PDA

View Full Version : Shaq may be going to Suns


Pages : [1] 2

Simon2
02-05-2008, 06:07 PM
The Miami Heat have told Shaquille O'Neal and his representation that they should be prepared for him to be traded in the near future.

Barry Jackson of the Miami Herald reports that Phoenix has discussed sending forward Shawn Marion and point guard Marcus Banks to the Heat in return for O'Neal. Shaq's representatives said they have been made aware that discussions with Phoenix are serious and ongoing, but that a deal was not definite. Marion can opt out of his contract worth $17.1 million at the end of the season. And if he opts out, the Heat would then have substantial salary cap space this offseason, when potential free agents include Gilbert Arenas, Baron Davis, Elton Brand, Marion, Antawn Jamison, Ron Artest and Corey Maggette. Stay tuned. Feb. 5 - 6:30 pm et

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/HeadLines.aspx?sport=NBA&hl=92980

jthig32
02-05-2008, 06:08 PM
I would welcome this trade with open arms. This would be a horrible idea for Phoenix.

Dortmund
02-05-2008, 06:16 PM
Yeah.. would make more sense to come to dallas

MavsFanFinley
02-05-2008, 06:21 PM
Why is it horrible? It gives the Suns another legit big man even though Shaq is on his last legs. Marcus Banks isn't even a factor.

Dirkadirkastan
02-05-2008, 06:23 PM
Since when did major sports rumors get started by third graders?

Dirkgreatness
02-05-2008, 06:29 PM
lol really? DO IT PHOENIX!

rabbitproof
02-05-2008, 06:29 PM
Yeah right. Especially with Phoenix.

They....... don't like to spend money.

Windmill360
02-05-2008, 06:37 PM
i hope it happens.

Five-ofan
02-05-2008, 06:46 PM
Why is it horrible? It gives the Suns another legit big man even though Shaq is on his last legs. Marcus Banks isn't even a factor.
because marion is their second most important player and hes about 900 times better than shaq at the moment. not to mention hes a much better fit for their system.

Windmill360
02-05-2008, 06:48 PM
marion wont live without nash.

thereaper
02-05-2008, 06:48 PM
http://imatt.us/mt/archives/orly.JPG

twistaeffect2004
02-05-2008, 06:52 PM
I'd love to see Shaq try and keep up in their tempo.

Shoot, if the Heat can get Marion for Shaq... do it.

WayOutWest
02-05-2008, 06:56 PM
The Suns better do something because the Championship window for the Nash led Suns is almost closed. Right now, despite their record, they are looking like the third or fourth best playoff team in the West.

Underdog
02-05-2008, 07:07 PM
Shaq in the run 'n' gun???

When did Phoenix become Memphis? Maybe they could give us Marion for Damp & a case of Lonestar?

jthig32
02-05-2008, 07:09 PM
Why is it horrible? It gives the Suns another legit big man even though Shaq is on his last legs. Marcus Banks isn't even a factor.

They'd have to change their entire offensive system.

Five-ofan
02-05-2008, 07:10 PM
marion wont live without nash.
uh marions numbers with and without nash are virtually identical with the exception of fg% for his career. hes the best cutter and one of the best finishers in the nba. this belief that he is somehow entirely a creation of nash that floats around is honestly one of the stupidest notions in the nba.

MavsFanFinley
02-05-2008, 07:18 PM
They'd have to change their entire offensive system.

I don't think it would be that drastic. They've mastered the run and gun system so it would crazy to see them have a legit post up player. I think those guys could adjust to that and run when they need to.

Tokey41
02-05-2008, 07:33 PM
Shaq would die somewhere between the second quarter and halftime of his first game as a Sun.

It doesn't make sense on any level for Phoenix. Like literally ANY level, their best chance to compete for a title is with Marion not Shaq, and if they wanted to go into rebuild mode they would be better off dumping Marions expiring contract after this season. How does Shaq manage to play any significant role in their system? He could be a huge tempo change off the bench maybe... but still, giving up Marion for him would be way too much for Phoenix.

TomThaMavsFan
02-05-2008, 07:48 PM
anything that can slow down the suns and get shawn marion off their team is big thumbs up, come on phoenix and miami get er done

FINtastic
02-05-2008, 08:03 PM
Gosh this would be such a great trade. Maybe the Spurs will think about trading Tim Duncan for a more athletic player or New Orleans will trade Chris Paul for someone with more experience. A man can dream, can't he?

Five-ofan
02-05-2008, 08:05 PM
I don't think it would be that drastic. They've mastered the run and gun system so it would crazy to see them have a legit post up player. I think those guys could adjust to that and run when they need to.
the reason they can run so well is marion. hes every bit as vital to that team as nash is.

skylive321
02-05-2008, 08:07 PM
two points:
1. Phoenix runs....
2. A lottttttt..
The fact is that nash likes to run a get the dish to his center. I don't see shaq running at nash' pace. And worst for them, is that they lose the only guy that fills up all stat sheets on their team. Go ahead phoenix, Trade the matrix... DO it.. Do it..

FINtastic
02-05-2008, 08:10 PM
You think team defense is a problem for the Suns now? Watch what happens if you remove Marion. Yeah Shaq gives them a more traditional approach, but he's an average defender at best at this point in his career, and he would be surrounded by a bunch of other average to lousy defenders.

Btw, would Dan Tony even know how to a coach a traditional offense? Oh and Shaq can't play the minutes that Marion is giving you on a nightly basis. Who is going to fill those minutes? So many things wrong with this trade, I can't begin to list them all.

chumdawg
02-05-2008, 08:45 PM
Phoenix also runs the pick-and-roll a lot, and that Nash-Stoudemire connection is every bit as important to their success as their run-and-gun is.

The "common knowledge" on Phoenix is that they can't win with their style. How could it possibly be a bad move, then, for them to move toward a more traditional approach?

Underdog
02-05-2008, 08:47 PM
Phoenix also runs the pick-and-roll a lot, and that Nash-Stoudemire connection is every bit as important to their success as their run-and-gun is.

The "common knowledge" on Phoenix is that they can't win with their style. How could it possibly be a bad move, then, for them to move toward a more traditional approach?


Do they have the coach/team (even with Shaq) to play a more traditional style?

chumdawg
02-05-2008, 08:48 PM
Do they have the team/coach (even with Shaq) to play a more traditional style?Sure, I'd say. Why not?

FINtastic
02-05-2008, 08:49 PM
Hey, I don't think it would be a bad deal if they didn't have to give up one of their top 3 to do it. And the problem with their approach isn't the offensive end. It's the defensive end. Swapping Marion for Shaq doesn't do anything for them in that regard. It arguably makes them worse. I don't really see either where it makes them better on the offensive end. Having Shaq down there would crowd out Amare from where he does his best work.

chumdawg
02-05-2008, 08:53 PM
Well, I don't know that we can say for sure whether it would make them better or worse, but it would sure make them more interesting!

I think that as far as they are concerned, there are issues with Marion above and beyond just what you get on the floor. So if they really do want to make this deal, it's probably a larger picture they are looking at.

FINtastic
02-05-2008, 08:54 PM
Phoenix also runs the pick-and-roll a lot, and that Nash-Stoudemire connection is every bit as important to their success as their run-and-gun is.

The "common knowledge" on Phoenix is that they can't win with their style. How could it possibly be a bad move, then, for them to move toward a more traditional approach?

Sure the Nash-Stoudemire connection is great on the pick and roll. But who says it would be as great with Shaq. Honestly, Nash and Stoudemire on the pick-and-roll are about as good of a combination as you can get. Why would you then waste time on a Shaq pick-and-roll? The opportunity cost is that you give up the Stoudemire-Nash pick-and-roll. That's a net negative if you ask me.

And yeah, there is the chance that Stoudemire is on the bench or in foul trouble, but that's what you have Marion for. If you remember, when the Suns knocked us out in Game 6 a few years ago, Amare fouled out. With the way the series had gone, you would have thought that was enough for the Mavs to take control of the game. But the Suns plugged Marion into that pick-and-roll and never missed a beat.

Underdog
02-05-2008, 08:55 PM
Sure, I'd say. Why not?


For some reason I just can't picture Nash slowing down enough for Shaq to catch up...

(and let's face it - if ever there was a master of the flashy-balls-to-the-wall-run-and-gun offense that D'Antoni runs, it's Steve Nash... I can't imagine him being comfortable at a slower pace...)

FINtastic
02-05-2008, 08:57 PM
Well, I don't know that we can say for sure whether it would make them better or worse, but it would sure make them more interesting!

I think that as far as they are concerned, there are issues with Marion above and beyond just what you get on the floor. So if they really do want to make this deal, it's probably a larger picture they are looking at.

That's really the only reason I can figure out why they would make this trade. This would be a signal that they've absolutely had it with Marion's attitude. But it would also be delicious because it makes them worse on the court imo. It also doesn't do anything to help them in the future unless they are sure Marion is going to opt out and are trying to get something now instead of being stuck with nothing this offseason.

MFFL
02-05-2008, 09:01 PM
Shaq doesn't need to run - he'll be the primary option if the fast break doesn't get a shot off.

I don't remember Kurt Thomas running that much and he was pretty effective

dude1394
02-05-2008, 09:05 PM
That's one big load of a trade idea to me. Makes absolutely no sense. So I guess shaq would be center (for about 10 mpg) and amare would be for the rest of the time and powerforward.

I'd like to see that one to be honest.

That still looks like a good deal for the mavs. It beats playing our 6'8 center out there.

FINtastic
02-05-2008, 09:11 PM
Shaq doesn't need to run - he'll be the primary option if the fast break doesn't get a shot off.

I don't remember Kurt Thomas running that much and he was pretty effective

Kurt Thomas was effective on the offensive end? He was alright but nothing spectactular. Heck, the guy only averaged 5 points his last year in Phoenix. Thomas was there mainly for his defense and rebounding. At this point in his career, Shaq probably can't provide what Thomas did on those fronts. So Shaq's main purpose becomes on the offensive end. I'm sure he'll still produce on that end but is it enough to even replace what you lost from Marion? I doubt it.

Janett_Reno
02-05-2008, 09:16 PM
Marion is a mvp to Phx comparred to Shaq at Phx. No way Shaq can keep up with that running style and are they now going to walk it up and play half court? I knew it was talks of Shaq being traded and if i was Miami, i would want Marion instead of Shaq as he is on his last legs. They need a center but one that can run up and down. I read this but it is also hard to believe unless Phx is going to be a half court team.

Shaq could help a team that plays a slower pace. It is a risk because how much does he have left?

Underdog
02-05-2008, 09:17 PM
I thought about it for a few minutes & discovered how this trade could make any sense:

The Suns keep beating the Lakers in the playoffs season after season in a shooting match... The Lakers acquire Gasol to beat the Suns at their own game... The Suns knee-jerk and go after Shaq to keep Gasol on the perimeter (only half-effective against his shot) & dominate him on the other end of the court...

It would be funny if neither team played each other in the playoffs and the Suns lost against the run-and-gun Warriors while the Lakers folded against the grind-it-out Spurs...

(actually, that scenario makes me glad we went after Bass rather than giving up key players to beat the Warriors in the off-chance that we'd meet them again in the playoffs...)

DarenG
02-05-2008, 09:18 PM
If they get Shaq it will be to put a big body in the middle of the paint and to get some rebounds. They don't need Shaq's offense at all. Plus it would allow Amare to go back to his natural position. IMO Amare would be even a bigger beast playing PF. However, Shaq has nothing left IMO. The guy is washed up.

They are going to give up an All-Star Forward for a washed up player? Please do this deal Suns. It would blow up the team and make it one less team to compete with in the West.

chumdawg
02-05-2008, 09:23 PM
I thought about it for a few minutes & discovered how this trade could make any sense:

The Suns keep beating the Lakers in the playoffs season after season with a shooting match... The Lakers acquire Gasol to beat the Suns at their own game... The Suns knee-jerk and go after Shaq to keep Gasol on the perimeter (only half-effective against his shot) & dominate him on the other end of the court...

It would be funny if neither team played each other in the playoffs and the Suns lost against the run-and-gun Warriors while the Lakers folded against the grind-it-out Spurs...

(actually, that scenario makes me glad we went after Bass rather than giving up key players to beat the Warriors in the off-chance that we'd meet them again in the playoffs...)Just remember that Shaq tore it up in the West when he was there. The West just couldn't beat him. And then when he went to the East, he bagged a title then, too.

If he's got nothing left, that changes things. But if he's anything like his former self...well, I'm just saying that it doesn't a matter a whole lot who the opponent is.

Which, come to think of it, is a reason I'd very much like to see him wear a Mavs uniform.

Underdog
02-05-2008, 09:28 PM
Just remember that Shaq tore it up in the West when he was there. The West just couldn't beat him. And then when he went to the East, he bagged a title then, too.

If he's got nothing left, that changes things. But if he's anything like his former self...well, I'm just saying that it doesn't a matter a whole lot who the opponent is.

Which, come to think of it, is a reason I'd very much like to see him wear a Mavs uniform.


I think he'd be a much better fit on the Mavs than the Suns, no doubt (I thought that 3 years ago too & look what happened...)

Hell, Shaq doesn't even need to play at the level he used to if we don't have to give much up to acquire him... Too bad we can't top a Marion-for-Shaq deal (but then again, I read Marion-for-Gasol was also on the table at one time, so anything is possible!)

Getting Shaq also makes the idea of sending Diop as part of a package for Kidd a lot more realistic...

thereaper
02-05-2008, 09:29 PM
Which, come to think of it, is a reason I'd very much like to see him wear a Mavs uniform.

So would you do a deal for Shaq if it cost you Josh?

jthig32
02-05-2008, 09:51 PM
Phoenix also runs the pick-and-roll a lot, and that Nash-Stoudemire connection is every bit as important to their success as their run-and-gun is.

The "common knowledge" on Phoenix is that they can't win with their style. How could it possibly be a bad move, then, for them to move toward a more traditional approach?

Well, first of all you'd be quitting on this season. You can't change your offensive approach more than halfway through the season and expect to be competitive.

Also, in my opinion they don't have a coach with the ability to coach that kind of offense.

Also, a team with Shaq (in his current form), Amare, and Nash on the floor at the same time is a horrendous defensive team.

Janett_Reno
02-05-2008, 10:27 PM
All i can say is wow on this Shaq/Marion trade. Looks like Shaq is flying out in the morn for a physical in Phx. They claim they want him for defense and plug the middle. Amare and him will be a big back line. Marion really does alot and is usually in ever top 10 stat known to man.

If this goes thru, Phx should miss Marion in alot of areas and maybe Shaq being healthy can help them play defense and plug the middle. I am just puzzled how he can run up and down with them. They are doing what i said, the only way to win a title, to have a dominating power forward/slash center or center. Yes, this is one but can he get up and down, how much does he have left, can Phx slow it down and play more half court for Shaq? This is very interesting. Marion will do ok down in Miami but that team sure sux now.

chumdawg
02-05-2008, 10:31 PM
So would you do a deal for Shaq if it cost you Josh?Nope. There's not enough talent left behind to make that move. Shaq would have to go for either worthless or redundant parts. Dampier would qualify for both, if Shaq were on the roster instead.

phxsuns
02-05-2008, 10:37 PM
What a sad day for many Suns fans, specifically Shawn Marion fans like myself. The deal is done, its a wrap. Shaq got his MRI today to see if anythings wrong. Everything went well. Well informed people are all saying the same. Shaq is coming to Phx.

Amare moves to power forward and Shaq becomes the starting center.

A part of me wants to hurl. Shaq's contract is horrendous, make that insane. And what a big change for the Suns, in mid season no less. This can go very very wrong.

But I guess I can see the positives:

- We won't get abused for so many offensive rebounds, which is really our weakness. Its extremely hard to beat us unless you completely kill us on the offensive glass.

-Fewer offensive boards given up= more running opportunities= more chances to score.

-A center to play with Amare, he hasn't had that since his rookie season. He's not a Center, never has been, and won't ever be.

-Kareem wasn't fast, and that worked out well for the Lakers.

-Doubling Shaq, on this team, surrounded by our shooters? Try it.

-A legit post presense, bolds well for the playoffs.

Then the cons:

-Gawd awful contract if he doesn't retire.

-Causes a potential problem with our offensive spacing.

-Marion IS our fast break, let no one tell you differently. Its Marion, followed by Nash, followed by Barbosa. We might be able to run as much with Shaq patrolling the paint, but we won't be nearly as effective without Marion's speed.

-Losing Marion, period. Our cornerstone rock for almost the last decade. Hardly gets tired, never gets injured, scores without needing plays, always guards the best player defensively, all hustle and heart. The man should retire in this uniform and only this uniform. Its sickening that he's being traded.

-We lose perimeter defense, but gain defense in the paint. Which is more important? I can make cases for both.

What a big risk for a team that currently has the best record in the West, its not like we are struggling or something. I just don't see why we'd do this unless something is going on internally. And if anyone thinks we will shoot like we did last Thursday on TNT for the Spurs game in a 7 game series knows nothing about basketball or this team specifically. But of course people like Barkley made it sound like the end of the world. Thats just one horrible shooting night, it happens to all teams and just happened a week ago when we played Chicago too. A bad shooting performance should not scare a GM into making a deal.

Kerr's GM rep is now on the line. He just gave the middle finger to D'antoni and his system.

BGMaverick9
02-05-2008, 10:39 PM
Phoenix is going to have to go through some kind of philosophical changes. You're either saying:

Ease of the gas a bit and let Shaq catch up
Play 4 on 5 and let Shaq just play D
Pray to whoever you want to pray to that he doesn't break down after passing the physical.

This is an all or nothing kind of trade, they HAVE to win in the next 1-2 seasons or this is a bust.

phxsuns, you're not going to be gaining that much defensive presence in the paint if you have zero to no perimeter D. They'll have a clear path and now your big man is going to foul out.

chumdawg
02-05-2008, 10:47 PM
Well, first of all you'd be quitting on this season. You can't change your offensive approach more than halfway through the season and expect to be competitive.A few things... First off, PHX has actually been more flexible in their approach the last couple years than you give them credit for. They are a LONG way from, say, a Golden State. Second, they don't necessarily have to retool everything if they just change out one player. And third, I think you are stepping way out on a thin limb, to suggest that you can't change in-season if you want to be competitive. Detroit and Wallace should have taught you something about that.

Finally, PHX is sitting at the top of the West right now, correct? Suggesting that one move would make them less than "competitive" is a huge stretch, indeed.

Also, in my opinion they don't have a coach with the ability to coach that kind of offense.And what are you basing that on? I think that a lot of people--including just about everyone on this board--underestimates Mike D'Antoni.

Also, a team with Shaq (in his current form), Amare, and Nash on the floor at the same time is a horrendous defensive team.I'll believe that when I see it. Why would you say that?

nikeball
02-05-2008, 10:48 PM
uh marions numbers with and without nash are virtually identical with the exception of fg% for his career. hes the best cutter and one of the best finishers in the nba. this belief that he is somehow entirely a creation of nash that floats around is honestly one of the stupidest notions in the nba.


rep. his numbers before nash were already all star caliber.
Pre-Steve Nash
-------------------FG FGA FG% 3M 3A 3P% FTM FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TO Foul PTS
2001-02 PHO 8.1 17.2 46.9 0.6 1.5 39.3 2.4 2.8 84.5 2.6 7.3 9.9 2.0 1.8 1.8 1.1 2.6 19.1
2002-03 PHO 8.2 18.1 45.2 1.7 4.5 38.7 3.1 3.6 85.1 2.5 7.1 9.5 2.4 1.9 2.3 1.2 2.6 21.2
2003-04 PHO 7.5 17.0 44.0 1.1 3.4 34.0 2.9 3.4 85.1 2.7 6.7 9.3 2.7 2.0 2.1 1.3 2.6 19.0

WITH NASH
2004-05 PHO 7.6 15.9 47.6 1.4 4.2 33.4 2.8 3.4 83.3 2.9 8.4 11.3 1.9 1.5 2.0 1.5 2.5 19.4
2005-06 PHO 8.8 16.9 52.5 1.2 3.6 33.1 3.0 3.7 80.9 3.1 8.8 11.8 1.8 1.5 2.0 1.7 2.8 21.8
2006-07 PHO 7.0 13.4 52.4 1.0 3.2 31.8 2.5 3.1 81.1 2.2 7.7 9.8 1.7 1.4 2.0 1.5 2.7 17.5
2007-08 PHO 6.5 12.3 52.6 1.2 3.6 34.7 1.6 2.3 71.3 1.8 8.0 9.9 2.1 1.0 2.0 1.5 2.5 15.8

Janett_Reno
02-05-2008, 10:50 PM
phxsuns, i understand how you will miss Marion. He has been really good for Phx for along time. It looks like Marion was going to be gone next year and they decided to move him. If anyone person, can make you look great again and if Shaq can just get up and down the floor, Steve Nash can do wonders and he will prolong Shaqs career, if Shaq doesn't take a bad injury.

Who knows, on how smart and good Nash is, it is not impossible for Phx to slow it down and let Shaq and Amare dominate a paint game in half court. A Spurs style game. This all hinges if Shaq can play and not be hurt. If your team can slow it down, keep Shaq in, Nash will do wonders and a big front line is more of a title team. It is a risk because of his health but the way it sounds Marion was going to be gone next year but yes i thought you would have went for a younger player.

All i can say, this is very interesting. If Shaq can be 50 to 75%, watch out for a war in Utah and Lakers against Suns and both those teams are very good. Utah looks very good to me. If Shaq can play, he will hurt us inside, i am guessing and the Spurs haven't been so great so far. The west could be wide open now.

chumdawg
02-05-2008, 10:58 PM
Geez, just look at his FG% before and after Nash and try to make the claim with a straight face that Nash didn't make him a better player.

phxsuns
02-05-2008, 11:08 PM
phxsuns, i understand how you will miss Marion. He has been really good for Phx for along time. It looks like Marion was going to be gone next year and they decided to move him. If anyone person, can make you look great again and if Shaq can just get up and down the floor, Steve Nash can do wonders and he will prolong Shaqs career, if Shaq doesn't take a bad injury.

Who knows, on how smart and good Nash is, it is not impossible for Phx to slow it down and let Shaq and Amare dominate a paint game in half court. A Spurs style game. This all hinges if Shaq can play and not be hurt. If your team can slow it down, keep Shaq in, Nash will do wonders and a big front line is more of a title team. It is a risk because of his health but the way it sounds Marion was going to be gone next year but yes i thought you would have went for a younger player.

All i can say, this is very interesting. If Shaq can be 50 to 75%, watch out for a war in Utah and Lakers against Suns and both those teams are very good. Utah looks very good to me. If Shaq can play, he will hurt us inside, i am guessing and the Spurs haven't been so great so far. The west could be wide open now.

The Suns organization likes to boast that they have the best training staff in the NBA. Able to revive the career of a left for dead Antonio McDyess (who returned their kindness by signing with Detriot) but alas. Not to mention what they've done with Amare, whose enjoying the best recovery ever from microfracture surgury for a big man. And look at the success Grant Hill is having here.

The Suns practices are by far the lightest. 45 minute shoot arounds/plus various drills. You hardly even run. That will help a worn down Shaq recover quicker to whatever is ailing him. Plus it'll keep him fresher for games. I'm sure the staff is coming up with ways to get Shaq's motor going again.

All we need is Shaq to be ready for the last few weeks of the season and the playoffs. An energized Shaq wanting to prove the world and the Lakers wrong will own in the playoffs. But thats a big if. But just imagine if the Suns meet the Lakers in the playoffs this year.. wow.

Word is that he's called Amare and said he will be here tommorrow morning. Shaq is Amare's idol, I'm sure Amare is giddy over this.

But like I said, Marion is my boy. Marion is a WARRIOR. You always know what he'll give you, he's dependable, he's fierce. You can't trade players like that. Marion was never this team's problem. Marion and Amare being played out of position is this team's problem. And I never get tired of those Marion/Dirk battles. Marion is always up in his grill, doesn't back down. But Dirk always goes right at him the same.

Now Amare will have to guard Dirk if we play you guys. I.. don't know what to feel about that. I don't think Amare has ever guard Dirk before for an extended period. It'll be interesting to say the least. I'll be choppin at the bit to see Dirk try to defend Amare though. Really, its a mismatch on the offensive end for both of them. Whoever fouls the other out faster wins.

Our games are about to get a lot more interesting, fellas. If thats even possible.

dirno2000
02-05-2008, 11:25 PM
Huge risk for PHX but I actually think it may be worth it. I say that because I don't think that there was any way they were coming out of the West this year. There are too many teams that would just kill them on the glass.

This wouldn't make them the favorite but it would at least give them a shot. Marion has been great for them but they'd still have two all NBA caliber players along with some very good spare parts.

The question is, and it's been raised many times in this thread, can Dan Tony coach a normal basketball team? My guess in no. Maybe someone who follows the Suns closer could shed more light but this would seem to indicate a power struggle between Kerr and Dan Tony. I can't imagine that the coach is in favor of this move.

jthig32
02-05-2008, 11:25 PM
A few things... First off, PHX has actually been more flexible in their approach the last couple years than you give them credit for. They are a LONG way from, say, a Golden State. Second, they don't necessarily have to retool everything if they just change out one player. And third, I think you are stepping way out on a thin limb, to suggest that you can't change in-season if you want to be competitive. Detroit and Wallace should have taught you something about that.

You're not seriously claiming that Detroit adding Wallace was an adjustment on this level. That's ridiculous.

chumdawg
02-05-2008, 11:27 PM
Good stuff, phxsuns. I agree that this move is much more complex than it seems on the surface. It's fascinating to think about the trickle-down effects of the matchups, as you describe.

And yes, your boy Marion a warrior. It's a shame that he didn't seem to take to things in Phoenix off the court as well as he did on. On the court, he always gave the Suns everything (as far as I could see), and he certainly put enough daggers in our ass. But it was strange to hear about his discomfort off the court. I respect Marion a lot, but it always seemed to me that he asked for more fanfare than he deserved.

Oh, well. An already interesting year just got a whole lot more interesting!

chumdawg
02-05-2008, 11:32 PM
You're not seriously claiming that Detroit adding Wallace was an adjustment on this level. That's ridiculous.Well, you are talking about a change in approach making you not even able to contend anymore. Are you serious?

Look, a major--MAJOR--part of the reason why the Suns have success is that they are so extraordinarily athletic and talented. It's not as much about the system as a lot of people make it out to be. The system itself breaks down into some very fundamental things. They pick-and-roll, they shoot threes at a good clip, they force turnovers and get out on the break. Wouldn't every single NBA team like to do those things as well as the Suns do?

With Shaq in place of Marion they will look different, yes. But everyone else on the roster won't suddenly not be able to do anymore all the things that they do well.

And hell, even if this does mean that they look entirely different, I've been hearing on this board ever since I got here that you can't win a title by running up and down the floor. So in that respect, this is a win-win for the Suns--if said notion is true.

kg_veteran
02-05-2008, 11:44 PM
Shaq - Skinner
Amare - Diaw
Hill
Bell - Barbosa
Nash

Talk about an all or nothing move.

LonghornDub
02-05-2008, 11:48 PM
I hope PHX does this trade. I think Shaq is done. I'm not convinced he'd even play for half of the games remaining this year.

V2M
02-05-2008, 11:51 PM
Report: Shaquille O'Neal could be getting traded
By TIM REYNOLDS, AP Sports Writer
February 6, 2008

MIAMI (AP) -- Shaquille O'Neal is prepared for the Miami Heat to trade him, a confidant of the 14-time All-Star center told The Associated Press on Tuesday night.

O'Neal's associate, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to reveal anything publicly, indicated a move could be imminent.

"Shaq thinks something will happen," the associate said.

The Miami Herald reported earlier Tuesday that the Heat are in "serious and ongoing" trade negotiations with the Phoenix Suns, and the South Florida Sun-Sentinel said the deal could occur "within 48 hours." A Heat spokesman said the team had no comment, and several Suns officials didn't immediately return phone calls from the AP.

The Herald report said the Suns would send Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks to Miami in exchange for O'Neal, who is averaging a career-low 14.2 points and has been sidelined for the past two weeks by a lingering hip injury.

The Arizona Republic, also reported a deal could be imminent and that O'Neal had contacted some Suns players Tuesday night.

When asked last week about another report that a Shaq trade was possible, Heat coach Pat Riley said, "Not true."

But when the Los Angeles Lakers struck a deal with Memphis last week for 7-footer Pau Gasol and instantly strengthened their lineup, there's been constant speculation about how other Western Conference teams would respond.

And a Shaq-to-the-Suns deal would certainly create plenty of buzz.

"Really?" said the Lakers' Kobe Bryant, O'Neal's former teammate, when told of the apparently pending deal. "I know he likes the warm weather."

It isn't known if O'Neal -- who has two full seasons remaining after this one on his $100 million, five-year contract -- would welcome a trade. It also isn't known if the Heat would seek to add guard Smush Parker, who's been on the inactive list for months because of an unresolved legal issue, to the deal. Otherwise, making a 2-for-1 trade would force Miami to cut another player for roster room.

A four-time NBA champion, O'Neal entered this season talking about how he wanted to win at least one more title, saying his "legacy" wouldn't be complete unless he left the game with at least five rings.

If he's going to get No. 5 this year, he'd have to go elsewhere.

The Heat have lost 19 of their last 20 games and have the NBA's worst record at 9-37 -- meaning the 2006 NBA champions are almost a lock to miss the postseason. Phoenix, meanwhile, entered Tuesday with a 1 1/2 -game lead over New Orleans and Dallas in the race for the best record in the Western Conference.

To this point, O'Neal's year has been largely forgettable.

Miami's record has plummeted, O'Neal is going through a divorce and his scoring average is nearly 11 1/2 points below his 25.6 career mark. He suffered a bruised hip on Dec. 22 and has missed four of the past five weeks while trying to recover.

It's his second straight difficult season: O'Neal missed much of the 2006-07 campaign with a knee injury and finished that year with career-lows in games (40), scoring (17.3 points), rebounds (7.4), minutes (28.4) and free-throw percentage (.422).

"There were a lot of problems last year, but whenever you start talking about your problems, it turns into excuses," O'Neal told the AP in October, shortly before this season began. "And I've never made an excuse. So you won't ever hear me mention it again, unless of course you ask me. But there were a lot of problems last year."

Some problems are still there.

The team said he was undergoing another MRI exam on Tuesday, presumably to further determine the extent of the injury, and O'Neal didn't speak before leaving Miami's practice. The Heat play at Detroit on Wednesday.

Last Friday, O'Neal said he and Riley have not discussed any trade possibilities.

"He hasn't spoken to me," O'Neal said at the time. "He hasn't talked about it. I've been in the league 15 years. I've seen it all, been through it all. I've just got to sit back."

Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said on his weekly radio show on Sports 620 KTAR in Phoenix Tuesday night that the story caught him by surprise.

"The trade deadline's coming up so I'm sure there's talk all over the place," he said. "In our day and age now, you make one of those phone calls or answer a phone call everybody in the world knows about it. Other than normal business, I don't know anything that's going on."

Asked if any deal was close, D'Antoni said, "No, no, no."

Marion asked to be traded before the season began but has avoided talk of the subject since then. He is set to make $17 million next season, the final year of his contract, but can opt out of the deal and become a free agent.

Suns owner Robert Sarver said two weeks ago that none of the core players would be traded this season.

Neither Sarver nor Phoenix general manager Steve Kerr returned messages left on their cell phones.

AP sports writer Bob Baum in Phoenix contributed to this report.

nikeball
02-05-2008, 11:54 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AneugboEFxzl77AHI.qZ.E68vLYF?slug=jy-shaqdeal020508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Looks like it is done

Suns, Heat agree to Shaq trade
Suns, Heat agree to Shaq trade
By Johnny Ludden, Yahoo! Sports
February 5, 2008


No longer confident they can win a championship with their current roster, the Phoenix Suns have agreed to a blockbuster trade that will bring them Shaquille O'Neal, pending results of a physical, a source with knowledge of the negotiations said Tuesday.

O'Neal will travel to Phoenix aboard a private plane, the source said, to undergo an MRI on his ailing left hip Wednesday. If he passes the physical, the Suns will complete the trade by sending Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks to the Miami Heat.

The Miami Herald first reported the Suns and Heat were in serious discussions regarding the trade.

Johnny Ludden is the NBA editor for Yahoo! Sports. Send Johnny a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

dude1394
02-05-2008, 11:55 PM
Wow...stinkin' wow..

kg_veteran
02-06-2008, 12:01 AM
If nothing else, as Chum said, the season has gotten a lot more interesting in a hurry...

Flacolaco
02-06-2008, 12:02 AM
Does this really help them?

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 12:03 AM
Shaq - Skinner
Amare - Diaw
Hill
Bell - Barbosa
Nash

Talk about an all or nothing move.On the all side...

Shaq
Amare
Hill
Bell
Nash

...looks pretty damn formidable.

On the nothing side...well, if you thought Marion was the piece that would get you a title, I guess. But everyone knows that Shaq wins titles.

Pretty salty move by the Suns, I think. They sit at first place in the conference, have been contenders year in and year out, but they still make a move. I guess they don't "love their team," despite sitting atop the West.

The ante just went up, that's for sure.

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 12:04 AM
The ante just went up, that's for sure.

Don't think I agree with this. I think the Suns will realize in not too long that they were a better team with the Matrix than they will be with Shaq.

kg_veteran
02-06-2008, 12:05 AM
If we can agree on anything, it's that Kerr doesn't think Dan Tony can win playing Nellie Ball.

Flacolaco
02-06-2008, 12:07 AM
LOL

They sent Marion?

I didn't see that before.

dude1394
02-06-2008, 12:08 AM
Boy you aren't kidding chum, thatsa' one salty matza ball I tell ya'...

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 12:09 AM
Hollinger hates the idea:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=ShaqSuns080206

Not a big fan of Hollinger when he gets too wrapped up in his numbers, but I agree with him here. Marion is a bad ass. A bona fide bad ass. Shaq is old and used up. I can't believe they'd do this.

kg_veteran
02-06-2008, 12:10 AM
Don't think I agree with this. I think the Suns will realize in not too long that they were a better team with the Matrix than they will be with Shaq.

I have my doubts, too. Can they win with only one above average defender in the starting lineup (Bell)? Sure, Shaq will help clog the lane, but will he really make the defense better? The offense? Even on the glass, I'm not sure how much of a difference he makes.

V2M
02-06-2008, 12:10 AM
Gambo: It's A Fact - Shaq Traded To Phoenix

February 5th, 2008 @ 9:12pm

by John Gambadoro/Sports 620 KTAR

The Shaquille O'Neal trade to the Phoenix Suns is not a rumor.

In fact, I expect it to happen sometime early afternoon on Wednesday.

O'Neal will be in Phoenix on Wednesday for a physical, according to a Suns team source.

The Suns have moved Wednesday morning's shoot-around, which was originally scheduled at 9:45 a.m., to 4:45 p.m. - hours prior to their contest against the New Orleans Hornets.

The Suns will part ways with Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks and move to a conventional style with O'Neal playing the 5.

The Suns have major concerns about chemistry issues on the team and feel a trade for O'Neal would alleviate those issues, plus give them the post defender they lack.

The money would be a wash this year and next, but the Suns would be on the hook for $20 million in 2009-10 - the final year of O'Neals' contract. There is a belief that the window for Steve Nash to win a championship is down to this year and next and that O'Neal would give the Suns a better chance to win now.

My sources tell me that O'Neal desperately wants to come to Phoenix and will be rejuvenated to have a chance to win again and that the Suns do not have any concerns over his injured hip.

The Suns will not expect O'Neal to dominate as he did in his prime, in fact his minutes will probably hover around 25 per game as they try to keep him fresh for the playoffs and a potential matchup against Tim Duncan and the Spurs.

Just what this means for Mike D'Antoni is anyone's guess.

It is clear that a trade for O'Neal would be a negative indictment on the Suns current style and would suggest that management does not believe the current run-and-gun style can win a title.

Sports 620 KTAR's Craig Grialou contributed to this report

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 12:12 AM
Well, you are talking about a change in approach making you not even able to contend anymore. Are you serious?

Look, a major--MAJOR--part of the reason why the Suns have success is that they are so extraordinarily athletic and talented. It's not as much about the system as a lot of people make it out to be. The system itself breaks down into some very fundamental things. They pick-and-roll, they shoot threes at a good clip, they force turnovers and get out on the break. Wouldn't every single NBA team like to do those things as well as the Suns do?

With Shaq in place of Marion they will look different, yes. But everyone else on the roster won't suddenly not be able to do anymore all the things that they do well.

And hell, even if this does mean that they look entirely different, I've been hearing on this board ever since I got here that you can't win a title by running up and down the floor. So in that respect, this is a win-win for the Suns--if said notion is true.

You are grasping for straws chum. There is a huge difference between the Detroit Pistons and the Suns here. The Detroit Pistons had a system in place where Rasheed's skills fit in, he just had to change the way he had been playing the game. The Suns have a system that doesn't at all fit Shaq's skills. They have to either change the way the play midseason or be ready to accept a Shaq with very little value. Shaq can't run and gun, he just can't. And despite what you say about Phoenix being flexible, the bottom line is, the run and gun is their identity. Why do you think "7 seconds or less" was written? It's going to be tough to switch from run and gun to traditional during the mid-season.

This is a desperate move by Phoenix. I don't get it. They are sitting at the top of the conference, and they decide to trade a vital cog for a lesser player and totally overhaul their playing system. We'll see how it pans out, but I can tell you I'm thrilled with this trade as a Mavs fan. I don't really see this working out in Phoenix's favor.

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 12:14 AM
I have my doubts, too. Can they win with only one above average defender in the starting lineup (Bell)? Sure, Shaq will help clog the lane, but will he really make the defense better? The offense? Even on the glass, I'm not sure how much of a difference he makes.

He'll certainly give them a new dimension, but I think this trade benefits the Mavs in future matchups with the Suns. Who is going to guard Dirk now? Marion did a fairly ok job at it most of the time. Who will it be now, Bell?

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 12:15 AM
If we can agree on anything, it's that Kerr doesn't think Dan Tony can win playing Nellie Ball.Not so fast, bronco. Don't you imagine that Nellie would have killed to have had Shaq and Nash on the same team?

Kerr was there at 12:01am on July 1, 2004, to recruit Nash...so I wouldn't dismiss Kerr's opinion of "Nellie Ball" just yet.

kg_veteran
02-06-2008, 12:17 AM
Not so fast, bronco. Don't you imagine that Nellie would have killed to have had Shaq and Nash on the same team?

Kerr was there at 12:01am on July 1, 2004, to recruit Nash...so I wouldn't dismiss Kerr's opinion of "Nellie Ball" just yet.

Explain to me, then, how they are going to run-and-gun with Shaq.

It ain't gonna happen. But don't let me stop you from spinning away...:)

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 12:18 AM
I have my doubts, too. Can they win with only one above average defender in the starting lineup (Bell)? Sure, Shaq will help clog the lane, but will he really make the defense better? The offense? Even on the glass, I'm not sure how much of a difference he makes.

I do wonder. Are Amare's defensive problems in part because he is playing out of position? I haven't seen a lot out of him to suggest he is a good defensive player, but I have to imagine he would be better defending other power forwards rather than centers. That's the only way I can see Shaq improving the defense really. But the problem is Shaq is a much worse defender than Marion. Is having players in more traditional positions going to improve the team defense enough make up for the lost of Marion? Is Dan Tony going to even care to make this team defense work? Like you, I have my doubts.

I also see Shaq clogging the lane on offense and making it harder for Amare to work. I mean, Shaq is going to want the ball and so will Amare. Will the Suns find that delicate balance and make it all work? Who is going to pick up all of Marions garbage buckets and baskets off the cuts?

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 12:18 AM
You are grasping for straws chum. There is a huge difference between the Detroit Pistons and the Suns here. The Detroit Pistons had a system in place where Rasheed's skills fit in, he just had to change the way he had been playing the game. The Suns have a system that doesn't at all fit Shaq's skills. They have to either change the way the play midseason or be ready to accept a Shaq with very little value. Shaq can't run and gun, he just can't. And despite what you say about Phoenix being flexible, the bottom line is, the run and gun is their identity. Why do you think "7 seconds or less" was written? It's going to be tough to switch from run and gun to traditional during the mid-season.

This is a desperate move by Phoenix. I don't get it. They are sitting at the top of the conference, and they decide to trade a vital cog for a lesser player and totally overhaul their playing system. We'll see how it pans out, but I can tell you I'm thrilled with this trade as a Mavs fan. I don't really see this working out in Phoenix's favor.If you think that an NBA team--any NBA team--isn't going to figure out how to use Shaquille O'Neal to their benefit...well, then I guess we just aren't on the same page.

If Shaq is not anywhere the guy he used to be, then Phoenix isn't going to benefit. But if he is, they will. That's just pretty simple, the way I see it.

kg_veteran
02-06-2008, 12:19 AM
He'll certainly give them a new dimension, but I think this trade benefits the Mavs in future matchups with the Suns. Who is going to guard Dirk now? Marion did a fairly ok job at it most of the time. Who will it be now, Bell?

It creates new matchup issues, for both teams. Amare will have to guard Dirk or Howard, which he can't do. On the other end, Dirk will have to guard Amare, which will pose problems as well. Frankly, I see both teams playing a lot more zone when they match up now.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 12:21 AM
Explain to me, then, how they are going to run-and-gun with Shaq.

It ain't gonna happen. But don't let me stop you from spinning away...:)The rest of the team isn't going to wear weights on their ankles just because Shaq is on the roster.

You are using a straw-man argument against this concept you have of "Nellie Ball."

kg_veteran
02-06-2008, 12:21 AM
I also see Shaq clogging the lane on offense and making it harder for Amare to work. I mean, Shaq is going to want the ball and so will Amare. Will the Suns find that delicate balance and make it all work? Who is going to pick up all of Marions garbage buckets and baskets off the cuts?

Right. It will be much easier for the Mavs to zone up against the Suns if Shaq and Amare are on the court, and it will be much more difficult for Nash and Amare to run their P&R unless Shaq is going to uselessly stand out of the way.

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 12:21 AM
If Shaq is not anywhere the guy he used to be[/B], then Phoenix isn't going to benefit. But if he is, they will. That's just pretty simple, the way I see it.

Even if Shaq isn't completely done (which I think he is, but I've been wrong before), I'm not convinced that they will automatically benefit.

Whatever level Shaq is at, it has to be enough to match and surpass what Marion brought to the team in order for the Suns to benefit. Marion is a 20+ PER guy who does all sorts of things incredibly well. I would be very, very hesitant to believe that Shaq could possibly make up for all that and more.

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 12:22 AM
Not so fast, bronco. Don't you imagine that Nellie would have killed to have had Shaq and Nash on the same team?

Kerr was there at 12:01am on July 1, 2004, to recruit Nash...so I wouldn't dismiss Kerr's opinion of "Nellie Ball" just yet.

A 29 year old Shaq and 29 year old Nash, sure. When both are in their mid 30's? Well....

kg_veteran
02-06-2008, 12:24 AM
The rest of the team isn't going to wear weights on their ankles just because Shaq is on the roster.

You are using a straw-man argument against this concept you have of "Nellie Ball."

True, but what made their fastbreak so lethal was Marion at the 4 and Amare at the 5. Their bigs were able to outrun their counterparts down the floor. Now, that really won't be the case.

Don't be so defensive, Chum. Even the Phoenix writer can see that this is an indictment of the style they've been playing in Phoenix.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 12:27 AM
A 29 year old Shaq and 29 year old Nash, sure. When both are in their mid 30's? Well....Everybody uses steroids these days. 35 is the new 29.

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 12:27 AM
If you think that an NBA team--any NBA team--isn't going to figure out how to use Shaquille O'Neal to their benefit...well, then I guess we just aren't on the same page.

If Shaq is not anywhere the guy he used to be, then Phoenix isn't going to benefit. But if he is, they will. That's just pretty simple, the way I see it.

I don't think that at all. Re-read my posts if you like. I said earlier in one of these threads that Phoenix would benefit from a Shaq trade IF they didn't have to give up one of their top 3 players. I don't think the benefit of Shaq outweighs what Marion gave them. Sure, I think they can come up with a system that to an extent makes Shaq work and the team work as best it can. But does that come close to being the system they are running with Marion? I highly doubt it. But this could be a defining moment for your boy, Nash. If he does "make every teammate better" maybe he can find a way to make a traditional system with an aging Shaq as one of the top options work. I'm just not seeing it.

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 12:29 AM
Everybody uses steroids these days. 35 is the new 29.

You better send Shaq the address of the nearest Mexican pharmacy because his career has been going nowhere but downhill since he passed the 30 year old mark.

kg_veteran
02-06-2008, 12:29 AM
35 is the new 29.

As I approach that age, I can only hope so. :)

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 12:32 AM
True, but what made their fastbreak so lethal was Marion at the 4 and Amare at the 5. Their bigs were able to outrun their counterparts down the floor. Now, that really won't be the case.

Don't be so defensive, Chum. Even the Phoenix writer can see that this is an indictment of the style they've been playing in Phoenix.Indictment of the style? I'm saying that even the creators of the style would create it differently if they could have a guy like Shaq or Yao on their team. Guys like Nellie and D'Antoni scrap it out as best they can with what they have. But would they want a Shaq? You're damn right they would! Nellie tried to get a dominant center, in Bradley. That was the best that he could do.

What we are going to see now is exactly what this "style" can do if it has an anchor at the five. I see no reason to dismiss their chances out of hand. Think about the basketball that was being played in the late 80's. Would you have taken your chances with a slow and steady Shaq to go against Kareem and Parrish? A guy like Amare who is Tarpley and Worthy and McHale on steroids? A guy like Nash who can do what Magic did? I'm just sayin'...

Flacolaco
02-06-2008, 12:33 AM
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/flacolaco/shaq.jpg

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 12:34 AM
For what it's worth, Yahoo! is reporting it now:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AgmVXOKkGObC_.jqsxGDvUk5nYcB?slug=jy-shaqdeal020508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 12:39 AM
After the Lakers trade for Gasol, I have to say this makes me feel a lot happier. One team got better, one got worse.

V2M
02-06-2008, 12:43 AM
I'm just surprised PHX isn't throwing in a 1st round pick or two... like they do with all their trades! ;)

Seriously though, I think this deal benefits the Suns more in their matchup against the Spurs... and hurts a bit in their matchup against the Mavs.

Windmill360
02-06-2008, 12:54 AM
Well, we will now alot sooner than later how the trade works out. Im surprised this all went down so fast. Has this been in the headlines for a while?

EricaLubarsky
02-06-2008, 12:58 AM
signing Damp doesnt seem so dumb anymore does it. He's the only guy that can stand up to Shaq 1v1. It looked like we signed Dampier to battle a Lakers team that no longer existed.

bernardos70
02-06-2008, 01:04 AM
I think Nash would have been able to guard him much better.

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 01:12 AM
Seriously though, I think this deal benefits the Suns more in their matchup against the Spurs... and hurts a bit in their matchup against the Mavs.

Agreed.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 01:18 AM
02/06/08 - #1 seed: Phoenix Suns

04/03/08 - #6 seed: Phoenix Suns

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 01:22 AM
What are we going to do about Shaq if we play PHX in the playoffs? The bad news is that Erick Dampier will actually have to play, if we play Phoenix.

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 01:25 AM
What are we going to do about Shaq if we play PHX in the playoffs? The bad news is that Erick Dampier will actually have to play, if we play Phoenix.

I don't think that particular matchup will be such a big deal. I don't think Shaq will give Damp/Diop any more problems in the low post than Amare does. Amare tears us up.

The real problem, as KG mentioned, will be that Dirk now has to guard Amare.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 01:28 AM
So, Shaq will give us fits, AND Amare will give us fits? That doesn't look too good.

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 01:32 AM
So, Shaq will give us fits, AND Amare will give us fits? That doesn't look too good.

Just Amare. I don't think Shaq will give us fits at all. Damp plays him quite well, generally. Plus, like I said, I'm still thoroughly of the opinion that Shaq is done.

Dortmund
02-06-2008, 01:34 AM
Marion for Shaq?! Way to make a bad trade Suns. Thanks.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 01:37 AM
Just Amare. I don't think Shaq will give us fits at all. Damp plays him quite well, generally. Plus, like I said, I'm still thoroughly of the opinion that Shaq is done.Then why in the hell would would the Mavs have been angling for him, as recent reports suggest?

I think it's time to put down the Mavs-colored-glasses. We are talking about Shaquille O'Neal, for goodness' sakes.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 01:43 AM
I think it's time to put down the Mavs-colored-glasses. We are talking about Shaquille O'Neal, for goodness' sakes.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/acidkidd/Kazaam-frnt.jpg

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 01:44 AM
Then why in the hell would would the Mavs have been angling for him, as recent reports suggest?

I think it's time to put down the Mavs-colored-glasses. We are talking about Shaquille O'Neal, for goodness' sakes.

Is everything the Mavs front office does correct? You clearly don't think so, having listened to the same 2-3 things you've repeated over and over on this board. Now you're suddenly assuming that they have 100% sound judgment? Which is it?

Just because the Mavs, Suns, or any other team are interested in Shaq doesn't mean he's not done.

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 01:46 AM
chum, did you watch the finals a couple of years ago? Damp seemed to have no problem neutralizing Shaq. The Mavs certainly didn't lose that series because of Shaq, I can tell you that much. In fact, that series made me realized just how washed up Shaq was. The fact that Shaq could be taken out of a series by Erick Dampier tells you he was just a shell of his former self at that point. And let me tell you, it hasn't gotten any better for Shaq since then.

Natte
02-06-2008, 01:51 AM
Apparently Dallas wanted Shaq first, and the Suns panicked at the sight of a Shaq/Dirk/Josh frontline. Here's the relevant info from Chris Broussard:



My first thought was, "That's ridiculous! There's no way the Suns would trade for Shaq.''

With all due respect to The Diesel, he's just not what he used to be. And he's not worth $40 million over the next two years.

Then I began calling around and speaking with folks in the know. Here's what I was told:

"It's close to a done deal,'' said someone with knowledge of the Suns' thinking.

"I think it's going to happen,'' said someone else with knowledge of the Suns' thinking.

"Why?'' I cried. "I can't see one benefit to adding Shaq.''

Here's what I was told:

First, the Suns don't think they can win it all as currently constructed. Their lack of big, physical players scares the daylights out of them when they look at a Lakers frontline that features Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom (not to mention Ronny Turiaf).

I was told the Suns got word that Dallas was trying to trade for Shaq (in large part to combat the new-look Lakers' behemoth front line) and that that is what set this Phoenix-Miami deal in motion.

Afraid of what a Dallas team that featured Shaq, Dirk and Josh Howard would look like, the Suns have swept in and attempted to steal Shaq from the Mavericks.

I was also told that the locker room chemistry between Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire had gotten too negative to bear. No fighting, no yelling, just a bad vibe.

"But financially, it seems disastrous,'' I said.

In actuality, it's not that bad. Marion was owed more than $17 million next year, and he would have been foolish to opt out of that deal because no one else could have or would have paid him that much. Add in Marcus Banks' $4.1 million, and the Suns are actually saving money by paying Shaq $20 million.

Banks has two more years after next at almost $10 million total, so adding Shaq would cost the Suns about $10 million in the long run. That still doesn't jibe with owner Robert Sarver's cost-cutting mandate, but it's not as bad as I first thought.

Basketball-wise, the Suns believe the positives are this:

1. Shaq will give them the big, physical presence they sorely lack on both ends of the floor.

2. Shaq will enable Amare Stoudemire to play his true and preferred position of power forward, which will make Amare more effective, possibly increasing his scoring and rebounding numbers.

3. Steve Nash will make Shaq a bigger scorer than he currently is in Miami because of his ability to create easy baskets for the big fella. Plus, the Suns' 3-point shooting ability will open things up for Shaq inside.

4. The Suns can still run with Shaq because you don't need all five players sprinting upcourt to run a fastbreak.

The Suns aren't completely sold though.

I'm told that Amare wants the deal to happen and spoke extensively with Shaq on the telephone Tuesday night.

I'm told that Nash has some apprehension, but he's weighing the pros and cons. I'm told Coach Mike D'Antoni has even more apprehension, and that there are questions as to whether he can coach the team in a way that will utilize Shaq's abilities.

I'm told new president Steve Kerr thinks adding Shaq is a great opportunity for the Suns organization.

Personally, I wouldn't make this trade if I were the Suns. While they don't look dominant out West, the truth is that nobody looks dominant out West. They are one of four or five teams with a legitimate chance of winning the conference title.

I would give this core of Stoudemire, Nash and Marion one more shot before blowing it up.

While I understand the notion of Shaq adding a big, physical presence, I don't know that you can count on him to do that at his age (he'll turn 36 on March 6).

First, I think he could get in huge foul trouble because of Nash's inability to contain dribble penetration. And secondly, I don't know that Shaq will even be healthy most of the time.

I do like the idea of Dallas adding Shaq because I don't think they'd rely on him as much. I think he'd be a more effective version of Erick Dampier and DeSagana Diop. But I think the Suns will need more out of him than Dallas would.

I think Grant Hill and Boris Diaw can make up for Marion's offense, but defensively, the Suns will miss The Matrix.

I agree that Shaq's presence will make Stoudemire better, and that he will not stop the Suns from running fast breaks. He'll slow down their halfcourt offense, but with all those shooters around him, he should be more effective.

After speaking with these "folks in the know,'' I can see some pluses to adding Shaq to the Suns.

But I still wouldn't do it.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 01:51 AM
Is everything the Mavs front office does correct? You clearly don't think so, having listened to the same 2-3 things you've repeated over and over on this board. Now you're suddenly assuming that they have 100% sound judgment? Which is it?

Just because the Mavs, Suns, or any other team are interested in Shaq doesn't mean he's not done.Oh, I think they know--just as well as the rest of us do--what would be good for them. Obviously, they aren't any good at all at actually bringing those things to fruition.

And that's pretty much a fact.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 01:53 AM
chum, did you watch the finals a couple of years ago? Damp seemed to have no problem neutralizing Shaq. The Mavs certainly didn't lose that series because of Shaq, I can tell you that much. In fact, that series made me realized just how washed up Shaq was. The fact that Shaq could be taken out of a series by Erick Dampier tells you he was just a shell of his former self at that point. And let me tell you, it hasn't gotten any better for Shaq since then.What are you saying, that if the Heat didn't have Shaq in '06 we could have beaten them?

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 01:56 AM
Shaq's stats from the 2006 NBA Finals:

Game 1 - 17 points, 7 rebounds
Game 2 - 5 points, 6 rebounds
Game 3 - 16 points, 11 rebounds
Game 4 - 17 points, 13 rebounds
Game 5 - 18 points, 12 rebounds
Game 6 - 9 points, 12 rebounds

Keep in mind, he was averaging 20 and 9 that year and had done pretty well in the previous series against a good Pistons post defense. He never reached his season average in scoring once in that series against Dampier. He did some decent work on the boards, but I guess that isn't too hard when your opponent was throwing up as many bricks as the Mavs threw up that series.

pkdumas
02-06-2008, 01:57 AM
The Suns are screwed.

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 02:06 AM
I was told the Suns got word that Dallas was trying to trade for Shaq (in large part to combat the new-look Lakers' behemoth front line) and that that is what set this Phoenix-Miami deal in motion.

Afraid of what a Dallas team that featured Shaq, Dirk and Josh Howard would look like, the Suns have swept in and attempted to steal Shaq from the Mavericks.

So there you go chum, it turns out that it was indeed a panic move.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 02:06 AM
Shaq's stats from the 2006 NBA Finals:

Game 1 - 17 points, 7 rebounds
Game 2 - 5 points, 6 rebounds
Game 3 - 16 points, 11 rebounds
Game 4 - 17 points, 13 rebounds
Game 5 - 18 points, 12 rebounds
Game 6 - 9 points, 12 rebounds

Keep in mind, he was averaging 20 and 9 that year and had done pretty well in the previous series against a good Pistons post defense. He never reached his season average in scoring once in that series against Dampier. He did some decent work on the boards, but I guess that isn't too hard when your opponent was throwing up as many bricks as the Mavs threw up that series.And now the Suns are going to get that production, while moving Amare back to his natural position.

Beastly.

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 02:07 AM
Oh, I think they know--just as well as the rest of us do--what would be good for them. Obviously, they aren't any good at all at actually bringing those things to fruition.

And that's pretty much a fact.

Actually, "fact" is quite an inappropriate word there. Some better options would have been "opinion" or "conjecture."

It's interesting that you pointed out that whoever above was using a "straw-man" argument when all you're doing is engaging in a nice little bit of circular logic. "Phoenix is interested in Shaq because he's good. Shaq is good because Dallas/Phoenix/whoever are interested in him." That's really all you've got on this, and actually I think you did the exact same thing with the Kidd discussion in the other thread.

When arguing that Player X is worth the interest he's getting from teams, you can't use the fact that the teams are interested in him as proof that he's worth it. That assumes the proposition it sets out to prove. The question people want answered is WHY he's worth it.

Where are the facts to back up the assertion that 2008 Shaq is worth a damn? That he's worth more than Shawn Marion, one of the better players in the entire league? The numbers certainly don't lend any credence to that.

Frankly chum, I think all you've got on this particular matter are opinions (justified as you may be in having them) that you stamp as fact. See above.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 02:07 AM
I'm told that Nash has some apprehension, but he's weighing the pros and cons. I'm told Coach Mike D'Antoni has even more apprehension, and that there are questions as to whether he can coach the team in a way that will utilize Shaq's abilities.

I wonder who the source was? Common sense?

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 02:10 AM
And now the Suns are going to get that production, while moving Amare back to his natural position.

Beastly.

No, considering that Shaq is putting stats that are roughly 70% of what he put up back then, the Suns are going to get only some of that production.

Semi-beastly.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 02:10 AM
Actually, "fact" is quite an inappropriate word there. Some better options would have been "opinion" or "conjecture."

It's interesting that you pointed out that whoever above was using a "straw-man" argument when all you're doing is engaging in a nice little bit of circular logic. "Phoenix is interested in Shaq because he's good. Shaq is good because Dallas/Phoenix/whoever are interested in him." That's really all you've got on this, and actually I think you did the exact same thing with the Kidd discussion in the other thread.

When arguing that Player X is worth the interest he's getting from teams, you can't use the fact that the teams are interested in him as proof that he's worth it. That assumes the proposition it sets out to prove. The question people want answered is WHY he's worth it.

Where are the facts to back up the assertion that 2008 Shaq is worth a damn? That he's worth more than Shawn Marion, one of the better players in the entire league? The numbers certainly don't lend any credence to that.

Frankly chum, I think all you've got on this particular matter are opinions (justified as you may be in having them) that you stamp as fact. See above.


You've got it all wrong P-Dub - Chum doesn't argue FOR anything so much as he argues AGAINST the Mavs... (but he still loves this team, even though he never has anything nice to say about them - and if he does, he certainly doesn't share it with us!)

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 02:11 AM
I wonder who the source was? Common sense?

Giggle.

pkdumas
02-06-2008, 02:12 AM
If the Suns are indeed blowing up the team, maybe they'll send Steve Nash to the Dallas Mavericks. I bet Nash regrets that decision as much as Cuban. Did either of them really need a few extra million? Whatever happened to sticking by your friends. F'in Canadian.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 02:15 AM
As for the Mavs, I was referring to the fact that they have very publicly pursued players (Kidd, Mourning, Garnett, even Shaq) yet never landed any of those players. That is the "fact" that I refer to. If you don't you recall the Kidd and Mourning negotiations, or if you disagree that they pursued Garnett and/or Shaq, then I guess we can't have an intelligent discussion on those points.

I'd respond to the rest of your carefully crafted post, except there is not much to respond to. Either you get the fish you are after, or you don't. I'm saying that the Mavs didn't get the fish they were after. It's up to you, I guess, to determine whether those fish were worth going after.

As for your last point...I'm generally of the opinion that a player is worth what another team will pay for him, no more and no less. So, I see Shaq as being worth Shawn Marion and Markus Banks, no more and no less. Where we differ is on the notion of how that will benefit the respective teams.

And I'm just saying that I have seen Shaq, I have seen my teams go against Shaq, and I know what that guy can do. Probably the last inclination I would ever have would be to laugh at a guy like Shaquille O'Neal.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 02:17 AM
Probably the last inclination I would ever have would be to laugh at a guy like Shaquille O'Neal.

I know I already mentioned this, but:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/acidkidd/Kazaam-frnt.jpg

Natte
02-06-2008, 02:17 AM
The Suns were competing with a Dallas bid that included Josh Howard to acquire O'Neal.

Source: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0205shaqonline.html

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 02:18 AM
Yes, you saw him tear up the teams fielded by your boy, Nellie. Maybe that's where this respect comes from? However, one thing's for sure, he hasn't had that same success against those teams fielded by Avery.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 02:19 AM
You've got it all wrong P-Dub - Chum doesn't argue FOR anything so much as he argues AGAINST the Mavs... (but he still loves this team, even though he never has anything nice to say about them - and if he does, he certainly doesn't share it with us!)Oh, I love the Mavs, to be sure. They are just in a difficult stretch right now. Certain elements of management probably need to go.

In the meantime, when is the last time we made an aggressive move to improve our team? I'd guess it was back in the summer of '04, when we traded Jamison.

We're going on four years now. I'd like to see some action.

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 02:20 AM
The Suns were competing with a Dallas bid that included Josh Howard to acquire O'Neal.

Source: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0205shaqonline.html

Really? Wow, I sure am glad for Phoenix then. I'd say this certainly helps make up for them swiping Nash away from us if true.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 02:24 AM
Ugh, I hate to hear Howard's name in that report. Every Mav but Dirk is on the block, it seems.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 02:25 AM
Oh, I love the Mavs, to be sure.


What do you love about the Mavs, exactly?

Is it the name of the team? The logo? The fact that they're geographically located in Dallas?

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 02:31 AM
What do you love about the Mavs, exactly?

Is it the name of the team? The logo? The fact that they're geographically located in Dallas?It's the fact that they are geographically located in Dallas. That home blood is pretty strong.

Now, these days I am hoping that they find a way to get their collective heads out of their asses, but still...they are still the Mavericks. Trust me, if I followed them through the 90's, I can follow them through some braindead management moves.

Don't worry about me, Underdog. I'll be alright.

Nash13
02-06-2008, 02:35 AM
This move might not be so bad for the Suns. I'm willing to bet that Marion threating to opt out at the end of the season played a large factor in this. They probably knew he was opting out, and decided to get something out of nothing. Shaq, like it or not if you're a suns fan, is probably the best you could ask for. I can actually see Shaq doing well on the team, or at least a lot better. He can average 6 more ppg off of Nash alone, and they're rebounding problem is pretty much gone. I think as a pf, Amare could average more rebounds and stay out of foul trouble a little less. It'll be interesting to see how there offense works. And they've completely lost the ability to guard Dirk. I think with or without the trade, Dallas is a better team.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 02:42 AM
It's the fact that they are geographically located in Dallas. That home blood is pretty strong.

Now, these days I am hoping that they find a way to get their collective heads out of their asses, but still...they are still the Mavericks. Trust me, if I followed them through the 90's, I can follow them through some braindead management moves.

Don't worry about me, Underdog. I'll be alright.


Wow, that's a little depressing...

I hope you'll be alright, because anyone who can't enjoy the Mavs of the past few seasons (but still claims to be a fan) probably doesn't derive much pleasure from life...

I can't help but worry for you... I'll pray to [[insert deity here]] for your happiness...

:rolleyes:

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 02:55 AM
Why do you assume that the Mavs of the last few seasons have any bearing on how much pleasure I get from life? If you think in those terms, then it is I who worries for you.

I've actually been pretty happy about the Mavs the last few years, just so you know. Not only do I get to enjoy the Mavs' prowess, but I also get to root on Nash and Finley and Nellie and even Najera. The little mavs aren't doing too bad, my man. Not too bad at all.

Pongo
02-06-2008, 03:36 AM
"The Suns were competing with a Dallas bid that included Josh Howard to acquire O'Neal."
??!

THANK YOU, Suns.

Bestest friends foreverest. ;)

Underdog
02-06-2008, 03:40 AM
Why do you assume that the Mavs of the last few seasons have any bearing on how much pleasure I get from life? If you think in those terms, then it is I who worries for you.
You're either twisting my words or misunderstanding them...

If you watch sports, is it not for pleasure? If you can't find pleasure in watching "your team" play well, then why call them "your team"? If you're calling them "your team" then I would assume it's because you've invested at least the smallest portion of your life to them... So, it seems as though you're investing part of your life into something that brings you little or no pleasure (if nothing else, you spend a lot of TIME bitching about the Mavs on this site, thus bringing little or no pleasure to those around you...)

It makes me wonder if you have the same issue with other aspects of your life, thus deriving little pleasure from life on the whole? (obviously I don't know you, but IF your attitude here reflects other aspects of your life, then I'm probably not too far off the mark - but I hope I'm totally wrong about that...)

I've actually been pretty happy about the Mavs the last few years, just so you know. Not only do I get to enjoy the Mavs' prowess, but I also get to root on Nash and Finley and Nellie and even Najera. The little mavs aren't doing too bad, my man. Not too bad at all.
So why don't you ever feel compelled to share why you think "the little Mavs aren't doing too bad" on this forum? Surely you know enough about basketball to focus on the good things if you choose to (hell, I'm sure you could write a dissertation on why Avery is the best thing that ever happened to the Mavs, if you were so inclined...)

Don't get me wrong - skepticism is healthy, but it's a lot healthier when it's counterbalanced by a bit of faith (especially when you consider your "audience" around here...)

jthig32
02-06-2008, 05:20 AM
If this deal is really official, the Suns finish no better than 4th in the West, and I might be willing to bet they finish even lower.

And if the Mavs were discussing Josh Howard in a deal for Shaq, allow me to first say "thank you Suns!" and second say "what the HELL Mavs front office!?!?!?!?"

And let me just say, I agree with their overall idea of becoming more traditional. I've been saying they had to do that for a while now. However, I don't think becoming traditional in the middle of the season is going to work very well. If they're not going traditional but will still run with Shaq, I don't see that working all that well either, offensively and defensively.

And while I firmly believed that they could never put together a string of 16 wins for the title, I'm not going to act like they wouldn't have scared me in the playoffs. We match up poorly with them, and as long as they were hot, they'd have a pretty good shot at taking us down in a series.

If this trade goes down, I'm no longer scared of them, at all. If I'm wrong, I'm going to look very foolish. We shall see.

BTW Chum, before you start accusing people around here of having on their Mavs-colored glasses, you might want to check out the reaction of the Phoenix fans on a few blogs and message boards.

dude1394
02-06-2008, 07:05 AM
I don't think that at all. Re-read my posts if you like. I said earlier in one of these threads that Phoenix would benefit from a Shaq trade IF they didn't have to give up one of their top 3 players. I don't think the benefit of Shaq outweighs what Marion gave them. Sure, I think they can come up with a system that to an extent makes Shaq work and the team work as best it can. But does that come close to being the system they are running with Marion? I highly doubt it. But this could be a defining moment for your boy, Nash. If he does "make every teammate better" maybe he can find a way to make a traditional system with an aging Shaq as one of the top options work. I'm just not seeing it.

Case in point would be a shaq/dwade team stinkin' up the joint to the tune of the worst records in the league. We'll see, I tend to think they've made a pretty horrific boo-boo here and quite an indictment off D'Antoni.

dude1394
02-06-2008, 07:08 AM
What are we going to do about Shaq if we play PHX in the playoffs? The bad news is that Erick Dampier will actually have to play, if we play Phoenix.

I dont' really see that as a problem. The problem with having damp before is he did NOT have anyone to guard. Now he does. I don't expect snack will be out-quicking him on a P&R.

But I WOULD expect little stevie to get some pretty wide-open looks from having someone with such a large derričre set a screen.

dude1394
02-06-2008, 07:10 AM
Then why in the hell would would the Mavs have been angling for him, as recent reports suggest?

I think it's time to put down the Mavs-colored-glasses. We are talking about Shaquille O'Neal, for goodness' sakes.

Because in our case we'd be replacing 20 minutes of Bass with 20 minutes of dampier or conversely 25minutes of dampier with 25minutes of snack.

Dampier is one of our problems, Marion is not a problem in phoenix.

Flacolaco
02-06-2008, 08:15 AM
Does anyone know Shaq's career 3 point shooting numbers, and his 40 time?

Usually Lurkin
02-06-2008, 08:19 AM
yeah, all the reasons we wanted him are reasons the Suns may be getting him. All the reasons we didn't want him are the same reasons people think he will hurt the Suns. Frankly, at this point, I'm glad to see that they are running the experiment, and not our Mavs.

One thing that Shaq will likely bring that hasn't been discussed is ref respect on the defensive end. Whether or not he can still move fast enough to stay in front of the likes of Dampier is one thing. That he'll be able to throw more elbows and push and shove harder than anyone else in the league is another. That how the refs ignore shaq will allow others to get away with just a bit more is huge.

V2M
02-06-2008, 09:03 AM
Suns will regret trading for O'Neal
By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports
February 6, 2008

As long as the Phoenix Suns linger as that championship-free franchise in the desert, they will continue to regret making a trade for a broken-down Shaquille O'Neal. Between going for it, and sheer desperation, there is the finest line. What happened to believing in Mike D'Antoni's system? What happened to believing speed and finesse could deliver a championship?

In every way, this trade is an indictment of these D'Antoni glory years with the Suns. If Suns president Steve Kerr is thrusting Shaq onto his coach, he never bought into his coach's system. If D'Antoni is going along with this, you have to wonder whether he ever truly believed his way could win a title.

If he's willing trade to Shawn Marion for this Shaq, the architect of this system has surrendered.

"What are they (expletive) thinking?" one Western Conference executive blurted late Tuesday night.

"I have no clue what they are thinking," one Eastern Conference scout said. "Shaq retired two years ago."

"It seems like a classic clash of styles," one Western Conference GM said.

Still, there was one Eastern Conference GM who said, "I give Phoenix credit for rolling the dice and trying to make this happen."

This is beyond a roll of the dice. Shaq has to pass a physical in Phoenix on Wednesday, a source told Yahoo! Sports, and you wonder if the Suns elders might come to their senses and make sure that O'Neal "fails" the examination.

For reasons that are clear, Shaq doesn't fit offensively with the Suns. He can't run anymore. He can't shoot. He still was groaning about his touches in Miami, and you think he's going to accept life as the fourth, maybe fifth, option at times? There's little evidence to suggest Shaq simply will embrace the role of defensive stopper that the Suns so desperately want of him.

Do you think Shaq will be content with rebounding and throwing outlets to start fast breaks, never to be rewarded on the offensive end? Alonzo Mourning did it late in his Miami career, but Shaq never has come to terms with his basketball mortality. He still thinks he's the Diesel, and God bless him for it. It makes him bigger than life. Yet it doesn't make him right for the Suns.

Most of all, Shaq can't stay on the floor. He is broken down. He will be 36 next month. He always is hurt now. He has been meeting constantly with doctors this season, MRI after MRI on his hip. His knees still struggle to carry those 340 pounds on his bones. Shaq's spirit was built to endure forever, but his body is a different story.

The Suns are hoping a chance to play for a contender will motivate him to do his rehab and keep his weight down, but even that is wishful thinking. Listen, Shaq had one title left in him. Pat Riley squeezed it out of him. It's over. He doesn't bring Grant Hill's desperation to be a champion. Shaq has been there, done that four times, and you wonder how much that lure even drives him anymore.

Sure, Shaq would've made more sense for the Dallas Mavericks' half-court style, for an owner, Mark Cuban, who doesn't dump good players and future draft picks to stay out of the luxury tax. Yet that's all the Suns have done for the past year under owner Robert Sarver. If the Suns are willing to pay the $40 million owed Shaq over the next two years, they never should have traded tough-guy Kurt Thomas to the Seattle SuperSonics. He always did a good job defending Tim Duncan. He rebounded. He made shots. Most of all, he stayed on the floor.

Ultimately, Shaq can't do that anymore. How in the world is he going to make it to the end of June, through a long playoff run? Odds are he'll be wearing a suit on the bench come playoff time for the Suns.

So yes, Marion wants out of Phoenix. What does it tell you about him that he would welcome a trade to the worst team in the NBA? He wants a max-contract extension, and the Suns are unwilling to pay him. Here in Phoenix, he has a chance to win a championship, but apparently he is thrilled with taking a trip to lottery-land with the Miami Heat. Maybe Marion will opt out of the $17.8 million owed him in 2008-09 and become a free agent. Maybe Pat Riley re-signs him. Either way, Marion ought to call the Atlanta Hawks' Joe Johnson and see how life is with a loser.

Nevertheless, Kerr has played for too many championship teams to even understand a player who would want out of a system and away from a point guard who made him a star. To trade Marion is plausible for a lot reasons, but for Shaq? Now? Without the suspensions against the Spurs in the conference semifinals, the Suns were sure they could've beaten San Antonio. Maybe they were right, but trying to change themselves because the Lakers grabbed Pau Gasol, because they fear the Mavericks will get Jason Kidd, is the wrong way.

Yes, the Suns believe they need strength in the middle. They need a defensive presence. They wanted Amare Stoudemire to move to power forward, where the league's centers no longer can destroy him on a nightly basis. Still, this trade doesn't get the Suns closer to a title, just closer to heartbreak.

"Shaq doesn't fit anything they do," one Eastern Conference assistant coach said Tuesday night. "What makes the Suns great in the half-court is that they pick and roll everybody, all of those guys can shoot it. They have everyone playing a position bigger than they are, like Amare at the five, and Matrix at the four. … And now, you put Shaq out there, and I just don't see how it works.

"I guess he clogs the middle for them on defense, but you are stripping the identity of this team with him. Plus, what does he have left right now?"

Since Kerr took the Suns job in June, he has considered so many different trade scenarios for Marion. He talked with Minnesota and Boston about a three-way deal that would've brought the Suns Kevin Garnett. He talked with Utah about Andrei Kirilenko and Philadelphia about Samuel Dalembert. To settle on Shaq seems just that – settling.

All along, the Suns believed they had a system that made teams change for them, that ultimately lived and died with the genius of Steve Nash and the go-go teammates. Suddenly, the Suns look so desperate, so unsure of themselves. Maybe this is Kerr and D'Antoni together; maybe this is the president going it alone.

Nevertheless, the message is unmistakable: When it comes to believing they could win a championship with the coach's style, this was a complete cut-and-run on Super Tuesday.

Somehow, this doesn't feel like the Suns are going for it.

It feels like unconditional surrender.

Adrian Wojnarowski is the NBA columnist for Yahoo! Sports. Send Adrian a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

Updated on Wednesday, Feb 6, 2008 5:01 am, EST

Dirkenstien
02-06-2008, 09:20 AM
Considering what the Suns COULD have gotten for Marion, them netting Shaq has to be a best-case scenario for the Mavs.

I would have more feared a Suns team with Garnett, Kirilenko or Dalembert. Defensive guys that are crazy athletic and who can run with the best of them. Instead they get Shaq.

Phew!

Oh, and there is no way we were even considering trading Howard for O'Neal. Cuban isn't stupid.

dude1394
02-06-2008, 10:05 AM
If the Suns are willing to pay the $40 million owed Shaq over the next two years, they never should have traded tough-guy Kurt Thomas to the Seattle SuperSonics. He always did a good job defending Tim Duncan. He rebounded. He made shots. Most of all, he stayed on the floor.

This was what I was thinking, it made no sense to let him go I thought. It appears they want a very solid half-court option that is made for milking clock. Their style puts them in jeopardy of losing at anytime unless they are up a lot, winning to, but losing when they aren't way up.

V2M
02-06-2008, 10:32 AM
It appears they want a very solid half-court option that is made for milking clock.

7 seconds or less...

foglemann
02-06-2008, 10:40 AM
So, lets look at this.

Josh Howard + Filler for Shaq.

Devin + Filler for Kidd.

So, we would have a TRUE 2 year window on their contracts.

Starting 5:

PG: Kidd
SG: Eddie
SF: George
PF: Dirk
C: Shaq

Assuming we still have some of those role players and we don't get any back. I'd be intrigued, for nothing less than just concentrating for 2 years and making it wash away after that. After the 08-09 season, we'd get 40 million??? That would be cool.

NewMexiMav
02-06-2008, 10:53 AM
PG: Kidd
SG: Eddie
SF: George
PF: Dirk
C: Shaq



Would that be the starting lineup for the NBA Mavericks or the Wheelchair Mavericks?

Talk about an old team that could break down at any moment!

DirkFTW
02-06-2008, 11:26 AM
Does anyone know Shaq's career 3 point shooting numbers, and his 40 time?
5% career

Do they make stop watches that run that long?

EDIT: Shaq was a 50% three-point shooter in Orlando during the 95-96 season. I think Mike and Tony might be able to convince Dan that this is feasible.

Hitman
02-06-2008, 11:29 AM
I am so confused by this, and as a basketball fan, I hope it doesn't happen. Wow.

fluid.forty.one
02-06-2008, 11:32 AM
lol Shaq is going to pass out in his first game with the suns. I welcome this trade with open arms.

fluid.forty.one
02-06-2008, 11:34 AM
I dont' really see that as a problem. The problem with having damp before is he did NOT have anyone to guard. Now he does. I don't expect snack will be out-quicking him on a P&R.

But I WOULD expect little stevie to get some pretty wide-open looks from having someone with such a large derričre set a screen.

yeah chum, your argument doesn't make any sense. The only reason we didn't want Damp to play against PHX before was because he can't guard Amare or Diaw. Now he doesn't have to.

He did pretty well against shaq in the miami series. And shaq is even more beat up now.

This is such a stupid trade by the Suns. (and by the time shaqs contract is up, nash is gonna be ollldddd)

Usually Lurkin
02-06-2008, 11:35 AM
Everything is controlled by Stern. Right when Shaq starts to lose his draw, he's put on the team with the biggest playoff rivalry with LA. How much money will everyone make off of that? And the move benefits LA in the matchup!

ShaggyDirk
02-06-2008, 11:36 AM
So, lets look at this.

Josh Howard + Filler for Shaq.

Devin + Filler for Kidd.

So, we would have a TRUE 2 year window on their contracts.

Starting 5:

PG: Kidd
SG: Eddie
SF: George
PF: Dirk
C: Shaq

Assuming we still have some of those role players and we don't get any back. I'd be intrigued, for nothing less than just concentrating for 2 years and making it wash away after that. After the 08-09 season, we'd get 40 million??? That would be cool.

what?!

V2M
02-06-2008, 11:37 AM
The Phoenix Suns have the best record in the Western Conference, a game and a half ahead of their closest rival. They have the best scoring margin in the conference, and the best offensive efficiency in the NBA. They're 8-2 in their past 10 games (while outscoring opponents by nine points per game). And the Suns have a slew of home games coming up because their early schedule was so road-heavy.

In other words, after 48 games they're in as good a position as they've ever been in to win their first conference title since Sir Charles and KJ did it 15 years ago.

And their solution? Blow it up!

The Suns are reportedly in negotiations to trade Shawn Marion -- a man everyone agrees is a vital cog in their attack because of his ability to run opponents into submission from the power forward spot -- for Shaquille O'Neal. (The Suns would include Marcus Banks.)

Good call. Clearly this Nash-Marion-Stoudamire nucleus isn't working out; they've won only 62 and 61 games the two years they were together. This year they were on pace for a meager 58, so I guess they thought it had run its course.

My first reaction to hearing reports about this deal was that I was being Punk'd. After that, I checked the calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1, and verified that the voice on the other end of the phone didn't belong to Orson Welles.

But there was no Ashton Kutcher, no Orson Welles, and the calendar says it's February.

Believe it or not, this is a real, live trade discussion that might actually happen. I'm not sure I've adequately conveyed my shock at this development, but suffice it to say nobody I've talked to finds it even remotely sensible.

Shaq may be the one player who is least capable of thriving in the Suns' system. Run the break? No, thank you. Set a high screen and dive to the cup? Maybe 10 years ago. Space the floor for 3s? Please.

He's 35 and out of shape; at the moment he's also hurt. Even when healthy, he's had difficulty staying out of foul trouble long enough to make an impact. While I'll grant that Shaq can still be an offensive force -- even with his struggles this year his PER is a very solid 18.17 -- he's toasted regularly on defense. And if you thought Marion complained about not getting shots, you ain't heard nothing yet.

Even if you subscribe to the idea that Marion had to go -- there have been mutterings about his attitude for quite a while -- you can't seriously tell me this was the best deal on the table.

While matching his $17 million contract is difficult, the fact that there's only a year and a half left on it means there are partners out there. Just thinking out loud, for instance, you'd think New Jersey would have taken Marion in a heartbeat for Vince Carter or Richard Jefferson, and the Andrei Kirilenko deal that was so heavily discussed before the season also would seem preferable.

Marion, by the way, hadn't let his dissatisfaction and his own offseason trade demand affect his play. His 20.25 PER nearly matches last year's 20.87, and he's made up for a reduction in shots by cutting his turnovers and increasing his assists.

But despite his performance they're trading him for an older, less effective player, and one who could not be more of a square peg in a round hole in their system.

And get this -- the deal will worsen their cap situation, too. Shaq is on the books for two years after this one at $20 million a pop, whereas Marion only has one year left at less money, and may opt out after this season. So in addition to messing up their own team, the Suns will be basically handing Pat Riley a big fat Get Out of Jail Free card.

In short, this deal feels like one of these movie scenes where the lead character has a plan and says, "It's crazy ... but it just might work!"

I'm not sure about the working part, but it's definitely crazy. I'm praying this trade doesn't really happen, because the Suns have been too entertaining for too long to screw up their title chances like this.

John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider.

kg_veteran
02-06-2008, 11:50 AM
I don't believe the reports out of Phoenix that Howard was on the table. That sounds to me like a Phoenix writer trying to justify the trade. What seems more likely to me is a KVH+expirers deal, which Broussard's column seems to suggest.

I don't see this working out well for the Suns.

DirkFTW
02-06-2008, 11:59 AM
I don't believe the reports out of Phoenix that Howard was on the table. That sounds to me like a Phoenix writer trying to justify the trade. What seems more likely to me is a KVH+expirers deal, which Broussard's column seems to suggest.

I don't see this working out well for the Suns.
If so, then the Suns F'ed themselves to keep us from F'ing them. Lovely.

Dirkadirkastan
02-06-2008, 12:02 PM
I would actually be somewhat disappointed. Phoenix/Dallas games have always been some of the most fun games to watch these past few years.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 12:17 PM
Questions: Can the Suns turn around and trade Shaq for someone else? How long would they have to wait to do something like that?

Underdog
02-06-2008, 12:28 PM
So they went from:

Stoudemire/Skinner
Marion/Diaw
Hill/Marion
Bell/Barbosa
Nash/Banks

to:

Shaq/Stoudemire
Stoudemire/Diaw
Hill/Diaw
Bell/Barbosa
Nash/Barbosa

and when Shaq is injured (the playoffs) they look like this:

Stoudemire/Skinner
Diaw/Stoudemire
Hill/Diaw
Bell/Barbosa
Nash/Barbosa


Talk about no depth AND everyone has to play more than one position to make up for it... Not to mention that Hill is injury-prone & Nash has issues with his back spasms... Is it just me, or did the Suns get A LOT older this season? (they're only lacking Danny Glover & Tommy Lee Jones at this point!)

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 12:29 PM
You know one person who is licking his chops right now? Kobe Bryant. I can almost guarantee you that he will personally see to it that the Suns don't make it past the Lakers should they meet in a playoff series. You know Kobe had it with being picked on by Shaq and being told by the media/public that he couldn't succeed without Shaq. He may never admit to it, but you can bet that he is going to be ready for that series, especially now that the Lakers are on equal footing with Phoenix. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kobe average 40+ if such a series occurred.

Nash13
02-06-2008, 12:40 PM
Could the Lakers possibly finish atop of the Pacific division?

Tokey41
02-06-2008, 12:42 PM
The only downside which has always been a downside when it occurs... is Dirk having to guard Amare at certain times. With Shaq there, Dirk would have to guard Amare ALL the time with our centers already occupied.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 12:42 PM
The only downside which has always been a downside when it occurs... is Dirk having to guard Amare at certain times. With Shaq there, Dirk would have to guard Amare ALL the time with our centers already occupied.

Was Dirk so great against Marion? What's changing here?

horse900703
02-06-2008, 12:45 PM
OMG!!!!
bad for the Suns!!!

Dtownsfinest
02-06-2008, 01:24 PM
I like this deal for the Suns. Suns are fast paced but we all know the game slows down a bit when the playoffs come around. We may not see how much they benefit from Shaq's presence until the post season comes around. Its a good deal for the Suns. Marion was unhappy and i'm sure at this point his teammates are about sick of hearing how underrated he is as I am. Why not make a move for shaq? I give the Suns credit for making this deal even though they have the best record in the league. Shaq gives them a legit big man. I can see him giving them a solid 25-28 minutes a night. That' s a deal worth making. Even on his last legs Shaq is still one of the best 5's in the game and with Nash's passing ability I can only imagine its going to make him more effective. I wouldn't right the Suns off yet. Marion is a terrific player but losing him doesn't do much for a Suns team that's been trying to find more minutes for Diaw and Barbosa.

jthig32
02-06-2008, 01:29 PM
Could the Lakers possibly finish atop of the Pacific division?

Personally, I would be shocked if they didn't, assuming this trade goes through.

Five-ofan
02-06-2008, 01:29 PM
everyone thats saying dirk is going to have to guard amare i dont think so. I think we will see the mavs go big quite a bit with dirk guarding grant hill. i think we will see the mavs run this lineup out there quite a bit

harris
josh
bass
dirk
dampier/diop

Windmill360
02-06-2008, 01:30 PM
how many games has snaq sat out this season?

Underdog
02-06-2008, 01:43 PM
how many games has snaq sat out this season?


I know he just missed two weeks because of a bum hip...

(how bad is that? my GRANDPA missed 2 weeks of work due to a bum hip when he was 64!)

:rolleyes:

Flacolaco
02-06-2008, 01:49 PM
http://bp0.blogger.com/_d8bF7KBsmHI/RoBcU-knYqI/AAAAAAAAAeE/pVH8aTA5VpU/s400/shaqlite.jpg

skylive321
02-06-2008, 02:05 PM
Panic among Phoenix Suns fans forums about the Shaq for Marion trade, and I thought i outta share my laughs with you guys. It rings panic among the Suns Fandom and as a mav fanatic, im loving it:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- so everyone wants a big man huh? well had anyone else read this crap about SHAQ COMIN TO PHOENIX FOR MARION AND DIAW!?!?!?!?!?? i read it in this other site called hoopsworld.com in the little rumors part and its retarded. heres the link, talk amongst yourselves. http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?STORY_ID=7241

- if this happened.....wow i dont even wanna talk about it.

- Suns Dont Need Shaq! Why? Trade For Camby, Bosh Or Howard Not Shaq! This Deal Sucks! Why Do We Even Need To Make A Trade 34-14! Best Record In The West And Playing Like Crap Too! We Just Need A Bigman To Rebound And Block Shots Thats It. BRING KURT BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- What the hell is Steve Kerr thinking... does he really think that a 36 year old Shaq will be able to stay on the court?? This trade would essentially hand the Lakers the Western Conference

- The Suns are dead. We Funeral services will be at US Airways Center at 7:00 tonight

I would really like to know who made this deal Sarver or Kerr which ever one it waas i think they need to be the one to leave which ever one it was just may have lost hope for an NBA championship. There is so much morte out there that we could of got for Marion even though i think we should of kept him. THANKS ALOT SARVER KERR FOR RUINING THE SUNS

Windmill360
02-06-2008, 02:08 PM
Lakers v Suns ESPN Feb 20

Underdog
02-06-2008, 02:13 PM
- The Suns are dead. We Funeral services will be at US Airways Center at 7:00 tonight

That one is my favorite...

Dirkenstien
02-06-2008, 02:25 PM
I don't believe the reports out of Phoenix that Howard was on the table. That sounds to me like a Phoenix writer trying to justify the trade. What seems more likely to me is a KVH+expirers deal, which Broussard's column seems to suggest.

I don't see this working out well for the Suns.


I agree. There is no way we were going to do that deal. KVH's contract and filler is most likely all that we were offering.

The one guy I feared most in Phoenix was Marion. He can guard anyone, play any position, he's usually the most athletic guy on the floor, and he has a knack for pumping up the crowd and shifting momentum with his thunderous high-flying dunks. He and Nash were a tremendous fast-break combination. I'm glad we don't have to deal with that anymore.

Now Nash gets an aging overweight injury prone Center who can barely get his feet off the floor.

Oh and yeah I almost forgot about Shaq calling Nash's MVP awards TAINTED! Yeah, this will be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
Link: http://deadspin.com/sports/shaquille-o.neal/shaq-on-taint-239430.php

bernardos70
02-06-2008, 02:28 PM
Recent Career:
Shaq
2005-06: 59 games played
2006-07: 40 games played
2007-08: 32 games played of 46 Heat games


Matrix
2005-06: 81 games played
2006-07: 80 games played
2007-08: 47 games played of 48 Suns games

Underdog
02-06-2008, 02:31 PM
Oh and yeah I almost forgot about Shaq calling Nash's MVP awards TAINTED! Yeah, this will be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.


...and here I was worrying about him calling Damp "Ericka" if he came to Dallas!

minkbarn
02-06-2008, 02:32 PM
I disagree. This is a trade designed to counter the Lakers. If Shaq gets healthy it works.

The Celtics kicked the Lakers butts twice this year because they outmuscled the LA frontline. Shaq and Amare are a huge powerful duo. Amare will be an impossible match up for Gasol or Odom. The entire LA frontcourt will be in chronic foul trouble when these teams play.

You can't outrun the Lakers, you have to push them off the spot.

This is all dependent on Shaq having a little left in the tank. O'Neal's not going to be playing 40 minutes. He'll play in spots and be used in match up situations.

Phoenix will run when Shaq is out, and pound it down low when he's in.

I also think it further forces Dallas to make a deal.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 02:35 PM
I disagree. This is a trade designed to counter the Lakers. If Shaq gets healthy it works.


What if they don't play the Lakers?

Does this beat San Antonio?

skylive321
02-06-2008, 02:37 PM
I disagree. This is a trade designed to counter the Lakers. If Shaq gets healthy it works.

The Celtics kicked the Lakers butts twice this year because they outmuscled the LA frontline. Shaq and Amare are a huge powerful duo. Amare will be an impossible match up for Gasol or Odom. The entire LA frontcourt will be in chronic foul trouble when these teams play.

You can't outrun the Lakers, you have to push them off the spot.

This is all dependent on Shaq having a little left in the tank. O'Neal's not going to be playing 40 minutes. He'll play in spots and be used in match up situations.

Phoenix will run when Shaq is out, and pound it down low when he's in.

I also think it further forces Dallas to make a deal.


you don't build your team to beat only one team... example : mavs overreaction about playoff exit and people calling for us to build to match golden states. where are Golden state jailbirds today as far as record?

minkbarn
02-06-2008, 02:39 PM
It's not just one team, but I think it was a reaction to the LA deal. The Suns now match up better against San Antonio and Dallas too.

They can play two styles now instead of one (again- providing Shaq gets healthy).

Dirkadirkastan
02-06-2008, 02:40 PM
Link: http://deadspin.com/sports/shaquille-o.neal/shaq-on-taint-239430.php

and with Dwyane Wade's shoulder having been destroyed at the hands of the vicious Shane Battier,

Right!

Underdog
02-06-2008, 02:40 PM
you don't build your team to beat only one team... example : mavs overreaction about playoff exit and people calling for us to build to match golden states. where are Golden state jailbirds today as far as record?


Very true - people were calling for us to blow up this team after that series... All we did was get Bass & now we're 2-0 against a team we hadn't beaten in the regular season for the past few years...

The harder the knee jerks, the more it hurts...

Windmill360
02-06-2008, 02:45 PM
Lets pull Vlade out of retirement to counter the Suns and Lakers.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 02:46 PM
The Suns now match up better against San Antonio and Dallas too.

(again- providing Shaq gets healthy).


If the first sentence depends on the second sentence, then I'm not too worried... How does he get healthier as he gets older? It's not like he has a torn ligament - his problem is in his joints (and it's a fairly-well documented fact that cartilage in the joints doesn't regenterate...)

Factor in his size/weight and Father Time can be pretty unforgiving...

skylive321
02-06-2008, 02:50 PM
If the first sentence depends on the second sentence, then I'm not too worried... How does he get healthier as he gets older? It's not like he has a torn ligament - his problem is in his joints (and it's a fairly-well documented fact that cartilage in the joints doesn't regenterate...)

Factor in his size/weight and Father Time can be pretty unforgiving...

Chuckled a bit there...Something I feel like I learn everyday.

minkbarn
02-06-2008, 02:52 PM
If the first sentence depends on the second sentence, then I'm not too worried... How does he get healthier as he gets older? It's not like he has a torn ligament - his problem is in his joints (and it's a fairly-well documented fact that cartilage in the joints doesn't regenterate...)

Factor in his size/weight and Father Time can be pretty unforgiving...

You could be right, but there's a decent chance it's just the temporary hip injury and not being in shape that's kept Shaq from playing well.

I'm not a Suns or Dallas fan, so I have no bias in this. It's just how I see it:

At times Phoenix needs to be able to go strong instead of fast. Shaq allows them to do it if he can play. As you point out, the IF has yet to be determined.

Still, Dallas has to do something IF this works out. They can't go into the playoffs as they are if Phoenix and LA have improved a lot. Don't you think?

DelNegro
02-06-2008, 02:54 PM
The Suns now match up better against San Antonio and Dallas too.

Really? Marion guarded everyone from Parker to Duncan to Dirk. Amare can't guard Duncan, Shaq can't anymore, and Raja Bell can't guard Manu and Parker at the same time. Versus the Mavs, I'm pretty sure they feel pretty good about Dirk's chances versus Hill, Amare or whoever else Dantoni tries guarding him with. Both the Spurs and Mavs have plenty of big bodies to throw at Shaq & Amare and both can space the floor forcing either Shaq or Amare to have to follow a 3 point shooting big man outside the paint.

I don't think this deal helps the Suns against either team.

Usually Lurkin
02-06-2008, 02:55 PM
At times Phoenix needs to be able to go strong instead of fast. Shaq allows them to do it if he can play. As you point out, the IF has yet to be determined.
I think the bigger question is what is "at times?" and how usefull is Shaq for the rest of the time? Did they give up Marion for Shaq the situational role player?

minkbarn
02-06-2008, 02:56 PM
Also, the Suns surely aren't thinking they're getting Shaq from 5 years ago. I read somewhere that he'll be used like the Celtics used Bill Walton in 1986- in spot duty against the right match ups, not playing huge minutes.

It's a very risky but fascinating deal.

skylive321
02-06-2008, 02:59 PM
Also, the Suns surely aren't thinking they're getting Shaq from 5 years ago. I read somewhere that he'll be used like the Celtics used Bill Walton in 1986- in spot duty against the right match ups, not playing huge minutes.

It's a very risky but fascinating deal.


just to entertain my curiosity.. what team do you support minkbarn?

Underdog
02-06-2008, 03:00 PM
You could be right, but there's a decent chance it's just the temporary hip injury and not being in shape that's kept Shaq from playing well.

I'm not a Suns or Dallas fan, so I have no bias in this. It's just how I see it:

At times Phoenix needs to be able to go strong instead of fast. Shaq allows them to do it if he can play. As you point out, the IF has yet to be determined.

Still, Dallas has to do something IF this works out. They can't go into the playoffs as they are if Phoenix and LA have improved a lot. Don't you think?


Not really - I think Gasol & Shaq were acquired so each team could beat each other...

Gasol doesn't scare me because if Dirk could ever be accused of being "soft" then Gasol is the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man... As long as Kobe doesn't go off for 62 points then we'll still beat the Lakers (no different than before they acquired Gasol...)

And Shaq? I'll believe that he'll improve Phoenix when I see it - he obviously can't keep up with the run-and-gun, so it's a matter of whether or not the Suns can actually play half-court basketball... Damp matches up better with Shaq than he did against Stoudemire & Stoudemire matching up against Dirk isn't any different than Marion matching up against Dirk - he can't cover either of them, but somehow we keep beating the Suns...

Usually Lurkin
02-06-2008, 03:01 PM
Lakers v Suns ESPN Feb 20
I can't for the life of me really figure out how this helps the Suns. Surely Kerr can't be thinking that this one trade will turn the entire team into a useful traditional half-court style? That's just weird. It'd be crazy if it worked out, but that would just be crazy.

This, the tv ratings, is where there is definite benefit, the Lakers and Stern's league became that much more exciting with the potential new-Lakers versus Shaq's new team. But surely the Suns were doing alright already in the marketing department, right? Either this is the back-end of a deal that netted the Suns 2 MVP awards, or we can expect high lottery picks to work their way into Phoenix in some freakish fashion.

minkbarn
02-06-2008, 03:02 PM
"just to entertain my curiosity.. what team do you support minkbarn?"

The Celtics.

My thoughts on them: They have a chance at a title. They're one of about seven teams who do.

I really like the play of both the Suns and Mavs and hope both crush the evil Lakers.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 03:04 PM
The Celtics.


For how long?

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 03:05 PM
Also, the Suns surely aren't thinking they're getting Shaq from 5 years ago. I read somewhere that he'll be used like the Celtics used Bill Walton in 1986- in spot duty against the right match ups, not playing huge minutes.

It's a very risky but fascinating deal.

You are right. It's fascinating that the Suns would kill their playoff chances in a panic move. Like someone said earlier, it's going to be comical watching the Suns try to match up against Dirk now. I don't know who on that team has a shot in hell of guarding him.

dude1394
02-06-2008, 03:06 PM
how many games has snaq sat out this season?

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shaquille_oneal/index.html

skylive321
02-06-2008, 03:07 PM
"just to entertain my curiosity.. what team do you support minkbarn?"

The Celtics.

My thoughts on them: They have a chance at a title. They're one of about seven teams who do.

I really like the play of both the Suns and Mavs and hope both crush the evil Lakers.
really, even through that disgusting streak they had last year.. spanning 18 games... with delonte west and the rest of that group.. or are you what we call around here A Fair Weather Fan?

minkbarn
02-06-2008, 03:08 PM
For how long?

Since Sam Jones and Bill Russell were playing with your old coach, Don Nelson. (Nelson wasn't fast or strong, but he could play.)

thereaper
02-06-2008, 03:11 PM
It's not just one team, but I think it was a reaction to the LA deal. The Suns now match up better against San Antonio and Dallas too.

They can play two styles now instead of one (again- providing Shaq gets healthy).

Yeah but theira was the style that teams had troubles matching up with, even to some extent Dallas. Do you honestly believe the Mavs will have as much trouble matching up with Shaq as opposed to Marion?

The Mavs should matchup much better with the Suns now, assuming Shaq is on the floor of course.

skylive321
02-06-2008, 03:12 PM
Since Sam Jones and Bill Russell were playing with your old coach, Don Nelson. (Nelson wasn't fast or strong, but he could play.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bewek4DUNGE

you'd love this then

minkbarn
02-06-2008, 03:14 PM
really, even through that disgusting streak they had last year.. spanning 18 games... with delonte west and the rest of that group.. or are you what we call around here A Fair Weather Fan?


Oddly, I liked that team. They were injured, inexperienced, and tanking; but they had a lot of good developing talent. I hated the Pitino teams, and didn't care for O'Brien's style even though he had some limited success. But I saw every minute of those 18 games, and even found some things to be happy about through it.

thereaper
02-06-2008, 03:14 PM
Also, the Suns surely aren't thinking they're getting Shaq from 5 years ago. I read somewhere that he'll be used like the Celtics used Bill Walton in 1986- in spot duty against the right match ups, not playing huge minutes.

It's a very risky but fascinating deal.

I'd call trading one of your core players away for a spot duty player more than risky.

minkbarn
02-06-2008, 03:21 PM
I'd call trading one of your core players away for a spot duty player more than risky.

That's why I brought up the Bill Walton comparison. The Celtics traded a core player, Cedric Maxwell, who was at least as good as Marion for old brittle Walton.

I think the Suns have had it with Marion for behind-the-scenes reasons. A lot of that was hinted at when Boston was trying to get Marion before they acquired Garnett. (He nixed the deal.)

But yeah the trade is really risky. I'm not trying to say it will work, just that it might work and trying to figure out what Phoenix is thinking.

dirt_dobber
02-06-2008, 04:12 PM
My take on this ......

Shaq will play one year for the Suns while having 2 years left on his contract....
then "somehow" have a career ending injury where after missing the
required 40 games the insurance will pick up his remaining salary for
the Suns next year in the 2008-2009 season

You heard it here first.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 04:29 PM
Questions: Can the Suns turn around and trade Shaq for someone else? How long would they have to wait to do something like that?


Does anyone have an answer to this question?

AxdemxO
02-06-2008, 04:32 PM
So Not one person in this thread thinks Nash is good enough to run a half court offense????
Or that the Suns can actually slow down their game and then run when they get the chance??

Underdog
02-06-2008, 04:39 PM
So Not one person in this thread thinks Nash is good enough to run a half court offense????
Or that the Suns can actually slow down their game and then run when they get the chance??


Sure Nash could run a half court, but it's not his forte like the run-and-gun... Plus, D'Antoni hasn't showed me anything that makes me think he can coach that style (but to be fair - he hasn't really tried...)

I just think it's best for a team to stick with its strengths, and nobody plays full court basketball better than the Suns...

MavsX
02-06-2008, 04:39 PM
well i guess this makes the west, and the nba in general quite interesting...

u2sarajevo
02-06-2008, 04:56 PM
I was hoping no one had posted this yet......

THEY ARE SELLING SHAQ ROAD AND HOME JERSEYS ON THE SUNS WEBSITE ALREADY....
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/262/shaqphxvc9.png

Flacolaco
02-06-2008, 04:57 PM
That is the best thing I've ever seen.

MFFL
02-06-2008, 04:59 PM
That's why I brought up the Bill Walton comparison. The Celtics traded a core player, Cedric Maxwell, who was at least as good as Marion for old brittle Walton.

And the Celtics won the championship that year.

Dr.Zoidberg
02-06-2008, 05:04 PM
Did Mavs dangle Howard for Shaq?

If you read a previous post that listed the Arizona Republic as one of two outlets to report that the Mavs put a deal together for Shaq that included Josh Howard, scratch the Republic.

According to Suns beat writer Paul Coro, he eliminated the sentence about Howard from his print report and was disappointed to learn it was still included in the online version.

Often times newspapers are dealing with two entities, the print side and the online side and when something changes on one side, it unfortunately sometimes doesn't get communicated in time to the other side.

So now veteran NBA scribe Sam Smith of the Chicago Tribune has the lone report suggesting that Cuban was pushing for Shaq by dangling Howard.

I have a hard time believing it. The Mavs have been adamant about not trading Howard and Cuban has been steadfast in declaring the Mavs have no plans to make a move, especially one that makes no sense financially, or on the court, frankly.

-- Jeff Caplan

Link (http://startelegram.typepad.com/mavs_fullcourt_press/2008/02/did-mavs-dangle.html)Thanks that such a deal didn´t go down.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 05:10 PM
well i guess this makes the west, and the nba in general quite interesting...

Mr. Stern agrees...
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/acidkidd/stern.jpg

Dirkadirkastan
02-06-2008, 05:10 PM
That is the best thing I've ever seen.

Beat me to it.

AxdemxO
02-06-2008, 05:11 PM
SOOO ITS OFFICIAL

Unlike some on here who like to deny things I think the Suns are more dangerous with Shaq, not because of what he will do for them by himself, but because of what Nash will do for Shaq.

I think the Mavs will need to make a move...So many teams were good to begin with and now 2 of them have just improved even more.

Dtownsfinest
02-06-2008, 05:12 PM
So Not one person in this thread thinks Nash is good enough to run a half court offense????
Or that the Suns can actually slow down their game and then run when they get the chance??


Yea i'm not sure why people think the Suns can't run a half court offense. Especially when Shaq is on the floor. Suns fans are livid I guess but if I were a Suns fan i'd like the move. It makes the Suns a real contender. That starting Marion at the 4 spot was not gonna get them anymore and it was hurting Diaw's development. They are going to be hell with Shaq and Amare in the paint together. They no longer have to rely on Amare's defense at the 5 spot which was atrocious.


SOOO ITS OFFICIAL

Unlike soem on here who like to deny things I think the Suns are more dangerous with Shaq, not because of what he will do for them by himself, but because of what Nash will do for Shaq.

I think the Mavs will need to make a move...So many teams were good to begin with and now 2 of them have just improved even more.

Mavs will probably not make a move because they "like their team". It has to say something though when the best team in the West makes a trade to improve their chances at winning a championship. The West just got better and most will dismiss this move and I would too if Shaq wasn't going to a team with Steve Nash on it who can make Quetin Rcihardson, Shawn Marion and Boris Diaw look like all stars.

AxdemxO
02-06-2008, 05:20 PM
There are 2 teams in the West and 2 in the east that are clearly ahead of us at this point IMO
Suns and Lakers
Boston and Detroit

I think we can beat any other team, I dont like our chances against these 4 teams unless we do something

endrity
02-06-2008, 05:25 PM
Shaq can still help the suns. As many people have said, they don't run a 5man fast break. Even a semi-healthy Shaq would give a lot of team fits. Imagine having to cover him and Amare. And while Shaq seems to have been a little disappointing throughout his career on the boards, his presence alone will make it tougher to get the offensive boards people got on the Suns.

The main issue will be how they run their half court O. It's not that the Suns can't, in fact they did so very well even before. The problem is that with Shaq, much of that spacing that they really loved is gone. Dan Tony waited until the last minute always to put Kurt thomas in. And then how do you play with Shaq now? Do you use him in pick and rolls? Doubtful. Do you throw the ball to him in the low post? Most likely, but then how do the other players adjust to that? This is still no slam dunk, but I understand Kerr's thinking here. Nash's and Shaq's contract expire at the same time. Why not try to win it like this, since they were not beating the Spurs before anyway, as the last contest clearely showed. And then in 2010, with Amare, Diaw and Barbosa in their primes you try to lure one more of the many exceptional FAs that will be available and try to rebuild around them.

Dtownsfinest
02-06-2008, 05:25 PM
Honestly I think in the West the Mavs could possibly be a 1st round exit again. Not because of what the Mavs have done but because the West is just that deep. A playoff contender might miss out on a playoff berth this year. That's how deep the West is. I don't think its the Mavs not wanting to do a trade. I think its they are short changing teams. Wanting to give up a little to recieve a lot in return. The Mavs want Kidd but don't want to part with anyone named Dirk, Josh or JET.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 05:25 PM
There are 2 teams in the West and 2 in the east that are clearly ahead of us at this point IMO
Suns and Lakers
Boston and Detroit

I think we can beat any other team, I dont like our chances against these 4 teams unless we do something


What if we moved the Mavs to Oklahoma City? Then they wouldn't be our problem anymore!

(hey, we've kicked around the ideas of getting rid of Avery, Dirk, Josh, Devin, Damp, JET, Bass, Diop, Stack, George, Jones, Hassell, JuHo, JJB, Ager, and Fazekas - I thought I'd take us in a new direction...)

Underdog
02-06-2008, 05:27 PM
It's no coincidence that the people who think the Mavs are "fatally flawed" also think that Shaq to Phoenix is a good move...

Maybe all the haters around here should find another team to root for?

Dtownsfinest
02-06-2008, 05:28 PM
Shaq can still help the suns. As many people have said, they don't run a 5man fast break. Even a semi-healthy Shaq would give a lot of team fits. Imagine having to cover him and Amare. And while Shaq seems to have been a little disappointing throughout his career on the boards, his presence alone will make it tougher to get the offensive boards people got on the Suns.

The main issue will be how they run their half court O. It's not that the Suns can't, in fact they did so very well even before. The problem is that with Shaq, much of that spacing that they really loved is gone. Dan Tony waited until the last minute always to put Kurt thomas in. And then how do you play with Shaq now? Do you use him in pick and rolls? Doubtful. Do you throw the ball to him in the low post? Most likely, but then how do the other players adjust to that? This is still no slam dunk, but I understand Kerr's thinking here. Nash's and Shaq's contract expire at the same time. Why not try to win it like this, since they were not beating the Spurs before anyway, as the last contest clearely showed. And then in 2010, with Amare, Diaw and Barbosa in their primes you try to lure one more of the many exceptional FAs that will be available and try to rebuild around them.

Yea I agree. I think what really made Kerr pull the trigger was Nash's age. I think he understands that he doesn't have forever to win a title.He has a core of solid young guys in barbosa, Amare and Diaw who will just keep getting better. Now he has experience with Grant Hill, Nash and Shaq which will be needed in the post season to stop from making dumb mistakes like gettting suspended for a game because they stepped on the court during a fight. Marion's presence will be pissed because he's one of the best all around players in the game. Doesn't even really have a weakness to his game. But the suns were going nowhere with him and his attitude. All he was going to do was become a cancer for that team.

Dtownsfinest
02-06-2008, 05:30 PM
It's no coincidence that the people who think the Mavs are "fatally flawed" also think that Shaq to Phoenix is a good move...

Maybe all the haters around here should find another team to root for?


Its not about the ateam being flawed. Its about this is the same team that has had two historic collapses in back to back seasons. I'm in love with this team just like the next but i'm also not blind to see others in the West are atleaste attemping to get better while the Mavs standing pat.

MFFL
02-06-2008, 05:30 PM
edit

AxdemxO
02-06-2008, 05:41 PM
It's no coincidence that the people who think the Mavs are "fatally flawed" also think that Shaq to Phoenix is a good move...

Maybe all the haters around here should find another team to root for?

Its called being realistic. I am sure you wont find any Bucks fans saying they will win it all this year...and if you do then you should hang out with them because you have the same thinking process. IT doesn't mean tht because I am a Mavs fan I have to be unrealistic and say they are the best team in the NBA. Do I think they have a chance to win it all YES, but it just got a lot lot harder

minkbarn
02-06-2008, 06:02 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bewek4DUNGE

you'd love this then

Thanks, That really warmed my heart.

Personally I love that mid 70's team the most of all of them. Cowens, Havlicek, Jo Jo, Chaney, Nelson, Silas, etc. They ran like the current Suns, but were better because they played fierce defense too. Cowens was ferocious.

They had two bench guys with great nicknames: "High" Henry Finkel who tried hard but was really there only because he was tall, and Art "Hambone" Williams; a speedy little uptempo back up point who had many a fierce second unit battle against Dean "The Dream" Meminger of the Knicks.

Tommy Heinsohn was a fantastic coach. That was the smallest team in the league and they just used to destroy the opposition. They would have won 3 titles if not for a Havlicek shoulder separation in the playoffs the year they won 68.

They ran off free throws and made baskets. Havlicek never stopped sprinting. They were great.

Five-ofan
02-06-2008, 06:05 PM
Mavs will probably not make a move because they "like their team". It has to say something though when the best team in the West makes a trade to improve their chances at winning a championship. The West just got better and most will dismiss this move and I would too if Shaq wasn't going to a team with Steve Nash on it who can make Quetin Rcihardson, Shawn Marion and Boris Diaw look like all stars.
why are people so content to make themselves look so ignorant as to say that nash made marion look like an all star? marion was an all star before nash and probably will be again.

purplefrog
02-06-2008, 06:14 PM
Thanks, That really warmed my heart.

Personally I love that mid 70's team the most of all of them. Cowens, Havlicek, Jo Jo, Chaney, Nelson, Silas, etc. They ran like the current Suns, but were better because they played fierce defense too. Cowens was ferocious.

They had two bench guys with great nicknames: "High" Henry Finkel who tried hard but was really there only because he was tall, and Art "Hambone" Williams; a speedy little uptempo back up point who had many a fierce second unit battle against Dean "The Dream" Meminger of the Knicks.

Tommy Heinsohn was a fantastic coach. That was the smallest team in the league and they just used to destroy the opposition. They would have won 3 titles if not for a Havlicek shoulder separation in the playoffs the year they won 68.

They ran off free throws and made baskets. Havlicek never stopped sprinting. They were great.

Fond memories of those Celtics.....I loved it when Hank Finkel entered the game. Fun to watch.

skylive321
02-06-2008, 06:15 PM
Thanks, That really warmed my heart.

Personally I love that mid 70's team the most of all of them. Cowens, Havlicek, Jo Jo, Chaney, Nelson, Silas, etc. They ran like the current Suns, but were better because they played fierce defense too. Cowens was ferocious.

They had two bench guys with great nicknames: "High" Henry Finkel who tried hard but was really there only because he was tall, and Art "Hambone" Williams; a speedy little uptempo back up point who had many a fierce second unit battle against Dean "The Dream" Meminger of the Knicks.

Tommy Heinsohn was a fantastic coach. That was the smallest team in the league and they just used to destroy the opposition. They would have won 3 titles if not for a Havlicek shoulder separation in the playoffs the year they won 68.

They ran off free throws and made baskets. Havlicek never stopped sprinting. They were great.
thought you might have appreciated that.

endrity
02-06-2008, 06:30 PM
It's now official. Shaq has been traded to the Suns for Marion and Banks.

Janett_Reno
02-06-2008, 06:38 PM
If Shaq is atleast 50% they will be a better playoff team. They better keep him so healthy in the playoffs. I have always said untill the Suns get a center and a man to stand his ground in the painted area, in a half court set to play defense they will never beat the Spurs in the playoffs(never). This is a big "if" if Shaq is 50% healthy at playoff time and the other Suns can play some half court or get a lead and let Shaq defend your paint inthe 4th, the Suns now have a chance against the Spurs in a series.

One thing people do not understand, is how many rebounds, the defense Marion played as he was a terror on Dirk at times and him scorring and he also scorred paint points. Do they have a man on that team that can take his place and do just half as much and i think the guy they got from Johnson could be and will get a chance. Your Suns backline will be huge with Amare, Shaq, Diaw and the best pg in the league. That is a block wall in the paint and now Duncan is going to have huge problems, Gino and Parker can't charge down the lane everytime now. Kobe won't dunk on them every play now.

This helps Dirk not being guarded by Marion and Marion was bad on us alot of times. I give Dirk alot of credit also as he had turned the tables on Marion and was getting the best of him also at times. Risky is Shaq and if he can play anymore and getting rid of Marion for nothing but a 50% Shaq, they are now a better playoff team. Count them in now and the Lakers, Spurs or Mavs won't walk over them "if" Shaq can play. That is four really good teams and anything can happen now. I pick all four about even if "Shaq" plays. I will give the benefit to Nash and say he can play full or half court because of how smart he is.

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 07:01 PM
I'll reiterate--I think this trade helps the Suns in their matchup with the Spurs, and hurts them in their matchup with the Mavs.

Given that, I can't really blame them for making the trade. The Spurs are the team you need to be able to beat. The west goes through them. It's the same way the Mavs have approached building their roster.

AxdemxO
02-06-2008, 07:09 PM
I'll reiterate--I think this trade helps the Suns in their matchup with the Spurs, and hurts them in their matchup with the Mavs.

Given that, I can't really blame them for making the trade. The Spurs are the team you need to be able to beat. The west goes through them. It's the same way the Mavs have approached building their roster.
Yea but with the way teams are improving now...the Suns mite not have to worry about the Mavs. And they can still throw out Amare, Diaw, Hill, Bell, and Nash against us and run us to death. Shaq doesnt even have to be in the game.

Dirkadirkastan
02-06-2008, 07:18 PM
Why does everyone have to be so f@%&ing scared of the Suns? If anything, Dallas and Phoenix have been evenly matched, and today they just got worse.

Janett_Reno
02-06-2008, 07:26 PM
I agree with Prodigy. Nash not young, Hill not young, Amare young and strong but has had injury, Shaq not young and the team you must go thru is the Spurs. It has been so hard for Amare and Marion to stop Duncan, Gino and Parker at the rim all night long and then stop a steady diet of Duncan the last two mins. I am talking in playoffs. This was strictly a move to get past the Spurs.

This wasn't a move to get past us. The only bad thing i can see against Phx, is the coaches might get smart and this is Dallas, GS, Denver, Lakers, Spurs and when Shaq is on the court, say ok guys let's run the Suns. It is like teams taking Diop and Dampier out of the game and Avery going small. I can see this a prob with Shaq ready to pass out. Then if you run them, Marion was one of the best runners in the game. Teams will treat them differ but it is interesting. Makes it for a very interesting playoffs and anybody could win. The Spurs have not got a free ticket this time. Mavs, Lakers, Suns, Jazz and possibly Nugs are all threats.

Underdog
02-06-2008, 07:31 PM
Who says the Suns just got better?

I'll have to wait & see before I piss my pants...


Which statement is more debatable:

Gasol for garbage = better Lakers

Shaq for Marion = better Suns

Janett_Reno
02-06-2008, 07:32 PM
Nobody was scarred of Phx in the playoffs. No defense and run and gun loses in playoffs. No bigs in the middle loses in the playoffs. Why it is concerns now is Shaq is a brick wall. Him and Amare with diaq are 2 1/2 brick walls. No layups anymore against them in playoffs. Duncan won't dominate them as much. This is if Shaq is atleast 50% and he can play about half the game.

Kerr has now said i care about the playoffs. I will admit it is a weird situation, a run and gun team and a slow down Shaq but gettig rid of marion, that was one of the best runners in the game. They are not going to run as much and be more playoff oriented i feel. Run some but not all game.

It just isn't the Suns to worry about, it's the Spurs, Lakers, Jazz and possibly Nugs. Mavs are also very good. It is a shootout now and the west is good.

Natte
02-06-2008, 07:39 PM
Kerr said at the press conference that they were not done dealing yet. They are after a wing defender and a shooter, and they would make another deal next week.

Five-ofan
02-06-2008, 07:46 PM
Yea but with the way teams are improving now...the Suns mite not have to worry about the Mavs. And they can still throw out Amare, Diaw, Hill, Bell, and Nash against us and run us to death. Shaq doesnt even have to be in the game.
they are gonna run us to death for 48 minutes with 5 players? good luck with that. not to mention neither of diaw or hill comes close to marion in the open court. marion was a freakishly great athlete.

the biggest thing about this that they will miss is that marion played 40 minutes a night and never got tired while playing with limitless energy. the guys cardio was freakish. Id like to know where they are planning on picking up those minutes.

as for the mavs, we match up GREAT with phoenix now.

shaq-damp
amare-bass(he should be as equipped as anyone to guard him with some help from diop)
hill-dirk
bell-josh
harris-nash
none of those matchups really scare me.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 07:52 PM
Why does everyone have to be so f@%&ing scared of the Suns? If anything, Dallas and Phoenix have been evenly matched, and today they just got worse.Maybe some people don't agree with you?

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 07:55 PM
as for the mavs, we match up GREAT with phoenix now.

shaq-damp
amare-bass(he should be as equipped as anyone to guard him with some help from diop)
hill-dirk
bell-josh
harris-nash
none of those matchups really scare me.Bass-Amare doesn't scare you? I bet it would scare coach Johnson if we met them in the playoffs.

kingmalaki
02-06-2008, 08:02 PM
I like the trade for Phoenix because they weren't going to win with Marion. When the playoffs roll around, Marion really can't contain anyone on the top teams in the West. He can't hold Dirk or Josh, Manu or Duncan, or Odom (who always plays well against them in the playoffs) or Gasol. The Suns keep getting knocked out of the playoffs because teams kill them on the interior. This move prevents that. Granted, Shaq is not what he used to be...but as far as a physical presence there are only 3 dudes in the league like him (Yao, Howard and Duncan). You still have to put a body on Shaq and he is still hitting damn near 60% of his shots.

I don't know why folks think the Suns won't still be able to run. Your center isn't supposed to run...they grab boards and start the break with outlet passes. Shaq can do that. Nash, Hill, Diaw, Amare and Barbosa can still run. If the break doesn't work then he can post, like we do with Yao now. The main difference will be their PG doesn't shoot 40% and their PF isn't a 6-5 ex CBA/NBDL player.

If they can convince Shaq to be the 2008 version of David Robinson from those early 2000 teams then this could work. Either way it wasn't gonna work with Marion.

And man, did the Heat come out like champs or what? They took on the risk of Shaq getting old on them, made two ECF trips and got one ring, and rid of him for Marion or cap space to rebuild. Nice....

Edit: Oh, and someone says teams can't make wholesale changed during midseason and expect to win? I don't think we have that many examples but we do have a few success stories. Detroit traded for Sheed and that put them over the top (not a wholesale change in philosophy though). My Rockets did a complete 360 when they traded Thorpe for Drexler in midseason and it worked out. Every other team that I can think of was pretty intact from start to finish.

Burn this City
02-06-2008, 08:04 PM
This trade would've bothered me about 3 years ago....

Five-ofan
02-06-2008, 08:18 PM
Bass-Amare doesn't scare you? I bet it would scare coach Johnson if we met them in the playoffs.
not anywhere near as much as hill-dirk would scare me if i was them.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 08:22 PM
I love Dirk, but I don't really see where you are coming from. Amare can be pretty much unstoppable. (At least he has been against us in the past.) He plays a WAY different style than Dirk does. Dirk's just not that flavor of unstoppable--or at least, he hasn't been in the last two or three playoffs.

I know that it's never as simple as this, but if you told me the series would come down to those individual matchups, and which one did I want...well, Amare against Bass would look pretty tasty to me.

Dirkadirkastan
02-06-2008, 08:29 PM
Maybe some people don't agree with you?

Ha! I'm still curious as to what their reasons are.

MavsX
02-06-2008, 08:31 PM
well its official. If i could find that "teams i hate most" thread..i would now list the phoenix suns...

i never really hated them....but now that shaq is a sun..i hate them...

g0d da^mit

Tokey41
02-06-2008, 08:35 PM
Amare-Dirk would scare me more personally, at least with Hill we don't have to worry as much about Dirk getting into early foul trouble.

I think this trade makes OUR chances better. I don't think Phoenix improved in any significant way... this really can't be overstated: they traded their best defender, they were #1 in the highly competitive west, they just took on a crapload of salary when they could have just dumped Marions massive contract (remember this is a team that sells draft picks for cash considerations...), and their infamous run and gun system just got a lot weaker without one of their big three (and Shaq being utterly incapable of replacing him in THAT tempo), their coach has never even attempted to play the style he will need to play to properly use Shaq on this team, and Shaq is frequently injured.

I think that about covers it... anyway, we should still make a trade.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 08:40 PM
Ha! I'm still curious as to what their reasons are.Candidly, I have no idea why you would be curious. I readily understand the reasons why some people believe it won't work: Shaq's age and health concerns, the loss of a key cog in Marion, Shaq's "fit" in their system. It's not hard...I get it. So why is it hard to recognize the flip side of the coin? Which is to say, Shaq as the premier big man in the game, Phoenix in need of a big man.

Let's not make it more complicated than it is.

mavsfan1000
02-06-2008, 09:28 PM
Amare can't guard Dirk and Dirk can't guard Amare. Shaq and Amare play in the paint so I think it will hurt their offense since they aren't spread out as much. Diop and Dampier will be great for this matchup guarding Shaq instead of Amare.

MavsX
02-06-2008, 10:04 PM
we shall find out

LonghornDub
02-06-2008, 10:33 PM
I love Dirk, but I don't really see where you are coming from. Amare can be pretty much unstoppable. (At least he has been against us in the past.) He plays a WAY different style than Dirk does. Dirk's just not that flavor of unstoppable--or at least, he hasn't been in the last two or three playoffs.


Yeah, I was thinking he was looking pretty stoppable when he dropped 50 against Phoenix....

Just because he's not unstoppable with rim rattling dunks and crazy high ups doesn't mean he's not unstoppable.

chumdawg
02-06-2008, 10:39 PM
Yeah, I was thinking he was looking pretty stoppable when he dropped 50 against Phoenix....

Just because he's not unstoppable with rim rattling dunks and crazy high ups doesn't mean he's not unstoppable.Of course he looked great that night. Again, let's be clear that my saying anything positive about Amare is not meant to demean Dirk. You're okay with that, right?

When we played the Suns in '05, it seemed like Amare and Nash took turns getting whatever they wanted out there. Obviously, Amare didn't get his on threes, as Dirk did in that Phoenix game. I don't know if he did it with "rim rattling dunks and crazy high ups," either. Point is, he got it. At will.

Hell, he averaged 30 in the playoffs year. He averaged 30, in the playoffs. I'm just sayin'...

FINtastic
02-06-2008, 10:45 PM
I love Dirk, but I don't really see where you are coming from. Amare can be pretty much unstoppable. (At least he has been against us in the past.) He plays a WAY different style than Dirk does. Dirk's just not that flavor of unstoppable--or at least, he hasn't been in the last two or three playoffs.

I know that it's never as simple as this, but if you told me the series would come down to those individual matchups, and which one did I want...well, Amare against Bass would look pretty tasty to me.

He hasn't been unstoppable in the last two or three playoffs? That's just patently false. Why as a matter of fact, I'm sure the Suns seem to remember a Dirk that was pretty unstoppable in the 2006 playoffs. You know, the same one that dropped 50 points on them.

Amare can be absolutely unstoppable at times, but he's also seems pretty wishy-washy during other parts of the game. There are times when I can't help but wonder why he's not utilizing his talents more often in certain games. I can recall several games in the last couple of years against Dallas where Amare was pretty quiet for most of the game, and then went through stretches in the 4th quarter where he dominated the game. You kind of sat there wondering what took him so long. Maybe it's Phoenix's fault for not utilizing him better throughout the game, maybe it's Amare's fault for not asserting his power game, or maybe he doesn't quite have it anymore to be that freak from '05. But I haven't really seen Amare dominate the Mavs from start to finish like that playoff save for that one overtime game from last March where he did have 41 points in 45 minutes.

Amare vs. Bass may not be a bad matchup for Phoenix, I'm sure Amare will still get his. But I don't see him dominating the likes of Bass anymore than what Dirk will do to Hill. Bass has the strength and athleticism to keep up with an Amare. And Bass isn't a bad one on one defender. He's just not much of a help defender, at least when he's your last line of defense uner the basket. But if we can put Damp on the court at the same time as Bass (and with Shaq now on the court, we should be able to), that will help solve that problem. I'll take a Bass-Amare matchup. I'd be interested to see what Bass could do given the chance. I'm curious to see if Avery will actually give him that chance though.