., is he a dirty player.

I don't think that's the correct question.

Whether he intends to hurt players or not--the fact remains that players are getting hurt by his tactics. That fact alone--regardless of his intent--troubles me and after much reflection, can no longer defend Bowen's tactics. I admit--something is just not right. Whether he is an intentionally dirty player, or is reckless--however you want to label his tactics--the fact that it seems like alot of people are getting hurt by him should make everyone pause and be concerned--and that includes Spurs fans.

I came around to this conclusion after much soul searching. I myself have suffered constant pain for many years--and have had many surgeries. Living in constant pain changes your life.

I believe that my previous defense of Bowen may in fact have been hypocritical in light of my own experience as a chronic pain sufferer.

MavKikiNYC
12-17-2006, 07:53 PM
BSR, you still suck.

The point is that the brouhaha about Bowen's play on Francis wasn't about Bowen's play on Francis--it was about Zeke trying to make his team fight.

It took a couple of weeks, but he finally got what he wanted.

dude1394
12-17-2006, 08:22 PM
Bowen has been called out for years, I applaud zeke doing something to bring attention to it. That he got advantage as well I don't care about. Bowen (and others) need to make damn sure they aren't pulling that crap. Anthony Johnson did the same thing but HE'S the one who got hurt.

Keep your damn feet out from under jump-shooters on the perimeter.

MavKikiNYC
12-17-2006, 10:01 PM
Bowen has been called out for years, I applaud zeke doing something to bring attention to it. That he got advantage as well I don't care about. Bowen (and others) need to make damn sure they aren't pulling that crap. Anthony Johnson did the same thing but HE'S the one who got hurt.

Keep your damn feet out from under jump-shooters on the perimeter.

Uhh....your last name isn't Dolan by chance, is it?

dude1394
12-17-2006, 10:18 PM
Uhh....your last name isn't Dolan by chance, is it?

Hey just because he's an idiot doesn't mean he can't be correct about something. And bowen sticking his feet under jump-shooters is a very dangerous tactic that needs to be stopped immediately. He should have already been warned if the nba weren't so stupid about this kind of stuff.

FINtastic
12-17-2006, 11:16 PM
Isiah may be a complete idiot, but that doesn't make Bruce Bowen any less dirty.