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Windmill360
02-14-2007, 11:38 PM
What's new.

Didn't he throw a tv when he was playing for Orlando? That was like the same season we traded him.

MIAMI HERALD FILE PHOTO

'I AM HOMOPHOBIC': 'I don't like gay people and I don't like to be around gay people,' Tim Hardaway said.

Retired Miami Heat guard Tim Hardaway, known for his candor, said on a radio show Wednesday that he would not want a gay player on his team, would ask for him to be traded, and went so far as to say: ``You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known. I don't like gay people and I don't like to be around gay people. I am homophobic. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States.''

Hardaway was a guest with host/Herald columnist Dan Le Batard on Sports Talk 790 The Ticket, and at the end of the interview, Le Batard asked Hardaway how he would deal with a gay player, in light of last week's disclosure by retired NBA center John Amaechi that he is gay.

''First of all, I wouldn't want him on my team,'' Hardaway replied. ``And second of all, if he was on my team, I would really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that is right. I don't think he should be in the locker room while we are in the locker room. But stuff like that is going on and there's a lot of other people I hear that are like that and still in the closet and don't want to come out of the closet, but you know I just leave that alone.''

Asked what he would do if he had a gay teammate, Hardaway said he would ask for the player to be traded or to be bought out of his contract.

''Something has to give,'' he said. ``And I think the majority of players would ask for him to be traded or they would want to be traded. Or buy him out of his contract and just let him go. Something has to give. If you have 12 other ballplayers in your locker room that are upset and can't concentrate and always worried about him in the locker room or on the court it's going to be hard for your teammates to win and accept him as a teammate.''

Hardaway is the first NBA player -- current or former -- to make anti-gay statements since Amaechi's news came out. In fact, most of the players and coaches quoted last week, including Heat center Shaquille O'Neal, were supportive of Amaechi and said they would not be bothered by a gay teammate.

What if the gay player were a great player, Hardaway was asked.

''If he were that great something would still have to give,'' he said. ``People would feel uncomfortable with that. If you're not gay, nobody in that locker room would feel comfortable with that person on your team.''

Amaechi probably will not be surprised when he reads Hardaway's comments. He said in a phone interview Tuesday he believes there is still a lot of homophobia in society and in professional sports locker rooms.

''We are much further behind than I'd like,'' Amaechi said. ``People in America and England [where Amaechi grew up] would like to think racism is over, sexism is over, and homophobia is over, but it's not. My coming out will show that gay people don't all look like Jack from Will and Grace. Some of us are big, athletic men, and that should be OK.''

Amaechi said he had not heard from a single former teammate or NBA player, that he had only heard from former coach Doc Rivers. He challenged straight athletes ''who feel able'' to stand up for gay rights.

''I would like professional male athletes to be active supporters, and that doesn't mean putting a rainbow decal on their car,'' he said. ``It means letting other guys in the locker room know that it's not OK to make gay jokes, that it's hurtful, and that it's not OK to be homophobic.

``But it's hard to get straight guys to step up. When men stood by women during the suffrage movement, they were called progressive and bold. When whites stood by blacks, they were heroes. But a straight guy standing up for a gay guy faces discrimination, and that's a big part of the battle we're fighting.''

Thespiralgoeson
02-14-2007, 11:50 PM
What a nice guy.

capitalcity
02-15-2007, 12:11 AM
ESPN just reported the story without reporting that he was previously on the ESPN payroll.

chumdawg
02-15-2007, 02:21 AM
From everything I've read, Amaechi isn't doing the gays any good by his self-serving, nellie-acting, asking-for-it-and-then-bitching-about-it brand of bullshit.

Maybe there are still some places gays aren't welcome, and maybe that's not so bad a thing.

(If they are all like Amaechi, it's definitely not a bad thing at all.)

Thespiralgoeson
02-15-2007, 02:41 AM
From everything I've read, Amaechi isn't doing the gays any good by his self-serving, nellie-acting, asking-for-it-and-then-bitching-about-it brand of bullshit.

Maybe there are still some places gays aren't welcome, and maybe that's not so bad a thing.

(If they are all like Amaechi, it's definitely not a bad thing at all.)

Not sure what you're saying, Chum. I guess he does come across as sort of whiny, but that doesn't mean he's not sincere. Or are you saying that he's just doing all of this to sell his book?

EricaLubarsky
02-15-2007, 03:18 AM
How did Amaechi ask for it?

HexNBA
02-15-2007, 06:28 AM
From everything I've read, Amaechi isn't doing the gays any good by his self-serving, nellie-acting, asking-for-it-and-then-bitching-about-it brand of bullshit.

Maybe there are still some places gays aren't welcome, and maybe that's not so bad a thing.

(If they are all like Amaechi, it's definitely not a bad thing at all.)

Just..wow.

Anyway, I'm sure Hardaway will have some bullshit apology soon but these comments are pretty clear cut. Not much recovering to be done from there, but besides cancelled appearances in some cases I doubt it will have much of an effect.

untitled
02-15-2007, 07:46 AM
Hardaway's comments reminded me of that ESPNews commercial with the sports fans "talking out of their asses". I cannot figure out why people care so much about this, even if you do believe it's a sin. How does another person's bedroom activity affect your ability to play basketball as a team?

jthig32
02-15-2007, 08:42 AM
How unfortunate.

And I disagree Hex, I think Hardaway has a hard time recovering from this in any way. The NBA already cut him off from his appearances surrounding the All Star game.

dude1394
02-15-2007, 08:54 AM
Oh he's toast. You can be a deviant and you can be celebrated, but say that you don't agree that being a deviant is okay and you get roasted.

:)

nikeball
02-15-2007, 08:55 AM
Hardaway's comments reminded me of that ESPNews commercial with the sports fans "talking out of their asses". I cannot figure out why people care so much about this, even if you do believe it's a sin. How does another person's bedroom activity affect your ability to play basketball as a team?

I agree. Just because you are gay does not mean you are attracted to every same-sex member out there. Just like we (straight men) are not attracted to every woman out there..nor do we check them all out. However, in the NBA/team sports there is that close bond, I can see how some people may be a little phobic. I guess it could mess with the chemistry..but playing basketball is playing basketball. Usually you forget everything once you get into the game. I am surprised no one is bringing up gays in the military (in the news). Metaphorically speaking you are "going into battle" in both senses...and it is a taboo to be gay in both settings.

Tim Hardaway's sentiments are I believe very sterotypical and close-minded. I do believe being gay is a sin (but we all sin everyday with other aspects of our lives), but Gays are people too and should deserve to have the same opportunities that we all have.

jthig32
02-15-2007, 08:58 AM
Oh he's toast. You can be a deviant and you can be celebrated, but say that you don't agree that being a deviant is okay and you get roasted.

:)

Hmm, not sure how much you're kidding here.

He didn't say he didn't think it was ok, he said he hated them.

I myself don't think it's ok, but it's also not ok to hate people because of their choices, IMO.

dude1394
02-15-2007, 08:58 AM
Just like we (straight men) are not attracted to every woman out there..nor do we check them all out.

Speak for yourself.

Flacolaco
02-15-2007, 09:05 AM
Wow. that certainly was very....honest

wow.

dude1394
02-15-2007, 09:15 AM
Hmm, not sure how much you're kidding here.

He didn't say he didn't think it was ok, he said he hated them.

I myself don't think it's ok, but it's also not ok to hate people because of their choices, IMO.

Well I'm not kidding that it's a deviant lifestyle and I don't condone it. I don't hate someone for having that lifestyle but I'm not going to accept it as anything other than deviant. And it has been celebrated and promoted in our society likes it's the latest greatest thing which I resent.

As far as hate, I assume that's just his way of saying he's not comfortable around them. And certainly not comfortable in the locker room around them.

jthig32
02-15-2007, 09:26 AM
Well I'm not kidding that it's a deviant lifestyle and I don't condone it. I don't hate someone for having that lifestyle but I'm not going to accept it as anything other than deviant. And it has been celebrated and promoted in our society likes it's the latest greatest thing which I resent.

As far as hate, I assume that's just his way of saying he's not comfortable around them. And certainly not comfortable in the locker room around them.

Well, if that's how he feels then he should have said that. I don't have a huge problem someone saying they're uncomfortable around a homosexual.

But saying you hate someone for choices they make is not a good idea. If says he's uncomfortable he probably gets a bit less criticism, and I would actually defend his right to feel that way.

I don't condone it either, btw, but sin is sin, imo. It doesn't really make me uncomfortable to be around, as I do have a family member that chooses to live that lifestyle.

I would be pretty uncomfortable sharing a locker room though.

Usually Lurkin
02-15-2007, 09:29 AM
Just because you are gay does not mean you are attracted to every same-sex member out there. Just like we (straight men) are not attracted to every woman out there..nor do we check them all out.
Do you think heterosexual men and women should be ok sharing a lockerroom with straight members of the opposite sex? If some straight dude wanted to change in the women's lockerroom and shower with them, should he be allowed to? Even if he says he's not attracted to the woman-version of Greg Ostertag?

mary
02-15-2007, 09:31 AM
From everything I've read, Amaechi isn't doing the gays any good by his self-serving, nellie-acting, asking-for-it-and-then-bitching-about-it brand of bullshit.

Maybe there are still some places gays aren't welcome, and maybe that's not so bad a thing.

(If they are all like Amaechi, it's definitely not a bad thing at all.)

Can you give us a sample of everything you've read?


Hardaway is obviously a hate-filled bigot, but I'm sure there are plenty of people that share his opinion.

That aside, I do have to wonder how a gay guy would be accepted in the NBA. If you want to look at homosexuality as being a "transgression", then I think it would depend largely upon who that player is how important he is to the team's success. For example, Quincy Carter wasn't really released because he smoked pot, he was released because he smoked pot and he was a spare.

In sports, you will be tolerated only as much as your production allows you to be. What if Dirk came out of the closet - right now, while in the midst of a historically successful season, would you really think a teammate, even someone like Hardaway, would demand that he be traded? Or use a separate locker room? Or retire? I think its pretty unlikely. What if Shaq came out, or Dwayne Wade, or Kobe, or Steve Nash? These are all players that are vital to their teams success, not to mention their revenue streams.

On the other hand, someone like Brian Scalabrine announced he was gay, I would think it would be much more likely that his teammates, and the organization itself, would reject him.

DevinHarriswillstart
02-15-2007, 09:57 AM
Tim Hardaway is a dumbass, and he sucked on our team. What a has-been does for fun these days.

jacktruth
02-15-2007, 09:57 AM
Hardaway's comments reminded me of that ESPNews commercial with the sports fans "talking out of their asses". I cannot figure out why people care so much about this, even if you do believe it's a sin. How does another person's bedroom activity affect your ability to play basketball as a team?
I'm not siding with Hardaway on this, but why do we have seperate restrooms for men and women?

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 10:13 AM
for purposes of a little disclosure, I'm not necessarily opposed to homosexuality, and in certain cases I'm actually quite in favor of it (http://dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?p=666716&highlight=poster#post666716)....

but......setting side my personal feelings, or any others' opinions, I've been wondering about the ramifications of Hardaway's comments for the near-to-long term.

obviously, there will follow the obligatory displays of shock and outrage as journalists and their ilk learn that relatively young, testosterone laden african american males aren't card carrying, rainbow wearing members of GLAAD.

that is to say, i may be a bit surprised that tim hardaway has honestly expressed his opinion, but i don't for a second imagine that he is the only nba ball who shares the opinion.

hereafter, i humbly predict, we'll come to see that tim hardaway has (ahem) come out of the closet. he's set the bar.....anything short of "I hate gay people" will become an acceptable part of the dialogue. Let's call it the Hardaway line....any NBA player will be relatively free to say exactly what he's thinking so long as he doesn't step on the hardaway line, so long as he doesn't say "I hate gay people."

Hence, it will now not be terribly controversial for a player to say "I don't want any queers on my team....if a guy wants to be a girly boy, he should play for the pheonix suns."

cheers

Usually Lurkin
02-15-2007, 11:01 AM
I don't know, alexamenos. I think it just as likely that noone will make any comment at all for fear of getting pasted across the top of the drudgereport.

Mavdog
02-15-2007, 11:10 AM
what if tim hardaway said "I hate chinese people".

people who are gay do not make a choice to be gay. they simply are, just like tim didn't make a choice on being black.

it is ironic of course that tim expresses such disdain and prejudice against a group of people that he doesn't know as individuals.

yes tim hardaway, you have a lot in common with people such as david duke.

chumdawg
02-15-2007, 11:14 AM
It's getting to the point where it takes less courage to choose a gay lifestyle than it does to speak out against it.

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 11:18 AM
I don't know, alexamenos. I think it just as likely that noone will make any comment at all for fear of getting pasted across the top of the drudgereport.

...not today certainly, but down the line I think Timmy's provided cover for all the, ummm...., player-haters....

lessay Timmy didn't say what Timmy said......if Elton Brand (eg) says "I'd really rather not have a homosexual on our team. I think it would be an unnecessary distraction and an impediment to our play as a team."... then a bunch of people jump all over elton saying that he's a queer bashing homophobe....and it's easier to say that Elton is a homo-hater if the standard for homo-hatin' is or becomes "i don't want to shower with a homo."

but thanks to timmy, the standard for homo-hatin' is "I hate Gay people". hence, elton can say.....

"I ain't saying that I hate gay people like Tim Hardaway. I'm just saying that having a homo on our team would be an impediment to our play...."

now, we know that tim hardaway is gay-bashing homo-hater, and we know that Elton ain't saying what Timmy's saying, ergo logically Elton ain't gay hatin'.

time will tell, i suppose.

jthig32
02-15-2007, 11:20 AM
what if tim hardaway said "I hate chinese people".

people who are gay do not make a choice to be gay. they simply are, just like tim didn't make a choice on being black.

This is opinion, not fact. There are many people that share your opinion, and there are many who do not.


Doesn't change how much I dislike what he said.

WurzburgBorn
02-15-2007, 11:26 AM
Tim Hardaway's comments really do beg the question...is he gay? Not that there's anything wrong with being gay, but you typically only here these kinds of comments from people who hate themselves because they are gay, and refuse to acknowledge it.

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 11:39 AM
Tim Hardaway's comments really do beg the question...is he gay? Not that there's anything wrong with being gay, but you typically only here these kinds of comments from people who hate themselves because they are gay, and refuse to acknowledge it.

this is so over-hyped....it amounts to little more than a taunt, "not only are you an evil bigot for hating homosexuals, but you're also a fag."

i dare so the vast majority of men are disgusted by the prospect of one dude popping another dude in the butt, present company included. It's really as simple as that. It's an aesthetic thing and it has nothing to do with any repressed desire.

alternatively stated, i've got the good sense and common courtesy to not publicize every bit of the sick, twisted and deviant heterosexual stuff that runs through the dark recesses of my mind....perhaps the b-effers could do us all a little courtesy and keep their fudge packing to themselves.

cheers

dude1394
02-15-2007, 11:48 AM
what if tim hardaway said "I hate chinese people".

people who are gay do not make a choice to be gay. they simply are, just like tim didn't make a choice on being black.

that is your "opinion". Being chinese is not a "choice"

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 11:56 AM
so Mary, inasmuch as this is a public forum, and I'm quite content to make my comments public, perhaps you can share what you take issue with?

is it that I think the taunt "the reason you hate homosexuals is that your a repressed homo" is a bit trite?

or is it that I think the image of one dude popping another dude is just really gross?

or is it that sometimes I prefer to use phrases like "fudge packing" rather than searching incessantly for some politically correct way of describing things?

or perhaps its something else.....

cheers

WurzburgBorn
02-15-2007, 12:20 PM
this is so over-hyped....it amounts to little more than a taunt, "not only are you an evil bigot for hating homosexuals, but you're also a fag."

i dare so the vast majority of men are disgusted by the prospect of one dude popping another dude in the butt, present company included. It's really as simple as that. It's an aesthetic thing and it has nothing to do with any repressed desire.

alternatively stated, i've got the good sense and common courtesy to not publicize every bit of the sick, twisted and deviant heterosexual stuff that runs through the dark recesses of my mind....perhaps the b-effers could do us all a little courtesy and keep their fudge packing to themselves.

cheers

It's not a taunt at all. I have met people that this is true of, and I'm not talkig about speculation I'm talking about seeing people come out to their friends and apologizing for having said terrible things about homosexuals in the past. I know people like to think it's a taunt, or it's just something somebody picked up from the American Beauty movie, but it happens every day.

Edit: I don't see any b-effers talking about gay sex anywhere. To what do you refer? For the most part, they do keep it to themselves. If you're referring to Amaechi, it's not like he's talking at all about the "aesthetics" that you refer to.

untitled
02-15-2007, 12:22 PM
I'm not siding with Hardaway on this, but why do we have seperate restrooms for men and women?
Because men stand and women sit?

I lived with a gay guy for 3 years in college (and shared a bathroom with him - Oh, the horror of it all!). I never once got the feeling that he was attracted to me.

Even if a teammate was attracted to another player, as long as they both know that nothing will ever come of it, who cares? They're human beings, give them some credit for having a little bit of self-control.

bernardos70
02-15-2007, 12:25 PM
Do you think heterosexual men and women should be ok sharing a lockerroom with straight members of the opposite sex? If some straight dude wanted to change in the women's lockerroom and shower with them, should he be allowed to? Even if he says he's not attracted to the woman-version of Greg Ostertag?

A very valid point indeed......

Now, I hear choice and not a choice. I think people who say it is a choice are in fact right. It is a choice, just like it is a choice to be straight. If you are a man who likes men, you can still choose to only have sex with women. Much the same way a straight man can choose to have gay sex, even though he's not gay. A bit far fetched, but who you have sex with is definitely your choice. Who you'd like to have sex with....... another matter entirely.

WurzburgBorn
02-15-2007, 12:27 PM
re: same sex restrooms
Under the right conditions, there's nothing wrong with them. In my college dorm, I had conversations with girls that continued into the restroom, talking from seperate stalls.
The only problems occur when you have immature people using them, which obviously can happen and means that they're not practical right now for the public, in a sexually repressed society.

untitled
02-15-2007, 12:28 PM
How is fudge-packing between two men anymore disgusting than fudge-packing between a man and woman? Nobody's member wants to suffocate on feces.

WurzburgBorn
02-15-2007, 12:30 PM
How is fudge-packing between two men anymore disgusting than fudge-packing between a man and woman? Nobody's member wants to suffocate on feces.

See alexomenos, almost always its heterosexuals who bring up the aesthetics. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with that. ;)

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 12:50 PM
It's not a taunt at all. I have met people that this is true of, and I'm not talkig about speculation I'm talking about seeing people come out to their friends and apologizing for having said terrible things about homosexuals in the past. I know people like to think it's a taunt, or it's just something somebody picked up from the American Beauty movie, but it happens every day.

Edit: I don't see any b-effers talking about gay sex anywhere. To what do you refer? For the most part, they do keep it to themselves. If you're referring to Amaechi, it's not like he's talking at all about the "aesthetics" that you refer to.

I really didn't mean to suggest you were taunting Hardaway, just that the popularity of the pop-diagnosis that "so-n-so is a homo-hater because he's a repressed homo" is a result of it being quite a useful taunt.

....

in re your earlier comment: "Tim Hardaway's comments really do beg the question...is he gay?"

I would say that there is positively nothing in hardaway's comments to suggest he's gay and everything in his comments suggest that he is not gay.

No-one on earth would ever suggest David Duke is a repressed black man, nor would anyone suggest that Mahmud Ahmadinejad is a repressed jew. Why then is the default presumption that someone who hates homos is a homo?

certainly, a certain percentage of homosexuals are responsible for a great deal of homobashing. But if, say, 10% of males are homos, and if 50% of males hate homos, then it can't possibly be that all homo-haters are homos because there are more homo-hating males than homo males.

(and it also can't be that really 50% of all males are homos, because if that were the case there would be no titty-bars and titty-bars are a thriving business)

hence, the presumption that homo-hating is due to repressed homoism is not a rational position, but instead a product of something else....

....to wit, the taunt. every dude, and every dudette for that matter, knows that calling a guy a "fag" is a dis'. Dissin' a homo-hater by calling him homo is what it is, i submit. Dressing it in pop-psychology makes it no less of a taunt.

as for talk of gay-sex....first, let's not pretend that sexual orientation and sexual practices are two discrete subjects. amechi certainly didn't get a book deal because he has a penchant for interior decorating. when a guy writes a book, and the basis of the book is his sexual preferences, then one cannot say that he's keeping it to himself. What a guy does with his own dick is his own business, but once he consults a publicist it's no longer just his business.

Usually Lurkin
02-15-2007, 12:50 PM
Because men stand and women sit?

I lived with a gay guy for 3 years in college (and shared a bathroom with him - Oh, the horror of it all!). I never once got the feeling that he was attracted to me.

Even if a teammate was attracted to another player, as long as they both know that nothing will ever come of it, who cares? They're human beings, give them some credit for having a little bit of self-control.
so you're allright with some dude using the womens lockerroom?

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 12:52 PM
How is fudge-packing between two men anymore disgusting than fudge-packing between a man and woman? Nobody's member wants to suffocate on feces.

it's not any less disgusting in my estimation....if a buddy of mine told me that he likes to pop his wife in the butt, i'd tell him to keep the sick stuff to his-self.

the thing with male homos is....you know where it's going, no further explanation is necessary ergo it's intrinsically gross.

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 01:06 PM
See alexomenos, almost always its heterosexuals who bring up the aesthetics. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with that. ;)

and all i'm saying is that from aesthetic view of things, sometimes homosexuality is great (http://dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?p=666716&highlight=poster#post666716).

WurzburgBorn
02-15-2007, 01:08 PM
No-one on earth would ever suggest David Duke is a repressed black man, nor would anyone suggest that Mahmud Ahmadinejad is a repressed jew. Why then is the default presumption that someone who hates homos is a homo?

You have to admit though that it's a lot easier for a gay man to pretend he's not gay then for a black man to pretend he's not black, eh? Colin Powell notwithstanding. ;)

certainly, a certain percentage of homosexuals are responsible for a great deal of homobashing. But if, say, 10% of males are homos, and if 50% of males hate homos, then it can't possibly be that all homo-haters are homos because there are more homo-hating males than homo males.
Fair enough. I didn't mean to imply it was always the case.

amechi certainly didn't get a book deal because he has a penchant for interior decorating.
lol. That's funny.

Still, I just don't have a problem with what the guy has done. For one thing, it's like Cuban said, if you're a pro athlete who is gay, there's a lot of money to make from that! Would you turn that down? I don't think I would if I was gay and could play basketball to save my life.
But I think we're kidding ourselves if we say it's only about money and publicity. I don't see how what John has done cannot be a good thing for people growing up gay who happen to like to play sports, maybe even have a dream to play professionally one day.

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 01:13 PM
wurzborg -- duly noted, cheers....

jthig32
02-15-2007, 01:17 PM
A very valid point indeed......

Now, I hear choice and not a choice. I think people who say it is a choice are in fact right. It is a choice, just like it is a choice to be straight. If you are a man who likes men, you can still choose to only have sex with women. Much the same way a straight man can choose to have gay sex, even though he's not gay. A bit far fetched, but who you have sex with is definitely your choice. Who you'd like to have sex with....... another matter entirely.

Well, there are also people that like to have sex with their siblings, and like to have sex with animals and, for a less out there example, like to have sex with other people's spouses.

Whether they think it's right or wrong, and whether they choose to, is up to them.

So I guess in a way, we agree.

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 01:22 PM
Well, there are also people that ... like to have sex with animals.

for the record, we prefer the term "inter-species erotica."

cheers

sifling
02-15-2007, 01:57 PM
As a gay person who lurks on this board, this is fascinating discourse. I had no idea so much brazen ignorance, hatred and bigotry remained. I am truly shocked and saddened.

For all you who think homosexuality is a "choice," ask yourself this simple question:
Who would ever "choose" a lifestyle that leaves you vulnerable to this degree of hatred and bashing? Who would willingly, voluntarily raise their hand and exclaim: "Yes! I'd love to endure that for the rest of my life!"

This is my first and last post. Clearly, my type isn't welcome here.

Mavdog
02-15-2007, 02:00 PM
This is opinion, not fact. There are many people that share your opinion, and there are many who do not.

Doesn't change how much I dislike what he said.

the data and research do not say "opinion" they say "fact"

it is a FACT that homosexual behavior exists in all animal species.

it is a FACT that almost every species (this of course excludes mankind) does not have the capability to "choose" their sexual orientation.

ask yourself, with all of the hatred directed towards homosexuals, and hardaway is merely the latest to verbalize this deep seated prejudice, why would anyone "choose" to be homosexual?

sure, there are some who want to experiment with alternative lifestyles, and to experiment with homosexual sex. these are however the minority, and these are typically the people who do not proclaim themselves to be homosexual but rather bisexual. in other words, they just want to be kinky.

we don't wake up one morning and say "i think I will be heterosexual...". we are what we are, and so too are homosexuals.

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 02:03 PM
This is my first and last post. Clearly, my type isn't welcome here.

sifling,

i'll let others speak for themselves, but as for me the only type that isn't welcome here is hte type that waltzes in and bitches about not being accepted without ever having posted before.

cheers

TheBlueVan
02-15-2007, 02:10 PM
who the hell cares what tim hardaway says? people are entitled to their own opinions. granted, there is NO WAY that he should have said that, and im not trying to agree with or justify it, im just saying.

everyone has their own beliefs and opinions, some are just stupid enough to say 'em in a public setting. if you remove the moral component, which usually comes from some ones belief system/worldview/upbringing, everything is relative. IF everything is relative, people can say homosexuality is good or bad, neither is right. one opinion conflicts with religious conservatives, another with the politically correct. again, all i'm saying is let the man have his opinion, but there is no excuse for vehemently assaulting a group of people for any reason.

hate, passion and opinions are as human as breathing, so to ignore them or try to cover them up is not good. you could try to change his mind, but people are stubborn as well. in these sort of situations, the LESS ATTENTION THE BETTER. although, you have to wonder both why amaechi made such a big deal about coming out, hiring a publicist who saturated the internet with rumors of a player coming out, and why the hell tim hardaway decided to say what he did on radio

Usually Lurkin
02-15-2007, 02:11 PM
the data and research do not say "opinion" they say "fact"

it is a FACT that homosexual behavior exists in all animal species.
...
are you saying we don't get to choose whether we act on our animal urges?
You'll probably find quite a few scientists who would argue that Tim Hardaway doesn't have a choice in how strongly he holds his in group/out group biases. That doesn't make the scientists right, and it doesn't make Tim's views right.

TheBlueVan
02-15-2007, 02:12 PM
its huge knee-jerk politically correct reactions such as this that are leading to the resurgence of some factions of the KKK. i was watching a documentary about that on the discovery channel, it was one of the scariest, saddest things ive ever seen

mary
02-15-2007, 02:16 PM
This is my first and last post. Clearly, my type isn't welcome here.

This board certainly has its share of idiots. But for the most part, people around here are pretty respectful of each other and each others' opinions, even when they do not agree. I feel pretty confident in saying that you would be welcomed as long as you brought something to the table of discussion.

If you happen to see someone being an ignorant asshole, its best just to ignore them and move on. Unless of course, you feel like jabbing with them, then put your gloves on. If you don't, then don't. In that respect, writing on a internet message board is really not that much different for "real" life.

Personally, if you have something to say, I welcome your opinion and your presence on this forum. Lord knows we could use some fresh thoughts/faces around here.

Unless of course you happen to be a fan of some OTHER basketball team - then you can take a flying leap off of a tall cliff.

jthig32
02-15-2007, 02:19 PM
As a gay person who lurks on this board, this is fascinating discourse. I had no idea so much brazen ignorance, hatred and bigotry remained. I am truly shocked and saddened.

For all you who think homosexuality is a "choice," ask yourself this simple question:
Who would ever "choose" a lifestyle that leaves you vulnerable to this degree of hatred and bashing? Who would willingly, voluntarily raise their hand and exclaim: "Yes! I'd love to endure that for the rest of my life!"

This is my first and last post. Clearly, my type isn't welcome here.

So your tactic to fight what you perceive as closedmindedness is to call people that don't agree with you ignorant. Nice.

This is my biggest problem with the political correctness movement. Is it enough for me to speak out against hatred and shunning of homosexuality (as I have done in this thread). No, that is not enough. I must also agree that it is biological, and natural, and a perfectly fine part of the world. Otherwise I am considered ignorant by the people that simply do not share the same beliefs as me.

I have been perfectly clear in my stance in this thread. Hopefully you weren't talking about me with your comments, but I suspect you were lumping me in there.

I have my beliefs, and I shove them on no one. One of my favorite relatives is openly gay and we have a good relationship. He know where I stand, and I know where he stands. Why is this not enough?

TheBlueVan
02-15-2007, 02:22 PM
So your tactic to fight what you perceive as closedmindedness is to call people that don't agree with you ignorant. Nice.

This is my biggest problem with the political correctness movement. Is it enough for me to speak out against hatred and shunning of homosexuality (as I have done in this thread). No, that is not enough. I must also agree that it is biological, and natural, and a perfectly fine part of the world. Otherwise I am considered ignorant by the people that simply do not share the same beliefs as me.

I have been perfectly clear in my stance in this thread. Hopefully you weren't talking about me with your comments, but I suspect you were lumping me in there.

I have my beliefs, and I shove them on no one. One of my favorite relatives is openly gay and we have a good relationship. He know where I stand, and I know where he stands. Why is this not enough?


YES! i go to one of the most liberal schools in america, and EVERYONE gets so pissed if you dont see things exactly their way. a lot of the PC crowd is even more narrow minded than the people they fight

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 02:37 PM
YES! i go to one of the most liberal schools in america, and EVERYONE gets so pissed if you dont see things exactly their way. a lot of the PC crowd is even more narrow minded than the people they fight

certainly....

take sifling, above.....never posted in here before, but he's gets his panties in wad because he's already decided that many folks here are knuckle dragging hate-mongerers. How much more pre-judgmental can a person get than that?

oops....the panty wadding thing may have been a bit out of line given the context....

cheers

jthig32
02-15-2007, 02:43 PM
certainly....

take sifling, above.....never posted in here before, but he's gets his panties in wad because he's already decided that many folks here are knuckle dragging hate-mongerers. How much more pre-judgmental can a person get than that?

oops....the panty wadding thing may have been a bit out of line given the context....

cheers

Well, just so we're all clear on where we stand, you haven't really been helpful in this thread. Your comments have been pretty borderline and even over at times. You've said some things that I could understand someone getting offended by.

bernardos70
02-15-2007, 02:52 PM
As a gay person who lurks on this board, this is fascinating discourse. I had no idea so much brazen ignorance, hatred and bigotry remained. I am truly shocked and saddened.

For all you who think homosexuality is a "choice," ask yourself this simple question:
Who would ever "choose" a lifestyle that leaves you vulnerable to this degree of hatred and bashing? Who would willingly, voluntarily raise their hand and exclaim: "Yes! I'd love to endure that for the rest of my life!"

This is my first and last post. Clearly, my type isn't welcome here.

Well, it's not a choice that you like men, but you could choose to only have sex with women. Not that you would enjoy it, but like I said, that's another matter entirely. You didn't choose who you like, but you chose who to have sex with. Your actions define you.

Just to be completely clear, I'll tell you a joke where I stand on the whole scheme of things, by Demetri Martin:

"I'm in a weird postion, because I like rainbows, but I"m not gay. So I have a T-shirt with a rainbow, but under that I had to write 'Not Gay.' But I'm not against gay people, so under that I had to write 'But Supportive.'....... It's just weird that a group took refracted light..... that's pretty greedy, gays!"

Murphy3
02-15-2007, 02:53 PM
AGay's make a choice to be agay..

With that being said, it's their choice. I don't agree with the lifestyle, but it really doesn't bother me more than alot of other things in life. If they want to go around having gay sex with each other, so be it. If they want to be agay and go around not having agay sex with each other, then so be it.

Gaydom has never really bothered me other than for the obvious reasons that have been mentioned over and over in this thread.....

The biggest issue here is this... Why in the hell does anyone care what Tim Hardaway has to say? Could he possibly be less singificant?

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 03:06 PM
Well, just so we're all clear on where we stand, you haven't really been helpful in this thread. Your comments have been pretty borderline and even over at times. You've said some things that I could understand someone getting offended by.

duly noted...perhaps you can recommend a PC approved dictionary that i may reference henceforth?

also...if you think that a homosexual act is a sin which may condemn a person to an eternity in hell, don't bust my balls because I make no bones about having an aesthic, not moral but aesthetic, aversion to male-on-male homosexual practices.

cheers

Dirkadirkastan
02-15-2007, 03:13 PM
It's getting to the point where it takes less courage to choose a gay lifestyle than it does to speak out against it.

Exactly. "Coming out of the closet" these days is overrated.

WurzburgBorn
02-15-2007, 03:19 PM
Exactly. "Coming out of the closet" these days is overrated.

I'm not sure what you mean by overrated, but if you're talking about a test of what sells on the market, I have to disagree. I think that plenty of people will buy John's new book, even if I'm not one of them. I'd go as far as to say many Americans think it's a pretty interesting story.
It's news. Perhaps ideally it shouldn't be a big deal at all, but I think there are a lot of reasons why it's a big story and because the media are a bunch of PC liberals isn't high on the list.

jthig32
02-15-2007, 03:24 PM
duly noted...perhaps you can recommend a PC approved dictionary that i may reference henceforth?

also...if you think that a homosexual act is a sin which may condemn a person to an eternity in hell, don't bust my balls because I make no bones about having an aesthic, not moral but aesthetic, aversion to male-on-male homosexual practices.

cheers

I believe it's a sin. Just like lying on your tax returns is. Commital or non-commital of sin is not the determining factor in going to hell. So no, I don't believe that it is an act that condemns anyone to hell.

I don't have a problem with you having an aesthetic aversion to homosexuality. I have a problem with the way you express it, and the way you express yourself in general, at times. But that's not contained to this thread.

That's all.

Mavdog
02-15-2007, 03:27 PM
I have my beliefs, and I shove them on no one. One of my favorite relatives is openly gay and we have a good relationship. He knows where I stand, and I know where he stands. Why is this not enough?

yes, that should be enough.

Flacolaco
02-15-2007, 03:28 PM
This makes me wonder....and I'm asking a rare serious question here....has anyone on this board ever openly said they were gay?

(and please no names obviously, just a yes or no) I haven't been around very long, and would be interested to hear one way or the other.

sike
02-15-2007, 03:29 PM
How unfortunate.

And I disagree Hex, I think Hardaway has a hard time recovering from this in any way. The NBA already cut him off from his appearances surrounding the All Star game.
he is done.

its only ok to hate on Conservative Christians and Mormons...

Murphy3
02-15-2007, 03:35 PM
This makes me wonder....and I'm asking a rare serious question here....has anyone on this board ever openly said they were gay?

(and please no names obviously, just a yes or no) I haven't been around very long, and would be interested to hear one way or the other.
Yes, someone has....

edited... I can't remember whether or not they said they were gay in the forum or gay via PM's... so, don't want anything in my post to give any clues as to who it was/is.

TheBlueVan
02-15-2007, 03:36 PM
i have a side-note question. if you don't have a moral base to say that homosexuality is wrong, then how can you say its wrong if someone else says its bad

my point being, if there is no higher order of right and wrong or judgment, you cant come down on Hardaway for saying what he says, just like you can't come down on Amaechi for being gay. thats ALL politcal correctness is, a new kind of morality based on not hurting the feelings of a select few people, meanwhile insulting others

nikeball
02-15-2007, 03:37 PM
Do you think heterosexual men and women should be ok sharing a lockerroom with straight members of the opposite sex? If some straight dude wanted to change in the women's lockerroom and shower with them, should he be allowed to? Even if he says he's not attracted to the woman-version of Greg Ostertag?

I think there is more to it than that. Society views unisex restrooms as very weird and out of the norm. (However in "Ally Mcbeal", they had a unisex -- and it promotes more team bonding/trust/closeness -- supposedly a study was done). Remember .. it was less than half a century ago when there were separate restrooms/buses/facilities for whites/blacks. Maybe in 50 years men and women will all share same lockerroom/shower/bathroom (ex. the movie "Starship Troopers" lol). But I don't think that will ever happen, because men and women are too different (and think differently). Most women, to be initmate/aroused by someone are caused more by feelings/emotions/closeness to another...and for most men it is purely physical. Thus the unisex will never work. Besides women and men's bodies are different. Women's restrooms have couches, less dirty, tampon dispenser to suit their needs. Where as we have filth, piss on floors, and stank. Also another reason why the co-ed locker room would not work is the way men view women as objects. In the restroom they will feel like they are being checked out the whole time, not private, and objectified.

Back to the topic of gay men sharing lockerroom with straight men. The way I feel is, if you are comfortable being naked in front of other men, why would it matter if he was gay or straight or not? Wouldn't it just be your own security/insecurity? I wouldn't be comfortable in naked in front of any man. It is just too weird.

WurzburgBorn
02-15-2007, 03:41 PM
i have a side-note question. if you don't have a moral base to say that homosexuality is wrong, then how can you say its wrong if someone else says its bad

my point being, if there is no higher order of right and wrong or judgment, you cant come down on Hardaway for saying what he says, just like you can't come down on Amaechi for being gay. thats ALL politcal correctness is, a new kind of morality based on not hurting the feelings of a select few people, meanwhile insulting others

In my experience, very few people who don't think homosexuality is wrong think that morality is for the birds.

nikeball
02-15-2007, 03:43 PM
i have a side-note question. if you don't have a moral base to say that homosexuality is wrong, then how can you say its wrong if someone else says its bad

my point being, if there is no higher order of right and wrong or judgment, you cant come down on Hardaway for saying what he says, just like you can't come down on Amaechi for being gay. thats ALL politcal correctness is, a new kind of morality based on not hurting the feelings of a select few people, meanwhile insulting others

morality - is based on how you were raised. a sum of your whole life. thus everyone's will be different. i believe homosexuality is a sin based on what it said in the bible. but that doesnt mean gays should be treated with less respect

Tim Hardaway has his right to his own opinions but he shouldve kept it to himself. He is a public figure and needs to hold himself to higher standards for our children's sake. What separates us from animals is TACT and INHIBITIONS. Without them, we are no different than savage animals.

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 03:44 PM
I believe it's a sin. Just like lying on your tax returns is. Commital or non-commital of sin is not the determining factor in going to hell. So no, I don't believe that it is an act that condemns anyone to hell.

I don't have a problem with you having an aesthetic aversion to homosexuality. I have a problem with the way you express it, and the way you express yourself in general, at times. But that's not contained to this thread.

That's all.

certainly....

......to you, homosexuality is a sin just like lying on a tax return, or murdering a person in cold blood is a sin.

.....to me, homosexuality is gross, kind of like eating sushi. (unless, of course, we're talking about two hot young females. In this case homosexuality is not only acceptable, but quite fantastic in my humble opinion. Inasmuch as I have on several occassions celebrated homosexuality in this thread, I hope that no-one imagines that I'm a homo hater)

as for the way I express myself....i've never ask anyone to like anything I say, just argue back....also, in just this thread I've accused myself of bestiality--i don't ask anyone to take me more seriously than i take myself....

cheers

Dirkadirkastan
02-15-2007, 03:46 PM
As a gay person who lurks on this board, this is fascinating discourse. I had no idea so much brazen ignorance, hatred and bigotry remained. I am truly shocked and saddened.

I go to an extreme PC liberal college, so I know what you're getting at. Anyone who doesn't exactly conform your ideology qualifies for the broad category of "brazen ignorance, hatred and bigotry" which "shocks and saddens" you. Of course, I'm surrounded by those words every day, so I've seen it all and I know what I'm talking about.

For all you who think homosexuality is a "choice," ask yourself this simple question:
Who would ever "choose" a lifestyle that leaves you vulnerable to this degree of hatred and bashing? Who would willingly, voluntarily raise their hand and exclaim: "Yes! I'd love to endure that for the rest of my life!"

This is a very good point.

This is my first and last post. Clearly, my type isn't welcome here.

Oh how noble of you to sulk and wallow in self-pity! You think you're so prejudiced that in a blaze of self-righteousness, you label the entire board as bigoted. How ironic.

TripleDipping
02-15-2007, 03:48 PM
Somewhere in Miami, Tim Hardaway is sitting behind a computer, reading all this hoopla, and laughs and says:"Hahah, I'm relevant again!"

Rhylan
02-15-2007, 03:53 PM
he is done.

its only ok to hate on Conservative Christians and Mormons...

Sad, but quite true.

Doesn't take away from how idiotic Hardaway is, of course. He could've come out and said so many things about not agreeing with, or being uncomfortable with, gay men. If that's his opinion, fine. But, "I hate them?" Gimme a break.

jacktruth
02-15-2007, 03:59 PM
Because men stand and women sit?

I lived with a gay guy for 3 years in college (and shared a bathroom with him - Oh, the horror of it all!). I never once got the feeling that he was attracted to me.

Even if a teammate was attracted to another player, as long as they both know that nothing will ever come of it, who cares? They're human beings, give them some credit for having a little bit of self-control.
Seriously? Do you think that is the only reason?

Here's some reality. Men think about sex all of the time. If men and women shared lockerooms and bathrooms, either men would be in there all of the time, or women would wear depends. Especially lockerrooms.

So, gay men want to say that they are just like other men. Are they or not? Do they think about the same amount as most men? If so, there should be a cover charge to get into the men's lockerroom. I know plenty of men that would pay plenty to undress and shower with the ladies.

It's not at all homophobic to think in those terms.

WurzburgBorn
02-15-2007, 04:05 PM
Seriously? Do you think that is the only reason?

Here's some reality. Men think about sex all of the time. If men and women shared lockerooms and bathrooms, either men would be in there all of the time, or women would wear depends. Especially lockerrooms.

So, gay men want to say that they are just like other men. Are they or not? Do they think about the same amount as most men? If so, there should be a cover charge to get into the men's lockerroom. I know plenty of men that would pay plenty to undress and shower with the ladies.

It's not at all homophobic to think in those terms.

Many straight men could use a co-ed bathroom and control their urge to look over into the next stall. Gay men do the same thing in same-sex bathrooms every day.

Usually Lurkin
02-15-2007, 04:29 PM
Many straight men could use a co-ed bathroom and control their urge to look over into the next stall. Gay men do the same thing in same-sex bathrooms every day.
these people are irrelevant. You can either take them at their word that they are not ogling or not, but that's all you have is their word. On the other hand, in this hypothetical, it is the women in the women's restroom/lockerroom and the straightmen in the men's whose trust issues are being forced. To say in this situation, "too bad, you have to trust the dude cause he says he's good" goes against every privacy principle we have.

WurzburgBorn
02-15-2007, 04:34 PM
these people are irrelevant. You can either take them at their word that they are not ogling or not, but that's all you have is their word. On the other hand, in this hypothetical, it is the women in the women's restroom/lockerroom and the straightmen in the men's whose trust issues are being forced. To say in this situation, "too bad, you have to trust the dude cause he says he's good" goes against every privacy principle we have.

I'm sorry, I just don't follow what you're saying at all. Are you saying that the right to privacy demands that we set up seperate restrooms for homosexuals?

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 04:46 PM
I'm sorry, I just don't follow what you're saying at all. Are you saying that the right to privacy demands that we set up seperate restrooms for homosexuals?

i think what he's saying is that guys that like girls routinely lie to girls.

...it ain't all that unreasonable to assume that guys that like guys would do the same thing, like....

"seriously dude, go ahead, shower...i may be a homosexual but that doesn't mean that i'm imagining you wearing a ball-gag and me acting out a scene from pulp fiction. yeah, lather up....nice and slow"

endtroducing MASKED
02-15-2007, 04:50 PM
if, in 2007, someone is still feeling this way towards a gay person...just put a fucking bullet in them. humans are so disgusting.

bernardos70
02-15-2007, 04:51 PM
lol, I'm sorry PC, but that was funny.

WurzburgBorn
02-15-2007, 04:51 PM
i think what he's saying is that guys that like girls routinely lie to girls.

...it ain't all that unreasonable to assume that guys that like guys would do the same thing, like....

"seriously dude, go ahead, shower...i may be a homosexual but that doesn't mean that i'm imagining you wearing a ball-gag and me acting out a scene from pulp fiction. yeah, lather up....nice and slow"

I see.
Am I alone then in thinking "who cares if some guy is thinking about that?"
Why should I care whether some guy thinks I'm hot as long as he doesn't stare and keeps his hands to himself?

Thespiralgoeson
02-15-2007, 05:04 PM
It's getting to the point where it takes less courage to choose a gay lifestyle than it does to speak out against it.

You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly the way it should be.

Secondly, I will say this one time and one time only. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice."

And don't you or anyone else dare tell me it is. Unless you're speaking from experience, what the fuck do you know about it? Did you choose to be heterosexual, Chum?

alexamenos
02-15-2007, 05:13 PM
Am I alone then in thinking "who cares if some guy is thinking about that?"

i guess it depends upon whether the guy is good looking, and whether he has a good paying job.

cheers

TheBlueVan
02-15-2007, 05:47 PM
morality - is based on how you were raised. a sum of your whole life. thus everyone's will be different. i believe homosexuality is a sin based on what it said in the bible. but that doesnt mean gays should be treated with less respect

Tim Hardaway has his right to his own opinions but he shouldve kept it to himself. He is a public figure and needs to hold himself to higher standards for our children's sake. What separates us from animals is TACT and INHIBITIONS. Without them, we are no different than savage animals.

i totally agree, the question was more of the general concept of right and wrong after you remove religion from the equation

jthig32
02-15-2007, 05:59 PM
You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly the way it should be.

Secondly, I will say this one time and one time only. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice."

And don't you or anyone else dare tell me it is. Unless you're speaking from experience, what the fuck do you know about it? Did you choose to be heterosexual, Chum?

Once again, LOVE the openmindedness here.

No room for disagreement or personal beliefs that don't hurt anyone. Love it.

Thespiralgoeson
02-15-2007, 06:11 PM
Once again, LOVE the openmindedness here.

No room for disagreement or personal beliefs that don't hurt anyone. Love it.

No, when it comes to a statement like that, there is no room for disagreement. It's just plain wrong. It'd be like someone saying the world is flat. Do you "agree to disagree?" No, you correct them.

Secondly, beliefs like that certainly do hurt someone. If they didn't, we wouldn't be talking about them, would we?

Edit: If one believes homosexuality is a sin for religious reasons, fine. I'm not going to get into a theological discussion. But someone who's not "in the know" telling me what choices I have or haven't made in my life, that's where I draw the line.

jthig32
02-15-2007, 06:25 PM
No, when it comes to a statement like that, there is no room for disagreement. It's just plain wrong. It'd be like someone saying the world is flat. Do you "agree to disagree?" No, you correct them.

Secondly, beliefs like that certainly do hurt someone. If they didn't, we wouldn't be talking about them, would we?

Edit: If one believes homosexuality is a sin for religious reasons, fine. I'm not going to get into a theological discussion. But someone who's not "in the know" telling me what choices I have or haven't made in my life, that's where I draw the line.

Well, unfortunately, we'll have to agree to disagree on the argument of whether or not it is fact.

And no, beliefs do not hut anybody. The way people act on those beliefs are what hut people. And obviously, a lot of people make very poor decisions based on those beliefs. But the people that don't, that simply have their beliefs do not hurt anyone.

dude1394
02-15-2007, 06:26 PM
You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly the way it should be.

Secondly, I will say this one time and one time only. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice."

And don't you or anyone else dare tell me it is. Unless you're speaking from experience, what the fuck do you know about it? Did you choose to be heterosexual, Chum?

Yes I choose to be heterosexual. I also choose to be monogamous.

And whether you believe that or not is irrelevant frankly imo. I do not want popular culture to be promoting a deviant lifestyle as if it's the latest fashion to take on or off.

Usually Lurkin
02-15-2007, 06:28 PM
I'm sorry, I just don't follow what you're saying at all. Are you saying that the right to privacy demands that we set up seperate restrooms for homosexuals?
I'm saying that if it's reasonable to expect women to be uncomfortable enough with straight men in the lockerroom that we separate them, how can we not expect men to be uncomfortable enough with a gay man that we separate them? Sure, there are differences in the analogy that don't have anything to do with the possibility of unwanted sexuality, but I bet that's the the biggest factor in why women don't want men in the lockerroom.

DevinHarriswillstart
02-15-2007, 06:32 PM
I wonder if Tim Hardaway has even met a gay person. I mean he singles them out as "the way they are".....in college, I was convinced this friend of mind was gay. He walked and talked it. Wore shirts 3 sizes too small. You know what, he was getting more girls than I was. He was I guess "metro" sexual. So maybe what Tim Hardaway doesn't like is flamboyant men. (men with "hoe" qualities as he would say) What makes someone homophobic in my opinion is the idea of being gay rather than the actuality. Just like in the NBA it seems perception can become reality.

Usually Lurkin
02-15-2007, 06:33 PM
You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly the way it should be.

Secondly, I will say this one time and one time only. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice."

And don't you or anyone else dare tell me it is. Unless you're speaking from experience, what the fuck do you know about it? Did you choose to be heterosexual, Chum?
I choose to be heterosexual, too. I also choose to be monogomous, too. And spiral, why do you think you are not the one proclaiming that the world is flat? Because someone told you how it is? Because it looks that way? The scientific evidence is nowhere near as clear as mavdog or anyone else might proclaim. And even if it is, are you going to argue that we have no choice but to follow our natural instincts, that in effect, have no free will?

dude1394
02-15-2007, 06:33 PM
I'm saying that if it's reasonable to expect women to be uncomfortable enough with straight men in the lockerroom that we separate them, how can we not expect men to be uncomfortable enough with a gay man that we separate them? Sure, there are differences in the analogy that don't have anything to do with the possibility of unwanted sexuality, but I bet that's the the biggest factor in why women don't want men in the lockerroom.

Very clear to me. Obviously ladies who do not want men waltzing into their dressing areas are sexist, racist misandrists.

Dirkadirkastan
02-15-2007, 06:36 PM
Let's not get stupid now. Of course homosexuals choose their "lifestyles". The question is if they have control over who they're attracted to. I wouldn't think so, but what do I know.

DevinHarriswillstart
02-15-2007, 06:38 PM
I think it depends on the person if you choose the lifestyle or not. I like women. But what if I chose to be gay, even if I didn't like it. If you look at it like that, then yes, you can "choose" your lifestyle. However, since I like women, I wouldn't choose that now would I? If I liked men and women didn't do it for me, I'd probably choose to be gay. Why would I choose for my whole life to be a lie?

Dirkadirkastan
02-15-2007, 06:40 PM
It's getting to the point where it takes less courage to choose a gay lifestyle than it does to speak out against it.
You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly the way it should be.

THOUGHT POLICE

Believing this pretty much violates the principle of freedom of speech that this country was founded on. If someone believes homosexuality is wrong, then by God and my country, they have a right to say it.

Usually Lurkin
02-15-2007, 06:40 PM
Let's not get stupid now. Of course homosexuals choose their "lifestyles". The question is if they have control over who they're attracted to. I wouldn't think so, but what do I know.
I think so, even if there's a natural/genetic component. It gets easier and more rewarding, in my opinion, to be monogomous the longer you do it. It also gets easier not to control your anger, or any other natural impulse. These are all attitudes and impulses that change with our patterns of behavior.

dude1394
02-15-2007, 06:41 PM
Let's not get stupid now. Of course homosexuals choose their "lifestyles". The question is if they have control over who they're attracted to. I wouldn't think so, but what do I know.

The question is also whether society if forced to accept who they are "attracted" to. No it is not. See many sexual laws as proof.

endtroducing MASKED
02-15-2007, 06:44 PM
you know what's funny? people still fucking have this attitude. how LOL is that shit

Dirkadirkastan
02-15-2007, 06:45 PM
you know what's funny? people still fucking have this attitude. how LOL is that shit

Yeah, pretty shitty how some people don't give in to every whim of Hollywood society, isn't it?

DevinHarriswillstart
02-15-2007, 06:49 PM
The question is also whether society if forced to accept who they are "attracted" to. No it is not. See many sexual laws as proof.

Society doesn't force me to do anything. Society convinces us that gays are reflected on shows like Will and Grace. I promise you would be surprised who is gay and who isn't. A "lifestyle" choice, to me, has almost nothing to do whether you want to do it with men or women. There are masculine gay men and feminine lesbians. Society thinks its fun to watch American Idol. I don't and never will.

endtroducing MASKED
02-15-2007, 06:49 PM
oh, you mean treating everyone equally? THAT SHIT IS FUCKED UP.

homophobia is just another version of racism, chief. not giving equal treatment to all is totally inexcusable.

jthig32
02-15-2007, 06:52 PM
oh, you mean treating everyone equally? THAT SHIT IS FUCKED UP.

homophobia is just another version of racism, chief. not giving equal treatment to all is totally inexcusable.

Your reading comprehension needs work. No one's arguing here that they should be discriminated against.

jthig32
02-15-2007, 06:54 PM
Society doesn't force me to do anything. Society convinces us that gays are reflected on shows like Will and Grace. I promise you would be surprised who is gay and who isn't. A "lifestyle" choice, to me, has almost nothing to do whether you want to do it with men or women. There are masculine gay men and feminine lesbians. Society thinks its fun to watch American Idol. I don't and never will.

This is rambling and not real coherent. Several points mased into one here.

But in my opionion, and many others, a lifestyle choice has EVERYTHING to do with whether you want to do it with men or women. It also has to do with whether you want to do it with lots of men/women or just one, whether you're willing to do it with married men/women, whether you're willing to do it with under age men/women, the list goes on and on.

dude1394
02-15-2007, 06:56 PM
Society doesn't force me to do anything. Society convinces us that gays are reflected on shows like Will and Grace. I promise you would be surprised who is gay and who isn't. A "lifestyle" choice, to me, has almost nothing to do whether you want to do it with men or women. There are masculine gay men and feminine lesbians. Society thinks its fun to watch American Idol. I don't and never will.

I might have said "coerced" instead of forced. Society "coerces" us into all kinds of things, low-cut slacks, 8 year old girls with "juicy" on their stretch shorts, gay lifestyle acceptance in our movies, culture and print. When society begins to promote a gay lifestyle as non-deviant it has effects on people, just like beer-ads, music videos and television shows.

It's about the only thing that the islamists have a point about, our culture easily could be described as the great satan.

Dirkadirkastan
02-15-2007, 07:01 PM
oh, you mean treating everyone equally? THAT SHIT IS FUCKED UP.

homophobia is just another version of racism, chief. not giving equal treatment to all is totally inexcusable.

See, just like I said. THOUGHT POLICE.

Never mind the fact that just about everyone knows someone who is gay. (e.g. my uncle is gay) Never mind the fact that cases where violence occurs are rare.

Apparently I have a fear of homosexuals because Hollywood has slapped this "homophobe" label on anyone who doesn't agree with them.

The real hypocrisy of the situation is that you don't "give equal treatment to all". The only people you allow to think and speak are those that think and speak in like manner with yourself. The people that agree with you include homosexuals, so that makes you appear "tolerant", but you're not, since you only tolerate those that agree with you to begin with.

mavsman
02-15-2007, 07:23 PM
I bet lil' Timmy wouldn't mind having Kobe on his team cause he's not rapistophobic. Or maybe he is and his homophobia stems from a deeper irrational fear of dropping his soap with the big english guy around.

chumdawg
02-15-2007, 07:37 PM
You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly the way it should be.

Secondly, I will say this one time and one time only. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice."

And don't you or anyone else dare tell me it is. Unless you're speaking from experience, what the fuck do you know about it? Did you choose to be heterosexual, Chum?I have no idea what percentage, if any, of those who identify themselves as homosexual do so because of genetic wiring. But I do know it's not the whole lot of them.

I am always amused by the counterargument that poses the question: "Why would anyone want to put up with all the abuse they get for being gay?" I have my suspicions about the answer, but the question is really not relevant. You do not have to look far AT ALL to find people outright *celebrating* their homosexuality.

Now, I did know one guy who told me how badly he wished he were straight. He said it would have made many areas of his life more comfortable. For example, his parents didn't know--and he was going to make damn sure they didn't find out. By all appearances he was just a regular joe, not a nellie queen. And he even tried to have relationships with women. Had sex with a few, he said, but in the end they just didn't turn him on like the guys did. But hey, sexuality is not a cut-and-dried thing. All sorts of people get off on all sorts of stuff.

In short, the opinion I have formed based on the evidence I've seen is that homosexuality is an outlet, often representing a sort of comfort zone, for many people who can't find acceptance (or don't have interest) in a heterosexual society. That's as concise as I can put it.

untitled
02-15-2007, 07:52 PM
I agree with Spiral's point about being in-the-know. The first question I asked my roommate after he came out to me was: "So, when did you know and was it a choice?"

He's an army brat. His father was a career officer, now retired and working for Gateway. He went to high school in Sioux City, Iowa. One evening (while still at home) he was sitting down at dinner with his older brother (Citadel grad) and younger sister when the conversation turned to a boy at their school that had recently come out. When asked what they would do if one of their kids was gay, his parents replied: "We'd disown you."

Anyways, his response to my question about when he knew and whether it was a choice: "My preteen years, and no. Why would I choose this life for myself? I'm scared to death to tell my parents and don't think I ever will."

And you know what, I had to believe him. Why? Because he knows what it's like, and I don't have a clue - I like girl-next-door type brunettes. :)

Oh, and I don't recall choosing to prefer brunettes to blonds - it's just the way I'm wired.

Murphy3
02-15-2007, 08:40 PM
Do homosexuals deserve to be hung...deserve to be looked at as sub human? No, not at all. Should they be shot for being gay? Nope. Is it ok to speak out against homosexuality as something that you believe to be morally wrong? Yes, of course it is. If you don't like it, deal with it or don't be gay. I'm sorry, but for those of you who are Christian, it is my understanding that it is your duty to speak out against homosexuality. I know that Christianity has become watered down over the years and transformed into something that's more convenient for the majority of people in our society, but I, in no way believe that Christianity was founded on just accepting that someone was in constant sin which is what homosexuality is.

Now, I'm not trying to come off here on the moral high ground because I've done more than my fair share of crappy things to people throughout my life. I've committed sins that are worse than those committed by homosexuals. But, so be it. Speaking out against homosexuality should occur in my opinion. Speaking out against murder, abuse, rape, lying, cheating, stealing.. the same should go for those as well.

AxdemxO
02-15-2007, 10:38 PM
Personally I think Hardaway was a lil harsh..but he was expressing his feelings than why is every1 gettin on him. The man was honest, he is saying its not something he likes and that its not natural..soo let it go. Those are his views

Dtownsfinest
02-15-2007, 11:18 PM
I'll give Hardaway credit for one thing. He was honest. And believe it or not people actually feel this way in america. Hate is a strong word so I won't go that for but I dislike the thought or sight of homosexuality as well. Atleast he was honest though. Charles Barkley meanwhile is all of a sudden spokeperson for GLAAD when back in the 90's numerous times I heard him scream out the term "f**" when playin against players.

Nemesis
02-15-2007, 11:36 PM
Murphy, do you have these same feelings when it comes to strippers?

Murphy3
02-15-2007, 11:53 PM
Yep

jleefilled
02-16-2007, 12:21 AM
Do homosexuals deserve to be hung...deserve to be looked at as sub human? No, not at all. Should they be shot for being gay? Nope. Is it ok to speak out against homosexuality as something that you believe to be morally wrong? Yes, of course it is. If you don't like it, deal with it or don't be gay. I'm sorry, but for those of you who are Christian, it is my understanding that it is your duty to speak out against homosexuality. I know that Christianity has become watered down over the years and transformed into something that's more convenient for the majority of people in our society, but I, in no way believe that Christianity was founded on just accepting that someone was in constant sin which is what homosexuality is.

Now, I'm not trying to come off here on the moral high ground because I've done more than my fair share of crappy things to people throughout my life. I've committed sins that are worse than those committed by homosexuals. But, so be it. Speaking out against homosexuality should occur in my opinion. Speaking out against murder, abuse, rape, lying, cheating, stealing.. the same should go for those as well.

I think you're right in the sense that if a Chrisitian is asked whether he thought it was morally right or wrong to be homosexual, he should respond that it's wrong. I don't know where Hardaway is coming from with his comments -- actually, I only read the headline at ESPN -- but if it has a Chrisitan basis, shouldn't he rather say that he hates the sins, not the sinner?

mqywaaah
02-16-2007, 01:54 AM
I think it would've been better if he said that. Maybe he had a very traumatic experience with a gay dude. And all those things he just said had been bottled up for the past 10 years or so. Maybe a molested child in his early years?

Usually Lurkin
02-16-2007, 06:08 AM
Dirkadirkastan and Murphy have a very good point. Just because you don't agree with someone's actions doesn't mean you hate the whole group of people who chose to participate in those actions. Hardaway hates gays. He said so. Hardaway is homophobic. He said so. I don't think anyone here is defending that attitude. To me, that's the same as racism. It smacks of unforgiving hatred, and it's wrong. But there is a level of disagreement that doesn't include hatred.

But it doesn't make you homophobic and hate-filled to disagree that something is or is not sinful. I think gambling is sinful. That doesn't mean I hate all gamblers.

It is a dirty trick played by the victim crowd (and maybe a couple posters in this thread) to purposefully conflate disagreement with hatred.

mcsluggo
02-16-2007, 08:31 AM
This board certainly has its share of idiots. But for the most part, people around here are pretty respectful of each other and each others' opinions, even when they do not agree. I feel pretty confident in saying that you would be welcomed as long as you brought something to the table of discussion.

If you happen to see someone being an ignorant asshole, its best just to ignore them and move on. Unless of course, you feel like jabbing with them, then put your gloves on. If you don't, then don't. In that respect, writing on a internet message board is really not that much different for "real" life.

Personally, if you have something to say, I welcome your opinion and your presence on this forum. Lord knows we could use some fresh thoughts/faces around here.

Unless of course you happen to be a fan of some OTHER basketball team - then you can take a flying leap off of a tall cliff.

I myself happen to live under the auspices of a deviant lifestyle. To some extent it is my choice. It has been based on my lifestile, and on the previous directions I've allowed my life to wander. I suppose that at any point I could seek help and wipe this antisocial behavior out. But frankly, I don't want to. It may make me a living freak in the eyes of most who behold me, by I am in fact a fan of the Sacramento Kings. Even with Kenny farkin Thomas as a starting "power" forward, and the tough as nails, 6'7" Sharif Abdur Rahim as a starting center. As that team strives to raise its head far enough to be able to even catch a glimpse of mediocrity from below, I have to ask who in their right mind would knowingly CHOOSE this lifestyle?

Oh yeah, the question of gays? why should you care whether somone else is gay, whether or not they chose to be such, whether or not they are just "gay in spirit" or are actually acting out on it? Unless they make a move on YOU, who cares? (and even in that case, as long as they are willing to knock it off when asked to do so, just take it as a compliment... the equivelent of your gross old great aunt <the one with about 20 lbs of extra skin flaps in her face> grabbing your cheeks and saying how cute you are. She may not give you a stiffy, but are you really gonna hate her over it?)

mcsluggo
02-16-2007, 08:35 AM
In my experience, very few people who don't think homosexuality is wrong think that morality is for the birds.

Jeez man, how many negatives can you cram in to one sentence?

few (makes the sentese a negative) don't (two negatives make it a positive) wrong (I think this, as a third negative makes the sentence postive) ... so does "for the birds" make the whole sentence negative now?

mcsluggo
02-16-2007, 08:44 AM
I'm sorry, I just don't follow what you're saying at all. Are you saying that the right to privacy demands that we set up seperate restrooms for homosexuals?

Personally I'd much rather seperate locker rooms for ugly people. And even more importantly for those filthy over-fibered sickos that can't enter a bathroom without ripping the walpaper off with their erupting colons. Oh yeah, and old people too... they're really gross.

mary
02-16-2007, 09:26 AM
I myself happen to live under the auspices of a deviant lifestyle. To some extent it is my choice. It has been based on my lifestile, and on the previous directions I've allowed my life to wander. I suppose that at any point I could seek help and wipe this antisocial behavior out. But frankly, I don't want to. It may make me a living freak in the eyes of most who behold me, by I am in fact a fan of the Sacramento Kings. Even with Kenny farkin Thomas as a starting "power" forward, and the tough as nails, 6'7" Sharif Abdur Rahim as a starting center. As that team strives to raise its head far enough to be able to even catch a glimpse of mediocrity from below, I have to ask who in their right mind would knowingly CHOOSE this lifestyle?

Weirdo.

;)

:D

WurzburgBorn
02-16-2007, 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WurzburgBorn
In my experience, very few people who don't think homosexuality is wrong think that morality is for the birds.


Jeez man, how many negatives can you cram in to one sentence?

few (makes the sentese a negative) don't (two negatives make it a positive) wrong (I think this, as a third negative makes the sentence postive) ... so does "for the birds" make the whole sentence negative now?

Fair enough. I'll reword for clarity.
Many people believe that there's nothing immoral about sexual intercourse between two people of the same gender. That doesn't mean those that believe that have no sense of morality.

UsuallyLurkin posted:
Dirkadirkastan and Murphy have a very good point. Just because you don't agree with someone's actions doesn't mean you hate the whole group of people who chose to participate in those actions. Hardaway hates gays. He said so. Hardaway is homophobic. He said so. I don't think anyone here is defending that attitude. To me, that's the same as racism. It smacks of unforgiving hatred, and it's wrong. But there is a level of disagreement that doesn't include hatred.

But it doesn't make you homophobic and hate-filled to disagree that something is or is not sinful. I think gambling is sinful. That doesn't mean I hate all gamblers.

It is a dirty trick played by the victim crowd (and maybe a couple posters in this thread) to purposefully conflate disagreement with hatred.

I agree it is a good point, but in fairness to anyone in the thread who conflated the two, I doubt it is done as purposefully as you might think, or out of ill will. It's really not that difficult to get a bit confused on these issues.

I'm saying that if it's reasonable to expect women to be uncomfortable enough with straight men in the lockerroom that we separate them, how can we not expect men to be uncomfortable enough with a gay man that we separate them? Sure, there are differences in the analogy that don't have anything to do with the possibility of unwanted sexuality, but I bet that's the the biggest factor in why women don't want men in the lockerroom.

I hear you man, but I don't see any use to the analogy. I don't think it's unfair to expect straight men to tolerate the presence of gay men in public restrooms, precisely because they have proven themselves trustworthy. There just aren't any problems! Gay men have been using public restrooms in the USA since we've had public restrooms and 1) the economy, 2) taxes, 3) whatver other big issue you want to insert, all seem to be issues that more people seem to be concerned with. Did you have a bad experience with a homosexual in a restroom once? ;)

Zaknaf3in
02-16-2007, 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chumdawg
It's getting to the point where it takes less courage to choose a gay lifestyle than it does to speak out against it.

You say that like it's a bad thing. That's exactly the way it should be.

Secondly, I will say this one time and one time only. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice."

And don't you or anyone else dare tell me it is. Unless you're speaking from experience, what the fuck do you know about it? Did you choose to be heterosexual, Chum?
__________________


That sums up my thoughts pretty well.
There is NO "choice" of your sexual orientation.
There IS a choice NOT to live your orientation - but why should anyone be forced to do that? Because others feel uneasy or touched by a homosexual? Then these others have to grow up.

Sure, everyone has the right of having his own opinion - as long the fundamental rights of no one else are touched. And that works only one way around in this case - i'm not into the U.S. law, but in germany the constitution says: The human dignity is inviolable.
So your dignity is violated by others having another sexual orientation? No.
Your dignity is violated by others suppressing your choice of lifestyle? Yes indeed.


I myself happen to live under the auspices of a deviant lifestyle. To some extent it is my choice. It has been based on my lifestile, and on the previous directions I've allowed my life to wander. I suppose that at any point I could seek help and wipe this antisocial behavior out. But frankly, I don't want to. It may make me a living freak in the eyes of most who behold me, by I am in fact a fan of the Sacramento Kings. Even with Kenny farkin Thomas as a starting "power" forward, and the tough as nails, 6'7" Sharif Abdur Rahim as a starting center. As that team strives to raise its head far enough to be able to even catch a glimpse of mediocrity from below, I have to ask who in their right mind would knowingly CHOOSE this lifestyle?

Oh yeah, the question of gays? why should you care whether somone else is gay, whether or not they chose to be such, whether or not they are just "gay in spirit" or are actually acting out on it? Unless they make a move on YOU, who cares? (and even in that case, as long as they are willing to knock it off when asked to do so, just take it as a compliment... the equivelent of your gross old great aunt <the one with about 20 lbs of extra skin flaps in her face> grabbing your cheeks and saying how cute you are. She may not give you a stiffy, but are you really gonna hate her over it?)

Pretty good point, made in a pretty good way.

untitled
02-16-2007, 12:32 PM
Sure, everyone has the right of having his own opinion - as long the fundamental rights of no one else are touched. And that works only one way around in this case - i'm not into the U.S. law, but in germany the constitution says: The human dignity is inviolable.
So your dignity is violated by others having another sexual orientation? No.
Your dignity is violated by others suppressing your choice of lifestyle? Yes indeed.
Immanuel Kant, is that you?

WurzburgBorn
02-16-2007, 12:38 PM
Immanuel Kant, is that you?

LOL!
rep from a former philosophy major here. Edit: That really takes me back.

chumdawg
02-16-2007, 12:51 PM
The question I'd like to know the answer to is this: Do more and more people identify themselves as gay, as homosexuality becomes more "mainstream" in our culture? Or are people these days gay in more or less the same proportion as they were, say, fifty years ago?

The answer to that would go a long way...

Usually Lurkin
02-16-2007, 01:09 PM
So your dignity is violated by others having another sexual orientation? No.
Your dignity is violated by others suppressing your choice of lifestyle? Yes indeed.
That sounds simple, but what if someone wants a gay-free lifestyle? Is their dignity violated when a homosexual shows up in their lockeroom? Surely there is some chosen lifestyle you would choose to suppress in some form or another. Sex in public?

bobatundi
02-16-2007, 01:18 PM
This board certainly has its share of idiots. But for the most part, people around here are pretty respectful of each other and each others' opinions, even when they do not agree. I feel pretty confident in saying that you would be welcomed as long as you brought something to the table of discussion.

If you happen to see someone being an ignorant asshole, its best just to ignore them and move on. Unless of course, you feel like jabbing with them, then put your gloves on. If you don't, then don't. In that respect, writing on a internet message board is really not that much different for "real" life.

Personally, if you have something to say, I welcome your opinion and your presence on this forum. Lord knows we could use some fresh thoughts/faces around here.

Unless of course you happen to be a fan of some OTHER basketball team - then you can take a flying leap off of a tall cliff.

Indeed--while I have no problem with anyone being gay--whether it's by choice or in their DNA--there's just no excuse for not being a Mavs fan.

mcsluggo
02-16-2007, 01:28 PM
The question I'd like to know the answer to is this: Do more and more people identify themselves as gay, as homosexuality becomes more "mainstream" in our culture? Or are people these days gay in more or less the same proportion as they were, say, fifty years ago?

The answer to that would go a long way...

I assume what you are saying here is:
"as society has become more tollerant of gays, more people have DISCOVERED they are gay. Hence gay or not gay is a choice."

am I correct?

If that IS what you are saying, then c'mon! The "gay promotion society" is not winning over all that many people from the other team. Straight people have not been INDUCED to gayhood the last several years, rather gays that in previous years would have stayed in the closet (to avoid being bludgeoned to death) are now feeling confident enough to come out. Don'tcha think?

I am perfectly open to the concept of gay. I am comfortable around the gay culture, plenty of gay friends, used to go to gay dance bars. I lived in San Francisco for a little while. Hell, I would even consider wearing a light purple shirt, that was NOT a sports team shirt (well... not really, but you get the idea)

In fact, I would consider changing teams, if it wasn't for the ... you know... having sex with men aspect of it. That is a bit of a deal breaker for me... Although, my gay friends seem to have ALOT more hot straight chicks hanging around them than any of my straight friends do.... (so in THAT sense, perhaps there ARE "poseur gays"----- becoming "gay" to get the hot chicks!! THAT is strategery)

untitled
02-16-2007, 01:33 PM
That sounds simple, but what if someone wants a gay-free lifestyle? Is their dignity violated when a homosexual shows up in their lockeroom? Surely there is some chosen lifestyle you would choose to suppress in some form or another. Sex in public?
So, if YOU want to live a gay-free lifestyle, and if I am a gay person, I have to make sure never to cross your path so as not to interfere with your inherent dignity?

I suppose one who wants to live a gay-free lifestyle should 1) not be gay, and 2) not have any gay friends. Same as the KKK member that wishes to live a Jew-free lifestyle - don't be Jewish (not a choice) and don't have Jewish friends (a choice).

I just can't figure out why this is such a big deal. I have no idea what my friends like when it comes to the bedroom, and I gather many of you are in the same boat. If you found out that a good buddy lived a deviant lifestyle - say, he was really into S&M - would that all of a sudden have an impact on your friendship? Of course not - because that is not the nature of your relationship and as far as you and I are concerned, it's none of our business. There are few areas of one's life that are as private and personal as one's intimate relationships. If your friendship is purely platonic, why would another's intimate preferences matter one iota to you?

untitled
02-16-2007, 01:35 PM
The question I'd like to know the answer to is this: Do more and more people identify themselves as gay, as homosexuality becomes more "mainstream" in our culture? Or are people these days gay in more or less the same proportion as they were, say, fifty years ago?

The answer to that would go a long way...
It's an interesting question, indeed. The ancient Greeks sure liked man-butt (hell, they PREFERRED it - women were considered unclean), so...

Usually Lurkin
02-16-2007, 01:45 PM
So, if YOU want to live a gay-free lifestyle, and if I am a gay person, I have to make sure never to cross your path so as not to interfere with your inherent dignity?

I suppose one who wants to live a gay-free lifestyle should 1) not be gay, and 2) not have any gay friends. Same as the KKK member that wishes to live a Jew-free lifestyle - don't be Jewish (not a choice) and don't have Jewish friends (a choice).
hey, man. Talk to the German constitution. That's how Zaknaf3in described it. If your dignity is violated, is a constitutional issue. I'm just asking who gets to ask how anyone's dignity is violated. The New York Knicks, for instance, violated their own dignity long ago, and violate the dignity of every basketball fan every time they step out to play.

If you found out that a good buddy lived a deviant lifestyle - say, he was really into S&M - would that all of a sudden have an impact on your friendship?
yes, there are lots of things they might tell me that would impact our friendship in one way or another. Is there really nothing that your friend could tell you that they do in private that would impact your friendship?

WurzburgBorn
02-16-2007, 02:03 PM
untitled, the Greeks really didn't have much of a concept of homosexuality though. They distinguished sexuality differences not on the basis of what gender partner one preferred, but whether or not one liked to take it or give it, so to speak.

OzMavs
02-16-2007, 04:57 PM
untitled, the Greeks really didn't have much of a concept of homosexuality though. They distinguished sexuality differences not on the basis of what gender partner one preferred, but whether or not one liked to take it or give it, so to speak.

Yeah, it's the old, "I'm not gay but my boyfriend just might be" argument!

untitled
02-16-2007, 07:31 PM
Is there really nothing that your friend could tell you that they do in private that would impact your friendship?
"In private" can be VERY different than "in the bedroom".

If a friend told me that he liked to privately hack into people's computers to steal credit information, then yeah, I would have a problem with it.

If the same friend told me he liked to have his salad tossed while giving oral sex to half-Asian, half-Mexican midgets, I'd just make fun of him. But I wouldn't stop being his friend just because he's a weirdo in the sack - after all, I'M never going to have my salad tossed by him, and I'm a 6' tall white guy - so why the hell should I care?

untitled
02-16-2007, 07:34 PM
untitled, the Greeks really didn't have much of a concept of homosexuality though. They distinguished sexuality differences not on the basis of what gender partner one preferred, but whether or not one liked to take it or give it, so to speak.
Fair enough. But if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

And1
02-16-2007, 10:04 PM
bye-bye broadcast gig.:rolleyes:

Usually Lurkin
02-17-2007, 11:33 AM
"In private" can be VERY different than "in the bedroom".
...If a friend told me that he liked to privately hack into people's computers to steal credit information, then yeah, I would have a problem with it.
fair enough. Is there really *nothing* he could tell you about what he does in the bedroom that would affect your friendship? What if he told you he likes to sleep around with on his wife, or is gay but his wife doesn't know it? What if he told you he started smoking crack before having sex? Would that impact your friendship?

Presumably, you'd have a problem with the hacking and stealing because it's bad for your friend, and hurts other people, right? Are you of the mind that there is nothing that can occur in the bedroom that would be bad for your friend and hurt other people, or is the bedroom different for other reasons?

But I wouldn't stop being his friend just because he's a weirdo in the sack - after all, I'M never going to have my salad tossed by him, and I'm a 6' tall white guy - so why the hell should I care?
now, "stop being his friend" is VERY different than "have an impact on your friendship." To me, part of being a friend is helping each other stay in God's will.

untitled
02-17-2007, 11:44 AM
fair enough. Is there really *nothing* he could tell you about what he does in the bedroom that would affect your friendship? What if he told you he likes to sleep around with on his wife, or is gay but his wife doesn't know it? What if he told you he started smoking crack before having sex? Would that impact your friendship?
Adultery = illegal and morally reprehensible, IMO.
Homosexual adultery = ^same.
Smoking crack = illegal (and IMO, not a good life choice - however I wouldn't say it's morally wrong, per se).

Having sex = neither illegal nor morally reprehensible.

jthig32
02-17-2007, 12:01 PM
Adultery = illegal and morally reprehensible, IMO.
Homosexual adultery = ^same.
Smoking crack = illegal (and IMO, not a good life choice - however I wouldn't say it's morally wrong, per se).

Having sex = neither illegal nor morally reprehensible.

Adultery is illegal? :confused:

untitled
02-17-2007, 12:06 PM
now, "stop being his friend" is VERY different than "have an impact on your friendship." To me, part of being a friend is helping each other stay in God's will.
True, but what if your friend doesn't believe in God? What if he/she doesn't believe in the same God as you, and therefore views "God's will" differently? What if he/she does believe in the same God but feels that his perspective on this matter are different than yours?

My point is that I don't really feel comfortable telling others how to live their lives. There isn't one human being on this planet that KNOWS how we got here and what happens after we die. Athiests, agnostics, Mormons, Muslims - they ALL rely on faith for their beliefs. My opinion on how one should live their life is no more or less relevant than anyone else's. So, to me, part of being a friend is accepting others' perspectives but still living my life how I want to live it - as long as my friends' choices do not negatively impact those around him/her, I don't see a reason why I should interfere.

untitled
02-17-2007, 12:13 PM
Adultery is illegal? :confused:
Historically, it has been illegal. Now, it's not a crime and you can't go to jail for it, so I guess I should've used a different word than "illegal". But it is grounds for divorce, and Flaco will make a binding, contractual promise today to never do it.

So, I guess I should say it's against the written law in the sense that it's also against the law to commit the tort of conversion or breach of contract, but it's not criminal. What would be a better word for that?

kriD
02-18-2007, 04:11 AM
Shaq: I'd protect a gay teammate

By Chris Perkins
Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 17, 2007

LAS VEGAS — Former Heat guard Tim Hardaway has become a lightning rod for critics because of his anti-gay comments, but Heat center Shaquille O'Neal said he would protect a gay teammate if he was made a target.

"I was always taught as a youngster to never judge people, so I never judge people and to each their own," O'Neal said Friday during All-Star Weekend media sessions.

"If he was my teammate and people ridiculed him and jumped on him, I would probably have to protect him."

Other people around the NBA are afraid to discuss Hardaway's remarks.

"Who is Tim Hardaway?" former NBA star Bill Laimbeer said Friday when asked about Hardaway's remarks. "Next question."

Hardaway, who said Wednesday on a Miami radio show he hates gay people and would not want a gay player on his team, has been rebuked nationwide. He has since apologized but was sent home from Las Vegas, where he was making appearances on behalf of the league for the All-Star Game.

The firestorm began when Hardaway, asked to comment on former NBA player John Amaechi's declaration that he is gay, said there is no room for gay players in the league.

"I don't think he should be in the locker room while we are in the locker room," said Hardaway, who played five-plus seasons in Miami after being obtained from Golden State in February 1996.

Heat guard Dwyane Wade said he had no comment but then offered these thoughts: "Anybody who knows me knows I'm a guy who loves his teammates and if anything ever comes up like that, I don't look at that.

"I look at what guys can do for you on the court. And in the locker room you have great relationships with guys. I don't have any negative views."

Cleveland guard Damon Jones, usually talkative, said players can easily get in trouble when talking about "social issues and sexual preference, and you shy away from those issues."

Memphis forward Mike Miller played with Amaechi in Orlando and offered support: "He's a great person. Everyone has the right to be how they want be."

Asked if a gay player would be accepted, Miller said, "It would be difficult, but at the same time our league is a league that has taken on anything. We bring on and accept anything, and I think that's what's special about the NBA."

Without condoning his remarks, some expressed sympathy for Hardaway, who is well-liked by many.

"It was pretty shocking," former star Scottie Pippen said. "You hate to see that happen to one of your colleagues knowing the damage he's caused to himself, his family and friends ... I'm very disappointed it happened."

Heat forward Jason Kapono said the rest of the league doesn't agree with Hardaway.

"Everyone has their own views on life, and that's something that's obviously his point of view," Kapono said, "but that's definitely not the point of view of all the rest of us."

kriD
02-18-2007, 04:27 AM
NBA Insider

Hardaway's anti-gay talk amounts to double drivel

By DWAIN PRICE
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

Tim Hardaway must have lost his mind.

During a radio interview Wednesday in Miami, Hardaway said: "You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known. I don't like gay people, and I don't like to be around gay people.

"I am homophobic. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States."

What?

When will people like Tim Hardaway learn? Just because you've got a pocket full of money doesn't give you the right to go around spewing words of hatred while criticizing someone else's sexual orientation.

Hardaway, who played 14 years in the NBA -- including half-a-season for the Mavericks -- really put both feet squarely in his mouth when he took on the biggest issue that's making the rounds in the NBA today. Since nearly two weeks ago when former NBA player John Amaechi announced that he is gay, players currently in the league have either declined to comment about Amaechi or have chosen their words carefully.

Not Hardaway.

He kept bashing Amaechi and other gays as if he were on a personal crusade. It was discrimination in its worst form.

"First of all, I wouldn't want him on my team," Hardaway said of Amaechi. "And second of all, if he was on my team, I would, you know, really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that's right.

"And you know I don't think he should be in the locker room while we're in the locker room. I wouldn't even be a part of that."

It's amazing that in 2007, someone could say something so stupid.

Give the NBA credit for distancing itself from Hardaway. Commissioner David Stern banned Hardaway from taking part in any of the league's events during All-Star weekend in Las Vegas, and that was the right thing to do.

"It is inappropriate for him to be representing us given the disparity between his views and ours," Stern said in a statement.

While Hardaway's controversial comments were way out of line, this is an opportunity for the NBA to use its sport to start a dialogue about gay players in its league.

"This is an issue overall that has fascinated America," Stern said. "It's not an NBA issue. This is a country that needs to talk about this issue."

Just don't talk to Hardaway about it.

Hardaway did apologize for his asinine remarks. But only after realizing the firestorm he created.

"As an African-American, I know all too well the negative thoughts and feelings hatred and bigotry cause," Hardaway said in a statement released by his agent. "I regret and apologize for the statements that I made that have certainly caused the same kinds of feelings and reactions.

"I especially apologize to my fans, friends and family in Miami and Chicago. I am committed to examining my feelings and will recognize, appreciate and respect the differences among people in our society."

Unfortunately, Hardaway's apology was late -- and probably hollow. He will probably be remembered as the player who believed homosexuals don't have a place in this world.

rabbitproof
02-18-2007, 06:10 AM
Tim was out of line.
I don't believe it's a choice and I do believe that no man is qualified to judge his fellow man's actions. Just take care of yourself.

WurzburgBorn
02-18-2007, 09:23 AM
Thought police!
What a terrible liberal PC society we live in that won't even allow basketball players to direct hatred at whatever group of people they want without them being called out for it and not being allowed to represent the league anymore. Tim Hardaway is the clear victim of bigoted discrimination by David Stern and the NBA! What happened to freedom of speech?

lol

bernardos70
02-18-2007, 01:05 PM
The whole issue aside, Hardaway is a complete moron. Did he think there was going to be no repercussion to those comments? As a public person, you have to watch what you say. He has a lot to lose, and he in fact lost it.

And anyone thinking about bringing up the "he has the right to say anything he wants, whether I agree with him or not," go ahead, but I'll hit you right back with "he does, so long as he's prepared to deal with the repercussions."

Dirkadirkastan
02-18-2007, 01:42 PM
True, but what if your friend doesn't believe in God? What if he/she doesn't believe in the same God as you, and therefore views "God's will" differently? What if he/she does believe in the same God but feels that his perspective on this matter are different than yours?

What if a ten-year-old believes his or her parents have no authority? Does that make it so?

bernardos70
02-18-2007, 02:10 PM
Seriously, wtf is the post above? I'm gonna go ahead and abstain from pointing out how bad an analogy that is.

Murphy3
02-18-2007, 03:01 PM
I think we're all in agreeance here that homosexuals are pretty much gay in general.

Dirkadirkastan
02-18-2007, 03:11 PM
Seriously, wtf is the post above? I'm gonna go ahead and abstain from pointing out how bad an analogy that is.

"Perception is reality" is bullshit. I just hate the response "What if I don't believe in God?" because that point is irrelevant. The morality or lack thereof of homosexuality (among many other things) may hinge on the actual existence or nonexistence of God, but not on whether you think God exists or not.

WurzburgBorn
02-18-2007, 04:42 PM
"Perception is reality" is bullshit. I just hate the response "What if I don't believe in God?" because that point is irrelevant. The morality or lack thereof of homosexuality (among many other things) may hinge on the actual existence or nonexistence of God, but not on whether you think God exists or not.

huh?
The only reason untitled used the phrase "belief in God" is because people disagree about it. One could just say "okay, since God clearly does not exist, how can homosexuality be immoral?" but not everyone agrees that God does not exist. That's precisely why the question is presented in terms of some people not "believing" in God. Because people don't all agree. Nobody suggested that "perception is reality."

TheTao
02-18-2007, 11:31 PM
Why is this whole discussion about the locker room? Fact: in the overwhelming majority of jobs a employee does not shower at work. Fact: playing basketball is a job. Fact: a gay person can not legally be discriminated against in the work place. The whole argument about men and women sharing a locker room, as an analogy to gay men and hetero-men sharing one, is moot. If a supervisor said that I HAD to shower in front of either a man or a women at the workplace--I'm a teacher--I would look at them like they were insane, then sue them. Fact: an NBA player who showers in a lockeroom is making a personal choice to do so; nowhere in a contract for NBA employment does it say one MUST shower with the team. If an NBA player does not want to shower in front of other men, he does not have to. If an NBA player does not want to play basketball with a gay man, he does not have to, nor does he then get paid: it's his job to play basketball, he can make the choice.

Murphy3
02-18-2007, 11:43 PM
I think you're missing the point of the gay man making subtle thrusts of his hips towards the heteros.. You know it'd happen. When they aren't looking, the gay guy would be licking his lips and visualizing himself making dirty hard gay sex with the other men. You know that's what Johnny Gay-Gay Amaechi was doing. He was visualizing making unsweet and unclean sexual intercourse to the anuses of every player that he ever 'played with'. I'm sorry, but heteros should not be subjected to such.

And here's what's worse. John Amaechi could have been quietly 'taking care of business' while no one was watching... and then all of a sudden one of his teammates feels something hit him in the back.. Surely it was just water, wasn't it? Nope. It was John Amaechi just finishing up his business.

TheTao
02-19-2007, 12:25 AM
I think you're missing the point of the gay man making subtle thrusts of his hips towards the heteros.. You know it'd happen.

Won't quote the rest because it's plainly inappropriate. Reminds me of the homophobic father in American Beauty, who has repressed thoughts, and rather than confront them kills another man he suspects to be gay. Lots of hate here, towards self and others.

Moreover, clearly one who could say such hateful things, thought them first. A question:
wouldn't a man who fantasized similary about a female co-worker be equally troubled, perverse, and despicable?

The truth is men and women everyday create fantasies about others they encounter in the workplace, in the grocery story, at a bar, etc. It's a sickness...

Just kidding. Regardless of sexual orientation, everyone does think about sex: it's human nature. However, our sexual thoughts are for the most part private, except in which case that we decide to post them in a public basketball forum...

TheTao
02-19-2007, 12:37 AM
I think you're missing the point of the... Too vulgar to quote more.

Vulgarity and Sexual Explicitness -- As a community with a diverse variety of members and readers, we ask that our members to post without using vulgarity. Vulgarity not only includes vulgar language and pictures but also sexist, racist, anti-religious and homophobic language which may offend other members. In addition, the "masking" of vulgarity by inserting * or another keystroke in place of one or more letters in a vulgar term is acceptable in most cases. However, all uses of vulgarity are open to editing or deletion by moderators. We realize that there's a "grey area" of judgment with vulgarity but we ask that you'll respect others by avoiding vulgarity and our right to determine what constitutes it and take appropriate action.

untitled
02-19-2007, 12:42 AM
I'm sorry, but heteros should not be subjected to such.
Tell that to just about every hetero woman in this country. I know I'm guilty of undressing more than a few women with my own eyes. Don't you think that might be a little uncomfortable for them, too?



"Why can't I walk down a street free of suggestion?
Is my body the only trait in the eye's of men?

I've got some skin
You want to look in

There lays no reward in what you discover
You spent yourself watching me suffer
Suffer you words, suffer your eyes, suffer your hands
Suffer your interpretation of what it is to be a man

I've got some skin
You want to look in

She does nothing to deserve it
He only wants to observe it
We sit back like they taught us
We keep quiet like they taught us
He just wants to prove it
She does nothing to remove it
We don't want anyone to mind us
So we play the roles that they assigned us
She does nothing to conceal it
He touches her 'cause he wants to feel it
We blame her for being there
But we are all guilty"

- Ian MacKaye, 1989.

TheTao
02-19-2007, 12:58 AM
Private thoughts AND public words can be acts of violence...


If you have read the posts in this thread, ask yourself "where do I hear HATE?"

untitled
02-19-2007, 01:05 AM
Too vulgar to quote more.

Vulgarity and Sexual Explicitness -- As a community with a diverse variety of members and readers, we ask that our members to post without using vulgarity. Vulgarity not only includes vulgar language and pictures but also sexist, racist, anti-religious and homophobic language which may offend other members. In addition, the "masking" of vulgarity by inserting * or another keystroke in place of one or more letters in a vulgar term is acceptable in most cases. However, all uses of vulgarity are open to editing or deletion by moderators. We realize that there's a "grey area" of judgment with vulgarity but we ask that you'll respect others by avoiding vulgarity and our right to determine what constitutes it and take appropriate action.
C'mon man, lighten up a bit. I agree with you, for the most part, but Murph was just being Murph - and I doubt he meant any harm by it.

This discussion has been pretty interesting and entertaining for me, and everyone seems to be debating these issues in a civil manner. Let's not turn this into a pissing contest or call the mods into the thread to referee.

Murphy3
02-19-2007, 05:08 AM
TheTao, I would sincerely hope that you'd be able to read a post such as mine and see just how over the top it is and realize that it surely cannot be a serious one. Perhaps I wrote the thread to such an extreme manner in one direction to prove a point for the other.

I don't know...it's just a thought.

TheTao
02-19-2007, 10:51 AM
TheTao I would sincerely hope that you'd be able to read a post such as mine and see just how over the top it is and realize that it surely cannot be a serious one.

Point taken. I still think the shower imagery is gross and out of place in a b-ball forum, and also was not sure what you meant; that's why my original post was written so it could be interpreted in two ways: if you were serious, I was suggesting you were a self-loathing sexually repressed bigot, but if you spoke in jest, I was also saying (with a wink) don't we all really think about sex everyday. In terms of the latter, our private sexual thoughts are neither here nor there when it comes to the workplace.

As I said in an earlier post, everyone has the right to work......

alexamenos
02-19-2007, 10:59 AM
Private thoughts AND public words can be acts of violence..."

a) care to guess what I'm thinking?
b) do you feel like a victim of violence?

alexamenos
02-19-2007, 11:02 AM
I think you're missing the point of the gay man making subtle thrusts of his hips towards the heteros.. You know it'd happen. When they aren't looking, the gay guy would be licking his lips and visualizing himself making dirty hard gay sex with the other men. You know that's what Johnny Gay-Gay Amaechi was doing. He was visualizing making unsweet and unclean sexual intercourse to the anuses of every player that he ever 'played with'. I'm sorry, but heteros should not be subjected to such.

And here's what's worse. John Amaechi could have been quietly 'taking care of business' while no one was watching... and then all of a sudden one of his teammates feels something hit him in the back.. Surely it was just water, wasn't it? Nope. It was John Amaechi just finishing up his business.

you could probably write harlequin romance novels if you wanted to.

TheTao
02-19-2007, 11:10 AM
[QUOTE=TheTao]Private thoughts AND public words can be acts of violence...

It IS wrong to harbor hateful thoughts towards a particular group of people because quite often such thoughts lead to violence. If we are honest we'll acknowldge that the logical consequence of hating someone is that one who hates wishes the other dead. Hardaway would never admit this much, but if we follow his thinking to it's logical consequences it would result in him living in a world in which he never had to encounter a gay person: such a world could only exist if people who were gay did not exist. Hardaway's comments are violent because they bring to mind images of Hitler, the Klu Klux Klan, and Stalin--people who actualized their hate.

I think what is important here is for someone that hates to be truly honest about the potential consequences of his or her hate...

alexamenos
02-19-2007, 11:35 AM
It IS wrong to harbor hateful thoughts towards a particular group of people because quite often such thoughts lead to violence.

so you're altering your stance a little bit, here....private thoughts and publics aren't violence per se, but rather they can *often lead to violence*.

.....so Tao, what would you do????

a little preventative warfare on things that may lead to violence....so-n-so may be harboring bad thoughts, so-n-so may be building W. M. D.s (Words of Mean Disposition), perhaps we should invade his house and liberate his pets???

anyhoo....

...what was it jesus said, something like "verily if you even think about bitch slapping a homo, it's as much as doing it for real and i'll jack you up bad for doing it." something along those lines, tho I may be paraphrasing.

point being...most folks, thinking folks at least, living in the christian west have thought one time or another about the ramifications of their thoughts. so, it takes a real arrogant fuck to think spouting whacked out commie chinese i ching nonsense is going to enlighten anyone in the least.

cheers

TheTao
02-19-2007, 01:32 PM
most folks, thinking folks at least, living in the christian west have thought one time or another about the ramifications of their thoughts

This thread is about Hardaway's anti-gay comments and his subsequent public retraction of them. Obviously Hardaway said something before he thought about it, and now that he has been called out by so many (Shaq, Stern, the media, NBA fans, etc.) he has reconsidered his words. I suppose if you get down to it, all the posts in this forum essentially challenge us to reconsider our views on things, from the advantage of starting George over Harris to an ex-NBA player making anti-gay statements. While I have a certain bias towards a starting backcourt of Harris and Terry, I am interested to hear what others think, with the understanding that I may in fact re-think my stance and change my mind. I suspect that you, too, believe that even I might re-think my views, or else why would you have sent a response?

mavsman
02-22-2007, 03:36 PM
Mr. Sulu's message for Tim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA20dKc3kK8)

WurzburgBorn
02-22-2007, 05:09 PM
Mr. Sulu's message for Tim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA20dKc3kK8)

Oh my gosh. That's hillarious! Great stuff.