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Steve13
01-24-2007, 01:47 PM
According to Eddie Johnson

I know even before I write this article that I will be accused as being a homer. I can just imagine the type of e-mails I will get from Mavericks fans about my honesty because I happen to broadcast for the Suns – in my estimation, the best team in the NBA and the most exciting squad I have ever seen. Phoenix is indeed the best team in the league, although the Mavericks have beaten them twice this year. I will go on the record and say the Suns will beat them handily when they meet in the Conference Finals in May and here is why... But again, before I start Maverick fan, hear me out!

I have never been accused of being a great defender, but yet I carved out a 17-year career. I heard a story Larry Bird once told at a camp about the importance of great offense. He said, "Take a look at that gentleman standing underneath the basket on the other end of the floor. He was one of the best defenders I have ever seen play basketball. But guess what? He never played a minute in the NBA. Now let’s talk about shooting and scoring the basketball."

My message to all these gurus of how to win a championship: You need to settle down and stop looking at what the Pistons of the 80s and what the great Bulls did on the defensive end and take notice of what they did on the offensive end of the court.

Offense creates good defense, not the other way around. Detroit and Chicago controlled the tempo with the way they balanced the floor offensively. They always knew where the shot was coming from and because of that, they had a balanced floor. So when they retreated defensively, they were not vulnerable to a fast break or high-percentage shots.

The great Lakers and Celtics championship teams led by Bird and Magic Johnson were exactly the same. But they were uptempo like the Phoenix Suns are today. They ran with a purpose and had assignments based on the position they were in on a fast break – which enabled them to keep a balanced floor.

So when I hear that the Suns can’t win with their style of play, I say go ask Larry Bird and Magic Johnson if that is true. I say that because they know the secret to fast-break success.

Here it is!

You must first have a point guard who is a born leader and a threat to score 20-plus points and add 8 to 12 assists every night. But most importantly, you must have a frontcourt player with similar skills. This allows continuation and flow of the break – especially when the fast break moves to the secondary stage. You see most breaks fizzle out after the first thrust, but those Lakers and Celtics teams hit you hard on the secondary movement of the break.

That’s the secret to the success of the break and that is why teams might want to play like the Suns, but they can’t because selfishness creeps into their game – thus surprising teammates and creating an unbalanced floor for defensive breakdowns on the other end.

One important note is that the point guard does not have to be a speed demon. Dennis Johnson is my first example.

Johnson played point guard for the Celtics and most players could outrun him not going at full speed. But he and Bird gave Boston two passers that kept things in motion and made their break extremely dangerous. With Bird normally handling the ball in the frontcourt during the secondary break, the ball always found the right hands with a balanced floor – thus the good defense on the other end.

Here’s another example...

The Lakers had Magic. He had good, but not blazing speed. Then they had James Worthy and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. L.A. happened to be blessed with the best passer ever and two more excellent passers in Worthy and Kareem. The scouting report for most teams before the game against the Lakers was retreat and retreat fast thus ignoring any offensive rebound attempts – which was basketball suicide because the Lakers normally led the league in field-goal percentage. That meant teams had no chance to win if they attempted less field goals against them.

That’s why the Kings were so good with Mike Bibby, Chris Webber and Vlade Divac. But the triangle offense and the inside-outside dominance of Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant was too much for them to overcome.

But here is the difference... There are no inside-outside dominant combinations in the Western Conference. Definitely not in Dallas. That's the reason why the Suns are the best team in the league and will beat the Dallas Mavericks in May.

The Suns have the blueprint for fast-break success to a championship. Steve Nash's and Boris Diaw's excellent passing abilities have given the Suns what the great fast-breaking Lakers and Celtics teams had in the past.

Yes, Dallas beat the Suns in the Conference Finals last year and are up 2-0 so far this season, but when you dig deeper you will find out why the Suns will prevail in the end.

Lets dig!

Dallas' success over the last few years has come against a Suns team affected by injuries. In the back of their minds, they know they wouldn't have beaten the Suns at full strength.

Amare Stoudemire did not play last year and was rounding into shape the first two encounters this season. Kurt Thomas was coming back from a foot injury and Raja Bell pulled a calf muscle and struggled after Game 2 of the series. Yet the Suns took the Mavericks to Game 6. I don't think the Mavericks would have won a game had they lost Josh Howard or Jason Terry.

The Mavericks have no answer for Amare Stoudemire. They have to stay big because Dirk Nowitzki cannot and will not guard him fearing foul trouble. So the Mavericks lose the extra scorer they need on the floor because they have to play Erick Dampier and DeSagana Diop.

The Suns have the bodies – Diaw, Shawn Marion and James Jones – to wear Dirk down over a seven-game series, especially with Amare and Kurt Thomas in the paint to negate him from posting up freely and rolling to the basket.

The Mavericks will be the tired team because they depend on three players – Nowitzki, Howard and Terry – to put up big numbers, while the Suns have seven players on their roster that can score 25 points any given night and their scoring comes off the catch-and-shoot instead of the bumping and grinding Dirk and Howard go through every night.

Finally, the Steve Nash factor. Dallas has no answer to negate him. If they double off the screen-and-roll, the Suns will get open three-point attempts. If they switch, then Amare gets 40 points. Finally, if they go under the screen-and-roll, Nash scores 30-plus points.

Everybody, including Charles Barkley, says the Mavericks are a great defensive team and that’s why the Suns can’t beat them. Well, let’s look at the numbers.

- The Mavericks allow 92 points a game and score 99; 7 point differential. The Suns allow 102 points per game and score 111; 9 point differential.

- The Suns and Mavericks both hold the opposition to 45 percent from the field.

- The Mavericks average 42 rebounds per game. The Suns average 41 rebounds per game.

- The Mavericks allow opponents six less rebounds, but the Suns have taken over 300 more three-point shots – giving opponents more attempts at rebounds.

- The Mavericks and Suns both average 5 blocks and 6.5 steals per game.

- The Suns force one more turnover a game than the Mavericks.

- Here is the scariest stat of all for you defensive gurus... When the Suns play in a game when both teams are below 100, they are 5-1. That loss came against Dallas on a buzzer beater by Dirk Nowitzki. The Mavs, on the other hand, are 5-6 when teams score over 100 points against them.

Both teams are truly the class of the NBA and Avery Johnson and Mike D’Antoni should be truly admired for what they have accomplished so far. It is truly remarkable how two teams can be this focused especially after subpar starts to the season. The Suns could be going for their 33rd win in a row if the snow doesn't hold them up in Denver before losing to the Wizards and without that last-second shot by Nowitzki a few days later. Dallas is just plain ridiculous as well. They are 34-4 since starting the season with four straight losses.

But the Suns get the edge.

Just wait!

Eddie Johnson is a regular contributor to HoopsHype.com

http://www.hoopshype.com/columns/suns2_johnson.htm

WurzburgBorn
01-24-2007, 01:50 PM
I know even before I write this article that I will be accused as being a homer. I can just imagine the type of e-mails I will get from Mavericks fans about my honesty because I happen to broadcast for the Suns

and let's not disappoint him, eh?

fluid.forty.one
01-24-2007, 01:54 PM
I'm fairly certain that Amare was healthy when the Spurs whooped them 2 years ago.

I'm fairly certain that we're better than that Spurs team.

I'm certain we will beat the Suns in the playoffs.

mary
01-24-2007, 02:03 PM
- The Mavericks average 42 rebounds per game. The Suns average 41 rebounds per game.

- The Mavericks allow opponents six less rebounds, but the Suns have taken over 300 more three-point shots – giving opponents more attempts at rebounds.

I'm confused. Couldn't he get around this by just looking at the Sun's rebounding differential. That's what he did with scoring. I wonder why he changed things up mid-way through his analysis?

If the Suns shot 300 more three-pointers, don't they also have more attempts at rebounds? Aren't long rebounds more likely to be picked up on the offensive end than say.... missed lay-ups?

TripleDipping
01-24-2007, 02:04 PM
Who the hell is Eddie Johnson?

fluid.forty.one
01-24-2007, 02:11 PM
I'm confused. Couldn't he get around this by just looking at the Sun's rebounding differential. That's what he did with scoring. I wonder why he changed things up mid-way through his analysis?

lol That's a very good point. They're opponents PPG gets inflated because of the high pace style of basketball, but those extra possessions couldn't possibly help the Suns get more rebounds per game. :rolleyes:

Considering how much faster Suns games go than the Mavs, it's kinda sad that they don't have more rebounds than us.

Steve13
01-24-2007, 02:26 PM
lol That's a very good point. They're opponents PPG gets inflated because of the high pace style of basketball, but those extra possessions couldn't possibly help the Suns get more rebounds per game. :rolleyes:

Considering how much faster Suns games go than the Mavs, it's kinda sad that they don't have more rebounds than us.

The odd thing is he mentioned rebounds at FG% defense. Some interesting stats here

in 03/04 season where the Suns had Jamison/Walker/Nash/Dirk/Finley/Najera/Daniels/Howard e.t.c

the Mavs averaged 45.3 rebounds per game
Opponents grabbed just 43.5

which is a good 2+ rebounding advantage

That season the Mavs let teams shoot 45.9% from the field and 36% from the three. Which isn't that far off what Mavs and Suns give up now but you could tell the difference by the tempo from that Mavs team to the current one how different It is. So I don't really think pointing out the stats that Johnson did tells the full story.

Also must be pointed out in the 02/03 season when the Mavs had Lefrentz in the starting line-up with NVE as the main guy off the bench the Mavs only let teams shoot 43.8% from the field which now would be considered one of the top defenses. So as I mentioned stats aren't everything in basketball. They do mean alot but sometimes don't always tell the full story.

jthig32
01-24-2007, 02:26 PM
I'm confused. Couldn't he get around this by just looking at the Sun's rebounding differential. That's what he did with scoring. I wonder why he changed things up mid-way through his analysis?

If the Suns shot 300 more three-pointers, don't they also have more attempts at rebounds? Aren't long rebounds more likely to be picked up on the offensive end than say.... missed lay-ups?

Bingo. That's exactly what I thought as well.

Per Hollinger's team stats, Dallas is #3 in Rebound Rate, Phoenix is #21.

Judging rate, rather than total rebounds makes a lot more sense when you have such different styles. I would think this Johnson character knew that, it just didn't support his argument.

Flacolaco
01-24-2007, 02:29 PM
Yes, Dallas beat the Suns in the Conference Finals last year and are up 2-0 so far this season, but when you dig deeper you will find out why the Suns will prevail in the end.

My god this drives me insane. The Mavs have beat them not once, but twice, and theyre still the better team?

????

?

Im going to throw my monitor out of my office window now.

jthig32
01-24-2007, 02:30 PM
And btw, I wouldn't have a problem with this article at all, if he hadn't stated that the Suns would beat teh Mavs "handily".

If you want to write an article saying the Suns are the best team in basketball and will win the title, fine.

But much like the Simmons article, if you want to act like the Suns are head and shoulders the best team in basketball, you are a moron.

mary
01-24-2007, 02:44 PM
Here is the scariest stat of all for you defensive gurus... When the Suns play in a game when both teams are below 100, they are 5-1. That loss came against Dallas on a buzzer beater by Dirk Nowitzki. The Mavs, on the other hand, are 5-6 when teams score over 100 points against them.


Am I reading this incorrectly?

The Suns are 5-1 when both teams score under 100.

The Mavs are 5-6 when teams score more than 100 points against them.

Okay. What is the Mavs record when both teams score under 100? Why is he comparing two completely different stats?

jthig32
01-24-2007, 02:48 PM
Am I reading this incorrectly?

The Suns are 5-1 when both teams score under 100.

The Mavs are 5-6 when teams score more than 100 points against them.

Okay. What is the Mavs record when both teams score under 100? Why is he comparing two completely different stats?

I think he might be trying to say that even if Dallas holds Phoenix to their pace, Phoenix can still win, meanwhile Dallas has a hard time playing an uptempo pace.

That's the only point I can think of that he could be trying to make with that.

u2sarajevo
01-24-2007, 02:54 PM
Hoopshype is the source for UNBIASED articles.... (insert blue moon icon)

This article would be the equivalent of Mark Followill writing an article about how the Mavs are just better than the Suns.

V2M
01-24-2007, 02:57 PM
This is just perfect!

We beat 'em twice... we have a better record in the West... we have a better record against winning teams... we have played a tougher schedule thus far... and yet we're the underdogs!! Why would we want it any different?!

All these garbage write-ups serve only one purpose... they're gonna' be bulletin-board material in the AAC come playoff time!!

Triple T's
01-24-2007, 03:03 PM
Is there a site out there that give stats just for the 4th quarter? If so i think someone needs to alert the national media...

I think weve seen our fair share of defeats in the past fourth quarters... Steve Kerr....Stephen Jackson....

Suns give up more than that make in the fourth this year. They score 24 and allow 26. Dallas scores 24 and allows 22. I do also find it sad that with the uptempo game that youd have more oppourtunities at rebounds, or it seems just mroe chances for opponents to raise theyre field goal percentages. Those rebounds are either offensive or makes. For the record, id love to see this suns team play those kings teams in a 7 game.

mary
01-24-2007, 03:05 PM
I think he might be trying to say that even if Dallas holds Phoenix to their pace, Phoenix can still win, meanwhile Dallas has a hard time playing an uptempo pace.

That's the only point I can think of that he could be trying to make with that.


Talk about cherrypicking your stats.

By my count:

The Mavs have lost two games when both teams score under 100. They are 15-2 when this happens.

The Suns have lost seven (edit: make that eight) games when their opponent scores more than 100 points. They have two more losses than the Mavs in that regard. I will calculate their w/l record later when I get home, but it hardly matters.

That's pretty flimsy for something that supposed to be "scary".

All these stats really say is that the Suns play at a faster pace than the Mavs, and they have similar winning percentages (duh). Johnson's attempt to twist the numbers so that they justify his position is rather...pathetic.


Edit: I just rechecked the PHX scores. Besides the fact that he's making a flimsy point, its not even correct. Yahoo shows that their opponents scored 100+ ALL EIGHT TIMES the Suns were defeated. Its shows them to be 5-0 when BOTH teams score under 100.

Flacolaco
01-24-2007, 03:10 PM
Look, you can manipulate stats and state them in a way that makes the Mavericks sound good.

But the only real way to say which is better, is line them up and play a game.

and it's not like we've seen that twice already this season.... ;)

(this seriously makes me mad)

Triple T's
01-24-2007, 03:13 PM
Dallas def rank - 3
Phoenix def rank - 24

if the media is so gung ho about stats, thats all that needs to be said...

jthig32
01-24-2007, 03:15 PM
Dallas def rank - 3
Phoenix def rank - 24

if the media is so gung ho about stats, thats all that needs to be said...

What are you citing? Points allowed? That's not really a very good judge.

I do think Phoenix has been pretty good this year defensively. Can they get important stops during the playoffs? I don't think so. But we'll see.

But Phoenix is not a terrible defensive team.

mary
01-24-2007, 03:20 PM
Look, you can manipulate stats and state them in a way that makes the Mavericks sound good.

But the only real way to say which is better, is line them up and play a game.

and it's not like we've seen that twice already this season.... ;)

(this seriously makes me mad)


The Mavs are 0-8 when being outscored by their opponent.

fluid.forty.one
01-24-2007, 03:23 PM
The Mavs are 0-8 when being outscored by their opponent.

If this fool would have pointed this stat out, he probably would have paired it with:

The Suns are 33-0 when they outscore their opponent.

Triple T's
01-24-2007, 03:24 PM
What are you citing? Points allowed? That's not really a very good judge.

I do think Phoenix has been pretty good this year defensively. Can they get important stops during the playoffs? I don't think so. But we'll see.

But Phoenix is not a terrible defensive team.

im citing points allowed, field goal percentage, ft attempts, and ft's allowed. turnovers, etc
the case is not so much how they fare 1-3 qtrs, but how well you finish, and in the playoffs you wont have finishes in the 100's. games will go down to the wire, and thats where your defense is tested and thats where that style of play has failed. As the season moves along and the schedule evens out well see how good they are. as is, theyre 8-7 vs +500 and 16-7 vs the west.

mary
01-24-2007, 03:25 PM
If this fool would have pointed this stat out, he probably would have paired it with:

The Suns are 33-0 when they outscore their opponent.

THE SUNS RULE!!!

jthig32
01-24-2007, 03:34 PM
im citing points allowed, field goal percentage, ft attempts, and ft's allowed. turnovers, etc
the case is not so much how they fare 1-3 qtrs, but how well you finish, and in the playoffs you wont have finishes in the 100's. games will go down to the wire, and thats where your defense is tested and thats where that style of play has failed. As the season moves along and the schedule evens out well see how good they are. as is, theyre 8-7 vs +500 and 16-7 vs the west.

I agree with all this. Was just wondering what kind of defensive ranking you were using.

mary
01-24-2007, 03:50 PM
Incidentally, the Mavs happen to be 5-1 when BOTH teams score over 100.

Triple T's
01-24-2007, 04:03 PM
losers cry about not being at full strength; winners win with whatever strength they've got...


book it

Usually Lurkin
01-24-2007, 04:26 PM
I thought it was a very well written article. I knew by the end of the first sentence that the rest wouldn't be worth reading. That's what's called frontloading with the most useful information.

I know even before I write this article that I will be accused as being a homer. I can just im...

Janett_Reno
01-24-2007, 04:35 PM
If you want to watch the most excitting basketball that has ever been played in the nba, watch the Phx Suns in the regular season. Steve Nash is selling NBA basketball and the commish should give him a raise. Nash is simply amazing.

If you want to know or see a team that can get upset fast in the playoffs, it can be very easily the Phx Suns. What is more important, making the playoffs or winning NBA titles? I'll take NBA titles. We have been there and done that what Phx does. Yes, it sells tickets and it is so excitting but i am ready for a title.

Amare had a huge mvp season two years ago and Nash looked almost like Michael Jordan against the Spurs. They were simply terrific and did they win the title? No, i think they lost in 5 or 6 games to the Spurs. Nash was scorring 30 or 40 per game and played his heart out. Amare played good on Duncan and Amare scorred.

It is no way Phx can stop Tim Duncan layup's and dunks. This one thing will beat Phx. Dallas played great last year against the Spurs and if Gino had not fouled Dirk and Dirk's strong drive had not rolled in and he made that foul shot and if Duncan would have went in for a layup that last few seconds, instead of settling for a jump shot, the Spurs would have won easily another NBA title against an old Heat team.

We played our hearts out and we beat the best team in basketball, in the Spurs. We are now even deeper and Finley, Horry are not playing good and we have improved our bench. If Tim Duncan is hurt and does not play, Phx can beat them, if he is playing, how can Phx even slow him down? I have even seen the Spurs run and gun Phx and the score was up in he 130's or 140's and the Spurs beat them playing all out offense. It was very close and in ot but they showed them they could hang with them just in a run and gun game.

The playoffs will be a borring, stand still, Dampier, Shaq, Mourning, Ming, Boozer, Tim Duncan basketball. The Suns can't make a stop. Kurt Thomas is ok but under sized at center and is old, plus he Suns can't play Kurt Thomas style basketball. Marion is great, like Nash in open court basketball and when he stands still in half court, he goes from a star to just fair or not to good because he can't just stand still and shoot. Nash starts losing the ball and making to's when you make him stand still. Amare is good in half court and is good in run and gun. Raja Bell can play both. Nash an Marion can't and Kurt Thomas can't play run and gun.

Phx has the best reular season team but they always get beat out like the old Nugs Doug Moe run and gun teams. We tried it also with Don Nelson. You must get both styles and you must play borring Dampier, Diop, slow down also to compete. That is why Dampier and Diop are so important to our team. Josh Howard can play both ends and all styles.

If Dallas doesn't win i am pulling for Phx but no run and gun team has ever won a nba title. Phx is more excitting than Moe and Alex English was and those Nugs but when will a run and gun team win a nba title? Look back and all those teams could really play defense. Miami last year was not that good but they stoped us cold with knockout defense and would not let us score and Wade could score.

I have no doubt it will be Dallas or San Antonio comming out of the west, even if Tim Duncan plays on one leg. I am pulling for Dallas and then Phx and yes Nash will win the MVP again because of what he is doing and yes again it is amazing. Phx would not be much without him and with him, they all look like stars.

jacktruth
01-24-2007, 04:41 PM
Incidentally, the Mavs happen to be 5-1 when BOTH teams score over 100.

And one of those wins was against Phoenix! The other win against Phoenix was about as close to both teams above 100 as you can get.

Not coincidentally, the single loss Phoenix suffered when both teams were above 100 was, you guessed it, the mavs.

bernardos70
01-24-2007, 04:50 PM
If you're like me, and you read this article, you're probably thinking the same thing I am thinking........ who the hell is Eddie Johnson?

mary
01-24-2007, 04:53 PM
And one of those wins was against Phoenix! The other win against Phoenix was about as close to both teams above 100 as you can get.

Not coincidentally, the single loss Phoenix suffered when both teams were above 100 was, you guessed it, the mavs.


You mean a single loss when just one team scores 100? Because that was the Mavs (101-99), but in all of their other losses both teams scored >100 points.

Scoobay
01-24-2007, 05:16 PM
If you're like me, and you read this article, you're probably thinking the same thing I am thinking........ who the hell is Eddie Johnson?

This is probably Eddie Johnson from the 80's who played for the Suns, 6-7 type swing player who wouldn't know anything about defense anyways cause he couldn't play D. Wouldn't know anything about winning a championship cause he never won one. basically not worth listening to...

--------
"The Suns have the bodies – Diaw, Shawn Marion and James Jones – to wear Dirk down over a seven-game series, especially with Amare and Kurt Thomas in the paint to negate him from posting up freely and rolling to the basket."
--------

uh, james jones wearing Dirk down? does that mean we can use JJB to wear Nash down? or pops to wear down Amare? please....

Triple T's
01-24-2007, 05:26 PM
just out of curiousity...has nash ever played well with a prototypical center? I mean not counting amare/dirk. I know he does most his damage orchestrating the offense so it would lead me to believe that a traditional offense would waste his talent. i think a true 5 disprupts the SUNS scheme.

Triple T's
01-24-2007, 05:32 PM
i think hes the same one from Seattle and Houston. Mostly a shooter. no titles, but he came close.

u2sarajevo
01-24-2007, 05:37 PM
Eddie Johnson is the Suns color commentator guy.... hence why I said it's like Mark Followill writing an article about Dallas just being better than the Suns...

edit: but I guess it would be more like Ortegal writing the article...

ocelot_ark
01-24-2007, 05:39 PM
He actually hit a GIGANTIC three for Houston if I remember correctly. Game winner in the finals, maybe?

alexamenos
01-24-2007, 05:48 PM
-The Mavericks average 42 rebounds per game. The Suns average 41 rebounds per game.

- The Mavericks allow opponents six less rebounds, but the Suns have taken over 300 more three-point shots – giving opponents more attempts at rebounds.

so....

....the suns are about as get almost as many rebounds as the mavs because they're so damn good....

....and they give up way more rebounds because they play so many more possessions.

my sister teaches 3rd graders who wouldn't try to pass that off as an argument -- what a dumas.

dirno2000
01-24-2007, 05:54 PM
He actually hit a GIGANTIC three for Houston if I remember correctly. Game winner in the finals, maybe?

I watched that game this summer. It was game 4 of the 97' WCF against Utah and his shot tied the series at 2-2. They went on to lose in 6. He was a nice player.

The fact that he's on the Suns payroll pretty much invalidates his opinion and, as has been pointed out, he doesn't do a great job of making his case wth stats either.

That stat that he's so proud of essentially says that if PXH scores 100 and Dallas doesn't score 100 then the Suns have a distinct advantage.

u2sarajevo
01-24-2007, 05:59 PM
That stat that he's so proud of essentially says that if PXH scores 100 and Dallas doesn't score 100 then the Suns have a distinct advantage.I would have to agree with him though... handily....

Drbio
01-24-2007, 06:27 PM
Steve Nash sucks.

WurzburgBorn
01-24-2007, 06:30 PM
What this Johnson guy forgets is that Dallas is undefeated in games in which it scores more than 100 points and holds the opposition to under 100 points

fluid.forty.one
01-24-2007, 06:33 PM
Logic 4TW!

thewillis12
01-24-2007, 06:57 PM
you can cry about injuries but ever team goes through them. plus the sun's style of play offers more potential for injuries then say our BALANCED play. there is a reason why calfs start cramping more and steve nash breaks down by the western finals......

Windmill360
01-24-2007, 08:12 PM
I'm hearing this a lot:

"Remember when the Suns had Amare 2 years ago and the Suns whooped the Mavs?"

This statement holds no gravity. The Mavs team of 2 years ago was a completely different team.

FINtastic
01-24-2007, 08:31 PM
Well, the Suns are down early tonight...to the Knicks! It's 40-34 Knicks in the first half. Now, I know the Knicks are going to find a way to screw this up, but wouldn't it be rich if the Knicks beat "the best team in the NBA" to make this guy look like a bigger fool?

FINtastic
01-24-2007, 08:31 PM
I'm hearing this a lot:

"Remember when the Suns had Amare 2 years ago and the Suns whooped the Mavs?"

This statement holds no gravity. The Mavs team of 2 years ago was a completely different team.

That Suns team was a lot different too.

FINtastic
01-24-2007, 08:33 PM
Steve Nash sucks.

That was pretty much my take of the article. Of course I stopped reading when I saw him say that Phoenix was going to beat us handily in the playoffs so I could be missing something.

FINtastic
01-24-2007, 08:37 PM
Well, the Suns are down early tonight...to the Knicks! It's 40-34 Knicks in the first half. Now, I know the Knicks are going to find a way to screw this up, but wouldn't it be rich if the Knicks beat "the best team in the NBA" to make this guy look like a bigger fool?

Well, Phoenix has already tied the game... I knew I couldn't count on the Knicks to be of any use.

Interestingly, Eddy Curry has 21 points already and the game isn't even in halftime yet.

Steve13
01-24-2007, 08:44 PM
knicks were up by 10, now suns up 3 at HT

typical Knicks

Windmill360
01-24-2007, 08:57 PM
hmmm we havent even played the knicks yet. can't wait to get those freebies.http://upshizzle.com/up/pfiles/4464/zeek%20gone%20mad.gif

Mavzy45
01-24-2007, 09:20 PM
Well, the Suns are down early tonight...to the Knicks! It's 40-34 Knicks in the first half. Now, I know the Knicks are going to find a way to screw this up, but wouldn't it be rich if the Knicks beat "the best team in the NBA" to make this guy look like a bigger fool?

Suns 68 Knicks 64 with 2:50 to go in the third....looks like knicks will indeed screw it up! :mad:

Mavzy45
01-24-2007, 09:27 PM
What this Johnson guy forgets is that Dallas is undefeated in games in which it scores more than 100 points and holds the opposition to under 100 points

I enjoy stats...all of the stats..shooting %, FT %, Rebounds...etc etc etc.. but the stat I enjoy most is the Mavs kickn everyone elses arse.... Mavs best record in the NBA...includes wins over the "TOP" competiion...Suns-Spurs-Heat (okay maybe not top competition)-Houston...hehe gotta luv it!!! :cool:

fluid.forty.one
01-24-2007, 10:16 PM
Wow the Knicks kept it pretty close..

Suns are still the best team in the history of the world though.

Dirkadirkastan
01-24-2007, 10:18 PM
This has quickly become another one of my favorite threads. I love you all!

FINtastic
01-24-2007, 10:33 PM
You know what really sucks is that looking at Phoenix's schedule, I can see them easily winning their next three, which would give them 18 straight wins. I think they fall to San Antonio if they haven't lost by then though.

shaw-xx
01-24-2007, 10:41 PM
Sick, terrible! You were talking about the Mavs rebounding differential, then comparing with the Suns 3-pt attempts? You could have a point that your opponents get more rebounding attempts but you get more too! You were talking about the Mavs record scoring over 100, then comparing with the Suns record scoring under 100? You could also have a point that when scoring over 100 the Suns can beat Mavs since the Mavs point differential less than Suns and both have the same FG% allowed all that proves the Mavs aren't better defensive team than Suns but since you have double standard see above, I doubt what you said.

shaw-xx
01-24-2007, 10:48 PM
If you want to watch the most excitting basketball that has ever been played in the nba, watch the Phx Suns in the regular season. Steve Nash is selling NBA basketball and the commish should give him a raise. Nash is simply amazing.
Thanks for telling us how amazing he is but no need in fact. Back to the time he wasn't that amazing, we were the ones who loved him and knew his game.

dirno2000
01-24-2007, 11:26 PM
You know what really sucks is that looking at Phoenix's schedule, I can see them easily winning their next three, which would give them 18 straight wins. I think they fall to San Antonio if they haven't lost by then though.

I look for Cleveland to come out stong after being humiliated on national TV a couple of weeks ago. Hard to pick against a team that’s won 31 of 33 but I look for Lebron to have a big game and end the streak.

Windmill360
01-24-2007, 11:36 PM
another leastern conference team...

4cwebb
01-25-2007, 12:22 AM
I look for Cleveland to come out stong after being humiliated on national TV a couple of weeks ago. Hard to pick against a team that’s won 31 of 33 but I look for Lebron to have a big game and end the streak.

Not to mention that the Cavs just lost to the 76ers tonight, so they'll certainly want to try to get that game back as fast as possible...

Dirkadirkastan
01-25-2007, 12:24 AM
Meh, the Suns will make it 18 straight... then lose to the Spurs, Jazz, and Nuggets all in a row.

shaw-xx
01-25-2007, 02:54 AM
Yeah 18 jeez.

FINtastic
01-25-2007, 03:34 AM
I look for Cleveland to come out stong after being humiliated on national TV a couple of weeks ago. Hard to pick against a team that’s won 31 of 33 but I look for Lebron to have a big game and end the streak.

I don't know, Cleveland has lost 6 of their last 8 and haven't really impressed me so far this season. Maybe they will surprise me and upset the Suns, but with the way Phoenix is playing, I think it's going to take more than just a good game by LeBron to beat them. I really hope I'm wrong though.

Scoobay
01-25-2007, 02:28 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6406426

interesting take on Amare - haven't seen him play much to make my own observations. in some sense too bad if he can't make it back to full strength... but definitely wouldn't want the suns to be any better.

sike
01-25-2007, 02:41 PM
dumb people don't deserve my time.

Darth Ape
01-25-2007, 03:16 PM
What this Johnson guy forgets is that Dallas is undefeated in games in which it scores more than 100 points and holds the opposition to under 100 points

No team in the history of basketball has ever lost while scoring over 100 points and holding opponents under 100.

Janett_Reno
01-25-2007, 04:53 PM
Someone mention Nash has never had a legit center and doesn't need one. When your career is over, do you want to be known as a great player like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Garnett, Wilkens, and never win a title?

Would you rather be like Steve Kerr, Dennis Rodman, Robert Horry, Tim Duncan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Thomas, Laimbeer, Bruce Bowen, Shaq, Wade, etc?

See the sad thing is if Garnett and Nash never win a title and this applies to Dirk(which his team is made for defense and a title), they will be mentioned as they sure was good like Malone, Stockton, Wilkens, but they pick out flaws in their game, like Nash was not to good on defense, Garnett was never a limelight and big playoff player, they would say well Dirk was not good on defense. They will pick our reasons why these players never won a title. Is this fair? No but it is facts.

Is Steve Kerr as good as these guys or Robert Horry, no but they will give you reasons why they won titles. They want say Jordan, Pippen, Magic, Shaq, etc but they will say Kerr was a clutch 3 point shooter and they will say Horry was one of the greatest clutch shooters and buzzer beaters in all of the nba. Dennis Rodman and Horace Grant they will say was tuff and you could not deny them titles.

You know why Stockton and malone did not win? Because they had no center. The centers sucked at Utah. Then also Jordan. Why is Garnett not going to win a title and he is one of the best talents i have ever seen, it is because his centers suck.

Why was Dirk and Nash or Finley going to never win a title? Because Bradley sucked but boy was Walker, Jamison, Finley, Nash and Dirk excitting. If Cleveland doesn't get play from Z and Gooden on the defensive end, they won't go far in the playoffs. Nash is going to probably win 3 nba mvp's in a row but i doubt they win the tittle. It isn't Nash's fault, it is the faut he has never had a center. This year they are playing Walker, Jamison, Finley, Nash and Drk style. A guy like Bynum could domiante Phx in the playoffs for LA.

So does Nash need a center? No, not for mvp's and for one of the greatest players and excitting players to watch like Pistol Pete. Does he need a center to win a nba title? Yes. What is important? Who knows but i like titles. They will talk years from now how great the Shaq was in Miami and how he beat Dallas. It was Wade and Mourning. Now Walker and Payton have title holder to their career and name.

This is why defense is important and why Dampier, Diop, are important if they score or do not score because they are stoppers and centers. It was ashame that Nash did not or could not have a center here in Dallas and have the rest of his team. Trust me, he could play with Shaq, Ming, Ben Wallace, or whomever, Dampier and everyone of those centers or players would score double what they do now. It would be layups and dunks and then Nash would also have a title. Dirk and our team has a center and we have no excuses and we was close last year but Riley outfoxed us.

Janett_Reno
01-25-2007, 05:03 PM
This is why, if Houston or Miami just makes the playoffs, they are dangerous. Ming can not win it without McGrady and McGrady can't win without Ming. They both have to be healthy and Battier must be. He is like a hustle man, like Josh Howard and plays really good defense. He doesn't come close to Howard on offense but he is a big needed defensive piece and all arounder. Then they need a point guard to get it up court and a few guys off the bench. Same with Miami in Shaq, Mourn and Wade.

I fear dunks and layups more than 3 pointers thru out the playoffs. It is good when you have it all.

DarenG
01-25-2007, 05:13 PM
I guess some of us Mavs fans are so scared about the Suns that they write them off or get defensive. Here is the thing, the Suns have something to prove against the Mavs. We beat them the playoffs and twice this year. Just like the Mavs had to prove to the Suns that they could get past them after 2 years ago. However, what some of us Mavs fans won't admit is we have something to prove too.

We did beat the Suns twice. However, IMO those 2 wins mean NOTHING. All of the Suns losses came at the start of the season just like ours. Amare was not starting and was nowhere near healthy. So if anything for me, we still have to prove that we are better then the Suns with a Suns team at full strength or close. We still have to prove that we can beat a Suns team in the playoffs that beat us last time Amare was there to play.

I still think we can do it. However, both teams have things they need to prove. In the mean time, I am going to enjoy this race. It's coming down to the wire. When we do meet in the playoffs it's going to be a WAR.

dirno2000
01-25-2007, 05:45 PM
We did beat the Suns twice. However, IMO those 2 wins mean NOTHING. All of the Suns losses came at the start of the season just like ours. Amare was not starting and was nowhere near healthy. So if anything for me, we still have to prove that we are better then the Suns with a Suns team at full strength or close. We still have to prove that we can beat a Suns team in the playoffs that beat us last time Amare was there to play.

Amare may not have been at full strength in the first game but Josh Howard didn't even play. I'd say that we were a little more handicapped.

In the second game they were at full strength and we were missing Stack.

To say that those games mean nothing is not totally true. They show that at this point, we're better at executing in the final minutes of close games. Now that may or may not be the case in a playoff series but I'd rather have the mental edge than to not have it. That's why I think these last two games with them are meaningful.

DarenG
01-25-2007, 05:51 PM
Amare may not have been at full strength in the first game but Josh Howard didn't even play. I'd say that we were a little more handicapped.

In the second game they were at full strength and we were missing Stack.

To say that those games mean nothing is not totally true. They show that at this point, we're better at executing in the final minutes of close games. Now that may or may not be the case in a playoff series but I'd rather have the mental edge than to not have it. That's why I think these last two games with them are meaningful.

Your trying to compare missing Howard or Stack to Amare?? If that comparison was Dirk..ok. Howard has stepped up his game this year but lets not get carried away. I agree though, we have a mental edge over this team. I am sure they feel like they have alot more to prove to us then we do of them. I was just pointing out that we really don't know much until both teams play each other at full strength. Last time that happend the Suns won. That was my point.

PS The Suns and the media sure don't think those game meant a thing so we better not either and underestimate this team. If and WHEN we win our next game against them, I think that give us an even better mental edge come playoffs.

dirno2000
01-25-2007, 06:09 PM
Your trying to compare missing Howard or Stack to Amare?? If that comparison was Dirk..ok. Howard has stepped up his game this year but lets not get carried away. I agree though, we have a mental edge over this team. I am sure they feel like they have alot more to prove to us then we do of them. I was just pointing out that we really don't know much until both teams play each other at full strength. Last time that happend the Suns won. That was my point.[quote]

Yes, Howard is just as important to Dallas as Amare is to PXH. And Howard out is more damaging than Amare being less than 100%.

Also, I didn't compare Amare to Stack. I simply pointed out that PXH was at full strength in the second meeting while we were missing one of out bench scorers.

[quote]PS The Suns and the media sure don't think those game meant a thing so we better not either and underestimate this team. If and WHEN we win our next game against them, I think that give us an even better mental edge come playoffs.

Why should we take out que from the Suns and the media?

That being said, most posters on this board appear to have a healthy respect for the Suns and I'm pretty sure the team does.

Amir
01-26-2007, 09:08 AM
An interesting column and analyses, but still the Mavs are better than the Suns.

And we`ll see this in May ;)

alexamenos
01-26-2007, 12:12 PM
I actually caught an interview with this guy on NBA Radio yesterday. He's sillier in real life than he is in a column.

DarenG
01-26-2007, 04:48 PM
Yes, Howard is just as important to Dallas as Amare is to PXH. And Howard out is more damaging than Amare being less than 100%.

Howard is the man this year and has stepped up his game but put down the coolaid. Missing Amare is like missing Dirk. Missing Howard is more like missing Marion for the Suns.

Also, I didn't compare Amare to Stack. I simply pointed out that PXH was at full strength in the second meeting while we were missing one of out bench scorers.

They were? Amare wasn't even close to 100%. Raja Bell was also hurt and did not play. So neither team was 100% and IMO have no idea how to guage each other. That's why our next game against them is so important. I want to know where we stand come play off time by playing each other healthy.

TheBlueVan
01-26-2007, 05:00 PM
i was watching espn today and they were advertising the the next suns game saying "The best team in the NBA takes on the Cleveland Cavaliers"

so, its official

dirno2000
01-26-2007, 05:01 PM
Howard is the man this year and has stepped up his game but put down the coolaid. Missing Amare is like missing Dirk. Missing Howard is more like missing Marion for the Suns.

You couldn't be more wrong. You actually think the Mavs could win 54 games and go to the WCF without Dirk? You can't compare missing any Sun to missing Dirk because the gap between Dirk and his teammates is so much greater than the gap between the top Sun and his teammates.

Understand, I"m not saying Josh is as good as Amare. Only that he's just as important to his team.

In fact, lets lot at net +/- figures:
Amare: +7.8
Josh: +7.9
Dirk: +19.1

They were? Amare wasn't even close to 100%. Raja Bell was also hurt and did not play. So neither team was 100% and IMO have no idea how to guage each other. That's why our next game against them is so important. I want to know where we stand come play off time by playing each other healthy.

Amare was just as close to 100% as he is now. And Raja Bell played 43 minutes.

jacktruth
01-26-2007, 05:16 PM
edit

DarenG
01-26-2007, 05:38 PM
You couldn't be more wrong. You actually think the Mavs could win 54 games and go to the WCF without Dirk? You can't compare missing any Sun to missing Dirk because the gap between Dirk and his teammates is so much greater than the gap between the top Sun and his teammates.

Understand, I"m not saying Josh is as good as Amare. Only that he's just as important to his team.

In fact, lets lot at net +/- figures:
Amare: +7.8
Josh: +7.9
Dirk: +19.1



Amare was just as close to 100% as he is now. And Raja Bell played 43 minutes.

My bad. Raja was out the first game. Amare was not as close then as he is now though. Amare couldn't even play above the rim until recently. Over the last few weeks that guy is actually catching ally oops, blocking shots and dunking on people. NOT the same player we saw.

So I get what your saying about Howard now. However, I still don't agree because if Howard is out the Mavs can still shoot. When Amare is out they have no post up game. Amare adds another dimension where I think Howard enhances one that we already have here. Also, you can't just look at Net figures. You need to look at alot of other stats besides that to get a feel for the impact someone has on their team.

So bring on the Suns (with both teams healthy) and let the chips fall man. That way neither side has any excuses leading up to the playoffs.

dirno2000
01-26-2007, 06:23 PM
My bad. Raja was out the first game. Amare was not as close then as he is now though. Amare couldn't even play above the rim until recently. Over the last few weeks that guy is actually catching ally oops, blocking shots and dunking on people. NOT the same player we saw.

Amare is on record saying that he's not even sure how close he is to 100% so there's no way we can really know. Still, two things lead me to believe that he was pretty close. 1) the fact that Dantoni played him 39 minutes and 2) The play at the end of the game where he jumped over Josh, caught the pass with one hand and dunked. You're obviously not remembering that game very well because he played above the rim all night and ended up with 25 and 13. That game was less than a month ago.

So I get what your saying about Howard now. However, I still don't agree because if Howard is out the Mavs can still shoot. When Amare is out they have no post up game. Amare adds another dimension where I think Howard enhances one that we already have here.

Amare gives them a better dimension but not necessarily a different one. As a Mavs fan I'd love for him to spend more time working in the low post. Damp and Diop don't have much trouble handling him down there. He becomes unguardable when he's facing up from 15 feet and can go by your center or when finishing the pick and roll with Nash. Diaw and Marion can the same thing, just not quite as well.

Josh is the Mavs best slasher and their best finisher in the paint. He can handle the ball, get out on the break, grab offensive rebounds and he’s one of the better shot blocking SF’s in the league.

His skillset is unique on this team but you’re kind of over simplifying things if your going to reduce every player to low post or perimeter.

Also, you can't just look at Net figures. You need to look at alot of other stats besides that to get a feel for the impact someone has on their team

Well, post then and lets have a look at them.

I threw out +/- stats but it’s really intuitive. The gap between Dirk and his teammates is bigger than the gap between the top Sun (whoever you think that is) and his teammates.

Again, do you think a Mavs team without Dirk could win 54 game and make the WCF?

DarenG
01-26-2007, 09:35 PM
Amare is on record saying that he's not even sure how close he is to 100% so there's no way we can really know. Still, two things lead me to believe that he was pretty close. 1) the fact that Dantoni played him 39 minutes and 2) The play at the end of the game where he jumped over Josh, caught the pass with one hand and dunked. You're obviously not remembering that game very well because he played above the rim all night and ended up with 25 and 13. That game was less than a month ago.?

I never said that Amare couldn't jump. I said he was playing below the rim for the most part. Most of his points in the game that I have watched were all from the free throw line and layups. Since Amare came back you would see him occasionally get up. The last couple of weeks Amare has not only playing above the rim again but hes also been more jumping more then I have seen him all season.

Amare gives them a better dimension but not necessarily a different one. As a Mavs fan I'd love for him to spend more time working in the low post. Damp and Diop don't have much trouble handling him down there. He becomes unguardable when he's facing up from 15 feet and can go by your center or when finishing the pick and roll with Nash. Diaw and Marion can the same thing, just not quite as well.

I don't think Diop or Damp gan guard Amare period. All they can do is try and slow him down. Amare absolutely adds a different dimension because he's unstoppable close to the bucket. Who else on the team for the Suns is like that? Diaw? He was really good down low last season and the Suns got lucky finding him. As good as Amare though he isn't.

Josh is the Mavs best slasher and their best finisher in the paint. He can handle the ball, get out on the break, grab offensive rebounds and he’s one of the better shot blocking SF’s in the league.

Sounds alot like Marion to me.

His skillset is unique on this team but you’re kind of over simplifying things if your going to reduce every player to low post or perimeter.

I wasn't the one trying to reduce this to point diferrential comparison. To me that is oversimplifying the impact to what each player means to his team.

Again, do you think a Mavs team without Dirk could win 54 game and make the WCF?

If the Suns can get lucky enough to find 2 guys in Diaw and Tim Thomas to fill Amare's role then yes it's possible. Is it likely? No. The Suns got a little lucky there. However, I think by trying to say that missing Amare has the same impact as missing Howard is underestimating Amare's impact to a game. Especially, since him being back alone allows you to move Kurt off the bench.

Again, I think we both agree the Mavs are a better team. However, teams grow and change over the course of a season. Sometimes when playing the team later in the season is completely a different experience. Now add that you have a relatively healthy Suns team with someone like Amare almost 100% means this team will be different then the one we played last. I will feel much better when we beat them the next time then relying on how we played them before.

FINtastic
01-26-2007, 10:06 PM
Amare is on record saying that he's not even sure how close he is to 100% so there's no way we can really know. Still, two things lead me to believe that he was pretty close. 1) the fact that Dantoni played him 39 minutes and 2) The play at the end of the game where he jumped over Josh, caught the pass with one hand and dunked. You're obviously not remembering that game very well because he played above the rim all night and ended up with 25 and 13. That game was less than a month ago.

It was weird because Amare wasn't really playing above the rim in the first half for the most part that night. He seemed to be trying to finesse it a lot. But in the second half, he started dunking, and he was dunking HARD. And that one handed alley-oop he got with a minute left has to rank up there with some of the sickest dunks I've seen in person. If he's not 100% he's pretty close.

FINtastic
01-26-2007, 10:08 PM
Sounds alot like Marion to me.

And that's a bad thing? You are way diminishing Marion's value if you think it is. I would say that Marion is probably more important than Amare even though Amare is the "sexier" player.

dirno2000
01-26-2007, 10:36 PM
[qutoe]I don't think Diop or Damp gan guard Amare period. All they can do is try and slow him down. Amare absolutely adds a different dimension because he's unstoppable close to the bucket. Who else on the team for the Suns is like that? Diaw? He was really good down low last season and the Suns got lucky finding him. As good as Amare though he isn't.[/quote]

Nope. In the first quarter of the game they went to Amare in the post and Damp had him on lock. He’s not that great of a low post player. His advantage is his ability to face up on centers like ours because they can’t match his speed. That’s why PHX’s offense was still highly productive without him last year. Diaw and Marion have the same advantage but they’re not as big thus they’re not as dominant. I was beginning to think that you were an undercover Suns fan but it’s becoming that clear that I was wrong. A true Suns fan would know these things.

Sounds alot like Marion to me.

But Marion doesn’t play for the Dallas. You said that Josh doesn’t bring anything different to the table but he clearly does. How else on the Mavs has that skill set?

I wasn't the one trying to reduce this to point diferrential comparison. To me that is oversimplifying the impact to what each player means to his team.

Net +/- tells us how each team performs with and without Josh and Amare on the court. Like I said, if there’s another stat out that that you’d like to throw out I’m all ears.

[qutoe]If the Suns can get lucky enough to find 2 guys in Diaw and Tim Thomas to fill Amare's role then yes it's possible. Is it likely? No. The Suns got a little lucky there. However, I think by trying to say that missing Amare has the same impact as missing Howard is underestimating Amare's impact to a game. Especially, since him being back alone allows you to move Kurt off the bench.[/quote]

If you’re saying Dallas can replace Dirk with Diaw and Thomas and have the year that PXH had last year then we’ll just have disagree.

dirno2000
01-26-2007, 10:41 PM
It was weird because Amare wasn't really playing above the rim in the first half for the most part that night. He seemed to be trying to finesse it a lot. But in the second half, he started dunking, and he was dunking HARD. And that one handed alley-oop he got with a minute left has to rank up there with some of the sickest dunks I've seen in person. If he's not 100% he's pretty close.

PHX's problem (if you want to call this a problem) is that both Amare and Diaw are most effective in the high post. Early in the year (and early in that game) Diaw was working the high post while Amare was posting up. Thay abandoned that in the 2nd half and gave us a steady does of Nash/amare pick and roll. that's the one thing they do that we just don't have an answer for.

DarenG
01-26-2007, 11:41 PM
[qutoe] He’s not that great of a low post player.

Take off the rose colored glasses. Your delusional.

[qutoe] I was beginning to think that you were an undercover Suns fan but it’s becoming that clear that I was wrong. A true Suns fan would know these things.

I just prefer to be more objective then be a blind fanboy. I have repeatedly stated that our team is better then the Suns. Are you sure your not the undercover fan because you seem to know more about the Suns then anybody I know. Even the Suns themselves.

dirno2000
01-26-2007, 11:52 PM
Take off the rose colored glasses. Your delusional.

No glasses, just stating fact. Amare's a dominant player but not with his back to the basket.

I just prefer to be more objective then be a [b]blind fanboy[b/]. I have repeatedly stated that our team is better then the Suns. Are you sure your not the undercover fan because you seem to know more about the Suns then anybody I know. Even the Suns themselves.

Resorting to name calling is the first sign that your argument is falling apart.

I do know the Suns pretty well but that's just because I watch a lot of basketball and they're currently the number one threat.

DarenG
01-27-2007, 12:04 AM
No glasses, just stating fact. Amare's a dominant player but not with his back to the basket.

Fact? Says you. :rolleyes:



Resorting to name calling is the first sign that your argument is falling apart. I do know the Suns pretty well but that's just because I watch a lot of basketball and they're currently the number one threat.

Faboyism = blind faith = no objectivity. Trust me you only think you know the Suns. If you actually had an argument that wasn't so slanted towards our team that I might actually take you seriously. Every point you make makes it sound like we are superior in every way. Your arguments are the only one becoming transparent and obviously not very objective.

dude1394
01-27-2007, 12:09 AM
I might actually take you seriously.

eeek

dirno2000
01-27-2007, 12:45 AM
Every point you make makes it sound like we are superior in every way.

Really? could you a little more specific because I don't think i've said anything negative about the Suns.

My main points have been:
- The Suns have been closer to 100% in both head to head match ups
- Josh is just as important to his team as Amare is to his. And Amare is nowhere near as important to the Suns as Dirk is to the Mavs. You said you had stats to prove otherwise but they never materialized.
- When Amare has hurt Dallas he's been facing up from the FT line or working the pick and roll with Nash. I also called him a dominant player more than one.

I've said nothing to indicate that I think the Mavs are superior in every way. In fact, you're the one that keeps saying that Dallas is better.

Now in a desperate attempt to save a little face, you’ve resorted to name calling. You’re not the first one.

DarenG
01-27-2007, 07:20 PM
My main points have been:
- The Suns have been closer to 100% in both head to head match ups

Which is innacurate. Especially the 1st one.


- Josh is just as important to his team as Amare is to his. And Amare is nowhere near as important to the Suns as Dirk is to the Mavs. You said you had stats to prove otherwise but they never materialized.

Again grossly delusional. I also said that you have to take all the stats into consideration. I wasn't referring to anything specific. So you could just as easily look at career stats and averages on NBA.com. So if your to lazy to look em up that's your problem not mine.

- When Amare has hurt Dallas he's been facing up from the FT line or working the pick and roll with Nash.

Now I know you don't know what your talking about because one of Amare's bread and butter plays has always been his spin move in the lane. Not just the pick and roll and facing up. Amare has usually eaten Damp alive playing with his back to the baseket.

Again, nothing will be a better test to how we match up with them then the next game. Until then we don't have an accurate guage.

dirno2000
01-27-2007, 10:27 PM
Which is innacurate. Especially the 1st one.

They're entire team was available for both matchups. Not true for Dallas.

Again grossly delusional. I also said that you have to take all the stats into consideration. I wasn't referring to anything specific. So you could just as easily look at career stats and averages on NBA.com. So if your to lazy to look em up that's your problem not mine.

Yea, I figured you weren't referring to anything specific. So there are better stats than +/-, you just don't know what they are...you don't understand +/- do you?

And stop saying we. You joined the forum two days ago and immediatly went to all the threads pertaining to PXH to defend them. You're also overly sensitive to criticism of the Suns. It's clear that you're a Sun's fan. No big deal because opposing teams fans are allowed to post here. Just so that you know, it's obvious.

DarenG
01-27-2007, 11:23 PM
They're entire team was available for both matchups. Not true for Dallas.

Really cause I thought Raja Bell was a starter? 1st game ZERO minutes. Also, having the entire team available and having them healthy is 2 different things. Again, if you had watched the Suns as much as you claim you wouldn't be making the rediculous observation that the Amare playing now is the same Amare we played in the last game.

Yea, I figured you weren't referring to anything specific. So there are better stats than +/-, you just don't know what they are...you don't understand +/- do you?

Man sense your to lazy.

Career Avgs.

PPG
Amare - 19.6
Marion - 18.7
Howard - 12.3

RPG
Amare - 8.9
Marion - 10.1
Howard 6.2

APG
Amare - 1.2
Marion - 2.0
Howard - 1.2

BPG
Amare - 1.4
Marion - 1.3
Howard - 0.6

SPG
Amare - 0.9
Marion - 1.9
Howard - 1.2

That enough for you? Howard is not as important as either Marion or Amare when it comes to the impact they have on their team. I AM NOT sayind Howard is not an important to the MAVS. Only saying that you can't compare the impact that Amare has versus Howard when you look at what they have done for their teams since they got there.

And stop saying we. You joined the forum two days ago and immediatly went to all the threads pertaining to PXH to defend them. You're also overly sensitive to criticism of the Suns. It's clear that you're a Sun's fan. No big deal because opposing teams fans are allowed to post here. Just so that you know, it's obvious.

The only reason I have posted comments concerning the Suns is because their are too many of our fans looking for reasons to knock them down without looking at it objectively. I have made similar arguements for the Spurs on Real GM.com. I guess I am a Spurs fan too right? So what your saying is a Mavs fan can't objectively argue a point about the Suns or Spurs without being a fan? There are plenty of Mavs fans on this site that are alot more objective then you have shown to be. I guess they are closet Suns fans too.

You want to argue some Spurs points using your same reasoning? I would be happy to get into a debate regarding that too. Then again, I guess I am a Spurs fan too. :rolleyes:

TheBlueVan
01-27-2007, 11:32 PM
it might just be better to not join a forum then start pissing off the home team's fans, even if you are a fan. just a thought....

DarenG
01-27-2007, 11:45 PM
it might just be better to not join a forum then start pissing off the home team's fans, even if you are a fan. just a thought....

The intent wasn't to piss off, it was to have an objective discussion in which some people are not capable of having. That's fine though. There a fanboys and there are Mavs fans who are also NBA fans. So maybe next time I will wait until I have posted 100 times before I start offending the coolaid drinkers. I do hear what your saying though.

dude1394
01-28-2007, 01:00 AM
The intent wasn't to piss off, it was to have an objective discussion in which some people are not capable of having. That's fine though. There a fanboys and there are Mavs fans who are also NBA fans. So maybe next time I will wait until I have posted 100 times before I start offending the coolaid drinkers. I do hear what your saying though.

Don't do anyone any favors okay. La de da.

Drbio
01-28-2007, 01:48 AM
Steve Nash Sucks.

Thespiralgoeson
01-28-2007, 02:15 AM
Darren, I admire your valiant effort, but reading your debates with Dirno was a little bit like watching the 2004 vice-presidential debate. In the same way that Edwards looked like a child next to Cheney, going up against Dirno, you don't seem to know much about basketball.

First of all, D2K is by no means a "cool-aid drinker" and he is certainly not "delusional." He's one of the most objective posters around here. He calls' em like he sees' em. Je's a fan, not a fan boy. Most of the regulars around here are the same way. I know I try to be.

Second, you try to argue his points, but you never do site the necessary info or facts to support your statements.

D2K's absolutely right in that Amare is not a dominant, or even a very good "low post" player, and you couldn't be more wrong in calling him delusional. Amare doesn't score his points by battling for position down low, overpowering his man, or using fancy pivots, up-and-unders in the like to fake him out, nor does he even use short jumpers or hookshots. Amare scores the overwhelming majority of his points either on dribble-drives, or off the pick and roll. Come to think of it, I don't know that I've ever seen Amare "post up" in the traditional sense. The fact is, Amare plays quite a bit more like Dirk than he does like Duncan.

Man sense your to lazy.

Career Avgs.

PPG
Amare - 19.6
Marion - 18.7
Howard - 12.3

RPG
Amare - 8.9
Marion - 10.1
Howard 6.2

APG
Amare - 1.2
Marion - 2.0
Howard - 1.2

BPG
Amare - 1.4
Marion - 1.3
Howard - 0.6

SPG
Amare - 0.9
Marion - 1.9
Howard - 1.2

That enough for you? Howard is not as important as either Marion or Amare when it comes to the impact they have on their team. I AM NOT sayind Howard is not an important to the MAVS. Only saying that you can't compare the impact that Amare has versus Howard when you look at what they have done for their teams since they got there.


You looked up some stats. That's a good start. But the problem is, you picked the wrong stats to make your point, and you made no kind of real argument whatsoever. D2K said Howard has had as much of an impact to the Mavs as Marion has to the Suns.

You have said absolutely nothing to make anyone here, at least not anyone who understands the game, think otherwise. If a player's impact on the game were judged by the statistics you pulled up, Steve Nash has less of an impact on the game that Michael Redd.

DarenG
01-28-2007, 03:41 AM
Darren, I admire your valiant effort, but reading your debates with Dirno was a little bit like watching the 2004 vice-presidential debate. In the same way that Edwards looked like a child next to Cheney, going up against Dirno, you don't seem to know much about basketball.

First of all, D2K is by no means a "cool-aid drinker" and he is certainly not "delusional." He's one of the most objective posters around here. He calls' em like he sees' em. Je's a fan, not a fan boy. Most of the regulars around here are the same way. I know I try to be.

Second, you try to argue his points, but you never do site the necessary info or facts to support your statements.

D2K's absolutely right in that Amare is not a dominant, or even a very good "low post" player, and you couldn't be more wrong in calling him delusional. Amare doesn't score his points by battling for position down low, overpowering his man, or using fancy pivots, up-and-unders in the like to fake him out, nor does he even use short jumpers or hookshots. Amare scores the overwhelming majority of his points either on dribble-drives, or off the pick and roll. Come to think of it, I don't know that I've ever seen Amare "post up" in the traditional sense. The fact is, Amare plays quite a bit more like Dirk than he does like Duncan.



You looked up some stats. That's a good start. But the problem is, you picked the wrong stats to make your point, and you made no kind of real argument whatsoever. D2K said Howard has had as much of an impact to the Mavs as Marion has to the Suns.

You have said absolutely nothing to make anyone here, at least not anyone who understands the game, think otherwise. If a player's impact on the game were judged by the statistics you pulled up, Steve Nash has less of an impact on the game that Michael Redd.

Uh, ok?!? Wrong stats?! All of those stats support my point. What are you talking about? Nothing to prove my point? I have heard nothing from him but his opinion and nothing to support his point stat wise but differential? Are you kidding me? Differential? It's getting thick in here. If you used differential as a basis for how good someone is our their impact then the Suns would be as good as we are in defense. They are not. The Suns defensive power ranking was somewhere around 15 last time I checked. However, if you look at their overall Defensive differential its right up there with ours. Differential can be extremely misleading in any category.

By the way Amare plays nothing like Dirk. Dirk is jump shot first drive second. Amare is just the opposite. Duncan does post up more in the true sense I agree. However, Amare is hardly a jump shooter like Dirk. You 2 don't agree and that's cool. Obviously we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Thespiralgoeson
01-28-2007, 06:31 AM
Uh, ok?!? Wrong stats?! All of those stats support my point. What are you talking about? Nothing to prove my point? I have heard nothing from him but his opinion and nothing to support his point stat wise but differential? Are you kidding me? Differential? It's getting thick in here. If you used differential as a basis for how good someone is our their impact then the Suns would be as good as we are in defense. They are not. The Suns defensive power ranking was somewhere around 15 last time I checked. However, if you look at their overall Defensive differential its right up there with ours. Differential can be extremely misleading in any category.

Son, we're not talking about pure talent. Nobody here, least of all D2k is saying that Howard is as talented as Amare or Marion. D2K's argument is that he has as much of an impact to the Mavs as Marion does for the Suns. You said nothing to make me, or anyone else think otherwise.

PPG, APG, BPG, SPG? Try PER, or Net +/-. Like I said, wrong stats.

By the way Amare plays nothing like Dirk. Dirk is jump shot first drive second. Amare is just the opposite. Duncan does post up more in the true sense I agree. However, Amare is hardly a jump shooter like Dirk. You 2 don't agree and that's cool.

Where the f*ck did I say ANYTHING about Amare being a jumpshooter? What I'm saying is, Amare doesn't post up AT ALL. I said most of his points come from dribble drives and off the pick-and-roll. Very similar to Dirk.

Obviously we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

No, I won't leave it at that. You're just not getting what D2K and I are saying. You don't seem to understand what a "post player" is. A low-post scorer is someone who spends most of their time on the block battling their defender for position and waiting for the ball. Once he gets the ball he will use his weight move his defender out of the way, use pivots, pump-fakes, and up-and-under's to fake them out, or he will shoot short-jumpers, or hookshots over them.

Amare does none of these things.

Amare almost NEVER plays with his back to the basket. He and Dirk both score almost all of their points facing the basket. They both score a great deal of their points off the pick and roll, and dribble-drives. The difference is, Dirk is deadlier mid-range and farther than he is going all the way to the basket, unless he's going to the FT line, while Amare has a much more limited outside game, and is much more effective going for the dunk, especially off the pick-and-roll.

But my point remains. Both players score almost all of their points facing the basket. Like I said, Amare plays much more like Dirk than he does like Duncan.

DarenG
01-29-2007, 10:24 AM
Son, we're not talking about pure talent. Nobody here, least of all D2k is saying that Howard is as talented as Amare or Marion. D2K's argument is that he has as much of an impact to the Mavs as Marion does for the Suns. You said nothing to make me, or anyone else think otherwise.

First off I'm not your son. Second you can't cherry pick stats to make your point which is exactly what your doing.

Where the f*ck did I say ANYTHING about Amare being a jumpshooter? What I'm saying is, Amare doesn't post up AT ALL. I said most of his points come from dribble drives and off the pick-and-roll. Very similar to Dirk.

I also said that I think Dirk jump shoots first, drives second. That is in pure contrast to the type of player Amare is. So I think they are completely different types of players and to try and compare them other then the overall impact they have on their teams is stupid.

No, I won't leave it at that. You're just not getting what D2K and I are saying. A low-post scorer is someone who spends most of their time on the block battling their defender for position and waiting for the ball. Once he gets the ball he will use his weight move his defender out of the way, use pivots, pump-fakes, and up-and-under's to fake them out, or he will shoot short-jumpers, or hookshots over them.

You obviusly don't watch Amare play. Part of Amare's bread and butter is spin moves with his back to the basket. If you want to say that is not the majority of his points I could buy that. However, most of Dirks points are also jump shots. There is a huge contrast in how Dirk and Amare play.

Again, we will agree to disagree.

sike
01-29-2007, 10:30 AM
Steve Nash Sucks.
he is certainly the most fortunate player I've seen...

4cwebb
01-29-2007, 10:09 PM
For everyone who thinks Amare is back to full strength, I point to his performance tonight against the Twolves. The game is still on going, but it's not pretty --- 8 pts, 4 rebounds in 34 minutes.

Dirkadirkastan
01-29-2007, 10:10 PM
Suns down by 7 with 3 minutes to go.

nashtymavsfan13
01-29-2007, 10:11 PM
Steve Nash rocks, 20-4-17 with only 3 TO's and 3 made threes.

jthig32
01-29-2007, 10:35 PM
You obviusly don't watch Amare play. Part of Amare's bread and butter is spin moves with his back to the basket. If you want to say that is not the majority of his points I could buy that. However, most of Dirks points are also jump shots. There is a huge contrast in how Dirk and Amare play.

He didn't say they were the same player. What he said is that Amare is more similar to Dirk than he is Duncan. He's right about that, and you've said nothing to prove otherwise.

TheBlueVan
01-29-2007, 10:57 PM
and once again the suns show that they cant stop people when they have to, and that if their shots dont fall from 3, their goose is cooked

jthig32
01-29-2007, 11:01 PM
and once again the suns show that they cant stop people when they have to, and that if their shots dont fall from 3, their goose is cooked

Actually their 3's fell just fine (40%). The problem was they had twice as many turnovers as the Wolves, and they let the Wolves shoot 60%!!!

60%!!!

I'm trying to think of what I wouldn't give for the Spurs to lose to San Antonio AND Utah this week, to have a three game losing streak....I'm having a hard time coming up with something I wouldn't give. :D

TheBlueVan
01-29-2007, 11:06 PM
i'll keep my "manhood"....well, a 3 game losing streak would be sweet...

Steve13
01-29-2007, 11:08 PM
certainly doesn't get any easier for Phoenix. One advantage they do have is playing both Spurs and Jazz at home.

Don't forget they have to go to Denver next monday to play the Nuggets. That won't be easy either. Not with Melo back.

V2M
01-30-2007, 12:05 AM
I'm trying to think of what I wouldn't give for the Spurs to lose to San Antonio AND Utah this week, to have a three game losing streak....I'm having a hard time coming up with something I wouldn't give. :D

Don't think that'll happen...

dude1394
01-30-2007, 12:10 AM
You obviusly don't watch Amare play. Part of Amare's bread and butter is spin moves with his back to the basket. If you want to say that is not the majority of his points I could buy that. However, most of Dirks points are also jump shots. There is a huge contrast in how Dirk and Amare play.

Again, we will agree to disagree.

Son..Amare's bread and butter is a pass from nash for a dunk, that appears to be about the extent of his offensive abilities. You are right, dirk gets his own shot, Amare is given his.

Thespiralgoeson
01-30-2007, 12:36 AM
First off I'm not your son. Second you can't cherry pick stats to make your point which is exactly what your doing.

Okay, kid then. Kid, if anyone's "cherry picking" stats, it's you. We're talking about the impact a player has when he's in the game. That's what +/- is. Christ, you didn't even include FG% in your post.

I also said that I think Dirk jump shoots first, drives second. That is in pure contrast to the type of player Amare is. So I think they are completely different types of players and to try and compare them other then the overall impact they have on their teams is stupid.

Of course Dirk shoots and drives second. But you still insist on being too bone-headed to get the fact that they both FACE THE GODDAMN BASKET!!!!

I never even said they were that much alike. I said that Amare plays more like Dirk than he does like Duncan, and that is a fact.

You obviusly don't watch Amare play. Part of Amare's bread and butter is spin moves with his back to the basket. If you want to say that is not the majority of his points I could buy that. However, most of Dirks points are also jump shots. There is a huge contrast in how Dirk and Amare play.

Again, we will agree to disagree.

You can agree to disagree, and I'll agree that you just don't get what a low-post scorer is. Dirk uses lots of spin moves with his back to the basket as well. The difference is, he usually pulls up for the jumper instead of going for the dunk. But Amare's "bread and butter" is the pick-and-roll with Nash. And I never said there wasn't a contrast between the way Dirk and Amare play. Of course there is. But there are similarities as well. I'm not even trying to compare the two. As a matter of fact, forget I ever even mentioned Dirk. My only point is that Amare is not a "post player" in the true sense of the word. The overwhelming majority of his points come from drives, and off the pick-and-roll, not post-ups.

Dirkadirkastan
01-30-2007, 01:26 AM
"Oh man, I don't think we can beat the Mavs this year."

-Suns fan right outside my dorm about fifteen minutes ago

DarenG
01-30-2007, 02:34 AM
Okay, kid then. Kid, if anyone's "cherry picking" stats, it's you. We're talking about the impact a player has when he's in the game. That's what +/- is. Christ, you didn't even include FG% in your post.

Actually I am your daddy, boy. Wow, I missed FG%. That would have turned the tide. :rolleyes:

You can agree to disagree, and I'll agree that you just don't get what a low-post scorer is.

As long as you agree with yourself all is right in the world.