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View Full Version : Phoenix Suns @ Houston Rockets (7:30PM CST)


u2sarajevo
01-17-2007, 11:58 AM
Suns favored by only 5.5?

DubOverdose
01-17-2007, 12:12 PM
I hate how I lost all 10k vCash on the cRaptors game and now going all in for me is 50... :(

u2sarajevo
01-17-2007, 12:14 PM
I hate how I lost all 10k vCash on the cRaptors game and now going all in for me is 50... :(It's 25 for me... has been for about a month.

Just a word to the wise: DON'T EVER BET WHAT I BET BECAUSE I HAVEN'T WON IN A MONTH.

dude1394
01-17-2007, 12:40 PM
It's 25 for me... has been for about a month.

Just a word to the wise: DON'T EVER BET WHAT I BET BECAUSE I HAVEN'T WON IN A MONTH.

Okay...bet 20x you. Houston smokes 'em!! :)

Since it's not nearly as important a game as last nights, mcgrady doesn't fold like a lounge chair in the 4th quarter.

TripleDipping
01-17-2007, 03:23 PM
I'm betting on the Suns to win big. T-Mac & Co. will be tempted to run with the Suns and we all know what happens next. Stoudamire with a huge game and I have my new found vwealth.

kingmalaki
01-17-2007, 06:33 PM
Chalk up a loss for my Rockets. T-Mac will not play.

http://chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/4478078.html

u2sarajevo
01-17-2007, 06:42 PM
you mean..... my vLosses are about to come to a grinding halt?

YIPEE!!!!!!!!!

Well, I guess I should let the game be played but this is pretty much a sure thing now for Phoenix.

purplefrog
01-17-2007, 07:44 PM
No Yao... No TMac.... No win for Houston:(

It's up to Rafer Alston to lead this team to victory! Let the 3s fly!

StackAttack
01-17-2007, 08:06 PM
It's time to give some LUTHER HEAD

u2sarajevo
01-17-2007, 09:21 PM
Anyone watching this?

dude1394
01-17-2007, 09:24 PM
Houston would be so smart to trade traci'e immediately. For whatever they could get.

He doesn't make anyone around him better, won't let 'em shoot, can't stay on the court.

Of course probably no-one else wants him.

u2sarajevo
01-17-2007, 09:30 PM
I think I jinxed the Rockets..... I was thinking my vBookie bet was going to actually be lost... but since I posted above, the Rockets have gone cold and the Suns are getting into game flow.

Flacolaco
01-18-2007, 12:05 AM
The Suns scored 51 of their 100 points via 3 pointers.

Yeah that's gonna get you somewhere in the playoffs.

nashtymavsfan13
01-18-2007, 12:16 AM
If the Rox had Tmac they would have won this game.

chumdawg
01-18-2007, 12:54 AM
The Suns scored 51 of their 100 points via 3 pointers.

Yeah that's gonna get you somewhere in the playoffs.Do they move the line out for the playoffs? How far does it go out?

dude1394
01-18-2007, 02:20 AM
If the Rox had Tmac they would have won this game.

I doubt it seriously to be honest. No one else would have gotten a shot, he would have gotten tired and beat down.

dude1394
01-18-2007, 02:22 AM
The Suns scored 51 of their 100 points via 3 pointers.

Yeah that's gonna get you somewhere in the playoffs.

That is a problem with VanGundy's defensive scheme. He's so busy packing it in the paint that he gives you open jumpers. If you can hit an open shot you can beat 'em up. If you can't it's tough.

chumdawg
01-18-2007, 02:27 AM
Nash with 21 on 8-for-10, with 14 assists. Pretty otherworldly.

dude1394
01-18-2007, 02:32 AM
I just know that chums going to start posting nash highlights in mavswiki. :)

chumdawg
01-18-2007, 02:33 AM
Nope. But was he any good, or wasn't he?

fluid.forty.one
01-18-2007, 02:36 AM
Nope. But was he any good, or wasn't he?

Who cares?

chumdawg
01-18-2007, 02:49 AM
Who cares?Idiots who don't keep apprised of the league??

EDIT: I realized you asked "who cares?" Who cares would be the well-informed people who keep themselves apprised of the league. Those who don't care would be the idiots who think the world ends at their doorstep.

u2sarajevo
01-18-2007, 08:04 AM
Nash is awesome. Stoudemire is close to his old self (he claimed all that's missing now is 4 inches on his vertical leap).

They are a scary good team. The Spurs are bothersome.... but they aren't scary anymore. The Suns are.

Flacolaco
01-18-2007, 09:35 AM
What is the difference in this Suns team, and the Suns team that couldn't get past defensive minded teams in the Conference finals the last 2 years?

u2sarajevo
01-18-2007, 10:25 AM
What is the difference in this Suns team, and the Suns team that couldn't get past defensive minded teams in the Conference finals the last 2 years?I'm not saying they will get past us.

What team in the NBA right now is the toughest opponent? If the Suns aren't at or near the top of that list you are kidding yourself.

dude1394
01-18-2007, 11:15 AM
Nope. But was he any good, or wasn't he?

Oh he's always good, if not great. That sucka'.

Flacolaco
01-18-2007, 12:13 PM
I'm not saying they will get past us.

What team in the NBA right now is the toughest opponent? If the Suns aren't at or near the top of that list you are kidding yourself.

Oh theyre definitely the toughest opponent.

But its like the old saying goes: if you keep on doing what you've always done, you're gonna keep on getting what you always got.

Thats how I see the Suns.

Five-ofan
01-18-2007, 12:21 PM
Nash with 21 on 8-for-10, with 14 assists. Pretty otherworldly.
otherworldy is one hellacious exagerration especially since he gave up 27 on the other end to rafer freakin alston.

fluid.forty.one
01-18-2007, 03:33 PM
otherworldy is one hellacious exagerration especially since he gave up 27 on the other end to rafer freakin alston.

It's a good thing defense doesn't matter in the playoffs.


Oh wait...

Dirkadirkastan
01-18-2007, 03:56 PM
Idiots who don't keep apprised of the league??

EDIT: I realized you asked "who cares?" Who cares would be the well-informed people who keep themselves apprised of the league. Those who don't care would be the idiots who think the world ends at their doorstep.

Do you make a scene when other players in the league do stuff like this? Or just when Nash does it? That would constitute some serious hypocrisy if the latter were true.

Grammaton Cleric
01-18-2007, 05:12 PM
otherworldy is one hellacious exagerration especially since he gave up 27 on the other end to rafer freakin alston.

Alston was just hitting his shots. What's Nash supposed to do - punch him in the face?

I think Nash gets knocked more for not being shut down defender more than for playing no defense at all.

Against Seattle, Earl Watson and Luke Ridnour were a combined 6 for 23. Against Cleveland, Eric Snow and Damon Jones were a combined 3 for 10. Against Orlando, Jameer Nelson hit 9 of 15 for 26 points, but Arroyo was 0 for 5. Was that all Nash too?

I'm not saying that he's a great defender, but he's not as big a liability as is widely believed. You guys watched him for years - did Nash's porous defense ever cost Dallas a game?

Good defense is a team effort. Nash doesn't place a lot of emphasis on it sure, but he doesn't get lit up every night either.

Stranger
01-18-2007, 05:19 PM
You guys watched him for years - did Nash's porous defense ever cost Dallas a game?

Take a look some old box scores for playoff games against Sacramento...

dallas85
01-19-2007, 02:52 AM
Take a look some old box scores for playoff games against Sacramento...

Take a look at the box scores of Phoenix-Spurs two years ago... look at what Tim Duncan's opposite did.

dude1394
01-19-2007, 03:05 AM
Alston was just hitting his shots. What's Nash supposed to do - punch him in the face?

I think Nash gets knocked more for not being shut down defender more than for playing no defense at all.

Against Seattle, Earl Watson and Luke Ridnour were a combined 6 for 23. Against Cleveland, Eric Snow and Damon Jones were a combined 3 for 10. Against Orlando, Jameer Nelson hit 9 of 15 for 26 points, but Arroyo was 0 for 5. Was that all Nash too?

I'm not saying that he's a great defender, but he's not as big a liability as is widely believed. You guys watched him for years - did Nash's porous defense ever cost Dallas a game?

Good defense is a team effort. Nash doesn't place a lot of emphasis on it sure, but he doesn't get lit up every night either.

Lot's of games. As mentioned bibby lighting him up was expected..and delivered. Jason lights him up, everyone lights him up. He's either not that good or not that interested.

Grammaton Cleric
01-19-2007, 11:02 AM
Lot's of games. As mentioned bibby lighting him up was expected..and delivered. Jason lights him up, everyone lights him up. He's either not that good or not that interested.

But I just showed a few examples of guys who DIDN'T have good games versus Nash. Even Alston needed 25 shots to get his 29 AND he played 43 minutes to Nash's 37.

Again, I don't think Nash is even a solid defender. But if better defense came at the expense of brilliance elsewhere, I wouldn't take it.

aexchange
01-19-2007, 11:09 AM
But I just showed a few examples of guys who DIDN'T have good games versus Nash. Even Alston needed 25 shots to get his 29 AND he played 43 minutes to Nash's 37.

Again, I don't think Nash is even a solid defender. But if better defense came at the expense of brilliance elsewhere, I wouldn't take it.

is it any coincidence that nash led teams have ranked in the bottom half of the league in pts given up?

Five-ofan
01-19-2007, 11:20 AM
is it any coincidence that nash led teams have ranked in the bottom half of the league in pts given up?
no because his teams are always going to play uptempo. thats not a big deal imo and actually the suns are better defensively than most think. He does suck defensively though.

Drbio
01-19-2007, 11:21 AM
Nash is a freaking swinging gate at the top of the key. The world hasn't seen such a free pass from a human since Madonna.

dude1394
01-19-2007, 12:35 PM
But I just showed a few examples of guys who DIDN'T have good games versus Nash. Even Alston needed 25 shots to get his 29 AND he played 43 minutes to Nash's 37.

Again, I don't think Nash is even a solid defender. But if better defense came at the expense of brilliance elsewhere, I wouldn't take it.

Individual games doesn't mean squat and you know it. If you really want to make that argument, go back over 10 games or so and tell me how close they were to their average.

Grammaton Cleric
01-19-2007, 12:41 PM
is it any coincidence that nash led teams have ranked in the bottom half of the league in pts given up?

Moot when you're outscoring them by almost 9 per game on average.

As Five said, it's more of a reflection of play style.

Besides, the Suns have held 17 opponents under 100 points so far this season, which isn't nearly as good as the Mavs 30, but certainly not horrible.

Grammaton Cleric
01-19-2007, 12:53 PM
Individual games doesn't mean squat and you know it. If you really want to make that argument, go back over 10 games or so and tell me how close they were to their average.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying that Nash shut these guys down, I'm just saying that not every opposing point guard as a career night versus Nash, every time they play against him, which seems to be the concensus around here.

A lot of times, if a guy's hot, they'll put Bell or Marion on him leaving Nash with the lesser of two evils.Thereby nullifying Nash's defensive shortcomings. D'Antoni is well aware of Nash's limitations and compensates accordingly. If Nash is still left with a tough assignment and gets torched, most night we're able to overcome it anyway.

No problem.

dude1394
01-19-2007, 12:56 PM
You're missing the point. I'm not saying that Nash shut these guys down, I'm just saying that not every opposing point guard as a career night versus Nash, every time they play against him, which seems to be the concensus around here.


Sematics. The folks around here could say "nash gets the hell beat out of him 95% of the time". But that's just too hard to say.

What is YOUR point. Grade him as a defender 1-5. 1 being great 5 being bad. The consensus around here based on having watched him play for years is that he's a 5. Maybe he's changed to be a 4.5 or something, but as I said you are just arguing sematics.

He's a BAD defender.

Grammaton Cleric
01-19-2007, 03:24 PM
Sematics. The folks around here could say "nash gets the hell beat out of him 95% of the time". But that's just too hard to say.

What is YOUR point. Grade him as a defender 1-5. 1 being great 5 being bad. The consensus around here based on having watched him play for years is that he's a 5. Maybe he's changed to be a 4.5 or something, but as I said you are just arguing sematics.

He's a BAD defender.

See, I disagree with that. I think he's at LEAST a 4 using your scale... :D

My point is that

a.)The vast majority of the time, Nash's defense is not such a detriment that it causes problems for the team.

b.)The only people interested in making his defense an issue are probably rooting for another MVP candidate. Other times, it isn't even brought up.

Nash is playing at a very high level, so when he's the focus of the discussion, defense is usually brought up as "the only knock against Nash is...".

So what about Dirk? I'd label him an adequate defender on his best day. He doesn't get many steals (exactly as many as Nash at this point) and for a 7 footer, his shot-blocking is nothing special. Considering his size and taking into account his rebounding ability, I'd rate him as a 3.5.

But yet his defense is good enough to not detract from his MVP bid, while Nash's is so dismal, it should prevent him from winning?

FINtastic
01-19-2007, 03:30 PM
So what about Dirk? I'd label him an adequate defender on his best day. He doesn't get many steals (exactly as many as Nash at this point)

Wtf? He's a 7 foot power forward, he ain't supposed to be getting tons of steals. The fact that he does get as many steals as Nash doesn't help Nash's case, it hurts it. But if we are going to use this logic, why does Nash only average 0.1 blocks a game? Why don't you hold that against Nash? This is selective reasoning if I've ever seen it.

Dirk's not a shut-down defender, but if you haven't noticed he's capable of playing some pretty good defense at times. Maybe you didn't watch the Spurs game recently when Dirk more than held his own guarding Duncan in the fourth quarter. I'd say at the very least, Dirk has turned himself into an average defender.

Grammaton Cleric
01-19-2007, 03:35 PM
Sematics. The folks around here could say "nash gets the hell beat out of him 95% of the time". But that's just too hard to say.

Exactly, because it just doesn't happen. Nash doesn't get torched 95% of the time.

It's not semantical to point to the performances of opposing PG's as examples that Nash isn't the albatross you guys claim he is. He has his problems, sure. Deron Williams and Earl Boykins immediately spring to mind as far as opposing guards who just seem to have their way with him.

But even taking that into account, Nash's play on the other end is spectacular enough that the voters have overlooked his D 2 years in a row. Ultimately, theirs is the only opinion that matters.

FINtastic
01-19-2007, 03:36 PM
Considering his size and taking into account his rebounding ability, I'd rate him as a 3.5.

Um what's wrong with his rebounding ability? Dirk is 7th in the league right now in defensive rebounds per game. While that stat is a little skewed due to Dirk playing 36 minutes a night, he certainly isn't a bad rebounder.

FINtastic
01-19-2007, 03:38 PM
Exactly, because it just doesn't happen. Nash doesn't get torched 95% of the time.

He may not get torched 95% of the time, but it sure does happen a lot. I seem to remember a number of players who have had big games against Nash and I'm not even a Phoenix fan who follows the team every night.

Grammaton Cleric
01-19-2007, 03:53 PM
Wtf? He's a 7 foot power forward, he ain't supposed to be getting tons of steals. The fact that he does get as many steals as Nash doesn't help Nash's case, it hurts it. But if we are going to use this logic, why does Nash only average 0.1 blocks a game? Why don't you hold that against Nash? This is selective reasoning if I've ever seen it.

Dirk's not a shut-down defender, but if you haven't noticed he's capable of playing some pretty good defense at times. Maybe you didn't watch the Spurs game recently when Dirk more than held his own guarding Duncan in the fourth quarter. I'd say at the very least, Dirk has turned himself into an average defender.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I'd call him an average defender and I've seen him come up with many key defensive plays in the past.

The only reason I brought up the steals was to point out that Dirk isn't doing anything remarkable defensively. Do you seriously expect Nash to be a shot blocker? Of course you don't. I don't expect Dirk to get steals either, but his decent (for his size) steals coupled with his lousy (for his size) blocking indicates an average defender. I acknowledge that Nash is probably below average defensively, but he's not the saloon door you guys make him out to be.

Grammaton Cleric
01-19-2007, 03:54 PM
Um what's wrong with his rebounding ability? Dirk is 7th in the league right now in defensive rebounds per game. While that stat is a little skewed due to Dirk playing 36 minutes a night, he certainly isn't a bad rebounder.

Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I meant it as a positive.

Five-ofan
01-19-2007, 05:04 PM
defensive stats like blocks and steals are almost worthless when gauging a guy defensively. Dirk is a perfect example of this. He averaged 1.5 blocks and 1.2 steals 2 years ago and i can tell you without a shadow of a doubt hes better now defensively. Dirk is actually an above average defender at this point as evidenced by the fact that he has done a solid job on the opposing teams best big for about the last month.(at the end of games) this is actually a HUGE development for the mavs imo and one that needs to not go unnoticed because it allows just a ridiculous amount of flexibility for the mavs.

take the spurs games as an example. If dirk can do a credible job on duncan(which it looks like he can but we dont have enough sample size to be sure) then it means we can force duncan to guard dirk which is a nightmare for the spurs because duncan flat out cant guard dirk PLUS it takes him away from the basket for others.

Grammaton Cleric
01-19-2007, 05:44 PM
defensive stats like blocks and steals are almost worthless when gauging a guy defensively. Dirk is a perfect example of this. He averaged 1.5 blocks and 1.2 steals 2 years ago and i can tell you without a shadow of a doubt hes better now defensively. Dirk is actually an above average defender at this point as evidenced by the fact that he has done a solid job on the opposing teams best big for about the last month.(at the end of games) this is actually a HUGE development for the mavs imo and one that needs to not go unnoticed because it allows just a ridiculous amount of flexibility for the mavs.

take the spurs games as an example. If dirk can do a credible job on duncan(which it looks like he can but we dont have enough sample size to be sure) then it means we can force duncan to guard dirk which is a nightmare for the spurs because duncan flat out cant guard dirk PLUS it takes him away from the basket for others.

Well I think it's safe to say that Duncan isn't quite the machine he was even 2 years ago. So while you're probably right about Dirk's D improving, Duncan has probably met him half way in terms of their head-to-head battles.

I think it's also safe to say that Dallas has surpassed San Antonio as a team, so Dirk getting over on Duncan is just an extension of that.

Five-ofan
01-19-2007, 05:47 PM
Well I think it's safe to say that Duncan isn't quite the machine he was even 2 years ago. So while you're probably right about Dirk's D improving, Duncan has probably met him half way in terms of their head-to-head battles.

I think it's also safe to say that Dallas has surpassed San Antonio as a team, so Dirk getting over on Duncan is just an extension of that.
actually i think its the other way around. I think the mavs surpassing the spurs is an extension of dirk surpassing duncan. I definitely agree about duncan coming back too. Dirk is a better player than duncan now. theres not really any argument to be made the other way.

antoinewalker
01-20-2007, 05:51 PM
He doesn't make anyone around him better.

doesn't make anyone around him better? lol, right.