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MavsFanFinley
04-10-2001, 11:41 PM
What is with our shot distribution? Someone mentioned that Dirk isn't getting enough touches and that could be true. I mentioned on another board that Howard seems to have become our first option, then Dirk. I also mentioned that Fin isn't getting enough shots early in the game. In the Utah game, I think he had 4 shots at the half. Tonight he only took 2 shots in the first quarter and 8 for the half. That's absurd. But, the posters said that there really double-teaming Finley. Ok. And what's with Bradley wanting to score all of the sudden? Is anyone else ripping their hair out over that? 1-8 he was tonight. Ughh.

Don't get me started on turnovers...what the hell is going on? And no one else has mentioned it so I am. Nash is playing horribly guys. He's not distributing the ball like we know he can (excluding tonight, the Mavs have been hitting their shots). Hell, Eisley has been distributing the ball better than him. Plus, Nash has been turning it over too much. I say start Eisley a game and see how it goes, it couldn't be worse than Nash's last few games.

Finally, where has our defense gone? We were playing some out of this world defense and then BAM! it's gone. The defense is gone but our fouls have gone up. Besides turnovers, fouls are really starting to concern me.

Flying Tiger
04-10-2001, 11:45 PM
I agree that we are on a down slide, but I think that if they keep their confidence up and take lots of shots, the score will get higher and so will the percentages. Also, Nash is resting up for the play offs.

MavsFanFinley
04-10-2001, 11:50 PM
How is Nash resting up for the playoffs? Honestly, I think he's hurting us out there right now. Excluding the Hawks game where he had 18 and 12, he's really stinking it up out there right now. I say sit him and start Eisley, ironically, he's distributing the ball better and isn't turning it over either. And doing this in less time. By starting him, maybe he'll gain some of his confidence back as well.

Im not so worried about their scoring, that's usually a given (except for tonight) on most nights. It's their defense, or lack of, that Im concerned about. Couple that with all the fouls and turnovers and their confidence could be shot.

ReggieThetaChi
04-10-2001, 11:54 PM
Yeah, good call on that. I think the main problem is everyone is trying not to use all the juice trying to set records for regular season wins. I really and truly think we will be alright come play off time. So, no need to fret.

djb
04-10-2001, 11:55 PM
The thing I noticed about Nash lately is that he's really been playing out of control..something which partially explains the disturbing number of turnovers the Mavs have amassed the last few outtings. He fumbles the ball, loses it out of bounds, or has it stolen whenever he tries to penetrate. He also hasn't been hitting those crazy teardrop shots he became notorious for earlier this season. This probably has to do with all the double-teams he's been getting, but you think he'd learn to adjust accordingly after a few bad games.

Flying Tiger
04-10-2001, 11:56 PM
Have you not noticed the cut in minutes he has taken lately? I think his hamstring is still bothering him and Nelly want him to be for sure 100% for the play offs.

Jordan23TX
04-11-2001, 12:03 AM
I agree with you totally on all your takes. Also, DJ was right NASh is committin turnovers because he's out of control alot..But thats how he plays. My friends all joke that if Bradley isnt dunking he shouldnt be shooting ... so his 1-8 isnt all that suprising. I missed tonights game (the 1st this yr) But from the posts.... sounds like we were sucking in all areas..

MavsFanFinley
04-11-2001, 12:08 AM
I have noticed his reduced minutes but if it's his hamstring, why don't they just sit him? Cause he is not helping the team out there at all right now. I don't see how Eisley could do worse than him.

I've said from the beginning that Bradley shouldn't shoot the ball unless it's a dunk. I mean he misses lay ups and put backs too. I get tired of reading Bradley misses a 16 ft jumper. I don't know why he's trying to score lately.

Hales233
04-11-2001, 12:11 AM
hey fellas, how did eisley look tonight?? is he still in a slump?

Flying Tiger
04-11-2001, 12:12 AM
I was just assuming hamstring. I didn't hear that from any credible source. And I agree that Bradly shouldn't shoot unless he dunks. It doesn't matter how close he is, he can't seem to make it unless it is a dunk.

MavsFanFinley
04-11-2001, 12:18 AM
Here are Nash's and Eisley's stats for tonight:

Nash, 28 minutes, 2pts (1-6, 0-3 from 3), 4rbs, 5as, 2stls, 4to

Eisley, 17 minutes, 0pts (0-3), 1rb, 4as and a steal

Sure, it looks like Eisley had a horrid game but not really. He's distributing the ball and not turning it over. I think if he could start we would be ok. I don't care if he doesn't score, we don't need it. And it's not like we would be losing points with Nash out because he isn't scoring either out there. As long as Eisley doesn't turn it over and distributes the ball, I say we're fine.

Hales233
04-11-2001, 12:20 AM
MavsFanFinley,
Thanks for the stats. I agree with you, protecting the ball and distributing it are Howard's two biggest duties.

djb
04-11-2001, 02:51 AM
Here's something to consider. How much a factor do you think Buckner would have played in these last two games? I really believe his staunch defense and post-up skills would have really helped, though probably not enough to change the outcomes.

TheKid
04-11-2001, 09:30 AM
DJ, I never really thought about that. (BUCKNER NOT PLAYING) That's very good observation maybe Buck does make a difference.

I read some of those posts that said Dirk wasn't getting enough shots. How does that assumption come after lastnights game. He took the most three points and he had 14 shots in total. I'm sorry, but I think if the man is almost seven feet tall, a good portion of his shots should come off of offensive rebounds too.

I'm glad you pointed out the fewer shots that Fin are taking. The last two games he's taken FAR fewer shots during points in the game when he's normally the catalyst and what has happened in the last two games???? They've lost.

This has been my point all along, it's the trickle down effect. When Fin is not doing his thing through the first three quarters, it carries over to the rest of the team. Nash played HORRIBLE lastnight, Nowitzki got his points, but he didn't play that great and where did it all start with Fin because I don't think he was agressive enough. If it is true that he's getting doubled teamed, then why the hell isn't anyone else stepping up. Are the Mavericks that flat once you take Fin out of the game? Where's all this greatness everyone has been praising Dirk and Nash all season long about how this is Dirk's show now? If they're doubleteaming Fin, Dirk should be LOVING LIFE!!! Also, it's NASH's job to get him the ball, recognize where the double team is and get the open, capable scorer the ball!!!!!

LAM0015
04-11-2001, 09:55 AM
you're a m.... you're fortunate i'm holding back. you can't make those generalizations over a two game period. it's a long season and two games isn't enough to back what you're saying up.
in case you haven't noticed..they double team dirk alot as well...
get with it

TheKid
04-11-2001, 10:34 AM
I've been saying that ALL YEAR LONG!!!! The team goes as Fin goes, this is NOT the first time you've heard me say that either!!!! I'm not basing it off of two games, ALL THOUGH the last two games are very apparent though.

Besides, you took two games and decided that Fin is jealous of Dirk! So why is it not fair for me to take the next two games and make my assumption.

MavsFanFinley
04-11-2001, 11:22 AM
Kid, I agree with you. You'll just have to ignore LAMCHOP. He's just unhappy because Dirk isn't tearing it up out there either. This team feeds off Finley for the most part. He'll make this incredible shot or have a monster dunk and that gets the team pumped and they follow suit. That's not to say Dirk or Howard won't have a coast to coast dunk and pump life into the team, it's just they look to Finley for that imo.

I just don't like this trend of Howard becoming our first offensive option early in the game. If Fin is being hounded by double-teams, then Dirk is the next in line to STEP UP. Then Howard or Nash depending on matchups, etc...It's funny that one of the problems we have with Finley is he doesn't take it to the basket enough, although I think he has improved in that area. Maybe not so much in the last 2 games but has improved in that area and could improve even more. My point is that Dirk has stopped taking it in too. He's taking those long jumpers and hanging out at the 3 point line way too much. I think he was 2-5 in the Utah game and was 3-7 last night.

We have too many people trying to score right now. I know we'll need to have the bench contribute but not at the expense of our main guys. It should be Fin/Dirk first followed by Howard and/or Nash. Bradley shouldn't shoot, Im ok with Booth because he knows when to take a shot. Eisley shouldn't look to score either, just distribute the ball, unless he's wide open.

TheKid
04-11-2001, 11:44 AM
I think you and I see eye to eye Mavs fan. You expressed my exact sentiments on Dirk. I think also he's going through the same phase Finley went through at one point. He's established the ability to drain the three point shot, now he's becoming a predominantly three point shooter. I said the same thing last night when I realized half of his shots were three pointers. THAT'S why it seems like he's not getting he share of shots.

Personally I think he and Finley should take no more than five a game. I think Dirk needs to work the low post more also. If you look at every game he scores a lot of points, it's because he's working the mid range game too and driving. That's why he leads the team in free throws taken, however he has taken very few trips the past two games.

That's my problem with both Dirk and Fin, when they're games aren't going well they do the exact opposite of what they should do, they try to drain the three instead of taking it to the basket to go to the free throw line. I hear you about Juwan too, the only thing though is over the past five or six games, he has been the most consistent from the field. I see what the philosophy is. It's the Bill Cartwright philosophy, get him going early, get him happy and he'll do other things. That way later in the game, Fin and Dirk can do their thing. When he's not in the game in the beginning, you mine as well put Najera in the game, because Juwan get's frustrated. That was the knock on him in DC.

I don't know what to say about Nash except for the fact he needs to get healthy. If that is the reason he has been playing so poor lately.

LAM0015
04-11-2001, 12:15 PM
the problem is..is that finpoodle makes such a concerted effort to get howard the ball that he passes up on getting the ball to guys that are open.....whether it's dirk or nash. the same thing with howard, when he gets the ball..it's either take a shot...whether it's bad or not, or maybe he'll pass to finley. that is about it.

yes, it is very disturbing to see the mavs try and establish him so early in the game. he is a decent player but he should be, at best, the mavs third option on offense...maybe fourth. finley needs to take the ball to the damn basket every once in awhile.... dirk needs to also. but, dirk does need to take the three when he's open, he's a 40% three point shooter for goodness sake..of course he needs to take it when he's open.
juwan is playing power forward..he needs to get his ass on the offensive boards...and his defense is the most pathetic display of defense i think i've seen in years...

LAM0015
04-11-2001, 12:21 PM
and no, it wasn't two games that made me realize the truth that finley is threatened by dirk...it's been almost a season long thing...but it's gotten worse in the second half.

TheKid
04-11-2001, 12:36 PM
Well for starters, did you hear me say Dirk shouldn't take the open three? No you didn't, however you're trying to tell me he took SEVEN open three pointers lastnight and could only hit three of them? Chances are if he took seven open three pointers he would have made atleast five of them, because he is a good three point shooter. I was saying that BOTH Dirk and Fin needs to drive more, I'm not disagreeing with you when you say Fin needs to because it's the truth.

The Howard thing, I guess I'm different on that one. I don't care if they go to him early in the game because I look at it almost like they're just giving a dog a bone. Give him his shots early, and then let Fin and Dirk take over. I will agree with you again that he does need to play better defense and get his ass on the boards. I include him when I say that the post defense needs to improve. That means, him, Bradley and Booth!!!! Last night was unacceptable IMO.

There you go again with the Finley not passing to Dirk. Let me tell you why you're SO wrong about that. What you're telling me is before Juwan, Finley passed to everyone else but Dirk. Except the problem with that is, Fin is the second leading scorer only to Dirk on the team. So how in the HELL can you explain the guy who is second on the team in assists also refuses to give the ball to the leading scorer on the team. When the ball is not in Dirk or Nash's hand that means it's in Fin's hands. He's not the leading scorer on the team, which means he probably passes the ball every now and then.(I'm saying this sarcastically) So when he passes the ball, there is a STRONG and I mean STRONG possibility he's passing it often to Dirk!!!! Other people were not scoring enough for him to have as many assist as he's had that he could have been "freezing" Dirk out. That makes no sense. There would be MANY other high scorers on the team if that's the case. Or there would be many other shots going up from other players. So you need to leave that alone all ready!

Mavinator
04-11-2001, 01:01 PM
Arrrg. You do not sit one of your best players, a topnotch point guard, and a floor leader because he has a bad game or two in a row. Nash is a GREAT point guard, better than Eisley in every way concievable, but he is young. He is young and has missed a lot of games due to injury, so he is not a fully developed point guard... he is not Jason Kidd. When he is double-teamed early when he has the ball, that throws him off of the game he has played all year... it is not easy to find the open man when you're being double-teamed, especially when you're a young, and though extremely talented, fairly inexperienced point guard. Give him the rest of the regular season, and he'll learn how to stop that double team...

I know y'all will hate me for saying this, but Finley needs to take more crazy out-of-control fadeaway jumpers. He sinks those like a madman. When he drives to the basket, he turns over the ball half the time. He is not a good ballhandler.

Dirk definitely needs a lot more touches, and he just needs to play however he feels comfortable playing... its not our place to dictate HIS game. Dirk just lets it come to him... 2-5 and 3-7 (really 3-6 if you take out that throwaway long-distance 3 in the 4th quater) are not bad shooting clips from 3- they are GREAT. He is not having bad games, guys, he is consistently kicking ass. Get him the ball... let him do his thing... he will score...

TheKid
04-11-2001, 02:39 PM
Well I'm not an advocate for Nash sitting, but I'm an advocate for him playing better. He needs to get healthy, so if sitting him the next few games is what it takes then do it!!! An unhealthy Nash won't do us much good in the playoffs. That's the good of what I have to say..

Now clear some stuff up for me. If Nash is being doubled team, and Dirk is being doubled team and Fin is also being doubled team, how many people are playing against them? I heard today someone say Fin gets doubled team, I heard someone say Dirk is doubled team and now Nash gets doubled teamed???? That would explain why Juwan always get the ball then doesn't it. Also, Dirk not getting enough shots or getting the ball when he's suppose to, please explain how that doesn't fall on the shoulders of the point guard. If people want to give him the credit for running the team, and give him the credit for the teams ability to run, then he should get "some" of the blame when the ball is not being distributed.

Also I don't think Fin should take MORE of those crazy shots. It is amazing when he makes it, but I don't think you want him taking more of them. I don't mind him driving to the basket more, because believe it or not if he makes a habit out of it, he'll start getting the call even when he does turn the ball over. Pippen made a living off of it.

ReggieThetaChi
04-11-2001, 11:54 PM
I think Finley needs to take a cue from the great ones... Jordan, I.Thomas, Jerry West... Take the fade when its there, but drive the lane. Finley needs to get to the free throw line more often. If you noticed, Jordan made a living there in the fourth period in his career. The great players truly know how to get to the line. As soon as Finley realizes this, he will truly be not among the elite, but the elite of the 2 guards in the NBA.

Evilmav2
04-12-2001, 12:09 AM
When Finley hits those crazy jumpers, he is "Shining his light on the World". Just like in the Jordan brand commercials with Eddie Jones... The more he does that, the better...

Flying Tiger
04-12-2001, 03:06 PM
I agree. That is a sweet shot. It reminds me of His Airness himself.

LAM0015
04-12-2001, 03:42 PM
the problem is..is that finley doesn't hit near as many of his jumpers as someone like jordan. finley needs to drive more. and he needs to dish when he's in trouble.

LAM0015
04-12-2001, 03:42 PM
trust me, i think finley's a very good player....i'm not saying he's not

Flying Tiger
04-12-2001, 03:43 PM
Come on. You know the turn around, fade away, jumper is sweet.

djb
04-12-2001, 03:44 PM
It's only sweet when it goes in i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif And like LAM said, it doesn't fall nearly enough.

LAM0015
04-12-2001, 03:58 PM
my whole gripe with finley is simple. i think the key to his game is him driving to the bucket. i don't think the key to his game is his jumpshot. he relies on it too much and they don't fall enough for him to do that. he has to take it to the hole. i also think that finley gets in grooves to where he takes too many bad shots. yes, it is sweet when he shoots the turn around fade away jumper..but guess what, he doesn't hit that shot for a very good percentage. he simply takes too many forced jumpshots with people all over him. He COULD step up his game if he was more selective with his shots. no, that doesn't necessarily mean taking less shots...i'm simply saying he needs to be more selective..and he needs to drive to the hole.
the above has always been my gripe about finley. and it will until he consistently drives more often and consistently takes better percentage shots

LAM0015
04-12-2001, 04:01 PM
yes, when he makes it, it is jordanesque...but he's not jordan. he might not even be the best offensive threat on the team (which is debateable ?sp? but we don't need to argue about that right now). he doesn't make enough of the low percentage shots... he just needs to be more selective and drive to the hole more.

TheKid
04-12-2001, 04:04 PM
Did you read one of my earlier posts where I said that was my gripe with Fin and Dirk actually. When they're shot is off or they're struggling they both dry to get it going by draining long jumpshots instead of taking it to the hole. So I agree with you to a certain extent that he relies too much on his jumpshot. HOWEVER I do think that is a significant part of his success, he has to make his jumpshot. Part of it is, that was the knock against him for so long when he was coming out of college and in Phoenix. Play Finley for the drive because he won't consistently hit the jumpshot. I think he worked on his jumpshot to be a consistent jumpshooter and continues to try to prove that he can hit it.

LAM0015
04-12-2001, 04:09 PM
trust me..i know he has to continue to shoot the jumpshot.
but i think he gets away from taking it to the hole alot of games. he also settles for alot of low percentage jumpshots.

the key to finley's game should be him driving to the hole. by doing that, he'll free himself up for better looks on his jumpshot instead of forcing alot of shots.
he needs to drive more so the defense will slack and give him a bit more space so they can keep him from driving..then he needs to drill the 15-18 footer.

this year
michael finley=incosistent three point shooter.

TheKid
04-12-2001, 05:00 PM
inconsistent but still won a lot of games for them this year by hitting the three.

Flying Tiger
04-12-2001, 05:11 PM
I wasn't saying he makes the jumper all the time, even though I thought he shoots it pretty well. But I do agree that he can really get the team going when he takes it to the hole. When he drives once, he'll try to do it the next 3 or 4 offensive possesions as well. But for now, c'mon guys get off his back. He had 34 points in last night's game, and I think he is still the best player on the team. Expecially in key situations.

TheKid
04-12-2001, 05:29 PM
Oh trust me, I'm not on his back. I've been "accused" of kissing Finley's ass also, so trust me I'm not on his back. I think the guy is awesome personally.

LAM0015
04-13-2001, 08:26 AM
it's like talking to a freaking brick wall. you refuse to look at the numbers...and you refuse to look at anything other than a few buzzer beaters. i'm not saying "don't shoot the three" i'm saying, be more selective on your shots and take the damn ball to the freaking hole more often. that is it. i'm not saying that he's not a good player, because he is..that is obvious.
dirk needs to take the ball to the basket more also. howard needs to learn how to pass the damn ball when he's in trouble and he needs to learn how to rebound and play defense

TheKid
04-13-2001, 10:34 AM
No Lam, YOU'RE the brick wall. You're simply repeating what I'm saying. Everyone agrees he needs to drive more so what's the point of repeating it. The only thing I was saying is that I think ALOT of (not all and not the majority but a lot of) his three pointers come at shot clock winding down, end of the quarter, end of half, end of the game or trying to catch up. That was the reason for his low three point percentage. That's ALL I was saying.

As far as Juwan goes, everyone on this board seems to think he can rebound better and play better defense. Dirk also (as you have stated also) needs to take the ball to the hole more, so I don't see the reason for your anger.

LAM0015
04-13-2001, 10:49 AM
and i'm saying that dirk probably took a bigger majority of the three point shots with the time running out at the end of quarters earlier in the season. all i'm saying is that that isn't a valid reason for his poor three point shooting this year. i was wanted other people's opinions as to why he's shot threes poorly this year...not excuses

TheKid
04-13-2001, 11:35 AM
I COMPLETELY disagree that the majority of Dirk's shots were taken like that. That's very untrue, the majority of Dirk's three pointers come off of Nash's, Finley's or Eisley's penetration. What I'm saying is when Fin takes his the majority of the time it's when he has the ball trying to create and drive and he settles for the three point shot. The Mavericks has a play where the isolate finley and a lot of the times he'll have the ball (admittedly his own fault) and let the clock wind down and instead of driving settle for the three pointer. Dirk doesn't have an isolation play UNLESS there is a mismatch. So I completely disagree that Dirk has taken a large portion of his threes under the same duress as Finley.

LAM0015
04-13-2001, 12:36 PM
well, you're not very bright so it doesn't really matter whether or not you agree or disagree.
and i didn't say that the majority of dirk's threes were taken at the end of quarters.. i said that early in the year, dirk was taking as many or more three pointers at the ends of quarters as was finley.

you can't argue with the fact that finley has a low three point percentage. so get over it.

Big Boy Laroux
04-13-2001, 01:38 PM
I love lamo's arguing style...

"you're wrong, i'm right, you're stupid! waa-waa!"

Evilmav2
04-13-2001, 01:43 PM
LOL BBL...

TheKid
04-13-2001, 01:52 PM
Lam you're just a fuckin ass that's all it is to it. You keep saying stuff no one is arguing. "you can't argue with the fact that finley has a low three point percentage" I never said he didn't have a low three point percentage so who gives a shit about it. I was telling you IN MY OPINION WHY he does! So if you don't like my opinion fine. As far as YOUR ASSININE opinion about me not being bright, that's fine with me, I don't give a shit about your opinion either way, but I can listen to someone's opinion without having to tell them their stupid, you're the one who looks like the fool sounding like a child.

Oh and by the way, you are Assinine that is a fact!!

Mavinator
04-13-2001, 04:18 PM
The only reason Fin's 3PT percentage is so low is because of a whole heck of a lot of forced shots during Steve Nash's absence... and that is a fact, brought to you by a season-long statistic-watcher, Mavinator...

LAM0015
04-13-2001, 04:20 PM
mavinator...finley's 3 point percentage was horrible before nash missed any games. so your point is invalid. try again

Mavinator
04-13-2001, 04:22 PM
No it wasn't- earlier in the season Fin was up in the upper 30's...

LAM0015
04-13-2001, 04:45 PM
No, you're dead wrong.

during the first 37 games (in which steve nash played in 35), michael finley was 29 for 101 from three point land.
finley only hit 28.7128712%

this is through january 10th..after that time, nash only played in 10 of the next 14 games.


through the first 1/4 of the season (which, for all intensive purposes is the 20th game), michael finley shot 27.4509803% from three point land (14-51)

through the first 1/3 of the season (which is through roughly the first 27 games), finley shot 23.2876712% from three point land (17-73)

LAM0015
04-13-2001, 04:46 PM
but i'm glad he's got his touch back a bit towards the end of the season

Mavinator
04-13-2001, 05:58 PM
Oops, you got me- I must've been remembering wrong...

LAM0015
04-14-2001, 01:31 AM
it's ok..just as long as you're willing to admit when you're wrong.