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View Full Version : Skip Bayliss has an interesting take on the MVP Award


fluid.forty.one
01-10-2007, 03:17 PM
He thinks nash should get it because he is playing "better" than Dirk and Kobe.


Uhhhh lol. He backed this up by pointing how his trick shots/passes. Hey Skip, why don't teams just draft and1 kids. The Professor for MVP!

He also said that Dallas is better than Suns so that should somehow go against Dirk.

He also said that Marion would just be "another guy" if it weren't for Nash. He forgot to mention Amare altogether.

I get the argument for nash as a catalyst, but it's a JOKE to say he's a better basketball player (even just at the moment) than Dirk and Kobe.

Xylus
01-10-2007, 04:06 PM
I'm a Suns fan and I think Nash is the frontrunner for MVP at the current moment, but Skip Bayless is a goddamn moron in all facets of the word. For one thing, the only thing that might hurt Dirk's chances are if Josh Howard continues to improve and carries a bigger load than before. The fact that Dallas is 1st in the league helps Dirk, though.

Marion was averaging just about 20 and 10 before Nash got there. If anything, Shawn Marion is the only player on the Suns who works for just about everything he gets, and doesn't rely much on Nash at all.

With that said, Nash is still the best player in the NBA right now, though Dirk and Kobe could certainly contend for that honor.

Five-ofan
01-10-2007, 04:09 PM
I'm a Suns fan and I think Nash is the frontrunner for MVP at the current moment, but Skip Bayless is a goddamn moron in all facets of the word. For one thing, the only thing that might hurt Dirk's chances are if Josh Howard continues to improve and carries a bigger load than before. The fact that Dallas is 1st in the league helps Dirk, though.

Marion was averaging just about 20 and 10 before Nash got there. If anything, Shawn Marion is the only player on the Suns who works for just about everything he gets, and doesn't rely much on Nash at all.

With that said, Nash is still the best player in the NBA right now, though Dirk and Kobe could certainly contend for that honor.
thanks for being civil and actually noticing that Marion was good before nash but Dirk and kobe and wade and duncan and lebron are all clearly better basketball players than nash.

FINtastic
01-10-2007, 04:15 PM
I might go jump off a cliff if Nash wins it again because I can't live in a world where people are dumb enough to give Nash 3 straight MVP Awards. I just can't.

Marion just another guy? The guy was putting up close to 20 and 10 before Nash ever got there. Nash is a very good player, but he's so ridiculously overrated right now it's not even funny.

FINtastic
01-10-2007, 04:16 PM
With that said, Nash is still the best player in the NBA right now

No, no, and no.

rmacomic
01-10-2007, 04:18 PM
I might go jump off a cliff if Nash wins it again because I can't live in a world where people are dumb enough to give Nash 3 straight MVP Awards. I just can't.

Marion just another guy? The guy was putting up close to 20 and 10 before Nash ever got there. Nash is a very good player, but he's so ridiculously overrated right now it's not even funny.
I can live with it. The mvp has become window dressing for teams that won't win it all.;)

Flacolaco
01-10-2007, 04:19 PM
I'm a Suns fan and I think Nash is the frontrunner for MVP at the current moment, but Skip Bayless is a goddamn moron in all facets of the word. For one thing, the only thing that might hurt Dirk's chances are if Josh Howard continues to improve and carries a bigger load than before. The fact that Dallas is 1st in the league helps Dirk, though.

Marion was averaging just about 20 and 10 before Nash got there. If anything, Shawn Marion is the only player on the Suns who works for just about everything he gets, and doesn't rely much on Nash at all.

With that said, Nash is still the best player in the NBA right now, though Dirk and Kobe could certainly contend for that honor.

Enjoy your regular season success.

All the best,

-Mav fans

RePLAY
01-10-2007, 04:20 PM
with NAsh winning 2 in a row..he should be expected to keep playing that way. You dont need another damn award! Give it to Kobe or Dirk!

dalmations202
01-10-2007, 04:24 PM
With that said, Nash is still the best player in the NBA right now

Is he in the top 50 defensively?
Is he in the top 20 scoring?
Is he in the top 50 rebounding?
Is he in the top 50 shot blockers?
Since he is a guard, how about top 50 in steals?
Is he in the top 20 with the ability to score one on one?


I'll give you Nash is excellent at running the show, excellent passer, good offensive player, and very smart within the game. MVP to the league though, only from a $$$ standard of wanting to promote an image. He is nothing more than a media darling. He is not close to the best overall player in the league.

Five-ofan
01-10-2007, 04:36 PM
any facebookers on here join my group, dirk nowitzki for mvp

aexchange
01-10-2007, 04:37 PM
if by interesting take you meant, idiotic.

ok.

otherwise the next time i agree with any skip bayliss has to say will be the first time.

nashtymavsfan13
01-10-2007, 04:46 PM
Skip Bayliss is an utter moron. I like Nash as much as anyone on here, but there is no way he is the best player in the NBA, no way he's better than Dirk and Kobe, and no way he deserves a 3rd straight MVP award.

Stranger
01-10-2007, 05:05 PM
I thought it was part of the new collective bargaining agreement that Steve Nash was to win every MVP award until he retired?

I mean, 3 straight MVPs is the least he deserves. Don't forget, this guy's team scores 110 points per game, and he only plays with two other perennial all-stars. Are you guys trying to say he's not in the class of Bill Russell, Kareem, Wilt, and Larry Bird?

dirno2000
01-10-2007, 05:08 PM
Is he in the top 50 defensively?
Is he in the top 20 scoring?
Is he in the top 50 rebounding?
Is he in the top 50 shot blockers?
Since he is a guard, how about top 50 in steals?
Is he in the top 20 with the ability to score one on one?


I'll give you Nash is excellent at running the show, excellent passer, good offensive player, and very smart within the game. MVP to the league though, only from a $$$ standard of wanting to promote an image. He is nothing more than a media darling. He is not close to the best overall player in the league.

I'm not usually one to defend Nash but I definitly think that he's in the top 20 when it comes to one one one scoring ability. I'm pretty sure he could put up 28-29 a game if he wanted to.

On topic, I don't think the media will give it to him 3 straight years unless he's the clear cut best player in the league and he's not. The irony is that this is probably his best year.

rabbitproof
01-10-2007, 05:38 PM
Nash winning the first one was a total shocker - who woulda thunk it?!

Nash winning the second one was like almost anti-climatic - the original movie was so shockingly bad, the sequel had no shock value left. Bad was expected and bad was delivered.

Nash winning a third one will be shocking again - the 2 is the piggyback but who expects three movies to come out of one bad story?

rmacomic
01-10-2007, 06:01 PM
Nash winning the first one was a total shocker - who woulda thunk it?!

Nash winning the second one was like almost anti-climatic - the original movie was so shockingly bad, the sequel had no shock value left. Bad was expected and bad was delivered.

Nash winning a third one will be shocking again - the 2 is the piggyback but who expects three movies to come out of one bad story?
I dunno? Did you see Saw? I saw Saw? Did you see Saw 2? I saw Saw 2 too.;)

EricaLubarsky
01-10-2007, 06:21 PM
Nash is the most overrated player in the league. The Suns don't even need Nash. Calling him extremely valuable to his team is a joke. Calling him MOST valuable? Bullcrap. Show me a team that can win at nearly the same clip regardless of whether or not their MVP plays and I will show you an undeserving MVP.

Thespiralgoeson
01-10-2007, 06:52 PM
Nash winning the award last year was so ridiculous that the award has no meaning anymore. Hell, they might as well just go ahead and give him another one now.

Steve Nash being named the NBA's most valuble player is sorta like OJ Simpson being found not guilty. Some people are just stupid.

Dirkadirkastan
01-10-2007, 07:36 PM
I dunno? Did you see Saw? I saw Saw? Did you see Saw 2? I saw Saw 2 too.;)

I stared at this post longer than any other in this thread.

chumdawg
01-10-2007, 11:23 PM
Kobe seems to be the clear frontrunner right now for the award. Nash will always be up there. If anything, their continued excellence with him at the helm gives credence to his first two awards (Erica, what in the hell are you talking about???), particularly with all their roster turnover. Dirk rounds out the worthy trifecta. Well, I guess LBJ gets consideration, too.

But it looks like Kobe, to me.

WurzburgBorn
01-10-2007, 11:28 PM
Dirk was so obviously the MVP last season, that I'm not even going to bother making an argument this season. It doesn't matter anymore. Nash is Eric Snow compared to Dirk. Lebron James and Kobe do NOT make their teams better the way that Dirk does.

bernardos70
01-10-2007, 11:32 PM
I dunno? Did you see Saw? I saw Saw? Did you see Saw 2? I saw Saw 2 too.;)

lol......... Good stuff.

EricaLubarsky
01-11-2007, 12:09 AM
Kobe seems to be the clear frontrunner right now for the award. Nash will always be up there. If anything, their continued excellence with him at the helm gives credence to his first two awards (Erica, what in the hell are you talking about???), particularly with all their roster turnover. Dirk rounds out the worthy trifecta. Well, I guess LBJ gets consideration, too.

But it looks like Kobe, to me.

Roster turnover? They play well with or without him and what important pieces did the Suns add? Sounds like its just a killer system rather than an MVP.

atrewsfan
01-11-2007, 12:47 AM
Is he in the top 50 defensively?
Is he in the top 20 scoring?
Is he in the top 50 rebounding?
Is he in the top 50 shot blockers?
Since he is a guard, how about top 50 in steals?
Is he in the top 20 with the ability to score one on one?



Did John Stockton ever finish high in any of those categories? No? Doesn't mean he wasn't one of the league's top players.

Five-ofan
01-11-2007, 12:53 AM
Did John Stockton ever finish high in any of those categories? No? Doesn't mean he wasn't one of the league's top players.
stockton is the all time leader in steals and was top 50 defensively for his time in the league... he also never got serious consideration for mvp and was signifigantly better than nash... i dont think that those things are what i would qualify the mvp by though so i see your point.

Nemesis
01-11-2007, 01:12 AM
Skip has a bit.. let him have his gay bit.. he constantly contradicts his sports-core beliefs every year..

u2sarajevo
01-11-2007, 01:16 AM
Troy Aikman is gay.

rmacomic
01-11-2007, 01:18 AM
Skip Bayliss has Woody Paige for brains.
BTW, Woody Paige = Sh*t

Drbio
01-11-2007, 01:18 AM
Skip Bayliss is a world champion pole smoker.

Nemesis
01-11-2007, 01:20 AM
Woody Paige predicted the WHOLE playoffs in the NBA last year. I don't mean a few brackets.. I mean the whole thing.. Other than that, I think he got fired from Cold Pizza and he gets muted all the time in that remote control sports game...no idea what it is called but i watch it everyday..

WurzburgBorn
01-11-2007, 10:51 AM
he gets muted all the time in that remote control sports game...no idea what it is called but i watch it everyday..

Around the Horn.
I just wish they would let the viewers award the points. They sure as hell can't stop me from muting it on my own when Jay Mariotti starts talking.

Nemesis
01-11-2007, 11:10 AM
thx..

kg_veteran
01-11-2007, 11:35 AM
Kobe seems to be the clear frontrunner right now for the award. Nash will always be up there. If anything, their continued excellence with him at the helm gives credence to his first two awards (Erica, what in the hell are you talking about???), particularly with all their roster turnover. Dirk rounds out the worthy trifecta. Well, I guess LBJ gets consideration, too.

But it looks like Kobe, to me.

Interesting. You think the MVP is coming from the No. 6 seed in the West?

Flacolaco
01-11-2007, 11:38 AM
he sells the most jerseys. makes stern the most money....yeah, makes sense to me

alexamenos
01-11-2007, 11:47 AM
the first line of this thread, as displayed, is "Skip Bayless has..."

I was really hoping to see something like....

Skip Bayless has an axe sticking out of his forehead;
Skip Bayless has a rare terminal disease;
Skip Bayless has an affair with Magic Johnson...

imagine my disappointment.

purplefrog
01-11-2007, 12:58 PM
If the argument is that Nash makes all of his teammates better and does this in way that is greater than anyone else in the league, then this is faulty reasoning. The Lenovo Stat says that the player that fits that description is Devin Harris. So.... Devin for MVP? I bet he doesn't get many votes.

MavsX
01-11-2007, 01:28 PM
Giving the MVP vote to Nash for the 3rd time is freaking stupid. No way is that right, and if that happens well the F the award..if those idiots give it to him again, then the award has lost all credit it ever had, it means[the award] shit from that day on. end of story.

Five-ofan
01-11-2007, 01:34 PM
the funny thing about this is that if nash has ever deserved an mvp it would be this year... He is having a career year(he still doesnt deserve it though...)

fluid.forty.one
01-11-2007, 01:45 PM
Skip Bayliss has Woody Paige for brains.
BTW, Woody Paige = Sh*t

I love Woody Paige. He just does dumb stuff to be funny, and it works for him. He actually knows what he's talking about if you actually listen to his points.

Five-ofan
01-11-2007, 02:14 PM
I love Woody Paige. He just does dumb stuff to be funny, and it works for him. He actually knows what he's talking about if you actually listen to his points.
Actually he doesnt.

MavsX
01-11-2007, 04:12 PM
actually, i have no idea what im talking about.

nashtymavsfan13
01-11-2007, 04:15 PM
I love Woody Paige. He just does dumb stuff to be funny, and it works for him. He actually knows what he's talking about if you actually listen to his points.

Yeah, I actually like Woody Paige also. He's very funny and he actually does make some solid arguments.

nashtymavsfan13
01-11-2007, 04:16 PM
the funny thing about this is that if nash has ever deserved an mvp it would be this year... He is having a career year(he still doesnt deserve it though...)

And that's why he unfortunately might get in again...

FINtastic
01-11-2007, 05:38 PM
And that's why he unfortunately might get in again...

Yeah, I can see that happening because the argument last year was "Well he won the MVP last year, and he's playing better this year so we have to give it to him again!"

Five-ofan
01-11-2007, 05:59 PM
Yeah, I can see that happening because the argument last year was "Well he won the MVP last year, and he's playing better this year so we have to give it to him again!"
which is funny because the same people argue that previous years should have nothing to do with it when the 3 consecutive mvp thing is brought up. I actually think this thinking is going to cost Lebron any shot at the mvp this year. 26 6 and 6 is awesome BUT its such a step down from 30 7 and 6 that if they didnt give it to him last year, its hard to give it to him this year.

StackAttack
01-11-2007, 06:30 PM
I don't think he deserved it last year, but this year...I wouldn't have much of an argument against it.

nashtymavsfan13
01-11-2007, 06:57 PM
Yeah, I can see that happening because the argument last year was "Well he won the MVP last year, and he's playing better this year so we have to give it to him again!"

Yeah, that's the main argument being made by all the media guys when they pick their MVP so far (like NBA.com, and Steve Kerr on Yahoo etc.)

He definetly is playing better than last year, and deserves it more than last year. I wouldn't have a problem with him winning it this year if he hadn't won last year, but last year was just so ridirkulous and the thought of him being in the type of company like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson by winning three straight is also ridirkulous.

birdsanctuary
01-11-2007, 08:23 PM
If Nashy voted for MVP, it would be Dirk...

Forum Closed!

V2M
01-11-2007, 09:59 PM
Dirk was so obviously the MVP last season, that I'm not even going to bother making an argument this season. It doesn't matter anymore. Nash is Eric Snow compared to Dirk. Lebron James and Kobe do NOT make their teams better the way that Dirk does.

Word

nashtymavsfan13
01-11-2007, 10:02 PM
If Nashy voted for MVP, it would be Dirk...

Forum Closed!

Haha :)

I'm still biased though cuz Dirk's my favorite player and Nash is second, but Dirk definetly is more deserving.

Xylus
01-12-2007, 01:43 AM
I think the main reason you guys are so opposed to Nash getting the MVP this year is because he's already won the award twice in a row. If Nash hadn't won in either of those years, I don't think this would be such an issue.

Nash may not be leading the league in scoring or rebounding or steals, but he still drives his team better than anyone in the league. He averages 20 points and 11 assists, which are amazing stats for anyone, and the Suns are 27-8. Looking at this issue without thinking about past years, Nash is easily an MVP frontrunner. You could argue that he's not THE frontrunner right now, but he's Top 3, at least.

I agree with you guys, though, that Dirk probably should have won it last year.

Enjoy your regular season success.

All the best,

-Mav fans

Back at ya! :) We'll be seein' you in the WCF.

dirno2000
01-12-2007, 01:48 AM
Why is he easily the frontrunner when Dallas is 28-8?

Dirk is just as valuable to his team and to this point Dirk's team is better. Even if Nash didn't win it last year, he's not the clear frontrunner. He's a legitimate candidate but that's it.

Xylus
01-12-2007, 01:49 AM
You don't have to be on the team with the best record in order to win MVP... I was just using that stat to show how successful the Suns have been.

It's also more than just stats... Arguably, Nash hasn't had the best stats in the league the past two years. It's the way he plays, how efficiently he gets things done. The guy is shooting 53% from the field, 51% on 3FG, 89% from the FT line. He's the best distributor in the game. He's the most competent shooter (which those stats show) in the game. He's been clutch all this season.

As a Suns fan, I get to watch this guy every game and I get to see just how much his presence impacts the team. That's not to take anything away from Kobe or Dirk...but to say Nash isn't right up there with those two guys is just naive.

One more thing...Dallas has a better record, sure. But 2 games ago, Dallas was 27-8. What is Phoenix now? 27-8. Seems like the two teams are right on par with each other record-wise.

dirno2000
01-12-2007, 02:02 AM
You don't have to be on the team with the best record in order to win MVP... I was just using that stat to show how successful the Suns have been.

It's also more than just stats... Arguably, Nash hasn't had the best stats in the league the past two years. It's the way he plays, how efficiently he gets things done. The guy is shooting 53% from the field, 51% on 3FG, 89% from the FT line. He's the best distributor in the game. He's the most competent shooter (which those stats show) in the game. He's been clutch all this season.

As a Suns fan, I get to watch this guy every game and I get to see just how much his presence impacts the team. That's not to take anything away from Kobe or Dirk...but to say Nash isn't right up there with those two guys is just naive.

One more thing...Dallas has a better record, sure. But 2 games ago, Dallas was 27-8. What is Phoenix now? 27-8. Seems like the two teams are right on par with each other record-wise.

No, but traditionally it helps. At least it did until last year when the media deviated from the way they normally vote and gave it to Nash because it was a good story.

Nash has been clutch this year (as opposed to last year) but so has Dirk. You saw that first hand a couple of weeks ago. Then he turned around and did it to the Spurs. Dirk has been clutch against better teams. Even the most die hard Suns fan should be able to admit that.

As far as efficiency, Dirk has a higher PER (player efficiency rating) and a higher +/- than Nash, further proving that he’s just as valuable to his team as Nash is to his.

One more thing...Dallas has a better record, sure. But 2 games ago, Dallas was 27-8. What is Phoenix now? 27-8. Seems like the two teams are right on par with each other record-wise.

Ture but we've beat the Suns twice head up. We've also knocked off Utah and the Spurs, something the Suns have been unable to do.

Xylus
01-12-2007, 02:17 AM
Can't deny that the Mavs have beaten the Suns twice this year. Generally, you don't use head-to-head matchups, though, to determine a tiebreaker between two players. Plus, the Mavs beat the Suns in the first two matchups last season, but the Suns won the next two. Hypothetically, that same thing could happen this season.

The PER and +/- stats are good ones. Let's look at a few others: Dirk averaged 26.6 pts and 9.0 reb last season. This season he's averaging 23.9 and 9.3, so he's actually scoring at a lower clip (minus 2-and-a-half points) while rebounding slightly more. Meanwhile, Nash is scoring more and dishing more (18.8 pts to 20.1 pts this season, 10.5 ast to 11.0 ast).

Sure seems like Dirk and Nash are both worthy contenders. The only difference is that you're a Mavs fan and I'm a Suns fan. :p

dirno2000
01-12-2007, 02:30 AM
Generally, you don't use head-to-head matchups, though, to determine a tiebreaker between two players.

I agree. I'm just backing up my claim that, to this point, the Mavs have been the better team.

The PER and +/- stats are good ones. Let's look at a few others: Dirk averaged 26.6 pts and 9.0 reb last season. This season he's averaging 23.9 and 9.3, so he's actually scoring at a lower clip (minus 2-and-a-half points) while rebounding slightly more. Meanwhile, Nash is scoring more and dishing more (18.8 pts to 20.1 pts this season, 10.5 ast to 11.0 ast).

Yes, Dirk's numbers are down year over year but that really shouldn't matter.

My point is that, even when you take out the bias against, Nash due to him winning it the past two years, Dirk's current year is as good as or better than Nash's.

But as I said earlier, unlike last year I think Nash is a legitimate candidate.

Stranger
01-12-2007, 02:52 AM
Michael Jordan never won three consecutive MVPs. I think that may stick in the craw of some voters. But then again, I never thought he would win the second one.

nashtymavsfan13
01-12-2007, 03:10 AM
Can't deny that the Mavs have beaten the Suns twice this year. Generally, you don't use head-to-head matchups, though, to determine a tiebreaker between two players. Plus, the Mavs beat the Suns in the first two matchups last season, but the Suns won the next two. Hypothetically, that same thing could happen this season.

The PER and +/- stats are good ones. Let's look at a few others: Dirk averaged 26.6 pts and 9.0 reb last season. This season he's averaging 23.9 and 9.3, so he's actually scoring at a lower clip (minus 2-and-a-half points) while rebounding slightly more. Meanwhile, Nash is scoring more and dishing more (18.8 pts to 20.1 pts this season, 10.5 ast to 11.0 ast).

Sure seems like Dirk and Nash are both worthy contenders. The only difference is that you're a Mavs fan and I'm a Suns fan. :p

I'm a Mavs fan, but I'm also a big Steve Nash fan (notice my username). I still have some bias though because Dirk is my favorite player, but Nashty is a clear second. The records match up pretty well, but the Mavs have the better one along with beating the Suns twice gives Dirk the nod in that department. The PER and +/- stats are very important ones and Dirk is better in that. You pointed out Dirk's scoring dropping this year, and the reason for that is he's taking 3.2 less shots a game. To have your scoring go down only 2.5 points while taking 3.2 less shots a game again shows very good efficiency. You pointed out Nash's %'s, Dirk's are very good as well at 50% FG (and shooting more per game), 40% 3's, and 90% from the line.

Both Dirk and Nash are very worthy candidates and two of the four real contenders for the MVP (Kobe and Boozer being the others with Lebron also having a good case). Nash is certainly more deserving than last year, but the fact that he's won it twice in a row and has 2 All-Star teammates really hurts that argument. That being said, Dirk fully deserves the award for again stepping up his game statwise, but has also become an even better teammate while leading his team to the best record in the league. Dirk SHOULD win it, but right now it doesn't look fully likely that he WILL win it.

What should have happened though was Dirk should have won it last year and Nash should win it this year. Too bad the voters screwed up. Now they should make up for it, and give it to Dirk because he again has just as strong a case, if not more strong a case than Nashty. Unfortunately I don't see that happening. My guess is Nashty will win it for the third year in a row due to the pathetic "Well his numbers were better than last year and he won it last year, so he deserves it agian" argument. Nash winning it last year was a joke, thus his three in a row will also be a joke (as much as it hurts me to say it).

Good luck to your Suns the rest of the season (I don't really mean that ;)) and to Steve Nash (I do mean that :)) Even if Dirk might not be winning the MVP award this season again due to terrible voting by the voters, he will be the one holding up the trophy that really matters at the end of the season.

Five-ofan
01-12-2007, 11:40 AM
He averages 20 points and 11 assists, which are amazing stats for anyone, and the Suns are 27-8. Looking at this issue without thinking about past years, Nash is easily an MVP frontrunner. You could argue that he's not THE frontrunner right now, but he's Top 3, at least.


not to quibble but if he is EASILY the frontfunner how could you argue that he isnt the frontrunner? The comparison of this year to last year that you used earlier is pointless. The fact that dirk is only a slightly better mvp choice instead of a vastly better mvp choice like last year doesnt do alot for me.

Five-ofan
01-12-2007, 11:55 AM
skip bayless should be outlawed from ever talking about nash or basketball. He just said nash is the best passer ever and the second best pg. good lord, never did i think i would ever see someone make chris broussard look smart.

AxdemxO
01-12-2007, 02:31 PM
Nash is not the best player in the NBA rite now, He is probably the best passer rite now.

That being said if the MVP was given out now, I would give it to him again

Five-ofan
01-12-2007, 02:37 PM
i agree he is a candidate, but just want to ask something, if everyone agrees that the suns have more talent excluding the mvp candidates(they do whether you agree or not) and the mavs have a better record and have beat them head to head, then how can you legitimately argue that nash is the mvp?

i dont think anyone is foolish enough to argue he is the best player so if he has more talent around him i dont see how you can argue he is the most important either...

rmacomic
01-12-2007, 03:31 PM
Bayliss was just on ESPN. He said Nash is the best passer and best point guard EVER.
Nash is good, but Bayliss is a clueless ass.

Five-ofan
01-12-2007, 03:37 PM
Bayliss was just on ESPN. He said Nash is the best passer and best point guard EVER.
Nash is good, but Bayliss is a clueless ass.
yeah he said it this morning. Bayliss is a douche. Actually he said magic was the best pg ever due to his height and winners intangibles.

V2M
01-12-2007, 04:49 PM
nvm

Xylus
01-12-2007, 04:53 PM
not to quibble but if he is EASILY the frontfunner how could you argue that he isnt the frontrunner? The comparison of this year to last year that you used earlier is pointless. The fact that dirk is only a slightly better mvp choice instead of a vastly better mvp choice like last year doesnt do alot for me.
I was using the word "frontrunner" to describe a top MVP candidate like Kobe, Dirk, and Nash. "THE frontrunner" was used to refer to the best MVP candidate. Probably should have used a different word than frontrunner.

Five-ofan
01-12-2007, 05:08 PM
I was using the word "frontrunner" to describe a top MVP candidate like Kobe, Dirk, and Nash. "THE frontrunner" was used to refer to the best MVP candidate. Probably should have used a different word than frontrunner.
so you are saying that he is easily a candidate this year? that i agree with.

Grammaton Cleric
01-12-2007, 05:47 PM
I too am a Suns fan, and I was totally convinced that Nowitzki was going to win the MVP last year. I was as surprised as everyone when Nash took it.

But just for the sake of clearing something up, Nash won the MVP last year for one reason - Amare.

It wasn't just that Nash improved his stats, it was that he was able to lead the Suns to another division title despite the fact that Stoudemire missed virtually the entire season.

So was it fair? Can't say. Dirk deserved it for sure.

Did he deserve it more than Nash? Debatable, but the majority of the voters didn't think so.

One last thing, you Mavs fans that now loathe Nash and think he's basically over-hyped dog crap on a stick - could it just be a little bit of sour grapes? So he's not a great defender - who says the MVP has to be GREAT at everything? Duncan's won a couple, but he's a lousy free throw shooter. So what? Does Dirk play absolute shut down defense? If you say 'yes' you're kidding yourselves.

Dirk is a phenomenal all-world offensive player and a solid defender. Nash is an incredible facilitator, distributor, creator and deadly shooter. But those aren't the only reasons they're in the MVP race. The success of their teams is also critical.

Nash is just as legit a candidate as Dirk.

MVP = Most Valuable Player. Not BEST player.

The award hasn't been 'tainted' or 'devalued'. Nash was just in the right place at the right time - twice. If you agree that nash can be considered a frontrunner, then you have to agree that he can actually win it.

Five-ofan
01-12-2007, 05:55 PM
I too am a Suns fan, and I was totally convinced that Nowitzki was going to win the MVP last year. I was as surprised as everyone when Nash took it.

But just for the sake of clearing something up, Nash won the MVP last year for one reason - Amare.

It wasn't just that Nash improved his stats, it was that he was able to lead the Suns to another division title despite the fact that Stoudemire missed virtually the entire season.

So was it fair? Can't say. Dirk deserved it for sure.

Did he deserve it more than Nash? Debatable, but the majority of the voters didn't think so.

One last thing, you Mavs fans that now loathe Nash and think he's basically over-hyped dog crap on a stick - could it just be a little bit of sour grapes? So he's not a great defender - who says the MVP has to be GREAT at everything? Duncan's won a couple, but he's a lousy free throw shooter. So what? Does Dirk play absolute shut down defense? If you say 'yes' you're kidding yourselves.

Dirk is a phenomenal all-world offensive player and a solid defender. Nash is an incredible facilitator, distributor, creator and deadly shooter. But those aren't the only reasons they're in the MVP race. The success of their teams is also critical.

Nash is just as legit a candidate as Dirk.

MVP = Most Valuable Player. Not BEST player.

The award hasn't been 'tainted' or 'devalued'. Nash was just in the right place at the right time - twice. If you agree that nash can be considered a frontrunner, then you have to agree that he can actually win it.
no i dont. He is VASTLY more deserving of it this year than he was last year or the year before. I dont mind him being a candidate THIS year. He shouldnt have been last year. It should have been dirk or lebron and NO one else should have gotten a first place vote.


The amare excuse is the result of a bunch of morons to be honest. People that are too stupid to look at what his team actually had instead of what it didnt have.

The other part of this is that the suns werent that good last year. yes 54 wins is nice. No its not enough to lift a person without great individual numbers that STILL has good talent around him to the mvp.

fluid.forty.one
01-12-2007, 06:19 PM
MVP = Most Valuable Player. Not BEST player.


You just caught the point of my thread. Bayliss said he is the MVP because he is the BEST player. It's that last part I have a problem with, and I'm sure everyone in the world would disagree with Skip the Dip.

Xylus
01-12-2007, 06:26 PM
Skip Bayless shouldn't be commenting on basketball, a sport he clearly has no deep knowledge of. He's a complete waste of space professionally.

dirno2000
01-12-2007, 06:26 PM
The amare excuse is the result of a bunch of morons to be honest. People that are too stupid to look at what his team actually had instead of what it didnt have.

This sums it up. The media always want's the quick and easy answer.

PHX also traded for Kurt Thomas who gave them an inside presscence. They signed Raja Bell who replaced Quinton Richardson's 3-point shooting and played defense. They added Boris Diaw who went on to win most improved player. And Shawn Marion picked up his game to the point where he was a borderline MVP candidate.

Nevermind all that though, Nash must have been carrying the team on his back. Because that makes the best story.

Grammaton Cleric
01-12-2007, 06:28 PM
no i dont. He is VASTLY more deserving of it this year than he was last year or the year before. I dont mind him being a candidate THIS year. He shouldnt have been last year. It should have been dirk or lebron and NO one else should have gotten a first place vote.

Why vastly? What's the difference between this year and last? The +2 ppg? I don't see a huge difference between last year's Nash and this year's Nash. The biggest difference is that the Suns team has been healthy so far.

If you're talking strictly numbers, then I'd argue that Dirk is less deserving so far this year, because his stats are down.

The amare excuse is the result of a bunch of morons to be honest. People that are too stupid to look at what his team actually had instead of what it didnt have.

No what they saw was what happened to last year's Suns team nearly everytime Nash took a breather. The offense went to hell.

The conclusion was that Nash made these guys look a whole lot better than they are, which you say is wrong.

The other part of this is that the suns werent that good last year. yes 54 wins is nice. No its not enough to lift a person without great individual numbers that STILL has good talent around him to the mvp.

But it wasn't just 54 wins, it was 54 wins WITHOUT Stoudemire (and later Kurt Thomas). When he went down, the entire basketball world predicted 40-45 wins and an 8 seed at best for the Suns. What they accomplished was so much more than was expected, it left a big impression on the voters.

You're going to tell me that you thought the Suns would still win the Pacific without their leading scorer and ONLY legit low post threat?

Grammaton Cleric
01-12-2007, 06:31 PM
You just caught the point of my thread. Bayliss said he is the MVP because he is the BEST player. It's that last part I have a problem with, and I'm sure everyone in the world would disagree with Skip the Dip.

Yeah, but he wouldn't be saying it if the Suns were 18-16. I totally agree with you though. Bayless just kind've has a man crush on Nash it seems.

Five-ofan
01-12-2007, 06:50 PM
Why vastly? What's the difference between this year and last? The +2 ppg? I don't see a huge difference between last year's Nash and this year's Nash. The biggest difference is that the Suns team has been healthy so far.

If you're talking strictly numbers, then I'd argue that Dirk is less deserving so far this year, because his stats are down.



No what they saw was what happened to last year's Suns team nearly everytime Nash took a breather. The offense went to hell.

The conclusion was that Nash made these guys look a whole lot better than they are, which you say is wrong.



But it wasn't just 54 wins, it was 54 wins WITHOUT Stoudemire (and later Kurt Thomas). When he went down, the entire basketball world predicted 40-45 wins and an 8 seed at best for the Suns. What they accomplished was so much more than was expected, it left a big impression on the voters.

You're going to tell me that you thought the Suns would still win the Pacific without their leading scorer and ONLY legit low post threat?

first off if your going to complain about not having kurt thomas for the period of time that the suns didnt have him then here are the mavs players who you can actually count, Dirk nowitzki Jason terry, erick dampier, Desaga Diop. EVERYONE else missed at least a comparable amount of time to Kurt thomas. This was the most underlooked part of the mavs last year and dirks game too. Nash does make the game easier for his team(i much prefer that to the makes them better bs) but so does dirk to damn near the same extent just in different ways. Dirk actually sets poor picks but because of who he is and the respect he commands they are ridiculously effective and they are a major reason why a guy who was a career 42% shooter with Atl is a 48+% shooter for dallas.

As to what people predicted, what the hell does that have to do with anything? So because the media mispredicted what the suns would be(and many did still pick them to win that division) Nash should somehow get extra points? Thats just foolish. Let me ask you this, if they had won 48 games(which still would have won that average division) do you think he still would have deserved the award? Of course not. If they were in the same division with the mavs or spurs and got second but still won 54 should that have made him a signifigantly worse candidate? No. So stop using winning an average division as an argument unless you are going to argue that the mavs would magically have won 7 less games if they were in that division.

Why is nash a better candidate this year? Because his team has a great record. They didnt last year. His individual numbers are better but thats not the biggest part of it. The suns were a good but not great regular season team last year. They are a great regular season team this year. That elevates his status. For comparison they were closer in record to the cavs than the mavs while everyone used the cavs record as the only reason lebron couldnt win it.

Now we are going to get to the heart and soul of this matter. Steve nash making his teammates better. As I have already mentioned I conclude that this means putting them in easier situations to succeed. EVERY superstar does this if by nothing other than prescence alone as long as they dont have the ball in their hand ALL of the time. Dirk does it. Ive already mentioned his screens. He is a guy that teams almost always refuse to come off of. He also draws alot of doubles and while it doesnt lead to assists because of the style the mavs play vs the style phoenix plays, he does pass well(though clearly not nash well). My biggest problem with this theory is that it is not a players job to make his teammates better. Its his job to make his TEAM better.

I know that sounds like a really weird distinction to make but it is a legit distinction. Whatever you want to say about nash making teammates better vs dirk being looked at as a guy who doesnt, Dirk took a less talented team and yes dallas was still less talented even without amare(excluding the mvp candidates) to a better record. That is by definition making your team better. This post is getting really long so i will continue my rant in a bit but im not sure how many people will actually make it this far so im going to stop for now.

Five-ofan
01-12-2007, 07:01 PM
Ok to keep going because i just heard something from tim legler that made me think. He said nash made household names out of guys who wouldnt be. Really? Who? Amare is an absolute freak athletically that averaged 25 and 10 when he came back from injury the year before nash got there. marion? he was a perennial all star and pretty close to 20 and 10 guy BEFORE nash. Raja bell? Hes not really a household name but his numbers remained pretty constant from his numbers the year before he just got more shots because of the faster paced game. Diaw? Maybe but he had 2 triple doubles when nash was out of the lineup last year.

The purpose of this is that im trying to point something out. I do think that phoenix Style has made them or at least their numbers look better than they are. HOWEVER i think some of you need to learn that the phoenix system and steve nash arent the same thing. Yes nash is the perfect fit for that system and he does help it alot but there is at least one other player who is as important to their system as he is.

Xylus
01-12-2007, 07:58 PM
Not saying that there aren't players on the Suns who aren't as important as Nash (if the Suns ever trade Marion, I'll be extremely disappointed in the franchise), but if you want to talk about the system that they run...

There is no Phoenix Suns breakneck, kill-teams-with-offense system without Steve Nash. You take him out of the lineup and insert a slightly less-gifted point guard and suddenly the Suns are no longer near as good as Dallas and San Antonio. That's what value is.

Oh, and Grammaton: I like the way you think.

Five-ofan
01-12-2007, 08:07 PM
Not saying that there aren't players on the Suns who aren't as important as Nash (if the Suns ever trade Marion, I'll be extremely disappointed in the franchise), but if you want to talk about the system that they run...

There is no Phoenix Suns breakneck, kill-teams-with-offense system without Steve Nash. You take him out of the lineup and insert a slightly less-gifted point guard and suddenly the Suns are no longer near as good as Dallas and San Antonio. That's what value is.

Oh, and Grammaton: I like the way you think.
you take dirk off the mavs and they dont make the playoffs. Same for duncan on the spurs. I firmly believe the suns make the playoffs without nash.

Nemesis
01-12-2007, 09:21 PM
I am sure Gilbert Arenas will be the next ESPN hard-on...Again, completely skipping Dirk's earned hard-on. ESPN is a political, propaganda, shallow network.

Whoever said 'quick fix' is correct in describing ESPN-NBA

FINtastic
01-12-2007, 10:41 PM
When he went down, the entire basketball world predicted 40-45 wins and an 8 seed at best for the Suns. What they accomplished was so much more than was expected, it left a big impression on the voters.

You're going to tell me that you thought the Suns would still win the Pacific without their leading scorer and ONLY legit low post threat?

When the Mavs lost Nash, a lot of people thought they were in serious trouble because they no longer had an experienced, true point guard. Steve Kerr picked the Mavs to finish 9th in the West. Instead the Mavs end up with the third best record in the West with 58 wins. Yet I don't see Dirk toting an MVP trophy.

When the Chicago lost the greatest player of all time after they won the 1993 Championship, they responding by posting a 55-27 record. Yet I don't see Scottie Pippen carrying MVP trophy either.

Let's face it, the Amare excuse all by itself is lame. And when you look at how Nash was playing with a very solid supporting cast (Marion who was easily a top 10 player, Boris Diaw who created so many mismatches, and a very solid player in Raja Bell), I don't see how you can say Nash was any more valuable than Dirk or LeBron.

FINtastic
01-12-2007, 10:41 PM
you take dirk off the mavs and they dont make the playoffs. Same for duncan on the spurs. I firmly believe the suns make the playoffs without nash.

Heck if you take Nash off the Mavs you have a 58 win team.

rmacomic
01-12-2007, 10:45 PM
Heck if you take Nash off the Mavs you have a 58 win team.
That post was all net.:)

V2M
01-12-2007, 10:46 PM
That post was all net.:)

And 1

FreshJive
01-12-2007, 11:18 PM
Nash isn't the best overall player in the league, but there isn't a better player on the offensive side of the ball right now. He leads the league in true shooting percentage and assists.

V2M
01-12-2007, 11:44 PM
Assists are vastly overrated

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 12:48 AM
This sums it up. The media always want's the quick and easy answer.

PHX also traded for Kurt Thomas who gave them an inside presscence. They signed Raja Bell who replaced Quinton Richardson's 3-point shooting and played defense. They added Boris Diaw who went on to win most improved player. And Shawn Marion picked up his game to the point where he was a borderline MVP candidate.

Nevermind all that though, Nash must have been carrying the team on his back. Because that makes the best story.I like your line of thinking. But c'mon, with one thing: how many teams was Boris Diaw going to win most improved on? Basically, Diaw can thank Nash for that award.

It's stuff like that that actually cements Nash case.

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 12:51 AM
Heck if you take Nash off the Mavs you have a 58 win team.A lot of teams win 58 (or more, sometimes) and don't win a championship. In itself, that says nothing. As it stands yet, the Mavs haven't proven anything more without him than they proved with him.

Phoenix, on the other hand, has proved a great deal.

Five-ofan
01-13-2007, 12:52 AM
I like your line of thinking. But c'mon, with one thing: how many teams was Boris Diaw going to win most improved on? Basically, Diaw can thank Nash for that award.

It's stuff like that that actually cements Nash case.
no chum. you are flat out wrong here. Diaw can thank an up tempo system and a coach that thinks out of the box enough to play a shooting guard at center for the majority of the season due to the fact that said sg cant shoot but its not nash. Did nash help him? im sure he helped him as any great player helps the other players around him BUT you guys are acting like diaw was garbage without nash. he had a higher plus/minus than nash AND he had 2 triple doubles in the 4 games that nash missed. Diaw is just fine.

dude1394
01-13-2007, 12:54 AM
How long has dan-to-ni been coaching the suns? How many seasons before little stevie? Did the uptempo come on just when he showed up?

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 12:58 AM
I like your line of thinking. But c'mon, with one thing: how many teams was Boris Diaw going to win most improved on? Basically, Diaw can thank Nash for that award.

It's stuff like that that actually cements Nash case.

No he has D'Antoni to thank for it. D'Antoni ran a system that created some incredible mismatches for a guy with the skillset of Diaw. Nash may have helped a tad, but he didn't "win the award" for Diaw. If Nash "won the award for him" Diaw wouldn't put up numbers like this when Nash was sitting out -

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AgO4pabx6ZlC6Fa2u5RfBgGkvLYF?gid=200 6041613

Or numbers like this -

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Aide_YhkHi76_ZmfT_NrIy6kvLYF?gid=200 6041409

That's right two triple-doubles. 28 assists total in those two games. To say Nash created Boris Diaw is absurd.

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 01:02 AM
A lot of teams win 58 (or more, sometimes) and don't win a championship. In itself, that says nothing. As it stands yet, the Mavs haven't proven anything more without him than they proved with him.

Phoenix, on the other hand, has proved a great deal.

Huh? I think you are missing the point here. How did Phoenix without Amare prove anything more than Dallas did without Nash? So why is Nash getting all the credit for what the Suns did and Dirk not getting any credit here?

And how has Phoenix proved a great deal? Last year they played a gimmicky style that won them a good amount of games but wasn't all that successful when the playoffs rolled around. 54 wins is proving a great deal while 58 wins says nothing? I have to admit I'm awfully confused by this line of thinking.

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 01:24 AM
no chum. you are flat out wrong here. Diaw can thank an up tempo system and a coach that thinks out of the box enough to play a shooting guard at center for the majority of the season due to the fact that said sg cant shoot but its not nash. Did nash help him? im sure he helped him as any great player helps the other players around him BUT you guys are acting like diaw was garbage without nash. he had a higher plus/minus than nash AND he had 2 triple doubles in the 4 games that nash missed. Diaw is just fine.No, you're right. But Nash is the guy who allows them to play that way. Anybody else who can?

That's why people have voted him MVP.

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 01:25 AM
To say Nash created Boris Diaw is absurd.Well, the Hawks sure didn't create Boris Diaw!

Five-ofan
01-13-2007, 01:26 AM
No, you're right. But Nash is the guy who allows them to play that way. Anybody else who can?

That's why people have voted him MVP.
jason kidd, chauncey billups, chris paul, deron williams etc... There would be a dropoff sure but they would still be a great team.

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 01:28 AM
Huh? I think you are missing the point here. How did Phoenix without Amare prove anything more than Dallas did without Nash? So why is Nash getting all the credit for what the Suns did and Dirk not getting any credit here?

And how has Phoenix proved a great deal? Last year they played a gimmicky style that won them a good amount of games but wasn't all that successful when the playoffs rolled around. 54 wins is proving a great deal while 58 wins says nothing? I have to admit I'm awfully confused by this line of thinking.Dirk got a lot of credit. I think he was second or third in the MVP voting, wasn't he?

The season before they voted on last year's award, Nash had dismissed of Dirk in the playoffs. What do you want people to go on? The general concensus, I think, is that Dirk had a better cast around him last year than Nash did.

The sad thing is that they may, in fact, be the best two players in all of the NBA. And once they were teammates!

You shudder to think about it.

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 01:32 AM
jason kidd, chauncey billups, chris paul, deron williams etc... There would be a dropoff sure but they would still be a great team.

You could maybe even add Raymond Felton to that list. The guy averages about 9 or 10 assists a game for Charlotte when he is running the point. Not to mention he ran a very similar system to perfection at North Carolina. His jumpshot is nowhere near Nash's, but I have faith that he could distribute the ball comparably.

Five-ofan
01-13-2007, 01:34 AM
Dirk got a lot of credit. I think he was second or third in the MVP voting, wasn't he?

The season before they voted on last year's award, Nash had dismissed of Dirk in the playoffs. What do you want people to go on? The general concensus, I think, is that Dirk had a better cast around him last year than Nash did.

The sad thing is that they may, in fact, be the best two players in all of the NBA. And once they were teammates!

You shudder to think about it.
the general consensus is that dirk had a better cast around him? Really? Then the general populas that came to that consensus needs to get a clue besides the mavs were signifigantly better than the suns last year so if the casts were CLOSE even if dirk had the better cast he would have deserved it.

dirno2000
01-13-2007, 01:34 AM
I like your line of thinking. But c'mon, with one thing: how many teams was Boris Diaw going to win most improved on? Basically, Diaw can thank Nash for that award.

It's stuff like that that actually cements Nash case.

And it's thinking like that that led to Nash wrongly being awarded his 2nd MVP.

First of all, let's give the kid some credit for his own development because he's the one who put in the work. I watched quite a bit of Eurobasket 2005 and Diaw was the best player on a French team with Tony Parker and Mikael Pietrus.

5-0 and Fintastic have already pointed out how he benefited from the Suns system so I won't go into that.

I will say that Diaw is not a finisher like Amare and Marion. In fact, he's an initiator himself. He came into his own early in the season while coming off the bench. The Suns didn't have a competent backup PG so D'Antoni ran the offense through Diaw and it worked our really well. Eventually he moved into the starting lineup but he still handled the ball quit a bit. One of their most effective sets was the high low game with Diaw and Marion.

And I'm sure you remember the WCF when he was doing most of his damage by taking Dirk and our centers off of the dribble.

Boris Diaw is not a Nash creation but since it's a feel good story we (and by we I mean you and the media) give him the credit.

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 01:37 AM
Dirk got a lot of credit. I think he was second or third in the MVP voting, wasn't he?

He got third, which isn't a lot of credit when you consider Nash is running away with the award for doing less.

The season before they voted on last year's award, Nash had dismissed of Dirk in the playoffs.

Why isn't anyone in the media bringing up that Dirk dismissed of Nash this year?

The general concensus, I think, is that Dirk had a better cast around him last year than Nash did.

Well I disagree with that consensus. Nash had a sidekick in Marion that was head and shoulders above the second best guy on the Dallas roster. He had pretty darn good role players in Diaw and Bell. Thomas was solid. Nash wasn't playing with mince meat. Not to mention Dirk won 6 more games anyways.

FreshJive
01-13-2007, 01:40 AM
What has been proven is that Cuban made a retarded decision.

Why we were wrong about Steve Nash

By John Hollinger

http://www.bdasports.com/news/steve_nash_why_wrong.htm

Five-ofan
01-13-2007, 01:42 AM
What has been proven is that Cuban made a retarded decision.

Why we were wrong about Steve Nash

By John Hollinger

http://www.bdasports.com/news/steve_nash_why_wrong.htm
no such thing has been proven. since steve nash left(and im projecting for this season) the mavs have had the two best seasons in team history in only a 3 year period and won 58 in the down year.

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 01:42 AM
What has been proven is that Cuban made a retarded decision.

Why we were wrong about Steve Nash

By John Hollinger

http://www.bdasports.com/news/steve_nash_why_wrong.htm

What does this have to do with the MVP award?

FreshJive
01-13-2007, 02:14 AM
"What does this have to do with the MVP award?"
Well Hollinger has always been a doubter of sorts when it comes to Nash's greatness. If he is coming around then I think Nash might have a chance to repeat.

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 02:18 AM
"What does this have to do with the MVP award?"
Well Hollinger has always been a doubter of sorts when it comes to Nash's greatness. If he is coming around then I think Nash might have a chance to repeat.

So his one vote is going to tip the scales?

*Edited - I just scanned through the whole article I don't see anywhere in there where Hollinger states that Steve Nash is his MVP. Steve Nash's contract status doesn't really have much to do with whether or not he's MVP.

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 02:24 AM
And it's thinking like that that led to Nash wrongly being awarded his 2nd MVP.

First of all, let's give the kid some credit for his own development because he's the one who put in the work. I watched quite a bit of Eurobasket 2005 and Diaw was the best player on a French team with Tony Parker and Mikael Pietrus.

5-0 and Fintastic have already pointed out how he benefited from the Suns system so I won't go into that.

I will say that Diaw is not a finisher like Amare and Marion. In fact, he's an initiator himself. He came into his own early in the season while coming off the bench. The Suns didn't have a competent backup PG so D'Antoni ran the offense through Diaw and it worked our really well. Eventually he moved into the starting lineup but he still handled the ball quit a bit. One of their most effective sets was the high low game with Diaw and Marion.

And I'm sure you remember the WCF when he was doing most of his damage by taking Dirk and our centers off of the dribble.

Boris Diaw is not a Nash creation but since it's a feel good story we (and by we I mean you and the media) give him the credit.Hey, I'm not knocking the kid. I recognized right away that the Suns fleeced the Hawks in that Johnson deal. The kid can play.

But...he faces a lot less defense in that Nash-led offense than he would on just about every other team in the NBA, doesn't he?

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 02:27 AM
Why isn't anyone in the media bringing up that Dirk dismissed of Nash this year?That's a very fair point. I do think the flipside had credence that year, and likewise I think this point has credence this year.

For the record, I don't think there is any way Nash wins the MVP this year, nor do I think he deserves it. I think it's Dirk award to lose. And yes, that does take into account playoff performance from last year.

FreshJive
01-13-2007, 02:33 AM
I never said anything about Hollinger's vote, Fintastic. Just that even Nash's critics seem to be impressed by his sustained stats. Nash is making it harder and harder to say he doesn't deserve it.

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 02:39 AM
A lot of people in this thread seem to think he doesn't deserve it -

http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/viewtopic.php?t=696

It's from April of 2006, but the points remain very relevant. They are also points that the Nash apologists never do seem to be able to answer. I'll paste the article that the thread centers around.

Nash the MVP: Who cares?

By Anthony Coleman

By now you may have heard that Steve Nash will almost certainly win his second MVP consecutive MVP award. Well as a basketball fan the problem that I had with Nash’s MVP win (much like his win the year before) is that his case for winning basketball’s top individual honor, is dubious at best. When the news broke on ESPN, I was angry about the result; now I’m just disappointed.

I’m not disappointed over the fact that so many voters got the award wrong. OK that’s a lie. I am a little angry over Nash’s win.
As was the case last year, Nash received way too much credit for Phoenix’s season. By looking at the information that is available and watching the games it was clear that Shawn Marion was every bit as important to the Sun’s success as Nash was. Yet because Nash was the “new guy” last year, and because the Suns enjoyed a very good season despite the absence of Amare Stoudemire this year; Nash was given the credit for carrying the team. In the words of Paul Mooney; “It’s all crap”.

Marion lead the Suns in points, rebound, steals, minutes played, blocked shots, and was second on the team in True Shooting percentage. Meanwhile Steve Nash was second in the team in points, first in assists, and the leader in true shooting percentage. I’m sorry but, based on the evidence, how can anybody suggest that Nash is far and away the best player on the Phoenix Suns? In reality, Nash was just as equal to Marion, but because Nash has the halo of “making the Suns a championship team”, Nash is looked upon as the superstar, while Marion is viewed as a fine, but complementary player.

So yeah to a certain extent Nash’s MVP win annoyed me, but it didn’t disappoint me. No, my disappointment lies in the fact that the majority of basketball writers selected Nash as the MVP winner; for all the wrong reasons and thus cheapened the award.

Leading up to the vote, I read so many Nash-for-MVP articles, and what disturbed me wasn’t because they were wrong. No, my resentment stems from the fact that these writers refused to adequately support their claims and pay attention to details. Instead these writers relied upon homilies and warmed over clichés such as “Nash makes his teammates better” or “Nash is the reason for Phoenix’s success”, “Steve Nash is carrying the Suns” and “Shawn Marion is a good sidekick but Steve Nash is called upon to win games”.

Yes all of those claims are nice, but you know what? If you choose not to support your claims based on clear and concise research then those proclamations are hollow. In the vast majority of the Nash articles, I saw writers relying solely upon grand statements, yet none of these writers asked or attempted to answer basic fundamental questions such as:

-How does Nash make his teammates better?
-Why are the Suns a title contender?
-What effect does Nash have on the Suns’ offense and defense?
-Is Nash the main reason why the Suns are winning despite Stoudemire’s injury? And if I do think that Nash was the reason, then why?
-Is he the best player on the team? And if so why is he the best player on the team?

This isn’t too much to ask. In fact it is a necessary part of making an argument: the ability to ask questions, and provide evidence that would most effectively answer the questions. But I rarely saw any of this from Nash’s MVP supporters; instead I read articles that relied solely on those aforementioned groundless statements. It seemed as if knowledge was irrelevant to their “arguments” for Nash being the MVP.

That is the exact reason why I’m so disappointed because these journalists are so called experts, but they refuse to analyze every faucet of the game; something that experts are supposed to do. If somebody thinks that Nash is the MVP, that isn’t so much a problem as long as you have evidence to support your proclamation. I won’t agree with your opinion, but you will have my respect because it at least shows that you are making an honest effort to understanding the game.

To be quite honest I’m beginning to care to less and less about these awards. Why should I care about an award that is handed out by people who won’t take the time to research and determine who the MVP truly is? Well if most (but not all) of the major basketball writers will not do this then I won’t care about their opinion. Instead if I want to know who the MVP is, I research for myself or I’ll read the articles of noted APBRmetricians like Kevin Pelton and John Hollinger.

Do I always agree with Pelton’s or Hollinger’s opinions? Absolutely not, but when I read their articles I know that they will create a reasoned argument and have evidence to suggest why their ideas are correct. I didn’t agree with Pelton when he said that Nash was Phoenix’s MVP candidate in 2005; but at least he proved that Marion and Stoudemire were heavily dependant on Nash for an assist.

Likewise I’m not necessarily in agreement with Hollinger’s claim that Chris Paul’s rookie season being superior to Magic Johnson’s rookie season, but he did make a reasoned and good case to suggest why Paul is better than Johnson, and he didn’t succumb to narrow logic (i.e. “Magic Johnson was better than Chris Paul as a rookie because Magic Johnson was a legend and Chris Paul is not”). I know they respect the reader enough to make a good and balanced argument and if they will say some player is the MVP, I’ll pay attention because I respect their journalistic opinion.

So in the end; why should I care about the MVP award? It is just an award handed out by a group of people whose opinion is as valid as any internet blogger or statistical analyst. Why should I care about the significance about an award that is seemingly given out to the best story instead of the best player? I shouldn’t and that is why I’ll make a good effort not to care when the award is announced next year.

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 02:48 AM
I'll let Anthony Coleman, with all his mental acuity, analyze the "faucets" of the game.

Meantime, I'll be happy observing the facets.

FreshJive
01-13-2007, 02:52 AM
Such deep questions

-How does Nash make his teammates better?
Ummm he passes them the ball when they are standing under the rim, while they are flying towards the rim, and when they are standing wide open because he drew all the attention of the defense.
-Why are the Suns a title contender?
Because they win alot
-What effect does Nash have on the Suns’ offense and defense?
He makes the offense score alot and makes their defense worse.
-Is Nash the main reason why the Suns are winning despite Stoudemire’s injury? yes
And if I do think that Nash was the reason, then why? Becase he is thier best player
-Is he the best player on the team? yes
And if so why is he the best player on the team? He is the best offensive player on a team that relys on offense to win.

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 02:57 AM
Such deep questions

-How does Nash make his teammates better?
Ummm he passes them the ball when they are standing under the rim, while they are flying towards the rim, and when they are standing wide open because he drew all the attention of the defense.
-Why are the Suns a title contender?
Because they win alot
-What effect does Nash have on the Suns’ offense and defense?
He makes the offense score alot and makes their defense worse.
-Is Nash the main reason why the Suns are winning despite Stoudemire’s injury? yes
And if I do think that Nash was the reason, then why? Becase he is thier best player
-Is he the best player on the team? yes
And if so why is he the best player on the team? He is the best offensive player on a team that relys on offense to win.

You just misssed the entire point of the argument. It's that you gotta have some evidence for your argument. In fact, you are kinda proving the point he was trying to make by spewing the same cliches without any real evidence or proof (kind of like the rest of the media does). Steve Nash won because he was the best story not the best player.

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 03:09 AM
Here's an interesting post from the one thread that I posted a little bit earlier. It's on page 5 of the thread. If you are a stats junkie, you might enjoy. In other words, most won't give a rat's behind. But I still find it interesting nonetheless.

If there's one thing I dislike about PER, it's that it doesn't mean anything; it fails to have the "power of language," as Bill James once said. Its units are not in points or wins; in fact, I'm not sure I could define what unit it actually is measuring. So I can understand skepticism toward an argument based solely on PER, a stat that makes a lot of assumptions (i.e., linear weights can apply to basketball) and a stat that doesn't even correlate well to winning (the Seattle SuperSonics went 35-47, but had a team PER of above 15.00 because their ghastly defense wasn't taken into account in the formula).

So, let's look at other methods. Dean Oliver's work is as cutting-edge as possible (given traditional statistics to work with), and I believe quantifies the effect of teamwork as well as any formula using those statistics can, so we should start there. In terms of offensive ratings, Nash's 121 pprod/100 poss easily beats D-Wade and LeBron's 115, and Kobe's 114. But he lags behind Billups and Nowitzki, who posted 127 and 123, respectively.

Of course, offensive efficiency is only one-half of the equation; you can have the highest offensive rating in the world, but it won't matter if you can't create shots -- for yourself, and others. We'll simplify possessions by looking at Usage Rate: Nash's Usage was 23.4 poss/40, a number dwarfed by Bryant's 35.3, James' 31.4, Wade's 30.1, and Nowitzki's 27.5... only Billups (also 23.4) was even with Nash among the MVP contenders.

Putting the two factors together to form a rough sketch of points produced/40 minutes, we arrive at:
Code:

Player ORtg Usage Est. PProd/40
-----------------------------------------------
Nash 121 23.4 28.31
James 115 31.4 36.11
Bryant 114 35.3 40.24
Wade 115 30.1 34.62
Nowitzki 123 27.5 33.83
Billups 127 23.4 29.72
-----------------------------------------------

Nash can't hold a candle to these guys in terms of points produced per 40 minutes. Remember as well that the PProd formula accounts for Nash's passing, and any other teamwork that he may have added to the Suns.

The gap widens when we consider minutes played. In order to be truly "most valuable", you can't be sitting on the bench, whether due to a coach's decision or an injury. Nash played 2801 minutes this season, the second-most he's ever played in a campaign. Too bad James played 3361 minutes, Kobe 3273, Dirk 3086, Wade 2897, and Billups 2928. When we account for playing time with Pts Over Replacement, Nash gets creamed:
Code:
Player Est. PPd/40 Minutes VORP
-----------------------------------------------
Nash 28.31 2801 1234.5
James 36.11 3361 2136.8
Bryant 40.24 3273 2418.7
Wade 34.62 2897 1733.9
Nowitzki 33.83 3086 1786.0
Billups 29.72 2928 1393.7
-----------------------------------------------
(Assumes a replacement level of 2/3 the lg. average Pts/Min)


Well, what if those ballhogs with high usages were hurting the team with their frequent hoists? Well, let's compare the players' efficiencies to their teams'; if their individual per-possession efficiency is lower than their teammates', they should have shot less.
Code:
Player ORtg Team ORtg
-----------------------------------------------
Nash 121 112
James 115 108
Bryant 114 109
Wade 115 109
Nowitzki 123 112
Billups 127 111
-----------------------------------------------


I'm pretty sure none of these guys were dragging down their teammates.

Oh, but we've only covered offense so far -- defensively, Nash looks even worse. Let's begin with DeanO's defensive ratings, which (while flawed) can give us a basic outline of defensive performance:
Code:
Player DRtg Team DRtg
-----------------------------------------------
Nash 109 106
James 104 105
Bryant 105 106
Wade 103 104
Nowitzki 103 105
Billups 107 103
-----------------------------------------------

Aside from Billups, Nash is the only player to actually hurt his team on defense, according to this metric. But the metric is flawed, so let's look at some of 82games' data. I promised I wouldn't drag PER into the discussion... but I lied:
Code:
Player Opp. Prod
-----------------------------------------------
Nash 15.3
James 12.6
Bryant 14.1
Wade 14.6
Nowitzki 17.0
Billups 12.9
-----------------------------------------------


Nash acquits himself better here, but he's still sub-par. Still, counterpart production has flaws as well; let's look at each individual's impact on their team's defense:
Code:
Team Def. Rtg
Player On Court Off Court +/-
-----------------------------------------------
Nash 106.4 107.2 -0.8
James 107.2 104.1 +3.2
Bryant 107.8 101.2 +6.5
Wade 105.2 107.1 -1.9
Nowitzki 106.6 103.3 +3.3
Billups 103.4 105.1 -1.7
-----------------------------------------------

Okay, Nash looks even a little better here. Still, given the conflicting evidence we've seen on Nash's defense, we must say that he is merely average at best -- and that's statistically speaking, not scouting. Scouts would say that he's... um, not very good. Either way, Nash's defense doesn't make up for the gap between himself and the other candidates on offense.

But what if individual statistics missed something? After all, Nash's value is supposedly in his ability to control the flow of the game, to make his teammates better... Okay, let's look at overall +/- ratings:
Code:
On/Off Court
Player Net +/-
-----------------------------------------------
Nash +8.8
James +11.0
Bryant +12.7
Wade +15.8
Nowitzki +8.5
Billups +11.5
-----------------------------------------------


Have the Nash defenders given up yet? Nash isn't the MVP -- not even close. On all counts, somebody out there has played better than him, and more than him as well.

Oh, and as a parting stat:
Code:
Player PER
-----------------------------------------------
Nash 23.23
James 28.01
Bryant 27.93
Wade 27.65
Nowitzki 28.12
Billups 23.37
-----------------------------------------------

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 03:09 AM
FIN, how are they cliches? His new teammates in Phoenix got demonstrably better when Nash arrived. Just about every one of them, and many of them in a big way. I'm talking staistically. Now, to explain how they got staistically better because of Nash playing with them is a bit like explaining how Leonardo painted the Sistine Chapel. The works speak for themselves.

What type of answers do you want for these questions? If you can't use statistics, what can you use?

It is worth noting that most of the guys Nash played with in Dallas in '04 treaded water or got worse offensively, not playing with Nash anymore.

But again, if not statistics, then what?

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 03:13 AM
Putting the two factors together to form a rough sketch of points produced/40 minutes, we arrive at:
Code:

Player ORtg Usage Est. PProd/40
-----------------------------------------------
Nash 121 23.4 28.31
James 115 31.4 36.11
Bryant 114 35.3 40.24
Wade 115 30.1 34.62
Nowitzki 123 27.5 33.83
Billups 127 23.4 29.72
-----------------------------------------------

Nash can't hold a candle to these guys in terms of points produced per 40 minutes. Remember as well that the PProd formula accounts for Nash's passing, and any other teamwork that he may have added to the Suns. Before I will listen to this yahoo any further, I wanna see him apply the same code to every member of the team and make sure the team totals add up. Something tells me they won't.

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 03:16 AM
FIN, how are they cliches? His new teammates in Phoenix got demonstrably better when Nash arrived. Just about every one of them, and many of them in a big way. I'm talking staistically. Now, to explain how they got staistically better because of Nash playing with them is a bit like explaining how Leonardo painted the Sistine Chapel. The works speak for themselves.

What type of answers do you want for these questions? If you can't use statistics, what can you use?

It is worth noting that most of the guys Nash played with in Dallas in '04 treaded water or got worse offensively, not playing with Nash anymore.

But again, if not statistics, then what?

They are cliches because it's way overused and when you break it down, it's not necessarily accurate. When you throw out statistics, you gotta understand what they say. You can throw out all the statistics you want, but what does it say man? It's like me saying China has the 4th highest GDP in world. Does that mean the citizens of China are wealthy? Heck, no. So what if the players improved when Nash got there. Well, considering the players were very young and had made big strides the season before, I don't think Nash's arrival is the only explanation for their improvement. But if you want statistics read the post I made just seconds before your post.

I guess when it comes right down to it, you have to use valid statistics. Statistics that can't be easily explained away. I haven't seen a ton of those from the Nash for MVP camp. Instead I just hear "he makes his teammates" better and stuff like that. And when I do hear statistics. It's the fact that he has a lot of assists. Well, he's playing for a team that is going to inflate any point guard's assist numbers. So what?

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 03:17 AM
Before I will listen to this yahoo any further, I wanna see him apply the same code to every member of the team and make sure the team totals add up. Something tells me they won't.

Did you read the whole post? He talks about the team in general in certain parts. But I don't know the guy, I just stumbled upon the thread so I guess you have an easy out here.

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 03:48 AM
So what if the players improved when Nash got there. Well, considering the players were very young and had made big strides the season before, I don't think Nash's arrival is the only explanation for their improvement.Was Howard a young player the year before Nash left? Daniels? Nowitzki, even? What happened to those guy's stats?

The truth is that they treaded water, or declined, when they didn't play with Nash the following season.

Gotta factor it all, m'friend, not just the arguments that make your side look better.

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 03:50 AM
Did you read the whole post? He talks about the team in general in certain parts. But I don't know the guy, I just stumbled upon the thread so I guess you have an easy out here.Yeah, I read the whole post. Besides the fact that I think he is taking extreme liberties with his very first "statistical proof," I think he's also barking up the wrong tree. He's taking the wrong approach toward determining whether someone is MVP-worthy or not. Why doesn't he just start and end at the place he ends (PER), and save us all the boring read?

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 03:57 AM
I tell you what. You think Skip Bayliss has an interesting take, how's this for an interesting take...

You know how a lot of people say that Nash was holding Nowitzki back? How Nash was the security blanket and Dirk needed to finally step up and be the man and all that?

Well what about this? What if Dirk was holding Nash back? What if Nash was, all along, a playmaker at heart and needed guys around him who could finish his plays?

Maybe Dirk was a playmaker, too, and needed the ball in his hands. See, that's what I mean. It may well be the case that these are the two most talented basketball players on the planet.

What an embarrassment of riches we once had on this team!!

Five-ofan
01-13-2007, 12:31 PM
Was Howard a young player the year before Nash left? Daniels? Nowitzki, even? What happened to those guy's stats?

The truth is that they treaded water, or declined, when they didn't play with Nash the following season.

Gotta factor it all, m'friend, not just the arguments that make your side look better.
really? Dirk treaded water? Chum, just stop making stuff up. These are dirks numbers in his last year with nash and his first year without him. tell me how he "treaded water"

last year with nash
Ppg RPg APG SPG BPG FG FT
21.8 8.7 2.7 1.2 1.4 46% 34%
First year without nash
26.1 9.7 3.1 1.2 1.5 46% 40%

How about josh? His scoring went up 4, and he shot 4.5% higher. big jumps in both cats. his rebounds and steals went up 2. So you have the two players you used to say they treaded water or declined who both got signifigantly better. I know the comeback to this and it is EXACTLY my point.(the comeback is that the year previous to nash leaving was flawed because of the antwins) Your right it was. You know the point that proves? That the system you choose to run and the other players on the team do matter even if you have your beloved steve nash.

I want to point something out. I dont dislike stevie at all. I hold absolutely no ill will toward him for leaving. The suns showed tremendous interest in him and from what i remember reading the mavs offer was, 25 million extra dollars. Is 40 million alot of money? Yes. Would i be absolutely thrilled with it? Yes. Would i turn down 40 because i was offered 65 by a team that seemed more interested? yes. So since i would have done the same thing it just doesnt bother me and stevie was my second favorite player when he was a mav. I dont go from players being my favorites to hating them just because they end up on another team. Hes no longer my second favorite player overall,(that would be devin harris) but I still like little stevie.

dirno2000
01-13-2007, 01:22 PM
More relevant analysis from 82games.com's Kevin Pelton. It was written on 2/13/06

-----------------------------------------------

A couple of weeks ago, as I looked to investigate the value of Kobe Bryant, I posted a chart that showed the five NBA players who had the most positive impact on their team's offense when on the court this season, a group topped by Bryant. Conspicuous in his absence was Phoenix Suns guard Steve Nash, who actually rates as surprisingly average by this measure this season, improving the Suns offense by just 4.3 points per 100 possessions.

Still, there is ample statistical evidence to show Nash's brilliance on offense. Again looking at difference in Offensive Rating with and without a player on the court, Nash led the league in 2004-05, with the Suns scoring 17.6 more points per 100 possessions with Nash. Nash has also led from his point-guard position the three greatest offenses since the NBA began tracking turnovers (2003-04 Dallas, 2004-05 Phoenix and 2002-03 Dallas), as measured by differential between the team's Offensive Rating and league average. Here is how I have them, defining possessions as .96*(FGA + (.44*FTA) - OR + TO):

Team Year ORtg League Diff
--------------------------------------
Dallas 2003-04 114.1 104.2 9.9
Phoenix 2004-05 116.6 107.4 9.2
Dallas 2001-02 114.0 105.8 8.2
Denver 1981-82 116.3 108.5 7.8
Chicago 1996-97 115.8 108.0 7.8
Dallas 2002-03 112.7 104.9 7.8

Of course, Nash has had some very talented teammates on those fine offensive squads, including All-Stars Dirk Nowitzki, Shawn Marion and Amaré Stoudemire. The question of the "real MVP" of the Suns has been hotly contested in APBRmetrics circles over the last year.

A year ago, Stoudemire, who finished fourth in the NBA in John Hollinger's PER rating, was the popular pick amongst the statistically-inclined, and it was widely speculated in the stats community that Stoudemire's microfracture knee surgery during last fall's training camp would demonstrate his true value. With the Suns on pace to win 54 games and the Pacific Division without Stoudemire, that argument has fallen by the wayside.

Camps are already beginning to form for this year's MVP debate, with a group of media members, led by ESPN.com's Marc Stein, touting Nash for a second consecutive honor. Meanwhile, many APBRmetricians are pointing to All-Star Shawn Marion as Phoenix's new "real MVP."

The case for Nash rests largely on his ability to make his teammates better. And while this ability is largely regarded as an intangible, the analysis of Bryant's teammates performance demonstrated that it can in fact be a very real statistical effect. As a result, it seems appropriate to subject Nash to the same scrutiny.

What I've done is break down each player who played extensively with and without Nash in Phoenix the last two seasons (minimum 250 minutes with and without last year, 150 this year); we'll look at them player-by-player:

Leandro Barbosa

0506 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 111.0 .610 9.0 .267
w/o 101.8 .574 11.4 .300
-----------------------------------
Diff +9.2 +.036 -2.4 -.033

Quickly, "Rating" is points scored divided by possessions used times 100, with possessions defined here as FGA + (.44*FTA) + TO, ignoring offensive rebounds. True Shooting Percentage (TS%) is points divided by scoring possessions times two, the best measure of scoring efficiency. Turnover Rate (TORate) is turnovers divided by possessions (multiplied by 100), and FTA/FGA is, naturally, free-throw attempts per field-goal attempt.

Barbosa has been on fire this season with or without Nash, but has been slightly more efficient with fewer ballhandling responsibilities. (If you're wondering why no 2004-05 stats, the reason is that Nash and Barbosa rarely played together -- just 130 minutes all season.)

Raja Bell

0506 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 104.0 .559 7.0 .163
w/o 98.2 .606 18.9 .123
-----------------------------------
Diff +5.8 -.046 -11.9 +.040

In a bit of a surprise, Bell has actually shot the ball worse when Nash is on the floor this season. He's been strictly a catch-and-shoot player with Nash, rarely turning the ball over, which is why his overall Offensive Rating is still higher with Nash.

Boris Diaw

0506 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 90.1 .528 14.7 .243
w/o 87.3 .565 22.7 .376
-----------------------------------
Diff +2.8 -.037 -8.0 -.134

Because Diaw has taken such a dramatic step forward this season and is a leading candidate for Most Improved Player, there has been a school of thought that Nash has made him better. Not really so, however; Diaw is taking the ball more to the rack when Nash is on the bench, leading to more free-throw attempts and a better True Shooting Percentage. It has also meant more turnovers, however. The credit for Diaw's breakout season has to go to him, Bryan Colangelo and Mike D'Antoni and his coaching staff, which moved Diaw up front after he floundered as a guard in Atlanta.

Eddie House

0506 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 104.6 .565 7.5 .059
w/o 92.6 .514 9.9 .058
-----------------------------------
Diff +12.0 +.051 -2.5 +.001

House is another player having the best season of his career after joining the Suns, and in this case Nash definitely deserves a good deal of the credit; House has been inefficient as he was through the first four years of his career when Nash has been on the bench.

Steven Hunter

0405 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 110.7 .622 11.0 .709
w/o 96.2 .568 15.3 .777
-----------------------------------
Diff +14.5 +.054 -4.3 -.067

Hunter probably owes Nash some money from the not-inconsiderable contract he signed with Philadelphia last summer as a free agent. Hunter has always been a high-percentage shooter and shot 59.2% from the field even when Nash was on the bench last season. But the 63.2% he shot with Nash pushed his shooting percentage even further into the stratosphere. This year, Hunter is down all the way to 51.4% from the field and has languished on the bench lately with the 76ers, who tried to trade him to the Hornets before the deal fell through because of injury concerns.

Jim Jackson

0405 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 118.7 .672 11.7 .068
w/o 81.7 .501 18.5 .093
-----------------------------------
Diff +36.9 +.171 -6.8 -.025

0506 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 50.9 .291 12.7 .067
w/o 65.6 .424 22.6 .132
-----------------------------------
Diff -14.7 -.132 -9.9 -.066

Jackson shot the lights out alongside Nash last season in what looks suspiciously like his last NBA hurrah. He hasn't been able to make a shot in any situation this year, and sample size more than anything else probably accounts for the fact that he's done worse with Nash this year.

Casey Jacobsen

0405 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 86.7 .497 12.8 .358
w/o 107.2 .614 12.8 .413
-----------------------------------
Diff -20.5 -.117 0.0 -.055

Jacobsen was the one Suns regular who did not see his Offensive Rating improve with Nash on the court last season, and I must say I'm genuinely mystified as to why. He wasn't just standing around on the perimeter, as his rate of free-throw attempts testifies, so I don't get it. Jacobsen had a genuinely bizarre statistical season in 2004-05 that continued in New Orleans; he managed to be a perimeter gunner who also got to the free-throw line as regularly as any guard in the league. He's now playing for Tau Ceramica in Spain alongside Peja Drobnjak, San Antonio draft pick Luis Scola, Toronto draft pick Roko Ukic and top prospect Tiago Splitter, amongst others.

Joe Johnson

0405 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 109.1 .594 8.1 .143
w/o 84.8 .495 14.4 .169
-----------------------------------
Diff +24.4 +.098 -6.8 -.025

Johnson benefited from Nash's presence as much as anyone a season ago, going from 43.0% from the field and 30.5% from downtown to 46.1% and 47.8%, respectively. That's made it all the more impressive that Johnson is playing so well in Atlanta now that he's being forced to create almost all of his own offense. His 3-point percentage has come back down to pre-Nash levels, but his field-goal percentage has improved again.

James Jones

0506 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 103.0 .539 4.5 .265
w/o 116.7 .616 5.4 .169
-----------------------------------
Diff -13.6 -.077 -0.9 +.096

Jones is another jump-shooting specialist who you'd figure to benefit from playing with Nash, but that hasn't been the case thus far.

Shawn Marion

0405 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 105.0 .563 6.7 .198
w/o 94.9 .539 12.0 .261
-----------------------------------
Diff +10.1 +.024 -5.3 -.063

0506 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 104.7 .564 7.1 .206
w/o 112.9 .609 7.3 .226
-----------------------------------
Diff -8.2 -.045 -0.2 -.020

Marion is one of the more interesting players to look at in that the "Nash Effect," so to speak, has reversed itself this year. What I suspect is that there might be a couple of opposing issues at play here. One is that Marion, moreso than almost any swingman who scores as much as he does, is dependent on being set up; 77% of his shots this season have been assisted on. At the same time, Marion is much more effective when he uses his athleticism than spotting up on the perimeter, which he's often limited to alongside Nash, especially now that most of the Suns' pick-and-rolls with forwards are going through Diaw. It's also been theorized that we could be seeing a little "garbage-time" factor here; Nash doesn't play as many minutes in blowouts as Marion does to protect his back. This one deserves more observation.

Quentin Richardson

0405 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 100.2 .536 6.4 .162
w/o 87.0 .495 12.1 .208
-----------------------------------
Diff +13.3 +.041 -5.6 -.046

Pretty standard stuff here. Richardson lived on the perimeter last season and feasted on the open looks Nash created. Take Nash away from Richardson and have his back cause more problems and the result is a 31.9% 3-point percentage this season.

Amaré Stoudemire

0405 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 115.3 .634 9.1 .603
w/o 100.8 .576 12.5 .577
0304 91.9 .536 14.4 .503
-----------------------------------
Diff +14.6 +.058 -3.4 +.026

Exhibit A in the case that Nash makes his teammates better. I've thrown in Stoudemire's 2003-04 numbers in these same categories to demonstrate that he improved independent of Nash, which we would expect from a 22-year-old preps product who made strides within the 2003-04 season. However, the magnitude of Stoudemire's improvement in two-point percentage (from 47.7% to 56.4%) was basically unprecedented. It might not even have been the area where Nash most helped Stoudemire; by putting him in positions where he was able to catch and shoot (dunk, basically), Nash slashed Stoudemire's turnover rate, which went from one of the worst in the league amongst big men to one of the best. The Suns' shooters deserve credit for this too, because opposing defenses weren't able to sag into the paint to help on Stoudemire for fear of giving up a 3.

An 82games study last year showed Stoudemire, along with Marion, was one of the NBA players most dependent on a single teammate (Nash, natch) for an assist. How much credit does Nash deserve for Stoudemire going from promising youngster to MVP candidate? A lot, I would say.

Kurt Thomas

0506 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 97.3 .548 11.2 .239
w/o 59.2 .354 16.3 .243
-----------------------------------
Diff +38.1 +.194 -5.1 -.004

Thomas has only played 170 minutes with Nash on the bench, so this comparison might not meet the standards for statistical significance. Suffice it to say that Thomas has been pretty bad when he hasn't been paired with Nash, shooting 11-for-37 from the field (29.7%).

That wraps up the Suns regulars the last two seasons, but there's one other player I'd like to take at: Nowitzki. One of the counter-points frequently offered to the Nash makes his teammates better line of thinking is that it is disproved by Nowitzki's career season the year after Nash's departure. Well, take a look at the numbers from 2003-04:

Dirk Nowitzki

0304 Rating TS% TORate FTA/FGA
-----------------------------------
with 105.7 .571 7.5 .318
w/o 96.2 .535 10.2 .338
-----------------------------------
Diff +9.5 +.036 -2.6 -.020

Nowitzki had a relatively weak 2003-04 season, but that was despite Nash helping him out. Now what I might agree with is that, in a way, Nash's presence kept the Mavericks from fully taking advantage of Nowitzki's ability to create his own shot. In 2003-04, Nowitzki was assisted on 72% of his baskets; last year, that dropped all the way to 53%.

"His whole style of play is so much more aggressive," Mavericks lead assistant Del Harris told author David Friedman last spring, explaining Nowitzki's improvement. "Last year he depended on Steve for a lot of pick-and-rolls. This year he doesn’t get his points off of pick-and-roll that much. He gets them through various play actions, posting and driving the ball."

The other issue that is forgotten when discussing Nowitzki's 2004-05 season is that virtually every high scorer in the league was better in 2004-05 than 2003-04 because of the NBA's new interpretation of rules prohibiting handchecking. I recently wrote about this for SI.com, and Nowitzki benefited almost as much as the speedy guards who are the stereotypical beneficiaries. Very few big men have the footspeed to contain Nowitzki on the perimeter, and he went from attempting 5.5 free throws per game in 2003-04 to 9.1 in 2004-05. I strongly suspect this would have happened even had Nash re-signed in Dallas.

If we look at all these different players, some very clear patterns emerge. For the most part, players tend to shoot better when Nash is on the court. The more important and more subtle effect, however, is that players slashed their turnover rate. (No regular improved their turnover rate alongside Nash the last two seasons; Jacobsen's was unchanged.) As I touched on in the discussion of Stoudemire, the reason for this is that Nash delivers the ball to players in position to shoot and without them having to do virtually any work for their shot besides getting open, as opposed to shooting off of a dribble or two.

If there is a common thread amongst Nash's recent teams, besides their ultra-efficient offenses, it is that they rarely if ever turn the ball over. The 2002-03 and 2003-04 Mavericks recorded the two lowest turnover rates since the league began tracking turnovers in 1973-74, and the 2001-02 incarnation ranks fourth. (The 2004-05 Suns are also in the top 25 of all time.)

What is interesting about this is that Nash is not particularly outstanding at avoiding turnovers. He averaged 3.3 turnovers per game last season to rank ninth in the NBA, and in Hollinger's Turnover Rate statistic (different from the one I calculated above because assists are included in the denominator, which helps Nash), he ranked a dismal 43rd amongst point guards. So Nash's teams are so good at avoiding turnovers not because he is good at avoiding turnovers, but because he keeps his teammates from committing them.

The other trend, one that was somewhat surprising to me, is that players tend to get to the free-throw line more often when Nash is on the bench. This makes sense when you think about it; all that creating offense that leads to turnovers also forces defenses to foul, and wing players tend to spend more time on the perimeter alongside Nash, spotting up for 3s.

As far as 2004-05 goes, the case for Nash making his teammates better is relatively unimpeachable. All four Suns starters and the team's top two reserves improved their offensive efficiency with Nash, four of them by at least 10 points per 100 possessions. This isn't, as it is for Bryant, a case of taking below-average teammates and improving them. Instead, Nash was doing this with an All-Star in Marion, a Rookie of the Year in Stoudemire, and promising young players in Johnson and Richardson. Making those guys better is pretty impressive.

How much of that is Barbosa? Conventional wisdom would say a lot. I don't think Barbosa is nearly as bad as he was made out to be last year, and nobody pointed out he actually played pretty well when Nash missed a second series of games last February, averaging 15.3 points as the Suns went 2-1. I think the issue was that the Suns forced him to try to be Nash when Nash was out of the game, and what backup guard in the league could do that?

Last year, the Suns' bench seemed to exist mostly to fill in for the starters; Hunter was Stoudemire-lite in the middle, while Jackson could spread the floor like Johnson and Richardson. Nobody could replace Nash and Marion. This year, Phoenix's second unit has its own identity. If anything, with the 6-8 Diaw often playing center, it's smaller and even more versatile than the Suns existing lineup. Having three players in the lineup with the ability to create for themselves and others (House, Barbosa and Diaw) has kept the open shots coming even when Nash is resting.

Additionally, defenses have put more pressure on Nash to score this season, and he struggled a bit with that during November and December, when he averaged 11.6 assists per 40 minutes -- still outstanding, but not quite his unreal 13.4 per 40 minutes from last season. Nash has struck a better balance over thee last month and a half, and as his plus-minus has improved, so too, presumably, has the difference in his teammates' performance with him on the floor.

Nash is again having a great season, but I can't justify putting him in the MVP discussion. To me, the Suns' surprising success this year -- and I'll confess to thinking they were in for a drop-off even had Stoudemire remained healthy -- is much more a testament tto the genius and creativity of D'Antoni and Colangelo in adding depth and improving the Suns' defense than it is to Nash's ability to make others better.

That said, given Nash's role in the fine seasons enjoyed in 2004-05 by Marion and particularly Stoudemire, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that Nash got the credit as the most valuable member of this terrific trio.

rmacomic
01-13-2007, 01:41 PM
I don't know why you guys are arguing this. Dirk has come out and said he doesn't care about the MVP, all he wants is the championship. Also Nash is a one sided player who imho didn't deserve either awards. Dirk has worked to improve all aspects of his game, Nash is still an offense only player. If you think offense is that great, ask Peyton Manning how well that works out in getting you to a championship.:)

dude1394
01-13-2007, 02:07 PM
Good stuff dirno...

To answer your question rmacomic...dirk can say he doesn't care until he's blue in the face but it would be an honor. He deserves this honor and should have had it last year. If he does not get it this year it will CONTINUE to be a shame.

Five-ofan
01-13-2007, 02:09 PM
I don't know why you guys are arguing this. Dirk has come out and said he doesn't care about the MVP, all he wants is the championship. Also Nash is a one sided player who imho didn't deserve either awards. Dirk has worked to improve all aspects of his game, Nash is still an offense only player. If you think offense is that great, ask Peyton Manning how well that works out in getting you to a championship.:)
because its a message board and thats what we do.

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 02:12 PM
Was Howard a young player the year before Nash left? Daniels? Nowitzki, even? What happened to those guy's stats?

The truth is that they treaded water, or declined, when they didn't play with Nash the following season.

Gotta factor it all, m'friend, not just the arguments that make your side look better.

As 5-0 pointed out, I'm not sure how Dirk and Josh really treaded water. Both made big improvements. As for Daniels, I think his problems had to do more with injuries and the switch from a coach that loved him to a coach that didn't care for him. Anything else I forgot to factor?

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 02:23 PM
I tell you what. You think Skip Bayliss has an interesting take, how's this for an interesting take...

You know how a lot of people say that Nash was holding Nowitzki back? How Nash was the security blanket and Dirk needed to finally step up and be the man and all that?

Well what about this? What if Dirk was holding Nash back? What if Nash was, all along, a playmaker at heart and needed guys around him who could finish his plays?

Maybe Dirk was a playmaker, too, and needed the ball in his hands. See, that's what I mean. It may well be the case that these are the two most talented basketball players on the planet.

What an embarrassment of riches we once had on this team!!

There's no doubt that Nash right now plays in the best system for his stats (better than Dallas even). He gets to run fast break all the time, and he plays with two of the best finishers on the planet (Amare and Marion). Both are strong, athletic freaks who have the ability to dunk it on a lot of innocent victims. With those two Nash gets a couple opportunities a game to throw it to them while there are cutting for a dunk/alley oop for a fairly easy assist opportunity. He wouldn't get that opportunity with a guy like Dirk. We all know Dirk likes to isolate on that elbow, throw a few fakes, spin, and shoot, which means Nash wouldn't get credit for the assist there. Nash would still have pretty high assist numbers wherever he goes, but he wouldn't be averaging quite as much as with the Suns.

Nash is the perfect fit for the Phoenix system, and deserves a lot of credit for making it go. With that being said, he's only one part of many. If some of those other parts in Phoenix were missing, like the strong, athletic finishers and the fast paced style, wouldn't Phoenix be in some trouble as well? Don't those other parts in the Phoenix system (like Marion and D'antoni) deserve some of the credit too? Yet it pretty much all goes to Nash. I don't get that.

Five-ofan
01-13-2007, 04:51 PM
btw why does them winning 54 without amare rule him out as far as being the mvp of the suns? I dont think he is but that doesnt mean anything.

chumdawg
01-13-2007, 07:41 PM
This is what I meant. Offensive ratings from '04 to '05:


2003-04 2004-05 Change
Amare Stoudemire 102 121 +19
Steven Hunter 99 116 +17
Joe Johnson 100 113 +13
Shawn Marion 107 116 +9
Jim Jackson 101 109 +8
Leandro Barbosa 100 107 +7
Quentin Richardson 101 108 +7



2003-04 2004-05 Change
Dirk Nowitzki 116 118 +2
Josh Howard 107 108 +1
Michael Finley 115 111 -4
Antoine Walker 101 94 -7
Marquis Daniels 115 101 -14
Antawn Jamison 122 108 -14

FINtastic
01-13-2007, 07:52 PM
Out of curiosity, where did you get those offensive ratings from and what factors do they take into consideration?

WurzburgBorn
01-13-2007, 08:38 PM
chumpdawg posted
His new teammates in Phoenix got demonstrably better when Nash arrived. Just about every one of them, and many of them in a big way. I'm talking staistically. Now, to explain how they got staistically better because of Nash playing with them is a bit like explaining how Leonardo painted the Sistine Chapel. The works speak for themselves.

Dirk for NBA MVP; Nash for MVP of the Italian league

RePLAY
01-13-2007, 08:51 PM
Last yeat Dirk should have won...this year Kobe is the frontrunner. His team of nobody's are actually going pretty good.

Five-ofan
01-13-2007, 08:52 PM
Last yeat Dirk should have won...this year Kobe is the frontrunner. His team of nobody's are actually going pretty good.
its not a team of nobodys is the problem. He is up there though.

dude1394
01-13-2007, 09:49 PM
This is what I meant. Offensive ratings from '04 to '05:


2003-04 2004-05 Change
Amare Stoudemire 102 121 +19
Steven Hunter 99 116 +17
Joe Johnson 100 113 +13
Shawn Marion 107 116 +9
Jim Jackson 101 109 +8
Leandro Barbosa 100 107 +7
Quentin Richardson 101 108 +7



2003-04 2004-05 Change
Dirk Nowitzki 116 118 +2
Josh Howard 107 108 +1
Michael Finley 115 111 -4
Antoine Walker 101 94 -7
Marquis Daniels 115 101 -14
Antawn Jamison 122 108 -14

I think it was also the first full year of d'antoni's system as well. He took over the team in january of the 02-03 season. Until mid-january they rarely scored 100 points. So I think the implementation of Dantoni's system has something to do with it, but no doubt stevie is perfect for that job.

RePLAY
01-14-2007, 10:25 PM
its not a team of nobodys is the problem. He is up there though.

Noone expected a team with Kobe, Odom, Kwame Brown (first pick bust), Brian Cook, Sasha Vujacic, 18 year old Center Bynum, Luke Walton to have a record like thiers? No one even thought they were gonna make it to the playoffs this year. Heck with this same team, other than Brown and Bynum, they had a lottery season 2 years ago.

As for now, Kobe Bryant has been doing everything that everyone said he needs to do in order to get the MVP. Last year, he was the scoring champ, and broke LOTS of records and brought his team from the lottery to almost upsetting the Suns. This year, he is shooting less, getting more assist, and has a better record than last year thus far. If Kobe doesnt win it this year, he will NEVER win it at all.

Five-ofan
01-14-2007, 10:37 PM
Noone expected a team with Kobe, Odom, Kwame Brown (first pick bust), Brian Cook, Sasha Vujacic, 18 year old Center Bynum, Luke Walton to have a record like thiers? No one even thought they were gonna make it to the playoffs this year. Heck with this same team, other than Brown and Bynum, they had a lottery season 2 years ago.

As for now, Kobe Bryant has been doing everything that everyone said he needs to do in order to get the MVP. Last year, he was the scoring champ, and broke LOTS of records and brought his team from the lottery to almost upsetting the Suns. This year, he is shooting less, getting more assist, and has a better record than last year thus far. If Kobe doesnt win it this year, he will NEVER win it at all.

couple of things, one what records did kobe break last year? 2, because they underachieved in the past doesnt give them bonus points this year. Lamar odom is a great second option especially in the triangle. Bynum is 19 not 18 btw and he is decent. Brown is better than you make him out to be and cook is a solid shooter.

spreedom
01-15-2007, 01:34 AM
Skip Bayless is controversial for the sake of controversy.. he doesn't know a thing about sports and bases his opinions on BSPN highlight reels. What a turd.

DubOverdose
01-15-2007, 03:08 AM
Assists are vastly overrated
I could make all the great passes I want, but if I don't have people that can put the ball in the hoop, then I'm a 0 assist/game guy. However if guys can make tough shots everytime I get them the ball, I'm going to get a lot of dimes. We see it repeatedly when a player has a game full of excellent, on the money, passes, but ends the game with 2-3 assists because people aren't finishing their layups. We also see players quietly find themselves at the end of a game with 8 dimes such as Jason Terry. Devin Harris is still the better passer by far, but his assists don't reflect it since Terry's got the ball more.

RePLAY
01-15-2007, 04:29 PM
couple of things, one what records did kobe break last year? 2, because they underachieved in the past doesnt give them bonus points this year. Lamar odom is a great second option especially in the triangle. Bynum is 19 not 18 btw and he is decent. Brown is better than you make him out to be and cook is a solid shooter.

It still doesnt prove anything. Bynum is 19...ok..still not dominant. Brown is better than i make him out to be which is still crap. Cook, solid shooter...thats it, no defense and is streaky. Odom and Kobe are the only two guys on that team worth mentioning. If underachieving in the past doesnt give them bonus points this year, that what merits an MVP?

Five-ofan
01-15-2007, 04:32 PM
It still doesnt prove anything. Bynum is 19...ok..still not dominant. Brown is better than i make him out to be which is still crap. Cook, solid shooter...thats it, no defense and is streaky. Odom and Kobe are the only two guys on that team worth mentioning. If underachieving in the past doesnt give them bonus points this year, that what merits an MVP?
being a great player on a top 2 or 3 team in the nba. Like i said, because the lakers used to suck and now are good doesnt give them bonus points over a team that has been great for a while. Yes the lakers have improved but they still arent good enough that they deserve to have an mvp.

Five-ofan
01-15-2007, 08:28 PM
how in the hell does dirk not make the list for the poll on tnt tonight? this is the kind of bs that pisses me off.

Who will win the mvp
A)Nash
B)Kobe
C)Wade
D)Other

its also what makes me worry that dirk really isnt going to win it this year... I mean last year dirk was so obvious and if i remember correctly nash's vote total was pretty dominat. the media is just effing retarded.

RePLAY
01-15-2007, 11:04 PM
how in the hell does dirk not make the list for the poll on tnt tonight? this is the kind of bs that pisses me off.

Who will win the mvp
A)Nash
B)Kobe
C)Wade
D)Other

its also what makes me worry that dirk really isnt going to win it this year... I mean last year dirk was so obvious and if i remember correctly nash's vote total was pretty dominat. the media is just effing retarded.


What should get you mad is Wade is on the list....his team isnt even in the top 6 of the EAST! lol

Five-ofan
01-15-2007, 11:25 PM
What should get you mad is Wade is on the list....his team isnt even in the top 6 of the EAST! lol
that is who had me mad, i figured it out though, that was the 3 marquee players playing on tnt tonight.

RePLAY
01-15-2007, 11:47 PM
Glad to hear Steve Kerr say that the LA fans are mad cuz wade is getting a foul called with little touch fouls. They actually said it twice in the game already.

Flacolaco
01-15-2007, 11:53 PM
how in the hell does dirk not make the list for the poll on tnt tonight? this is the kind of bs that pisses me off.

Who will win the mvp
A)Nash
B)Kobe
C)Wade
D)Other

its also what makes me worry that dirk really isnt going to win it this year... I mean last year dirk was so obvious and if i remember correctly nash's vote total was pretty dominat. the media is just effing retarded.

I cant think of a single reason why TNT would do such a thing.....

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4425/060517tntbryanthlg9phlavs2.jpg