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Thespiralgoeson
02-09-2008, 02:09 AM
Okay, does anyone know where I can see an accurate listing of the NBA's team salaries? The only place I know that has a list is hoopshype, and that would seem to be unreliable. Either that or everyone else is misinformed. I'm not sure, because I was under the impression that KVH's contract expired last year and was no longer on the books, and hoopshype verifies that. Yet in the recent trade talks LOTS of people are have mentioned using his expiring contract as trade bait. Also, according to hoopshype, Stackhouse is a free agent at the end of the year, but in every list of the 2008 free agent class I can find around the web, his name is nowhere to be found. Can anyone clear this up for me? Am I just missing something, or is hoopshype completely full of it?

DelNegro
02-09-2008, 04:28 AM
There is no "official" list so no site can guarantee 100% accuracy. But, hoopshype is clearly full of holes and I quit going there for salary info once I found ShamSports.

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/index.jsp

As for KVH, he's not on the books. He's a free agent to whom the mavs still have rights too since he hasn't signed anywhere or officially retired.

Thespiralgoeson
02-09-2008, 04:35 AM
There is no "official" list so no site can guarantee 100% accuracy. But, hoopshype is clearly full of holes and I quit going there for salary info once I found ShamSports.

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/index.jsp

As for KVH, he's not on the books. He's a free agent to whom the mavs still have rights too since he hasn't signed anywhere or officially retired.

So does his contract still count against the cap?

jthig32
02-09-2008, 10:38 AM
He doesn't have a contract.

kg_veteran
02-09-2008, 11:06 AM
Patricia's website (http://www.eskimo.com/%7Epbender/contracts) has the most accurate contract information available, IMO.

MavsX
02-09-2008, 11:27 AM
Patricia's website (http://www.eskimo.com/%7Epbender/contracts) has the most accurate contract information available, IMO.


Who the hell is Patricia!

MavsX
02-09-2008, 11:53 AM
There is no "official" list so no site can guarantee 100% accuracy. But, hoopshype is clearly full of holes and I quit going there for salary info once I found ShamSports.

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/index.jsp

As for KVH, he's not on the books. He's a free agent to whom the mavs still have rights too since he hasn't signed anywhere or officially retired.


ugh..i like that site.. rep to you

Thespiralgoeson
02-09-2008, 06:22 PM
He doesn't have a contract.

So how would we be able to trade him? I guess it would have to be a sign and trade? Is he like a restricted free agent or what?

DelNegro
02-09-2008, 06:49 PM
Patricia's website (http://www.eskimo.com/%7Epbender/contracts) has the most accurate contract information available, IMO.

Her site is really good too, just not quite as user-friendly IMO. I use Patricia's when I want to see what someone was making back in whatever year. All the other sites are current info only.

jthig32
02-09-2008, 07:15 PM
So how would we be able to trade him? I guess it would have to be a sign and trade? Is he like a restricted free agent or what?

Yes, a sign and trade. No he is not a restricted free agent.

He simply does not have a contract. He has not turned in retirement papers, and we have not renounced his rights. Therefore we still hold Bird rights on him and can sign him to a three year contract with only the first year guaranteed, thus creating an automatic expiring contract.

It's what the Lakers with with Aaron McKie for the Gasol trade.

DLord
02-10-2008, 12:15 AM
I was under the impression that KVH's contract expired last year and was no longer on the books, and hoopshype verifies that. Yet in the recent trade talks LOTS of people are have mentioned using his expiring contract as trade bait.

It was my fault :) for introducing this concept to the landscape in Mavs World, so I'll clarify for you.

I believe this is the first article where my invented term "Artificial Expiring Contract" was first used, and where the concept was explained that is now somewhat commonly understood in relation to KVH. http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullArchiveColumn.php?id=28

This is the article where the concept of specifically using KVH to invent that expiring contract as filler, for a KG deal, was mentioned.
http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullArchiveColumn.php?id=2506

Now let me outline some of the details.

1. HOW DOES IT WORK?

You take a player without a contract (where you were his last team) and use him in a sign-and-trade as filler to satisfy the trade-matching rules. Only one year has to be guaranteed, so the instant the ink is dry on the contract, it is an "instant expiring" and in its last year. In other words, it's perfect filler - especially when you can write the contract for the exact dollar amount (and no more) needed to satisfy the mandates of the trade rules.

Finding the right player? Ah, there's the catch. It's not as easy as it looks to find the (potential) guy like KVH.

2. IS IT LEGAL? (What about the rules saying "no circumvention" of the cap?)

The idea that this could in any way constitute "circumvention" of the cap rules arises from a misunderstanding of what the NBA means by circumvention. Circumvention is acting OUTSIDE the rules (particularly the cap rule) so that they don't apply. However, the rules are written in very strict legalese with the idea that as long as teams operate within the rules, they are free to use whatever wiggle room is given to them.

Signing KVH to an artificial expiring would be using some of that wiggle room. There is no cap avoidance - clearly Cuban would ramp up his cap and tax numbers considerably, if he chose to do such a thing, and the rules are written to dampen spending but never to forbid it. So if the teams want to spend their money in this fashion, it is permissible.

In addition, you see clear confirmation that this is very legal, because it has occurred and been approved in the past. The Mavs themselves used artificial expiring contract filler in the past, as filler in the Jamison-to-Dallas deal.

(A list of some of the players used in this manner that I've been able to dig up are: Popeye Jones, Brian Shaw, Gary Grant, Joe Kleine, Steven Hunter, Aaron McKie.)

Besides the anecdotal evidence, there is one ultimate piece of evidence that this is not forbidden: such a trade concept was anticipated and rules written to govern it within the CBA!! The rule mandating that a sign-and-trade must be for 3 years with at least the first year guaranteed is an implicit recognition that teams will want to (and are allowed to) create contracts like these merely for trade purposes. As long as they follow those rules, there is no problem.

3. HOW DOES IT WORK WITH KVH?

KVH is relaxing with his family and has no Mavs contract. But technically, he is merely a player without a contract, eligible to be signed at any time. The Mavs, as his last team, happen to have Bird rights, which would allow them to go over the cap and sign him to any contract up to the max allowable amount for him. (See particulars in the link noted above.)

Therefore, if he is interested, the Mavs could sign him to a contract in a sign-and-trade, as filler for a deal. If he signs such a deal, he would be obligated to play for that team if they wanted him to, for the duration of the contract. But as noted above, it could be written in such a way where he has a pretty strong assurance he won't ever have to show up and will be getting a paycheck merely for signing. He'd also want to make sure it's a big enough financial package that if he has to get off his couch for a few months and actually play, it's still worth it to him.

4. WHY DON'T WE SEE THIS HAPPENING ALL THE TIME? CAN'T ANY TEAM DO IT WITH ALMOST ANY EX-PLAYER?

Interestingly, there are far fewer ideal candidates for this than you'd think. The reasons are many ...
a If your last team doesn't have Bird rights (or Early Bird) on you, then it isn't a useful possibility because your old team can't sign-and-trade you for any deal bigger than the minimum.
b. Most players "retire" and thereby become ineligible to then be used like KVH is (in theory).
c. Base year restrictions can make a player unusable for such a deal.
Few players go straight from "big contract" to "not playing" - and instead go from big money to medium to small to no deal. Base year issues (where the new contract is more than a 20% raise over the last year of the last contract) change the dynamic and feasibility if they apply..
d. Some also get bought out from their big or their last deal. Others are waived. If a player was waived (a buyout is just a fancy form of a waiver) from his last deal, there is no "old team" that can use him this way.
e. If you are player like KVH where the last deal is huge, this sort of opportunity may be a windfall in excess of $10M and therefore you wouldn't mind being forced to go attend practices and games without playing. But if you're coming off a much smaller deal, you might have better deals awaiting (including an actual chance to play) by getting a contract with a new team and playing there.
f. Few players are willing to sit at home and turn down deals in hopes of being used in an artificial expiring that may never happen.
g. Note: if a player is "renounced" it does NOT prohibit the team from using him in this fashion - it just adds a few more limits in how or when it's could be used.
h. If a player is signed mid-year, he'll get the full face amount of the contract (the payout isn't prorated lower for missing part of the season), so using this type of deal at this point in the season can cause a cash-flow crunch for the team that gets him as his full year of pay must be paid in only 2 months.

By the time you go down the list of who can't be used or whose contract is too small to help, you're not left with very many who make a big difference to use.

And if a team has an expiring contract already they can get rid of, they use it first. That's because of the greatest impediment to this practice, even more significant than a mere lack of candidates.: It raises payroll. The artificial expiring typically would add that much x 125% to a team's cap, because the owner has taken someone costing him 0 (for example, KVH) and signed him to a the smallest amount possible that will match up to 25% more payroll coming back from another team. With tax hitting so many teams, and so many more close to the tax line, few want to add more.

It takes the right team PLUS that team must have just the right player sitting at home. And then they have to be interested in a deal where they need filler, rather than having players already on their roster to send away.

5. CURRENT POSSIBILITIES

The KVH idea has now been mentioned in enough places that you'll see him mentioned regularly as one of the Mavs potential trade assets. (I think the discussion has even been repeated to the point where some writers and readers are thinking of him as a "player" who could fit in trade rather than as merely contractual filler, which is wrong.) In addition, since the Lakers used Aaron McKie in this fashion in the Gasol trade, people have started to take notice of the concept that we've been mentioning and are even starting to use our terminology or close knockoffs (instant expiring, artificial expiring, etc).

Other possible players to use? There may be tons of little ones, but I have found 7 that have a pretty sizable amount that could be used: KVH, PJ Brown, Rik Smits, Latrell Sprewell, Corliss Williamson, Danny Fortson, Dale Davis. There are probably others.

Hope that helps.

DL

EDIT: Henry Abbott at ESPN's True Hoop has compiled the following list, and it's probably accurate but I haven't double-checked it. I suspect many if not most of the "low salary" ones were min salary players and wouldn't be much help.

High Salary
Chicago P.J. Brown ($8,560,000)
Dallas Keith Van Horn ($15,694,250)
Indiana Rik Smits ($12,250,000)
Minnesota Latrell Sprewell ($14,625,000)

Medium Salary
Boston Roshown McLeod
Chicago Michael Sweetney
Detroit Victor Alexander, Dale Davis, Don Reid
Golden State Calbert Cheaney
Houston Maciej Lampe, Jake Tsakalidis
Indiana Zan Tabak
LA Lakers Ron Harper, Karl Malone, Shammond Williams
New Orleans Marc Jackson
Philadelphia Rodney Rogers
Phoenix Jalen Rose
Portland Voshon Leonard, Detlef Schrempf
Sacramento Vitaly Potapenko, Brent Price, Corliss Williamson
Seattle Danny Fortson
Utah Greg Ostertag
Washington Anthony Peeler

Minimum Salary
Boston Dana Barros, Grant Long
Dallas Vernon Maxwell, Johnny Newman, Walt Williams, Kevin Willis
Denver Wesley Person
Detroit Tony Delk, Danny Manning
Indiana Tyus Edney, Tim Hardaway, Terry Mills, LaSalle Thompson
LA Lakers Horace Grant, Mitch Richmond, John Salley, Brian Shaw
Miami Shandon Anderson, Christian Laettner, Gary Payton, John Wallace, Zhi-zhi Wang
Minnesota Oliver Miller, Sam Mitchell
New Jersey Travis Best, Hubert Davis, Sherman Douglas, Gheorghe Muresan
New York Kelvin Cato, Andrew Lang, Felton Spencer, Bruno Sundov
Philadelphia Rick Mahorn, Derrick McKey
Portland Chris Dudley
San Antonio Glenn Robinson, Nick Van Exel
Washington Chris Whitney

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-30-10/Aaron-McKie-is-Not-the-Only-NBA-Coach-Who-Could-Get-Traded.html

Thespiralgoeson
02-10-2008, 12:18 AM
It was my fault :) for introducing this concept to the landscape in Mavs World, so I'll clarify for you.

I believe this is the first article where my invented term "Artificial Expiring Contract" was first used, and where the concept was explained that is now somewhat commonly understood in relation to KVH. http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullArchiveColumn.php?id=28

This is the article where the concept of specifically using KVH to invent that expiring contract as filler, for a KG deal, was mentioned.
http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullArchiveColumn.php?id=2506

Now let me outline some of the details.

1. HOW DOES IT WORK?

You take a player without a contract (where you were his last team) and use him in a sign-and-trade as filler to satisfy the trade-matching rules. Only one year has to be guaranteed, so the instant the ink is dry on the contract, it is an "instant expiring" and in its last year. In other words, it's perfect filler - especially when you can write the contract for the exact dollar amount (and no more) needed to satisfy the mandates of the trade rules.

Finding the right player? Ah, there's the catch. It's not as easy as it looks to find the (potential) guy like KVH.

2. IS IT LEGAL? (What about the rules saying "no circumvention" of the cap?)

The idea that this could in any way constitute "circumvention" of the cap rules arises from a misunderstanding of what the NBA means by circumvention. Circumvention is acting OUTSIDE the rules (particularly the cap rule) so that they don't apply. However, the rules are written in very strict legalese with the idea that as long as teams operate within the rules, they are free to use whatever wiggle room is given to them.

Signing KVH to an artificial expiring would be using some of that wiggle room. There is no cap avoidance - clearly Cuban would ramp up his cap and tax numbers considerably, if he chose to do such a thing, and the rules are written to dampen spending but never to forbid it. So if the teams want to spend their money in this fashion, it is permissible.

In addition, you see clear confirmation that this is very legal, because it has occurred and been approved in the past. The Mavs themselves used artificial expiring contract filler in the past, as filler in the Jamison-to-Dallas deal.

(A list of some of the players used in this manner that I've been able to dig up are: Popeye Jones, Brian Shaw, Gary Grant, Joe Kleine, Steven Hunter, Aaron McKie.)

Besides the anecdotal evidence, there is one ultimate piece of evidence that this is not forbidden: such a trade concept was anticipated and rules written to govern it within the CBA!! The rule mandating that a sign-and-trade must be for 3 years with at least the first year guaranteed is an implicit recognition that teams will want to (and are allowed to) create contracts like these merely for trade purposes. As long as they follow those rules, there is no problem.

3. HOW DOES IT WORK WITH KVH?

KVH is relaxing with his family and has no Mavs contract. But technically, he is merely a player without a contract, eligible to be signed at any time. The Mavs, as his last team, happen to have Bird rights, which would allow them to go over the cap and sign him to any contract up to the max allowable amount for him. (See particulars in the link noted above.)

Therefore, if he is interested, the Mavs could sign him to a contract in a sign-and-trade, as filler for a deal. If he signs such a deal, he would be obligated to play for that team if they wanted him to, for the duration of the contract. But as noted above, it could be written in such a way where he has a pretty strong assurance he won't ever have to show up and will be getting a paycheck merely for signing. He'd also want to make sure it's a big enough financial package that if he has to get off his couch for a few months and actually play, it's still worth it to him.

4. WHY DON'T WE SEE THIS HAPPENING ALL THE TIME? CAN'T ANY TEAM DO IT WITH ALMOST ANY EX-PLAYER?

Interestingly, there are far fewer ideal candidates for this than you'd think. The reasons are many ...
a If your last team doesn't have Bird rights (or Early Bird) on you, then it isn't a useful possibility because your old team can't sign-and-trade you for any deal bigger than the minimum.
b. Most players "retire" and thereby become ineligible to then be used like KVH is (in theory).
c. Base year restrictions can make a player unusable for such a deal.
Few players go straight from "big contract" to "not playing" - and instead go from big money to medium to small to no deal. Base year issues (where the new contract is more than a 20% raise over the last year of the last contract) change the dynamic and feasibility if they apply..
d. Some also get bought out from their big or their last deal. Others are waived. If a player was waived (a buyout is just a fancy form of a waiver) from his last deal, there is no "old team" that can use him this way.
e. If you are player like KVH where the last deal is huge, this sort of opportunity may be a windfall in excess of $10M and therefore you wouldn't mind being forced to go attend practices and games without playing. But if you're coming off a much smaller deal, you might have better deals awaiting (including an actual chance to play) by getting a contract with a new team and playing there.
f. Few players are willing to sit at home and turn down deals in hopes of being used in an artificial expiring that may never happen.
g. Note: if a player is "renounced" it does NOT prohibit the team from using him in this fashion - it just adds a few more limits in how or when it's could be used.
h. If a player is signed mid-year, he'll get the full face amount of the contract (the payout isn't prorated lower for missing part of the season), so using this type of deal at this point in the season can cause a cash-flow crunch for the team that gets him as his full year of pay must be paid in only 2 months.

By the time you go down the list of who can't be used or whose contract is too small to help, you're not left with very many who make a big difference to use.

And if a team has an expiring contract already they can get rid of, they use it first. That's because of the greatest impediment to this practice, even more significant than a mere lack of candidates.: It raises payroll. The artificial expiring typically would add that much x 125% to a team's cap, because the owner has taken someone costing him 0 (for example, KVH) and signed him to a the smallest amount possible that will match up to 25% more payroll coming back from another team. With tax hitting so many teams, and so many more close to the tax line, few want to add more.

It takes the right team PLUS that team must have just the right player sitting at home. And then they have to be interested in a deal where they need filler, rather than having players already on their roster to send away.

5. CURRENT POSSIBILITIES

The KVH idea has now been mentioned in enough places that you'll see him mentioned regularly as one of the Mavs potential trade assets. (I think the discussion has even been repeated to the point where some writers and readers are thinking of him as a "player" who could fit in trade rather than as merely contractual filler, which is wrong.) In addition, since the Lakers used Aaron McKie in this fashion in the Gasol trade, people have started to take notice of the concept that we've been mentioning and are even starting to use our terminology or close knockoffs (instant expiring, artificial expiring, etc).

Other possible players to use? There may be tons of little ones, but I have found 7 that have a pretty sizable amount that could be used: KVH, PJ Brown, Rik Smits, Latrell Sprewell, Corliss Williamson, Danny Fortson, Dale Davis. There are probably others.

Hope that helps.

DL

Thanks for the explanation. Ugh, my god the NBA salary cap rules are complicated.

chumdawg
02-10-2008, 12:40 AM
h. If a player is signed mid-year, he'll get the full face amount of the contract (the payout isn't prorated lower for missing part of the season), so using this type of deal at this point in the season can cause a cash-flow crunch for the team that gets him as his full year of pay must be paid in only 2 months.David, here's a question for you. I seem to recall that there was a provision in Finley's contract that allowed for a long-term payout of the owed amount in the event that he was released. I'm not sure I am stating it correctly, but didn't we hear that Cuban is NOT actually paying Fin $17MM or whatever a year, in terms of cash flow. Isn't it something like $2MM or $3MM a year?

If that's the case, what stops the Mavs from putting a similar provision into KVB's "Artificial Expiring Contract" (henceforth to be known as "AEC"?) and using it to ameliorate cash-flow concerns?

DLord
02-10-2008, 01:31 AM
David, here's a question for you. I seem to recall that there was a provision in Finley's contract that allowed for a long-term payout of the owed amount in the event that he was released. I'm not sure I am stating it correctly, but didn't we hear that Cuban is NOT actually paying Fin $17MM or whatever a year, in terms of cash flow. Isn't it something like $2MM or $3MM a year?

If that's the case, what stops the Mavs from putting a similar provision into KVB's "Artificial Expiring Contract" (henceforth to be known as "AEC"?) and using it to ameliorate cash-flow concerns?

That is called a spread provision. That sort of payout is not allowed if the player is on your roster, but can be included as a provision if the player is waived, and yes Finley is actually being paid over MANY years at a reported rate of something like 2-3M per year.

Maybe the same thing could be done here, but I really don't know that for certain and wouldn't assume it to be the case. In this case, where a player is being signed for trade filler, there may be additional restrictions or additional latitude on that 1st year salary payout, if the player is waived, and I'm hesitant to guess. To my knowledge, the rules and restrictions on spread provisions are in the league constitution, by-laws and memos (I've never found them in the CBA), and those docs are not public at all. All we know on areas covered in those docs is what gets made public from instance to instance, and for all we know those rules change periodically.

Thespiralgoeson
02-10-2008, 03:09 AM
There is no "official" list so no site can guarantee 100% accuracy. But, hoopshype is clearly full of holes and I quit going there for salary info once I found ShamSports.

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/index.jsp

As for KVH, he's not on the books. He's a free agent to whom the mavs still have rights too since he hasn't signed anywhere or officially retired.

lol, on this site if you look at Chicago's payroll, Ben Wallace is listed as "Waste of Space"