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StackAttack
02-20-2008, 06:30 PM
ESPN claims a deal is being finalized sending Brent Barry and Francisco Elson to Seattle for Kurt Thomas. Sob, I wanted Thomas.

If either Barry or Elson gets cut, I'd welcome them with open arms.

EDIT: And now a link.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=jy-thomas022008&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

LonghornDub
02-20-2008, 06:32 PM
Not a bad pick up. I'm not sure that getting rid of Barry is a good move, but KT is certainly a nice piece.

jthig32
02-20-2008, 06:33 PM
I haven't caught many Spurs games lately, but isn't Barry still a member of the rotation?

I wonder if this is a wink wink he's going to be cut situation.

Vinny?

StackAttack
02-20-2008, 06:36 PM
Yeah, 43% three point shooters aren't growing on trees. And Elson, I always felt, was a solid player. Don't like the move for the Spurs, but I suppose with Shaq in the West, it changes a couple of things.

Plus, this is a good way of eliminating one of the players who used to guard Duncan pretty damn well from the equation.

Big Shot Rob
02-20-2008, 06:45 PM
I hate this move.

Barry is injured, but he has pulled our bacon out of the frying pan at key times during the play-offs.

Darn!

DelNegro
02-20-2008, 06:47 PM
I haven't caught many Spurs games lately, but isn't Barry still a member of the rotation?

I wonder if this is a wink wink he's going to be cut situation.

Vinny?

Answered in the other thread, but just to repeat here. Yes he was in the rotation, but he's hurt now and still a couple weeks away from returning. Tough loss, but you've got to give to get.............unless you're the lakers dealing with Memphis of course.

LonghornDub
02-20-2008, 06:47 PM
I hate this move.

Barry is injured, but he has pulled our bacon out of the frying pan at key times during the play-offs.

Darn!

Spurs fans seem to be assuming the Sonics will buy him out so that he can re-sign with the Spurs. Not sure why they'd think that, other than the recent Stackhouse situation being on everyone's mind.

DelNegro
02-20-2008, 06:47 PM
I hate this move.

Barry is injured, but he has pulled our bacon out of the frying pan at key times during the play-offs.

Darn!

It tough, but go watch some footage of oberto trying to guard yao. You'll feel better about it.

Underdog
02-20-2008, 06:50 PM
Crap on a crap cracker!

MavsFanFinley
02-20-2008, 06:52 PM
The rich keep on getting richer.

Elson wasn't doing anything for them and while Barry is a 3pt threat he's been injured most the season. Finley, Ginobli, Bowen, and Udoka are all 3 point threats so it's not like they're losing their only option.

Thomas is a very capable rebounder and defender. He'll fit right in next to Duncan when Oberto isn't in the game.

LonghornDub
02-20-2008, 06:55 PM
The rich keep on getting richer.

Elson wasn't doing anything for them and while Barry is a 3pt threat he's been injured most the season. Finley, Ginobli, Bowen, and Udoka are all 3 point threats so it's not like they're losing their only option.

Thomas is a very capable rebounder and defender. He'll fit right in next to Duncan when Oberto isn't in the game.

Much like the Kidd trade probably hurts us against the Spurs, I think this trade hurts them against us. Barry let them play a pretty good small ball lineup. They could really stretch our perimeter D going inside-out with Duncan.

Kurt Thomas can't do much against the Mavs. Who will he guard--Dirk?

StackAttack
02-20-2008, 06:58 PM
Probably, he's a really able defender, albeit a bit slow for Dirk. And considering how good Howard's gotten, Bowen sort of has to play him.

LonghornDub
02-20-2008, 07:00 PM
Probably, he's a really able defender, albeit a bit slow for Dirk. And considering how good Howard's gotten, Bowen sort of has to play him.

He's a very capable post defender. But Dirk with Kidd is going to be stepping out of the post a lot more. Thomas won't be able to guard him.

Frankly, I completely understand why they made the move. It helps them against the Suns and Lakers. But I think it will hurt them against us--which is nice, cause it helps to balance (a bit) the losses we just suffered in Harris and Diop insofar as our matchup with the Spurs.

Underdog
02-20-2008, 07:03 PM
Much like the Kidd trade probably hurts us against the Spurs, I think this trade hurts them against us. Barry let them play a pretty good small ball lineup. They could really stretch our perimeter D going inside-out with Duncan.

Kurt Thomas can't do much against the Mavs. Who will he guard--Dirk?


It seems like both Kurt Thomas & Shaq were (at least partially) acquired to keep them off the Mavs roster...

Does this help the Spurs against the Mavs? Only if it keeps KT from covering Duncan...

rabbitproof
02-20-2008, 07:04 PM
Yeah, smells like a keep away move.

jthig32
02-20-2008, 07:05 PM
I think Thomas helps them against us.

Without Thomas you were talking about Duncan or Orberto guarding Dirk.

Thomas will guard Dirk a whole lot better than either of those two.

DelNegro
02-20-2008, 07:06 PM
I think the Spurs were thinking of Shaq, Yao, Booker-Okur and Gasol-Bynum more than they were about anything the Mavs may or may not have done.

LonghornDub
02-20-2008, 07:07 PM
I think Thomas helps them against us.

Without Thomas you were talking about Duncan or Orberto guarding Dirk.

Thomas will guard Dirk a whole lot better than either of those two.

Thomas is slower than either of them, IMO. If we start seeing "bombs away" Dirk a bit more with our new PG, Thomas is going to have a whole mess of problems with that.

This also really messes up their situation for when they want to put Bowen on Dirk. Now, they won't be able to play KT+Bowen+Duncan with Bowen on Dirk at all, unless they think KT or Duncan can guard Howard.

LonghornDub
02-20-2008, 07:07 PM
I think the Spurs were thinking of Shaq, Yao, Booker-Okur and Gasol-Bynum more than they were about anything the Mavs may or may not have done.

Agreed.

jthig32
02-20-2008, 07:09 PM
Thomas may be slower, but he's a better defender than either one of them, regardless of the situation, imo.

Duncan and Orberto get torched by Dirk.

As far as the rotation if they want Bowen guarding Dirk, the same could have been said for their previous options at PF.

I don't think they made this move with the Mavs in mind, but I certainly don't think this hurts them in our matchup, except from the angle of losing a valuable three point shooter.

MavsX
02-20-2008, 07:10 PM
i thought elson, was their secret weapon?

LonghornDub
02-20-2008, 07:12 PM
Thomas may be slower, but he's a better defender than either one of them, regardless of the situation, imo.

Duncan and Orberto get torched by Dirk.

As far as the rotation if they want Bowen guarding Dirk, the same could have been said for their previous options at PF.

I don't think they made this move with the Mavs in mind, but I certainly don't think this hurts them in our matchup, except from the angle of losing a valuable three point shooter.

Not so. Barry could guard Howard in that situation. Additionally, they were less inclined at times to put Bowen on Dirk because they had Elson.

I think you overrate Thomas's D outside 10 feet or so. He can't play much D at all against someone who doesnt have his back to the basket.

Underdog
02-20-2008, 07:15 PM
I think the Spurs were thinking of Shaq, Yao, Booker-Okur and Gasol-Bynum more than they were about anything the Mavs may or may not have done.

I'd agree that this was their primary motivation, but isn't every move in the West partially a "keep away" move at this point?

I think that's why little was said about the Gasol trade until it was over... Plus, if we didn't get Kidd, there's a good chance LA would have... Plus, plus, I think Shaq makes a whole lot more sense on the Mavs roster than on the Suns... Plus, plus, plus, Kurt Thomas was the best available center left and could have helped any contender at this point, especially with the Mavs as a Duncan-stopper (since we apparently lost that when Diop left...)

I asked my magic 8-ball who's going to win it all this year & it imploded...

jthig32
02-20-2008, 08:02 PM
Not so. Barry could guard Howard in that situation. Additionally, they were less inclined at times to put Bowen on Dirk because they had Elson.

I think you overrate Thomas's D outside 10 feet or so. He can't play much D at all against someone who doesnt have his back to the basket.

And instead of Barry they can play Finley or Udoka, both better options defensively.

I'm not claiming Thomas to be some great stopper, but he's a MUCH better defender than Duncan or Orberto against a player like Dirk, imo. He certainly doesn't weaken their matchup.

MavsFanFinley
02-20-2008, 08:12 PM
When Pop gave an injury update on Barry right before the RR trip he said Barry was a few weeks away at least. I'm wondering if he isn't done for the season? Or the possibility that he wouldn't return the same after having torn two different calf muscles in the same leg.

They've tried trading him the last 2 years so it's not like they haven't thought about this before. And it makes it easier when Udoka has stepped up like he has. While he's not the ball handler Barry is he's proven a realiable 3pt shooter, rebounds, and plays 10 times better defense.

Elson was in the dog house and his confidence shot.

Thomas is proven low-post defender, rebounds, and has a consistent mid-ranger jumper. He's going to fit right in for the Spurs.

DelNegro
02-20-2008, 10:26 PM
i thought elson, was their secret weapon?

He was. Unfortunately Elson wasn't in on the secret.

DelNegro
02-20-2008, 10:39 PM
I'd agree that this was their primary motivation, but isn't every move in the West partially a "keep away" move at this point?

I think that's why little was said about the Gasol trade until it was over... Plus, if we didn't get Kidd, there's a good chance LA would have... Plus, plus, I think Shaq makes a whole lot more sense on the Mavs roster than on the Suns... Plus, plus, plus, Kurt Thomas was the best available center left and could have helped any contender at this point, especially with the Mavs as a Duncan-stopper (since we apparently lost that when Diop left...)

I asked my magic 8-ball who's going to win it all this year & it imploded...

There might be something to that with Phoenix and Dallas. Cuban has always been, IMO at least, very reactionary to what is going on around the league. And in Phoenix I think Steve Kerr needed the Gasol trade to have enough ammunition to convince Sarver that what they were doing wasn't going to work.

But, in my admittedly biased opinion, I don't think the Spurs get caught up in playing games like that. If a move makes sense for them they'll do it, but I just don't see Pop or RC Buford as watching sportscenter one day and seeing all these trades and suddenly deciding that they need to do something to keep up. I think they'd have probably pulled the trigger on this even if none of those other 3 big trades ever happened.

MavsX
02-20-2008, 10:53 PM
He was. Unfortunately Elson wasn't in on the secret.


haha. doh

Windmill360
02-21-2008, 12:33 AM
any way we can land brent barry??? i hear the suns are going after him

Flacolaco
02-21-2008, 12:38 AM
I think the Spurs were thinking of Shaq, Yao, Booker-Okur and Gasol-Bynum more than they were about anything the Mavs may or may not have done.

Agree as well. At this point unfortunately I don't think anyone is considering the mavericks to be a big enough threat to play 'keep away' with guys.

MavsFanFinley
02-21-2008, 12:49 AM
any way we can land brent barry??? i hear the suns are going after him

It's my understanding that the Suns hope the Sonics waive him so they can go after him. I don't see Barry signing with the Suns.

We don't have anything to offer the Sonics in trade as they would want expiring contracts or draft picks. We have money to throw at him but not sure that's enough to draw him here at this stage in his career.

Frankly, I see him returning to SA if he's waived. He has a home there, his family has settled in there. And Barry's not stupid enough to brag about returning there so the league wouldn't look into it. Or threaten an investigation.

Dirkenstien
02-21-2008, 09:40 AM
It's my understanding that the Suns hope the Sonics waive him so they can go after him. I don't see Barry signing with the Suns.

We don't have anything to offer the Sonics in trade as they would want expiring contracts or draft picks. We have money to throw at him but not sure that's enough to draw him here at this stage in his career.

Frankly, I see him returning to SA if he's waived. He has a home there, his family has settled in there. And Barry's not stupid enough to brag about returning there so the league wouldn't look into it. Or threaten an investigation.

I actually think the league would investigate it if Barry went back to the Spurs. Especially if the Spurs were one of those teams calling in crying about Stackhouse and especially because former Spurs assistant, Carlisimo, is involved here.

Stackhouse really raised the awareness level of these kind of deals and I think it's safe to assume that if Seattle does release Barry then there was a pre-arranged deal. Barry is a big expiring contract so for Seattle to let him walk would really not be a move in line with the Seattle franchise, rather it would be a move in line with the Spurs franchise.

horse900703
02-21-2008, 09:40 AM
Good for them~~~~
but they will not go any where

DelNegro
02-21-2008, 10:04 AM
I actually think the league would investigate it if Barry went back to the Spurs. Especially if the Spurs were one of those teams calling in crying about Stackhouse and especially because former Spurs assistant, Carlisimo, is involved here.

Stackhouse really raised the awareness level of these kind of deals and I think it's safe to assume that if Seattle does release Barry then there was a pre-arranged deal. Barry is a big expiring contract so for Seattle to let him walk would really not be a move in line with the Seattle franchise, rather it would be a move in line with the Spurs franchise.

The league only looked into the Mavs because Stackhouse opened his mouth. I don't know what happens with Barry, but if he does end up back in SA the Spurs, Sonics and Barry will all have their stories straight and the league won't be able to prove anything. The Soncis say "we just wanted that 1st round draft pick and don't want Barry taking time away from our young players". The Spurs say "we just wanted Kurt Thomas and had no idea what the Sonics were going to do with Barry". Barry says he needs some time to heal and consider his options, say something like 30 days, maybe even makes a token visit to a couple of teams and then decides the Spurs were the best fit for him all along. It might all be BS, but if you don't tell, the league won't ask. Unfortunately for the Mavs, Stack told so the league had to ask.

MavsFanFinley
02-21-2008, 11:28 AM
I don't see the league investigating the Spurs if Barry returns cause he didn't blab to the media how he wasn't going anywhere, how he was on a 30 day vacation, and he'd be right back with the team.

They might not have any interest in him anyway since they're happy with how Udoka has stepped up.

The other amazing thing about this trade is that while the Spurs got better they also got below the LT line. They were looking at paying $2-3 million and now find themselves about $400,000 below. I wouldn't be surprised to see them sign another swingman, even someone from the Toro's possibly.

Dtownsfinest
02-21-2008, 11:31 AM
Can't believe the Spurs gave up on Barry. They're going to rely on the shooting of Ginobilli, Finley, Udoka and Bowen? Maybe Horry? Not saying they can't carry the load but just never thought they'd give up on Barry and his jumpshot.

Dirkenstien
02-21-2008, 12:01 PM
I don't kow MFF, considering who is involved I think it would possibly warrant league investigation but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how it all pans out.

The Spurs did become better equipped for a playoff run with this trade, though.

LonghornDub
02-21-2008, 12:18 PM
Count me as another who questions the Spurs giving up on Barry. These guys were already having a lot of trouble scoring, and Barry is pretty critical to their inside-out game. IMO he's the best 3 point shooter on the team (and I think the numbers back that up).

Dtownsfinest
02-21-2008, 01:19 PM
Well the thing is Finley and Ginobilli have been dominant from outside. They've rarely been missing. So I guess right now you can say they don't really need Barry's shooting. But those jumpshots don't always fall. It just would've been good to have another one out there. Maybe the Spurs have something else cooking. I'd definately do the deal though especially if i'm the Spurs. KT gave Duncan fits last year in the post season. I would've grabbed him just to make sure he didn't end up on another contender. But KT's solid. I'd take a solid big over a solid guard any day.

MavsFanFinley
02-21-2008, 01:38 PM
The problem with the Spurs scoring was the absence of their pg driving and kicking out and creating for others while being a threat himself. That's something that Barry did well so with him and Parker out with injuries the Spurs were struggling. Ginobli can help in a pinch but it helped once Stoudamire was signed.

It was easy to focus on Duncan or Ginobli and let the others beat you. They miss Parker but it's my understanding he'll return tonight and play limited minutes.

The Spurs have enough 3 point shooters. Ginobli, Finley, Bowen, and Udoka are all legit threats. You can throw in Horry and Bonner (when he plays), not to mention Stoudamire and Parker are capable while not major threats.

DelNegro
02-21-2008, 01:49 PM
There are more alternative options to compensate for the loss of Barry's shooting than there would have been alternative options for guarding Shaq, Yao,...etc had they not made the deal.

some_user86
02-21-2008, 08:38 PM
I actually think the league would investigate it if Barry went back to the Spurs. Especially if the Spurs were one of those teams calling in crying about Stackhouse and especially because former Spurs assistant, Carlisimo, is involved here.

Stackhouse really raised the awareness level of these kind of deals and I think it's safe to assume that if Seattle does release Barry then there was a pre-arranged deal. Barry is a big expiring contract so for Seattle to let him walk would really not be a move in line with the Seattle franchise, rather it would be a move in line with the Spurs franchise.

Why wouldn't it move in line with Seattle? If they buy him out, they can save 0.5 million dollars, compared to having him sit on the bench for the rest of the year.

I think I've read that the Stackhouse flub actually gave Spurs cold feet on pulling this deal because they were planning on doing the same thing way before Stack had opened his mouth. So, Stack may have screwed the Spurs' pooch as well. I think Phoenix may have made the initial complaints to the league office about an 'unfair' deal.

LonghornDub
02-21-2008, 08:43 PM
There are more alternative options to compensate for the loss of Barry's shooting than there would have been alternative options for guarding Shaq, Yao,...etc had they not made the deal.

What are those alternatives? I'm curious. The Spurs have been without him most of the year and their shooting on the whole has been pretty poor. Finley's been good, but he's very streaky. And I certainly wouldn't want to hinge my hopes on Udoka in the playoffs.

some_user86
02-21-2008, 09:00 PM
What are those alternatives? I'm curious. The Spurs have been without him most of the year and their shooting on the whole has been pretty poor. Finley's been good, but he's very streaky. And I certainly wouldn't want to hinge my hopes on Udoka in the playoffs.

The shooting has been piss poor because Parker has been out. Parker puts pressure on interior defenses. When everyone is collapsing on the slashers and the big men (Parker, Ginobili and Duncan), it allows a more open shot for the three point shooters. Without Parker, their slashing offense has stagnated, allowing opposing defenses to put more pressure on the shooters. It's kinda like watching a throwback game from 2000-2002 Spurs.

some_user86
02-21-2008, 09:10 PM
Proof is in the pudding.

Spurs are #5 in three pt shooting at .381 in the season so far, despite not having Barry for nearly two months (combined).

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable1.html

I think Spurs, Suns, and Mavs fans are overrating Barry's usefulness to the Spurs.

Barry had averaged 3 ppg in 11.8 mpg at a clip of .306 3pt% in the playoffs last year. How useful is that?

DelNegro
02-21-2008, 09:21 PM
What are those alternatives? I'm curious. The Spurs have been without him most of the year and their shooting on the whole has been pretty poor. Finley's been good, but he's very streaky. And I certainly wouldn't want to hinge my hopes on Udoka in the playoffs.

Bowen and Ginobili are over 40%. Bonner and Finley are over 35%. Udoka's at 32%. Despite not being able to hit the broad side of a barn the first 3 months of the season, even Horry is shooting 42% in February.

DelNegro
02-21-2008, 09:23 PM
On a side note, Barry got waived today so that the Sonics could clear roster space to make their trade with Cleveland and Chicago.

See you in 30 days Brent!

some_user86
02-21-2008, 09:31 PM
On a side note, Barry got waived today so that the Sonics could clear roster space to make their trade with Cleveland and Chicago.

See you in 30 days Brent!

Where did you see that?

some_user86
02-21-2008, 09:41 PM
Never mind, it's mentioned here: http://www.nba.com/sonics/news/trade080221.html

Wow.

LonghornDub
02-21-2008, 09:50 PM
The shooting has been piss poor because Parker has been out. Parker puts pressure on interior defenses. When everyone is collapsing on the slashers and the big men (Parker, Ginobili and Duncan), it allows a more open shot for the three point shooters. Without Parker, their slashing offense has stagnated, allowing opposing defenses to put more pressure on the shooters. It's kinda like watching a throwback game from 2000-2002 Spurs.

They've been missing wide open jumpers. A lot. It's not like I haven't been watching.

And they're still doing it tonight against the T-Wolves. I'm not convinced at all that Parker is the key to that. Parker is an incredible player but the Spurs (somewhat like the Mavs) don't have much from the perimeter anymore.

But, it looks like Barry will be back anyway, so it's all a moot point.

some_user86
02-21-2008, 10:12 PM
Not unless Suns or Mavs pick him up off the waivers...

mqywaaah
02-22-2008, 01:08 PM
Good for them~~~~
but they will not go any where


Where are they going? Where are you going? Come back, come back...

horsey...