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jeffajufo
10-11-2007, 01:38 PM
I got bored a few weeks ago and started thinking "If I were to make an all time NBA team, who would be on it? Who would start, and who would come off the bench?"



C Bill Russell
F Tim Duncan
F Larry Bird
G Magic Johnson
G Michael Jordan

After debating it with my buddy Taimur, I realized I had to reconsider the starting center position, and expand the team to 12 players. Mostly by putting who I thought were the greatest of all time at ther positions, this is what I came up with.

C Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
F Tim Duncan
F Larry Bird
G Magic Johnson
G Michael Jordan

Bill Russell,Karl Malone,Charles Barkley,Jerry West,Oscar Robertson,John Stockton,Shaquille O'Neal


I don't know if 12 is enough for a team like this,maybe 15. But that's what I did. I'd love to see other people's lists

Hitman
10-11-2007, 01:44 PM
Your first list is the one I usually see. The C position is the one that is usually argued, with votes split among Russel and Chamberlain, usually. Not sure you can leave Wilt off your team entirely.

I don't think Malone and Stockton can both be on the all time team since they never won it all together but played their entire primes with each other. But, then again, what do I know.

jeffajufo
10-11-2007, 01:56 PM
Your first list is the one I usually see. The C position is the one that is usually argued, with votes split among Russel and Chamberlain, usually. Not sure you can leave Wilt off your team entirely.

I don't think Malone and Stockton can both be on the all time team since they never won it all together but played their entire primes with each other. But, then again, what do I know.


I was torn between Russell and Wilt for the second C, and went with Russell because I think he's the best defensive center ever, and the greatest winner in the history of the leage(11 titles in 13 years will never be topped) and because his teams always beat wilts teams in the playoffs. I also asked myself "If Shaq played C in that era, what would he have done". His stats per 48 minutes compared favorably to Wilt's(using basketball reference.com) and his PER was higher. The one thing that Wilt had over him was the rebounding average per game, which is why I asked myself that question. Not that Wilt isn't a good choice, I just liked Shaq better in that spot.

Malone is on my list because before Duncan, it was pretty much universally accepted that Malone was the greatest power forward to ever play the game. Stockton is the NBA's career leader in assists and steals. They didn't win it all,but a lot of that had to do with the guy I put as my starting SG.

dalmations202
10-11-2007, 02:40 PM
Best 12 All-Time

Wilt, Russell
Duncan, Dirk
Bird, Doc J,
Jordan, Kobe
Magic, Robertson

11&12 are Kareem, and Gervin

Wilt was the best offensive center and arguably the best offensive player to ever play the game. Russell is quite possibly the best defensive. Kareem had longevity and ability.

Duncan is Mr. Fundamental. I chose Dirk over Malone because Dirk revolutionized the PF position. He has moved the PF position from an inside position to an outside/inside one.

Bird and Doc were just beautiful to watch.

Jordan and Kobe are the only two players I have ever thought had a chance to win titles without major frontcourt contributors - although Kobe needs to prove he can do it without Shaq.

Magic and Big O really don't need any explanation, IMO.

Gervin, man I just liked watching him score. The ice man made the game fun.

Honoralbe mention goes to Moses Malone -- I haven't seen a harder working individual on the court. He always reminded me of a Shaq build guy with Ben Wallaces temperment.

This would be my choice off the top of my head. I am sure I would probably change several of them if I was thinking properly because man there are several out there like West, Havlachek, Akeem, etc that really deserve consideration as well. Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Isiah Thomas, Clyde Drexler, Mark Aguirre, Iverson, Pippen, McHale, Parrish, and the Admiral were all very nice players as well, but I wouldn't consider them to be top 12. JMO though.
<edit> James Worthy needs to be mentioned here as well, but I have no idea where I would put him.

Also, you said start, and then come off the bench.

I would start Russell, Duncan, Bird, Jordan, and Big O.
2nd Team would be Wilt, Dirk, DrJ, Kobe, and Magic.

Kareem first frontcourt replacement, and Gervin first backcourt.

If these two teams played each other 100 times, I have no idea which team would win the most, although I suspect team 1 because I would have to give them the edge on defense. I'd give the offensive edge to team 2 though by the slightest of margins.

nowhereman
10-11-2007, 02:48 PM
dirk's not in the conversation. sorry to break it to you, but he has accomplished comparatively very little in his career to date. Changing the game doesn't mean anything if you don't win and rack up accolades along the way. For Christ's sake, Tony Parker has changed the point guard position.

kareem won the finals mvp twice - at the ages of 24 and 38. he was elected to 10 all nba first-defensive teams, and is the alltime scoring champion. he won the mvp 6 times. he led the league in PER 8 times (more than Jordan, who led it 7. More than Bird, who led it 3. More than Dirk.. who did it once). He was elected to the all-nba first team 10 times. That is how many times wilt and russell made it COMBINED. He's won 6 championships.

I'm sorry, Kareem is the greatest center of all time. It's not even close.

Dirkgreatness
10-11-2007, 03:00 PM
Very little?

2007 NBA Most Valuable Player (First Euro Born Player)
Six-time All-Star
Seven-time All-NBA
2002 World Championships MVP
2005 EuroBasket MVP
2006 All-Star Three-Point Shootout Champion (Tallest Player Ever to Win)

I agree that Dirk doesn't belong with those guys.... yet.

Underdog
10-11-2007, 03:13 PM
There are very few active players without a handful of rings that you can fairly include/exclude from this list...

The safe bet is to choose a bunch of retirees so nobody can debate you - I certainly haven't seen Kobe on anyone's list and he might very well be one of the best individual players that this game has ever seen (well, after Jordan, of course...)

nowhereman
10-11-2007, 03:14 PM
1: forwards who rank well ahead of Dirk in terms of all-time lists

-Bob Pettit (2 mvps, multiple rings, league PER leader 4 times, 10 all-nba first team selections to Dirk's 3)

-Karl Malone (2 mvps, 11 time all-nba first team selection <again, dirk had 3>, 3 times all-nba first-team defense)

-Elgin Baylor (First team all-nba 10 times, career averages of 27.5 points, 13.5 rb, 4.3 asts)

- And hell, if we use your standards, lets put Kevin Garnett on there too: 2 times has had a higher PER than Dirk's career best mark, 10 allstar teams to Dirk's 6, 8 all-nba to dirk's 7, and 8 all-defense teams to dirks.. 0.

Look. Dirk's a really good player. This is an all-time all-nba list. Dirk doesn't belong close to this list right now.

2: This is a thread for an all-time NBA team. So why does his resume include being a world championships mvp or an eurobasket mvp?

3: f*cking hell. Eurobasket MVP? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurobasket#MVP_awards WHO THE HELL IS IMPRESSED BY THAT? World Championship MVP? the guy who won it before dirk was Dejan Bodrigo. WHERE THE HELL IS DEJAN BODRIGO ON YOUR ALL TIME ALL-NBA TEAM?

4 tallest player to win a 3 point shootout? that makes him an anomaly, nothing more.

dalmations202
10-11-2007, 03:23 PM
dirk's not in the conversation. sorry to break it to you, but he has accomplished very little in his career to date.

kareem won the finals mvp twice - at the ages of 24 and 38. he was elected to 10 all nba first-defensive teams, and is the alltime scoring champion. he won the mvp 6 times. he led the league in PER 8 times (more than Jordan, who led it 7. More than Bird, who led it 3. More than Dirk.. who did it once). He was elected to the all-nba first team 10 times. That is how many times wilt and russell made it COMBINED. He's won 6 championships.

I'm sorry, Kareem is the greatest center of all time. It's not even close.

Sorry, I don't want to diminish what Kareem did, he was a fantastic player, and if you want to argue the greatest fine, but it is alot closer than you think. Wilt scored 100. Wilt dominated offensively period. Russell WON more titles. Russell was twice the defensive presence that Kareem was.

Dirk avgs more pts and rebounds per game than Malone in the playoffs. Neither have a championship. Dirk is still in his prime though, and possibly can have one. Malone does win the regular season avg and rpg though, and if you want to argue Karl instead of Dirk, I can understand that. I still haven't seen Karl Malone do some of the things Dirk can though. Karl was more like Duncan than Dirk. No one had done the things Dirk has at 7' though. Dirk is unique, and that is why I would put him on my list.

I need to add that many could argue that KGarnett is better than both Dirk and Malone --- not that they would get anywhere in my books.

A Quote from NBA.com on Wilt:

The record books are indeed heavy with Chamberlain's accomplishments. He was the only NBA player to score 4,000 points in a season. He set NBA single-game records for most points (100), most consecutive field goals (18) and most rebounds (55). Perhaps his most mind-boggling stat was the 50.4 points per game he averaged during the 1961-62 season--and if not that, then perhaps the 48.5 minutes per game he averaged that same year.

He retired as the all-time in career points with 31,419, which was later surpassed by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Karl Malone and Michael Jordan. He is tops in rebounds with 23,924. He led the NBA in scoring seven years in a row. He was the league's top rebounder in 11 of his 14 seasons. And as if to prove that he was not a selfish player, he had the NBA's highest assist total in 1967-68.

But the most outstanding figures are his scoring records; Most games with 50+ points, 118; Most consecutive games with 40+ points, 14; Most consecutive games with 30+ points: 65; Most consecutive games with 20+ points: 126; Highest rookie scoring average: 37.6 ppg; Highest field goal percentage in a season: .727. And with many of these, the player in second place is far behind. His name appears so often in the scoring record books that his name could be the default response any time a question arises concerning a scoring record in the NBA.

During his career, his dominance precipitated many rules changes. These rules changed included widening the lane, instituting offensive goaltending and revising rules governing inbounding the ball and shooting free throws (Chamberlain would leap with the ball from behind the foul line to deposit the ball in the basket).

No other player in NBA history has spawned so many myths nor created such an impact.
Also a note, Wilt did it in 14yrs. Kareem 19, Malone 18, Jordan 15 years.

Dirkgreatness
10-11-2007, 03:24 PM
Dude, Dirks hasn't retired yet so he has a shot ranking ahead of some of them...... and who the f*** cares... damn! Its a different league than it was back then anyways.

nowhereman
10-11-2007, 03:46 PM
Okay. Enjoy your fluff quote from NBA.com. I'm going to use arguments

1. Kareem: career efg% 55.9
Wilt: career efg% 54.0

2. Kareem: career true shooting% 59.2
Wilt: career ts% 54.7

3. The quote you use talks about rule changes institued because of Wilt. So presumably, if Kareem had the same advantagous rules to function that Wilt did, would his stats not have been comparable and possibly even better?

4. Kareem won 6 MVP trophies, his last in 1979-1980 at the age of 32. Wilt won 4 MVP trophies, his last also at the age of 32. Kareem was more widely heralded as the most valuable player of the generation.

5. Russell won more titles on a team with other players that won more titles. This does not mean Bob Cousy was a better point guard than Magic Johnson.

6. Russell was elected to the all-nba second team 7 times, and the first team 3 times. This means that in his generation, 70% of the time he was an all-league player, there was a consensus player that was better at his position.

7. Kareem made the all-defense first team 10 times. where the hell do you get off saying russell was "twice" the defender Kareem was?

Look. There's clearly two standards here, individual brilliance and team performance. You cannot find a center that fulfilled both even nearly to the extent that kareem did.

dalmations202
10-11-2007, 03:49 PM
Guess it comes down to what you consider important to a " All Time NBA Team".

If Duncan, Dirk, and Kobe can't be on it because their careers are not over yet --- so be it. If I think they belong, and I am giving out the award, so be it. If you think they don't, and you are giving out the award, so be it.

Personally, I forgot about Pettit and Baylor, so yes, I would probably remove Dirk and Duncan for these two. Giving stats about how many popularity contests won though doesn't do it for me. Now winning games, scoring, rebounding, etc.... that impresses me. Being called MVP or First Team All-NBA instead of All-NBA is back to a popularity contest and an award given by mediots. Leading the league in scoring, rebounding, etc., and winning games, that is the statistics I look at as well as being old enough to have seen most (not all) of these players play.

Times are different though, and many people have their own opinion.

nowhereman
10-11-2007, 03:49 PM
Dirk avgs more pts and rebounds per game than Malone in the playoffs.

exactly. It's an average. When Dirk's not as great as he is now at the end of his career, his numbers aren't going to be as inflated as they are currently.

and being 7 foot tall and doing this stuff doesn't make you change the league. It doesn't make people train to be 7 feet tall. There are still very few players that are able to emulate what Dirk does. He hasn't changed the league. He's been the impetus for a slight trend in how big men play outside more, but nothing shows that this will be sustained. In fact, the most heralded big men coming into the league right now are strictly inside players.

nowhereman
10-11-2007, 03:54 PM
Guess it comes down to what you consider important to a " All Time NBA Team".

If Duncan, Dirk, and Kobe can't be on it because their careers are not over yet --- so be it. If I think they belong, and I am giving out the award, so be it. If you think they don't, and you are giving out the award, so be it.

Personally, I forgot about Pettit and Baylor, so yes, I would probably remove Dirk and Duncan for these two. Giving stats about how many popularity contests won though doesn't do it for me. Now winning games, scoring, rebounding, etc.... that impresses me. Being called MVP or First Team All-NBA instead of All-NBA is back to a popularity contest and an award given by mediots. Leading the league in scoring, rebounding, etc., and winning games, that is the statistics I look at as well as being old enough to have seen most (not all) of these players play.

Times are different though, and many people have their own opinion.

Being called MVP and all-nba is not a popularity contest, it is our most functional way of assessing where a player was relative to his peers, as these players play in different generations. I think it's the best tool to view these players on an even scale.

I put Duncan on my list because he's won it 4 times. I think Dirk is about as good a player as Duncan is, but I can't put him there because he doesn't have the bling to get there quite yet. But if Dirk sustains his torrid assault for the record books in terms of efficiency and all-league teams, he will most definitely be in the conversation for best all-time at the end of his career. He just isn't there yet.

my list, FYI

C: Kareem, Wilt, Russell
PF: Malone, Duncan
SF: Bird, Moses,
SG: Jordan, West
PG: Magic, Robertson, Cousy

I can't put Dr. J in since it's an NBA list.. and Tim Duncan never had to face Jordan in the finals =P

gervin and kobe are compelling arguments but I don't think Gervin did quite enough, and i think kobe just needs to be in a winning program outside of shaq for a couple of seasons to crack through. Though Stockton was a better player than Cousy, I have to reward the excellence of those early celtics.

ty
10-11-2007, 03:58 PM
In fact, the most heralded big men coming into the league right now are strictly inside players.

...like Bargnani and Durant? =x

DirkFTW
10-11-2007, 04:12 PM
...like Bargnani and Durant? =x
Greg vanWinkle Oden, DDS =)

nowhereman
10-11-2007, 04:14 PM
bargnani is hardly heralded, and durant is playing shooting guard, dude.

i meant dwight howard, emeka okafor, and greg oden.

dalmations202
10-11-2007, 04:22 PM
Okay. Enjoy your fluff quote from NBA.com. I'm going to use arguments

1. Kareem: career efg% 55.9
Wilt: career efg% 54.0

2. Kareem: career true shooting% 59.2
Wilt: career ts% 54.7

OK no argument.

3. The quote you use talks about rule changes institued because of Wilt. So presumably, if Kareem had the same advantagous rules to function that Wilt did, would his stats not have been comparable and possibly even better?
Not necessarily, this is a wild assumption that might be correct and might not be correct

4. Kareem won 6 MVP trophies, his last in 1979-1980 at the age of 32. Wilt won 4 MVP trophies, his last also at the age of 32. Kareem was more widely heralded as the most valuable player of the generation.
Popularity contest for the MVP -- Jordan was easily the best at least 10 times and only won 5. Stating that Kareem was more widely heralded as the most valuable player of the generation, I have never heard. Wilt was a legend. Kareem was a long lasting very good player. I watched Kareem throughout all of his LA career, and I never once thought he was the greatest player to ever play the game. PS: if you don't think MVP is a popularity contest Steve Nash 2 -time MVP who led the league in basically nothing, and never took his team to the finals with numerous All-Stars.

5. Russell won more titles on a team with other players that won more titles. This does not mean Bob Cousy was a better point guard than Magic Johnson.
Agreed -- but can't the same be said of Kareem? I mean all the 80's titles came with Magic and Worthy. The one in the 70's he had Oscar Robertson. Kareem was arguably not the best player on his team, much less the best center ever.

6. Russell was elected to the all-nba second team 7 times, and the first team 3 times. This means that in his generation, 70% of the time he was an all-league player, there was a consensus player that was better at his position.

I hate these comparisons because they are purely a popularity contest. Yao gets the most votes for All-Star nearly every year, but that doesn't make him the best Center in the league.

7. Kareem made the all-defense first team 10 times. where the hell do you get off saying russell was "twice" the defender Kareem was?

I got it from watching the games. Kareem was not a "great" defender at all in my opinion --- he just had the name. Wilt said that Russell was the best defensive center he ever played against. Russell has 11 championships in 13 years and played against Chamberlain (the best scoring center of his time) extensively.
As Oscar Robertson put it in the Philadelphia Daily News when asked whether Chamberlain was the best ever, "The books don't lie."
The Big O played with Kareem in Mil from 70-74 and was arguably the best player on that team that won the championship.


Look. There's clearly two standards here, individual brilliance and team performance. You cannot find a center that fulfilled both even nearly to the extent that kareem did.

I can argue, (you might not agree with it), that Kareem was never the best player on his own team when he won any of those championships. So if you want to argue team performance, then Russell wins. If you want to argue individual performance then Chamberlain wins. If you want both, then I could see Kareem in there -- although I have no idea how you said it isn't arguable and we have been arguing it for a while now. ;)


______________________________

Thanks Nowhere, it has been fun in this argument. I've got to go for now though.

Five-ofan
10-11-2007, 04:23 PM
if we are going based on what they did statistically its one thing if we are actually trying to create a team its another. If we are doing it based on actually fielding the best team russell doesnt make it. Im sorry but id take hakeem over him defensively and honestly it isnt that close. Hell i might take wilt over him defensively. And fyi wilt averaged 24 and 22 against russell in the playoffs. His teammates just couldnt matchup.

My team if we are actually trying to make a team
Wilt-shaq
Hakeem-duncan
Pippen-bird
Jordan-oscar
Magic-isiah

my team if we are going with the best player ever at each positions

wilt-kareem
duncan-elvin hayes
bird-pippen
mj-oscar
magic-isiah

if we were putting a team to play together how could anyone do anything to a team that had mj pippen and hakeem and wiltas the 2-3-4-5? That would be the most athletic 2-5 combo ever. People forget how dominant the jordan bulls were defensively which is largely for 2 reasons 1-pippen is the best defensive player of all time though he will never get recognition for it because hes not a big and 2-they were the most athletic team ever. magic was a poor defender but you could stick him on the worst player for the other team. I would have taken gp instead of him and given up 55 points a game but decided i wanted a distributor on offense instead.

Underdog
10-11-2007, 04:46 PM
and being 7 foot tall and doing this stuff doesn't make you change the league. It doesn't make people train to be 7 feet tall.


No, but it does train 7-footers to become more athletic...

If Dirk hasn't changed the game, then why is every team lining up to find the next athletic European 7-footer?

Five-ofan
10-11-2007, 05:39 PM
OK no argument.

Not necessarily, this is a wild assumption that might be correct and might not be correct

Popularity contest for the MVP -- Jordan was easily the best at least 10 times and only won 5. Stating that Kareem was more widely heralded as the most valuable player of the generation, I have never heard. Wilt was a legend. Kareem was a long lasting very good player. I watched Kareem throughout all of his LA career, and I never once thought he was the greatest player to ever play the game. PS: if you don't think MVP is a popularity contest Steve Nash 2 -time MVP who led the league in basically nothing, and never took his team to the finals with numerous All-Stars.

Agreed -- but can't the same be said of Kareem? I mean all the 80's titles came with Magic and Worthy. The one in the 70's he had Oscar Robertson. Kareem was arguably not the best player on his team, much less the best center ever.

I hate these comparisons because they are purely a popularity contest. Yao gets the most votes for All-Star nearly every year, but that doesn't make him the best Center in the league.

I got it from watching the games. Kareem was not a "great" defender at all in my opinion --- he just had the name. Wilt said that Russell was the best defensive center he ever played against. Russell has 11 championships in 13 years and played against Chamberlain (the best scoring center of his time) extensively.
As Oscar Robertson put it in the Philadelphia Daily News when asked whether Chamberlain was the best ever, "The books don't lie."
The Big O played with Kareem in Mil from 70-74 and was arguably the best player on that team that won the championship.



I can argue, (you might not agree with it), that Kareem was never the best player on his own team when he won any of those championships. So if you want to argue team performance, then Russell wins. If you want to argue individual performance then Chamberlain wins. If you want both, then I could see Kareem in there -- although I have no idea how you said it isn't arguable and we have been arguing it for a while now. ;)


______________________________

Thanks Nowhere, it has been fun in this argument. I've got to go for now though.
Kareem was at his best when he was in milwaukee not when he was in LA. and oscar was still dang good but not what he used to be when they won that title.

nowhereman
10-11-2007, 05:55 PM
No, but it does train 7-footers to become more athletic...

If Dirk hasn't changed the game, then why is every team lining up to find the next athletic European 7-footer?

We might never see another player like Dirk again. That's why I am reluctant to think he has changed the way people play basketball.. I would have to see at least one other team be as succesful as the mavs have with a 7-footer that can shoot like Larry Bird.

People are looking internationally because it's a fresh talent pool. But people looking at Darko and Bargnani and other international athletic 7-footers so far is only a trend. I don't think we'll know if he's changed the league until years from now.

nowhereman
10-11-2007, 05:59 PM
I can argue, (you might not agree with it), that Kareem was never the best player on his own team when he won any of those championships. So if you want to argue team performance, then Russell wins. If you want to argue individual performance then Chamberlain wins. If you want both, then I could see Kareem in there -- although I have no idea how you said it isn't arguable and we have been arguing it for a while now. ;)

______________________________

Thanks Nowhere, it has been fun in this argument. I've got to go for now though.

Okay, fair enough, there is definitely room to debate. I just think that kareem's sustained excellence individually and his success in terms of rings just puts him an unqualified first on the list. With Russell you can always say he wasn't the best center of the time because Wilt led him in most categories, and with Wilt you could say he wasn't the best because Russell won all the championships. It's a good debate, I just think that Kareem is the best overall candidate.

But I guess you can't go wrong with any of those guys playing center for your dream team, now can you :-P

dalmations202
10-11-2007, 08:47 PM
Okay, fair enough, there is definitely room to debate. I just think that kareem's sustained excellence individually and his success in terms of rings just puts him an unqualified first on the list. With Russell you can always say he wasn't the best center of the time because Wilt led him in most categories, and with Wilt you could say he wasn't the best because Russell won all the championships. It's a good debate, I just think that Kareem is the best overall candidate.

But I guess you can't go wrong with any of those guys playing center for your dream team, now can you :-P
Those three, Akeem, and Shaq are very very good.

Is Duncan a PF or C?

I mean Duncan really plays the C position, except they try to keep him out of fouls by playing a C with him.

jeffajufo
10-11-2007, 08:57 PM
Dirk does not belong on this list. You won't find a bigger Dirk fan than me, but he simply hasn't done enough compared to the others to even be in the convo. And if he did, you wouldn't have to use the accolades he received playing in EUROPE for an ALL-TIME NBA team.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar to me is the greatest big man of all, and It's really not close in my opinion. He scored like Wilt did(Career All Time Leading Scorer) and he played great defense like Russell(10 ALL NBA Defensive Teams). His ability to play BOTH ends of the court with the collective brilliance that Russell and Wilt played with is what makes him the best center ever. I wouldn't hold the fact that Russell won 11 titles against Kareem. While Russell certainly anchored those defensive teams, you can make the argument that he wasn't necessarily the best player,or MVP of the team during ALL 11 titles, Just like you can say Kareem wasn't the MVP of the finals every time he won a title. If we were to put people ahead JUST on number of rings without any regard to their individual brilliance in relation to their opponents/leaguewide team competitive strength, it would be impossible to make a list like this at all. Robert Horry has 7 titles. Does that make him a greater player than Charles Barkley?

The trouble with saying a guy revolutionized a game,and citing rule changes as evidence, is that it doesn't always speak to the level of greatness of a player, and it unfairly penalizes another athlete simply because he was a generation late? Roy Williams had a rule changed after him, and I wouldn't put him as the all time greatest safety if I were to do a list like that for football.

Karl Malone revolutionized the PF position, not Dirk. Power Forwards used to be nothing more than blunt instruments, setting screens and getting rebounds, and putting an elbow in somebodys face. Nothing more. They were the fullbacks of the NBA. People forget that Malone had an excellent medium range fallaway to complement his inside game. It was very uncommon for a PF to be a scoring threat,much less the focal point of an entire offense. I think KG and Dirk represent the continuing evolution of the PF position, very similarly to the way Shockey, Gonzales,Witten,Vernon Davis,Gates, and Ben Olson are continuing the increasing versatility and resourcefulness of the TE position in the NBA.

Stranger
10-11-2007, 11:08 PM
If I were allowed a bit of leeway with the positions, I would probably go with:

C: Wilt Chamberlain
F: Bill Russell
F: Larry Bird
G: Michael Jordan
G: Magic Johnson

Bench: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Elgin Baylor, Isiah Thomas

alby
10-11-2007, 11:51 PM
I don't want to be a homer or anything but I think the world severely underrates Dirk.

Wilt was a one man team until he joined the Lakers and had Baylor and West.
Bill Russell's teams were so ahead of the rest of the NBA, it wasn't a fair fight.
Bird had three other hall of famers (Parish, Mchale, Walton) on his team.
Magic had two other hall of famers (Worthy, Kareem) on his team.
Jordan is in a class by himself.

Dirk has one all star in Josh Howard. They are solid players, but comeon.

This is why I was so adament on trading for a legitimate star this offseason, Dallas is throwing away one of the best talents this league has ever seen.

kingmalaki
10-12-2007, 01:31 AM
Sorry guys, but Dirk is not an all-time NBA great...yet (I personally don't think he will ever get there but his career is still young and he has time). He just hasn't accomplished enough. Again, we are comparing him to the best of the best. To say he doesn't belong on an all-time list isn't saying he is a scrub. Hell, 75% of the posters in this thread don't even have Hakeem on their list. Shaq is not on every list. Folks are actually debating whether Kareem belongs. Stockton...Moses Malone...Baylor...Elvin Hayes...Barkley, etc....Dirk hasn't shown that he is better than any of those guys, even at the same stages in their careers.

dalmations202
10-12-2007, 07:50 AM
Do you notice that when someone asks an opinion question, everyone that posts (myself included) has their own opinion, and thinks they are right, and lets the world know it.

Just cracks me up. :)

Five-ofan
10-12-2007, 08:24 AM
Sorry guys, but Dirk is not an all-time NBA great...yet (I personally don't think he will ever get there but his career is still young and he has time). He just hasn't accomplished enough. Again, we are comparing him to the best of the best. To say he doesn't belong on an all-time list isn't saying he is a scrub. Hell, 75% of the posters in this thread don't even have Hakeem on their list. Shaq is not on every list. Folks are actually debating whether Kareem belongs. Stockton...Moses Malone...Baylor...Elvin Hayes...Barkley, etc....Dirk hasn't shown that he is better than any of those guys, even at the same stages in their careers.
dirks all time great resume will hinge on one thing. the number of titles he wins. he wins 3 or more and hes arguably top 10 all time. he doesnt win any hes top 40 or so. he wins 1-2 hes somewhere between that.

jeffajufo
10-12-2007, 10:09 AM
I don't want to be a homer or anything but I think the world severely underrates Dirk.

Wilt was a one man team until he joined the Lakers and had Baylor and West.
Bill Russell's teams were so ahead of the rest of the NBA, it wasn't a fair fight.
Bird had three other hall of famers (Parish, Mchale, Walton) on his team.
Magic had two other hall of famers (Worthy, Kareem) on his team.
Jordan is in a class by himself.

Dirk has one all star in Josh Howard. They are solid players, but comeon.

This is why I was so adament on trading for a legitimate star this offseason, Dallas is throwing away one of the best talents this league has ever seen.

1. What point are you trying to make by listing the number of hall of famers that Russell,Bird and Magic played with? Are you listing them just for the sake of naming them,or are you penalizing them for having great teammates?
2. That Lakers team with Wilt,Baylor and West didn't win a title until AFTER Elgin Baylor retired.
3. The fact that Russell,Bird, and Magic played with great players reinforces the greatness of those Laker and Celtic teams. It doesn't in any way diminish their individual brilliance compared with the players today or yesterday. If anything,their ability to play and win with other great players is a testament to their willingness to play great team basketball.
4."Jordan is in a class by himself". And the sky is blue, the grass is green, there are 24 hours in a day......everybody knows this for Christ's sake! Nobody in this thread, or in any thread before has argued or would argue against Michael Jordan belonging on this list,so stop making that comment as if your trying to give us all some insight to something that wasn't made abundantly clear during the guy's 15 year NBA career! Good God........
5. Dallas is throwing away one of the best talents in the league? How? By surrounding him with the deepest and most versatile supporting cast in the NBA? By consistently making great draft picks,trades and free agent signings that improve our team without creating a salary cap catastrophe? By winning at least 50 games a year for the past seven years, getting to the conference finals twice and to the finals once? By what standard can you say that Dallas is throwing away Dirk's talent?!?!

alby
10-12-2007, 12:27 PM
1. calm down.
2. I was making a point about how the "top 5" of all time have had amazing talent around them compared to some players who may be better that were not blessed with hall of fame teams.
3. I believe Dirk, who is one of the best talents basketball has ever seen, is being wasted away by the team dallas is giving him--especially when it was made known we could have teamed him up with a second superstar.

can I not have my own mind or do I have to agree with you on everything, calm down. lol

12 Tone Melodies
10-12-2007, 12:52 PM
As for the MVP being a popularity contest, throughout most of Russell and Wilt's careers, the MVP was voted on by the players, not fans or media--which helps explain why Russell won it the year Wilt averaged 50 points/game
And I'm not sure what year the league changed the procedure

For me the big problem in comparing the players of the 50's & 60's with the modern era is that the old guys were paid so little that all but handful of players had to at least have real jobs in the off season, and quite a few had jobs during the season to put food on the table
Now if Oscar Robertson John Havlicek had had the luxury of year around training, how effective would they have been? If Amare Stoudimire or Josh Howard had to have a job during the season, how effective would they be?

Having said that, my favorites are {and yes, I'm taking a bit of liberty with some positions}:

PG--Bob Cousey, Tiny Archibald
SG--Oscar Robertson, Jerry West
C--Bill Russell, Hakeem
SF--Elgin Baylor, Larry Bird
PF--Tim Duncan,Moses Malone

Bench--David Robinson,John Havlicek
Coach--Red Auerbach--who BTW never had a single assistant coach or scout (other than himself) for all those titles

Five-ofan
10-12-2007, 05:08 PM
1. What point are you trying to make by listing the number of hall of famers that Russell,Bird and Magic played with? Are you listing them just for the sake of naming them,or are you penalizing them for having great teammates?
2. That Lakers team with Wilt,Baylor and West didn't win a title until AFTER Elgin Baylor retired.
3. The fact that Russell,Bird, and Magic played with great players reinforces the greatness of those Laker and Celtic teams. It doesn't in any way diminish their individual brilliance compared with the players today or yesterday. If anything,their ability to play and win with other great players is a testament to their willingness to play great team basketball.
4."Jordan is in a class by himself". And the sky is blue, the grass is green, there are 24 hours in a day......everybody knows this for Christ's sake! Nobody in this thread, or in any thread before has argued or would argue against Michael Jordan belonging on this list,so stop making that comment as if your trying to give us all some insight to something that wasn't made abundantly clear during the guy's 15 year NBA career! Good God........
5. Dallas is throwing away one of the best talents in the league? How? By surrounding him with the deepest and most versatile supporting cast in the NBA? By consistently making great draft picks,trades and free agent signings that improve our team without creating a salary cap catastrophe? By winning at least 50 games a year for the past seven years, getting to the conference finals twice and to the finals once? By what standard can you say that Dallas is throwing away Dirk's talent?!?!
outside of dirk, the mavs are nowhere near the most talented team in the nba. If you take all of the best players on each team in the nba off their respective teams, the mavs would be lucky to make the playoffs.

nowhereman
10-12-2007, 05:23 PM
outside of dirk, the mavs are nowhere near the most talented team in the nba. If you take all of the best players on each team in the nba off their respective teams, the mavs would be lucky to make the playoffs.

i'm not buying it.

You don't think this team sans dirk would be head and shoulders above...

seattle w/o durant
portland w/o roy
memphis w/o gasol
clippers w/o brand
lakers w/o kobe
sacramento w/o.. martin? artest?
golden state w/o baron
new orleans w/o paul
denver w/o melo
minnesota w/o jefferson

please. this would be a borderline playoff team w/o dirk even if the rest of the nba was at full strength.

Five-ofan
10-12-2007, 05:28 PM
i'm not buying it.

You don't think this team sans dirk would be head and shoulders above...

seattle w/o durant
portland w/o roy
memphis w/o gasol
clippers w/o brand
lakers w/o kobe
sacramento w/o.. martin? artest?
golden state w/o baron
new orleans w/o paul
denver w/o melo
minnesota w/o jefferson

please. this would be a borderline playoff team w/o dirk even if the rest of the nba was at full strength.
seattle yes
portland yes(without oden and roy but give them back roy and its damn close)
memphis yes
clippers-no
lakers-no the mavs have a slight edge but its damn close
sacramento-no
golden state-HELL NO, its not close the other way.
new orleans-not sure
denver-no
minny-yes

People just overrestimate how good the mavs players are. Honestly if you take dirk off this roster what makes them better than say the hawks?

Jack.Kerr
10-12-2007, 05:30 PM
C-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF-Tim Duncan
SF-Larry Bird
SG-Michael Jordan
PG-Magic Johnson

Sixth Man--Julius Erving

Karl Malone didn't so much revolutionize the PF position as he did bring a different mix of skills. Elvin Hayes was the PF of the 70s, McHale the PF of the 80s, Malone the PF of the 90s, Duncan the PF of the New Milennium. Malone had a very good inside game offensively, superior athleticism, and had a little more range on his shot than Hayes or McHale had. He was a solid rebounder, and a better defender on the floor than a lot of people realize, but he was not as good a defender, however, as either Hayes or McHale. With Malone you gained some, you lost some.

Dirk is pretty much my favorite player in the league today, but he doesn't belong on any All-Time lists--certainly not yet, and more than likely not ever. He's kind of like a negative image of Charles Barkley (who doesn't belong on any all-time lists either)--Dirk, the oversized player with the outside game, Barkley, the undersized player with the inside game. Both great players, neither revolutionary players, neither with a rightful place on any all-time lists. At least not yet.

Five-ofan
10-12-2007, 05:31 PM
phoenix
sa
utah
and houston are all clearly better by a very large margin without their best player.

denver
and golden state are pretty clearly better.

that would put the mavs in a battle with the LA teams, sacto and the blazers if they got to keep roy for the 7th and 8th playoff spots.

Its not even that i think dirk is so much better than all those other players that are the best players on their teams, though i do think hes a no questions asked top 5 player. But the mavs base SOOOOOOOOOOOO much of their offense around him and his skill set that is truly irreplaceable.

kingmalaki
10-12-2007, 06:50 PM
dirks all time great resume will hinge on one thing. the number of titles he wins. he wins 3 or more and hes arguably top 10 all time. he doesnt win any hes top 40 or so. he wins 1-2 hes somewhere between that.

So I guess your all-time team only consists of dudes who won titles? Stockton is in the GOAT convo for the PG spot, and he has no rings. Robertson is in the GOAT convo period, and he only has one. Malone is in the GOAT convo for the PF spot, and he has no rings (same with Barkley). DR J is in the GOAT convo for the SF spot and he only has one ring (same with Moses Malone). Baylor has no rings. Wilt is in the GOAT convo and he only has two. Etc....

kingmalaki
10-12-2007, 07:00 PM
phoenix
sa
utah
and houston are all clearly better by a very large margin without their best player.

denver
and golden state are pretty clearly better.

that would put the mavs in a battle with the LA teams, sacto and the blazers if they got to keep roy for the 7th and 8th playoff spots.

Its not even that i think dirk is so much better than all those other players that are the best players on their teams, though i do think hes a no questions asked top 5 player. But the mavs base SOOOOOOOOOOOO much of their offense around him and his skill set that is truly irreplaceable.

Phoenix yep for sure.

SA I'm not so sure about. I would take Howard over Manu or TP (pick one). The remaining one (Manu or TP) is better than your 3rd best player, but your team has more talent overall. There is no Stack, Harris, etc on the Spurs (assuming you say Jet is your 3rd best).

Utah's 2nd best player (either Deron or Boozer, pick one) is better than Howard, but you have them beat talent wise 3-12. The same goes for the Nuggets.

Houston this year due to the additions, but not last year.

No one on GS outside of B.Diddy is better than Howard, and I still argue that you are just as good 3-12.

Silk Smoov
10-12-2007, 07:15 PM
I got bored a few weeks ago and started thinking "If I were to make an all time NBA team, who would be on it? Who would start, and who would come off the bench?"



C Bill Russell
F Tim Duncan
F Larry Bird
G Magic Johnson
G Michael Jordan

After debating it with my buddy Taimur, I realized I had to reconsider the starting center position, and expand the team to 12 players. Mostly by putting who I thought were the greatest of all time at ther positions, this is what I came up with.

C Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
F Tim Duncan
F Larry Bird
G Magic Johnson
G Michael Jordan

Bill Russell,Karl Malone,Charles Barkley,Jerry West,Oscar Robertson,John Stockton,Shaquille O'Neal


I don't know if 12 is enough for a team like this,maybe 15. But that's what I did. I'd love to see other people's lists

Your first list is a player off from the perfect NBA starting five.

G--Magic
G--MJ
F--Bird
F--Russell
C--Wilt Chamberlin

That is the perfect line-up..HANDS DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nowhereman
10-12-2007, 07:46 PM
okay, the argument is what happens when we take Dirk off the team. Lets look at the stats for what happens when Dirk goes to the bench vs. when other franchise players leave the court, from the 06-07 season. Stats are on a per-100 possession basis:

Dirk:
On Court: +12.1
Off Court: -0.9
Differential: 13 points per 100 possessions

Tim Duncan:
On Court: +13.7
Off Court: -0.4
Differential: 14.1 points per 100 possessions

Steve Nash:
On Court: +11.2
Off Court: -0.4
Differential: 11.6 pts per 100 possessions
In Nash's case, he has a very offensively potent backup, so there is less of a dropoff than one might expect otherwise.

Kobe Bryant:
On Court: +0.7
Off Court: -5.2
Differential: 5.9

Baron Davis:
On Court: +4.3
Off Court: -7.1
Differential: 11.4

There is a comparable drop off in team production when Duncan, Nash, Davis go to the bench as there is when Dirk goes to the bench. It's not like the mavs would play isolation basketball and stick Croshere on the high-post. I will take our team's 10th player over any other team's 10th player. Just because Dirk wouldn't be playing doesn't mean the mavs would play the same style. I by no means think these mavs are out of the playoffs without Dirk. I think they're at least a 45+ wins team without him.

That said, it's harder to go from 45 wins to 65 wins than it is to go from 25 to 45. That's what makes Dirk so valuable.

I don't understand this infatuation with the myth of wilt and russell. don't believe everything you read. look at what we have to evaluate objectively. there is no way we can exclude kareem from our starting 5, especially with russell and chamberlain BOTH there. that's bogus.

Captain Disaster
10-12-2007, 08:22 PM
Pete Maravich has to be on the list.

alby
10-12-2007, 08:36 PM
pistol pete is a legend

jeffajufo
10-12-2007, 09:52 PM
Dallas' supporting cast is weak??? I dunno about that....no check that. I do know about that, its complete nonsense. How do you win 127 regular season games, a regular season division title, regular season conference title and an NBA finals appearance in two years with a weak supporting cast? Especially in the toughest division in the most brutal conference in recent years? It's an incredibly ignorant and irresponsible thing to say. Have you guys seen Phoenix play? They rarely go more than 7 deep(thats 5 starters and 2 bench) whereas teams such as San Antonio and Dallas easily go 10 deep without any significant drop off in their performance. We have two of arguably the best interior defensive centers in the NBA today, an NBA all star swingman, one of the best backcourts in the league(honestly, how many teams can boast a SG and PG combo as well rounded and balanced as Dallas) and a guy coming off the bench who has averaged nearly 30 ppg in his career. If you don't believe that think about this:

Dallas averaged 100 ppg last year. we had 5 guys average double figures in points per game. in terms of points per 48 minutes, everybody except diop averaged double figures. doesn't sound like a team thats struggling with its bench to me


alby, I'm not saying that you can't have a differing opinion, and I don't hate you. I would just prefer if you used more factual evidence for your arguments instead of making abstract, blakent statemets like, " pistol pete is a legend". Paul Bunyan is a legend. Johnny Appleseed is a legend. It's how their "legend" applies to NBA history in terms of individual/team accomplishments that I am trying to stress, so quotes from nba.com or fluffy quotes don't really paint a picture for me.

alby
10-13-2007, 12:14 AM
I am not allowed to post "Pistol Pete is a legend"?

DOMINATOR
10-13-2007, 12:55 AM
pistol pete is a legend... best college player ever. dunno if he is in the elite of the NBA though.

alby
10-13-2007, 01:18 AM
well how was he in terms of his individual/team accomplishments, you can't just call him the best college player ever out of nowhere. and please don't quote from basketball sources such as nba.com

Hitman
10-13-2007, 09:19 AM
Pistol Pete and Dirk do not deserve a spot on the all time NBA team.

alby
10-13-2007, 09:35 AM
give us more factual evidence before you say such statements

Silk Smoov
10-13-2007, 10:12 AM
give us more factual evidence before you say such statements

Come on, you are letting that newbie get to you. We all know that was a crazy statement from that poster, so just let it go. We all know that Pistol Pete is a legend. Just post some logic back to the newbie who slammed your post. I will back you up on it ;)

jeffajufo
10-14-2007, 10:24 PM
Come on, you are letting that newbie get to you. We all know that was a crazy statement from that poster, so just let it go. We all know that Pistol Pete is a legend. Just post some logic back to the newbie who slammed your post. I will back you up on it ;)


newbie huh? That's the worst thing you can say about me? I guess it could be worse,but I don't need to have 5,000+ posts on this website to be able to question somebodys reason for saying something. I never said alby, or anybody couldn't say whatever they wanted. Everybody can say whatever they want,but if you do then other people have the same freedom to scrutinize and question your statements, especially if your just pulling them out of the air. You can't make a bunch of questionable comments and then turn around and get upset at somebody when they call you on it. I was objecting to using comments on nba.com like "This person was a master at doing whatever, blah blah blah" for the purpose of this thread. I wanted to see real arguments. Of course the people who are on this list are going to be legends, its an ALL TIME list! What was really important was what those guys did that elevated themselves past the other legends. Example: What,in terms of team accomplishments and individual career achievement, did Pete Maravich do to deserve a spot on your list besides guys like Stockton, Magic, Cousy,Havlicheck etc? Saying stuff like "so and so is a legend" doesn't add to the argument. Its such an abstract and vague sentiment that its impossible to place any meaningful value to it.

Basically, if your going to make a comment like "pippen is the most overrated star ever" or "the mavericks are wasting dirk" then back it up with evidence. You can't just put gasoline on a grease fire without expecting some kind of reaction.

alby
10-14-2007, 10:29 PM
the sky is blue

sorry I have no scientific evidence.

mcsluggo
10-15-2007, 09:20 AM
1. calm down.
2. I was making a point about how the "top 5" of all time have had amazing talent around them compared to some players who may be better that were not blessed with hall of fame teams.
3. I believe Dirk, who is one of the best talents basketball has ever seen, is being wasted away by the team dallas is giving him--especially when it was made known we could have teamed him up with a second superstar.

can I not have my own mind or do I have to agree with you on everything, calm down. lol

I agree COMPLETELY with your point (about the surrounding talent).

I get very sick of people listing Russell's rings as if it is the one, and only, and final discussion point in an argument. Balderdash. If you dropped Russell off those teams, suddenly, what? The Celtics only win 9 or 10 titles? Ouch, sucks to be them.

If you dropped Wilt off of most of his teams, you would have what? JV teams?

mcsluggo
10-15-2007, 09:22 AM
can you even IMAGINE what the celtics would've been like if you replaced russell with wilt....?

Anyone think Russell would've won double digit rings replacing Wilt on his teams?

Knickfan
10-15-2007, 10:07 AM
I read most of the quotes and I'm glad to see some people feel Dirk shouldn't be on this list and it's funny that he was even mentioned. If you're talking about all-time greats and Dirk it should STOP at all -time great Dallas Maverick and I'm not quite sure I'm ready to say he's the best all time Dallas Maverick. I know his numbers are probably head and shoulders above others (I haven't compared so I don't know) but I have a hard time putting him above my MAIN man Rolando Blackman.

Personally you all can make whatever argument you want, that he's the most difficult to guard,etc. etc. but the reality is, he's NOT an all-time great. Atleast not yet..

Subliminal012
10-15-2007, 09:10 PM
I'm surprised to not see shaq on more lists. You have to take the era into context. I saw a post about how wilt had more rebounds than shaq. Of course, look at his competition. Shaq in his prime was an unmatchable presence.

sike
10-15-2007, 10:00 PM
G--Magic
G--MJ
F--Bird
F--Russell
C--Wilt Chamberlin

That is the perfect line-up..HANDS DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree...its much harder to come up with the second or third best teams..

Five-ofan
10-16-2007, 05:37 PM
i still think if we were actually going to play the game on the court, my team of
pg-magic
sg-jordan
sf-pippen
pf-hakeem
c-wilt

beats anyone elses lineup. I agree that bird is the best sf ever but on a team that already has go to scorers, pippens D and not needing the ball put him ahead imo.

alby
10-16-2007, 09:52 PM
why don't you just have bowen out there then?

Five-ofan
10-16-2007, 11:03 PM
why don't you just have bowen out there then?
pippen was a MUCH better defender than bowen, and a much better scorer and facilator. The bulls of the 90s are the greatest defensive teams of all times and that is largely due to the fact that pippen is definitely the best wing defender and arguably the best overall defender of all time. Not to mention that when jordan felt like turning it up he was a beast defensively too though he did take large periods of the game off. The length and athleticism from 2-5 would be so unbelievable i dont think anyone could do anything against them. I thought about playin gp or frazier at the point but decided id rather have the distributor and the guys behind him would make up for magics defensive short comings.

Knickfan
10-17-2007, 10:01 AM
pippen was a MUCH better defender than bowen, and a much better scorer and facilator. The bulls of the 90s are the greatest defensive teams of all times and that is largely due to the fact that pippen is definitely the best wing defender and arguably the best overall defender of all time. Not to mention that when jordan felt like turning it up he was a beast defensively too though he did take large periods of the game off. The length and athleticism from 2-5 would be so unbelievable i dont think anyone could do anything against them. I thought about playin gp or frazier at the point but decided id rather have the distributor and the guys behind him would make up for magics defensive short comings.

I MAY be one of the biggest Pippen fans alive and that is no joke. I say that because there really aren't many Pippen worshipers. With that being said, I don't know if I would even put Pippen on an all-time time. Is he arguably one of the best defenders?? Yes! There are arguments to be made why he is great but I just couldn't see putting him before Bird. Yes he was EASILY a better defender and possibly more versatile than Bird BUT Bird simply made his team better by being on the court because you had to respect him so much and if you DIDN'T he would KILL YOU!

I'm not going to diss you for putting Pippen on there, as a matter of fact, I'm happy to see someone recognizes how special of a player he actually was.

Five-ofan
10-17-2007, 03:21 PM
I MAY be one of the biggest Pippen fans alive and that is no joke. I say that because there really aren't many Pippen worshipers. With that being said, I don't know if I would even put Pippen on an all-time time. Is he arguably one of the best defenders?? Yes! There are arguments to be made why he is great but I just couldn't see putting him before Bird. Yes he was EASILY a better defender and possibly more versatile than Bird BUT Bird simply made his team better by being on the court because you had to respect him so much and if you DIDN'T he would KILL YOU!

I'm not going to diss you for putting Pippen on there, as a matter of fact, I'm happy to see someone recognizes how special of a player he actually was.
bird was without question a better basketball player. I loved pippen(he was always my favorite player when i was little) but theres no doubt bird is better and the best sf of all time. The thing is, when you already have jordan and wilt to do the scoring(and dominate the ball) and magic to do the distributing(and take up the rest of the ball) you might as well go with what would be by far the greatest defensive forward pairing of all time in pippen and hakeem. its the law of diminishing returns. The 4th and 5th starter being all time great scorers isnt really necesarry.

spreedom
10-17-2007, 06:24 PM
6. Russell was elected to the all-nba second team 7 times, and the first team 3 times. This means that in his generation, 70% of the time he was an all-league player, there was a consensus player that was better at his position.


That was also in an age where the players voted for the MVP, and I believe at least once, Bill made the All-NBA second team...... and won the MVP trophy.


To me, All-NBA teams are completely meaningless, especially since they don't just pick the top 5 vote-getters... since that was the case last year, Amare Stoudemire made the All-NBA team, and guys like LeBron James and Kevin Garnett (who are both clearly better players, and got more votes) didn't make that team.


That tells you the value of the All-NBA teams.

Five-ofan
10-18-2007, 04:14 PM
That was also in an age where the players voted for the MVP, and I believe at least once, Bill made the All-NBA second team...... and won the MVP trophy.


To me, All-NBA teams are completely meaningless, especially since they don't just pick the top 5 vote-getters... since that was the case last year, Amare Stoudemire made the All-NBA team, and guys like LeBron James and Kevin Garnett (who are both clearly better players, and got more votes) didn't make that team.


That tells you the value of the All-NBA teams.
and he won the mvp the year wilt averaged 48.5 mpg, 50.4 ppg and 25.7 rpg. the reason he wasnt all nba first team that year is because he was CLEARLY not the best center in the nba. that years voting was a mistake because he had no damn business winning the mvp not because he should have been on the all nba first team.

and the other thing of note about bill russell that no one has mentioned. he was a career 44% shooter. Thats flat out awful for a center. I know it was a different era but wilt played in the same era and shot 54% for his career with ALOT more defensive attention. Theres really absolutely no question who the better player was.