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TheBlueVan
02-06-2007, 11:24 PM
really good game, anyone else watching?

rmacomic
02-06-2007, 11:26 PM
I'm taking that as a NO.

u2sarajevo
02-06-2007, 11:28 PM
jinx

Thespiralgoeson
02-06-2007, 11:29 PM
Battle of the two best post-microfracture players in the league!

LonghornDub
02-06-2007, 11:30 PM
Outlaw on Portland just missed a WIDE OPEN point blank layup to win the game. Going to OT now.

sbjensen
02-06-2007, 11:33 PM
really good game, anyone else watching?
can't believe outlaw missed the bunny.

Flacolaco
02-06-2007, 11:38 PM
just a tease

god forbid portland help anyone out

suns win in OT against Portland.

good luck getting stops in the playoffs boys

FINtastic
02-06-2007, 11:38 PM
And who said Amare needed Nash to dominate opponents?

TheBlueVan
02-06-2007, 11:39 PM
lol, crackheads thats who

FINtastic
02-06-2007, 11:40 PM
This really sucks, Steve Nash goes down and we still aren't going to get any separation from the Suns.

TheBlueVan
02-06-2007, 11:45 PM
do we know whats wrong w/ him yet?

dirno2000
02-06-2007, 11:47 PM
No way the basketball gods were going to let Portland win that game after Outlaw missed a point blank layup.

Flacolaco
02-06-2007, 11:50 PM
This really sucks, Steve Nash goes down and we still aren't going to get any separation from the Suns.

Once again, who are they playing?

Portland? Atlanta?

they can win those games in their sleep.

rmacomic
02-06-2007, 11:58 PM
They had better. I like it when we're keeping up with who's in second.

dirno2000
02-07-2007, 12:00 AM
Barbosa as turned into clutch player. He's going to be a pain in the ass if we face them in the playoffs.

Again, the one bright spot: Stoudamire 45 minutes, Marion 46 minutes, Bell 46 minutes.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 12:03 AM
Barbosa as turned into clutch player. He's going to be a pain in the ass if we face them in the playoffs.

Again, the one bright spot: Stoudamire 45 minutes, Marion 46 minutes, Bell 46 minutes.D2K, I'm not sure I've ever bought into this myself. Where is the fine line between wearing yourself out and putting yourself in tremendous shape? Is it 8 minutes in an NBA game?

kg_veteran
02-07-2007, 12:05 AM
8 minutes over the course of 80 games is a lot of extra wear and tear.

dirno2000
02-07-2007, 12:07 AM
D2K, I'm not sure I've ever bought into this myself. Where is the fine line between wearing yourself out and putting yourself in tremendous shape? Is it 8 minutes in an NBA game?

Probably not in one NBA game but it has to have a cumulative effect right? If not, why not play your all-star 40+ minutes a night? Granted, there are some nights where the score doesn't warrant it but coaches have managed minutes for years. I have to assume that they're doing it for a reason.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 12:22 AM
Honestly, I'm not sure. As a player ages, maybe. I'm not sure I could run around now, at age 33, like I could ten years ago. Well, let me be honest. I know I can't. But then again, I'm not in the shape that an NBA player is in.

Honestly, what is an extra ten minutes a ball game, even over the course of a year, for a world class athlete?

I may be in the minority here, but I don't think it's a lot. For most players, anyway.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 12:26 AM
D2K, I wonder if you can shed some light here. Let's say you are an NFL player. You play on Sunday--a three-hour game. You come in and lift on Monday. You are off on Tuesday. You practice--probably in pads, and probably intensely--Wednesday and Thursday. You practice again on Friday, though maybe just a walkthrough. Off on Saturday. Play another three hours on Sunday.

Is that less hard than playing 45 minutes three times a week--with practices--in a non-contact NBA setting?

kg_veteran
02-07-2007, 12:31 AM
I think dirno made a great point. If it weren't a lot of wear and tear, why would coaches manage minutes?

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 12:40 AM
I think dirno made a great point. If it weren't a lot of wear and tear, why would coaches manage minutes?KG, coaches do a lot of things that don't ultimately seem to make a lot of sense.

On the surface of things, show me a good reason why an extra 24 or so minutes of game time a week will wear on a guy in the long run.

My guess is that you won't be able to come up with a good answer. The only answers I can think of are: A) An older player can only do so much, or B) More minutes played equals a greater likelihood of sustaining an injury.

Think about it. How many guys do you know who could play a full 48-minute-game three times a week and not be worse for the wear six months later? I dare say that in my younger days I was up to at least that much. And all the playing made me that much fitter.

nashtymavsfan13
02-07-2007, 12:41 AM
I think 10 minutes a game over 80 games is enough to make a difference, it's like playing 8 less games or something like that which I read somewhere.

dirno2000
02-07-2007, 12:43 AM
D2K, I wonder if you can shed some light here. Let's say you are an NFL player. You play on Sunday--a three-hour game. You come in and lift on Monday. You are off on Tuesday. You practice--probably in pads, and probably intensely--Wednesday and Thursday. You practice again on Friday, though maybe just a walkthrough. Off on Saturday. Play another three hours on Sunday.

Is that less hard than playing 45 minutes three times a week--with practices--in a non-contact NBA setting?

I don't know which is more or less hard. I do think the latter puts a different kind of strain on your body. Football is a series of violent collisions and any of them (along with making the wrong cut etc) could hurt you. OTOH, going up and down the court 3 or 4 night a week puts a constant strain on your ankles, knees and back and makes you more suceptable to wear and tear injuries.

Look at Raja Bell. Before last year he'd never averaged more than 28 minutes per game. then he goes to PXH and Dan Tony plays him 38 minutes. We all know what happened in the most inportant series of the year. Out of nowhere his calf goes out. Now can I guarantee you that it was because of the extra minutes? Of course not but it's possible. That's a chance that most coaches don't want to take.

DarenG
02-07-2007, 12:44 AM
do we know whats wrong w/ him yet?

Inflamation and swelling of the shoulder. He woke up that way the day of the Utah game and they said it just hasn't gotten any better since. Almost sounds like a minor tear or something.

Thespiralgoeson
02-07-2007, 12:45 AM
I don't know which is more or less hard. I do think the latter puts a different kind of strain on your body. Football is a series of violent collisions and any of them (along with making the wrong cut etc) could hurt you. OTOH, going up and down the court 3 or 4 night a week puts a constant strain on your ankles, knees and back and makes you more suceptable to wear and tear injuries.

Bingo.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 12:46 AM
I'm not trying to be a dick here, but how often do you hear of a coach who doesn't run his team in practice, because he wants to keep them fresh for games? For that matter, how often do you hear of a coach who cancels practices because his team has hard games?

Not often, that's how. We aren't talking beer league guys here. We are talking about world class athletes. Personally, it seems almost laughable to me to expect that athletes of this caliber would diminish by playing 120 minutes of court time a week. Court time, mind you. We aren't talking about marathons here. Lot of starts and stops, lot of standing around.

I don't buy it.

nashtymavsfan13
02-07-2007, 12:49 AM
Yeah, the running of the hard gym floor surface puts constant strain on ankles, knees and back like dirno said and over time they start to become fatigue from the constant strain. Any less strain (as a result of less minutes) is always helpful. It's also easier to recover from the wear and tear the less of it there is. So playing 35 minutes a night is easier to recover from than 45 min even if it's only 10 min less.

nashtymavsfan13
02-07-2007, 12:51 AM
I'm not trying to be a dick here, but how often do you hear of a coach who doesn't run his team in practice, because he wants to keep them fresh for games? For that matter, how often do you hear of a coach who cancels practices because his team has hard games?

Not often, that's how. We aren't talking beer league guys here. We are talking about world class athletes. Personally, it seems almost laughable to me to expect that athletes of this caliber would diminish by playing 120 minutes of court time a week. Court time, mind you. We aren't talking about marathons here. Lot of starts and stops, lot of standing around.

I don't buy it.

We hear of coaches taking it easy on players in practice all the time after they've had a bunch of games in a row. The constant wear and tear of running on the gym floor builds up playing that many minutes and takes longer to recover from. The players could probably easily play that many minutes, but they wouldn't be 100% effective as they would be with the less minutes.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 12:52 AM
But...they would never cut practice 10 minutes short, would they?

fluid.forty.one
02-07-2007, 12:59 AM
You're right Chum. Avery is retarded for not playing Dirk 48 minutes a night.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 01:01 AM
You're right Chum. Avery is retarded for not playing Dirk 48 minutes a night.Bill Russell played 44 or 45 a game for most of his career, and exactly 42.3 for his career.

Think he suffered?

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 01:08 AM
Havlicek played two years straight, starting every game, at 45 minutes plus. Played 80 the next year at 42 minutes. Did he suffer?

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 01:11 AM
Elvin Hayes played 44+ minutes for 10 years straight, almost never missing a game. He's in the Hall of Fame.

fluid.forty.one
02-07-2007, 01:12 AM
Chum, it sounds like you should be an NBA coach. Obviously you know something they don't.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 01:13 AM
And Iverson is 42 for his career. Did he ever wind down late?

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 01:14 AM
Chum, it sounds like you should be an NBA coach. Obviously you know something they don't.Is that your way of not saying anything while trying to pretend you are saying something?

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 01:15 AM
But...they would never cut practice 10 minutes short, would they?

Depends on what you mean by cutting 10 minutes short. For a lot of teams, the practices towards the end of the season are drastically shorter than they were at the beginning of the season. Why? Because the coaches know that they walk a fine line of burning the players out. They may be extremely well-conditioned athletes, but the NBA season is a tremendous grind.

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 01:17 AM
Elvin Hayes played 44+ minutes for 10 years straight, almost never missing a game. He's in the Hall of Fame.

Michael Finley led the league in minutes for a few years towards the end of the 90s. I think some of that wear and tear early on led to a much earlier decline in his playing skills than he should have experienced.

fluid.forty.one
02-07-2007, 01:18 AM
Is that your way of not saying anything while trying to pretend you are saying something?

I thought my point was pretty clear, I'll try to make it even easier to understand. If the NBA coaches don't play their starters 48 minutes a game anymore, there must be a reason for it. There must be a reason that some of the kids who played for the USA are complaining about being tired, or on their second wind. It's not like the FIBA courts have a gravitational field around them that make it harder to play in. NBA players suffer from fatigue as the season progresses, and professionals, who know a LOT more than you or I do, rest the players for (I'm assuming) that reason.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 01:21 AM
Michael Finley led the league in minutes for a few years towards the end of the 90s. I think some of that wear and tear early on led to a much earlier decline in his playing skills than he should have experienced.He was an iron man, to be sure. But how did that lead to a decline in his skills? I think age has led to a decline in his skills. Do you presume that age can be held at the door via fewer minutes played?

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 01:23 AM
The problem with that was that he wasn't exactly that old when his decline began. And decline in his skills is probably the wrong terminology here. His body is a lot more injury prone, and his athleticism isn't what it used to be.

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 01:24 AM
Do you presume that age can be held at the door via fewer minutes played?

For the most part, yes. That wear and tear adds up after a while, and your body can only take so much of it before it breaks down. But there are also a lot of other factors that come into play (such as offseason conditioning regimen, diet, etc.)

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 01:26 AM
I thought my point was pretty clear, I'll try to make it even easier to understand. If the NBA coaches don't play their starters 48 minutes a game anymore, there must be a reason for it. There must be a reason that some of the kids who played for the USA are complaining about being tired, or on their second wind. It's not like the FIBA courts have a gravitational field around them that make it harder to play in. NBA players suffer from fatigue as the season progresses, and professionals, who know a LOT more than you or I do, rest the players for (I'm assuming) that reason.You may be right. But if they truly wanted to address fatigue (as opposed to a player being out of shape), they would deal with it like baseball does, and give the guy a day off every now and again. I would think that three or more days off in a row, every once in a while, would do him a whole lot more good than a few saved minutes in a game he is already warmed up to play and playing in.

But nobody in basketball does that, do they?

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 01:27 AM
For the most part, yes. That wear and tear adds up after a while, and your body can only take so much of it before it breaks down.Why would anyone ever work out, then?

You are losing me on this point.

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 01:28 AM
And honestly, the biggest problem with D'Antoni's rotation isn't really that his starters are getting too many minutes. Guys like Amare (assuming the knee is alright and it looks to be), Barbosa, and Marion are all probably young enough to handle a few extra minutes at this point in their career. The real problem is that he seems to be neglecting his bench. God forbid if they ever suffer an injury to one of their main players...

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 01:31 AM
Why would anyone ever work out, then?

You are losing me on this point.

What do you mean by working out? Lifting or playing ball? Regardless, there aren't many workouts that replicate the exact intensity of an NBA basketball game. Repeatedly pounding your joints on a hardwood surface is hard on the body. Not to mention, every extra minute they are out on the court is an extra minute they have a chance to get injured.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 01:42 AM
What do you think they do in practice?

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 01:45 AM
Do you really think what they do in practice matches the intensity and duration of real games? First of all, they aren't scrimmaging all practice long. Coaches have way more on their daily agenda than just scrimmaging. Second of all, even when they do scrimmage, I imagine the intensity is a little bit less than it is when you have 20,000 screaming fans in the building. Just kind of human nature.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 01:52 AM
What do they do they do in about six minutes of court time?

Is it really all that strenous, that it trumps practice and everything else and keeps them awake at night?

Six minutes of court time?

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 02:03 AM
The problem though chum is that you can't just call it 6 minutes of court time. It's 6 minutes of court time on top of 40 minutes they already played. That ends up being a lot of minutes.

Your argument is akin to a guy who is squatting 890 pounds and wants to hit the magical 900 pound mark. In a sense it's just 10 pounds, what's 10 pounds to him? But when he's already squatting 890 pounds, that extra 10 pounds seems like a pretty big hurdle. When an NBA player has already played his guts out for 40 minutes, and then he has to add 6 more minutes on top of that, it ain't an easy task. Doing it every once in a while won't really hurt him, but If he has to do it repeatedly, you have to admit it could pose a threat for some physical or even mental fatigue. And chum, coaches do consider how many games the team has been playing when they are making the practice schedule. That's why coaches give days off, it ain't because they just want to be well-liked by the players.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 02:07 AM
Not sure I get the lifting analogy.

Show me an example of when an NBA coach simply says "This guy has the night off," like they do in baseball.

And also reconcile to me how greats like Russell and Havlicek managed to play 44+ minutes night in and night out with no ill effects.

Gimme a break. As conditioned as today's athletes are, I bet they ALL could play 48 minutes a game, all year long.

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 02:10 AM
Not sure I get the lifting analogy.

You are saying it's just a straw. I'm saying it's the straw that broke the camel's back. Get it now?

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 02:13 AM
Show me an example of when an NBA coach simply says "This guy has the night off," like they do in baseball.

You don't read the newspaper and see where Avery gives Dirk practices off? That's the easiest example that comes to mind without really having to rack my brain. Basketball isn't an everyday sport like baseball so they don't exactly need to give them games off.

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 02:13 AM
Gimme a break. As conditioned as today's athletes are, I bet they ALL could play 48 minutes a game, all year long.

You love you some hyperbole, don't you chum?

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 02:15 AM
You are saying it's a just a straw. I'm saying it's the straw that broke the camel's back. Get it now?Wow. I like obtuseness as much as the next guy, but I generally need something to tie it to.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 02:18 AM
You don't read the newspaper and see where Avery gives Dirk practices off? That's the easiest example that comes to mind without really having to rack my brain. Basketball isn't an everyday sport like baseball so they don't exactly need to give them games off.Practice? You're talking about practice? I'm talking about guys who give their all each game, like it's their last. And you're talking about practice??

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 02:20 AM
Practice? You're talking about practice? I'm talking about guys who give their all each game, like it's their last. And you're talking about practice??

I thought one of your original points was that practice was going to add to the fatigue (in a world where fatigue existed)?

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 02:28 AM
FINtastic, my claim is that there are guys who don't need to come out of games much. There are guys who aren't broken down by playing 44 minutes two or three times a week.

AI averages 42 minutes for his career. That's...CAREER. I dare say that the guy never needs to ask out of a game for fatigue. If he can walk, he's playing. And he still doesn't live up to the standards of those who have come before him.

I'm all for giving a blow here and there. But a 48-minute NBA game is not a marathon. It amuses me to think that some people believe a world-class athlete would not be up to the task.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 02:29 AM
I thought one of your original points was that practice was going to add to the fatigue (in a world where fatigue existed)?Swish...

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 02:38 AM
AI averages 42 minutes for his career. That's...CAREER. I dare say that the guy never needs to ask out of a game for fatigue. If he can walk, he's playing. And he still doesn't live up to the standards of those who have come before him.

The problem is that you are taking a guy who people consider a freak for being able to do this, and now you are saying that everyone in the league should be able to average more than that. This isn't the best selling point to your argument.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 02:40 AM
Upthread I posted guys who averaged 44 and 45 minutes.

Sorry, your counterargument does not stand.

chumdawg
02-07-2007, 02:43 AM
In short, FINtastic, if some of the best to ever grace the hardwoods of the NBA have been able to average 44+ for a season, Dirk can do it. Nash can do it. Marion can do it. Amare can do it. Basically, whatever good player you can think of, except maybe Yao, can do it.

Gaddabout
02-07-2007, 03:59 AM
Something to take into consideration is the NBA season has become considerably longer from training camp to end of post season. The travel, the constant game-level conditioning from October to June, that has more of an overall grinding affect on the body than actual minutes played in a game.

I think the tempo the Suns play and the limited rotation could end up biting in the butt in the longhaul. Nash mentioned it on the recent East Coast road trip that running EVERY SINGLE TIME is a lot of work game-in and game-out. I think a bigger key for the Suns in the playoffs will be getting out of the first round in as few games as possible. Extend the first round and you're going to be talking about a tired team for the rest of the playoffs.

u2sarajevo
02-07-2007, 07:02 AM
This managed minutes discussion is interesting. I assume that when you have a coach that has won championships (implying that he knows what it takes to get through a grind of a season with the result being a ring) and he is managing minutes of players that it is for a reason. That is interesting that older players averaged more minutes....

I wonder if that extra game time had any cumulative ill effects on their career.... could they have played more years if they had their minutes trimmed? Not sure the answer on that but I think it's something to look at.

What I do know is that when Steve Nash played for my team when we reached the postseason he seemed to wear down. I assumed it was because of fatigue of a long drawn out season, but perhaps he was just being defended better? Bibby always seemed to have his number.

fluid.forty.one
02-07-2007, 09:34 AM
I assume that when you have a coach that has won championships (implying that he knows what it takes to get through a grind of a season with the result being a ring) and he is managing minutes of players that it is for a reason.


Balderdash! Chum must know something they don't.

Honestly though, FIN is right about AI, and some of the other guys you posted (russell) played in a league that is very different from today. Different level of athleticism, more games, longer season, etc.

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 10:01 AM
Upthread I posted guys who averaged 44 and 45 minutes.

Sorry, your counterargument does not stand.

You are right, it's hard to make much of a counterargument in the face of three whole examples.

I still haven't seen you bring one example that really backs up your 48 minutes a game assertion.

FINtastic
02-07-2007, 10:04 AM
What I do know is that when Steve Nash played for my team when we reached the postseason he seemed to wear down. I assumed it was because of fatigue of a long drawn out season, but perhaps he was just being defended better? Bibby always seemed to have his number.

Yeah, I have to wonder what chum thinks about the way his favorite coach subscribed to this theory in regards to his favorite player.

TheBlueVan
02-07-2007, 12:36 PM
as far as older players playing more minutes, you should look at the style of game they played. it was FAR less physical, players are in much better shape, stronger, and, most importantly, heavier now. can you see Shaq logging bill russel minutes? theres absolutely no way...

FreshJive
02-07-2007, 11:05 PM
Chumdawg, in 8 minutes an NBA player could send you 1440 pms telling you that you are gay and stuff.

DarenG
02-08-2007, 12:15 PM
I think the Suns have not been a victim of wearing down in the regular or post season yet. Nash has repeatedly stated the last 2 years he felt great. It's true the Suns will TRY and run more then any team in the NBA. The reality of it is they can't run every time down the court and they are forced into half court sets the majority of the time down the court. The Suns are only behind San Antonio with points in the paint. Meaning they post up, pick and roll or whatever much more then they actually run. The only difference is they are committed to trying to run on you every single time down the court.

If they lose in the playoffs it won't be because they are tired. It will be because the other team was simply better.